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rms2
05-15-2020, 04:42 PM
Hey! There's a Z2103 subforum but no L51 subforum. Why is that? We seem to be the redheaded stepchild of L23 (which is okay, I guess). Anyway, I guess we do have a bunch of downstream sub-fora, so one shouldn't complain.

Anyway, anyone care to discuss R1b-L51 in Corded Ware, which was apparently the primary vehicle of Indo-European language and culture into central and western Europe? Also, it looks like Kurgan Bell Beaker really was just Corded Ware 2.0, and had little or nothing to do with its confusing and erroneous supposed association with what is called early Iberian Bell Beaker.

I've been assembling a lot of notes and quotes lately on Corded Ware and its origins from various authors. Some of them were way ahead of the curve and were spectacularly right, but others were embarrassingly wrong.

Ancient dna has really straightened things out, but we still have a ways to go.

So, how did Corded Ware come into being? Where did the L51 in it come from? BTW, by L51 I mean it and everything downstream of it old enough to be involved. I personally am not that interested in plotting exactly which SNP appeared where and when. Let's just refer to L51. When they find some continental L21, then I'll get all excited.

Meanwhile, go for it. Post your wildest ideas. This is for fun anyway.

rms2
05-15-2020, 05:14 PM
Not too long ago, quite a few scholars thought Corded Ware was merely an outgrowth of TRB which had been Indo-Europeanized through contact with Usatovo and/or Yamnaya. Thus far, however, the y-dna from TRB has been I2a and G2a, not R1a or R1b, and TRB remains have no steppe dna.

As late as 2007, even as august an Indo-European expert as David Anthony thought this way. This is from page 360 of Anthony's book The Horse The Wheel and Language:



If I had to hazard a guess I would say that this was how the Proto-Indo-European dialects that would ultimately form the root of Pre-Germanic first became established in central Europe: they spread up the Dniester from the Usatovo culture through a nested series of patrons and clients, and eventually were spoken in some of the late TRB communities between the Dniester and the Vistula. These late TRB communities later evolved into early Corded Ware communities, and it was the Corded Ware horizon (see below) that provided the medium through which the Pre-Germanic dialects spread over a wider area.


Nope.

Now I'm sure Anthony would agree that was wrong.

Gimbutas thought Corded Ware was a "later phase of the Globular Amphora complex" (from page 393 of her book, The Civilization of the Goddess):



Who were the Corded Pottery people? Do they represent an intrusion of a new Kurgan (i.e., Yamna) people from the east? Or does this period simply represent a later phase of the Globular Amphora complex, pushed to the north and northeast by the influx of the Yamna people? The latter seems likely. Both the Globular Amphora and Corded Pottery complexes contain components of the local TRB substratum and the Pontic steppe element. The TRB component is predominant in the physical type of the Corded Pottery population of Germany and Czechoslovakia, with the exception of some individuals who are considered to be of the steppe type. Analysis of the skeletal material from Poland shows a steppe origin. Elsewhere the bulk of the population were indigenous remnants of Old Europeans.


I like Gimbutas and have a lot of respect for her. She was right about a lot way before most people, but she got Corded Ware wrong. Funny thing is that she was stronger on the steppe origin of Bell Beaker than she was on that of Corded Ware, but she derived Bell Beaker from Yamnaya and Vucedol. Now we know Bell Beaker really was an offshoot of Corded Ware.

rms2
05-15-2020, 05:48 PM
The following is from Bogucki, Peter, and Crabtree, Pam J., editors. Ancient Europe 8000 B.C.–A.D. 1000: Encyclopedia of the Barbarian World. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 2004, the chapter entitled "CONSEQUENCES OF FARMING IN SOUTHERN SCANDINAVIA", by Magdalena S. Midgley:



Although in the past fanciful notions of horse-mounted eastern warriors were evoked to explain the appearance of the Corded Ware culture in Europe, it now seems that a local, if regionally diversified, emergence is a more appropriate working concept. Indeed there is sufficient evidence to show a degree of continuity from the late Funnel Beaker culture to the subsequent Corded Ware culture and to demonstrate that the process of social and economic change, which ultimately led to the emergence of the Corded Ware culture over much of southern Scandinavia, can be perceived within the later Funnel Beaker culture. The settlement and economy of the Corded Ware were rooted in the preceding period, although there are some regional differences. Thus in eastern Denmark and Scania, there is little evidence for change in land use, and on Bornholm and the southern Danish islands, settlement continued more or less uninterrupted on sites previously occupied by the Funnel Beaker culture. Initially at least the extant megalithic tombs in this region offered convenient burial places, since many Corded Ware burials can be identified as late additions.


I'm not trying to badmouth Mrs. Midgley (she has passed away since writing that). I just want to show what apparently a lot of scholars thought not too long ago when immobilist thought reigned supreme.

rms2
05-15-2020, 06:43 PM
More recently, this paper (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/retheorising-mobility-and-the-formation-of-culture-and-language-among-the-corded-ware-culture-in-europe/E35E6057F48118AFAC191BDFBB1EB30E) by Kristiansen et al (I'm the president of the Kristiansen Fan Club) asserts that Corded Ware was an outgrowth of Yamnaya.


