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rms2
02-13-2021, 11:12 PM
Let me say that it really doesn't matter to me whether the steppe or Yamnaya people who formed the bulk of the original Corded Ware population came from the Dnieper originally or from the Dniester or whatever.

If they came from the banks of the Dnieper, I think it much more likely they went straight west across the Ukrainian steppe and into Małopolska than that they went all the way north up into heavily forested Belarus before heading west.

It seems to me Małopolska was central in the formation of Corded Ware.

I could be wrong though. Maybe I am putting too much stock in what Linderholm wrote about the CWC-X horizon and those supposed CWC-X horizon burials (3000-2900 BC) at Hubinek in Małopolska.

MitchellSince1893
02-13-2021, 11:24 PM
Doesn’t matter to me either. I’m just throwing out ideas. Could be Budzhak up the Bug or Dniester or Sredni Stog descendants up the Dnieper, or some other group up the Don or Donets.

To me it doesn’t seem Kurgan Yamnaya up the Danube route is as likely.

But whatever route they took, it’s highly likely it was via a River beginning with the letter “D”

rms2
02-13-2021, 11:35 PM
Doesn’t matter to me either. I’m just throwing out ideas. Could be Budzhak up the Bug or Dniester or Sredni Stog descendants up the Dnieper, or some other group up the Don or Donets.

To me it doesn’t seem Kurgan Yamnaya up the Danube route is as likely.

But whatever route they took, it’s highly likely it was via a River beginning with the letter “D”

I agree with you that it probably wasn't the up-the-Danube folks, but we could get a big surprise if Reich and company or whoever ever cracks open some of those thousands of kurgans and gets some ancient DNA from the skeletons inside them.

We're all expecting a solid block of Z2103, but I remember when everyone expected Yamnaya to be all R1a and Corded Ware to be all R1a.

rms2
02-14-2021, 12:09 AM
If Budzhak is a little older than the ~2800 BC date Ivanova gives for its early phase, it could be the variety of Yamnaya that went into the original formation of Corded Ware. Sorry for repeating myself on that, but I was just thinking about the fact that many Budzhak burials were a lot like Corded Ware and later Beaker burials, and Budzhak people were descendants of Mikhailovka and Kemi-Oba people, and the burial rites of those cultures were a lot like Corded Ware and Beaker burial rites.

From Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language, pages 269-271:



Most Mikhailovka I kurgans were low mounds of black earth covered by a layer of clay, surrounded by a ditch and a stone cromlech, often with an opening on the southwest side. The graves frequently were in cists lined with stone slabs. The body could be in an extended supine position or contracted on the side or supine with raised knees, although the most common pose was contracted on the side. Occasionally (e.g., Olaneshti, k. 2, gr. 1, on the lower Dniester) the grave was covered by a stone anthropomorphic stela - a large stone slab carved at the top into the shape of a head projecting above rounded shoulders (see figure 13.11). This was the beginning of a long and important North Pontic tradition of decorating some graves with carved stone stelae.

From Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans, pages 203-205:



The third major Ukrainian cultural entity of the earlier Eneolithic is the Lower Mikhaylovka-Kemi Oba culture which spans the region between the lower Dnieper and the Crimea. The lower Dnieper variant, the Lower Mikhaylovka culture, synchronizes roughly with the later part of the Sredny Stog culture, while the Kemi Oba culture of the Crimea extends into the later Eneolithic.

. . . Burials and associated rituals have attracted special attention. The burials are placed in low mounds (kurgans) and the presence of stone rings, cromlechs, is frequently noted. Hearths have been discovered built on top of the kurgans, on their periphery or within the burial pit itself. Grave goods are rare but may include pottery, copper awls or shell ornaments.

One of the more striking recent discoveries of the Lower Mikhaylovka group is the existence of altars or offering places. Beneath a kurgan at Kalanchak was found a circular area on which lay the fractured remains of an anthropomorphic stone stela with traces of ochre; potsherds; and animal bones. Similar deposits have been found elsewhere.

To the south, in the Crimea, are the remains of the Kemi Oba culture which is primarily represented by small cemeteries. Besides those features which are similar to the Lower Mikhaylovka group, for example, kurgans, cromlechs, eastern orientation, and so forth, there are several other features of considerable interest. A number of tombs which have been built as stone cists have included painted ornament on the walls.

MitchellSince1893
02-14-2021, 12:21 AM
If it turns out to be the Danube, L52 didn’t leave much of a present day foot print in the Balkan section of that River. Your old Tisza route option would remedy that issue by skipping that section.

rms2
02-14-2021, 12:27 AM
If it turns out to be the Danube, L52 didn’t leave much of a present day foot print in the Balkan section of that River. Your old Tisza route option would remedy that issue by skipping that section.

Oh, yeah. I don't really expect that our ancestors came that way, but you never know.

If they kept on going they wouldn't have left much of a footprint, just as there isn't much of an L51 footprint on the steppe today.

I really think the main pathway for our crew was up the Dniester valley and into Małopolska, or across the Ukrainian steppe from the Dnieper to Małopolska, or a combination of those things.

Right now I think Małopolska was the gateway to the West for our Y-DNA ancestors.

MitchellSince1893
02-14-2021, 12:33 AM
Even the Lewis and Clark expedition left a genetic foot print along the Missouri
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.voanews.com/archive/sex-lives-lewis-and-clark-expedition-provides-instructive-angle-journey-2004-02-23%3famp

rms2
02-14-2021, 12:46 AM
Even the Lewis and Clark expedition left a genetic foot print along the Missouri
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.voanews.com/archive/sex-lives-lewis-and-clark-expedition-provides-instructive-angle-journey-2004-02-23%3famp

A tiny footprint.

rms2
02-14-2021, 01:43 AM
I'd kind of like to turn from the origin of Corded Ware, apparently in the CWC-X horizon, to the subject of Single Grave Corded Ware in the Netherlands, North Germany, and Denmark. The promise of a new ancient DNA research paper on SGC (Single Grave Culture) that could drop any day now is something that fills me with hope, given the following post (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/12/looking-forward-to-post-covid-19-world.html) from the author of the Eurogenes Blog, as well as rumors I have heard from other pretty good sources.



Looking forward to a post-Covid world

I was hoping that the Covid-19 pandemic wouldn't have an immediate impact on the publication of ancient DNA papers and new data, but considering how much things have slowed down in this respect, it seems that I was fooling myself.

So let's take a break until early next year, and then see what happens.

Trust me, we've got a lot to look forward to in the post-Covid-19 world. Based on what I've heard from various sources, here are some predictions about what we might see:

- the search for the Proto-Indo-European homeland will shift west to the North Pontic steppe

- on the other hand, the search for the Proto-Uralic homeland will move deep into Siberia

- the key role of the Single Grave (westernmost Corded Ware) culture in the population history of Western Europe will finally get some attention

- following on from the above, Y-haplogroup R1b-L51 will be revealed as a Single Grave marker

- the idea that the Pontic-Caspian steppe was colonized by migrants from Mesopotamia during the Bronze Age will be forgotten, and, ironically, we'll instead learn that there was a significant influx of steppe ancestry into ancient Mesopotamia

- Old Kingdom Egyptians will come out less Sub-Saharan African than present-day Egyptians.

I probably shouldn't blab everything out, so that's all you're getting from me for now. You'll just have to wait for the rest until next year, or perhaps even the year after that.

So, can we talk about SGC, or should I start a separate thread on it?

A good start is this passage from pages 469-470 of Janusz Czebreszuk's "Corded Ware From East to West" (in Bogucki and Crabtree, editors, Ancient Europe):



Single Grave Culture.

Research into the Single Grave culture played a key role in the course of research into the whole of Corded Ware. On its basis, a typology of basic Corded Ware objects and finds was worked out. The Single Grave culture is known mainly for graves covered by barrows, in which one individual was laid in the fetal position on an eastwest axis. In addition to the barrow burial rite introduced by the Single Grave culture, other types of tombs (mainly megalithic) dating to a previous time in prehistory were still being used by this group. The grave goods in the burials became standardized. The constant elements were the battle-axe and the beaker. In addition, flint axes were placed in the graves along with flint flakes and amber objects, among which the most spectacular are disks several centimeters in diameter with a central hole. There are few visible traces of settlements, though it is thought that there was significant progress in this regard during the Single Grave era. Dwellings were being built in the form of post houses of a light construction. The basic method of subsistence was the raising of livestock (especially cattle). Pollen diagrams indicate that open areas (pastures) increased as forest was cleared. In the pollen diagrams there is no indication of an increase in grain cultivation. During the development of the Single Grave culture, the practice of making sacrifices by depositing artifacts in swamps continued from previous cultures.

Because of its significance in the Dutch Model of Beakerology, it might be well to include Czebreszuk's description of an important subdivision of SGC, from page 470 of the same work:



Protruding Foot Beaker Culture.

The Protruding Foot Beaker culture is the best-known part of the Corded Ware story. It is found along the Lower Rhine, in a key place for long-range contacts between the British Isles and the Alpine area, as well as along the Atlantic shore to the Baltic Sea. There exists an accurate typology of its basic object: the beaker. Much is known about the culture’s settlements. To assure proper living conditions (that is, a dry place on the wet landscape of the Rhine Delta), permanent settlements were built on artificial platforms consisting of layers of shells, organic remains, and clay. The dwellings were rectangular huts of post construction. The funeral rites were characterized by the presence of flat graves as well as barrows, in which according to the Corded Ware custom, only one individual was laid. The Protruding Foot Beaker culture is also important because in 1955 Johannes D. van der Waals and Willem Glasbergen were able to demonstrate stylistic links that its beakers shared with the Bell Beakers. This became a basis for one of the main models for the genesis of the Bell Beakers called the “Dutch Model.”

rms2
02-14-2021, 04:28 AM
I know I said I wanted to turn from the origin of Corded Ware to a discussion of SGC, but I just noticed something and thought I would mention it regarding the central importance of Małopolska in the Corded Ware origins story.

Evidently both of the two oldest Corded Ware burial sites, both dated to the CWC-X horizon period, 3000-2900 BC, are in Małopolska. I mentioned the one at Hubinek already, but evidently the second one is at Średnia in Małopolska. Evidently no other Corded Ware burials are near as old as those two.

Czebreszuk mentions Średnia on page 468 of his "Corded Ware from East to West", and Piotr Włodarczak mentions it and Hubinek on page 190 of his 2018 paper, "Chronometry of the Final Eneolithic Cemeteries at Święte, Jarosław District" (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 23).



The central burial from a barrow in Hubinek also yielded a 14C date from the 3000-2900 BC range [Juras et al. 2018]. In this case, the burial rite recorded in the site suggests associating the grave with the older wave of migrations from the North Pontic steppe/forest steppe area.

Accepting the results for barrow 1 at Średnia as correct, one should assume a long duration of the earliest CWC phase in south-eastern Poland: from around 3000/2900 BC to ca. 2600 BC (as suggested by dendrochronology) or to ca. 2700 BC (assuming that the youngest among barrow graves can be assigned to a later phase, defined as “Central European horizon” for example).

Here is what Anna Linderholm said about Hubinek again from pages 2-3 of the Linderholm et al (2020) Supplementary Information:



At the same time, the possibility that steppe communities dispersed into Małopolska regions was indicated - starting from the turn of the fourth and third millennium BCE. This phenomenon, called the "CWC-X horizon" [10, 13, 14], would precede the rather static formalisation of the CWC barrow ritual, i.e. the A horizon. Until recently, this was only a theoretical idea. Recently, this has been confirmed with the discovery of graves with skeletons coloured with ochre in burials at site 2 in Hubinek, dated to 3000-2900 BCE [15]: supplement; see also [16]. The barrow burials of the older phase of the CWC - both from Małopolska and from other regions of Europe - have not been the subject of archaeogenetic research so far.

Czebreszuk also mentions a CW burial at Krusza Zamkowa in Kujavia in north central Poland as among the oldest, but Włodarczak says on page 190 of his paper (above) that the rc date for that one has been updated and revised to 2800-2600 BC, so within the typical range for Corded Ware:


An interesting contribution to the revision of chronology of horizon A graves was the renewed dating of the burial from Krusza Zamkowa in Kuyavia, which corrected the previous determination and set the age of the burial at the above-mentioned range of 2800-2600 BC [Goslar, Kośko 2011].

razyn
02-14-2021, 12:22 PM
So, can we talk about SGC, or should I start a separate thread on it?
...
Because of its significance in the Dutch Model of Beakerology, it might be well to include Czebreszuk's description of an important subdivision of SGC, from page 470 of the same work:


Protruding Foot Beaker Culture.

The Protruding Foot Beaker culture is the best-known part of the Corded Ware story. It is found along the Lower Rhine, in a key place for long-range contacts between the British Isles and the Alpine area, as well as along the Atlantic shore to the Baltic Sea.
...

The Protruding Foot Beaker culture is also important because in 1955 Johannes D. van der Waals and Willem Glasbergen were able to demonstrate stylistic links that its beakers shared with the Bell Beakers. This became a basis for one of the main models for the genesis of the Bell Beakers called the “Dutch Model.”

I played with your post a bit, because what I want to emphasize from the 2003 paper by Janusz Czebreszuk differs a little from what you had emphasized (with boldface). Namely, that a cultural horizon [found, archaeologically] from the lower Rhine to the Baltic is not "Dutch." And its access to the Alps via the Rhine (if you happen to find yourself in its westernmost fringes) is not automatically more, nor less, significant than its access to Malopolska via the Vistula. Or to the Saxony-Anhalt area via the Elbe (remember Quedlinburg?). And maybe to Sweden via some handy port in Jutland.

The SGC part of Corded Ware was wide, and deep, and maritime/riparian. And some of it, indeed, was on the lower Rhine -- more handy to the Alps, or to Ireland, than to some of its other ports, pastures, and products.

rms2
02-14-2021, 01:49 PM
Of course, I never said Protruding Foot Beaker was Dutch (I know you weren't accusing me of saying that), although part of it was, only that the analysis of its beakers (quoting Czebreszuk) formed the basis for the Dutch Model of Bell Beaker origins. I put the part about the Dutch Model in bold to emphasize the likely role of PFB in the rise of Bell Beaker (and I think the Dutch Model is closest to right).

SGC was the superset of which Protruding Foot Beaker was a subset. As you noted, SGC was spread across a wider area than PFB. PFB was mainly a Lower Rhine/North Sea/Baltic coast phenomenon.

For Beaker, especially British Beaker, the Lower Rhine area is probably most important.

I wonder if there will be any PFB DNA in the upcoming paper on SGC. I hope so.

rms2
02-14-2021, 02:25 PM
Sorry to jump around, but a couple of posts back I mentioned that the Corded Ware burial site at Średnia is one of the two oldest Corded Ware burial sites thus far known (along with Hubinek, also in Małopolska). It's interesting that Piotr Włodarczak says the Średnia site is part of the same SE Polish concentration of Corded Ware burial sites in the eastern part of the Rzeszów Foothills that includes the burials at Święte, Mirocin, and Szczytna. That's interesting because Corded Ware burials at Święte, Mirocin, and Szczytna recently yielded up Y-DNA R1b, some of it R1b-L51 (some of it only got as far as M269 and L23). Those burials are several centuries more recent than the ones at Średnia (and Hubinek), but it is interesting nonetheless.

This is from page 53 of Piotr Włodarczak's paper, "Święte 11: Cemetery of the Corded Ware Culture" (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 23):



Located in the Lower San Valley, the cemetery complex in Święte and Skołoszów is part of the broader concentration of CWC sites in the eastern part of the Rzeszów Foothills (together with sites 5 and 6 in Szczytna, 24 and 27 in Mirocin, 26 in Chłopice and the barrow in Morawsko). The nearby barrow sites from the Dynów Foothills (Średnia and Wola Węgierska) should be considered part of the above group – despite of certain distinct traits of the ceramic ware discovered there [Machnik 1998; 2001; 2011].

rms2
02-14-2021, 04:22 PM
Here's something interesting, at least to me. I mentioned the Corded Ware burials at Święte, Mirocin, and Szczytna that recently yielded up Y-DNA R1b, some of it R1b-L51 (again, some of it only got as far as M269 and L23). All of those, and one of the three at Łubcze, also in Małopolska in SE Poland, were niche burials, that is, the bodies were placed in pre-existing mounds. The 30-40-year-old male in the one at Łubcze was R1b-M269. The other two from Łubcze, two male toddlers, were together in their own mound. They were both R1b-L52.

Anyway, here's what Linderholm says about those niche burials, on page 5 of the Supplementary Information (Linderholm et al, “Corded Ware cultural complexity uncovered using genomic and isotopic analysis from south-eastern Poland”, 2020):



The burials of CWC individuals in niche graves (16) do not correspond to the (hypothetical) oldest wave of the CWC phase with the assumed migration of pastoral communities from Eastern Europe (generally labelled the "A-horizon" or "Pan-European"). However, they are related to the second, separate phase (or "wave") of eastern influences, taking place around 2600-2500 BCE along the border zone between the forest and forest-steppe, and areas of Volhynia and Podolia towards Małopolska. The absolute dating of the burials analysed here correspond to the age of graves from other regions (including Central Germany or Polish lowland), from which burials have already been archaeogenomically studied. In this context, a certain genetic distinction of the Małopolska population from CWC individuals from other regions may be important. It is expressed by the repeatability of the Y-chromosomal R1b group in Małopolska materials, which has not been found in other regions of Central Europe but is present in the environment of Yamnaya and Catacombnaya steppe societies. The carried out comparative analyses indicated the closeness of the genetic pool of the Małopolska CWC and the Afanasievo culture. This challenging correlation, however correlates with archaeological conceptions assuming the eastern genesis of Catacombnaya culture, its significant influence on the formation of Middle Dnieper culture and then the expansion towards the west. Its consequence could be a modification of the gene pool, changed initially by the first migrations of the steppe communities towards the west. Both the published here and earlier results for BBC burials from Małopolska [27] indicate the presence of "steppe" haplogroups (including Y R1b).

This doesn't necessarily mean the males in those niche burials were from the Middle Dnieper culture or were descendants of men who came from the Middle Dnieper culture, but it is interesting.

Speaking of Podolia and that second wave of eastern influences on Małopolska, here is a map from Piotr Włodarczak's recent paper, "Kurgan Rites in the Eneolithic and Early Bronze Age Podolia in Light of Materials From the Funerary-Ceremonial Centre at Yampil" (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 22, 2017):

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Kind of a helpful map in that it shows where Budzhak Yamnaya was originally and how one can take the Prut and Dniester valleys straight up into Corded Ware territory. The headwaters of the Dniester are in the Carpathian foothills of NW Ukraine just short of the border of Małopolska.

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rms2
02-14-2021, 05:16 PM
Sorry to post so much in this thread, but this is a really interesting topic to me, and we're kind of iced-and-snowed-in here where I live right now, so there's not a lot else to do.

Anyway, I wanted to post one more little quote from the Linderholm et al Supplementary Information, page 2. It seems kind of significant to me.



The scientific value of the Małopolska finds has been enhanced by the increased number graves discovered during planned archaeological research, a relatively good preservation of skeletons - enabling the application of many types of specialist analyses, and the exceptionally rich grave equipment. The particular features of the funeral rituals included finds from various regions. In the case of Małopolska, however, their distinctive connection with the rituality of the communities living in the North-Pontic steppe/forest-steppe zone is noteworthy and of special significance for the present study.

J Man
02-14-2021, 05:23 PM
The Single Grave Culture certainly does seem like a very good candidate for the spread of R1b-L51 and the autosomal Steppe component throughout Western Europe. Is the SGC the only candidate though?

TigerMW
02-14-2021, 05:35 PM
...
The SGC part of Corded Ware was wide, and deep, and maritime/riparian. And some of it, indeed, was on the lower Rhine -- more handy to the Alps, or to Ireland, than to some of its other ports, pastures, and products.
Do we have any evidence of what kinds of boats SGC used? or for that matter Budzhak? Budzhak is right on Black Sea.

alan
02-14-2021, 07:49 PM
The Single Grave Culture certainly does seem like a very good candidate for the spread of R1b-L51 and the autosomal Steppe component throughout Western Europe. Is the SGC the only candidate though?

I think its the front runner by a distance now. The only other options I can think of also involve variants of CW. I suppose some model of a CW group moving along the northern fringes of the Carpathians and Alps westwards, perhaps prospecting, could be rational. There is CW L151 in Czech and Switzerland which is in that basic sort of zone and the later cousinly L51-L52 group in Poland also arrived in the upland zone of southern Poland. So you could make an argument for a group of metal-source-interested L51 people heading along the northern fringes of the Carpathians and Alps looking for a more northerly or westerly metal source. But on the other hand the Rhine and the Elbe make it possible for groups to travel between the north coast and the mountains, perhaps even seasonally to prospect. I dont think yet its an absolute certainty as to how L51 spread. It remains possible, given its age, that L151 split into two groups taking different routes too. I dont think this will be proven for certain one way or another without a series of sample that at least define L151 and preferably also U106 and P312. Rumour is that the Czech CW guy is P312 too so that'd give pause for thought.But then again the total lack of U106 in beaker suggests that until the post-beaker era U106 was confined further east than Holland or Germany.

alan
02-14-2021, 07:54 PM
Do we have any evidence of what kinds of boats SGC used? or for that matter Budzhak? Budzhak is right on Black Sea.

influence of northern CW groups could cross from Denmark to the Danish Islands and I am pretty sure Furholts network map for early CW shows connections that look maritime including Denmark-Sweden and Baltic-Denmark
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razyn
02-14-2021, 08:15 PM
Do we have any evidence of what kinds of boats SGC used? or for that matter Budzhak? Budzhak is right on Black Sea.

Closest I know of are Bronze Age, but a little too late -- three Ferriby Boats, and the Dover Boat. There have been attempts to reproduce, and test for seaworthiness (not very successfully), both of those models. Here's a blog entry about the Ferriby one: http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/23809

I've also seen a Bronze Age log boat with side planks added (sewn on), excavated from river silt in France. It was displayed temporarily in the Dijon archaeological museum when I visited there in 2011. Maybe 8-10 meters long, probably a bit small for the open sea. It was poorly preserved, but better than nothing. If I can find the museum brochure it should tell more detail than I recall -- such as which river it came from. [edit: I found the printed museum guide, but it didn't include that boat because it was a temporary installment, belonging to another organization.]

There is the usual "absence of evidence" problem, common to wooden or other organic materials after several thousand years. It isn't evidence of absence; there may have been many such boats, as there may have been many R1b-L51 guys paddling, poling or sailing them. We have yet to find them, though.

alan
02-14-2021, 08:45 PM
influence of northern CW groups could cross from Denmark to the Danish Islands and I am pretty sure Furholts network map for early CW shows connections that look maritime including Denmark-Sweden and Baltic-Denmark
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I understand that despite the lack of surviving boats, some early oars exist that are of the long very narrow type suitable for the resistance of waves in open sea journeys that would be impossible with wider paddles. I think they go back to the Neolithic - which confusingly in Scandianvian terms includes the 3rd millennium BC and even the start of the 2nd. There are all those Scandi boat rock carvings/hieroglyphs too although my sketchy understanding is they are 2nd millennium BC bronze age boats. https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/12825328.pdf

dsm
02-14-2021, 09:38 PM
I understand that despite the lack of surviving boats, some early oars exist that are of the long very narrow type suitable for the resistance of waves in open sea journeys that would be impossible with wider paddles. I think they go back to the Neolithic - which confusingly in Scandianvian terms includes the 3rd millennium BC and even the start of the 2nd. There are all those Scandi boat rock carvings/hieroglyphs too although my sketchy understanding is they are 2nd millennium BC bronze age boats. https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/12825328.pdf

There are finds of log boats dating back well over 4000BCE. A particular location for really old finds is Stralsund which is just opposite the bottom of Sweden and in Baltic Nth Germany. Stralsund eventually became a major trading port and part of the much later Hanseatic League of trading ports (as was PL: Gdansk (DE: Danzig)) which are also in old Pomerania. Look on a map for Rostock, Stralsund is just to its right.

Stralsund (Pomerania) >4,000 BCE
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Stralsund-Mischwasserspeicher-Detail-of-logboat-2The-position-of-a-fire-place-is-marked_fig4_263238670


Full PDF Document link of the oldest Stralsund finds:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263238670_The_Terminal_Mesolithic_and_Early_Neolit hic_log_boats_of_Stralsund-Mischwasserspeicher_Hansestadt_Stralsund_Fpl_225_E vidence_of_early_waterborne_transport_on_the_Germa n_Southern_Baltic_coast/download


EXTRACT FROM THE STRALSUND PDF:
"Some oak trunks from the Atlantic period have been found in a peat layer together with archaeological
artefacts from flint, antler, bone and wood. The material belongs to the terminal Mesolithic phase of Ertebřlle Culture
dating from 5000 to 4700 B.C. The most important findings are two dugout canoes lying side
by side (logboat 2 and 3). Above the peat, there were marine sand and mud layers again with terminal
Meso lithic flint and bone artefacts. A third cultural layer, wherein a third logboat (logboat 1) was found
belongs to the early Neolithic Funnel Beaker Culture. Extraordinary well preserved, these three up to 12m
long dugout canoes are the only complete Stone Age logboats of the German Baltic coast to date."

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Lithuania - around 2,800 BCE
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/radiocarbon/article/abs/ancient-logboats-in-lithuania-new-finds-wood-taxa-and-chronology/A6A4BD86F369D42D3F0DF49FCF63F2F3

EXTRACT re Lithuania:
"Special attention is paid to the logboat found at Šventoji 58, which is at present the oldest 14C-dated (2895–2640 cal BC) logboat found East of the Baltic Sea."

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Bronze Age Log Boats Scandinavia (incl pictures:
https://www.hakaimagazine.com/news/uncovering-culture-bronze-age-logboats/

EXTRACT from Bronze Age Logboats:
"When people first took to the water, it’s likely they did so in boats carved from the trunks of large trees. The first “logboats” are thought to predate both pottery and agriculture by thousands of years. Their invention opened up new lands to settlement and made long distance travel easier, but during the Bronze Age, which lasted from roughly 2000 to 500 BCE in Northern Europe, logboats began to change. According to archaeologist Ole Thirup Kastholm, of Denmark’s Roskilde Museum, the changing boat designs were a symptom—and reflection—of the broader cultural transformations that were sweeping across the continent.

During the Bronze Age, early European societies were beginning to exchange goods and ideas across the continent. Fueled by a demand for tin and copper—the base metals needed to smelt bronze—massive trade networks began to grow. “Some trading networks went as far as from the North to the Mediterranean,” says Kastholm.

A logboat unearthed in eastern Denmark in 1973, showing the prominent horizontal ridges in the boat’s interior. Photo courtesy of the Museum South East Denmark

Examining 110 logboats recovered from the water-saturated sediments of archaeological sites in Scandinavia, western Europe, Britain, and Ireland, Kastholm says that starting around 2000 BCE logboats from across this vast region began to pick up similarities in design.

Many of the similarities were practical: the logs were carved to have slender, vertical sides and flat bottoms—box-like hulls that made them more stable in water. Many of the boats were more than 10 meters long, and some were as long as 15 meters. One boat from Norway, measuring 11 meters long, is estimated to have been able to carry between 500 and 800 kilograms of people and cargo."

**************************

More recent (1,000 BCE) "Stone ships show signs of maritime network in Baltic Sea region 3,000 years ago"
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130321082359.htm
EXTRACT:
"In the middle of the Bronze Age, around 1000 BC, the amount of metal objects increased dramatically in the Baltic Sea region. Around the same time, a new type of stone monument, arranged in the form of ships, started to appear along the coasts. New research shows that the stone ships were built by maritime groups."

*****************************

COMMENTS:
The above is certainly more recent but showing the evolution of boating and trading in the Baltic. This area was no backwater even as far back as 5,000 ybp (3,000 BCE). Trade was strong. The Amber recovered on the Baltic coasts of Lithuania-Latvia & Nth Poland was being traded for 1000s of years. Graves in the Volosovo Culture (3,700-2,900 BCE) show evidence of worked amber that came from the Baltic. This trade is most likely to have employed log-boats travelling from Lake Ladoga and onto the Volga and the area of the Volosovo which has its centre around Nizny-Novgorod on the Volga.

rms2
02-14-2021, 09:57 PM
Do we have any evidence of what kinds of boats SGC used? or for that matter Budzhak? Budzhak is right on Black Sea.

On page 89 of her paper, "Connections Between the Budzhak Culture and Central European Groups of the Corded Ware Culture" (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 18, 2013), Svetlana Ivanova mentions a Budzhak boat burial (the boat was placed over the top of the grave's stone slab roof structure) at Semenovka on the Black Sea coast. She supplies a drawing of it on page 118:

43313

Ivanova calls it a "boat-like construction", so it may have been a model of a boat specially built simply for burial purposes rather than wasting a perfectly serviceable real boat.

TigerMW
02-14-2021, 10:38 PM
On page 89 of her paper, "Connections Between the Budzhak Culture and Central European Groups of the Corded Ware Culture" (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 18, 2013), Svetlana Ivanova mentions a Budzhak boat burial (the boat was placed over the top of the grave's stone slab roof structure) at Semenovka on the Black Sea coast. She supplies a drawing of it on page 118:

43313

Ivanova calls it a "boat-like construction", so it may have been a model of a boat specially built simply for burial purposes rather than wasting a perfectly serviceable real boat.
It looks like some kind of plank construction. That's good as it could have more stability than a burnt out log or some narrow canoe.
The earliest they I could find in the Late Neolithic in the Netherlands area was a good sized burnt out log. (Edit: DSM may be pointing to it)
Maybe the newcomers had better construction methods? - more engineering focused. If they were good builders they could figure out how to make good boats and gain command of seafaring.

rms2
02-14-2021, 10:45 PM
It looks like some kind of plank construction. That's good as it could have more stability than a burnt out log or some narrow canoe.
The earliest they I could find in the Late Neolithic in the Netherlands area was a good sized burnt out log. (Edit: DSM may be pointing to it)
Maybe the newcomers had better construction methods? - more engineering focused. If they were good builders they could figure out how to make good boats and gain command of seafaring.

I don't know, but I'm guessing the boat or model boat on top of that Budzhak kurgan at Semenovka is an indication that Budzhak people were pretty adept at boat building and navigating the Black Sea, at least its coastal waters, and nearby rivers, like the Dniester.

Probably the man in that grave was a fisherman and liked his boats, which is why his kinfolk put a boat, or a model of a boat, on top of his grave. I'll bet there were many more such graves in that region, but probably the wooden boats have rotted away without a trace. It's amazing at least enough of that one survived for archaeologists to be able to tell what it was.

dsm
02-14-2021, 10:58 PM
It looks like some kind of plank construction. That's good as it could have more stability than a burnt out log or some narrow canoe.
The earliest they I could find in the Late Neolithic in the Netherlands area was a good sized burnt out log. (Edit: DSM may be pointing to it)
Maybe the newcomers had better construction methods? - more engineering focused. If they were good builders they could figure out how to make good boats and gain command of seafaring.

What makes the Black Sea so interesting is that the water level rose markedly over time and has hidden a lot of the old costal villages and their evidence of boats. This doc covers some of the changes which seem mostly pre Bronze Age but, still impacted the Black Sea coast esp Romania & Bulgaria -

Abstract
"The Black Sea is recognised as having great potential for the preservation of submerged prehistoric sites because of the large area of land exposed on the continental shelf at lowest sea levels, especially along its western and north-western coastlines. However, very few have been discovered to date, and those that are known are located in Bulgaria. Because of the complexities associated with the periodic isolation of the Black Sea from the Mediterranean and its reconnection, offshore research has tended to focus on geological and geophysical investigation of inundation history, with unresolved and strongly held disagreements about the timing and rapidity of sea level rise at the end of the Last Glacial and its potential human impact. In Bulgaria, a rich concentration of underwater prehistoric sites has been discovered, thanks to dredging activities earlier in the twentieth century and a long tradition of underwater archaeological investigations going back to the 1970s. These demonstrate the presence of substantial in situ village settlements of Eneolithic and Early Bronze Age date in shallow water (<10 m), with excellent preservation of large ceramic assemblages, wooden structures and faunal and palynological data on palaeodiet and palaeoeconomy. More recently, large-scale marine-geological and archaeological projects have begun, aimed at integrating shallow-water inshore investigations with offshore survey in deeper water."

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-37367-2_20


EXTRACT #1
"Given the extent of the submerged landscapes around the Black Sea, especially in the west and the north, and the complex history of sea-level change, an investigation of their potential to preserve prehistoric sites is compelling. The coast of Bulgaria is of central importance in such an investigation. It has a relatively wide continental shelf, c. 40–50 km in width, which would have exposed substantial areas of habitable territory at low sea-level stands. It is close to the main pathways of cultural connection between Anatolia and Europe via the Sea of Marmara to the south and the Danube River basin to the north. Most importantly, it is the only country with a Black Sea coastline that has produced unquestionable evidence for the preservation of underwater prehistoric settlements associated with submerged palaeoshorelines (for a recent summary, see Peev and Slavchev 2018)."

EXTRACT #2
The earliest Neolithic cultures known in Bulgaria appear at about 6500 cal BC and have obvious affinities with the Neolithic in Anatolia (Table 20.1; Boyadziev 1995; Todorova 1995). The distribution of sites is concentrated along the major river systems in central, western and northern Bulgaria, and there is almost no evidence of settlement in the Black Sea coastal region until the Eneolithic (Chalcolithic) period. As for the Mesolithic period, so too for the Neolithic period, there is the question of a possible Neolithic presence on now-submerged territory, which might account for the rarity of Early and Middle Neolithic sites in the coastal region. However, no submerged settlements have yet been found earlier than the Eneolithic period, possibly because sites of earlier date lie at a greater depth than the underwater sites found so far and are buried under a greater thickness of riverine and lacustrine sediments.