We have been able to reconstruct the social processes of cultural integration and hybridisation that followed from (probable) Neolithic women marrying into Yamnaya settlements dominated by males of first-generation migrants. This practice continued over several generations, and the women soon started to produce new pottery versions of existing containers made of organic materials, with some further innovations. The original herding economy of the Yamnaya migrants gradually gave way to new agrarian practices of crop cultivation, which led to the adaptation of new words. The result of this hybridisation process was the formation of a new material culture, the Corded Ware Culture, and of a new dialect, Proto-Germanic (or perhaps more correctly, Pre-Proto-Germanic).

rms2
05-16-2020, 02:35 AM
Okay. I guess no one is interested.

C'est la vie.

jdean
05-16-2020, 09:42 AM
More recently, this paper (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/retheorising-mobility-and-the-formation-of-culture-and-language-among-the-corded-ware-culture-in-europe/E35E6057F48118AFAC191BDFBB1EB30E) by Kristiansen et al (I'm the president of the Kristiansen Fan Club) asserts that Corded Ware was an outgrowth of Yamnaya.

I re-read that paper just the other day and then came across a rather interesting thesis on CW language which referenced Kristiansen's paper.

The shared lexicon of Baltic, Slavic and Germanic (https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/handle/1887/67436)

anglesqueville
05-16-2020, 09:50 AM
Okay. I guess no one is interested.

C'est la vie.

No one? You're wrong on his point. This is a major (and for some of us THE ...) major topic. On my part, I only feel the necessity to make my thoughts in order before intervening. Hopefully, you'll keep on posting your notes and quotations, sure they will help me.

rms2
05-16-2020, 03:32 PM
I think we've all learned that, like Yamnaya, Corded Ware is an archaeological horizon rather than a single culture, even though we refer to it as the Corded Ware culture or CWC, for short. Mallory says there are over twenty Corded Ware variants.

From page 244 of his book, In Search of the Indo-Europeans: Language, Archaeology and Myth:



Beginning slightly later [than 3500 BC] is the Corded Ware horizon, with its over twenty variants. These stretch from the Netherlands on the west to the upper Volga and middle Dnieper on the east, and are found as far north as Scandinavia and as far south as Switzerland.


Mallory doesn't provide a list of the variants, however.

Czebreszuk, in his article, "Corded Ware from East to West", pages 467-475 of the book, Ancient Europe 8000 B.C.–A.D. 1000: Encyclopedia of the Barbarian World, does provide a list of what he says are "[t]he Corded Ware variants most solidly grounded in literature" (p. 469). In it he includes Złota, however, which I think now is believed to have actually been a GAC subgroup.

Excluding Złota, here is Czebreszuk's list (which doesn't come up to Mallory's "over twenty"):

1. Single Grave Culture

2. Protruding Foot Beaker Culture

3. Corded Ware of the Alpine Pile Dwellings

4. Central German Corded Ware Culture

5. Bohemian-Moravian Corded Ware

6. Małopolska Corded Ware

7. Battle-Axe Culture

8. Rzucewo Culture (also known as the Bay Coast culture and the East Baltic Coastal culture or
Haffküstenkultur)

9. Middle Dnieper Culture

10. Fatianovo Culture (or Fatyanovo)

I numbered them, not in order of importance, but just to make keeping a count easier.

rms2
05-16-2020, 04:02 PM
Personally, I would add the following:

11. Kurgan Bell Beaker culture

Were it not for the confusion over the Spanish Model of Beaker origins, it seems to me Beaker would simply be regarded as the most successful of the CW variants.

A321son
05-16-2020, 07:13 PM
Okay. I guess no one is interested.

C'est la vie.

I am actually quite interested, but with all the recent ancient dna finds, along with the rumored ones, it is hard to take a position now. Superficially, it looks like R-L51 originated about the Moravian Gate. The oldest Ancient DNA coincides with the ends of the Cucuteni-Trypillia and Globular Amphora cultures. Until it collapsed, the large cities of the Cucuteni-Trypillia culture between the S. Bug and Dnieper would have been barriers to any large steppe migration towards the mouth of the Danube. And certainly the large forests of central Poland would not have been appealing to a steppe pastoralist / metal worker going through central Poland. The following deforestation figure (which I annotated with red migration arrows) I found particularly pertinent (see N. Roberts et al (2018) "Europe’s lost forests: a pollen-based synthesis for the last 11,000 years", https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-18646-7).

37632

rms2
05-17-2020, 12:02 AM
. . . Superficially, it looks like R-L51 originated about the Moravian Gate . . .

What makes you say that? That's pretty far west, although you did qualify it with the adverb superficially.

L52 (P310), one step downstream of L51, has been found in an Afanasievo sample from what is now Mongolia dated to 3316-2918 BC.

YFull's estimate of the tmrca of L51 takes us back to about 3750 BC. That's too early for any steppe pastoralists as far west as the Moravian Gate.

A321son
05-17-2020, 01:03 PM
Superficially, because the three oldest samples we do have (I4890; I4178; & I5022) are about the Moravian Gate. I am not aware of any R-L51 samples further east of the area about the Moravian Gate. Until we get one, your downstream I6222 sample could be explained as a descendant who went back to the R-L23 homeland (sort of a Biblical sheep raising Jacob going back to his ancestral lands to find a wife from among his relatives). However, as I stated, the rumored upcoming R-L51 samples keeps me from holding any solid positions other than the Moravian Gate area was key to further R-L51 expansion in Europe. The forests of central Poland would seem to negate a direct northern route for most of these migrants.

rms2
05-17-2020, 02:03 PM
Superficially, because the three oldest samples we do have (I4890; I4178; & I5022) are about the Moravian Gate.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but those are all Beaker samples dated to 2500-2000 BC, and not the oldest we have. I4890 is R1b-L151 (a couple of steps downstream of L51), and the other two, as far as I know, have only been resolved as far as M269.