EXTRACT #3
The Eneolithic period is marked by the appearance of the Varna culture in the coastal region of NE Bulgaria, famous for its evidence of copper mining, fortified dwellings, palaces and shrines and its large cemeteries, notably at Varna, dated at 4650–4450 cal BC, and Durankulak, with 294 and 1204 graves, respectively (Todorova 1995, Higham et al. 2007). The burial evidence indicates differences of social rank with the individuals of highest status associated with rich grave goods of copper and gold.

The Eneolithic period is followed by the enigmatic Transitional Period, which witnessed the demise of the Varna culture and reduced evidence of settlement along the Bulgarian coast more widely in the centuries between about 3850 and 3200 cal BC (Table 20.1). This reduction in settlement evidence is variously attributed to social collapse or environmental processes such as climate change and flooding of productive farm land by sea-level rise (Todorova 1995). This period was followed, in its turn, by the renewed appearance of settlements after c. 3200 cal BC, associated with the Early Bronze Age.

rms2
02-15-2021, 02:15 AM
I was looking back over the Linderholm et al (2020) paper and rediscovered that individuals pcw040 and pcw041 were first degree relatives, probably father and son, since pcw040 was a boy 7-9 years old, and pcw041 was an adult male 40-45 years old, and the two were buried near each other at Święte, Site 20.

That's interesting, because pcw040 was R1b-L52, but the researchers could only get as far as R1b-M269 with his apparent father. If they really were father and son, which seems the likeliest scenario, that means pcw041 was R1b-L52, as well.

dsm
02-15-2021, 06:48 AM
I was looking back over the Linderholm et al (2020) paper and rediscovered that individuals pcw040 and pcw041 were first degree relatives, probably father and son, since pcw040 was a boy 7-9 years old, and pcw041 was an adult male 40-45 years old, and the two were buried near each other at Święte, Site 20.

That's interesting, because pcw040 was R1b-L52, but the researchers could only get as far as R1b-M269 with his apparent father. If they really were father and son, which seems the likeliest scenario, that means pcw041 was R1b-L52, as well.

Or the sample was contaminated (just another possibility) - when the bulk of researchers are R1b-L151 descendants or R1a-Z283 descendants (80% of Europe) we must be careful.

But lets hope this is not the case here.

rms2
02-15-2021, 02:02 PM
Or the sample was contaminated (just another possibility) - when the bulk of researchers are R1b-L151 descendants or R1a-Z283 descendants (80% of Europe) we must be careful.

But lets hope this is not the case here.

They take careful precautions against contamination, document them, and report on the likelihood of contamination.

Besides, as has been pointed out several times already, modern Y-DNA pops out in a sample and would not yield L52 and nothing else. Downstream SNPs that characterize modern men would appear.

Linderholm remarked in her paper about the good state of preservation of the remains from Małopolska and their consequent suitability for the analysis she and her team performed on them.

Reserve worries about contamination for samples that actually show signs of contamination.

From page 2 of the Supplementary Information of the Linderholm et al paper:



The scientific value of the Małopolska finds has been enhanced by the increased number graves discovered during planned archaeological research, a relatively good preservation of skeletons - enabling the application of many types of specialist analyses, and the exceptionally rich grave equipment. The particular features of the funeral rituals included finds from various regions. In the case of Małopolska, however, their distinctive connection with the rituality of the communities living in the North-Pontic steppe/forest-steppe zone is noteworthy and of special significance for the present study.

rms2
02-15-2021, 05:48 PM
I have previously posted this a year or so ago but here it is again
https://archeo.amu.edu.pl/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/121535/BPS18.pdf
.
Associated figure 22
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/27/30/72/27307283999a9bf31de96ba0fe8d7532.jpg

it is postulated that the oldest of these metallurgical goods originated in Kiev/Kyiv Ukraine




So we know there was a trade route from Kiev on the Dnieper to the Vistula in southeastern Poland/northwestern Ukraine circa 3000 BC

Quote from wiki about the Middle Dnieper culture "is a formative early expression of the Corded Ware culture,[1] ca. 3200—2300 BC, of northern Ukraine and Belarus"

I recently told Ukrainian archaeologist Viktor Klochko I am interested in the origins of Corded Ware (via the message feature at academia.edu - I don't know him personally). He recommended several papers to me, and the one that map came from was one of them. I was just looking at that paper this morning: Viktor Klochko, “Complex of Metal Goods between the Vistula and Dnieper Rivers at the turn of 4000-3000 to 3000 BC Concept of the Carpathian – Volhynia “Willow Leaf” Metallurgy Centre” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 18, 2013).

It has a lot of detail about various finds of metal artefacts, but the main thrust of it is that the Willow-Leaf Metal Complex was based on a "Carpathian-Volhynia centre", and was really more about that route than any direct Dnieper-to-Vistula route. It also seems to me that when the Vistula is mentioned, the intent is the Vistula basin, not so much the banks of the Vistula itself, although certainly that is included in the Vistula basin.

Anyway, though, clearly there was metal trade going on throughout the area covered by that complex.

This is from page 39 of the paper:



He [Antoniewicz] also suggested that the pendants had similarities among monuments of the Carpathian-Danube circle and that their subsequent routes led through the Bukovyna or Eastern Carpathian mountain passes, through Podolia and the Red Rus to the Volhynia region (Antoniewicz 1929:145).

Apparently "Red Rus" is an old name for Red Ruthenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ruthenia), i.e., parts of western Ukraine and adjoining parts of SE Poland (of which Małopolska forms a part).

Podolia lies along the Dniester river. Here's a map that shows where Volhynia is.

43328

The following is from the paper's conclusions on page 68:



The study of the complex of metallurgical goods from the region between the rivers of the Vistula and Dnieper shows that from the end of 4000 BC a metallurgical centre had emerged in the Pre-Carpathian and Volhynia regions, based on local deposits of copper (Klochko et al. 2000; Kloczko et. al 2003). The centre was founded by metallurgists of the late Tripolye culture and migrants from central Europe.

From early 3000 BC, that centre became the main producer of metal goods (the “willow leaf” metal complex) for the Corded Ware cultures between the rivers of the Vistula and Dnieper (Fig. 20). The “willow leaf” metal complex includes the objects referred to above: “willow leaf” temple pendants and other pieces of jewellery, flax axes with flanges of the Dunakomlod-Sokal type, Stublo-type axes and daggers of the “Proto-Únětice” type. The Carpathian-Volhynia centre had connections with the Carpathian basin and the Eastern Mediterranean.

Probably, the theory of the development of metallurgy in the late Neolithic – Early Bronze Age in Europe, in the form of the Circum-Pontic metallurgical province as defined by Evgenij Cernych (1992), requires revision. First, a new Carpathian-Volhynia centre emerges within the Circum-Pontic metallurgical province that served the Corded Ware cultures.

rms2
02-15-2021, 07:25 PM
Judging from those maps and what we have learned from several papers, including those by Klochko, Włodarczak, and Linderholm, it looks to me like the area from the Pripyat in the north, to the Prut in the southwest, all the way to the Dnieper in the east, was the hot zone in the Corded Ware birth saga, with a special focus on Małopolska, which strikes me as the gateway and the real womb or matrix of Corded Ware.

Małopolska kept up its contacts with the East, including with the Middle Dnieper culture and with Catacombnaya, the latter of which had an influence on CW burials in Małopolska, which included some catacombs.

I still think the Dniester valley route was important, running as it does through the hot zone I described, and leading northwestwards from the Black Sea all the way to the very doorstep of Małopolska.

MitchellSince1893
02-16-2021, 06:43 AM
When you think about it, we are talking about what is likely a very small group. P312 and U106 are dated to around 3050 BC according to McDonald’s best guess.

So they probably aren’t in the picture yet, but they along with S1194 and A8053 go back to a single male who carried the L151, L11, YSC0000191 mutations, who lived around 3100 BC.

One man. I tend to forget this fact.

Was he a single traveler, or with a group of future CWC R1a and dead end L52 cousins (dead end in the sense that none of their descendants have been detected in present day testers).

Imagine how the world would be different if Mr L151 died before he had male descendants. Western Europe and the Americas would be very different places from a y-dna perspective.

razyn
02-16-2021, 11:14 AM
I recently told Ukrainian archaeologist Viktor Klochko I am interested in the origins of Corded Ware (via the message feature at academia.edu - I don't know him personally). He recommended several papers to me, and the one that map came from was one of them. I was just looking at that paper this morning: Viktor Klochko, “Complex of Metal Goods between the Vistula and Dnieper Rivers at the turn of 4000-3000 to 3000 BC Concept of the Carpathian – Volhynia “Willow Leaf” Metallurgy Centre” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 18, 2013).

This title had a familiar ring, I checked, and sure enough, I had downloaded it last April. But this thread started in May. By then, it wasn't fresh in my mind. I hadn't printed it out, so it wasn't in the stack of papers right in front of me; actually, in April, that was probably some income tax stuff. Anyway the earlier thread that contained a lot of the background discussion about routes (for L51 into Europe west of the steppe via Corded Ware) was started by Rocca in Jan. 2019, and the last post on it was Feb. 2020.. So it doesn't have links to this specific Klochko map and paper. However, it does have a lot of pertinent conversations in which most of us were active.

I particularly like the part beginning at post #610 and ending at post #658. That included a pissing contest between me and Generalissimo that subsequent papers, discoveries and blogs have largely rendered moot -- but I don't think either he or I have been proven wildly off target. He's still beating a drum for SGC, based on autosomal evidence; and I'm still trying to find when, where and how the R1b-L51 founder lineage got from the Samara/Khvalynsk area to SGC (i.e., the YDNA part). And for that, I think the long detour into extreme southwestern Yamnaya, Budzhak, passes over the Carpathians into the Hungarian Plain, etc. are just a distraction -- probably, a Z2103 distraction. If you don't want to hop around to other threads and ancient history (2019), don't click this. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16234-Bell-Beaker-Archaeology-and-Ancient-DNA&p=544968&viewfull=1#post544968

rms2
02-16-2021, 12:39 PM
I'm thinking Single Grave is super important for us, but it's just one step back up the pedigree from Beaker.

Meanwhile, most of us want to know where R1b-L51 ultimately came from and how Corded Ware originally came about, and that predates Single Grave.

I just hope some of the rumored papers that are important for the L51 story - more than one, from what I've heard - start to get published online soon so that we can read and discuss them.

rms2
02-16-2021, 01:00 PM
I might have mentioned this before, but Hubinek, the site of those CWC-X horizon burials rc dated to 3000-2900 BC, is evidently not even two miles east of Łubcze, which was one of the Corded Ware burial sites that yielded up three R1b-L52 skeletons reported on in Linderholm et al (2020).

Hubinek, Poland (https://goo.gl/maps/ZZWvXA95xVzEXVhr8)

TigerMW
02-16-2021, 04:00 PM
I don't know, but I'm guessing the boat or model boat on top of that Budzhak kurgan at Semenovka is an indication that Budzhak people were pretty adept at boat building and navigating the Black Sea, at least its coastal waters, and nearby rivers, like the Dniester.

Probably the man in that grave was a fisherman and liked his boats, which is why his kinfolk put a boat, or a model of a boat, on top of his grave. I'll bet there were many more such graves in that region, but probably the wooden boats have rotted away without a trace. It's amazing at least enough of that one survived for archaeologists to be able to tell what it was.
At Sutton Hoo, they figured only a very rich man, i.e. a king would have his boat (or a model) buried with him. They felt that indicated that travel by boat was important to him. Of course, he was buried with gold too.
BTW, saw the movie “The Dig”. It is fictional but partially true. Ralph Fiennes is the archaeologist and it is about Sutton Hoo.

razyn
02-16-2021, 04:06 PM
I have one quibble with the term "Pre-Carpathian" in the English (translated from Ukrainian or Russian, I think) paper about the metal province of Volhynia. That term probably was translating something like прикарпатський. The при in that doesn't mean "pre" in the temporal sense, "prior to." It's more like "nearly." Close to, but not quite, Carpathian (as seen from the Ukrainian perspective).

Farther west, a familiar (and similarly confusing) term would be Cisalpine Gaul: from the Roman viewpoint, "this side of the Alps." Which, in English, really means (as viewed from the Isles) "the other side of the Alps."

In other news, I've grabbed another map, this time from a 2020 paper on Klochko's Academia page: Viktor I. Klochko, Aleksander Kośko, "At the Dawn of Metallurgy in the West of the Baltic-Pontic Intermarine Area. The Concept of Impulses from Subcarpathia, Podolia and Volhynia: an Outline of Currently Discussed Issues" (2020). There are several similar maps; I like this one, because at least it shows distribution of the artifacts all the way to the Baltic. There is a gap where Belarus interferes with the otherwise two-state (Ukraine and Poland) data set. That makes it appear as if the Pripyat basin is not part of the metallurgical province. Don't believe your eyes, read the caption.

43349

And by the way, the archaeological cultures Vinča–Altheim and Remedello-Bytyń are, elsewhere in the paper, dated from 3600/3500 BC to 3300/3100 BC. So, the complex trade routes involving those axe heads (of arsenical copper and arsenical bronze) were in place early enough to have been used for the R1b-L51 Corded Ware westward expansion.

rms2
02-16-2021, 06:05 PM
Honestly, that's the way I understood the term "pre-Carpathian", i.e., the foothills of the Carpathians, before one gets into the mountains themselves.

One has to recall that the Willow-Leaf Metal Complex was begun by Neolithic Tripolye people.

I know the Middle Dnieper culture, which evidently represented a west-to-east move by Corded Ware, had sites in Belarus, but does anyone know of any older Corded Ware or Yamnaya burial sites in Belarus, sites that pre-date Middle Dnieper?

I ask that because Belarus is not really on the steppe. It's a little too far north in forest country, which is what makes me wonder about it as a source of the steppe pastoralist people who went into the making of Corded Ware, or as a chief route west for them from their steppe homeland.

TigerMW
02-16-2021, 07:50 PM
I might have mentioned this before, but Hubinek, the site of those CWC-X horizon burials rc dated to 3000-2900 BC, is evidently not even two miles east of Łubcze, which was one of the Corded Ware burial sites that yielded up three R1b-L52 skeletons reported on in Linderholm et al (2020).

Hubinek, Poland (https://goo.gl/maps/ZZWvXA95xVzEXVhr8)

For general discussion, the R1b-L51>P310/L52 at Lubzec and Swiete, Poland are from about 2400 BC so they could have been either a
1) Remnant along the trail of the R1b-L51>P310/L52 that went to SGC or
2) A later wave from the Steppes

Does their autosomal DNA provide any clues? Are they on that cline from CWC to SGC to East BBC? or do they have more Steppe auDNA? Has Eurogenes positioned the Lubzec/Swiete guy? How do they compare to Aesch25 and Auvernier?

rms2
02-16-2021, 08:23 PM
For general discussion, the R1b-L51>P310/L52 at Lubzec and Swiete, Poland are from about 2400 BC so they could have been either a
1) Remnant along the trail of the R1b-L51>P310/L52 that went to SGC or

Yeah, I know Hubinek predated them by several centuries; in fact, I mentioned that before. Even so, the fact that Łubcze is less than two miles west of Hubinek might be significant.

SGC itself is pretty old, at least in its beginning, c. 2800 BC, as I recall.



2) A later wave from the Steppes

This is from page 2 of the Linderholm et al Supplementary Information:



The scientific value of the Małopolska finds has been enhanced by the increased number graves discovered during planned archaeological research, a relatively good preservation of skeletons - enabling the application of many types of specialist analyses, and the exceptionally rich grave equipment. The particular features of the funeral rituals included finds from various regions. In the case of Małopolska, however, their distinctive connection with the rituality of the communities living in the North-Pontic steppe/forest-steppe zone is noteworthy and of special significance for the present study.



Does their autosomal DNA provide any clues? Are they on that cline from CWC to SGC to East BBC? or do they have more Steppe auDNA? Has Eurogenes positioned the Lubzec/Swiete guy?

They didn't resemble BBC autosomally. They had more steppe DNA.

This is from page 5 of the Linderholm et al Supplementary Information:



The burials of CWC individuals in niche graves (16) do not correspond to the (hypothetical) oldest wave of the CWC phase with the assumed migration of pastoral communities from Eastern Europe (generally labelled the "A-horizon" or "Pan-European"). However, they are related to the second, separate phase (or "wave") of eastern influences, taking place around 2600-2500 BCE along the border zone between the forest and forest-steppe, and areas of Volhynia and Podolia towards Małopolska. The absolute dating of the burials analysed here correspond to the age of graves from other regions (including Central Germany or Polish lowland), from which burials have already been archaeogenomically studied. In this context, a certain genetic distinction of the Małopolska population from CWC individuals from other regions may be important. It is expressed by the repeatability of the Y-chromosomal R1b group in Małopolska materials, which has not been found in other regions of Central Europe but is present in the environment of Yamnaya and Catacombnaya steppe societies. The carried out comparative analyses indicated the closeness of the genetic pool of the Małopolska CWC and the Afanasievo culture. This challenging correlation, however correlates with archaeological conceptions assuming the eastern genesis of Catacombnaya culture, its significant influence on the formation of Middle Dnieper culture and then the expansion towards the west. Its consequence could be a modification of the gene pool, changed initially by the first migrations of the steppe communities towards the west.

Almost all the Małopolska Corded Ware burials in Linderholm et al were niche burials, considered eastern in origin, and there were even some Catacombnaya-style catacomb burials there (although I don't think any of the remains tested by Linderholm came from Catacomb graves).

Correction: Wait a minute! Evidently what Linderholm means by "niche burials" in the context of her paper is catacomb burials!

This is from page 3 of the Supplementary Information:



Around 2600/2550 BCE new elements appeared in the funeral ritual of the Małopolska CWC
societies, indicating contacts with the rites and practices of the Eastern European communities. The most important expression is the niche (catacomb) form of the grave construction.


That kind of changes things! I remember reading those sentences, but they didn't register at the time.

rms2
02-16-2021, 08:51 PM
From what I can see, all seven of the seven Małopolska burials in Linderholm et al that yielded R1b males were niche/catacomb burials (one of them had two male bodies in it - two toddlers - for a total of eight R1b males).

TigerMW
02-16-2021, 09:39 PM
Yeah, I know Hubinek predated them by several centuries; in fact, I mentioned that before. Even so, the fact that Łubcze is less than two miles west of Hubinek might be significant.

SGC itself is pretty old, at least in its beginning, c. 2800 BC, as I recall.



This is from page 2 of the Linderholm et al Supplementary Information:





They didn't resemble BBC autosomally. They had more steppe DNA.

This is from page 5 of the Linderholm et al Supplementary Information:



Almost all the Małopolska Corded Ware burials in Linderholm et al were niche burials, considered eastern in origin, and there were even some Catacombnaya-style catacomb burials there (although I don't think any of the remains tested by Linderholm came from Catacomb graves).

Correction: Wait a minute! Evidently what Linderholm means by "niche burials" in the context of her paper is catacomb burials!

This is from page 3 of the Supplementary Information:



That kind of changes things! I remember reading those sentences, but they didn't register at the time.
Wow, so this may be origins of R1b-L51? Is that what you are thinking?

rms2
02-16-2021, 10:04 PM
Wow, so this may be origins of R1b-L51? Is that what you are thinking?

I'm not sure. The three R1b Swiss Corded Ware burials (one L52, one L151, one M269) are kind of old (2866-2501 BC) for Catacombnaya to be the source of L51 in Europe, and a lot depends on how old those upcoming SGC L51s are, since SGC can go back to around 2800 BC.

But this is interesting. Maybe there was R1b-L51 in Catacombnaya?

I think Wang et al got some Catacombnaya Y-DNA, and it was R1b-M269, but it might have been Z2103. I don't recall. If it had been L51, we would have heard about that, but that doesn't mean future testing of Catacombnaya remains won't yield L51.

This is from page 21 of the Linderholm et al Supplementary Information:



In the perspective of archaeogenetic analyses, the chronological relation of CWC niche graves to the kurgan cultural complexes from the northern Pontic zone, and above all to the Catacomb culture, is important. The absolute dating presented above unambiguously indicates that the graveyards of the younger phase of the CWC are younger than the graves of the Yamnaya culture. However, they correspond to the graves of the older phase of the Catacomb culture in the north-west area of the Black Sea region. Significant seems to be also the chronological relation of examined materials to the cemeteries of Afanasievo culture from western Siberia.

I believe Wang's Catacombnaya remains came from the steppe adjacent to the Caucasus Piedmont and not from the NW Black Sea region.

TigerMW
02-16-2021, 10:10 PM
... But this is interesting. Maybe there was R1b-L51 in Catacombnaya?

I think Wang et al got some Catacombnaya Y-DNA, and it was R1b-M269, but it might have been Z2103. I don't recall. If it had been L51, we would have heard about that, but that doesn't mean future testing of Catacombnaya remains won't yield L51.

If the Catacobnaya was a source for a migration to Afanasievo then Catacombnaya could be the origin for R1b-L51>P310 (Afanasievo has P310) as well, not just L51.

rms2
02-16-2021, 10:18 PM
Maybe the NW coast of the Black Sea, which was Budzhak Yamnaya before it became Catacombnaya, was the original source of R1b-L51 into Europe west of the steppe, or at least a source. After all, it was Mikhailovka and Kemi Oba before it was Budzhak, and those folks had burial rites that were a lot like Corded Ware, including the crouched-on-the-side posture.

rms2
02-16-2021, 10:20 PM
If the Catacobnaya was a source for a migration to Afanasievo then Catacombnaya could be the origin for R1b-L51>P310 (Afanasievo has P310) as well, not just L51.

Afanasievo is way older than Catacombnaya, so Repin folk - or some other steppe people - were the ancestors of both. Or maybe there was a "reflux" of Afanasievo people?

TigerMW
02-16-2021, 10:39 PM
Afanasievo is way older than Catacombnaya, so Repin folk - or some other steppe people - were the ancestors of both. Or maybe there was a "reflux" of Afanasievo people?

No, I am burnt out on the "refluxes". LOL

I have the dating backwards (on Catacombnaya) so this goes back Repin potentially, which fits David's Anthony theory that Repin was a source for Afanasievo.
or.. Buzdhak Yamnaya precedecessors. This comes back to what really is L51's TMRCA. We don't really know and there is something amiss in some of the estimates.

rms2
02-16-2021, 11:23 PM
Evidently there was movement into Małopolska from the Pontic steppe during the period about 2600-2500 BC, just slightly before the burials in Linderholm et al, which date from 2479-2349 BC. Linderholm calls it the second phase or wave of eastern influences, and those catacomb graves reflect that.

Maybe there was fresh L51 coming up that way, or maybe they were just locals whose burials copied new-fangled eastern styles. Odd that they bore some kind of autosomal resemblance to Afanasievo if the latter was the case, though.

MitchellSince1893
02-16-2021, 11:46 PM
The burials of CWC individuals in niche [Catacombnaya] graves (16) do not correspond to the (hypothetical) oldest wave of the CWC phase with the assumed migration of pastoral communities from Eastern Europe (generally labelled the "A-horizon" or "Pan-European"). However, they are related to the second, separate phase (or "wave") of eastern influences, taking place around 2600-2500 BCE along the border zone between the forest and forest-steppe, and areas of Volhynia and Podolia towards Małopolska.
As you (rms2 & TigerW) alluded, Catacombnaya is too young. U152 is dated to 2542 BC (RISE563) in Bavaria, so L151 obviously has to be well before this (at least 5 mutations separate them). Also, wouldn't L151 more likely be part of the oldest CWC wave? It would have to be to get into Western Europe (i.e. those Swiss Corded Ware L52/L151/M269 burials), and into the SCG.

Dewsloth
02-17-2021, 12:27 AM
As you (rms2 & TigerW) alluded, Catacombnaya is too young. U152 is dated to 2542 BC (RISE563) in Bavaria, so L151 obviously has to be well before this (at least 5 mutations separate them). Also, wouldn't L151 more likely be part of the oldest CWC wave? It would have to be to get into Western Europe (i.e. those Swiss Corded Ware L52/L151/M269 burials), and into the SCG.


Evidently there was movement into Małopolska from the Pontic steppe during the period about 2600-2500 BC, just slightly before the burials in Linderholm et al, which date from 2479-2349 BC. Linderholm calls it the second phase or wave of eastern influences, and those catacomb graves reflect that.

Maybe there was fresh L51 coming up that way, or maybe they were just locals whose burials copied new-fangled eastern styles. Odd that they bore some kind of autosomal resemblance to Afanasievo if the latter was the case, though.

It's funny although probably coincidence, but the largest and oldest-formed subclade of DF19, which is DF88 and is probably as old if not older than U152, has two DF88* folks with mapped MDKA (all the other DF88s are from established subclades below DF88).
One MDKA is from Sokndal, Rogaland in southern Norway, the other is from Sanok, Poland, in Malopolska/Lesser Poland tucked in the SE corner with Ukraine (and 120km west of the Dniester's source at Drohobych, Ukraine) just across the eastern border and Slovakia (and the Carpathians) just south.

If you draw a line between the two DF88* locations, everything in between is CWC/SGC ground zero: West Poland, North Germany and Denmark/Jutland.

Edit: Sanok is on the San River, which feeds into the Vistula in southern Poland before the Bug River does, north of Warsaw

Second Edit: Corrected geography (Sanok is actually in the Malopolska region) and proximityto Dniester

TigerMW
02-17-2021, 12:33 AM
Maybe the NW coast of the Black Sea, which was Budzhak Yamnaya before it became Catacombnaya, was the original source of R1b-L51 into Europe west of the steppe, or at least a source. After all, it was Mikhailovka and Kemi Oba before it was Budzhak, and those folks had burial rites that were a lot like Corded Ware, including the crouched-on-the-side posture.
Do you think any Y DNA from Repin trickled southwest into Mikhailovak and Kemi Oba? I've read there was influence but don't think it was "massive" to use a popular word.

rms2
02-17-2021, 12:42 AM
As you (rms2 & TigerW) alluded, Catacombnaya is too young. U152 is dated to 2542 BC (RISE563) in Bavaria, so L151 obviously has to be well before this (at least 5 mutations separate them). Also, wouldn't L151 more likely be part of the oldest CWC wave? It would have to be to get into Western Europe (i.e. those Swiss Corded Ware L52/L151/M269 burials), and into the SCG.

When I said "I'm not sure", I did not mean that L51 might have come originally from Catacombnaya: as you said, Catacombnaya is much too young. What I meant was that the apparent Catacombnaya influences (or even population movement) could be an indication that the same region that may have supplied the ancestors of those Małopolska R1b Corded Ware guys in catacomb graves might have been the original source of R1b-L51 in Corded Ware.

As Linderholm said, that region was the NW Black Sea coast, which, before Catacombnaya, was inhabited by Budzhak Yamnaya.

We know from archaeology that Budzhak moved north from the NW Black Sea coast up the valleys of the Dniester and Prut rivers. Ivanova thinks they moved into Małopolska, and she's the Budzhak expert. If it wasn't Budzhak, it could have been some pre-Budzhak Yamnaya folks from that same area.

43353

rms2
02-17-2021, 12:51 AM
Do you think any Y DNA from Repin trickled southwest into Mikhailovak and Kemi Oba? I've read there was influence but don't think it was "massive" to use a popular word.

Honestly, I don't know. I do know we don't have any ancient DNA from Mikhailovka or Kemi Oba. We don't have any from Budzhak either.

Do we have any from Repin?

rms2
02-17-2021, 01:08 AM
Just to be clear, while R1b-L51 did not originate with Catacombnaya and first arrive in Europe from that source, I do think it likely those eight R1b Corded Ware guys (mostly L51, etc.) in catacomb graves in Małopolska from the Linderholm et al paper were the grandsons or great grandsons of Catacombnaya immigrants from the NW Black Sea coast.

That's why they carried some extra eastern autosomal DNA that, based on what we have available, is closest to Afanasievo, and were buried in catacomb graves.

I could be wrong, but what I think that amounts to is a clue as to the original source of the L51 in Europe west of the steppe: not the too-young Catacombnaya culture, but the NW Black Sea region.

We're all taking educated guesses, though. I could change my mind tomorrow if new, more compelling evidence comes in.

rms2
02-17-2021, 02:11 AM
Here is a map I adapted from the Linderholm Supplementary Information that shows where the four Małopolska Corded Ware burial sites are that yielded up R1b: Łubcze, Mirocin, Święte, and Szczytna. I also added a dot for Hubinek, where those CWC-X Horizon burials are that have been rc-dated to 3000-2900 BC. It's less than two miles east of Łubcze.

I added the headwaters of the Dniester River roughly where they are. You can see the Dniester lies at the doorstep of Małopolska. From there it flows southeast all the way to the Black Sea.

The second map is from Britannica and gives an overall sense of the region.

43357 43356

MitchellSince1893
02-17-2021, 02:27 AM
Originally Posted by R.Rocca...”that is not to say that the heart shaped arrowheads don't appear even further to the east. Recall the Yamnaya/Budzhak Culture burial with similar arrowheads...”



Budzhak territory is located roughly half way between the heart shaped arrow heads in eastern Bell Beaker in Poland and the similar style arrow heads on the lower Dnieper and north of the Sea of Azov Yamnaya

This is a post from 2017. While it’s in reference to the similarities Bell Beaker arrow heads in SW Poland to those along the Black Sea;

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=266360&viewfull=1#post266360

Map of arrowheads
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/9a/16/9b/9a169b004b6ba0296ee31f0b53e0d78f.png

Unlike pots, arrowhead manufacturing was typically
male dominated e.g. father passing his knowledge to his son.
If Bell Beaker derived from CWC, which derived from ______. Follow the arrowheads?

MitchellSince1893
02-17-2021, 02:34 AM
Here’s another post from that thread about Kemi-Oba being in the area of the arrow heads

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=267687&viewfull=1#post267687

We’ve been talking about this same area, on and off, for close to 4 years now.

Back then I was thinking this Budzhak area was the homeland for P312 and U106. I guess that’s still a possibility, but My current thinking would place it closer to the Baltic

razyn
02-17-2021, 04:17 AM
If Bell Beaker derived from CWC, which derived from ______. Follow the arrowheads?

Nope. Follow the ancient YDNA -- when we get it.

But btw the place name Zaporizhya way down the Dnieper (with a blue arrowhead) is the artist formerly known as Sredny Stog. Zaporizhya is "beyond the rapids" from the more civilized part of the watershed, such as Kiev (way upstream), Chernigov (way way upstream), and Pinsk (way way way upstream). The actual Dnieper rapids, a series of nine cataracts, have been under deep water since construction of a big dam in Soviet times. Beyond them, i.e. below Zaporizhya, it was pretty much Cossacks all the way down. (Not in the Bronze Age, when the local populace was just another of the many variants of Yamnaya.)

Dewsloth
02-17-2021, 04:20 PM
Here is a map I adapted from the Linderholm Supplementary Information that shows where the four Małopolska Corded Ware burial sites are that yielded up R1b: Łubcze, Mirocin, Święte, and Szczytna. I also added a dot for Hubinek, where those CWC-X Horizon burials are that have been rc-dated to 3000-2900 BC. It's less than two miles east of Łubcze.

I added the headwaters of the Dniester River roughly where they are. You can see the Dniester lies at the doorstep of Małopolska. From there it flows southeast all the way to the Black Sea.

The second map is from Britannica and gives an overall sense of the region.

43357 43356

Cool. Thanks for the maps. I amended post #1052 to reflect this^^^, quite a coincidental location...

TigerMW
02-17-2021, 05:12 PM
...
It has a lot of detail about various finds of metal artefacts, but the main thrust of it is that the Willow-Leaf Metal Complex was based on a "Carpathian-Volhynia centre", and was really more about that route than any direct Dnieper-to-Vistula route. It also seems to me that when the Vistula is mentioned, the intent is the Vistula basin, not so much the banks of the Vistula itself, although certainly that is included in the Vistula basin.

Anyway, though, clearly there was metal trade going on throughout the area covered by that complex.

This is from page 39 of the paper:



Apparently "Red Rus" is an old name for Red Ruthenia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ruthenia), i.e., parts of western Ukraine and adjoining parts of SE Poland (of which Małopolska forms a part).

Podolia lies along the Dniester river. Here's a map that shows where Volhynia is.

43328

The following is from the paper's conclusions on page 68:

One thing I really enjoy in reading and thinking about ancient migrations is that it helps me learn geography. I appreciate all of those who dig things up and show the maps and terrain.

I've been iced in and without power much of the last couple of days. Even the internet access on my phone is bad. I can't get good modern cellular signals like 4GS/5GS and therefore lacked live streaming. Besides keeping my phone backup batteries charged I've downloaded several things so have now seen a couple of series on WWII.

I just watched the Battle of Stalingrad(Volgograd) documentary. It really helps to understand what it means to cross the Don River and follow it to Volgograd to the banks of the Volga River. This whole area has really been through a lot over the years.