I am not aware of any R-L51 samples further east of the area about the Moravian Gate. Until we get one, your downstream I6222 sample could be explained as a descendant who went back to the R-L23 homeland (sort of a Biblical sheep raising Jacob going back to his ancestral lands to find a wife from among his relatives).

That downstream example is one step further upstream than I4890 that you cited above, and a lot older, too.



However, as I stated, the rumored upcoming R-L51 samples keeps me from holding any solid positions other than the Moravian Gate area was key to further R-L51 expansion in Europe. The forests of central Poland would seem to negate a direct northern route for most of these migrants.

A couple of things. First the Moravian Gate is too far west and way too specific.

Second, as I mentioned before, YFull's estimate of the tmrca of L51 takes us back to about 3750 BC. At that time, Neolithic farmers of the Lengyel culture were living in what is now the eastern Czech Republic. Not too far away were Neolithic farmers of the Funnel Beaker culture (TRB ). Later, farmers of the Globular Amphora culture would move into that region before being supplanted by the people who actually first introduced R1b-L51 to Europe west of the steppe, the men of the Corded Ware horizon.

So, unless you are arguing that L51 is of Neolithic farmer origin, and, more specifically, of Lengyel or maybe TRB origin, it did not arise anywhere near the Moravian Gate.

When L51 first appears in the ancient dna record, it does so among Indo-Europeans who were carriers of a lot of steppe dna. That points to an origin much farther east than the Moravian Gate.

rms2
05-17-2020, 02:47 PM
This is from the chapter entitled, "LATE NEOLITHIC/COPPER AGE CENTRAL EUROPE", by Sarunas Milisauskas, in the book, Ancient Europe 8000 B.C.–A.D. 1000: Encyclopedia of the Barbarian World, page 375:



Since cultural traits such as burial mounds, cord-ornamented pottery, and battle-axes occur in both the Corded Ware and the Pit Grave (Yamnaya) cultures, some archaeologists believe that the Corded Ware peoples were immigrant descendants from Pit Grave populations in southern Russia and Ukraine.

But on page 246 of In Search of the Indo-Europeans, Mallory says this:



Although the Yamnaya culture may have begun earlier than the Corded Ware, there is no real case for an expansion of Yamnaya invaders across the North European plain, producing the Corded Ware horizon. Intrusive steppe burials as we previously encountered in Southeast Europe are generally absent from the Corded Ware region, and on what little anthropological data we possess, there is no reason whatsoever to associate the Corded Ware populations, themselves quite heterogeneous, with the physical type which we encounter on the Pontic-Caspian steppe. All of this indicates that any attempt to relate the two territories takes a different form from that which we employed in the Balkans.

One page earlier, Mallory wrote this, which I think is actually a good follow up to what I quoted above:



It is also obvious, then, that establishing the correct relationship between the Corded Ware and Pontic-Caspian regions is essential to the entire problem of determining the earlier territorial boundaries of the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

Keep this, from page 110 of David Reich's book, Who We Are and How We Got Here, in mind when considering this issue, however:



But the genetics showed that the connection between the Corded Ware culture and the Yamnaya culture reflected major movements of people. The makers of the Corded Ware culture were, at least in a genetic sense, a westward extension of Yamnaya.

And this from the next page:



The association between steppe genetic ancestry and people assigned to the Corded Ware archaeological culture through graves and artifacts is not simply a hypothesis. It is now a proven fact.

A321son
05-17-2020, 06:25 PM
I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but those are all Beaker samples dated to 2500-2000 BC, and not the oldest we have. I4890 is R1b-L151 (a couple of steps downstream of L51), and the other two, as far as I know, have only been resolved as far as M269.


Excuse any potential ignorance on my part, but I was under the understanding that I4890; I4178; & I5022 were all R-51 as per the useful reference table of Ancient DNA found at https://indo-european.eu/all-ancient-dna.pdf.

razyn
05-17-2020, 06:41 PM
Okay. I guess no one is interested.

C'est la vie.

I'm interested, and will contribute, but have been (and continue to be) busy on an unrelated, time-consuming task that has a short deadline. However, in the spirit of team play, I'll quote a guy who hasn't posted much yet (and not on this thread at all), but probably knows the current literature in Russian better than most of us do.


I said it presumably, in my opinion. Of course, not directly from the SS, after all, more than 1000 years passed between the end of the SS and the emergence of the first proto CWC. But I think that either the entire subclades of L51, or some of its subclades, which later became P312, passed into Europe least mixed with the forest population. For example, it is obvious that the R1a-M417 went to Europe through the forest, and about the Z94 I am not sure that they were in Europe at all. As for L51, it is obvious that the group found in the South-East of Poland went to Europe almost without entering the forest. Where it came from is the question. Apparently from the North or North-West of Ukraine, from some territories that were in contact with post-Trypillian cultures and with the GAC. If it was the only route of migration of L51 in Europe? Davidski thinks not. He believes that this route is not only not the only one, but also not the main one, and moreover, it is a dead end. He believes that the main route was a more Northern one, through the forest zone. It's possible, but there's no proof yet. The options here can be very different. Davidski's point of view is this one option. The route from Ukraine to the South of Poland is the second option. There are several routes available. Those groups that became P312 went through the South of Poland, and those that became U106 went North through the forest zone. There may be more complex options.