TigerMW
02-17-2021, 07:35 PM
It seems that L51 formed over 1000 years before CW existed and even the common ancestor could be that kind of age. So, single grave only dating from 2900BC must be many steps further downstream. I'd strongly suspect L51 in single grave in L151. In fact the yfull date of its TMRCA of 2800BC is very close to the age of single grave. So, that TMRCA may actually reflect the moment very early L151 found itself in a situation to expand into vast new territories and expand as a lineage. In fact the MRCA date of L151 c. 2800BC may represent the first ever very large expansion of any L51 clade as L52xL151 looks a minor player.

There are some caveats in TMRCA dating. It is clearly not as precise as Radio Carbon dating. I don't want to bog down this thread but I left the door open on the R1b tip of the iceberg chart thread. If you want we can discuss over there but we have multiple opinions on R1b-L51's TMRCA, etc. I love to use those TMRCAs and ancient DNA to corner/box in culture/geographic candidates for subclade origins..... but to be clear this not clear cut. This reminds me of my old System Engineer's answer to everything - "it depends".
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23070-R1b-quot-tip-of-the-iceberg-quot

rms2
02-17-2021, 08:22 PM
I've downloaded a lot of archaeological papers lately but haven't gotten around to reading them all. This morning I've been going through a couple of them. What is apparent to me is that the Dniester and Prut river valleys formed a kind of ancient highway between the NW coast of the Black Sea and Małopolska that was in operation a long time. I'm not saying that was the only route into Europe west of the steppe, but it certainly was an active one. There are tons of quotes I could post, but I'll try to limit myself to a few.

To begin with, we probably need to know what and where the Yampil Burial Complex (YBC) is. The following is from page 193 of Arkadiusz Marciniak, “Status of Animals in Funerary Rituals of Founders and Users of Ceremonial Centres of the Yampil Barrow Cemetery Complex” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 22, 2017):



The Yampil Barrow Cemetery Complex (YBC or YBCC) refers to the area with ‘barrow architecture’ located along the left bank of the Middle Dniester and its tributaries (between the Murafa and Markivka), or what is the Yampil region (Vinnitsa Oblast) in modern administrative division (Fig . 1).

. . .

Still used with just minor amendments, N.Ya . Merpert [1974] places the “Yamnaya Cultural-historical area”, often referred to as the Yampil (Podolia) territorial centre, within the Southwestern Variant (between the Southern Bug and Danube rivers), which formed the northwest boundary of the Yamnaya culture circle [Merpert 1974; Rassamakin, Nikolova 2008: Fig . 1; Ivanova, Toschev 2015: 378; see Heyd 2011].

Here is a map from that same paper.

43374

The following is from page 411 of Svetlana Ivanova, “ ‘Yampil Inspirations’: A Study of the Dniester Cultural Contact Area at the Frontier of Baltic and Pontic Drainage Basin” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 20, 2015):



2. In the light of the above outline therefore one should argue that the ‘architecture of barrows’ associated in the Yampil landscape of the Middle Dniester Area with the Eneolithic (specifically, mainly with the TC), precedes the development of a similar phenomenon that can be observed from 2900/2800 BC in the Upper Dniester Area and drainage basin of the Upper Vistula, associated with the Corded Ware culture (CWC) [Włodarczak 2006; 2007; 2008; Jarosz, Włodarczak 2007; Goslar et al. 2015].
. . .
One of the main signposts of the continuity of this phenomenon in a later period corresponding to the early phases of the CWC and YC [Yamnaya Culture], remains the striking correspondence of style in respect of type A amphorae from the Vistula area (Złota, ‘Nad Wawrem’ site, grave 436) and the Middle Dniester Region, from Yampil barrow concentrate on (Porohy, barrow 2, grave 2) [Ivanova et al. 2014]. The discovery of flint artefacts from barrows in Porohy (3A/15) and Prydnistryanske (IV/7) points, moreover, to the important role of raw materials from Upper Dniester areas, as well as to technology serving as an inspiration for flint working by CWC communities [Razumov 2011: 141-148]. The number of finds documenting CWC – YC ties, alas is modest and clearly less than finds testifying to GAC – YC cultural exchange.


From page 412 of the same Ivanova paper:



Of special research interest therefore is the role of communication between the Black Sea Coast and the drainage basin of the Baltic Sea in the formation of a new set of barrow rituals: the old Corded Ware horizon. In this context, the Middle Dniester Area would have played the role of a cultural exchange, though scarcity of finds from the south-eastern reaches of the CWC constitutes a barrier in providing more details (between the Yampil agglomeration of Eneolithic barrows of the YC and the Zbrucz River, where the easternmost CWC barrows are found, there is a belt of ‘no man’s land’, measuring some 150 km across).
. . .
Hence, it is Małopolska at present that provides an insight into the importance of relations between the Northern Pontic Area and the Final Neolithic of Central Europe. It is on this basis that attempts at genetic interpretation are made [Włodarczak 2014]. Importantly, this does not negate the fundamental significance of Podolia together with the main Dniester cultural contact route.


Okay, that is probably enough quoting for one post, but there is more.

The more I read this stuff, the more I am convinced those R1b guys buried in catacomb graves in Małopolska (Linderholm et al) were the products of immigration by Catacombnaya people from the NW Black Sea coast - probably not they themselves but their grandfathers or great grandfathers were the immigrants.

R.Rocca
02-17-2021, 08:44 PM
I've downloaded a lot of archaeological papers lately but haven't gotten around to reading them all. This morning I've been going through a couple of them. What is apparent to me is that the Dniester and Prut river valleys formed a kind of ancient highway between the NW coast of the Black Sea and Małopolska that was in operation a long time. I'm not saying that was the only route into Europe west of the steppe, but it certainly was an active one. There are tons of quotes I could post, but I'll try to limit myself to a few.

To begin with, we probably need to know what and where the Yampil Burial Complex (YBC) is. The following is from page 193 of Arkadiusz Marciniak, “Status of Animals in Funerary Rituals of Founders and Users of Ceremonial Centres of the Yampil Barrow Cemetery Complex” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 22, 2017):



Here is a map from that same paper.

43374

The following is from page 411 of Svetlana Ivanova, “ ‘Yampil Inspirations’: A Study of the Dniester Cultural Contact Area at the Frontier of Baltic and Pontic Drainage Basin” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 20, 2015):



From page 412 of the same Ivanova paper:



Okay, that is probably enough quoting for one post, but there is more.

The more I read this stuff, the more I am convinced those R1b guys buried in catacomb graves in Małopolska (Linderholm et al) were the products of immigration by Catacombnaya people from the NW Black Sea coast - probably not they themselves but their grandfathers or great grandfathers were the immigrants.

If memory serves me right - based on isotope data and unlike the R1a samples from Malopolska, the L52 were immigrants from an area to the SE of Poland.

rms2
02-17-2021, 08:48 PM
If memory serves me right - based on isotope data and unlike the R1a samples from Malopolska, the L52 were immigrants from an area to the SW of Poland.

Do you mean SE of Poland? I believe they were from southeast of Poland. Their autosomal DNA had a connection to Afanasievo, for one thing.

rms2
02-17-2021, 08:53 PM
Here is another quote from page 415 of the same Ivanova "Yampil" paper that I quoted in my last post above.



5. The turning point of the beginnings of ‘catacomb burial’ use in respect of Yampil barrow architecture can be said to be dated to 3350–3175 BC, which corresponds to the Eneolithic horizon of the oldest signs of this funerary ritual on the Northern Black Sea Coast [Rassamakin 2004; Goslar et al. 2015]. A grave with a catacomb construction was identified as the central feature in the hypothetically oldest barrow within the Prydnistryanske 1 (feature IV/10) necropolis and one should not exclude the fact that the semi-niche constructions of graves 1/4 and 1/7 in Pidlisivka, can also be attributed to the Eneolithic. The appearance of the CC [Catacomb Culture] in the left-bank Dniester area can therefore be dated to the middle of the 3rd millennium BC. This assessment relates to both typochronological findings from Ocniţa, Camenca Region, barrow 3, where a grave was found to relate to ‘early CC’ traditions [Otroschenko 2013], as well as the radiocarbon dated feature-grave I/4 from Prydnistryanske 1 (associated with the Donets-Ingul CC traditions): 2600-2450 BC [Klochko 1990; Manzura et al. 1992: 92; Goslar et al. 2015]. The above chronological determination confirms one of the possible chronometric variants proposed for the CC in the Dniester and Prut interfluve as being in the period 2450-1950 BC [Kaiser 2003; 2009] or 2600-2200 BC [Ivanova 2014: 22; Ivanova, Toschev 2015].

In discussing typo-chronological interpretations, recent research argues that in the area there occur in common earlier cultural traits (corner entrance shafts, positioning of the dead), as well as later ones (oval grave chambers, grave goods). This has been interpreted as a consequence of an extended settlement process in this region by CC populations. Another particularity of this region supposedly was the long co-existence of the YC and CC [Toschev 1991: 96; Ivanova, Toschev 2015]. The above interpretation in turn has consequences in the analysis of culturemaking effects produced by the Dniester route in the transmission of CC models into the Upper Vistula drainage basin. In this context, one can point to grave 1149 at Święte 11 site on the San River as a worthy example, which may be dated to around 2200-2050 BC [Kośko et al. 2012] and which could – besides reflecting the local context of the CWC – serve as an example of the fusion of exogenic traditions of the YC and CC [Ivanova, Toschev 2015a].


Once again, I think I need to point out that, when it comes to Catacombnaya, I am not talking about the origins of Corded Ware but about ongoing contacts via the Dniester/Prut route and Małopolska. Obviously, Catacombnaya was much too young to be ancestral to Corded Ware. But it looks like people did not stop coming northwest up the Dniester and Prut valleys just because Corded Ware was already in operation.

I think it also shows that the same route may have played a role centuries before in the creation of Corded Ware.

Dewsloth
02-17-2021, 09:02 PM
Here is another quote from page 415 of the same Ivanova "Yampil" paper that I quoted in my last post above.


The above interpretation in turn has consequences in the analysis of culturemaking effects produced by the Dniester route in the transmission of CC models into the Upper Vistula drainage basin. In this context, one can point to grave 1149 at Święte 11 site on the San River as a worthy example, which may be dated to around 2200-2050 BC [Kośko et al. 2012] and which could – besides reflecting the local context of the CWC – serve as an example of the fusion of exogenic traditions of the YC and CC [Ivanova, Toschev 2015a].


:eek::nerd:

rms2
02-17-2021, 09:04 PM
This is from page 25 of the Supplementary Information of the Linderholm et al paper:



5. Strontium isotopes
The results of the strontium isotope investigations are shown in Fig. 4B and listed in Table SX4. Tooth enamel of the CWC individuals from the Rzeszów Foothills gave a spectrum of 87Sr/86 Sr ratios between 0.7098 and 0.7109 with one outlier at 0.7089. Six of the ten individuals were confirmed as non-locals with strontium signatures beyond 0.7104–0.7114 baseline established for the whole Rzeszów Foothills area [54, 55]. A high proportion of non-local individuals is a characteristic feature of the CWC communities in the area. Strontium isotope signatures below 0.7104 imply the presence of an unradiogenic bedrock component in the local environment, such as marine Neogene (Miocene) and/or Mesozoic carbonate rocks. The nearest areas that meet these conditions are located along the northern and eastern margins of the Carpathian Foredeep, i.e. north and east of the Rzeszów Foothills. Among these are Roztocze in Poland (a region where the Sokal Ridge is located) and areas in the basins of Dnieper and Pripyat rivers on the territory of the present-day Belarus and Ukraine. It is important to note that the presumed origin of non-local individuals from these regions corresponds well with the archaeological context [54]. At Mirocin, several allochthonous grave inventories, linked to the Middle Dnieper culture, were found [56].

So, the non-locals weren't from southwest of Poland, just the opposite. The Dnieper/Pripyat possibility bolsters razyn's preference for that route.

I'm guessing they weren't local but weren't from too far away. Probably they were from Roztocze (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roztocze) and the Sokal Ridge area.

I believe this (https://goo.gl/maps/e2ZFDh1vkRZP8yuC9) is the area on the map.

MitchellSince1893
02-17-2021, 09:15 PM
Just a reminder that there was also an Amber trade route going through this area from Baltic to Black Sea.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20310-L51-into-Europe-West-of-the-Steppe-Via-Corded-Ware&p=740760&viewfull=1#post740760

rms2
02-17-2021, 09:45 PM
Just a reminder that there was also an Amber trade route going through this area from Baltic to Black Sea.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20310-L51-into-Europe-West-of-the-Steppe-Via-Corded-Ware&p=740760&viewfull=1#post740760

Yes, and CW burials often included amber disks.

rms2
02-17-2021, 09:56 PM
. . .
So, the non-locals weren't from southwest of Poland, just the opposite. The Dnieper/Pripyat possibility bolsters razyn's preference for that route.

I'm guessing they weren't local but weren't from too far away. Probably they were from Roztocze (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roztocze) and the Sokal Ridge area.

I believe this (https://goo.gl/maps/e2ZFDh1vkRZP8yuC9) is the area on the map.

Of the R1b Corded Ware from Małopolska in Linderholm et al, four were non-local, at least based on dental isotopes. They could have been from the Sokal Ridge area (see the post above), to the northeast of where they were buried.

Note that Łubcze, where three of the R1b Corded Ware burials were recovered, is in the Sokal Ridge region. Two of those three guys were locals to that area, and the third apparently did not yield up any dental isotopes, so we don't know about him. Since he was a little boy who shared a grave with another little boy who was a local and probably his brother, he was probably a Sokal local (that rhymes), too.

All of this is in Małopolska.

rms2
02-17-2021, 10:16 PM
Cool. Thanks for the maps. I amended post #1052 to reflect this^^^, quite a coincidental location...

Not that it matters, but I combined those maps in the hope that it makes things easier.

43388

rms2
02-17-2021, 10:42 PM
Last night I was trying to tell my wife about all this stuff. At one point, when I mentioned the Dniester River (Dnyester - as in "yesterday" - is how it's pronounced), she said, "I've been there. I've seen it."

Of course she has. Her mother was born in Lviv (often called Lvov) in NW Ukraine, and my wife still has plenty of relatives there.

I remember when my mother-in-law was visiting here with us some years ago, and we were driving through the Blue Ridge Mountains. She remarked that the area reminded her of the Karpat (the Carpathians), where she grew up.

R.Rocca
02-18-2021, 12:44 AM
Do you mean SE of Poland? I believe they were from southeast of Poland. Their autosomal DNA had a connection to Afanasievo, for one thing.

Sorry, that was a typo and I meant to say SE of Poland. Yes, the isotopes seem to to point to NW Ukraine.

rms2
02-18-2021, 01:29 AM
Sorry, that was a typo and I meant to say SE of Poland. Yes, the isotopes seem to to point to NW Ukraine.

Glad to see you posting in this thread. I wondered where you were.

As I recall, you were the first one to identify Corded Ware as the likely source of R1b-L51 in Europe west of the steppe. You were way ahead of everyone else.

etrusco
02-18-2021, 10:31 AM
Not that it matters, but I combined those maps in the hope that it makes things easier.

43376

We are short of a question, an important one. CWC has both R1b and R1a. In this thread we are focusing on R1b. Fine. Has anybody a clue about where is the "tank" in the steppe of R1a since Sredni Stog I6561 turned out to be a MBA sample. Was it out of Yamnaya or inside? Where was he hiding?

TigerMW
02-18-2021, 11:08 AM
We are short of a question, an important one. CWC has both R1b and R1a. In this thread we are focusing on R1b. Fine. Has anybody a clue about where is the "tank" in the steppe of R1a since Sredni Stog I6561 turned out to be a MBA sample. Was it out of Yamnaya or inside? Where was he hiding?
What do you mean by “tank” or is that a typo?

etrusco
02-18-2021, 11:10 AM
What do you mean by “tank” or is that a typo?

I used the italian concept. A tank is a place where something is concentrated. You must read tank= place where R1a was present in big numbers.

rms2
02-18-2021, 01:07 PM
We are short of a question, an important one. CWC has both R1b and R1a. In this thread we are focusing on R1b. Fine. Has anybody a clue about where is the "tank" in the steppe of R1a since Sredni Stog I6561 turned out to be a MBA sample. Was it out of Yamnaya or inside? Where was he hiding?

I've wondered about that myself. Obviously Corded Ware was loaded with R1a-M417, as well as R1b-L51. The stuff we have been discussing here could apply to either or both, except where the specific Y-DNA haplogroup has already been determined.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think separate tribes or clans within Corded Ware were each dominated by the Y-DNA haplogroup of some founding chief and/or other bigshots.

Personally I think Yamnaya (of some variety) was the source of both. Time will tell, if these folks ever publish the relevant papers, that is.

JoeyP37
02-18-2021, 01:49 PM
Well, you have to realize that M417 is heavily bottlenecked. Formed 8700 y BP, MRCA 5400 y BP. Then that MRCA, whom I affectionately call 'Steppe-daddy', BOOM! In comparison, we have L51 formed 6100 y BP, MRCA 5700 y BP. All times involved from YFull's YTree. Something must have happened to transform a struggling minority lineage into a group of world-beaters that spread from Bergen to Bombay. I don't know, maybe he invented the wheel?

rms2
02-18-2021, 08:52 PM
I like this thread, and I am amazed it has lasted this long, but I'm running out of things to say.

The R1a-M417 vs. R1b-L51 thing is a Corded Ware conundrum, that's for sure.

I'm pretty sure that comes down to a different-tribes-different-Y-DNA-haplogroups thing anyway.

Let's keep this going if we can. We haven't been shut down by the usual suspects, and that is awesome.

Of course, we'll need a brand new, pristine thread if any of the papers we've been promised ever appears.

rms2
02-18-2021, 09:20 PM
So, do you all think Yamnaya is responsible for Corded Ware, or was it some other steppe pastoralist group, closely related to Yamnaya but maybe earlier?

Try to back up what you think with some evidence, if you can.

Michał
02-18-2021, 11:15 PM
So, do you all think Yamnaya is responsible for Corded Ware, or was it some other steppe pastoralist group, closely related to Yamnaya but maybe earlier?

Try to back up what you think with some evidence, if you can.
This is what I wrote on this subject more than 5 years ago (and I don't know any new data that would make me change my mind):


My main objection to any indirect (or CT-filtered) contribution of Yamna to CW is related to the fact that such hypothetical Yamna->CWC (or Yamna/CT->CWC) transformation would need to have been incredibly quick and, most importantly, not reflected by any intermediate stage. It is hard to believe that the Yamna warriors/shepards would suddenly give up their prestigious metal tanged daggers, shaft-hole axes and all other characteristic elements of a typical Yamna package, while replacing them with a completely new Early CWC package, encompassing a very characteristic stone battle axe, Thuringian amphoras and early corded beakers (phase I). In other words, when the early CWC people are first noted in Central-Eastern Europe they are already associated with a quite well-defined (and I would say quite “mature”) cultural package that is undoubtedly distinct not only from Yamna or CT, but also from all well-known Neolithic cultures in Central-Eastern Europe (including TRB, GAC and Baden), despite the fact that at least some of the migrating CWC subgroupings have apparently merged with local late Neolithic populations (as exemplified by the Zlota group in Lesser Poland). In my opinion, all this suggests that the hypothetical Eastern European (ANE-rich and “Yamna-related”) proto-CWC group had enough time to undergo such a thorough transformation, which makes me suspect that this could not have been any subgrouping of a unified (and “specialized”) Yamna horizon, but rather a relatively small (and either not well-investigated or simply yet unknown) steppe-derived (or forest-steppe-derived) grouping of Late PIE people (Early Repin-derived? Khvalynsk-derived?)residing somewhere north to the Ukrainian steppe who have become specifically adapted to the “non-steppe conditions” (thus “inventing” a forest pastoralism). They could have maintained some contacts with their steppe (Yamna) relatives, so this would explain the presence of some steppe-derived technological improvements (wheels, horses, etc.), but they probably never became a part of the steppe Yamna horizon, so when the climatic conditions significantly worsened by about 3000 BC, they directed their sudden expansion to the forest zone in Central-Eastern Europe. Importantly, this process was almost simultaneous to a similar sudden expansion of Yamna to the Balkans and to the Danubian steppe, which is very well documented in archaeology, by contrast to the putative Yamna-derived migrations towards the forest zone in Central-Eastern Europe.

Also, here are some links to a similar discussion I had once with Jean M:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1361-A-deeper-think-about-beakers-and-genes&p=59025&viewfull=1#post59025
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1361-A-deeper-think-about-beakers-and-genes&p=59060&viewfull=1#post59060

razyn
02-18-2021, 11:40 PM
This is what I wrote on this subject more than 5 years ago (and I don't know any new data that would make me change my mind):

I agree with the argument, if not all of its details. "Yamnaya" is too broad; and focusing on its extreme southwestern subgroup is too narrow. The task is still, IMO, to transfer a recent ancestor from the Samara/Khvalynsk vicinity (or a place where the near cousins of those guys lived) to the SGC. Malopolska -- or some slightly more northern Polska -- is on that route. I'm not persuaded that the mouth of the Dniester is. And haven't we had credible rumors from the Volosovo culture? I don't know that they are at the right time, but that looks more like the right place -- to me.

I also think the metallurgy stuff needs more emphasis; and maybe the cowboys with oxcarts a little less.

MitchellSince1893
02-19-2021, 12:21 AM
...makes me suspect that this could not have been any subgrouping of a unified (and “specialized”) Yamna horizon, but rather a relatively small (and either not well-investigated or simply yet unknown) steppe-derived (or forest-steppe-derived) grouping of Late PIE people (Early Repin-derived? Khvalynsk-derived?)residing somewhere north to the Ukrainian steppe who have become specifically adapted to the “non-steppe conditions” (thus “inventing” a forest pastoralism).

That thought has crossed my mind too. A yet to be discovered proto corded Ware group that was too tiny and mobile to leave many clues as to its existence. With the caveat that based on ancient dna analysis, it does appear to share a common ancestry with Yamnaya

rms2
02-19-2021, 02:20 AM
Unfortunately I need to get in bed in the next few minutes, so I don't have a lot of time to argue with Michał at the moment, but I don't really agree.

As I've said before, a lot depends on what one means by "Yamnaya", and two or three centuries is enough time for quite a few cultural changes; besides, there already were Eneolithic steppe cultures that had Corded Ware-like burial rites, and they went into the making of Yamnaya.

And there is plenty of evidence of the movement of Yamnaya up the Prut-Dniester interfluve toward the area that gave birth to Corded Ware in the period prior to 3000-2900 BC and the CWC-X Horizon. Those burials at Hubinek are supposed to date to that 3000-2900 BC CWC-X Horizon period and are supposed to display traits that show the transition from Yamnaya to Corded Ware.

What non-Yamnaya people were around on the steppe at the right time who could have contributed what looks just like Yamnaya DNA to incipient Corded Ware?

Besides that, Yamnaya, as I understand it, is the catch-all term for the whole steppe pastoralist crew of that period, which is why it isn't one specific, localized culture, but is rather a widespread cultural-historical horizon.

Alain
02-19-2021, 02:40 AM
This is what I wrote on this subject more than 5 years ago (and I don't know any new data that would make me change my mind):

What do you think, why the Yamnaya graves have only a few or no additions at all - it could be the result that it was more of a segmental society, for example the Yamnaya grave finds in Bulgaria.

43395

We see that in southern Bulgaria the grave goods are gradually becoming more common and that locally produced vases of an indigenous culture can be included in the establishment of the Yamna burials in Thrace, it indicates pointed out that there was close contact between the immigrants and the indigenous population then inhabited. And for example CWC and BB graves are very well equipped and one gradually recognizes social differentiation and the formation of elites, but Yamnaya rather not.

You are right Yamnaya and CWC are different from a cultural point of view and also in their areas of distribution!

razyn
02-19-2021, 05:00 AM
[Quotes deleted post]

The thread title says it's about Corded Ware, and rms2 (who opened it) is respected by most of us here. Even if he's occasionally wrong, he argues capably. He has been watching this genetic stuff unfold for 15+ years, from a seat near the front. Most of us are guessing about something, and hoping the data eventually will prove us right about it.

TigerMW
02-19-2021, 05:47 AM
[Quotes deleted post]

What you might consider a negative trait, others, including myself, may see as strong curiosity and a relentless commitment to research. RMS2 does his homework! and we are a lot better off for it, that is for those who want to understand.
As far as Yamnaya being overrated- that is an open question, not a done deal. Certainly, Yamnaya was critical to shaping what we now know as European.The extent and types of input are open questions.This is made more complex by lack of clear black and white line over what is Yamnaya. The reality probably is it was complex and grayish around the edges. There were no strict national borders or huge geographic separators. Undoubtedly every century in East Europe had its own flavors.

rms2
02-19-2021, 02:49 PM
Wow. Thanks, guys. I didn't see the deleted post, which is probably a good thing.

When I argue a point here and try to make my case about something, I may not always put it the best way, but I'm just giving my opinions. I'm not saying I know for sure or even know much of anything at all. I am also more than willing to change my mind when new information comes along that indicates a change of mind is warranted.

I have a great deal of respect for Michał and most everyone else. When Michał posts something, I definitely read it and think, "Hmmm. He could be right. He knows what he's talking about." This time I disagree, but he still might be right, and I might be wrong.

I post so much here because this is one of my favorite subjects, I believe it concerns my own Y-chromosome ancestors, and it's just fun.

Sorry if I occasionally offend someone.

rms2
02-19-2021, 03:18 PM
It might be interesting to take up the question of the origin of Corded Ware. I wonder if we should start up a brand new thread on that subject, since this one is already so ponderously long and is really more about the spread of R1b-L51 into Europe west of the steppe by means of Corded Ware and not specifically about how Corded Ware itself came into being.

Unfortunately, I am working today. I am on a brief break right now, but I won't have much time until work is done later this afternoon.

Anyway, right now, as things currently stand, I think that "Yamnaya DNA" in Corded Ware really is Yamnaya DNA and indicates that Corded Ware people had Yamnaya ancestors. I could be wrong about that, of course, but it had to be a people who were very closely related to Yamnaya, anyway.

Apparently Nordqvist and Heyd agree with me, at least based on what it says on the recent map on page 20 of their archaeological paper, "The Forgotten Child of the Wider Corded Ware Family: Russian Fatyanovo Culture in Context", in the box where it mentions the "Transformation of Yamnaya to Corded Wares [sic] 3000-2900 BC".

etrusco
02-19-2021, 04:03 PM
This is what I wrote on this subject more than 5 years ago (and I don't know any new data that would make me change my mind):

Interesting but I 'm quite stunned that talking about origins of CWC you do not mention ( I'm not referring to the old post when obviously we were not aware of this) the R1a Z93 in Galvanesti 3500/3000 BC potentially providing a link between the westernmost steppe (Usatovo) and Fatyanovo.

Michał
02-19-2021, 06:59 PM
Interesting but I 'm quite stunned that talking about origins of CWC you do not mention ( I'm not referring to the old post when obviously we were not aware of this) the R1a Z93 in Galvanesti 3500/3000 BC potentially providing a link between the westernmost steppe (Usatovo) and Fatyanovo.
Finding Z93 in the Usatovo culture individuals not only in Romania (Glavanesti) but also, if trusting the information provided by Davidski, in Ukraine (Usatovo itself) and Bulgaria (Durankulak), makes the Yamna origin of Corded Ware even less likely than it was 5 years ago. Since Usatovo is dated to about 3500-3000 BC (as a post-TC culture strongly influenced by the steppe people) and Yamna started expanding in the North-Pontic region only about 3300 BC while moving west (or south-west) of Ukraine only about 2900 BC, it shows that Z93 derives from an earlier non-Yamna (or pre-Yamna) steppe population. Therefore, I agree with Davidski who wrote that "Corded Ware and Usatovo people, or at least males, probably did derive from the same Eneolithic steppe population".

Of course it would be absurd to think that Usatovo was a Proto-CWC population. If Proto-CWC was dominated by Z93 (which seems to be the case for Usatovo), we should expect this clade to be common in nearly all migrating CWC subgroupings, not just in Fatyanovo. Also, L151 is not significantly younger than Z93 (in fact, it seems to be a bit older) and the same is true for Z283, so one should expect the Proto-CWC population to have included a significant number of both Z283 and L151 (not to mention some minor R1a and R1b subclades associated with CWC, like CTS4385, V1636, etc.).

Most likely, the pre-Yamna steppe population ancestral to CWC and Usatovo lived somewhere in Central Ukraine, probably not far from the Middle Dnieper region. Since Z93 was present in Usatovo and did not take part in the CWC expansion directed towards north-west (ie. towards the Baltic states, Fennoscandia, Poland, Germany and further west/south-west), it seems likely that this particular clade was common among the southernmost and/or south-westernmost steppe groupings within the original pre-Proto-CWC population. Once the Yamna expansion of the Repin-related Z2103-rich population started, the ancestors of CWC were likely pushed further north (which separated them from their Z93-rich relatives from Usatovo who could have been pushed further west and south-west at about the same time), so they left the steppe zone for good, trying then to adapt to new conditions and developing a new cultural package characteristic for CWC.

rms2
02-19-2021, 07:19 PM
Of course, arguments from so-called authorities aren't that great, but here are a couple of quotes from the recent Nordqvist and Heyd archaeological paper, "The Forgotten Child of the Wider Corded Ware Family: Russian Fatyanovo Culture in Context”.

From page 1:



Fatyanovo Culture is formed by the reverse movement to the (north-)east of the Corded Ware Complex, itself established in the aftermath of the westbound spread of Yamnaya populations from the steppes.

From page 19:



The CWC undoubtedly received its formation incentive from the initial westward migrations of Yamnaya populations from the Caspian-Pontic steppe.

Here's the map from page 20 of the same paper. Note the box that says "Transformation of Yamnaya to Corded Wares [sic] c. 3000-2900 BC",

43415

rms2
02-19-2021, 07:28 PM
Personally, I think it was the interaction of Yamnaya, Tripolye, GAC, and late TRB that produced Corded Ware, probably originally in NW Ukraine, East Slovakia, and SE Poland, especially Małopolska.

Conservative estimates of the early stages of Yamnaya say 3300 BC, Mallory says 3600 BC, and in places Anthony says 3400 BC. Linderholm places the CWC-X Horizon and the initial formation of Corded Ware at 3000-2900 BC, and most conservative dates for Corded Ware place its formation around 2900-2800 BC. That's plenty of time for the transformation of what we see in Yamnaya into what we see in Corded Ware, especially when we recall that there was a lot of variety in Yamnaya. It wasn't all one, precise, monolithic thing.

etrusco
02-19-2021, 07:30 PM
Finding Z93 in the Usatovo culture individuals not only in Romania (Glavanesti) but also, if trusting the information provided by Davidski, in Ukraine (Usatovo itself) and Bulgaria (Durankulak), makes the Yamna origin of Corded Ware even less likely than it was 5 years ago. Since Usatovo is dated to about 3500-3000 BC (as a post-TC culture strongly influenced by the steppe people) and Yamna started expanding in the North-Pontic region only about 3300 BC while moving west (or south-west) of Ukraine only about 2900 BC, it shows that Z93 derives from an earlier non-Yamna (or pre-Yamna) steppe population. Therefore, I agree with Davidski who wrote that "Corded Ware and Usatovo people, or at least males, probably did derive from the same Eneolithic steppe population".

Of course it would be absurd to think that Usatovo was a Proto-CWC population. If Proto-CWC was dominated by Z93 (which seems to be the case for Usatovo), we should expect this clade to be common in nearly all migrating CWC subgroupings, not just in Fatyanovo. Also, L151 is not significantly younger than Z93 (in fact, it seems to be a bit older) and the same is true for Z283, so one should expect the Proto-CWC population to have included a significant number of both Z283 and L151 (not to mention some minor R1a and R1b subclades associated with CWC, like CTS4385, V1636, etc.).

Most likely, the pre-Yamna steppe population ancestral to CWC and Usatovo lived somewhere in Central Ukraine, probably not far from the Middle Dnieper region. Since Z93 was present in Usatovo and did not take part in the CWC expansion directed towards north-west (ie. towards the Baltic states, Fennoscandia, Poland, Germany and further west/south-west), it seems likely that this particular clade was common among the southernmost and/or south-westernmost steppe groupings within the original pre-Proto-CWC population. Once the Yamna expansion of the Repin-related Z2103-rich population started, the ancestors of CWC were likely pushed further north (which separated them from their Z93-rich relatives from Usatovo who could have been pushed further west and south-west at about the same time), so they left the steppe zone for good, trying then to adapt to new conditions and developing a new cultural package characteristic for CWC.

Overall I agree with what you said expecially the importance of the steppe west of Dneper for the expansion of the groups that went further west in Europe. The problem is that so far we have a Dereivka sample that doesn't look ancestral to the EBA steppe profile typical of Yamnaya and CWC. It has too much GAC ( 42%) and too low Progress (30%). The EBA steppe profile comes out with a dramatic drop of EEF and a proportionate rise in Progress while the original PIE cluster ( Ukraine HG ) remains fixed at around 25/30%. For your theory to be true however we are still short in finding a reservoir of R1a in central western Ukraine.

Michał
02-19-2021, 07:32 PM
Here's the map from page 20 of the same paper. Note the box that says "Transformation of Yamnaya to Corded Wares [sic] c. 3000-2900 BC",

43415
It is worth noticing that while the Yamna movement west/south-west of Ukraine produced many hundreds (if not thousands) of typical Yamna kurgans in Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary, there is not a single Yamna kurgan associated with the putative simultaneous movement of Yamna people in Poland, Belarus, Baltic states or Germany. The same applies of course to the so-called Yamna package.

rms2
02-19-2021, 07:37 PM
It is worth noticing that while the Yamna movement west/south-west of Ukraine produced many hundreds (if not thousands) of typical Yamna kurgans in Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary, there is not a single Yamna kurgan associated with the putative simultaneous movement of Yamna people in Poland, Belarus, Baltic states or Germany. The same applies of course to the so-called Yamna package.