Although I'm a big fan of river and maritime travel options, I think we could learn something about these migration issues from the American frontier experience -- which happened in a literate culture with printing presses. So we know, in a lot more detail, what went on. Guys on horses, with herds of ruminants to manage, tended to travel routes on which the migratory herds (in our case, often buffalo) had previously gone. Because there had to be ruminant food, that way; also they didn't want their animals breaking their legs, and buffalo traces had packed the soil very well.

But another advantage was that the buffalo (elephants, reindeer, moose, whatever) had already found the best places to cross streams. If they didn't have to (e.g. to get through a mountain pass), they didn't follow the streams; they followed ridge lines, descended to cross a stream, and went back to a ridge whenever they could find one leading in the direction they needed to go, seasonally. Aboriginal game hunters knew that, of course, and for millennia had followed the same trails as their food supply. Likewise, early American explorers (from Europe, riding horses) followed the buffalo traces. So did the much later cattle drives, west of the Mississippi. Some of the major traces and trails are in our National Park system.

Dairy pastoralists and river boatmen don't have the same priorities, or options. We need to work more on the "interfluvial zones." They may not be rich with kurgan burials, or with the rarer permanent settlement sites. But, for example, some of the newly available ancient DNA from SE Poland came from cemeteries on the Sokal ridge that intersects (does not follow) the Vistula. The Sakhtysh IIa cemetery complex is on a ridge. And so on.

rms2
05-17-2020, 08:51 PM
Excuse any potential ignorance on my part, but I was under the understanding that I4890; I4178; & I5022 were all R-51 as per the useful reference table of Ancient DNA found at https://indo-european.eu/all-ancient-dna.pdf.

Olalde et al lists I4890 as R-L151 and I4178 and I5022 as derived for SNPs on the M269 level. If someone has looked further and found I4178 and I5022 as derived for L51, great.

Honestly, given the fact that those are all Beaker samples, and given their relatively late date and the locations where they were found, all three of them were probably really P312+.

But suppose for a moment all three really were derived merely for L51 and nothing more, as unlikely as that seems. The rest of what I wrote still applies. The Moravian Gate is too far west, way too specific, and was occupied by Neolithic farmers of Old Europe at time the mrca of L51 was born.

alan
05-17-2020, 08:53 PM
I somehow missed this thread till now. My view now with the latest data is the story of L51 and especially L151 is subordinate to the equally widely debated issue of whatever the transformation was that allowed CW to develop from a Yamnaya type population. Now we know that some L52 was in Afansievo c. 3200BC and some L151 was in Czech CW fairly early c. 2750BC, we have samples from both the steppe and 'old Europe' sides of the mysterious Yamnaya-like to CW transformation. In both cases its a minority lineage which may be why its taken a while to find it.

The gaps in our knowledge of the both the CW genesis and L51's story are probably simply down to insufficient and geographically patchy sampling. The more i've looked into this, the more I am convinced that later Yamanaya (say 3000-2800BC) in the forest steppe areas of the middle Dniester (and perhaps the Bug and Seret etc) being unsampled is the main problem as those areas are almost certainly crucial to L51 and possibly CW as a whole.

The appearance of L51 in late CW Poland as well as earlier L151 in Czech indicates to me that a reservoir of L51 was located on the Dniester for a long period. I reckon that you could interpret the (admittedly sparse) ancient DNA evidence as indicating a couple of intrusions of L51 into Poland and the north flanks of the Carpathians further west. One maybe c. 2800BC and another c. 2500BC. Both likely using the Dniester route into Poland.

Thats not to say I think L51 originated in the Dniester. I suspect it arrived there c. 3000BC with the forest steppe variety of Yamnaya and previously was on rivers further east. My guess is it originated from L23 in the middle Volga/Samara zone and could have either been connected to (and perhaps trickled into) the Don and Dnieper by the Stredny Stog metal trading network or it might have moved west along the forest steppe belt with Yamnaya, finding an area free of the domination of Z2103 to expand on the middle Dniester. I think there is a pattern you see again and again that the dramatic expansion of each steppe y-lineage in ancient DNA coincides with geographical expansion. Its like only one clan got the royal burial treatment and the other clans below them only got that when they found their own lands to colonise. Hence the kurgans are probably misleading because they might only show a royal dynasty with the other lineages essentially remained invisible despite being present. Until of course they split off and established their own territories and networks where they were top of the pile.

rms2
05-17-2020, 09:04 PM
I'm interested, and will contribute, but have been (and continue to be) busy on an unrelated, time-consuming task that has a short deadline. However, in the spirit of team play, I'll quote a guy who hasn't posted much yet (and not on this thread at all), but probably knows the current literature in Russian better than most of us do . . .

The trouble with what Vladimir wrote, IMHO, is that he seems to be separating L51 CW out from R1a-M417 CW and making the L51 stuff more farmer shifted because he thinks it had a lot to do with Cucuteni-Tripolye and GAC. Maybe he still has Beaker in mind, because Beaker, being a little later in origin than CW, had more farmer ancestry, since it had more time to mix with the farmer population of Old Europe.