But apparently there are burials at Hubinek in Małopolska, Poland, dated to 3000-2900 BC, that mark the transition from Yamnaya-style burials to those of Corded Ware.

This is from the recent Linderholm et al paper, Supplementary Information, pages 2-3:



At the same time, the possibility that steppe communities dispersed into Małopolska regions was indicated - starting from the turn of the fourth and third millennium BCE. This phenomenon, called the "CWC-X horizon" [10, 13, 14], would precede the rather static formalisation of the CWC barrow ritual, i.e. the A horizon. Until recently, this was only a theoretical idea. Recently, this has been confirmed with the discovery of graves with skeletons coloured with ochre in burials at site 2 in Hubinek, dated to 3000-2900 BCE [15]: supplement; see also [16]. The barrow burials of the older phase of the CWC - both from Małopolska and from other regions of Europe - have not been the subject of archaeogenetic research so far.

rms2
02-19-2021, 07:43 PM
I think we really need to establish what we mean by "Yamnaya".

What steppe pastoralist culture was there other than Yamnaya, around the same time, that could have contributed the autosomal DNA to Corded Ware that is usually characterized as Yamnaya DNA?

Coldmountains
02-19-2021, 07:44 PM
Finding Z93 in the Usatovo culture individuals not only in Romania (Glavanesti) but also, if trusting the information provided by Davidski, in Ukraine (Usatovo itself) and Bulgaria (Durankulak), makes the Yamna origin of Corded Ware even less likely than it was 5 years ago. Since Usatovo is dated to about 3500-3000 BC (as a post-TC culture strongly influenced by the steppe people) and Yamna started expanding in the North-Pontic region only about 3300 BC while moving west (or south-west) of Ukraine only about 2900 BC, it shows that Z93 derives from an earlier non-Yamna (or pre-Yamna) steppe population. Therefore, I agree with Davidsky who wrote that "Corded Ware and Usatovo people, or at least males, probably did derive from the same Eneolithic steppe population".

Of course it would be absurd to think that Usatovo was a Proto-CWC population. If Proto-CWC was dominated by Z93 (which seems to be the case for Usatovo), we should expect this clade to be common in nearly all migrating CWC subgroupings, not just in Fatyanovo. Also, L151 is not significantly younger than Z93 (in fact, it seems to be a bit older) and the same is true for Z283, so one should expect the Proto-CWC population to have included a significant number of both Z283 and L151 (not to mention some minor R1a and R1b subclades associated with CWC, like CTS4385, V1636, etc.).

Most likely, the pre-Yamna steppe population ancestral to CWC and Usatovo lived somewhere in Central-West Ukraine, probably not far from the Middle Dnieper region. Since Z93 was present in Usatovo and did not take part in the CWC expansion directed towards north-west (ie. towards the Baltic states, Fennoscandia, Poland, Germany and further west/south-west), it seems likely that this particular clade was common among the southernmost and/or south-westernmost steppe groupings within the original pre-Proto-CWC population. Once the Yamna expansion of the Repin-related Z2103-rich population started, the ancestors of CWC were likely pushed further north (which separated them from their Z93-rich relatives from Usatovo who could have been pushed further west and south-west at about the same time), so they left the steppe zone for good, trying then to adapt to new conditions and developing a new cultural package characteristic for CWC.

I recently heard the Romania_EBA samples are not radiocarbon-dated and some had doubts about the early dating including Davidski. Their autosomal profile is definitely unusual and hard to model definitely not ancestral to CWC at least the sample of which we have Global25 coordinates. Either some mix between something Yamnaya-like and something Steppe Maykop-like or some mix of something Steppe_MLBA with Steppe_EBA and WSHG but I can not say what of this is more logical. Unlikely from the Scythian period or so because of lacking Mongol_N or Kra_BA-like ancestry.

Target: ROU_BA:S11955
Distance: 2.3268% / 0.02326831
54.0 Corded_Ware_POL_early
22.6 RUS_Maykop
19.8 KAZ_Botai
3.6 UKR_Trypillia

Target: ROU_BA:S11955
Distance: 2.2620% / 0.02262037
63.4 RUS_Progress_En
20.4 UKR_Trypillia
15.6 KAZ_Botai
0.6 UKR_N

Target: ROU_BA:S11955
Distance: 2.2339% / 0.02233938
43.0 Corded_Ware_POL_early
22.6 RUS_Maykop
19.8 KAZ_Botai
14.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA

Target: ROU_BA:S11955
Distance: 2.1353% / 0.02135298
45.8 RUS_Potapovka_MLBA_o
20.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
20.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o2
13.2 RUS_Maykop
0.8 MNG_North_N
0.2 UKR_N

Distance to: ROU_BA:S11955
0.04266253 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o2
0.04296424 KAZ_Dali_MLBA
0.04697995 KAZ_Kyzlbulak_MLBA2
0.04778608 RUS_Potapovka_MLBA
0.04796732 MNG_Afanasievo_1
0.04868143 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
0.05018216 Sarmatian_KAZ
0.05137526 Sarmatian_RUS_Caspian_steppe
0.05139122 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul_o
0.05188129 MNG_Afanasievo_1_contam
0.05229223 RUS_Catacomb
0.05297863 UKR_Catacomb
0.05299793 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals

Michał
02-19-2021, 07:48 PM
Overall I agree with what you said expecially the importance of the steppe west of Dneper for the expansion of the groups that went further west in Europe. The problem is that so far we have a Dereivka sample that doesn't look ancestral to the EBA steppe profile typical of Yamnaya and CWC. It has too much GAC ( 42%) and too low Progress (30%). The EBA steppe profile comes out with a dramatic drop of EEF and a proportionate rise in Progress while the original PIE cluster ( Ukraine HG ) remains fixed at around 25/30%. For your theory to be true however we are still short in finding a reservoir of R1a in central western Ukraine.
Myabe Davidski is right when suspecting that the steppe population ancestral to CWC lived further east, ie. east of the Dnieper river (or even close to the Lower Don but still west of Proto-Yamna). From there they could have been expanding east (starting from before 3500 BC), only to be pushed north (or west in the case of Usatovo) by their Yamna relatives shortly thereafter. If so, then the Proto-CWC population in Central-Northern Ukraine should be limited to a relatively narrow time frame between let's say 3500 and 3000 BC.

rms2
02-19-2021, 07:56 PM
Myabe Davidski is right when suspecting that the steppe population ancestral to CWC lived further east, ie. east of the Dnieper river (or even close to the Lower Don but still west of Proto-Yamna). From there they could have been expanding east (starting from before 3500 BC), only to be pushed north (or west in the case of Usatovo) by their Yamna relatives shortly thereafter. If so, then the Proto-CWC population in Central-Northern Ukraine should be limited to a relatively narrow time frame between let's say 3500 and 3000 BC.

Not to pick a fight, but what population like that, during that same period, would not itself be classed as Yamnaya?

It seems to me Yamnaya came in a lot of flavors and spanned most of the Eurasian steppe starting around 3600-3300 BC.

What wasn't Yamnaya on the steppe at that time other than the Neolithic farmers on its western fringes?

rms2
02-19-2021, 08:07 PM
This is from Mallory, In Search of the Indo-Europeans, page 211:



The final Eneolithic culture of the Pontic-Caspian region, and the last cultural entity which may putatively be assigned a Proto-Indo-European date, is the Yamnaya (Pit-grave) culture. The major floruit of this culture, substantiated by more than seventy radiocarbon dates, is about 3600-2200 BC. Its territory embraced the entire Pontic-Caspian from the Bug and Dniester rivers on the west across to the Ural and Emba rivers on the east. Such a territory, stretching 3,000 kilometres across, is so vast that many archaeologists accept the terminology of Nikolai Merpert and refer to a Yamnaya cultural-historical area rather than to a single culture.

The immediate origins of the Yamnaya culture are complicated and still very much disputed, although there is general agreement that both the Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk cultures were the primary foundations for the Yamnaya groups of their respective regions. While these certainly underlie some of the local Yamnaya variants, it should be noted, however, that Merpert envisages nine different regional variants in this vast continuum.

etrusco
02-19-2021, 08:11 PM
I think we really need to establish what we mean by "Yamnaya".

What steppe pastoralist culture was there other than Yamnaya, around the same time, that could have contributed the autosomal DNA to Corded Ware that is usually characterized as Yamnaya DNA?

That is from a genetic point whatever population is ancestral to CWC it needs be transformed into a Yamnya one because at the end CWC east and CWC west is just Yamnaya + additional EEF.

rms2
02-19-2021, 08:19 PM
From Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language, page 304:



The Yamnaya horizon was the first more or less unified ritual, economic, and material culture to spread across the entire Pontic-Caspian steppe region, but it was never completely homogeneous even materially. At the beginning it already contained two major variants, on the lower Don and lower Volga, and, as it expanded, it developed other regional variants, which is why most archaeologists are reluctant to call it the Yamnaya "culture".

rms2
02-19-2021, 08:22 PM
That is from a genetic point whatever population is ancestral to CWC it needs be transformed into a Yamnya one because at the end CWC east and CWC west is just Yamnaya + additional EEF.

Sure, but you're missing the point. What other steppe cultural horizon was there at that time that could have supplied the "Yamnaya DNA" to baby Corded Ware other than Yamnaya itself?

I think Yamnaya was kind of a big steppe blob that incorporated a lot of different regional variants, some of which had burial rites not too far off Corded Ware.

rms2
02-19-2021, 08:46 PM
So (sorry for rattling on), maybe Michał and I don't actually disagree (much). I would just say the population he's talking about that went into the making of Corded Ware is a variety of Yamnaya, because, following the authors I have read, Yamnaya was the whole show on the steppe at that time.

Where we would quibble a little is that I think the Prut/Dniester valley route up from the NW coast of the Black Sea was the main contributor to the genesis of Corded Ware.

I certainly don't think many people waded through the Pripyat Marshes. They had to go around them to the south or the north.

alan
02-19-2021, 08:53 PM
Sure, but you're missing the point. What other steppe cultural horizon was there at that time that could have supplied the "Yamnaya DNA" to baby Corded Ware other than Yamnaya itself?

I think Yamnaya was kind of a big steppe blob that incorporated a lot of different regional variants, some of which had burial rites not too far off Corded Ware.

Yeah that is a good point. Around 3000BC, Yamnaya and its variants absolutely dominated the steppe from east to west and into the Lower Danube. Some of the smaller steppe groups look too southerly/ close to the Black Sea shore to be likely sources of Yamnaya type DNA forming into CW to the north of the Carpathians. It really seems unlikely that there is any steppe source for Yamnaya type DNA in CW other than Yamnaya itself given the date CW arose and the geography. Simply because there was no other genetically or culturally classic steppe type culture in the forest steppe middle stretches of the rivers of Ukraine c. 3000BC that I can think of.

alan
02-19-2021, 08:59 PM
One thing that puzzles me is Z93 in Usatovo near the Lower Danube/NW corner of the Black Sea area, then reappearing in the Fatyanovo-Abashevo-Sintashta chain of CW derived cultures after 2700BC. Presumably it was driven north from some of its locations on the Ukraine rivers by Yamnaya. Certainly the sequence in some of the barrow complexes seems to read like that Usatovo was replaced by Yamnaya. I am not an expert in R1a so would appreciate guidance.

etrusco
02-19-2021, 09:07 PM
One thing that puzzles me is Z93 in Usatovo near the Lower Danube/NW corner of the Black Sea area, then reappearing in the Fatyanovo-Abashevo-Sintashta chain of CW derived cultures after 2700BC. Presumably it was driven north from some of its locations on the Ukraine rivers by Yamnaya. Certainly the sequence in some of the barrow complexes seems to read like that Usatovo was replaced by Yamnaya. I am not an expert in R1a so would appreciate guidance.

Another thing that would be interesting to deepen at least for people like me that cannot go full on sublades and stuff like that is to make a resumee of all the R1a we have so far in eastern europe and see which is ancestral to the R1a M417 and offsprings that we see in CW. We have so far R1a from Karelia, North western Russia and neolithic Ukraine and IIRC a R1a in Kvaklinsk. And rumours about R1a in the Lower Don also.

rms2
02-19-2021, 09:07 PM
Yeah that is a good point. Around 3000BC, Yamnaya and its variants absolutely dominated the steppe from east to west and into the Lower Danube. Some of the smaller steppe groups look too southerly/ close to the Black Sea shore to be likely sources of Yamnaya type DNA forming into CW to the north of the Carpathians. It really seems unlikely that there is any steppe source for Yamnaya type DNA in CW other than Yamnaya itself given the date CW arose and the geography. Simply because there was no other genetically or culturally classic steppe type culture in the forest steppe middle stretches of the rivers of Ukraine c. 3000BC that I can think of.

Except that it seems to me there is a lot of archaeological evidence of movement from the NW Black Sea coast up the Prut/Dniester interfluve all the way to Małopolska and Volhynia.

That could even be the source of the connection you're seeking between the R1a-Z93 in Usatovo and later Fatyanovo: up the Prut/Dniester highway into Corded Ware and subsequently northeast into Fatyanovo.

Of course, I'm mainly interested in R1b-L51.

rms2
02-19-2021, 09:10 PM
Another thing that would be interesting to deepen at least for people like me that cannot go full on sublades and stuff like that is to make a resumee of all the R1a we have so far in eastern europe and see which is ancestral to the R1a M417 and offsprings that we see in CW. We have so far R1a from Karelia, North western Russia and neolithic Ukraine and IIRC a R1a in Kvaklinsk. When it comes to R1b every detail is investigated full and large. Itis time to have a deeper look to R1a I think

I think R1a is pretty well covered - in the R1a subforum. Don't expect it to be top-of-the-list here, not that we have anything against our distant cousins.

This is the "R1b General" subforum, after all.

rms2
02-19-2021, 09:31 PM
. . . And rumours about R1a in the Lower Don also.

That's interesting, because I have heard similar rumors about ancient R1b-L51 in the same location. Can't name the source though.

razyn
02-19-2021, 09:31 PM
I think R1a is pretty well covered - in the R1a subforum. Don't expect it to be top-of-the-list here, not that we have anything against our distant cousins.

This is the "R1b General" subforum, after all.

More to the point (IMO), this thread is titled L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware.

rms2
02-19-2021, 09:33 PM
More to the point (IMO), this thread is titled L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware.

True. We aren't likely to say, "Okay. We're done. Let's talk about R1a, or I-M253."

etrusco
02-19-2021, 09:40 PM
More to the point (IMO), this thread is titled L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware.

Get the point but I think we are going a little bit nominalistic here.They are closely connected questions. Because CWC has an initial stimulus from R1a folks. There is a connection. Objection overruled

Coldmountains
02-19-2021, 09:43 PM
From Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language, page 304:

Another reason why I also think Yamnaya is not PIE and a bit exaggerated in importance is that we already had almost contemporary with early Yamnaya Yamnaya-like people in Afanasievo, which likely spoke languages ancestral to Tocharian. Considering that Hittite seems to even more diverged from core PIE than Tocharian I would think that Proto-Hittite diverged even earlier than Afanasievo derived Proto-Tocharian. What pushes the formation of PIE and likely the Steppe_EBA-like profile to around 4000-4500 B.C if not earlier. This would be the Sredny Stog period, which so far is poorly sampled and afaik there are rumours about Yamnaya-like people from this period more eastern than the currently published samples.

rms2
02-19-2021, 09:51 PM
Get the point but I think we are going a little bit nominalistic here.They are closely connected questions. Because CWC has an initial stimulus from R1a folks. There is a connection. Objection overruled

We don't know which Y-DNA haplogroup provided the initial stimulus to Corded Ware. We really don't.

I think some tribes were R1a-M417, and some were R1b-L51. Maybe there were others that were even something else.

I'm looking forward to the rumored paper about Single Grave Corded Ware that is supposed to show that R1b-L51 was a Single Grave marker, but we know there was at least one R1a-M417 in Single Grave, and at least one R1b-V1636.

Michał
02-19-2021, 10:07 PM
But apparently there are burials at Hubinek in Małopolska, Poland, dated to 3000-2900 BC, that mark the transition from Yamnaya-style burials to those of Corded Ware.

This is from the recent Linderholm et al paper, Supplementary Information, pages 2-3:
Let's take a closer look at that quote from Linderholm et al.:


At the same time, the possibility that steppe communities dispersed into Małopolska regions was indicated - starting from the turn of the fourth and third millennium BCE. This phenomenon, called the "CWC-X horizon" [10, 13, 14], would precede the rather static formalisation of the CWC barrow ritual, i.e. the A horizon. Until recently, this was only a theoretical idea. Recently, this has been confirmed with the discovery of graves with skeletons coloured with ochre in burials at site 2 in Hubinek, dated to 3000-2900 BCE [15]: supplement; see also [16]. The barrow burials of the older phase of the CWC - both from Małopolska and from other regions of Europe - have not been the subject of archaeogenetic research so far.

It is worth noting that Linderholm admits that CWC-X has long been considered only a "theoretical idea" and let me also remind you that the CWC skeletons dated to 3000-2900 BC have also been found further north, including the Baltic states and Kuyavia (see Wencel, 2015, An Absolute Chronological Framework for the Central-Eastern European Eneolithic). Thus, what makes Linderholm more convinced that this particular grave from Hubinek represents the original steppe-derived population CWC-X is the fact that the skeletons were coloured with ochre, which was indeed very common on the steppe. However, here is what Piotr Włodarczak writes about the ochre in his paper from 2014 (The Traits of Early-Bronze Pontic Cultures in the Development of Old Upland Corded Ware (Małopolska Groups) and Złota Culture Communities):


Sprinkling bodies with ochre, a practice characteristic of the rites of North Pontic Early Bronze cultures, is found in Małopolska in single features only. Only once was it observed on the left bank of the Vistula: Koniusza, site 1, grave 3 [Tunia 1979: 50]. It has not been recorded in ZC [Złota Culture] cemeteries yet, while on the Lublin Upland the sprinkling of bodies with ochre has been recorded recently in the course of the investigations of a barrow on site 2, Hubinek, the Sokal Ridge. Especially large amounts of ochre covered the skeleton from feature 9, encircled by a ditch. More often than in Małopolska, ochre was found in CWC graves in western Ukraine, i.e. areas closer to the North Pontic area [Machnik 1979a: 55, 60]. Still more numerous, graves with ochre are found in Middle Dnieper culture cemeteries [Artemenko 1967: 61, 82]. In Małopolska, therefore, instances of its use merit special attention – as a distinctly foreign element in the local ritual.

All this shows that the steppe influences seem to have been much stronger east of Poland, and more specifically in Northern Ukraine (or in the Middle Dnieper region). If so, can we then conclude that it was rather the Middle Dnieper region where the Proto-CWC population (and CWC-X culture) should be placed? This would be indeed the most logical conclusion if not the fact (already mentioned in one of your earlier posts) that the radiocarbon dates suggest that MDC started a bit later than CWC further west, with the oldest available radiocarbon dates for MDC pointing only to about 2600-2700 BC. However, it should also be noted that all radiocarbon dates for MDC we have at the moment are for the so-called middle stage (or classical) MDC, and not a single skeleton from the earlier stage of MDC (a stage dated only typologically, and thus not very accurately) was dated using the radiocarbon method.

Please take a look at this scheme from the paper by Szmyt:

https://i.ibb.co/WPJM7HJ/MDC-and-Yamna-dates.jpg


Not to pick a fight, but what population like that, during that same period, would not itself be classed as Yamnaya?

It seems to me Yamnaya came in a lot of flavors and spanned most of the Eurasian steppe starting around 3600-3300 BC.

The North-Central region of Ukraine I was talking about is north from the steppe, so this region was only occasionally visited by the Yamna migrants from the steppe.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Katja-Winger/publication/285673711/figure/fig1/AS:[email protected]/Geographical-range-of-the-Yamnaya-Culture-underlying-map-by-Doris-Bordon.png

When talking about the late 4th millennium BC, the forest-steppe and forest parts of Northern Ukraine west of the Dnieper river were occupied mostly by some Late Tripillian groups (like the Gorodsk, Kasperivtsy/Gordinesti, west Volhynian, Sofievka, Kosenivka and Brynzeny groups). In SE Poland and in the Upper Dniester region there were TRB people, partially overlapping with CT and with the Globular Amphora groups expanding south-east from Central Poland (starting from about 3000 BC, so more or less simultaneously with the northward/northwestward expansion of CWC). North of the above-mentioned Neolitic populations (CT, TRB, GAC) along the Pripyat river and further north there was the subneolithic Neman culture in SW Belarus and the remnants of the Dnieper-Donets people (Dnieper-Donets III) who previosuly lived further south and were likely the local EHG-rich substrate for the Sredny Stog culture. Unfortunately, I don't know much about people who lived further east (ie. east of the Dnieper river) in th late 4th millennium BC in the forest/forest-steppe zone.

razyn
02-19-2021, 10:11 PM
Get the point but I think we are going a little bit nominalistic here.They are closely connected questions. Because CWC has an initial stimulus from R1a folks. There is a connection.

You are confused. What's in a nomen is altogether different from what's in a haplogroup. And R1a ain't in L51. We have been told for quite a while that Corded Ware was R1a; and that is not the whole story, it's just one that got discovered most easily. The OP here, rms2, is trying to have a discussion of the new stuff. R1a in Corded Ware is old stuff. Kindly let us talk about the thread subject.


Objection overruled

As if you were the judge, here? Piffle.

rms2
02-19-2021, 10:13 PM
Of course, the Middle Dnieper culture is supposed to have been derived from Corded Ware itself and not to have preceded Corded Ware.

It would be cool if Middle Dnieper had come before Corded Ware, because then we would have a ready source for Corded Ware, except it was the opposite.

etrusco
02-19-2021, 10:13 PM
Another reason why I also think Yamnaya is not PIE and a bit exaggerated in importance is that we already had almost contemporary with early Yamnaya Yamnaya-like people in Afanasievo, which likely spoke languages ancestral to Tocharian. Considering that Hittite seems to even more diverged from core PIE than Tocharian I would think that Proto-Hittite diverged even earlier than Afanasievo derived Proto-Tocharian. What pushes the formation of PIE and likely the Steppe_EBA-like profile to around 4000-4500 B.C if not earlier. This would be the Sredny Stog period, which so far is poorly sampled and afaik there are rumours about Yamnaya-like people from this period more eastern than the currently published samples.

Agree but if you go back in time to 4500 the likely PIE area ( from the Dneper to the Lower Don) will turn out to be predominantly Ukraine neolithic like ( mostly WHG/EGH) with a sizeable amount of Progress. Something like this :

UKR_N_I1738
RUS_Progress_En 0.196±0.035
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG 0.414±0.039
UKR_Meso 0.390±0.056
chisq 7.913
tail prob 0.442006
Full output

Perhaps the lower Don will be higher in Progress and the zone that will become the Sredni Stog western area will be only Ukraine Neo/Meso like.

rms2
02-19-2021, 10:17 PM
You are confused. What's in a nomen is altogether different from what's in a haplogroup. And R1a ain't in L51. We have been told for quite a while that Corded Ware was R1a; and that is not the whole story, it's just one that got discovered most easily. The OP here, rms2, is trying to have a discussion of the new stuff. R1a in Corded Ware is old stuff. Kindly let us talk about the thread subject.

As if you were the judge, here? Piffle.

Yes, and the initial run-up of R1a in Corded Ware, and my sense of awe at the writings of Marija Gimbutas, convinced me that Beaker was the product of the mixing of Vucedol and Yamnaya in the Carpathian basin. Now I am pretty well convinced - speaking of changing my mind based on new evidence - that Beaker was derived from Single Grave Corded Ware.

Anyway, this is the R1b General subforum, and complaints that we're not being fair to R1a here are just, well, bullshit, to be frank.

BTW, I have been around long enough to remember when Spencer Wells of the Genographic Project pronounced R1a the Indo-European Y-DNA haplogroup par excellence, and when everyone thought R1b of whatever kind formed the "cast of thousands" native to western Europe and trampled upon by successive waves of invaders. Thus everyone thought that when Yamnaya Y-DNA finally appeared, it would all be R1a.

We know how that went.

etrusco
02-19-2021, 10:30 PM
Yes, and the initial run-up of R1a in Corded Ware, and my sense of awe at the writings of Marija Gimbutas, convinced me that Beaker was the product of the mixing of Vucedol and Yamnaya in the Carpathian basin. Now I am pretty well convinced - speaking of changing my mind based on new evidence - that Beaker was derived from Single Grave Corded Ware.

Anyway, this is the R1b General subforum, and complaints that we're not being fair to R1a here are just, well, bullshit, to be frank.

BTW, I have been around long enough to remember when Spencer Wells of the Genographic Project pronounced R1a the Indo-European Y-DNA haplogroup par excellence, and when everyone thought R1b of whatever kind formed the "cast of thousands" native to western Europe and trampled upon by successive waves of invaders. Thus everyone thought that when Yamnaya Y-DNA finally appeared, it would all be R1a.

We know how that went.

It is not my case. I was not around back then. I'm not R1a ( I'm R1b of course as most of Lombards).

rms2
02-19-2021, 10:33 PM
It is not my case. I was not around back then. I'm not R1a ( I'm R1b of course as most of Lombards).

Good for you. You ought to post your Y-DNA haplogroup in your profile.

I wasn't trying to single you out, but everything I wrote is true, even the stuff you weren't around for.

Michał
02-19-2021, 10:37 PM
Of course, the Middle Dnieper culture is supposed to have been derived from Corded Ware itself and not to have preceded Corded Ware.

It would be cool if Middle Dnieper had come before Corded Ware, because then we would have a ready source for Corded Ware, except it was the opposite.
As I said, the "classical" stage of MDC (ie. the one for which we have the radiocarbon dates) is not old enough to be the source of CWC elsewhere. However, I wouldn't be so sure about the erlier stages of MDC/CWC that are much harder to classify, as they have not yet developed the local features seen in MDC only (and differentiating MDC from all remaining CWC groups).

It is worth mentioning the the CWC sites in the Sokal Ridge (in Eastern Poland, close to the Ukrainian border), dated mostly to 2600-2300 BC (except the single grave in Hubinek dated to 3000-2900 BC) show clear signs of foreign migrants coming from the East, and more specifically from MDC (with the "classical" MDC pottery), so this shows that by about 2600 BC the Middle Dnieper Culture was not only fully developed (producing the typical pottery from the classical period) but it was also populous enough to produce new waves of people migrating east to Poland, and we shoudn't forget about the recently published Fatyanovo skeletons (with the earliest ones dated to about 2700 BC) that used to have been commonly considered as originating from MDC.

Coldmountains
02-19-2021, 10:41 PM
Of course, the Middle Dnieper culture is supposed to have been derived from Corded Ware itself and not to have preceded Corded Ware.

It would be cool if Middle Dnieper had come before Corded Ware, because then we would have a ready source for Corded Ware, except it was the opposite.

well considering that Fatyanovo was already seen by many archaeologists as Middle Dnjepr derived and genetics now strongly point to that because of high GAC/TRB-like admix and R1a-Z93. We very likely will see both Steppe_EBA and Steppe_MLBA/Late CWC-like tribes around 3000-3500 B.C in MDC. Saag et al. 2021 also emphasized that the admixture with EFs populations took place around 3000 B.c so there were likey Steppe_EBA/Early CWC-like groups in Middle Dnjepr around 3000-3500 B.C but with more diversity of R1 clades than in later CWC subgroups.


The strongest connections for Fatyanovo Culture in archaeological material can be seen with the Middle Dnieper Culture (23, 48) spread in present-day
Belarus and Ukraine (49, 50). The territory of what is now Ukraine is where the most eastern individuals with European EF ancestry and the most western Yamnaya Culture individuals are from based on
published genomic data (13, 51) (Fig. 1 and data S1). Furthermore, archaeological finds show that LBK reached western Ukraine around 5300 BCE (52), and the Yamnaya complex (burial mounds)
arrived in southeastern Europe around 3000 BCE and spread further as far as Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, and Hungary (53)



We estimated the time of admixture for Yamnaya and EF populations to form the Fatyanovo Culture population using DATES
(37) as 13 ± 2 generations for Yamnaya Samara + Globular Amphora
and 19 ± 5 generations for Yamnaya Samara + Trypillia. If a generation time of 25 years and the average calibrated date of the
Fatyanovo individuals (~2600 cal BCE) are used, this equates to the
admixture happening ~3100 to 2900 BCE.

rms2
02-19-2021, 10:58 PM
As I said, the "classical" stage of MDC (ie. the one for which we have the radiocarbon dates) is not old enough to be the source of CWC elsewhere. However, I wouldn't be so sure about the erlier stages of MDC/CWC that are much harder to classify, as they have not yet developed the local features seen in MDC only (and differentiating MDC form all remaining CWC groups).

It is worth mentioning the the CWC sites in the Sokal Ridge (in Eastern Poland, close to the Ukrainian border), dated mostly to 2600-2300 BC (except the single grave in Hubinek dated to 3000-2900 BC) show clear signs of foreign migrants coming from the East, and more specifically from MDC (with the "classical" MDC pottery), so this shows that by about 2600 BC the Middle Dnieper Culture was not only fully developed (producing the typical pottery from the classical period) but it was also populous enough to produce new waves of people migrating east to Poland, and we shoudn't forget about the recently published Fatyanovo skeletons (with the earliest ones dated to about 2700 BC) that used to have been commonly considered as originating from MDC.

I don't have a problem with that. In fact, that's what Linderholm pointed out, i.e., that those R1b Corded Ware guys buried in Catacombnaya-style graves in Małopolska were probably ultimately of eastern origin (maybe not they themselves, but perhaps their grandfathers or great-grandfathers), but Linderholm directed our attention to Catacombnaya on the NW Black Sea coast.

I think there very well could have been multiple routes for Yamnaya people into the womb of Corded Ware. I do think it most likely the route from the Dnieper led straight across Ukraine to Volhynia and Małopolska rather than up north first and then west through Belarus. I don't see why a route through Belarus, thick with forest and with the Pripyat Marshes in the way, would suggest itself to anyone.

BTW, Linderholm said there are CWC-X Horizon burials (plural) dated to 3000-2900 BC at Hubinek, not just one.

From Linderholm et al, pages 2-3:



At the same time, the possibility that steppe communities dispersed into Małopolska regions was indicated - starting from the turn of the fourth and third millennium BCE. This phenomenon, called the "CWC-X horizon" [10, 13, 14], would precede the rather static formalisation of the CWC barrow ritual, i.e. the A horizon. Until recently, this was only a theoretical idea. Recently, this has been confirmed with the discovery of graves with skeletons coloured with ochre in burials at site 2 in Hubinek, dated to 3000-2900 BCE [15]: supplement; see also [16]. The barrow burials of the older phase of the CWC - both from Małopolska and from other regions of Europe - have not been the subject of archaeogenetic research so far.

rms2
02-19-2021, 11:06 PM
From page 21 of the Linderholm et al Supplementary Information:



In the perspective of archaeogenetic analyses, the chronological relation of CWC niche graves to the kurgan cultural complexes from the northern Pontic zone, and above all to the Catacomb culture, is important. The absolute dating presented above unambiguously indicates that the graveyards of the younger phase of the CWC are younger than the graves of the Yamnaya culture. However, they correspond to the graves of the older phase of the Catacomb culture in the north-west area of the Black Sea region. Significant seems to be also the chronological relation of examined materials to the cemeteries of Afanasievo culture from western Siberia.

Michał
02-20-2021, 12:16 AM
I think there very well could have been multiple routes for Yamnaya people into the womb of Corded Ware.

This reminds me of Jean Manco who strongly believed this was indeed the case. Personally, I consider it extremely unlikely for several different groupings of the original steppe Yamna people to have been entering the forest zone independently from each other in many different regions and in every case undergoing exactely the same transformation from the original Yamna package to a new strongly unified Corded Ware package.



I do think it most likely the route from the Dnieper led straight across Ukraine to Volhynia and Małopolska rather than up north first and then west through Belarus. I don't see why a route through Belarus, thick with forest and with the Pripyat Marshes in the way, would suggest itself to anyone.

On the other hand, both the SE Poland and the relatively long Prut-Dniester basin in Moldavia and Ukraine were quite densly populated by the Neolithic people from at least three different EEF-rich cultures (CT, TRB and GAC), so it is hard to imagine that such a movement of the hypothetical Proto-CWC Yamna people northward would result in producing a significant fraction of non-admixed people found as far north as Latvia and Greater Poland (which is what we clearly see in the aDNA results from those regions). By contrast, this could have been much easier to accomplish if the Proto-CWC steppe-derived population reached the forest zone east of the Dnieper river and then moved north and north-west towards the Baltic and Polish Lowland while only partially mixing with the Neolithic people living on the other side of Middle Dnieper.

The below map is from Kośko, 2014 (Traits of "Early Bronze" Pontic Cultures in the Development of Lowland and Eastern European Forest Cultural Environments in the Baltic Southern Drainage. An outline of the state research):
https://i.ibb.co/Fggt1n6/Yamnaya-Ko-ko-2014.png



BTW, Linderholm said there are CWC-X Horizon burials (plural) dated to 3000-2900 BC at Hubinek, not just one.

She uses the plural form but gives reference to the paper by Juras et al. where three different skeletons from Hubinek were analyzed and only one (poz232) was dated to such an early period.

MitchellSince1893
02-20-2021, 12:56 AM
Michal quote excerpt



Quote Originally Posted by Piotr Włodarczak
Sprinkling bodies with ochre, a practice characteristic of the rites of North Pontic Early Bronze cultures, is found in Małopolska in single features only. Only once was it observed on the left bank of the Vistula: Koniusza, site 1, grave 3 [Tunia 1979: 50]. It has not been recorded in ZC [Złota Culture] cemeteries yet, while on the Lublin Upland the sprinkling of bodies with ochre has been recorded recently in the course of the investigations of a barrow on site 2, Hubinek, the Sokal Ridge. Especially large amounts of ochre covered the skeleton from feature 9, encircled by a ditch. More often than in Małopolska, ochre was found in CWC graves in western Ukraine, i.e. areas closer to the North Pontic area [Machnik 1979a: 55, 60]. Still more numerous, graves with ochre are found in Middle Dnieper culture cemeteries [Artemenko 1967: 61, 82]. In Małopolska, therefore, instances of its use merit special attention – as a distinctly foreign element in the local ritual.
All this shows that the steppe influences seem to have been much stronger east of Poland, and more specifically in Northern Ukraine (or in the Middle Dnieper region). If so, can we then conclude that it was rather the Middle Dnieper region where the Proto-CWC population (and CWC-X culture) should be placed? This would be indeed the most logical conclusion if not the fact (already mentioned in one of your earlier posts) that the radiocarbon dates suggest that MDC started a bit later than CWC further west, with the oldest available radiocarbon dates for MDC pointing only to about 2600-2700 BC. However, it should also be noted that all radiocarbon dates for MDC we have at the moment are for the so-called middle stage (or classical) MDC, and not a single skeleton from the earlier stage of MDC (a stage dated only typologically, and thus not very accurately) was dated using the radiocarbon method.

Please take a look at this scheme from the paper by Szmyt:




That is very interesting. The scheme show this early Middle Dnieper culture starting around 3300 BC and ending around 3000 BC. The flat grave practicing Sredny Stog culture were in this area right before this (3500 BC)

An old map of mine from couple of years ago.https://i.pinimg.com/originals/04/25/2e/04252e2af93cdd7a30d7d4e51d6cfcd8.png

rms2
02-20-2021, 01:24 AM
This reminds me of Jean Manco who strongly believed this was indeed the case. Personally, I consider it extremely unlikely for several different groupings of the original steppe Yamna people to have been entering the forest zone independently from each other in many different regions and in every case undergoing exactely the same transformation from the original Yamna package to a new strongly unified Corded Ware package.

Why? Already we know that some of them were R1a-M417 and some others were R1b-L51, and they weren't in the same tribe or clan. Why are multiple routes any more unlikely than a single route?



On the other hand, both the SE Poland and the relatively long Prut-Dniester basin in Moldavia and Ukraine were quite densly populated by the Neolithic people from at least three different EEF-rich cultures (CT, TRB and GAC), so it is hard to imagine that such a movement of the hypothetical Proto-CWC Yamna people northward would result in producing a significant fraction of non-admixed people found as far north as Latvia and Greater Poland (which is what we clearly see in the aDNA results from those regions). By contrast, this could have been much easier to accomplish if the Proto-CWC steppe-derived population reached the forest zone east of the Dnieper river and then moved north and north-west towards the Baltic and Polish Lowland while only partially mixing with the Neolithic people living on the other side of Middle Dnieper . . .

Except that we know from archaeological evidence that the Prut/Dniester interfluve was a regular route northward for steppe people. Perhaps the Neolithic decline favored that. Perhaps the steppe people were partly responsible for it.

What evidence is there that steppe pastoralist people moved north into Belarus and traveled west that way? The Pripyat Marches are nearly impassable. They would have had to go around them to the north or south. Besides that, Belarus was heavily wooded - not exactly the best pathway for people with ox-drawn wagons, horses, and herds of livestock. It looks neat on the map, one can say that for it.



She uses the plural form but gives reference to the paper by Juras et al. where three different skeletons from Hubinek were analyzed and only one (poz232) was dated to such an early period.

Yes, she does: skeletons, graves, burials. Three different matching plural words to refer to what was found at the site of Hubinek and dated to 3000-2900 BC. Evidently you think she did not know what she was writing about. Guess we might find out in time.

rms2
02-20-2021, 01:30 AM
Michal quote excerpt



That is very interesting. The scheme show this early Middle Dnieper culture starting around 3300 BC and ending around 3000 BC. The flat grave practicing Sredny Stog culture were in this area right before this (3500 BC)

An old map of mine from couple of years ago.https://i.pinimg.com/originals/04/25/2e/04252e2af93cdd7a30d7d4e51d6cfcd8.png

The problem with all that, at least right now, is that the Middle Dnieper culture is supposed to have been derived from Corded Ware and not the other way around.

I would be happy if the reverse were true, because then we would know where CWC came from.

CopperAxe
02-20-2021, 01:35 AM
Why? Already we know that some of them were R1a-M417 and some others were R1b-L51, and they weren't in the same tribe or clan. Why are multiple routes any more unlikely than a single route?


In addition, there can be some pretty significant differences between burial types across the Corded Ware horizon. And I think the reason for that is because on the steppes you already had various burial traditions simultaneously.

Perhaps each clan or society had their own thing and passing that one to their descendants who then significantly grew in numbers as they expanded across the northern half of Europe, taking their traditions with them.

Much of the material similarity between the Corded Ware are just due to them living in the same cultural network and utilizing the same type of items.

rms2
02-20-2021, 01:42 AM
I think I posted this stuff before regarding the Dniester valley route.

This is from page 411 of Svetlana Ivanova, “ ‘Yampil Inspirations’: A Study of the Dniester Cultural Contact Area at the Frontier of Baltic and Pontic Drainage Basin” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 20, 2015):



2. In the light of the above outline therefore one should argue that the ‘architecture of barrows’ associated in the Yampil landscape of the Middle Dniester Area with the Eneolithic (specifically, mainly with the TC), precedes the development of a similar phenomenon that can be observed from 2900/2800 BC in the Upper Dniester Area and drainage basin of the Upper Vistula, associated with the Corded Ware culture (CWC) [Włodarczak 2006; 2007; 2008; Jarosz, Włodarczak 2007; Goslar et al. 2015].

From pages 411-412:


One of the main signposts of the continuity of this phenomenon in a later period corresponding to the early phases of the CWC and YC, remains the striking correspondence of style in respect of type A amphorae from the Vistula area (Złota, ‘Nad Wawrem’ site, grave 436) and the Middle Dniester Region, from Yampil barrow concentrate on (Porohy, barrow 2, grave 2) [Ivanova et al. 2014]. The discovery of flint artefacts from barrows in Porohy (3A/15) and Prydnistryanske (IV/7) points, moreover, to the important role of raw materials from Upper Dniester areas, as well as to technology serving as an inspiration for flint working by CWC communities [Razumov 2011: 141-148]. The number of finds documenting CWC – YC ties, alas is modest and clearly less than finds testifying to GAC – YC cultural exchange.

The above two relations of communities of the Northern Pont with cultures deriving from Central Europe are, however, similar with respect to: (a) the dating of their signs on YC cemeteries and (b) analogical manifestations in the funerary rituals of the north-western Black Sea Coast communities (the same basic types of objects used in the same way in funerary rites). Although to date it has not been possible to gain absolute date determinations for GAC and CWC graves and associated artefacts, one can suggest that on the basis of the relative stratigraphy of barrow constructions, these finds can be dated in general to 2800-2600 BC.

. . .

Of special research interest therefore is the role of communication between the Black Sea Coast and the drainage basin of the Baltic Sea in the formation of a new set of barrow rituals: the old Corded Ware horizon. In this context, the Middle Dniester Area would have played the role of a cultural exchange, though scarcity of finds from the south-eastern reaches of the CWC constitutes a barrier in providing more details (between the Yampil agglomeration of Eneolithic barrows of the YC and the Zbrucz River, where the easternmost CWC barrows are found, there is a belt of ‘no man’s land’, measuring some 150 km across).

. . .

Hence, it is Małopolska at present that provides an insight into the importance of relations between the Northern Pontic Area and the Final Neolithic of Central Europe. It is on this basis that attempts at genetic interpretation are made [Włodarczak 2014]. Importantly, this does not negate the fundamental significance of Podolia together with the main Dniester cultural contact route.

CopperAxe
02-20-2021, 01:47 AM
Am I the only one who finds the (earlier part of the) Middle Dnieper culture to be a bit poorly defined archaeologically? Maybe it is just a relative lack of english sources.

Dating, definition, distribution etc. it kinda seems all over the place and unclear to me.

There were mounds, but I also read that many burials were reused Yamnaya mounds which had been built earlier.

Then there also is cremation in some places, and then later on flat burials become dominant I think.

MitchellSince1893
02-20-2021, 03:09 AM
The problem with all that, at least right now, is that the Middle Dnieper culture is supposed to have been derived from Corded Ware and not the other way around.

I would be happy if the reverse were true, because then we would know where CWC came from.
I’m going see what I can find about this early (possibly pre corded Ware) middle dnieper period, and report back if I find anything interesting.

Alain
02-20-2021, 04:15 AM
Here is again a schematic representation of the spread of burial ground of culture with corded ceramics in south-east Poland and adjacent areas. Orange semicircles = burial mound, yellow circles = flat burial ground, gray diamond = graves with inventory of the Middle Dnepr culture, red triangle = Złota site, dotted line = border between GAC and CW culture

43424

In this region the transformation of CWC with other cultures could have arisen. In south-eastern Poland, the interactions between GAC and CW can be seen in the example of the line bundle amphora, which occurs in the entire area of ​​distribution of the culture of Corded Ware and probably began in Lesser Poland. And the intensification of contacts between the CW and Middle Dnepr culture could only become possible to a greater extent when the GAC gradually disappeared. (from approx. 2500 BC), I meanwhile also think that the CWC has a similar ancestry to Yamnaya, but a different development which can be explained / determined in terms of time, space, inventory and also the type of burial.

Here is another chronological sequence of the Yamnaya culture:

43425

If you look at the chronological sequence and think of the CW and with the first appearance of the CW in south-east Poland, you know that Yamnaya was already in its middle cultural phase and thus the CWC cannot have originated from Yamnaya but from a similar ancestral source, perhaps the Lower Don?

MitchellSince1893
02-20-2021, 04:26 AM
In case anyone is interested

‘CORD’ ORNAMENTS ON POTTERY IN THE VISTULA AND DNIEPER
INTERFLUVIAL REGION: 5TH – 4TH MILL. BC



...research into the ‘corded’ ornamentation present in ‘pre-Yamnaya’ cultures (Sredniy Stog culture – SSC; Lower Mikhailovka culture – LMC; Rogachyk culture – RC); early Yamnaya culture (YC); Tripolye culture (TC) and Funnel Beaker culture (FBC)

https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/10593/13133/1/BPS-15-1_A_Kośko_M_Szmyt%20CORDED%20ORNAMENTATION%20ON%20 CLAY%20VESSELS%20IN%20THE%20VISTULA%20AND%20DNIEPE R%20RIVER%20REGION-5TH%20–%204TH%20MILL%20BC%20RESEARCH%20PROJECT%20A IMS%20PP_7-12.pdf

Michał
02-20-2021, 09:33 AM
Why? Already we know that some of them were R1a-M417 and some others were R1b-L51, and they weren't in the same tribe or clan. Why are multiple routes any more unlikely than a single route?
I have nothing against different migration routes for CWC as long as they all originate from a single proto-CWC population that has already undergone some kind of substantial transformation from the traditional steppe (either Yamna or, more likely, pre-Yamna) package to the completely new CWC package. It seems absolutely unrealistic to assume that all different Yamna groupings living in Ukraine adhered to a kind of unwritten agreement that once they leave Ukraine (or once they eneter the "future CWC terrritory", wherever it happens to be) they all will suddenly stop acting like Yamna people and transform themselves into the same kind of a new society that no longer builds the traditional Yamna kurgans and at the same time develops every time the same novel burial rite, placing their deads on the side, replacing the copper daggers with stone axes, producing a new type of "phase I" beakers with the corded pattern and large Thuringian amphoras, etc.



Much of the material similarity between the Corded Ware are just due to them living in the same cultural network and utilizing the same type of items.
This reminds me of the old anti-migrationist theories regarding the origin of CWC, as developed by Martin Furholt and others who tried to convince us that there wasn't any significant migration of new people from the steppe and the Corded Ware horizon was just a sign of orchestrated cultural transformation of different local peoples in Central, Eastern and Northern Europe, and it was possible only thanks to the intensive network of cultural exchange between different regions in the Late Neolithic world.

Michał
02-20-2021, 09:55 AM
What evidence is there that steppe pastoralist people moved north into Belarus and traveled west that way? The Pripyat Marches are nearly impassable. They would have had to go around them to the north or south. Besides that, Belarus was heavily wooded - not exactly the best pathway for people with ox-drawn wagons, horses, and herds of livestock. It looks neat on the map, one can say that for it.
There were some known trading routes in this part of Europe that could have been also used for migrations of the early CWC people. One of the most commonly used routes was going along the Dnieper and Neman rivers, thus connecting the Middle Dnieper region with the Baltic, so this could have been one of the two primary routes for expanding north and north-west from the hypothetical CWC secondary homeland in the Middle Dnieper region. More precisely, this could have been the major route for the CWC migration twoards the today's Baltic states, Northern Poland and Fennoscandia. The other major route could have been through Volhynia towards the Sokal Ridge (exactly as documented for the more recent migration of the "middle stage MDC" people to Poland), and then to Southern Poland and further west and south-west (I guess this route could have been used by at least some of the L51-rich CWC tribes).

Finn
02-20-2021, 10:30 AM
There were some known trading routes in this part of Europe that could have been also used for migrations of the early CWC people. One of the most commonly used routes was going along the Dnieper and Neman rivers, thus connecting the Middle Dnieper region with the Baltic, so this could have been one of the two primary routes for expanding north and north-west from the hypothetical CWC secondary homeland in the Middle Dnieper region. More precisely, this could have been the major route for the CWC migration twoards the today's Baltic states, Northern Poland and Fennoscandia. The other major route could have been through Volhynia towards the Sokal Ridge (exactly as documented for the more recent migration of the "middle stage MDC" people to Poland), and then to Southern Poland and further west and south-west (I guess this route could have been used by at least some of the L51-rich CWC tribes).

The same Furholt (2003 google translate):

If one takes all these data together for early ceramic-less graves, a horizon can be postulated which dates to around 2900 BC, during which the east-west oriented, sex-differentiated individual grave custom - the corded ceramic grave custom - developed. This burial custom developed over large parts of Central Europe and southern Scandinavia, but at that time it was only associated with corded ceramic additions in Poland. It wasn't until a good 200 years later, around 2750/2700, that the system of additions to the west was adopted. As we have seen, the spreading apparently occurs in connection with spherical amphorae.


https://www.jungsteinsite.uni-kiel.de/pdf/2003_furholt.pdf

Bourgeois (2017) points at the coherence between CW Mittelelbe-Saale/ Central-East Europe and Single Grave in the Northwest.

https://i.postimg.cc/8st2G1Vp/Schermafbeelding-2021-02-20-om-11-27-55.png (https://postimg.cc/8st2G1Vp)

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0185971


The very similar way in which CWC communities created burials and dressed their dead highlights that these communities shared information on this burial ritual over a large area. A person from the Czech Republic attending a funeral in the Netherlands would have recognized and related to many of the actions carried out during the burial ritual. It is one thing to use similar material culture, but our analysis demonstrates that with the use of similar material culture came similar ideas on how to use these items in the burial ritual. This implies that the homogeneity we perceive in Corded Ware society is grounded in intensive communication between its members.

Furthermore, our network representations and similarity indexes demonstrate that women’s burial practices are distinctly local in the CWC. Compared to women, men’s burials are far more similar across regions. By implication Corded Ware communities in different regions were primarily exchanging information on the male burial ritual. Consequently, male burial practices seem to be the prime vector of cultural information exchange between Corded Ware communities.


Our findings corroborate the image of a male focused society that was recently reinstated based on aDNA evidence [1,6,20]. Current theories propose the existence of roaming young male war-bands as one of the core elements in Corded Ware society [1,21]. The international nature of the male burial ritual that we discovered fits this mobility pattern. Intriguingly, the greater female mobility in life as demonstrated by isotopic analyses [1,7], is not reflected in the burial ritual. Concordantly, women’s burials emphasise a more locally rooted information network. The differences in burial ritual and mobility may well shed light on diverging societal perceptions of gender within the CWC.


The link between male burials, migration and Y-Dna.....

rms2
02-20-2021, 01:10 PM
I’m going see what I can find about this early (possibly pre corded Ware) middle dnieper period, and report back if I find anything interesting.

Thanks, and I saw the part in what you quoted from Michał, where Włodarczak (whose papers I like) says that although the Middle Dnieper culture is later than Corded Ware, there are older burials there for which there are no good radiocarbon dates. That would be cool if they could be tied to the Middle Dnieper culture and actually turned out to predate Corded Ware.

rms2
02-20-2021, 01:17 PM
I have nothing against different migration routes for CWC as long as they all originate from a single proto-CWC population that has already undergone some kind of substantial transformation from the traditional steppe (either Yamna or, more likely, pre-Yamna) package to the completely new CWC package. It seems absolutely unrealistic to assume that all different Yamna groupings living in Ukraine adhered to a kind of unwritten agreement that once they leave Ukraine (or once they eneter the "future CWC terrritory", wherever it happens to be) they all will suddenly stop acting like Yamna people and transform themselves into the same kind of a new society that no longer builds the traditional Yamna kurgans and at the same time develops every time the same novel burial rite, placing their deads on the side, replacing the copper daggers with stone axes, producing a new type of "phase I" beakers with the corded pattern and large Thuringian amphoras, etc.

. . .



Whoa! Who said it was sudden?

Yamnaya was anywhere from 300 to 600 years older than Corded Ware. Its people had plenty of time to make it to the matrix of Corded Ware, which right now looks like NW Ukraine/East Slovakia/SE Poland, and become influenced by the practices of other cultures in that region and along the way there, and by ideas arising within their own groups. A lot can change over the course of a few centuries.

Besides that, Yamnaya was not a single, monolithic thing. Burial rites and artefacts varied within the broad spectrum that was Yamnaya.

rms2
02-20-2021, 02:34 PM
I know it sounds like I am absolutely wedded to the idea that Corded Ware came into being because Yamnaya people came up the Prut/Dniester valleys from the NW Black Sea coast circa 3000 BC. Right now, as things currently stand, that's what I think is most likely, but I am definitely open to anything else the evidence indicates.

Forget the precise route for a moment. Here are a couple of questions.

If it wasn't Yamnaya, who was it? What other people on the steppe had autosomal DNA like Yamnaya c. 3000 BC but who weren't Yamnaya?

Also, it seems to me that some of us may be talking past each other because of our different conceptions of what Yamnaya was. I've mentioned that before, and I confess, I could be wrong in what I think Yamnaya was.

I see it as the broad, pan-steppe culture that began c. 3600-3300 BC. That Yamnaya had a set of broadly similar practices but lots of local variations. Others seem to see it as much more limited in scope, to people who practiced a specific, very uniform set of burial rites without much variation, and probably dominated everywhere it was by R1b-Z2103.

If the latter is the true definition of Yamnaya, then, yeah, it probably had little or nothing to do with the formation of Corded Ware.

rms2
02-20-2021, 03:13 PM
Here's a query based on the map below, which comes from Arkadiusz Marciniak, "Status of Animals in Funerary Rituals of Founders and Users of Ceremonial Centres of the Yampil Barrow Cemetery Complex” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 22, 2017).

Look at the map, please. It seems to me the "4 – barrows of undetermined cultural attribution, dated to the 3rd millennium BC" could be significant, depending on just how old they actually are, since they seem to span the geographical gap between Corded Ware to the north and Yamnaya to the south.

Here's the query I mentioned above:

Anyone know anything more about those "barrows of undetermined cultural attribution"? The Marciniak paper doesn't say much about them. It's mostly about deposits of animal bones in the barrows of the Yampil/Podolia region.

43430

Michał
02-20-2021, 03:31 PM
Whoa! Who said it was sudden?

Yamnaya was anywhere from 300 to 600 years older than Corded Ware. Its people had plenty of time to make it to the matrix of Corded Ware, which right now looks like NW Ukraine/East Slovakia/SE Poland, and become influenced by the practices of other cultures in that region and along the way there, and by ideas arising within their own groups. A lot can change over the course of a few centuries.
I'm afraid I don't understand your scenario. You said there were likely many independent Yamna groupings that used different routes to migrate north and north-west into the forest zone and then transform themselves into the new Corded Ware population. Are you now saying that this could have happened as early as 3600-3300 BC (thus 300-600 years before the first CWC burials/settlements), so those Yamna groups arriving in different regions of the future CWC territory (including your favorite region encompassing SE Poland, Slovakia and NW Ukraine) had plenty of time to undergo the required cultural (and genetic?) transformation that finally resulted in the emergence of CWC? If so, then where are those early Yamna kurgans in SE Poland, Slovakia and NW Ukraine and in all other regions "invaded" by parallel Yamna groupings? Where are those multiple sites in different regions within the forest zone showing the transformation from Yamna to CWC? It could have been difficult to identify the exact place where CWC first emerged if this was just one steppe-derived group migrating north, but things should be very different when assuming that multiple independent Yamna groupings migrated north towards the forest zone along many different routes and they all contributed together to the almost simultaneous emergence of CWC in different regions.

Or maybe the above scenario is not what you are suggesting, and 3600-3300 BC was only the moment when the putative Yamna ancestors of CWC started migrating north (or diverged from their remaining Yamna relatives), but both the migration process and the cultural/genetic transformartion took about 300-600 years before those multiple Yamna-derived groupings migrating north along many different routes were able to finally reach the future CWC territory. But if so, then where are those multiple Yamna derived groupings migrating north and undergoing slow transformation from Yamna to CWC? How was it possible to synchronize the transformation from Yamna to CWC for different Yamna groupings migrating north between the Prut river in the West and the Don river in the East? Are you able to show any examples of Yamna-derived groupings undergroing such transformation while slowly migrating north? Again, since you insist this process involved many independent Yamna-derived groupings that used very different routes when migrating north, this should significantly increase our chances of identifying them in the archaeolgical material.


Besides that, Yamnaya was not a single, monolithic thing. Burial rites and artefacts varied within the broad spectrum that was Yamnaya.
How is this relevant for the putative multiregional (synchronized?) process of the transformation of many independent/different Yamna groupings into the novel CWC population/culture (quite uniform yet very different from Yamna)?

Michał
02-20-2021, 03:42 PM
I know it sounds like I am absolutely wedded to the idea that Corded Ware came into being because Yamnaya people came up the Prut/Dniester valleys from the NW Black Sea coast circa 3000 BC. Right now, as things currently stand, that's what I think is most likely, but I am definitely open to anything else the evidence indicates.

I wrote my above post before reading your most recent comments, so please forgive me in case you find my questions/remarks wrongly formulated (or wrongly addressed).

rms2
02-20-2021, 03:50 PM
I don't think I said it was likely there were many different routes to the Corded Ware matrix; I think I said there could have been more than one. But if I used the word "likely", okay.

What I was conceding, or trying to concede, is that steppe people could have also come west across Ukraine from the Dnieper in addition to north up the Dniester/Prut.

I also did not say Yamnaya was formed and then instantly moved to Małopolska, where it began forming Corded Ware. I merely pointed out that Yamnaya is considerably older than Corded Ware and had plenty of time to undergo the cultural changes needed to result in Corded Ware practices. Apparently a lot of that probably occurred in the CWC-X Horizon one hundred-year period, 3000-2900 BC, when Yamnaya was already at least 300 years old (maybe twice that old), but that may have been simply the culmination of a process that started earlier than that.

The reason I pointed out that Yamnaya had varied rites is that you seem to think it was so uniformly and unerringly unlike Corded Ware that it could not possibly have been involved in the formation of Corded Ware, despite the high level of Yamnaya autosomal DNA in Corded Ware. I would point out that Yamnaya was not completely monolithic in its practices. Parts of it had burial rites not unlike those of Corded Ware. Some of the Corded Ware practices could have been the result of syncretism between Yamnaya and local cultures in the birthplace of Corded Ware (or along the way there).

Before the advent of ancient DNA testing, many scholars, including David Anthony, thought Corded Ware was merely a later development of Central European TRB, with some single grave practices borrowed from neighboring steppe peoples.

alan
02-20-2021, 03:51 PM
As I said, the "classical" stage of MDC (ie. the one for which we have the radiocarbon dates) is not old enough to be the source of CWC elsewhere. However, I wouldn't be so sure about the erlier stages of MDC/CWC that are much harder to classify, as they have not yet developed the local features seen in MDC only (and differentiating MDC from all remaining CWC groups).

It is worth mentioning the the CWC sites in the Sokal Ridge (in Eastern Poland, close to the Ukrainian border), dated mostly to 2600-2300 BC (except the single grave in Hubinek dated to 3000-2900 BC) show clear signs of foreign migrants coming from the East, and more specifically from MDC (with the "classical" MDC pottery), so this shows that by about 2600 BC the Middle Dnieper Culture was not only fully developed (producing the typical pottery from the classical period) but it was also populous enough to produce new waves of people migrating east to Poland, and we shoudn't forget about the recently published Fatyanovo skeletons (with the earliest ones dated to about 2700 BC) that used to have been commonly considered as originating from MDC.

AFAIK the most recent reviews of commencing dates of cultures would put Fatyanovo around 2750/2700BC and Middle Dnieper in the 2600-2500BC range. The earliest CW seems to be no earlier than 2950BC/2900BC. Thats from memory (which isnt perfect) but I read the latest papers a few months ago. Its best to deal with the latest info and it appears that Middle Dnieper is too late to explain anything about the first 300 years of CW.

Personally I dont see the presence of C-T type farmers apparently in the way of groups expanding up the Ukraine rivers as an issue. There are several cases of migratory groups simple not breeding with peoples whose territory they passed through or even lived in for a long period. There are no rules - they can either stay totally aloof, freely mix or somewhere in between. The thing to not of CW is how fast it spread through its core areas. There was a massive spread around 2800BC that may simply have been too fast for much further mixing to have taken place in that phase: a new phase of mixing only happening after they settled down. What if the move from Yamnaya in what became CW zone was just as fast and with as little mixing? Seems that way judging by v early CW that is unadmixed with GAC etc.

davit
02-20-2021, 03:53 PM
I'm afraid I don't understand your scenario. You said there were likely many independent Yamna groupings that used different routes to migrate north and north-west into the forest zone and then transform themselves into the new Corded Ware population. Are you now saying that this could have happened as early as 3600-3300 BC (thus 300-600 years before the first CWC burials/settlements), so those Yamna groups arriving in different regions of the future CWC territory (including your favorite region encompassing SE Poland, Slovakia and NW Ukraine) had plenty of time to undergo the required cultural (and genetic?) transformation that finally resulted in the emergence of CWC? If so, then where are those early Yamna kurgans in SE Poland, Slovakia and NW Ukraine and in all other regions "invaded" by parallel Yamna groupings? Where are those multiple sites in different regions within the forest zone showing the transformation from Yamna to CWC? It could have been difficult to identify the exact place where CWC first emerged if this was just one steppe-derived group migrating north, but things should be very different when assuming that multiple independent Yamna groupings migrated north towards the forest zone along many different routes and they all contributed together to the almost simultaneous emergence of CWC in different regions.

Or maybe the above scenario is not what you are suggesting, and 3600-3300 BC was only the moment when the putative Yamna ancestors of CWC started migrating north (or diverged from their remaining Yamna relatives), but both the migration process and the cultural/genetic transformartion took about 300-600 years before those multiple Yamna-derived groupings migrating north along many different routes were able to finally reach the future CWC territory. But if so, then where are those multiple Yamna derived groupings migrating north and undergoing slow transformation from Yamna to CWC? How was it possible to synchronize the transformation from Yamna to CWC for different Yamna groupings migrating north between the Prut river in the West and the Don river in the East? Are you able to show any examples of Yamna-derived groupings undergroing such transformation while slowly migrating north? Again, since you insist this process involved many independent Yamna-derived groupings that used very different routes when migrating north, this should significantly increase our chances of identifying them in the archaeolgical material.


How is this relevant for the putative multiregional (synchronized?) process of the transformation of many independent/different Yamna groupings into the novel CWC population/culture (quite uniform yet very different from Yamna)?

Good stuff. Everything you posted makes sense to me. Could you tell us your theory on the origins of Corded Ware?

Michał
02-20-2021, 04:27 PM
The reason I pointed out that Yamnaya had varied rites is that you seem to think it was so uniformly and unerringly unlike Corded Ware that it could not possibly have been involved in the formation of Corded Ware, despite the high level of Yamnaya autosomal DNA in Corded Ware. I would point out that Yamnaya was not completely monolithic in its practices. Parts of it had burial rites not unlike those of Corded Ware. Some of the Corded Ware practices could have been the result of syncretism between Yamnaya and local cultures in the birthplace of Corded Ware (or along the way there).

Honestly, I find the presence of different shades of Yamna not very important for the genesis of CWC, unless some of those local Yamna variants were indeed very similar to CWC (and old enough to suggest their ancestral relationship to CWC). As far as I know, there are no such Yamna groups currently known to us.

Your question about the potential steppe-derived non-Yamna (but Yamna-related) population that could have been ancestral to CWC is very important, but I'm afraid I am unable to answer this question at the moment. If Usatovo turns indeed Z93-rich then finding the exact source of the steppe-derived admixture (dated to about 3500 BC or earlier) in this particular CT-derived group should bring us much closer to the correct answer. I cannot rule out the possibility that when the steppe ancestors of CWC diverged from the ancestors o "Yamna proper" they were a part of the early Proto-Yamna population (so in such case one should indeed call CWC a descendant of Yamna), yet both the Y-DNA data and the very significant cultural differences between Early CWC and Yamna proper make it more likely that those two groupings diverged before 3500 BC (or before the expansion of Yamna proper).

Before the exact steppe source of CWC is known (or commonly agreed on), I think it is much less confusing to call it a "steppe population" or "Yamna-like population".

Alain
02-20-2021, 05:13 PM
What is the influence of the Repin culture?
According to Rassamakin, a second migration went from
the Repin culture on the middle Don from that there already during the middle Chalcolithic formed.
In the second half of the 4th millennium spread before Christ, especially the characteristic ceramic
of the Repin culture further west to the
River Dnieper out and is even in the middle layer
the settlement Michajlovka. Could this culture be related to CW? With the Lower Michajlovka culture around 3800 BC, burial mounds that spatially border on the Usatovo culture become tangible, but for the first time.

MitchellSince1893
02-20-2021, 05:20 PM
More “light” reading “Prehistoric Networks in Southern and Eastern Europe”

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/63506355/2018_VA_1020200602-110256-1pbl6wh.pdf?1591122709=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DShydlovskyi_P_S_e d_VITA_ANTIQUA_10_Prehi.pdf&Expires=1613844768&Signature=JorU~Hnh~Td9iACdUrSIEacy~cqOg6CICin1vf~L IzOStitrt3sVDgRjBxTb0iKxGK33iE6hSngKai8ZH-4Nb8O~wln072VtDV45PqQrAg63EG~mFDXyRsYLS9GcdAUZ07Sq 7z9qp3HX9XlLLKm7Rgf5rgIFUFHWQBQaoXblPCfr9ZeWZNC~zO kut2pMbodula0NMig8G-UmihQV346qwQ0ZAhsvwLJI9eDlKECCI0aPG1FWijvZ6xkm3vPp XN5mjN4aFuZR54mShokVA9qsDpq6C2BGfMngqenwRBNcw9zNrA o9JaVBIyoKo4vs-i4O2RYFlGYjKqx-qvytT7k-4A__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA#page=156

Michał
02-20-2021, 05:22 PM
AFAIK the most recent reviews of commencing dates of cultures would put Fatyanovo around 2750/2700BC and Middle Dnieper in the 2600-2500BC range. The earliest CW seems to be no earlier than 2950BC/2900BC. Thats from memory (which isnt perfect) but I read the latest papers a few months ago. Its best to deal with the latest info and it appears that Middle Dnieper is too late to explain anything about the first 300 years of CW.

Are you saying that we should simply ignore the fact that the available radiocarbon dates for MDC cover only its middle and late stages, so we don't have any radiocarbon results for the earliest stage of MDC that is dated to a much older period (based on the typological analysis)?



Personally I dont see the presence of C-T type farmers apparently in the way of groups expanding up the Ukraine rivers as an issue. There are several cases of migratory groups simple not breeding with peoples whose territory they passed through or even lived in for a long period. There are no rules - they can either stay totally aloof, freely mix or somewhere in between. The thing to not of CW is how fast it spread through its core areas. There was a massive spread around 2800BC that may simply have been too fast for much further mixing to have taken place in that phase: a new phase of mixing only happening after they settled down. What if the move from Yamnaya in what became CW zone was just as fast and with as little mixing? Seems that way judging by v early CW that is unadmixed with GAC etc.
When assuming that the migration of the Yamna people through the CT/GAC/TRB territories was very fast, and this is why we still see CWC people with no EEF admixture as far north as Latvia and Greater Poland, we shouldn't expect those Yamna migrants to undergo any instant cultural transformation, resulting in a total replacement of the original Yamna package with the very different CWC package.