But the R1b-L51 Corded Ware stuff is, as I understand it, straight-up Corded Ware, around 75-80% steppe dna, and not any more farmer-ish than the rest of Corded Ware. So, thus far, Corded Ware is Corded Ware is Corded Ware. The L51 CW samples plot with R1a-M417 CW samples. There is no reason to think they spent any more time rubbing elbows with CT or GAC than any other CW guys did.

alan
05-17-2020, 09:12 PM
Olalde et al lists I4890 as R-L151 and I4178 and I5022 as derived for SNPs on the M269 level. If someone has looked further and found I4178 and I5022 as derived for L51, great.

Honestly, given the fact that those are all Beaker samples, and given their relatively late date and the locations where they were found, all three of them were probably really P312+.

But suppose for a moment all three really were derived merely for L51 and nothing more, as unlikely as that seems. The rest of what I wrote still applies. The Moravian Gate is too far west, way too specific, and was occupied by Neolithic farmers of Old Europe at time the mrca of L51 was born.

I think, given the MRCA date is only of living L51, the formation date c. 4100BC may more important in terms of ancient times and it appears to me yfulls dates are probably 10% or so too young so L51 may have come into being something like 4500BC. That is 800 years old than Volosovo so it cannot have originated in that culture. Volosovo seems likely to be be a dead end subset of L51 relating to a group of Samara type hunter-fishers who headed upstream on the Volga. They were probably pure EHGs although as Volosovo dates only from 3700BC, it isnt impossible that they had been slightly touched by the shifts towards a Yamnaya-like signal which had apparently (according to Davidski) been going on since Sredny Stog times. But I think they are an early dead end branch off and not ancestral to the L51 that became Yamnaya-like and in all probability was in Yamnaya.

L51 ancestral to L151 appears likely to be a minor lineage in Yamnaya to me but I wouldnt rule out it being entangled in Stedny Stog as its networking reached the Volga. Part of L51 clearly had a yamnaya like autosomal signal and a near Yamnaya-clone cultural identity already in 3200BC judging by afansievo and its extremely likely that L151 did too judging by its autosomal form in CW by c. 2800BC and later in bell beaker.

alan
05-17-2020, 09:23 PM
The trouble with what Vladimir wrote, IMHO, is that he seems to be separating L51 CW out from R1a-M417 CW and making the L51 stuff more farmer shifted because he thinks it had a lot to do with Cucuteni-Tripolye and GAC. Maybe he still has Beaker in mind, because Beaker, being a little later in origin than CW, had more farmer ancestry, since it had more time to mix with the farmer population of Old Europe.

But the R1b-L51 Corded Ware stuff is, as I understand it, straight-up Corded Ware, around 75-80% steppe dna, and not any more farmer-ish than the rest of Corded Ware. So, thus far, Corded Ware is Corded Ware is Corded Ware. The L51 CW samples plot with R1a-M417 CW samples. There is no reason to think they spent any more time rubbing elbows with CT or GAC than any other CW guys did.

Yeah the extra GAC etc in bell beaker seems to be to do with chronology not origin. Most CW also was essentially beaker-like (extra GAC etc) by 2500BC. That includes Fatyanovo which was also apparently beaker-like, probably because it dates only from 2700BC, 200 years later than early CW. From what I understand the early CW Czech P312 guy is a normal earlyish corded ware person.

A321son
05-17-2020, 10:49 PM
I think, given the MRCA date is only of living L51, the formation date c. 4100BC may more important in terms of ancient times and it appears to me yfulls dates are probably 10% or so too young so L51 may have come into being something like 4500BC. That is 800 years old than Volosovo so it cannot have originated in that culture. Volosovo seems likely to be be a dead end subset of L51 relating to a group of Samara type hunter-fishers who headed upstream on the Volga. They were probably pure EHGs although as Volosovo dates only from 3700BC, it isnt impossible that they had been slightly touched by the shifts towards a Yamnaya-like signal which had apparently (according to Davidski) been going on since Sredny Stog times. But I think they are an early dead end branch off and not ancestral to the L51 that became Yamnaya-like and in all probability was in Yamnaya.

L51 ancestral to L151 appears likely to be a minor lineage in Yamnaya to me but I wouldnt rule out it being entangled in Stedny Stog as its networking reached the Volga. Part of L51 clearly had a yamnaya like autosomal signal and a near Yamnaya-clone cultural identity already in 3200BC judging by afansievo and its extremely likely that L151 did too judging by its autosomal form in CW by c. 2800BC and later in bell beaker.

Age estimates point to the key problem with DNA being used to determine origins. With a 1000 year gap between a c4500BC origin estimate and our earliest known R-L51 sample (I622) we are basically getting into a similar argument of modern dna can't predict origins (with modern being from the frame of reference of us sitting back in 3000 BC). So can we really use L51 age estimates? It seems that we have to go more by the ages of the samples 'in situ.'

rms2
05-17-2020, 11:27 PM
I think, given the MRCA date is only of living L51, the formation date c. 4100BC may more important in terms of ancient times and it appears to me yfulls dates are probably 10% or so too young so L51 may have come into being something like 4500BC . . .

You may be right, but I went with YFull's tmrca because it seems safer, based as it is on actual NGS test results. We have a baseline for L52 (one step downstream of L51), a terminus ante quem of 3316-2918 calBC from the rc dating of that Afanasievo sample, I6222.

L51 has to be older than that, probably a good deal older.

ArmandoR1b
05-18-2020, 05:17 AM
Excuse any potential ignorance on my part, but I was under the understanding that I4890; I4178; & I5022 were all R-51 as per the useful reference table of Ancient DNA found at https://indo-european.eu/all-ancient-dna.pdf.