Likewise, when realizing that the steppe-derived migrants needed enough time to thoroughly modify their cultural package while still preserving their original genetic composition (at least in a significant fraction of the population), it is much safer to assume that such a substantial cultural transformation took place in a region where intensive contacts with the EEF-rich population were possible but could have been easily avoided (like in the Middle Dnieper region, at least until the eastward expansion of GAC started about 3000-2900 BC).

MitchellSince1893
02-20-2021, 05:48 PM
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/560768591109324815/This article might be of interest.

http://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl:8080/bitstream/10593/13263/1/BPS-14-9_A_Ko%C5%9Bko%20M_Szmyt%20CENTRAL%20EUROPEAN%20LO WLAND%20SOCIETIES%20AND%20THE%20PONTIC%20AREA%20IN %20THE%204TH-4TH_3RD%20MILLENNIUM%20BC%20PP_191-213.pdf

Pay particular attention to area i “reception zone of eastern group traits and hypothetically ‘Pontic’ ones by societies of the GAC central groups”

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9e/9b/2a/9e9b2a7661d94a415a7a2826bb477d32.jpg

This is a back migration of Eastern/Pontic GAC towards the GAC core, but who knows, some L51 types could have tagged along.

Finn
02-20-2021, 06:15 PM
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/560768591109324815/This article might be of interest.

http://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl:8080/bitstream/10593/13263/1/BPS-14-9_A_Ko%C5%9Bko%20M_Szmyt%20CENTRAL%20EUROPEAN%20LO WLAND%20SOCIETIES%20AND%20THE%20PONTIC%20AREA%20IN %20THE%204TH-4TH_3RD%20MILLENNIUM%20BC%20PP_191-213.pdf

Pay particular attention to area i “reception zone of eastern group traits and hypothetically ‘Pontic’ ones by societies of the GAC central groups”

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9e/9b/2a/9e9b2a7661d94a415a7a2826bb477d32.jpg

This is a back migration of Eastern/Pontic GAC towards the GAC core, but who knows, some L51 types could have tagged along.

How would you connect this with the Mittel-Elbe Saale and Czech region, both regions were the spring board for Single Grave.....

rms2
02-20-2021, 06:17 PM
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/560768591109324815/This article might be of interest.

http://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl:8080/bitstream/10593/13263/1/BPS-14-9_A_Ko%C5%9Bko%20M_Szmyt%20CENTRAL%20EUROPEAN%20LO WLAND%20SOCIETIES%20AND%20THE%20PONTIC%20AREA%20IN %20THE%204TH-4TH_3RD%20MILLENNIUM%20BC%20PP_191-213.pdf

Pay particular attention to area i “reception zone of eastern group traits and hypothetically ‘Pontic’ ones by societies of the GAC central groups”

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9e/9b/2a/9e9b2a7661d94a415a7a2826bb477d32.jpg

This is a back migration of Eastern/Pontic GAC towards the GAC core, but who knows, some L51 types could have tagged along.

I had to check, but, yeah, I already have that one. I've downloaded so many papers lately that I have not yet read. That one is on my list.

MitchellSince1893
02-20-2021, 06:23 PM
How would you connect this with the Mittel-Elbe Saale and Czech region, both regions were the spring board for Single Grave.....

Brains cells are focused further East at the moment

Related to my previous post on GAC back migration.

from this article
https://amu.edu.pl/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/121536/BPS19.pdf


The opinions advanced above appear to indicate that the interest in the Baltic drainage basin was shared by only a part of Pontic communities from the frontiers of the inhul-donets Early Bronze Civilization [Klochko, Kośko 2013] (Fig . 12) . referring to the current knowledge on the routes between the seas in the 4th and 3rd millennia BC, it can be claimed that the most instructive indication, leading to the ‘primal source’, is in this case the Volhynia-middle dnieper route in a version advanced in the studies of the eastern European GaC exodus [Kośko, Szmyt 2009; Łysenko, Szmyt 2011; Szmyt 2013a] . Viewed from the chronological position, the GaC population exodus could have kindled interest in the Kujawy Upland – i .e . their hypothetical ‘breeding ground’ – among Pontic ‘barrow communities’ . any taxonomic description of these groups should take account of their considerable cultural syncretism . it must be observed that the current state of taxonomization of the Volhynia-middle dnieper route in the 4th and 3rd millennia BC does not reveal any encouraging interpretation offers, for instance, any syncretic units combining Pre-Yamnaya/Yamnaya traits with those of the GaC and early CwC .

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/90/79/d1/9079d1ad75cf3e736d52a5521878fa31.png

rms2
02-20-2021, 06:25 PM
Here's a query based on the map below, which comes from Arkadiusz Marciniak, "Status of Animals in Funerary Rituals of Founders and Users of Ceremonial Centres of the Yampil Barrow Cemetery Complex” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 22, 2017).

Look at the map, please. It seems to me the "4 – barrows of undetermined cultural attribution, dated to the 3rd millennium BC" could be significant, depending on just how old they actually are, since they seem to span the geographical gap between Corded Ware to the north and Yamnaya to the south.

Here's the query I mentioned above:

Anyone know anything more about those "barrows of undetermined cultural attribution"? The Marciniak paper doesn't say much about them. It's mostly about deposits of animal bones in the barrows of the Yampil/Podolia region.

43430

I'm quoting my own post above to admit that the Yamnaya barrows in Podolia and the rest of the Dniester/Prut interfluve are pretty typically Yamnaya, without a whole lot of similarities to Corded Ware except the pit burials, mounds, prevalence of males, etc. The dead were buried mostly on their backs, with no difference in body orientation between men and women, unlike Corded Ware, which practiced gender dimorphism in body orientation, crouched on the side burial, etc.

However, that is why I asked about those "barrows of undetermined cultural attribution" on Marciniak's map: the white diamonds in between the red diamonds of Corded Ware to the north and the blue squares of Yamnaya to the south. Seems to me they could be important, if they are old enough and if they mark some sort of cultural transition from Yamnaya to Corded Ware.

Finn
02-20-2021, 06:27 PM
Brains cells are focused further East at the moment

Related to my previous post on GAC back migration.

from this article
https://amu.edu.pl/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/121536/BPS19.pdf

I guess your brains cells can handle this! ;)
Seen the topic theme: it has a 'start' and also a 'finish'....(L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware)

TigerMW
02-20-2021, 06:29 PM
Does anybody have a map that shows the dating of the expansion of Corded Ware so one can see how timeframes overlay the geography?
We've got multiple attempts of this in the Bell Beaker world but I haven't seen the same for Corded Ware.

The expansion of CW may help explain those cultural practices that are unifying. If CW originated and primarily expanded from old Globular Amphora regional culture territories, that might explain some of the unifying factors that are not Yamnaya based. In areas like the Baltic countries, steppes clans would have had to move through CW to get there. No one said this didn't take generations for a more endogamous steppe based clan to reach the Baltic via CW territory. That would have been plenty of time to pick up CW practices while allying and gaining client/host benefits from the CW chiefs letting them pass through.

Regardless, I am strongly suspicious of any assertions of CW being "strongly unified". It is well known that the Single Grave variant of CW had differences as well as apparently different paternal lineages.

Similarly, I just don't think the Yamnaya horizon was "strongly unified". There is plenty of evidence of the regional groups.

These are horizons, not cultures. I have for years repeated (probably to some annoyance) that Bell Beakers are not Bell Beakers are not Bell Beakers. To me it was obvious on the Y DNA side and it turned out to be true as Olalde, etc. have shown. There are different Bell Beakers.

CW is not CW is not CW just like Yamnaya is not Yamnaya is not Yamnaya. These are horizons of cultures. There are regional groups. Some may be led by certain Y DNA types and some others. GAC also had different regional groups.

My guess is David Reich's investigation to test if CW changes were the results of different elites taking control will be found negative. The client-host Indo-European concept may explain. David Anthony felt like the Usatovo chiefs allowed the Yamnaya from the steppes to pass through their territory and on up the Danube.

Aesch25 was CW but had more steppe auDNA than the other CW ancient DNA on the Swiss Plateau.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/04/aesch25.html

British colonists in America let loads of Scottish and Irish people coming in to New England and incentivized them passing through and over the Appalachians, crossing the British "Proclamation line" that had set aside west of the Appalachians as Indian Reserve. The Romans paid off the Visigoths and gave them Spain to get them out of the way.

rms2
02-20-2021, 06:36 PM
There were a number of different regional Corded Ware variants, and, as we now know, more than just one single Y-DNA haplogroup prevailed among the different Corded Ware tribes, which is really one more reason to think there may have been more than one route (not necessarily "many" routes, just more than one) from the steppe into the womb of Corded Ware.

Finn
02-20-2021, 06:49 PM
This hotspot of Single Grave:
https://i.postimg.cc/yWtzyWGJ/Schermafbeelding-2021-02-20-om-11-27-55.png (https://postimg.cc/yWtzyWGJ)


And the nowadays hotspot of L51 aka S116 are the same:
https://i.postimg.cc/0MzBz0PV/R1b-S116.png (https://postimg.cc/0MzBz0PV)

Could be coincidence....but I guess not.

Johnny ola
02-20-2021, 07:43 PM
What is going on with these new steppe samples? Does anyone knows more details?

43436

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33579752/

etrusco
02-20-2021, 08:01 PM
What is going on with these new steppe samples? Does anyone knows more details?

43436

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33579752/

Isn't one of them the Galvanesti R1a Z93? So at the end when is the date of the sample?

Alain
02-20-2021, 08:05 PM
Does anybody have a map that shows the dating of the expansion of Corded Ware so one can see how timeframes overlay the geography?
We've got multiple attempts of this in the Bell Beaker world but I haven't seen the same for Corded Ware.

The expansion of CW may help explain those cultural practices that are unifying. If CW originated and primarily expanded from old Globular Amphora regional culture territories, that might explain some of the unifying factors that are not Yamnaya based. In areas like the Baltic countries, steppes clans would have had to move through CW to get there. No one said this didn't take generations for a more endogamous steppe based clan to reach the Baltic via CW territory. That would have been plenty of time to pick up CW practices while allying and gaining client/host benefits from the CW chiefs letting them pass through.

Regardless, I am strongly suspicious of any assertions of CW being "strongly unified". It is well known that the Single Grave variant of CW had differences as well as apparently different paternal lineages.

Similarly, I just don't think the Yamnaya horizon was "strongly unified". There is plenty of evidence of the regional groups.

These are horizons, not cultures. I have for years repeated (probably to some annoyance) that Bell Beakers are not Bell Beakers are not Bell Beakers. To me it was obvious on the Y DNA side and it turned out to be true as Olalde, etc. have shown. There are different Bell Beakers.

CW is not CW is not CW just like Yamnaya is not Yamnaya is not Yamnaya. These are horizons of cultures. There are regional groups. Some may be led by certain Y DNA types and some others. GAC also had different regional groups.

My guess is David Reich's investigation to test if CW changes were the results of different elites taking control will be found negative. The client-host Indo-European concept may explain. David Anthony felt like the Usatovo chiefs allowed the Yamnaya from the steppes to pass through their territory and on up the Danube.

Aesch25 was CW but had more steppe auDNA than the other CW ancient DNA on the Swiss Plateau.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/04/aesch25.html

British colonists in America let loads of Scottish and Irish people coming in to New England and incentivized them passing through and over the Appalachians, crossing the British "Proclamation line" that had set aside west of the Appalachians as Indian Reserve. The Romans paid off the Visigoths and gave them Spain to get them out of the way.

There you are right here again: The local variants of the Yamnaja culture and synchronous cultural groups

43437

In some local variants and sub-variants of the Yamnaya culture, for example, there are differences in the orientation of the funeral, the deceased individuals are buried on the side or the traditional positioning of the dead on their backs in a crouched position, albeit with a different orientation to the north and west is marked.

In any case, we can record the distribution area of ​​the Yamnaya culture in the east from the southern Urals over the entire eastern European steppe zone, partly including the forest steppe ecozone, to the Carpathian basin and the lower Danube in the west and later a gradual immigration into the Pannonian lowlands and of course Interactions with other cultures and transition phases to the Catacomb culture.

Johnny ola
02-20-2021, 08:07 PM
Isn't one of them the Galvanesti R1a Z93? So at the end when is the date of the sample?

I have no idea. That is why I am asking xD. Why David hasn't name them yet? Do we know what culture might coming from? Catcomb or maybe KMK bambyno? They seem Corded/Sintasta like but they seem to require something maykop/steppe maykop not sure.

Coldmountains
02-20-2021, 08:32 PM
I have no idea. That is why I am asking xD. Why David hasn't name them yet? Do we know what culture might coming from? Catcomb or maybe KMK bambyno? They seem Corded/Sintasta like but they seem to require something maykop/steppe maykop not sure.

Something about these samples is weird and they pick Botai-like stuff and are somehow distantly similar to Andronovo samples in Central Asia with extra Steppe_EBA and Botai/WSHG. They don't seem to be similar to the currently published Catacomb samples. Considering that afaik nobody in the balkan really picks Botai-like or extra WSHG they unlikely directly contributed to populations more in the southwest. I would expect Babino to be more of a mix of Steppe_EBA + Steppe_MLBA with not such eastern ancestry from Central Asia or the most eastern part of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. So i feel like they are Srubnaya or Cimmerian samples mixed with some North Caucasus+Central Asian groups. Still can not be excluded that Babino had such kind of ancestry but than it unlikely contributed directly to Balkan IEs what would be surprising.

Coldmountains
02-20-2021, 08:39 PM
Isn't one of them the Galvanesti R1a Z93? So at the end when is the date of the sample?

The two samples who are males are both Z93 but basal one negative for Z94- unlike most Z93 of Scythians, Cimmerians and IA nomads (still some of them had basal Z93+)

etrusco
02-20-2021, 08:40 PM
The two samples who are males are both Z93 but basal one negative for Z94- unlike most Z93 of Scythians, Cimmerians and IA nomads (still some of them had basal Z93+)

from Vladimir on the ancientdna thread

I11910 Glăvăneşti, Romania, Grave 1, M1 5,450-3,050
I11913 Glăvăneşti, Romania, Grave 1(49), M11 5,450-3,050
I11914 Glăvăneşti, Romania, Grave 1(49), M11 5,450-3,050
I11915 Glăvăneşti, Romania, Grave 1(49), M11 5,450-3,050

Target: I11915:I11915
Distance: 1.3834% / 0.01383367
34.0 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
22.8 ROU_BA
21.8 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
6.0 UKR_N_o
5.8 HUN_Koros_N
5.4 Yamnaya_UKR
2.2 UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA
1.0 Nganassan
0.8 Han
0.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: I11914:I11914
Distance: 1.3240% / 0.01323952
35.2 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
30.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
14.8 HUN_Koros_N
5.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
4.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
3.6 Han
3.0 Yamnaya_UKR
1.0 UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA
0.6 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP
0.6 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA_o
0.2 TUR_Barcin_N

Target: I11913:I11913
Distance: 1.9946% / 0.01994628
36.0 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
12.8 ROU_BA
11.8 HUN_Koros_N
11.2 Yamnaya_UKR
10.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.6 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA_o
4.2 HUN_Baden_LCA
3.2 WHG
1.2 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
1.0 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP
0.8 Yoruba

Target: I11910:I11910
Distance: 1.5425% / 0.01542514
26.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
25.8 UKR_Trypillia_En
13.4 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA_o
13.0 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
5.6 BGR_EBA
5.2 UKR_Meso
4.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.2 HUN_Baden_LCA
0.8 WHG
0.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728

Johnny ola
02-20-2021, 08:40 PM
Something about these samples is weird and they pick Botai-like stuff and are somehow distantly similar to Andronovo samples in Central Asia with extra Steppe_EBA and Botai/WSHG. They don't seem to be similar to the currently published Catacomb samples. Considering that afaik nobody in the balkan really picks Botai-like or extra WSHG they unlikely directly contributed to populations more in the southwest. I would expect Babino to be more of a mix of Steppe_EBA + Steppe_MLBA with not such eastern ancestry from Central Asia or the most eastern part of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. So i feel like they are Srubnaya or Cimmerian samples mixed with some North Caucasus+Central Asian groups. Still can not be excluded that Babino had such kind of ancestry but than it unlikely contributed directly to Balkan IEs what would be surprising.

The point is why the authors do not mention anything? Isn't it a weird study/paper? I expected much more. But yes, you are prolly right that these samples have something from the east. Might be indeed Cimmerian or even Scytho-Sarmatian not sure.

MitchellSince1893
02-20-2021, 08:43 PM
How would you connect this with the Mittel-Elbe Saale and Czech region, both regions were the spring board for Single Grave.....via Poland is how I would connect them.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d6/84/b5/d684b54622ed7de36ca8d57c62486c42.png

VladimirTaraskin
02-20-2021, 08:44 PM
As I understand it, 913-915 is a single sample processed by different methods

Finn
02-20-2021, 09:11 PM
via Poland is how I would connect them.

We have of course only good guesses.....
Nevertheless these burials show a bigger connectivity. At least the connectivity between Jutland/Netherlands and Sachsen Anhalt/Moravia seem to be big.
So the the Central East European entré: Southeast Poland> Czech>Mittelelbe-Saale>NW Europe (specific Dutch/Denmark) seems to be an option too....
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0185971

Finn
02-20-2021, 09:23 PM
Furholt (2003):
The earliest occurrences were found in Lesser Poland and Kujawy. Subsequently, the groups formed in the Middle Elbe-Saale area, in southern Germany and Switzerland.
Dutch and Denmark are of course the SGC offshoot.

https://www.jungsteinsite.uni-kiel.de/pdf/2003_furholt.pdf

Finn
02-20-2021, 09:31 PM
via Poland is how I would connect them.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d6/84/b5/d684b54622ed7de36ca8d57c62486c42.png

In the case of Single Grave (L51?) the route from the Mittel-Elbe Saale (one of the oldest CW epicentra of Central Europe!) to North Dutch, Jutland make some sense to the Elbe flows of course to nowadays Hamburg, and also otherwise the spread from there to the NW area makes sense.

Alain
02-20-2021, 09:35 PM
We have of course only good guesses.....
Nevertheless these burials show a bigger connectivity. At least the connectivity between Jutland/Netherlands and Sachsen Anhalt/Moravia seem to be big.
So the the Central East European entré: Southeast Poland> Czech>Mittelelbe-Saale>NW Europe (specific Dutch/Denmark) seems to be an option too....
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0185971

For example the CW in the Taubertal there are differences in the burial rite at some sites that are in clear contrast to other CW groups number enclosed in multi-person burials. Also noteworthy are the multi-person graves with mother-child character, one recognizes in the
Taubertal is a continuation of the Corded Ware Cultures and its traditions, with its own further development and thus formative for this region.

altvred
02-20-2021, 09:56 PM
The point is why the authors do not mention anything? Isn't it a weird study/paper? I expected much more. But yes, you are prolly right that these samples have something from the east. Might be indeed Cimmerian or even Scytho-Sarmatian not sure.
The samples were published in this study (https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/Harney_Cheronet_2021_Genome_Research_Tooth_aDNA_pr otocol_0.pdf), the point of the paper was to demonstrate a method that could extract DNA from ancient teeth without destroying them in the process. Probably picked the samples at random.

A collection of carbon dates and spread of CWC/CWC-derived cultures.

CWC sites in Finland

https://i.imgur.com/Weai2ev.png
https://i.imgur.com/7d46gDR.png
https://i.imgur.com/gBLz9vU.png


Fatyanovo


https://i.imgur.com/aJQ6tnK.png
https://i.imgur.com/0C94lcE.png


Poland


https://i.imgur.com/taYmliY.png
https://i.imgur.com/VAGyjCP.png
https://i.imgur.com/aQeypZs.png
https://i.imgur.com/UO3mQcD.png
https://i.imgur.com/D8paEej.png


Baltics

https://i.imgur.com/KauJoLz.png
https://i.imgur.com/dahyHdG.png


Rest of Europe

https://i.imgur.com/Uj2u1Ug.png
https://i.imgur.com/wt5QTDe.png
https://i.imgur.com/TH6gsS3.png
https://i.imgur.com/uYM2FBN.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/MZzrpNN.png
https://i.imgur.com/Uw14qZL.png
https://i.imgur.com/wCWA0YX.png

Johnny ola
02-20-2021, 10:20 PM
The samples were published in this study (https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/Harney_Cheronet_2021_Genome_Research_Tooth_aDNA_pr otocol_0.pdf), the point of the paper was to demonstrate a method that could extract DNA from ancient teeth without destroying them in the process. Probably picked the samples at random.

A collection of carbon dates and spread of CWC/CWC-derived cultures.

CWC sites in Finland

https://i.imgur.com/Weai2ev.png
https://i.imgur.com/7d46gDR.png
https://i.imgur.com/gBLz9vU.png


Fatyanovo


https://i.imgur.com/aJQ6tnK.png
https://i.imgur.com/0C94lcE.png


Poland


https://i.imgur.com/taYmliY.png
https://i.imgur.com/VAGyjCP.png
https://i.imgur.com/aQeypZs.png
https://i.imgur.com/UO3mQcD.png
https://i.imgur.com/D8paEej.png


Baltics

https://i.imgur.com/KauJoLz.png
https://i.imgur.com/dahyHdG.png


Rest of Europe

https://i.imgur.com/Uj2u1Ug.png
https://i.imgur.com/wt5QTDe.png
https://i.imgur.com/TH6gsS3.png
https://i.imgur.com/uYM2FBN.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/MZzrpNN.png
https://i.imgur.com/Uw14qZL.png
https://i.imgur.com/wCWA0YX.png



I see. They should somehow mention anything about the samples. These samples BTW are not the most typical steppe samples. As CM mention they got an Eastern Shift.I d really like to know if they are associated with Srubnaya culture or something similar... Anyways, thanks for the informations BTW!

davit
02-20-2021, 11:17 PM
How many of these samples are new? And anything on ydna known so far?

rms2
02-20-2021, 11:44 PM
Please try to keep in mind what this thread is about. If you cannot associate an ancient sample with R1b-L51, it's not of much relevance here.

rms2
02-21-2021, 03:04 PM
Furholt (2003):
The earliest occurrences were found in Lesser Poland and Kujawy. Subsequently, the groups formed in the Middle Elbe-Saale area, in southern Germany and Switzerland.
Dutch and Denmark are of course the SGC offshoot.

https://www.jungsteinsite.uni-kiel.de/pdf/2003_furholt.pdf

For those who don't know it, "Lesser Poland" is another name for Małopolska.

As for the early-dated site in Kujawy (Kuyavia), that was counted as one of the very earliest in 2003 when Furholt wrote that paper, but it has since been re-subjected to radiocarbon dating and the date revised downward to 2800-2600 BC.

This is from page 190 in Piotr Włodarczak, “Chronometry of the Final Eneolithic Cemeteries at Święte, Jarosław District, from the Perspective of Cultural Relations among Lesser Poland, Podolia and the North-Western Black Sea Region” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 23: 2018, 178-212 ISSN 1231-0344 DOI 10.2478/bps-2018-0006).



An interesting contribution to the revision of chronology of horizon A graves was the renewed dating of the burial from Krusza Zamkowa in Kuyavia, which corrected the previous determination and set the age of the burial at the above-mentioned range of 2800-2600 BC [Goslar, Kośko 2011].

The oldest rc-dated Corded Ware remains are from Małopolska, from Hubinek and Średnia, dated to 3000-2900 BC (from the same 2018 Włodarczak paper mentioned above).

rms2
02-21-2021, 03:55 PM
Back to theories about the origins of Corded Ware. Here are some quotes from archaeologist Kristian Kristiansen, “Re-theorising mobility and the formation of culture and language among the Corded Ware Culture in Europe” (Antiquity Publications Ltd, 2017).

From page 335 (2 of 14) regarding "Yamnaya DNA":



The Yamnaya people from the Pontic-Caspian steppe are the best-known proxy for this incoming gene flow [into Europe west of the steppe]. The exact source could have been another, yet unsampled, group of people, but, in that case, they must have been very closely related genetically to Yamnaya.

From pages 342-343 (9-10 of 14) regarding the opinion of Kristiansen and his co-authors on the origin of Corded Ware (at least in 2017 when that paper was published):



We have been able to reconstruct the social processes of cultural integration and hybridisation that followed from (probable) Neolithic women marrying into Yamnaya settlements dominated by males of first-generation migrants. This practice continued over several generations, and the women soon started to produce new pottery versions of existing containers made of organic materials, with some further innovations. The original herding economy of the Yamnaya migrants gradually gave way to new agrarian practices of crop cultivation, which led to the adaptation of new words. The result of this hybridisation process was the formation of a new material culture, the Corded Ware Culture, and of a new dialect, Proto-Germanic (or perhaps more correctly, Pre-Proto-Germanic). The latter was likewise an adaptation to new conditions, with the borrowing of novel terms from neighbouring Neolithic communities and from women who had married in to the migrant communities. Archaeology here provides a socio-linguistic setting for a process of language change over several hundred years between 2800 and 2400 BC. This integrated model of cultural, linguistic and genetic change explains the formation of Corded Ware Cultures as a result of local adaptations and of interaction between migrant Yamnaya populations and indigenous Neolithic cultures. The social institution of exogamy provided an integrating mechanism, despite sometimes hostile relations between intruding Corded Ware groups and residing Neolithic groups; the burials at Eulau are the most prominent example of this.

. . .

In the long term, however, the Corded Ware social formation had the potential to dominate, not least when supported by the migrations of related Bell Beaker groups.

Finn
02-21-2021, 04:37 PM
For example the CW in the Taubertal there are differences in the burial rite at some sites that are in clear contrast to other CW groups number enclosed in multi-person burials. Also noteworthy are the multi-person graves with mother-child character, one recognizes in the
Taubertal is a continuation of the Corded Ware Cultures and its traditions, with its own further development and thus formative for this region.

Indeed and just like more towards NW Germany the so called Schönfelder (2800-2200) culture:
https://i.postimg.cc/Mn9z2DGH/Schermafbeelding-2021-02-21-om-17-29-14.png (https://postimg.cc/Mn9z2DGH)

rms2
02-21-2021, 04:41 PM
I agree with Kristiansen and his colleagues, but I would not limit the languages involved to Germanic or Pre-Proto-Germanic. In some way or another, Corded Ware was probably behind most of the western, centum IE dialects, but I am also counting Beaker as a later variety of Corded Ware. (I'm not forgetting Corded Ware's involvement with the eastern, satem IE dialects, but my focus is more central and western European.)

I'm open to anything the evidence suggests, including the idea that the source of CW's steppe DNA "could have been another, yet unsampled, group of people [other than Yamnaya], but, in that case, they must have been very closely related genetically to Yamnaya".

Seems to me you have admit, though, that right now Yamnaya is the prime suspect.

rms2
02-21-2021, 05:01 PM
It might be worthwhile to look back to this post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20310-L51-into-Europe-West-of-the-Steppe-Via-Corded-Ware&p=666576&viewfull=1#post666576) and this post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20310-L51-into-Europe-West-of-the-Steppe-Via-Corded-Ware&p=666594&viewfull=1#post666594) as examples of what some scholars once believed about the origin of Corded Ware, even scholars as bright and mostly-right as David Anthony and Marija Gimbutas.

Ancient DNA changed all that, although one cannot deny that TRB and probably GAC had an influence on the development of Corded Ware (probably mostly cultural).

MitchellSince1893
02-21-2021, 06:31 PM
This is from a Yamnaya conference in 2019, Yamnaya interaction in Europe.

https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/312227/Abstract_book_final.pdf?sequence=1

Lot of familiar names participated in it.
Link has abstracts of their presentations.

MitchellSince1893
02-21-2021, 06:46 PM
This one is about Swiss corded Ware

http://orca.cf.ac.uk/97187/3/Ebersbach%2520et%2520al_resubmit_2016_08_18%5B1%5D .pdf


At the regional scale, this change from Horgen style pottery to Corded Ware is the most striking example of discontinuity in the whole Neolithic sequence of the Alpine foreland, and took place within one or two generations around 2750 BC in the Lake Zurich area (Fig. 5). There are only three sites which possibly date before 2750 BC. Of these, Erlenbach Winkel (2766–2765 BC), has unfortunately not yielded any pottery (Tobler 2002, 23, 26, 43–4). In Pfäffikon Irgenhausen, Weberwiesli, the felling date of 2765 BC is connected with a cultural layer containing a beaker with corded decoration (Altorfer 2010, 251-253, Kat. Nr. 12), and layer 17 of Zürich Parkhaus Opéra (associated with felling periods 2753–2750 BC and 2735–2727 BC; Bleicher and Harb 2015, 121) has early Corded Ware pottery. Latest Horgen pottery with associated dendrochronological dating (2764–2762 BC) is reported from Steinhausen Sennweid at Lake Zug (Röder and Huber 2007, 226–30). Although the correlation between felling phases and cultural layers is often difficult or even impossible, it is remarkable that no cultural layers with mixed Horgen and Corded Ware pottery have been reported.
On Lake Biel in western Switzerland, the earliest Corded Ware influences are visible in a dated layer from Sutz Lattrigen Rütte (2726–2688 BC). The layer below (2763–2752/2746 BC) contained no Corded Ware material (Stöckli 2009, 113; Suter in press), another striking example of the apparent speed of change in this period. Rapid and complete changes in pottery

razyn
02-21-2021, 07:05 PM
This one is about Swiss corded Ware

http://orca.cf.ac.uk/97187/3/Ebersbach%2520et%2520al_resubmit_2016_08_18%5B1%5D .pdf

Those look like exceptionally narrow date ranges, for a period that far back. Not as if they have coins with the emperor's face. Shouldn't there be a big plus-or-minus? Or a big grain of salt.

rms2
02-21-2021, 08:05 PM
This is from a Yamnaya conference in 2019, Yamnaya interaction in Europe.

https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/312227/Abstract_book_final.pdf?sequence=1

Lot of familiar names participated in it.
Link has abstracts of their presentations.

Wow! I found this last one, from Piotr Włodarczak, entitled, "Eastern impulse in cultural and demographic changing during the ending southeastern Polish Eneolithic”, very enlightening:



Comparing to other areas of central Europe, the funeral ritual of the Final Eneolithic communities in Małopolska (Lesser Poland) looks quite original. The reason for this is an exceptionally strong connection with the traditions recorded in the North-Western territory of the Black Sea region. This is justified by geographic conditions: the loess highlands of south-eastern Poland are a natural extension of the areas of Volhynia and Podolia. These areas were not only the main route of east-west migrations, but also a zone with desired raw material base (e.g. copper, flints, rock raw materials). In the IIIrd millennium BC, four stages of latitudinal relations stand out, resulting in changes in the funeral rite of the Małopolska communities: I – (ca. 3000-2900 BCE) Pre-Corded, related to the appearance of the oldest kurgan communities (horizon CWC-X), II – (ca. 2800-2600 BCE) associated with the oldest Corded Ware horizon (horizon CWC-A), III – (ca. 2600-2550 BCE) linked to the migration of Middle Dnieper groups and the appearance of features of Catacombnaya culture and IV – (ca. 2400/2300-2000 BCE) associated with the Bell Beakers ritual and the Mierzanowice (Early Bronze Age) communities.

MitchellSince1893
02-21-2021, 10:19 PM
This is from a Yamnaya conference in 2019, Yamnaya interaction in Europe.

https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/312227/Abstract_book_final.pdf?sequence=1

Lot of familiar names participated in it.
Link has abstracts of their presentations.
Thanks for the reputation boast...you know who you are.

Here’s another interesting quote from

The early Corded Ware horizon in the Czech Republic: cases from Bohemia and Moravia: Part Bohemia
Michal Ernée (Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic - Institute of Archaeology, Czech Republic)



where radiocarbon dates were acquired for them, it appears that they fall into the earlier period, i.e. they could make up an important part of the earliest Corded Ware material culture, formally very similar to the non- pottery graves of the Pit Grave culture on the northern Pontic steppe (Kaiser 2013, 211–213). New units (Obříství, with a 14C date in the 29th/28th century BC) document that at least some of the non-pottery graves furnished with bone belt clasps must be attributed to the earliest Corded Ware material culture in Bohemia.

I think it was TigerMW that was earlier inquiring about CWC chronology
From recent links and posts we got

Maloposka 3000-2900 BC Pre-CWC and earliest CWC
Kujawy 2800-2600 per rms2 quote

since been re-subjected to radiocarbon dating and the date revised downward to 2800-2600 BC.

Bohemia 2800-2700s BC per quote above
& Switzerland mid 2700s BC per paper I mentioned in previous post.

MitchellSince1893
02-21-2021, 10:49 PM
Just wanted to get your thoughts on L151 subclades. We know U152 and L21 appear in Bell Beaker. DF27 may as well but I’m not recalling specifics. IIRC U106 appears later in BBC.

According to Ian McDonald’s best guess dating, P312 and U106 could very well be older than CWC.

If so, were they hanging out together in say Malopolska pre/earliest CWC? We’re they in separate CWC groups? P312 in SGC and U106 in Battle Axe?

My often quoted (by me), oldest U152 RISE563 (2542 BC) sample, leads me to believe U152 (and DF27) was born in a pre BBC, CWC timeframe
Based on present day data I wouldn’t be surprised if U152 dominated the Swiss CWC, yet we have isotopic data in ancient L21 in Britain that may connect it to the Alps as well.

rms2
02-21-2021, 11:10 PM
Just wanted to get your thoughts on L151 subclades. We know U152 and L21 appear in Bell Beaker. DF27 may as well but I’m not recalling specifics. IIRC U106 appears later in BBC.

According to Ian McDonald’s best guess dating, P312 and U106 could very well be older than CWC.

If so, were they hanging out together in say Malopolska pre/earliest CWC? We’re they in separate CWC groups? P312 in SGC and U106 in Battle Axe?

My often quoted (by me), oldest U152 RISE563 (2542 BC) sample, leads me to believe U152 (and DF27) was born in a pre BBC, CWC timeframe
Based on present day data I wouldn’t be surprised if U152 dominated the Swiss CWC, yet we have isotopic data in ancient L21 in Britain that may connect it to the Alps as well.

Since Beaker came from Single Grave Corded Ware, I'm guessing we may see P312 (and perhaps some of its older subclades) and U106 in Single Grave Corded Ware. Don't know that for sure, but that's my guess.

rms2
02-21-2021, 11:21 PM
What I like best about that abstract from Włodarczak is the Corded Ware/Małopolska burial rite chronology he gives:

I – (ca. 3000-2900 BCE) Pre-Corded, related to the appearance of the oldest kurgan communities (horizon CWC-X)

II – (ca. 2800-2600 BCE) associated with the oldest Corded Ware horizon (horizon CWC-A)

III – (ca. 2600-2550 BCE) linked to the migration of Middle Dnieper groups and the appearance of features of Catacombnaya culture

IV – (ca. 2400/2300-2000 BCE) associated with the Bell Beakers ritual and the Mierzanowice (Early Bronze Age) communities.

I like things laid out all neat and orderly and analytical like that. Warms my simple heart.

Calling Period I "Pre-Corded" is mind-blowing, IMHO, although I should have figured that out for myself: that's the CWC-X horizon.

Period III is really pretty significant, too, since all those Corded Ware R1b guys in Linderholm et al came from niche/catacomb graves of that period or close to it.

Here's the part of Włodarczak's abstract I left out that deals with that period in greater detail:



The unique character in the Corded Ware circle has primarily the third of the specified stages. In the area of Małopolska appear niche graves, which present the features of Catacombnaya culture, and burials of men equipped with weapons as well as sets of instruments emphasizing craft specialization (first: flint working). Typical is the presence of numerous graves in which the main weapon element is archery equipment. The context for the emergence of such burials is the presence in some of the graves of ceramics characteristic of Middle Dnieper cultural complex. All these characteristics testify to the role of migration (ca. 2600-2500 BCE) from the eastern territories (forest and forest-steppe borderline) in the origin of the new ritual. Specialized analyzes (archeogenetics and stable strontium isotopes) seem to confirm this hypothesis.

So, does the link between Włodarczak's Stage III and Catacombnaya on the NW Black Sea coast mean we might see some R1b-L51 in Catacombnaya from there? Or maybe from the Middle Dnieper culture?

I expect those notions to meet with pushback, but how else does one explain the Linderholm et al results? Those guys damned sure weren't Beaker bleed-overs.

rms2
02-21-2021, 11:47 PM
Hey, if one pays attention to this part of Włodarczak's abstract -



This is justified by geographic conditions: the loess highlands of south-eastern Poland are a natural extension of the areas of Volhynia and Podolia. These areas were not only the main route of east-west migrations, but also a zone with desired raw material base (e.g. copper, flints, rock raw materials).

- he may notice that Włodarczak mentions Volhynia, which is right up there on the border zone between Ukraine and Belarus, which is along the route from the Dnieper preferred by razyn, so it is definitely supportive of razyn's point of view, as well as my own.

Ain't that nice? ;)

rms2
02-22-2021, 12:21 AM
Sorry for blabbing on, but I wanted to say that I have found the recent spate of R1b-L51 (you know what I mean by now) in Corded Ware very liberating. Now I think I know where Beaker came from, and I don't feel like Beaker is all I have to talk about anymore.

I'll get the same feeling of liberation if we ever get past Corded Ware to its source, in Yamnaya or whatever.

I won't need to be liberated beyond that, because once one gets that far back, my eyes glaze over and I start to lose interest.

MitchellSince1893
02-22-2021, 01:17 AM
the loess highlands of south-eastern Poland are a natural extension of the areas of Volhynia and Podolia.


I was thinking of Razyn’s ridge route when I read that




So, does the link between Włodarczak's Stage III and Catacombnaya on the NW Black Sea coast mean we might see some R1b-L51 in Catacombnaya from there?
I’m not following you here. Stage III 2600-2500 BC is too young. By that point U152, L21, DF27 etc are already in existence
Or are you saying stage III is a hint of an earlier stage that followed same route from same culture?

I also lose interest pre-L51.

Per my previous question, there is a good chance that P312 and U106 both pre date SGC. They may have gone their separate ways in SE Poland, with U106 and some minor P312 branches taking a more Baltic/Northerly route, and the rest of P312 going West and southwest. There may be P312 branches that weren’t part of SGC (I know this is close to blasphemy to some) but we are talking about a very tight timeline if P312 and U106 began life prior to CWC and SGC.

McDonald dates for reference
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/table.html
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/table.html

rms2
02-22-2021, 01:33 AM
. . .

I’m not following you here. Stage III 2600-2500 BC is too young. . . .

It's not too young for the migration from Catacombnaya and Middle Dnieper to Małopolska that Włodarczak speaks of. It's just right for that.

Regardless of the likely age of P312, etc., if one reads Linderholm et al, and a number of papers by Włodarczak, he sees that those Małopolska Corded Ware burials from Włodarczak's Stage III reported on in Linderholm et al are essentially Catacombnaya burials. They are ancient, so maybe R1b-L51 (or L52) is as far as it goes, but they point to Catacombnaya on the NW Black Sea coast or maybe to Middle Dnieper. The graves of the R1b guys from Linderholm et al in Małopolska are without fail Catacombnaya graves, and they have Catacombnaya artefacts in them. They predate Beaker in the area, and they have a lot more Yamnaya DNA than Beaker, so they aren't Beaker rip-offs. They also have some sort of weird autosomal DNA connection to Afanasievo, which reminds one that we already have at least one R1b-L51 result in that culture, as well.

So, regardless of where P312, etc., was by that time, the fact that those R1b-L51 guys in Małopolska from Stage III show ties to Catacombnaya could mean that there was R1b-L51 in Catacombnaya on the NW Black Sea coast and/or in Middle Dnieper.

Once again, by R1b-L51 I mean it and anything downstream that is old enough to have been present. Maybe all those R1b CW guys from Linderholm et al were really P312 or U106 and we just couldn't get that far with those old bones.

Sorry for editing this post yet again, but I'm not sure I've made it clear that those CW R1b-L51 guys in Linderholm et al were probably either Catacombnaya migrants themselves or the sons, grandsons, or great-grandsons of such migrants.

rms2
02-22-2021, 02:16 AM
It's not too young for the migration from Catacombnaya and Middle Dnieper to Małopolska that Włodarczak speaks of. It's just right for that.

Regardless of the likely age of P312, etc., if one reads Linderholm et al, and a number of papers by Włodarczak, he sees that those Małopolska Corded Ware burials from Włodarczak's Stage III reported on in Linderholm et al are essentially Catacombnaya burials. They are ancient, so maybe R1b-L51 (or L52) is as far as it goes, but they point to Catacombnaya on the NW Black Sea coast or maybe to Middle Dnieper. The graves of the R1b guys from Linderholm et al in Małopolska are without fail Catacombnaya graves, and they have Catacombnaya artefacts in them. They predate Beaker in the area, and they have a lot more Yamnaya DNA than Beaker, so they aren't Beaker rip-offs. They also have some sort of weird autosomal DNA connection to Afanasievo, which reminds one that we already have at least one R1b-L51 result in that culture, as well.

So, regardless of where P312, etc., was by that time, the fact that those R1b-L51 guys in Małopolska from Stage III show ties to Catacombnaya could mean that there was R1b-L51 in Catacombnaya on the NW Black Sea coast and/or in Middle Dnieper.

Once again, by R1b-L51 I mean it and anything downstream that is old enough to have been present. Maybe all those R1b CW guys from Linderholm et al were really P312 or U106 and we just couldn't get that far with those old bones.

Sorry for editing this post yet again, but I'm not sure I've made it clear that those CW R1b-L51 guys in Linderholm et al were probably either Catacombnaya migrants themselves or the sons, grandsons, or great-grandsons of such migrants.

Guess editing that post again is not a good idea, but what I meant is that Włodarczak's Stage III (2600-2500 BC) isn't about the very first movement of R1b-L51 into Europe west of the steppe.

It's about the subsequent migration of Catacombnaya or perhaps Middle Dnieper people to Małopolska.

If one reads Linderholm et al carefully (which I must confess I did not do at first), he will see that all those Corded Ware R1b guys in it were buried in Catacombnaya-style graves with Catacombnaya-style artefacts, and they were heavily eastern-shifted, with some sort of autosomal DNA connection to Afanasievo (cue the 1950s sci-fi music).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYaT704C7_w

What that means is that, regardless of the first wave of R1b-L51 into Europe west of the steppe, those Corded Ware R1b guys reported on in Linderholm were the products of the Stage III migration, 2600-2500 BC, from Catacombnaya and/or Middle Dnieper to Małopolska.

So, all the L51 that ended up in Europe west of the steppe did not come all at once in the first wave.

MitchellSince1893
02-22-2021, 03:14 AM
I know some feel McDonald dates are too old and other feel yfull dates are too young.
I took the liberty of taking the average of the 2.
McDonald had an updated version of his P312 dates but he didn't make it public, so I can't post a link to it, but I can still use it to create an average with the Yfull dates

Formation dates: Yfull/McDonald/Average
U106: 2850 BC/3022 BC/2936 BC
P312: 2850 BC/3079 BC/2965 BC

So the average of the averages for both U106 & P312's formation is 2950 BC. For the sake of discussion, let's assume this is close to the truth.
This could place both of them in the SE Poland region (little Poland/Malopolska) where pre CWC/earliest CWC was forming 3000-2900 BC, but appears to be too early to be in other Corded Ware regions including SGC.

Formation dates: Yfull/McDonald/Average
DF27: 2550 BC/2973 BC/2762 BC
U152: 2550 BC/2685 BC/2618 BC
These two come from the same man (mutations ZZ11 & Z38841), so they should be close to each other in formation. Their average of averages is 2690 BC for a formation date. This would place them in a SGC/pre Bell Beaker timeframe, which may indicate they were born in one of the SGC areas in e.g. the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Switzerland

ZZ11,Z38841 would be a little older than this. Based on the age difference between S245 & L21 (see below), I would estimate 2814 BC for formation of ZZ11.

Formation dates: Yfull/McDonald/Average
DF99: 2550 BC/2838 BC/2694 BC.
ZZ37: 2550 BC/2743 BC/2647 BC. Still in the ball park of the others above
DF99 and ZZ37 share a common ancestor/mutation (Z40481) with ZZ11, Z38841 (DF27 & U152 shared mutations).

Z40481 is going to be older than Z11’s 2814 BC. Again using the S245 & L21 age difference for single mutation , I estimate Z40481 to have formed around 2876 BC. Like S245, Z40481 is right below the P312 block.

Formation dates: Yfull/McDonald/Average
S245 (parent branch of L21): 2550 BC/2981 BC/2766 BC
L21: 2550 BC/2858 BC/2704 BC. This is very close to dates above; and again would place L21 in the SGC timeframe; my guess is either in the Dutch or Swiss regions along the Rhine.

DF19: 2550 BC/2808 BC/2679 BC, which again is close to the dates above.


I must admit that the tight range of these P312 subclade yfull/mcdonald average dates (2766-2647 BC) is an unexpected and encouraging outcome; chronologically places them in the SGC timeframe (which began ~2800 BC)

TigerMW
02-22-2021, 11:04 AM
So the average of the averages for both U106 & P312's formation is 2950 BC. For the sake of discussion, let's assume this is close to the truth.
This could place both of them in the SE Poland region (little Poland/Malopolska) where pre CWC/earliest CWC was forming 3000-2900 BC, but appears to be too early to be in other Corded Ware regions including SGC.

We have to be a little careful with estimated dates. I've checked the YFull's vs McDonald vs what FTDNA is doing which is a take-off of both. All these methods need manual tweaking (today) as some as the variance in mutation rates is enough to cause real anomalies. That's a long discussion and I like to look at TMRCA dates too, as they are clearly better than nothing. The phylogeny and timing are points well taken. They are the result of some rapid star-like expansion.

For general discussion and from my perspective and interest, general L51 and cultural discussions are good background but the expansion of Indo-European cultural practices and R1b expansion through East Europe and into West/Central Europe is going to come down to the generations of the P310>L151 lineage and its descendants. The finding of R1b-P310 in Mongolia in Afanasievo around 3000 BC is a critical, factual piece of the puzzle, especially in connection with the R1b-P310 and P310>L151 in Switzerland around 2700 BC.

I don't know if this has to do with R1b, but Razib Kahn (Feb. 6, Youtube) said that upcoming results will show that "men three to five thousand years ago are buried in Mongolia in the Altais ... who are like 3rd or 4th cousins to men buried that were buried on the Dnieper ... buried just like a generation or two previous".

He attributes this to an "patrilineal cultural arrangement" or "clan" system that was "extremely effective" at "intergroup warfare".

He thinks out loud a lot, but that's okay. He uses common sense (i.e. they don't call a battle-axe a battle-axe for ceremonial reasons) and eventually discloses the probable despite political incorrectness. He also doesn't have prejudices about what his ancestors looked like. We are what we are and out ancestors were what they were.

rms2
02-22-2021, 01:12 PM
. . .

I don't know if this has to do with R1b, but Razib Kahn (Feb. 6, Youtube) said that upcoming results will show that "men three to five thousand years ago are buried in Mongolia in the Altais ... who are like 3rd or 4th cousins to men buried that were buried on the Dnieper buried ... just like a generation or two previous".

. . .



It would be cool if they were R1b-L51 (of some kind) and we could tie them not only to Middle Dnieper but to those Linderholm et al Corded Ware burials from Włodarczak's Stage III in Małopolska.

Probably too much to hope for, but Linderholm does say, on page 5 of the Supplementary Information of her 2020 paper:



The carried out comparative analyses indicated the closeness of the genetic pool of the Małopolska CWC and the Afanasievo culture.

MitchellSince1893
02-22-2021, 02:33 PM
...I like to look at TMRCA dates too, as they are clearly better than nothing. The phylogeny and timing are points well taken. They are the result of some rapid star-like expansion...

I don’t have access to McDonald’s TMRCA directly from McDonald, but ytree.net does calculate TMRCA based on McDonald’s methodology. And of course Yfull calculates TMRCA as well

For example, Here is link to U152 TMRCA of 2473 BC
http://www.ytree.net/BlockInfo.php?blockID=28

Yfull gets 2450 BC

Pylsteen
02-22-2021, 03:01 PM
The McDonald ages are really close to the age I would get from BigY data I have on Z56, which at the moment display a median of ~56 mutations from U152; using the age of 83y/(Y700 SNP) I often see mentioned, this gives a median age of ~2698 BC for U152.

razyn
02-22-2021, 03:22 PM
Not trying to change the topic, but I just (yesterday) got a copy of the Anthony et al (2016) volume about the Samara Valley Project. It was mentioned here a number of times, from about Sept. 2016, but not really discussed much (and mostly on threads that got shut down). Anyway, while looking around for commentary on it I ran across an old post of Jean Manco's about copper metallurgy that piqued my interest, given our recent chatter about R1b-L51 in Afanasievo. So I'll tag that: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?818-How-and-where-did-R1b-get-into-the-Bell-Beaker-folks&p=5699&viewfull=1#post5699. The line that caught my eye was
The Afansievo people seem to have introduced metallurgy to East Asia. At one time it was thought to be an independent invention there.

The Samara Valley Project, as such, tended to cover settlements and artifacts a little later than what we need for this thread. But it's a nice big book, not all that old, full of maps and photos of things that may be of interest as this story continues to unfold. Khokhlov was one of the co-authors. I have more coffee table books than I have room available on a coffee table, so I parked it on a cupboard to take a picture. Other objects are nearby, for scale. 43459

TigerMW
02-22-2021, 03:46 PM
I don’t have access to McDonald’s TMRCA directly from McDonald, but ytree.net does calculate TMRCA based on McDonald’s methodology. And of course Yfull calculates TMRCA as well

For example, Here is link to U152 TMRCA of 2473 BC
http://www.ytree.net/BlockInfo.php?blockID=28

Yfull gets 2450 BC

What's the RC dating of the oldest U152>L2 guy? That puts a floor on the age of the U152 MRCA.

VladimirTaraskin
02-22-2021, 04:07 PM
It would be cool if they were R1b-L51 (of some kind) and we could tie them not only to Middle Dnieper but to those Linderholm et al Corded Ware burials from Włodarczak's Stage III in Małopolska.

Probably too much to hope for, but Linderholm does say, on page 5 of the Supplementary Information of her 2020 paper:

The only thing that connects the middle Dnieper and Afanasievo is the Repino culture

Dewsloth
02-22-2021, 05:11 PM
I know some feel McDonald dates are too old and other feel yfull dates are too young.
I took the liberty of taking the average of the 2.
McDonald had an updated version of his P312 dates but he didn't make it public, so I can't post a link to it, but I can still use it to create an average with the Yfull dates

Formation dates: Yfull/McDonald/Average
U106: 2850 BC/3022 BC/2936 BC
P312: 2850 BC/3079 BC/2965 BC

So the average of the averages for both U106 & P312's formation is 2950 BC. For the sake of discussion, let's assume this is close to the truth.
This could place both of them in the SE Poland region (little Poland/Malopolska) where pre CWC/earliest CWC was forming 3000-2900 BC, but appears to be too early to be in other Corded Ware regions including SGC.

Formation dates: Yfull/McDonald/Average
DF27: 2550 BC/2973 BC/2762 BC
U152: 2550 BC/2685 BC/2618 BC
These two come from the same man (mutations ZZ11 & Z38841), so they should be close to each other in formation. Their average of averages is 2690 BC for a formation date. This would place them in a SGC/pre Bell Beaker timeframe, which may indicate they were born in one of the SGC areas in e.g. the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Switzerland

ZZ11,Z38841 would be a little older than this. Based on the age difference between S245 & L21 (see below), I would estimate 2814 BC for formation of ZZ11.

Formation dates: Yfull/McDonald/Average
DF99: 2550 BC/2838 BC/2694 BC.
ZZ37: 2550 BC/2743 BC/2647 BC. Still in the ball park of the others above
DF99 and ZZ37 share a common ancestor/mutation (Z40481) with ZZ11, Z38841 (DF27 & U152 shared mutations).

Z40481 is going to be older than Z11’s 2814 BC. Again using the S245 & L21 age difference for single mutation , I estimate Z40481 to have formed around 2876 BC. Like S245, Z40481 is right below the P312 block.

Formation dates: Yfull/McDonald/Average
S245 (parent branch of L21): 2550 BC/2981 BC/2766 BC
L21: 2550 BC/2858 BC/2704 BC. This is very close to dates above; and again would place L21 in the SGC timeframe; my guess is either in the Dutch or Swiss regions along the Rhine.

DF19: 2550 BC/2808 BC/2679 BC, which again is close to the dates above.


I must admit that the tight range of these P312 subclade yfull/mcdonald average dates (2766-2647 BC) is an unexpected and encouraging outcome; chronologically places them in the SGC timeframe (which began ~2800 BC)

McDonald's method suffers greatly when there aren't a lot of samples to create an estimate. P312>DF19>Z302 is such an occurrence.

I don't know if he's updated it, but on his chart at http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/tree.html he had P312>DF19>Z302/DF87 as forming in 1100 AD, which is im-fricking-possible.

Z302 (he calls it by another member of the Z302 block, DF87) formed back in Beaker times, if not SGC/CW, just like DF19>DF88.
Meanwhile yfull has Z302/DF87 as formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybp; and DF88 as formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp

rms2
02-22-2021, 06:33 PM
The only thing that connects the middle Dnieper and Afanasievo is the Repino culture

That's right, at least according to Anthony.

Do we have any ancient DNA from Repin?

Here are some quotes from Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language (2007) on the Repin-to-Afanasievo migration I collected (just for grins).

From pages 274-275:



Repin, excavated in the 1950s, was located 250 km upstream from Razdorskoe, on the middle Don at the edge of the feather-grass steppe.

. . .

The Afanasievo migration to the Altai was carried out by people with a Repin-type material culture, probably from the middle Volga-Ural region.

From page 306:



In the last chapter I introduced the subject of the trans-continental, Repin-culture migration that created the Afanasievo culture in the western Altai Mountains and probably detached the Tocharian branch from common Proto-Indo-European. I describe it here because the process of migration and return migration that installed the early Afanasievo culture continued across the north Kazakh steppes during the Yamnaya period.

From pages 308-309:



In the western Altai Mountains broad meadows and mountain steppes dip both westward toward the Irtysh River of western Siberia (probably the route of first approach) and northward toward the Ob and Yenisei rivers (the later spread). The Afanasievo culture appeared in this beautiful setting, ideal for upland pastoralism, probably around 3700-3400 BCE, during the Repin-late Khvalynsk period

MitchellSince1893
02-22-2021, 08:01 PM
What's the RC dating of the oldest U152>L2 guy? That puts a floor on the age of the U152 MRCA.

I don't have an exhaustive list but here is what I've been able to dig up. Best I can tell 2242 BC is the current "floor".
Earliest mid point 2351 BC, and quite a few have 2350 BC (2500-2200 BC)

For reference yfull's formation date for L2 is 2450 BC, which isn't too far off from ytree's TMCRA date for U152 (2473 BC). McDonald didn't have a date for L2's formation, but the oldest U152 branch he does have a formation date for is FGC4183 at 2614 BC

-I3875 BB_Southern_France France U152>L2 2459-2242 BCE Mean 2351 BCE
-I2365 BB_Central_Europe Hungary U152>L2 2465-2205 BCE Mean 2335 BCE
-E09569 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2397-2149 BCE Mean 2273 BCE
-I3589 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE Mean 2225 BCE
-I3597 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE Mean 2225 BCE

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/79/85/44/7985440efd6d9f68b77f8e532a651994.png

rms2
02-22-2021, 10:00 PM
I'm sure I've done this frequently throughout this thread, but I have to pause to moan and groan about the papers we've been anticipating for a long time. Where are they?

Of course, I have to recall that we were discussing Beaker for years before Olalde et al came along and satisfied a lot of longings in that direction.

Anyway, I hope at least that promised - or rumored - Single Grave Corded Ware paper appears soon: like within the next week or two.

Come on, Reich, or whoever is responsible! Please!

MitchellSince1893
02-23-2021, 12:47 AM
...

-I3875 BB_Southern_France France U152>L2 2459-2242 BCE Mean 2351BCE
-I2365 BB_Central_Europe Hungary U152>L2 2465-2205 BCE Mean 2335 BCE
-E09569 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2397-2149 BCE Mean 2273 BCE
-I3589 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE Mean 2225 BCE
-I3597 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE Mean 2225 BCE



Looking at another source (old online map for the FTDNA U152 project that has since taken down) has the following
I3875 Location: Villard, France Age: C14 dated: 4475–4250 BP (2525-2300 BC assuming BC = BP -1950 AD)
I2365, Location: Budapest-Békásmegyer, Hungary Age: C14 dated: 4475–4225 BP (2525-2275 BC)

Not sure what's causing the difference in the above dates, but if accurate it would push the U152 TMRCA floor back from 2242 to 2300 BC

VladimirTaraskin
02-23-2021, 02:54 PM
That's right, at least according to Anthony.

Do we have any ancient DNA from Repin?

Here are some quotes from Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language (2007) on the Repin-to-Afanasievo migration I collected (just for grins).

From pages 274-275:



From page 306:



From pages 308-309:

Waiting for the paper. For several years, there has been a study of the Eneolite of the Don steppe and forest-steppe, just where the reference site of the Repino culture is located. Davidski said that an ideal sample of 4000 BC was found in this area, the autosomal composition of which is almost the same as Yamnaya and CWC (if EEF is excluded from it).

etrusco
02-23-2021, 03:08 PM
Waiting for the paper. For several years, there has been a study of the Eneolite of the Don steppe and forest-steppe, just where the reference site of the Repino culture is located. Davidski said that an ideal sample of 4000 BC was found in this area, the autosomal composition of which is almost the same as Yamnaya and CWC (if EEF is excluded from it).

and the sample was rumoured to be a R1a M417 IIRC. Orlovka near Rostov was the location.

VladimirTaraskin
02-23-2021, 03:37 PM
and the sample was rumoured to be a R1a M417 IIRC. Orlovka near Rostov was the location.


This is generally excellent, if we adhere to the concept that the Repino culture originated from the population of the practice of the Koisug burial type, which first appear in the area of Botaisk, it is about 70 km to the village of Orlovka. All this is the left bank of the Lower Don.

rms2
02-23-2021, 03:46 PM
and the sample was rumoured to be a R1a M417 IIRC. Orlovka near Rostov was the location.

I heard a different rumor. Can't reveal the source, but I heard R1b-L51 was found in ancient samples near Rostov. Not sure of the culture, but they're old and from the steppe Eneolithic, before Yamnaya.

I have not mentioned it here yet, because there are already enough rumors out there. Time will tell if any of them is true.

etrusco
02-23-2021, 03:52 PM
I heard a different rumor. Can't reveal the source, but I heard R1b-L51 was found in ancient samples near Rostov. Not sure of the culture, but they're old and from the steppe Eneolithic, before Yamnaya.

I have not mentioned it here yet, because there are already enough rumors out there. Time will tell if any of them is true.

The rumour on R1a was from a trustworthy source. Both expanded with Yamnaya/like dna so they are not mutually exclusive in the area. This would be a link with Afanasievo/Repin as for the R1b

rms2
02-23-2021, 03:59 PM
The rumour on R1a was from a trustworthy source. Both expanded with Yamnaya/like dna so they are not mutually exclusive in the area. This would be a link with Afanasievo/Repin as for the R1b

The source of the rumor I heard is trustworthy, too: someone who knows.

I'm just very tired of waiting for the fulfillment of these rumors - believe me, there are several more, but I'm keeping my mouth shut for now.

I started hearing them back in September of 2019, so it has been awhile.

BTW, I'm not blaming the source. I blame the pandemic for the delays.

VladimirTaraskin
02-23-2021, 04:10 PM
The source of the rumor I heard is trustworthy, too: someone who knows.

I'm just very tired of waiting for the fulfillment of these rumors - believe me, there are several more, but I'm keeping my mouth shut for now.

I started hearing them back in September of 2019, so it has been awhile.

BTW, I'm not blaming the source. I blame the pandemic for the delays.

This particular work is being prepared by about 10 research centers from Harvard, Oxford to Max Planck together. There have already been two presentations in Oxford and Helsinki. Maybe they're planning to write something big like Narasimhan's work.

rms2
02-23-2021, 04:16 PM
This particular work is being prepared by about 10 research centers from Harvard, Oxford to Max Planck together. There have already been two presentations in Oxford and Helsinki. Maybe they're planning to write something big like Narasimhan's work.

That sounds good. Maybe they found both R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 among the remains they tested. That would be great.

TigerMW
02-23-2021, 10:34 PM
What's the RC dating of the oldest U152>L2 guy? That puts a floor on the age of the U152 MRCA.
I don't have an exhaustive list but here is what I've been able to dig up. Best I can tell 2242 BC is the current "floor".
Earliest mid point 2351 BC, and quite a few have 2350 BC (2500-2200 BC)
...
-I3875 BB_Southern_France France U152>L2 2459-2242 BCE Mean 2351 BCE
-I2365 BB_Central_Europe Hungary U152>L2 2465-2205 BCE Mean 2335 BCE
-E09569 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2397-2149 BCE Mean 2273 BCE
-I3589 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE Mean 2225 BCE
-I3597 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE Mean 2225 BCE

I didn't want to be lazy so I checked out L21. The oldest ancient R-L21 would also put a floor on the age of R1b-P312>Z290 MRCA. As expected, I found this individual (from Reich's Allen Ancient Data Resource [today]).

I5379 Bell Beaker - England, Dorset, Sixpenny Handley, 2468-2294 BC, Mean 2333 BC - R1b1a1b1a1a2c1 (R1b-L151>P312>Z290>L21)

To my amazement, the next oldest L21 is the below. Have I been sleeping? I did expect to see ancient L21 on the Continent, as we have seen in SE France, but not SE Poland. I had not seen this particular call.

PCW110 CordedWare.SG - Southeastern Poland, Szczytna, 2500-2200 BC, Mean 2300 BC - R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1a (R1b-L151>P312>Z290>L21>DF13>Z39589)

It's a DF13 guy to boot!

Back on the bigger point. Both L2 and L21 are pointing to a floor on the youngest possibility for R1b-P312's MRCA to be about 2300 BC. Given, that L2 is three SNPs downstream of the P312 MRCA and L21 is four SNPs downstream I suggest the youngest reasonable date for the P312 MRCA is about 2500 BC. That's the latest date. It could easily be 500 years earlier (older).

rms2
02-23-2021, 11:46 PM
I didn't want to be lazy so I checked out L21. The oldest ancient R-L21 would also put a floor on the age of R1b-P312>Z290 MRCA. I expected this (from Reich's Allen Ancient Data Resource [today]).

I5379 Bell Beaker - England, Dorset, Sixpenny Handley, 2468-2294 BC, Mean 2333 BC - R1b1a1b1a1a2c1 (R1b-L151>P312>Z290>L21)

To my amazement, the next oldest L21 is the below. Have I been sleeping? I did expect to see ancient L21 on the Continent, as we have seen in SE France, but not SE Poland. I had not seen this particular call.

PCW110 CordedWare.SG - Southeastern Poland, Szczytna, 2500-2200 BC, Mean 2300 BC - R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1a (R1b-L151>P312>Z290>L21>DF13>Z39589)

It's a DF13 guy to boot!

Back on the bigger point. Both L2 and L21 are pointing to a floor on the youngest possibility for R1b-P312's MRCA to be about 2300 BC. Given, that L2 is three SNPs downstream of the P312 MRCA and L21 is four SNPs downstream I suggest the youngest reasonable date for the P312 MRCA is about 2500 BC. That's the latest date. It could easily be 500 years earlier (older).

Where did you hear that pcw110 from Szczytna was R1b-L21? He's one of the Corded Ware guys from Linderholm et al.

I think that would be great, but that would be huge news, and definitely news to me.

Last I heard, all they had on him was R1b-L23.

rms2
02-24-2021, 12:39 AM
Where did you hear that pcw110 from Szczytna was R1b-L21? He's one of the Corded Ware guys from Linderholm et al.

I think that would be great, but that would be huge news, and definitely news to me.

Last I heard, all they had on him was R1b-L23.

I think I found it in the Reich anno file spreadsheet.

43490

I'll have to be a pest and email about that one, because, if it's true, that would make my year, maybe even my decade.

rms2
02-24-2021, 12:59 AM
Well, I sent off my email.

We'll see if I get an answer. I'm expecting maybe to get an answer but to be disappointed by it. :(

MitchellSince1893
02-24-2021, 03:09 AM
I didn't want to be lazy so I checked out L21. The oldest ancient R-L21 would also put a floor on the age of R1b-P312>Z290 MRCA. As expected, I found this individual (from Reich's Allen Ancient Data Resource [today]).

I5379 Bell Beaker - England, Dorset, Sixpenny Handley, 2468-2294 BC, Mean 2333 BC - R1b1a1b1a1a2c1 (R1b-L151>P312>Z290>L21)

To my amazement, the next oldest L21 is the below. Have I been sleeping? I did expect to see ancient L21 on the Continent, as we have seen in SE France, but not SE Poland. I had not seen this particular call.

PCW110 CordedWare.SG - Southeastern Poland, Szczytna, 2500-2200 BC, Mean 2300 BC - R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1a (R1b-L151>P312>Z290>L21>DF13>Z39589)

It's a DF13 guy to boot!

Back on the bigger point. Both L2 and L21 are pointing to a floor on the youngest possibility for R1b-P312's MRCA to be about 2300 BC. Given, that L2 is three SNPs downstream of the P312 MRCA and L21 is four SNPs downstream I suggest the youngest reasonable date for the P312 MRCA is about 2500 BC. That's the latest date. It could easily be 500 years earlier (older).

Do you have a link to “ Reich's Allen Ancient Data Resource”

Also for the P312 floor don’t forget about RISE563 who is dated 2572-2512 BC and is U152, thus 3-4 mutations (Z40481, ZZ11, Z38841 and possibly Z1904) removed from P312.

Even if we got lucky and RISE563 was the very first U152 man (highly doubtful IMO) it would push youngest reasonable date for P312 into the 2600s BC. Realistically I think the youngest date for P312 is 2700s BC for formation

TigerMW
02-24-2021, 03:58 AM
Do you have a link to “ Reich's Allen Ancient Data Resource”

Also for the P312 floor don’t forget about RISE563 who is dated 2572-2512 BC and is U152, thus 3-4 mutations (Z40481, ZZ11, Z38841 and possibly Z1904) removed from P312.

Even if we got lucky and RISE563 was the very first U152 man (highly doubtful IMO) it would push youngest reasonable date for P312 into the 2600s BC. Realistically I think the youngest date for P312 is 2700s BC for formation

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/allen-ancient-dna-resource-aadr-downloadable-genotypes-present-day-and-ancient-dna-data

I agree on P312’s age. I just wanted to start with an extremely conservative base which the RC dating low range values give us. It’s hard to argue with that. I want to see how far we can push it back... to SGC? or even before?