I analyze Y-DNA and I can assure you of the following -

I4890 is derived for R-L151 and has no-calls for phylogenetic equivalents of R-L151 and for P312 and for subclades of P312.

I5022 has no-calls for L23, L51, L52, L151, DF27, Z195, L21, U152.

You should delete that PDF that you uploaded and never refer to it again.

It is also extremely important to look for no-calls so that it is understood that what doesn't have a result isn't known. Since those specimens have been 14C dated to 2500–2000 BCE there is an extremely high likelihood that if they had a result for phylogenetic equivalents of R-L151 they both would have been derived for all of them and possibly even derived for P312.

Generalissimo
05-18-2020, 08:26 AM
Excuse any potential ignorance on my part, but I was under the understanding that I4890; I4178; & I5022 were all R-51 as per the useful reference table of Ancient DNA found at https://indo-european.eu/all-ancient-dna.pdf.

This table can't be very useful, since it was created by Carlos.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/08/indo-european-crackpottery.html

Coldmountains
05-18-2020, 01:54 PM
The trouble with what Vladimir wrote, IMHO, is that he seems to be separating L51 CW out from R1a-M417 CW and making the L51 stuff more farmer shifted because he thinks it had a lot to do with Cucuteni-Tripolye and GAC. Maybe he still has Beaker in mind, because Beaker, being a little later in origin than CW, had more farmer ancestry, since it had more time to mix with the farmer population of Old Europe.

But the R1b-L51 Corded Ware stuff is, as I understand it, straight-up Corded Ware, around 75-80% steppe dna, and not any more farmer-ish than the rest of Corded Ware. So, thus far, Corded Ware is Corded Ware is Corded Ware. The L51 CW samples plot with R1a-M417 CW samples. There is no reason to think they spent any more time rubbing elbows with CT or GAC than any other CW guys did.

We should give up the idea that their was some kind of ancient ethnic distinction between R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 groups in earliest steppe cultures. To a large extent the domination of R1b or R1a clades in later PIE cultures are the result of random founder effects and we will probably see "West Euro" L51 with "Asian"Z93 in eastern Corded Ware and L51 and Z282 in Central Corded Ware (Poland, Ukraine, Czechia)

rms2
05-18-2020, 04:49 PM
We should give up the idea that their was some kind of ancient ethnic distinction between R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 groups in earliest steppe cultures. To a large extent the domination of R1b or R1a clades in later PIE cultures are the result of random founder effects and we will probably see "West Euro" L51 with "Asian"Z93 in eastern Corded Ware and L51 and Z282 in Central Corded Ware (Poland, Ukraine, Czechia)

That was well said. Couldn't agree more.

rms2
05-18-2020, 05:41 PM
This morning the following article from 2015 popped up in what I get from Academia.edu: Frinculeasa, Alin; Preda, Bianca; Heyd, Volker. "Pit Graves, Yamnaya and Kurgans along the Lower Danube", in Praehistorische Zeitschrift; 2015; 90 (1-2): 45-113.

I remember reading it when it first came out, but I had forgotten a lot of the details. What I found most interesting, aside from the little bit about torques appearing in Yamnaya and Corded Ware graves, is that the authors divide the kurgan-type burials in the Lower Danube region that they were able to examine into two distinct groups: the first group dating to before c. 3050/3000 cal BC and "probably covering the whole last third of the IVth millennium BC" (p. 46), and the second group dating to "firstly from c. 3050/3000 to 2880 cal BC and then from c.2880 to 2580 cal BC" (p. 46).

There are some interesting contrasts between the two groups. The older group consisted mostly of crouched-on-the-side burials (like CW and Beaker) under kurgans, without a lot of pottery but, when present, of local type. There was no particular prevailing burial orientation, and no detectable sexual dimorphism in burial orientation. Grave goods were pretty sparse, and there was little ochre used.

There were not a lot of grave goods in the second group either, but there was a change in the type of pottery (also from page 46):



Pottery is again rare; but when vessels are given they often represent cord-decorated beakers, resembling very much the typical Corded Ware beakers of Central and Northern Europe.


And, from page 67:



Amazingly, these cord-decorated beakers resemble very much the typical Corded Ware beakers of Central and Northern Europe. In fact, some of them are absolutely interchangeable, while both occupation areas always maintain a distance of at least several hundreds of kilometres between them¹³⁷.


Surprisingly, however, as CW-looking beakers begin to appear in these kurgans, the bodies in them, particularly the male bodies, tend to be placed not on their sides but on their backs, with flexed legs that usually fell to the right or left after burial or that were placed in the "frog" or "rhomb" position, and oriented with heads to the west.

So, when the pottery was going Corded Ware-like, the bodily orientation was going classic Yamnaya, except for the fact that they were oriented west-east, which was also the typical (but not universal) Corded Ware orientation (at least for males). Still no real distinction in orientation between males and females, however, unlike Corded Ware and Beaker.

Notice in that last quote above what it says about the no-man's-land between Corded Ware and Yamnaya:



. . . both occupation areas always maintain a distance of at least several hundreds of kilometres between them¹³⁷.


In that last period of the second group, however, in what I think probably actually constitutes a third period, crouched-on-the-side burials begin to re-appear. They are not, as I recall, the primary, center-of-the-kurgan burial but, rather, secondary burials inserted into the mound.

Thought I would throw all that into the mix. What I think is particularly interesting is the space of several hundred kilometers that seems to have been maintained between Yamnaya and Corded Ware. Who knows what might be uncovered in the future, but it looks like the two groups avoided conflict with one another, unlike the apparent women-stealing and wipe-outs Corded Ware perpetrated against GAC.

Just a thought: Maybe Corded Ware herders and Yamnaya herders still spoke mutually intelligible IE dialects at this point and recognized some sort of kinship between them?

razyn
05-18-2020, 05:42 PM
That was well said. Couldn't agree more.

I also agree, but could agree more. If, for example, Coldmountains had omitted the word "random." Founder effects tend to be caused, by something. If it was a few thousand years ago, we just tend not to know what. We get hints now and then, such as evidence of plague or burnt city walls. But there are lots of non-random causes available.

It is overly simplistic, but not unusual, to think that extra-domestic occupations would tend to be learned patrilineally. So a male lineage that followed smithing might have more of a founder effect in a region with metal ores. Families of watermen would not flourish in deserts. Cowboys inhabited grasslands. That sort of thing. Over a long time in a given place, there would be differentiated founder effects in many male lines.

rms2
05-18-2020, 06:11 PM
I think by "random" he meant "various", i.e., they weren't all the product of the same cause, not that they were complete and utter accidents (although maybe sometimes they were).

Coldmountains
05-18-2020, 06:17 PM
I also agree, but could agree more. If, for example, Coldmountains had omitted the word "random." Founder effects tend to be caused, by something. If it was a few thousand years ago, we just tend not to know what. We get hints now and then, such as evidence of plague or burnt city walls. But there are lots of non-random causes available.

It is overly simplistic, but not unusual, to think that extra-domestic occupations would tend to be learned patrilineally. So a male lineage that followed smithing might have more of a founder effect in a region with metal ores. Families of watermen would not flourish in deserts. Cowboys inhabited grasslands. That sort of thing. Over a long time in a given place, there would be differentiated founder effects in many male lines.

well technically nothing is "random" but i used the term to say that the survival or "success" of a R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 lineages in a region and period was not linked to "traits" of the macro-haplogroup itself and a very complex phenomenon, which had many factors (access to ressources, climate, resistance to diseases, access to trade routes/trade goods, intertribal/tribal war, ability to form bigger tribal alliances, ability to adopt new technologies,...). Sometimes they favoured some R1a-M417 group and sometimes some R1b-M269.

It were not always the most numerous, richest or most prestigious lineages, which survived or had long lasting founder effects. We see this with R1a in early Corded Ware, which was before Corded Ware much less frequent in Steppe groups and than again drops in frequency in the late Corded Ware/early Beaker period.

parasar
05-18-2020, 06:45 PM
More recently, this paper (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/retheorising-mobility-and-the-formation-of-culture-and-language-among-the-corded-ware-culture-in-europe/E35E6057F48118AFAC191BDFBB1EB30E) by Kristiansen et al (I'm the president of the Kristiansen Fan Club) asserts that Corded Ware was an outgrowth of Yamnaya.

Kristiansen brings in WHG into the mix only in proto-Germanic stage/Corded Ware.

https://static.cambridge.org/content/id/urn%3Acambridge.org%3Aid%3Aarticle%3AS0003598X1700 0175/resource/name/S0003598X17000175_figab.jpeg?pub-status=live
"The result of this hybridisation process was the formation of a new material culture, the Corded Ware Culture, and of a new dialect, Proto-Germanic."

rms2
05-18-2020, 06:50 PM
Kristiansen brings in WHG into the mix only in proto-Germanic stage/Corded Ware.

https://static.cambridge.org/content/id/urn%3Acambridge.org%3Aid%3Aarticle%3AS0003598X1700 0175/resource/name/S0003598X17000175_figab.jpeg?pub-status=live
"The result of this hybridisation process was the formation of a new material culture, the Corded Ware Culture, and of a new dialect, Proto-Germanic."

Yeah. That struck me as a little late. I think we know now there was a resurgence of WHG as the Neolithic progressed, which is no doubt reflected in the amount of y-dna I2a in Neolithic sites.

It seems to me the root of the non-IE substrate in early Germanic is to be found in the northern varieties of TRB.

rms2
05-18-2020, 07:12 PM
I know there is a kind of ebb and flow to these Anthrogenica threads that results in some posts receiving little to no attention - or maybe sometimes things that are interesting or cool to me just don't strike everybody else the same way.

Anyway, did anyone catch what I posted about the no-man's-land of several hundred kilometers maintained between Yamnaya and Corded Ware?

The authors of the article, "Pit Graves, Yamnaya and Kurgans along the Lower Danube", Frinculeasa, Preda, and Heyd, mention it on page 67:



Amazingly, these cord-decorated beakers resemble very much the typical Corded Ware beakers of Central and Northern Europe. In fact, some of them are absolutely interchangeable, while both occupation areas always maintain a distance of at least several hundreds of kilometres between them¹³⁷.

As I mentioned in that earlier post, it looks like the two groups tried to avoid conflict with one another, in contrast to the women-stealing and wipe-outs CW was perpetrating against GAC.

Care to comment?

Were CW and Yamnaya herders still speaking mutually-intelligible IE dialects at that time (late 4th millennium - early 3rd millennium BC) and recognized each other as kin?

rms2
05-18-2020, 11:55 PM
So, does anyone want to venture a guess on the genesis of Corded Ware?