Tolan
02-24-2021, 05:15 AM
PCW110 CordedWare.SG - Southeastern Poland, Szczytna, 2500-2200 BC, Mean 2300 BC - R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1a (R1b-L151>P312>Z290>L21>DF13>Z39589)

It's a DF13 guy to boot!



Where did you read that?
I see it L23 here, with no known subclade ...
https://indo-european.eu/all-ancient-dna.pdf

With this source, I mapped the ancient L151 descendants with known subclade, and from before JC:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1yxDNM--353smpevNu0YeQmqRAi2-eZLV&usp=sharing

It's amazing to see that there are only L21s in the British Isles.
I would have thought that those entering the Isle Britain, were a little more mixed with other sub-clades ...

rms2
02-24-2021, 12:57 PM
Where did you read that?
I see it L23 here, with no known subclade ...
https://indo-european.eu/all-ancient-dna.pdf

With this source, I mapped the ancient L151 descendants with known subclade, and from before JC:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1yxDNM--353smpevNu0YeQmqRAi2-eZLV&usp=sharing

It's amazing to see that there are only L21s in the British Isles.
I would have thought that those entering the Isle Britain, were a little more mixed with other sub-clades ...

It's here (https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/allen-ancient-dna-resource-aadr-downloadable-genotypes-present-day-and-ancient-dna-data), in the anno file.

43517

TigerMW
02-24-2021, 03:48 PM
Where did you read that?
I see it L23 here, with no known subclade ...
https://indo-european.eu/all-ancient-dna.pdf


That is a secondary source. If a primary source is available, such as the Reich lab’s Allen Ancient Data Resource, I’d use them. However, anyone can make interpretation errors so I am glad RMS2 is pursuing confirmation.

rms2
02-24-2021, 03:56 PM
That is a secondary source. If a primary source is available, such as the Reich lab’s Allen Ancient Data Resource, I’d use them. However, anyone can make interpretation errors so I am glad RMS2 is pursuing confirmation.

I emailed Dr. Lazaridis, who answered my question about one of those entries last time. I'm not sure he'll answer a second such query. We'll see.

rms2
02-24-2021, 04:23 PM
Below is a map from page 7 of the paper by Louise Olerud of Leiden University in the Netherlands entitled, "The time-depth of Corded Ware burial landscapes: A comparative study of Single Grave and Battle Axe burial alignments in Denmark, The Netherlands and Sweden" (2017).

The map doesn't name all the regional variants of Corded Ware. Most of them are subsumed in the blob labeled "Corded Ware". Besides that, "Ocher Grave" (Ochre Grave) is not a Corded Ware regional variant. It's another name for Yamnaya.

It's a good paper, though. I'm still working my way through it.

43520

TigerMW
02-24-2021, 04:35 PM
I emailed Dr. Lazaridis, who answered my question about one of those entries last time. I'm not sure he'll answer a second such query. We'll see.
I'm not going to say much in L21 groups about this yet. There has been a long history of people calling L21 the Atlantic Celt branch and asserting L21 originated on the British Isles. It's possible, but given that L21 came in with the Bell Beakers and L21 is probably older than the British Bell Beakers, the window is small for L21 to have originated on Britain.

A 2300 BC R-L21 person in SE Poland puts a big hole in a British origin.

I'll hold tight until we get some kind of secondary confirmation. If the AADR interpretation is based just on Z39589 that's a little thin. It's an InDel that I think Alex Williamson found. By the way, this shows you the value of his work.

It would be ideal to see derived calls (and of course zero ancestral calls) in an SNP or two from these phylogenetic blocks above R-Z39589.

Z290, Z245, Z260

L21, L459

DF13, Z2542

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-Z290

PS. RMS2, there is a new point on the other side of the argument pointing to a woman and child buried with a Bell Beaker pot at about 2500 BC along where a tunnel is being built by Stonehenge. I haven't seen a real science paper published yet on it and we don't if the child was male or the dating is finalized.
https://www.livescience.com/stonehenge-graves-enclosure-discovered-tunnel-construction.html

rms2
02-24-2021, 05:39 PM
Depends on what kind of "beaker" it was. There were evidently "bell beakers" in Britain before the arrival of the Beaker people.

This is from Henri Hubert's The History of the Celtic People, pages 171-172:



The old Neolithic inhabitants (among whom I include those of all the beginning of the Bronze Age) were long-heads of Mediterranean type, who built for their dead, or, at least, for the more distinguished of them, tumuli with a funeral chamber known as the "long barrows", in which one sometimes finds those curious bell-shaped beakers adorned at regular intervals with bands of incised or stamped decoration, of a very simple and austere type. The newcomers were of quite a different type, and had other funeral practices.

Looking at the photo at the link you provided, that looks like a Beaker burial, not a Neolithic farmer burial. Of course, we know "about 4,500 years ago" could mean much later than that. As I recall, the very oldest Beaker burials in Britain date to around 2400 BC.

rms2
02-24-2021, 06:57 PM
My guess is that those newly-found Beaker burials (https://www.livescience.com/stonehenge-graves-enclosure-discovered-tunnel-construction.html) will date to around the same time period as the other Beaker burials in the neighborhood of Stone Henge: sometime between 2400 and 2300 BC.

dsm
02-24-2021, 09:00 PM
Tolan: "Where did you read that?
I see it L23 here, with no known subclade ...
https://indo-european.eu/all-ancient-dna.pdf"

That indo-european site source needs careful vetting. He still has a P312 listed at Khvalynsk (based on the rumour back in 2018 and never substantiated).

The Reich Labs list is the one to fall back on.

dsm
02-25-2021, 12:32 AM
TRANSLATED RUSSIAN PAPER FROM 2013

For a long time I have been looking at the various possible routes that a R1b-L23-L51 group might have taken from the Volga-Ural region (i.e. Samara) to get to Poland & the other parts of western Europe.

My attention has always been drawn to the reality that Amber was being traded between the Baltic (Lithuania-Latvia-Poland shores) and groups in central Russia (including along the upper Volga). Around 3,200 BCE the upper Volga was home to the Volosovo (after 3,700 BCE) and graves of these peoples show examples of worked Amber that came from the Baltic coastline.

Just today I came across a 2013 publication named "THE INGUL-DONETS EARLY BRONZE CIVILIZATION AS SPRINGBOARD FOR TRANSMISSION OF PONTIC CULTURAL PATTERNS TO THE BALTIC DRAINAGE BASIN 3200 - 1750 BC (aka I-DEBC) " - naturally this title and the dates really grabbed my attention.

When reading it, I came across the below map that was even more interesting as it lists various routes different archeologists looked at and the #1 listed route that really caught my eye was Maria Gimbutas showing a route from Volga-Kama River (middle Volga) to close by Moscow and over to the Baltic around Latvia. This is what I have been looking for as 'one' possible route that L51 might have had access to 'if' they were moving from the middle Volga to the north and then west.

There are then the other routes but #2 is really also very interesting. From Samra down the Volga, over to the Don (around Volgograd - aka Stalingrad), down the Don then around the coast of the Sea of Azov and then up the Dnieper (and also the Dniester) and then into Poland right where much of today's discussions are focusing.

Both these routes need to be considered for L51. Hopefully more aBurial finds will lean towards one or the other (or both ?). For me, am happy to consider these routes as documented by experts of the day and that here many years later, they still look very good work.

The 1st grab below is showing the map - read it carefully as it is a challenge to follow the lines precisely. Am satisfied the #1 route listed as by Maria Gimbutas, at the top (the one going up the Volga), goes from the Kama River at the Volga-Kama rivers junction, up the Volga past Nizhny Novgorod and further up past Yaroslavl then to Rybinsk (at the Rybinsk reservoir) then west on the Volga through Tver and eventually over to Lithuania/Poland. This fits well with an Amber trade route of around this era.


Here is the map from the paper (page 18), with relevant names added ...

43533


Here is a clearer map of central Russia that puts the Gimbutas route into even clearer perspective. ...
43538

And yet another map that adds further perspective on the lower route through the Volga-Don rivers ...
43539

***********************************************

Here are some extracts from the doc. There are many more ...

One interesting extract from Page 14 :
"In the case of Danube-Carpathian civilization centres, the reception mechanisms of their patterns on the Baltic varied. They included inter-regional 'segmental' adaptation owing to permanent contacts (chiefly mediated by the 'northern'
communities of the Globular Amphora culture - GAC, CWC and Bell Beakers
culture). Other such mechanisms were intrusion (proto-~n~tice culture followed by
Otomani-Fiizesabony culture), colonization (~n~tice culture) and, in the broadest
version, the formation of frontier affinity-based communities (examples include
the Carpathians Foothill Cultural Circle and later the Trzciniec culture). "

**********

Another interesting extract:
"The discussions of the autogenesis of the I-DEBC (in another approach: Yamnaya-Catacomb stage in the development of Pontic Early Bronze cultures) can be
summed up as a sequence of the following conclusions:
In parallel to the disintegration of Late Tripolye cultures, a 'Caucasian
reorientation' takes place, shifting neighbour contacts of steppe settling
communities towards Maikop culture +Kura-Araxes culture centres.
The first taxonomic record of the reorientation is the Zhivotilovka-Volchansk groupltype (horizon?). On the Northern Pontic steppe. Caucasian
metal goods appear then.
Simultaneously, another identifiable direction in the set of 'new ties' of
steppe populations points to the Middle East civilizations: those of Anatolia and the eastern Mediterranean.
In the development of Northern Pontic steppe communities, the I-DEBC
should be identified with the time of demographic and economic growth,
and the reception of exogenous ideologies and rites. This is illustrated by complex forms of space organization: central settlements (of the
Mikhailovka or Leventsovka type) -situated in the nodes of the trade route
network -and monumental -in comparison to the practices followed until
that time -ritual centres [Pustovalov 1994; 1995; 1997; 2005; Rassamakin
1994; 1999; Klochko 20081.
Keeping in mind the above comments, one must notice the developmental
autonomy of the 'Ingul-Donets' Early Bronze civilization centre (Fig. la,
lb, 2, 3). This is especially true for the 'classic' discussion of its development relations with the Caucasian civilization centre.
The I-DEBC is part of the Circum-Pontic metallurgic province covering,
according to Evgenij N. Chernykh (Chernpkh et nl.2000), vast expanses of
land with varied composite metallurgy centres in the Caucasus, Anatolia,
parts of Mesopotamia. the Balkans, Carpathian Basin.and Northern Pontic
Area, including the Carpathian-Volhynian zone [see Klochko, Klochko ...,
in this volume]. "

A link to the publication = https://www.academia.edu/36277976/The_Baltic_drainage_basin_in_the_reconstruction_of _the_Mental_Map_of_Central_Europe_Held_in_common_b y_Northern_Pontic_Early_Bronze_Civilization_Commun ities_3200_1600_BC_An_outline_of_the_research_prog ramme_Pozna%C5%84_2013_Baltic_Pontic_Studies_vol_1 8_P_9_20?email_work_card=title

MitchellSince1893
02-25-2021, 01:35 AM
I didn't want to be lazy so I checked out L21. The oldest ancient R-L21 would also put a floor on the age of R1b-P312>Z290 MRCA. As expected, I found this individual (from Reich's Allen Ancient Data Resource [today]).

I5379 Bell Beaker - England, Dorset, Sixpenny Handley, 2468-2294 BC, Mean 2333 BC - R1b1a1b1a1a2c1 (R1b-L151>P312>Z290>L21)

To my amazement, the next oldest L21 is the below. Have I been sleeping? I did expect to see ancient L21 on the Continent, as we have seen in SE France, but not SE Poland. I had not seen this particular call.

PCW110 CordedWare.SG - Southeastern Poland, Szczytna, 2500-2200 BC, Mean 2300 BC - R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1a (R1b-L151>P312>Z290>L21>DF13>Z39589)

It's a DF13 guy to boot!

Back on the bigger point. Both L2 and L21 are pointing to a floor on the youngest possibility for R1b-P312's MRCA to be about 2300 BC. Given, that L2 is three SNPs downstream of the P312 MRCA and L21 is four SNPs downstream I suggest the youngest reasonable date for the P312 MRCA is about 2500 BC. That's the latest date. It could easily be 500 years earlier (older).

I dug into that AADR for U152 L2 (top left link under “anno” header)

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/allen-ancient-dna-resource-aadr-downloadable-genotypes-present-day-and-ancient-dna-data

Oldest I could find was
I7278 Czech_BellBeaker: 4333 49 2462-2298 BC, midpoint 2380 BC.

I believe the "4333 49" means 4333 BP (before 1950 AD) plus or minus 49 years.

If so that would mean 2432-2334 BC, mid point 2383 BC. Slightly tighter than the above 2462-2298 BC range.
Which would push back the U152 TMRCA floor to 2334 BC

razyn
02-25-2021, 06:10 PM
I would just mention for anybody who looked at this thread yesterday, maps and data have been considerably edited, and are better now.
I particularly like "And yet another map," in post #1238.

I'll probably edit this, and may (if I can find it) add a link to someplace where I previously cited the fairly recent Klochko modifications of the fairly old Gimbutas map showing ancient routes.* It's worth bearing in mind that the amber trade, and migration of a cattle herding folk, may have followed very different routes. (Contrast, e.g., the Sokal Ridge and the Pripyat Marsh. There are many such examples.) But somebody knew that there were routes, and destinations -- and had seen what lay at either end.

*I think the one I had in mind was post #979, on this very busy thread. But in the interest of thoroughness (and to spare myself the effort of looking it up again), I also ruminated on the topic in posts #16, #1035, #1039, and (as they say in dissertation Prefaces) "the references cited therein." I may be the only person, or one of very few, who cares what I previously said. But I still think it; so I may sometime want to check on how long I've had this tune stuck in my head.
While I'm about it, I'll mention that I started down this rocky path in Sept. 2018 in response to a poll (about the more specific R1b-P312) started by MitchellSince1893; see especially my "Venn diagram of DGH" answer, developed in posts 4, 14, and 36: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15293-Which-of-the-following-choices-is-your-best-guess-for-where-P312-originated&p=483409&viewfull=1#post483409
And even more specific than that, because I've always had the interests of the R1b-DF27 and Subclades haplogroup project at heart, see this, from Oct. 2018: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=505611&viewfull=1#post505611

rms2
02-25-2021, 10:13 PM
Remember that trade routes, including amber trade routes, are not quite the same as migration routes. I wonder about the idea of migration routes into the west that began as far away as the Volga.

One of the routes Gimbutas mentioned was the Dniester-San-Vistula, which to me makes far more sense for R1b-L51 as a migration route than a route that begins on the Volga, heads way to the north, and winds up on the Baltic.

A couple of things: first, the Corded Ware of the Baltic has been all R1a-M417 thus far. I realize that could change. Second, the Baltic itself was a source of amber, as it still is today, but why would anyone but small bands of traders swing way to the north, through forest, swamp, and taiga as a route west?

I know Kristiansen, whom I really respect, mentioned the idea that the steppe people who headed west were primarily warbands of young males, but that cannot be entirely right, because Corded Ware still had 60-80% steppe DNA long after the culture began c. 3000. Steppe women must have come along for the steppe DNA to have remained that high.

So, who was hauling women and children, ox-drawn wagons, livestock, and horses far up into the heavily forested and swampy north country?

I get the impression some of these routes are the products of staring at a map of the region, perhaps with some of the trade routes in mind, without really knowing what the area is like.

When the pioneers settled Tennessee, they didn't swing all the way down from distant New England, New York, or Pennsylvania. They came mainly from nearby North Carolina and Virginia.

Any route from or across the steppe is possible, but personally I think the actual evidence indicates that the steppe people who formed the backbone of Corded Ware probably did not come from an enormous distance all the way across the steppe, and I doubt they made some circuitous trek northward across the taiga to the Baltic first. It seems to me the evidence indicates they came up the Dniester/Prut interfluve into Małopolska, where the oldest Pre-Corded Ware burials are found, those of the CWC-X horizon. There probably was some coming and going by way of the Dnieper across the steppe to Volhynia, as well.

Besides, thus far most of the R1b-L51 in Corded Ware has been found in Małopolska, which looks like the gateway to the west. It would not surprise me if male remains from those Pre-Corded burials in Małopolska, at Hubinek and Średnia, 3000-2900 BC, were R1b-L51, as well.

Could individuals or small groups have come from as far away as the Volga? Sure. But I don't see any evidence of a major migration stream from there, and certainly not one that brought L51 to the west.

But who knows?

dsm
02-25-2021, 10:43 PM
Remember that trade routes, including amber trade routes, are not quite the same as migration routes. I wonder about the idea of migration routes into the west that began as far away as the Volga.

Why ? - if L51 were regular traders with the Baltic they would know this well. Why confuse trade vs migration with L51 ? they clearly IMHO did both at some time

One of the routes Gimbutas mentioned was the Dniester-San-Vistula, which to me makes far more sense for R1b-L51 as a migration route than a route that begins on the Volga, heads way to the north, and winds up on the Baltic.

Yes, one opinion & fair comment. But depending on if L51 at Samara-Kazan were traders - metlaurgists - or Steppes nomads. What we do know without doubt is that R1b-L23-Z2103 + I2 were indeed Steppes nomads. So far there isn't excessive evidence that L51 were Steppes nomads. The Area between Samara & Kazan is Forest Zone not open flat Steppe


A couple of things: first, the Corded Ware of the Baltic has been all R1a-M417 thus far. I realize that could change. Second, the Baltic itself was a source of amber, as it still is today, but why would anyone but small bands of traders swing way to the north, through forest, swamp, and taiga as a route west?

Swamp? - what I see in maps is a navigable waterway along the Volga and joining up with the Divinar River that actually reaches the Baltic at Riga Latvia (vs the Gimbutas drawing suggesting Lithuania at the Poland border). And add to this the FACT that amber from the Baltic shows up regularly in Volosovo graves. It had to be traded by someone.

I know Kristiansen, whom I really respect, mentioned the idea that the steppe people who headed west were primarily warbands of young males, but that cannot be entirely right, because Corded Ware still had 60-80% steppe DNA long after the culture began c. 3000. Steppe women must have come along for the steppe DNA to have remained that high.

So, who was hauling women and children, ox-drawn wagons, livestock, and horses far up into the heavily forested and swampy north country?

Good question ! - but who ? - we know Z2103 + I2 did. But why must L51 have been Steppe nomads ? that is your assumption as there aren't any aBurials (yet) that actually say L51 were Steppes nomads (unless we count the one known Afanasievo burial (which I don't)

I get the impression some of these routes are the products of staring at a map of the region, perhaps with some of the trade routes in mind, without really knowing what the area is like.

So Gimbutas is highly praised when her words agree with your current POV but she clearly is capable of staring too long at maps when her work doesn't agree. I think Gimbutas actually had some idea of the regions involved.

When the pioneers settled Tennessee, they didn't swing all the way down from distant New England, New York, or Pennsylvania. They came mainly from nearby North Carolina and Virginia.

What has American migrations got to do with this ? - seems a very tenuous connection

Any route from or across the steppe is possible, but personally I think the actual evidence indicates that the steppe people who formed the backbone of Corded Ware probably did not come from an enormous distance all the way across the steppe, and I doubt they made some circuitous trek northward across the taiga to the Baltic first. It seems to me the evidence indicates they came up the Dniester/Prut interfluve into Małopolska, where the oldest Pre-Corded Ware burials are found, those of the CWC-X horizon. There probably was some coming and going by way of the Dnieper across the steppe to Volhynia, as well.

Great that we can have various interpretations and thoughts on this as long as we don't confuse greater cordedware R1a peoples with a small R1b group.

Besides, thus far most of the R1b-L51 in Corded Ware has been found in Małopolska, which looks like the gateway to the west. It would not surprise me if male remains from those Pre-Corded burials in Małopolska, at Hubinek and Średnia, 3000-2900 BC, were R1b-L51, as well.

Could individuals or small groups have come from as far away as the Volga? Sure. But I don't see any evidence of a major migration stream from there, and certainly not one that brought L51 to the west.

Again, good that we can each hold different views and share them. Even Marija Gimbutas

But who knows?

Yes, well said !




See italicized comments in the quote area above.

rms2
02-26-2021, 12:21 AM
See italicized comments in the quote area above.

Honestly, that is not a good way to reply, because you've inserted your comments into my post as if I made them.

You should have quoted me, responded below my closed quote box, then quoted me again in a separate box, and then responded.

Now to respond to you, I've got to perform surgery on that post. Hardly worth it.

rms2
02-26-2021, 01:00 AM
See italicized comments in the quote area above.

Here they are one by one.



Why ? - if L51 were regular traders with the Baltic they would know this well. Why confuse trade vs migration with L51 ? they clearly IMHO did both at some time? they clearly IMHO did both at some time

What evidence do you have that the trade routes you outlined were also used as migration routes?

You do understand that individual traders and small groups of traders might be willing and able to traverse areas that would be nearly impassable and certainly inhospitable to larger groups, especially groups with women and children, ox-drawn wagons, horses, and herds of livestock, right?

I have hiked in the woods north of Moscow. I haven't personally experienced northern Russia in the 3rd millennium BC, but if it was anything like it is now, large groups with wagons, etc., did not migrate that way.



Yes, one opinion & fair comment. But depending on if L51 at Samara-Kazan were traders - metlaurgists - or Steppes nomads. What we do know without doubt is that R1b-L23-Z2103 + I2 were indeed Steppes nomads. So far there isn't excessive evidence that L51 were Steppes nomads. The Area between Samara & Kazan is Forest Zone not open flat Steppe

None of the experts I've read characterize any of the early Indo-Europeans as any kind of nomads. They were steppe pastoralists.

Are you arguing that L51 is not of Indo-European, steppe pastoralist origin?

They belonged to some sort of forest forager culture then?

How did they acquire their Yamnaya DNA?



Swamp? - what I see in maps is a navigable waterway along the Volga and joining up with the Divinar River that actually reaches the Baltic at Riga Latvia (vs the Gimbutas drawing suggesting Lithuania at the Poland border). And add to this the FACT that amber from the Baltic shows up regularly in Volosovo graves. It had to be traded by someone.

What is manageable and "navigable" to small bands of traders with canoes or boats is not manageable for large migratory groups with women and children, ox-drawn wagons, horses and livestock. The route from the Volga to the Baltic is swampy and heavily forested.

Are you saying that amber=migration? Small bits of amber in Volosovo graves really means little in determining what route L51 took west. Are you saying Volosovo people migrated west and were involved in the genesis of Corded Ware?

As I understand it, the Volosovo culture was a forager culture of little influence.

Honestly, I cannot see any really compelling reason for your proposed migration route. There's no evidence for it, not that you have adduced, anyway.



Good question ! - but who ? - we know Z2103 + I2 did. But why must L51 have been Steppe nomads ? that is your assumption as there aren't any aBurials (yet) that actually say L51 were Steppes nomads (unless we count the one known Afanasievo burial (which I don't)

We know that Z2103 + I2 went north up the Volga and across the taiga to the Baltic via Yaroslavl? Huh?

Again, no one thinks the early Indo-Europeans were nomads. They were steppe pastoralists who practiced a little mixed agriculture but mostly depended on their herds - and, yes, that included R1b-L51, unless you think they were not Indo-Europeans.

R1b-L51 is popping up in Corded Ware frequently now, with high levels of Yamnaya DNA. Corded Ware was a pastoralist culture derived from the steppe.



So Gimbutas is highly praised when her words agree with your current POV but she clearly is capable of staring too long at maps when her work doesn't agree. I think Gimbutas actually had some idea of the regions involved.

Oh, please. I still praise Gimbutas. She never endorsed your point of view. In 1965 she wrote about routes of trade and transit. She included many such routes, not just one.

I merely said that one of those routes was the Dniester-San-Vistula, and to me that one makes more sense than the one you're proposing, especially since the Dniester-San-Vistula route actually has archaeological and ancient DNA evidence to support it.



What has American migrations got to do with this ? - seems a very tenuous connection

It seems to me use of the words "tenuous connection" is kind of ironic, considering the meandering northerly route you proposed.

Anyway, the point about Tennessee, which should have been easy to understand, is that the people who settled there did not make a long range journey to get there. Usually people move first to places that are relatively close. The Volga is far far from the Baltic.



Great that we can have various interpretations and thoughts on this as long as we don't confuse greater cordedware R1a peoples with a small R1b group.

What are you talking about?

What makes you think that R1a greatly outnumbered R1b-L51 within Corded Ware? If that was the case, how did central and western Europe become so overwhelmingly R1b-L51? How did Beaker, which was pretty obviously a direct offshoot of Single Grave Corded Ware, get to be so overwhelmingly R1b-L51?

And what does your response have to do with what I wrote about the Małopolska results and evidence? We are discussing R1b-L51 in this thread anyway.



Again, good that we can each hold different views and share them. Even Marija Gimbutas

Well, we certainly do hold different views, but I would like for you to persuade me. I've explained more than once in this thread why I think the steppe pastoralist people behind Corded Ware, at least the R1b-L51 cohort, came north up the Prut/Dniester valleys and into Małopolska. I also think in general the hot zone in the Corded Ware origin story was the steppe, forest-steppe, and river valleys from the Dnieper all the way west to the Siret.

Honestly, I don't understand the fondness for migration routes way up north into and across dense, boggy forest, unless someone presents a compelling case for them - and by "compelling" I mean something more than the mere notion that they were somehow "possible" because traders managed to trade amber along them.

I realize some of this post may sound harsh. I don't mean it to sound that way, so you'll have to excuse me. I don't have all the answers; no one on this earth does. But I think the preponderance of the evidence supports my current view, which is subject to change as more evidence comes in.

rms2
02-26-2021, 01:29 AM
BTW, the area between Samara and Kazan is steppe, not forest. The city of Samara itself is right on the Volga and has trees (just like Volgograd), but it is sitting on the steppe.

My wife is from Volgograd, and I spent a lot of time in that area and have even swum in the Volga River.

dsm
02-26-2021, 01:30 AM
RMS2,

Am satisfied the original post was 'offered' with qualifications as another view. It is clearly going to become too convoluted trying to counter the mis-interpretations you are introducing. You IMHO are characteristically dumping on a different perspective to your cherished current views. There is no need to do so.

Let us just leave the original polite post as a map showing a Gimbutas inspired view of connections between the Nth Pontic Steppes and the Baltic. We can each interpret it as we choose.

Cheers D

rms2
02-26-2021, 01:58 AM
RMS2,

Am satisfied the original post was 'offered' with qualifications as another view. It is clearly going to become too convoluted trying to counter the mis-interpretations you are introducing. You IMHO are characteristically dumping on a different perspective to your cherished current views. There is no need to do so.

Let us just leave the original polite post as a map showing a Gimbutas inspired view of connections between the Nth Pontic Steppes and the Baltic. We can each interpret it as we choose.

Cheers D

I decided to edit this post and pare it down to merely say that when one runs out of decent arguments, he sometimes resorts to insults: thus the post above.

rms2
02-26-2021, 03:40 AM
BTW, the area between Samara and Kazan is steppe, not forest. The city of Samara itself is right on the Volga and has trees (just like Volgograd), but it is sitting on the steppe.

My wife is from Volgograd, and I spent a lot of time in that area and have even swum in the Volga River.

BTW, I'm hoping the rumor about R1b-L51 having been found on the Don in the area of Rostov in an Eneolithic steppe culture is correct. The wife and I are planning a trip to Russia in the near future. I would like to see that paper before I go so I can visit the area and maybe even the site itself.

We've got a lot of relatives and friends to visit in Moscow, Ukraine, Volgograd, and Tatarstan, but I would like to make time to go visit that site, if it pans out.

Here's my youngest daughter Anna riding a horse in Tatarstan. The other girl is her friend Dilara. The horse belongs to her.

43549

parasar
02-26-2021, 04:45 AM
Remember that trade routes, including amber trade routes, are not quite the same as migration routes. I wonder about the idea of migration routes into the west that began as far away as the Volga.

One of the routes Gimbutas mentioned was the Dniester-San-Vistula, which to me makes far more sense for R1b-L51 as a migration route than a route that begins on the Volga, heads way to the north, and winds up on the Baltic.

A couple of things: first, the Corded Ware of the Baltic has been all R1a-M417 thus far. I realize that could change. Second, the Baltic itself was a source of amber, as it still is today, but why would anyone but small bands of traders swing way to the north, through forest, swamp, and taiga as a route west?

I know Kristiansen, whom I really respect, mentioned the idea that the steppe people who headed west were primarily warbands of young males, but that cannot be entirely right, because Corded Ware still had 60-80% steppe DNA long after the culture began c. 3000. Steppe women must have come along for the steppe DNA to have remained that high.

So, who was hauling women and children, ox-drawn wagons, livestock, and horses far up into the heavily forested and swampy north country?

I get the impression some of these routes are the products of staring at a map of the region, perhaps with some of the trade routes in mind, without really knowing what the area is like.

When the pioneers settled Tennessee, they didn't swing all the way down from distant New England, New York, or Pennsylvania. They came mainly from nearby North Carolina and Virginia.

Any route from or across the steppe is possible, but personally I think the actual evidence indicates that the steppe people who formed the backbone of Corded Ware probably did not come from an enormous distance all the way across the steppe, and I doubt they made some circuitous trek northward across the taiga to the Baltic first. It seems to me the evidence indicates they came up the Dniester/Prut interfluve into Małopolska, where the oldest Pre-Corded Ware burials are found, those of the CWC-X horizon. There probably was some coming and going by way of the Dnieper across the steppe to Volhynia, as well.

Besides, thus far most of the R1b-L51 in Corded Ware has been found in Małopolska, which looks like the gateway to the west. It would not surprise me if male remains from those Pre-Corded burials in Małopolska, at Hubinek and Średnia, 3000-2900 BC, were R1b-L51, as well.

Could individuals or small groups have come from as far away as the Volga? Sure. But I don't see any evidence of a major migration stream from there, and certainly not one that brought L51 to the west.

But who knows?

The warbands were more like an expeditionary force. cf vratya of northern India. https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/vratya https://www.britannica.com/topic/vratya

Any serious settlement would have been similar in nature to that of the pioneers you mention - trickling over into Tennesee and Kentucky and then onto the farming lands of the midwest.

http://geology.blogs.wm.edu/files/2016/08/CumberlandGapAnnotated.jpg

Michał
02-26-2021, 11:13 AM
I have hiked in the woods north of Moscow. I haven't personally experienced northern Russia in the 3rd millennium BC, but if it was anything like it is now, large groups with wagons, etc., did not migrate that way.

However, this is exactly the place where we find multiple sites of the Fatyanovo culture (the Russian variant of CWC), so your claim that the Corded Ware people could not have migrated through such territories is strongly contradicted by the archaeology.

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/7/4/eabd6535/F1.large.jpg

Similarly, if the CWC people indeed avoided heavily wooded territories with plenty of rivers and/or lakes, then how come they were able to expand from the Middle Dnieper region towards the Upper Dnieper and Desna rivers (in Eastern Belarus and Western Russia). How come they are found in Southern Finland? Also, there is no doubt that CWC was strongly present in the Balltic states, and you have recently posted a map (shown below) that indicates there were only two possible migration routes for the CWC people to reach the Baltic states from the south and they both were through some densely wooded territories with plenty of water obstacles (just like in Southern Finland), including either the so-called Masurian Lake District in NE Poland or the Northern and North-Eastern parts of Belarus (ie. through the commonly used Dnieper-Neman and Dnieper-Daugava trade routes).

https://i.ibb.co/QP36Kb8/Corded-Ware-map.jpg

rms2
02-26-2021, 01:57 PM
Except the Corded Ware people who became Fatyanovo moved from west to east, not east to west. They came from the opposite direction.

Please produce some evidence that the steppe people who formed Corded Ware in the first place, circa 3000 BC, went north up the Volga and then west through the forests of northern Russia to the Baltic.

Are there Pre-Corded burials dated to 3000-2900 BC along that route like the oldest currently-known Pre-Corded/Corded Ware burials in SE Poland, at Hubinek and Średnia?

The fact that people can and eventually did move someplace - from the opposite direction - is no evidence that place was along the original route, nor did I claim movement along that route - east to west, that is - was absolutely impossible. Obviously, it was not impossible, because traders did it. It just wasn't easy, nor was it likely, and the evidence is that the original route was elsewhere.

rms2
02-26-2021, 02:34 PM
Let's admit that people can move through all sorts of rough terrain and that the Corded Ware people did in fact push through rough terrain into forested and boggy central and northern Europe.

So, okay, it's possible.

Lots of things are possible. The questions are which of them - in this case, which original route or routes - was likely, and what does the evidence actually show?

And rough, in some places nearly impassable, terrain is an impediment that makes a route, while not totally impossible, less likely.

I'm fully prepared to believe anything that the evidence actually indicates. I did not just look at a map and pre-select the Dniester/Prut route into Małopolska because I thought it looked cool or looked likely. No, I have come to think that was one of the main routes for the people who became Corded Ware because of what I have read lately: in other words, because of evidence I find compelling.

Dniester/Prut-San-Vistula may not have been the only route; probably it wasn't the only route. We are mainly talking about R1b-L51 here. Perhaps the tribes that were mainly R1a-M417 took a different way.

But if someone wants to convince me or anyone else of a migration route, he needs to produce some actual evidence. The fact that a trade route existed along such-and-such a way is a fine start. Okay, let's see more. Convince me. Don't just tell me it was possible.

What makes that way likely?