I have no clue, except to say it must have developed from one or more of the steppe Eneolithic groups that contributed to the development of Yamnaya.

Coldmountains
05-19-2020, 08:28 AM
Kristiansen brings in WHG into the mix only in proto-Germanic stage/Corded Ware.

https://static.cambridge.org/content/id/urn%3Acambridge.org%3Aid%3Aarticle%3AS0003598X1700 0175/resource/name/S0003598X17000175_figab.jpeg?pub-status=live
"The result of this hybridisation process was the formation of a new material culture, the Corded Ware Culture, and of a new dialect, Proto-Germanic."

The theory of the (big) Pre-Germanic substrate is disputed afaik. Kristiansen is making too many unprovable assumptions here. We don't and probably never will know what kind of language was spoken in North Europe prior to CWC.

Alain
05-19-2020, 09:39 AM
The Germanic language can be divided in many ways between Italo-Celtic and Baltic Slavic
see, it can be descendants from a mixture of bell cups and cord ceramics
originated and from the example of the Aunjetitz culture (approx. 2300-1550 BC)
emerged from the two cultures with the local population

Alain
05-19-2020, 09:54 AM
The Germanic language can be divided in many ways between Italo-Celtic and Baltic Slavic
see, it can be descendants from a mixture of bell beakers
and corded ware
originated and from the example of the Unetice culture (Aunjetitzer culture) (approx. 2300-1550 BC)
emerged from the two cultures with the local population

Sorry again

etrusco
05-19-2020, 10:14 AM
@all

If an Y sample is labelled as R1b1a2 what is exactly. I'm not expert in nomenclature and I realized there has been many changes in this regard I would like to know precisely what is since this is an R1b thread

R1b1a2

rms2
05-19-2020, 12:29 PM
@all

If an Y sample is labelled as R1b1a2 what is exactly. I'm not expert in nomenclature and I realized there has been many changes in this regard I would like to know precisely what is since this is an R1b thread

R1b1a2

A few years ago that was the longhand for M269. Now I think that is the longhand for V88, but I could be wrong. Whenever one of these papers uses the longhand, I have to run to ISOGG or fiddle around with Google to figure out what the hell they're talking about.

I wish they would just use the major haplogroup handle and the terminal SNP, like this: R1b-M269.

So much easier to understand.

jdean
05-19-2020, 12:36 PM
A few years ago that was the longhand for M269. Now I think that is the longhand for V88, but I could be wrong. Whenever one of these papers uses the longhand, I have to run to ISOGG or fiddle around with Google to figure out what the hell they're talking about.

I wish they would just use the major haplogroup handle and the terminal SNP, like this: R1b-M269.

So much easier to understand.

There's also the issue of ISOGG's tree changing dramatically during a year but the only available version is how it stood at the end, I've seen a few papers saying they are using ISOGG version such and such which was downloaded at point x in time but that version has subsequently been sucked into the ether.

rms2
05-19-2020, 12:37 PM
The theory of the (big) Pre-Germanic substrate is disputed afaik. Kristiansen is making too many unprovable assumptions here. We don't and probably never will know what kind of language was spoken in North Europe prior to CWC.

I think he was on solid ground talking about Corded Ware. He should have stuck with that and the idea that Corded Ware may have been responsible for the beginnings of the northern European IE languages. Venturing off into what specifically went into the making of Germanic was like leaving the pavement for a walk in the swamp.

rms2
05-19-2020, 12:41 PM
There's also the issue of ISOGG's tree changing dramatically during a year but the only available version is how it stood at the end, I've seen a few papers saying they are using ISOGG version such and such which was downloaded at point x in time but that version has subsequently been sucked into the ether.

True. Lately, when a new paper comes out, I find half of the excitement sucked out of it when I spot those long y-haplogroup monikers and realize how much time I'm about to spend trying to decipher them.

jdean
05-19-2020, 01:13 PM
True. Lately, when a new paper comes out, I find half of the excitement sucked out of it when I spot those long y-haplogroup monikers and realize how much time I'm about to spend trying to decipher them.

: ))))))

alan
05-19-2020, 02:52 PM
Certain SEEMS that the place L23 probably occurred or certainly had an early home was the Volga. So you need to explain how L23 derivative spread right across the steppes and eventually into Old Europe. The spread of Z2103 west from the Volga with Yamnaya superficially does seem likely to explain its spread. I strongly suspect from what little info there is that this is also true of L51. The only alternative I can see is the Stredny Stog network could have allowed it to spread. The archaeologists looking at the origins of early Stredny Stog do say that the burial rite seems to come from the east i.e. towards the Volga although the culture itself was mainly established on the Dnieper-Don area. Its not impossible there is a bit of both or even a very complex situation of east to west then west to east then east to west all within the steppe zone.

alan
05-19-2020, 03:24 PM
So, does anyone want to venture a guess on the genesis of Corded Ware?

I have no clue, except to say it must have developed from one or more of the steppe Eneolithic groups that contributed to the development of Yamnaya.

Archaeologists have debated for generations so I dont think archaeology can answer it. Even with the ancient DNA evidence to supplement traditional archaeology, archaeologists still cant work it out exactly. The broad picture seems clear but the detail seems v hard to capture. The thing that intrigues me about very early CW is that it is so unadmixed with extra farmer DNA. Its very close to Yamnaya. If it took the Dnieper route, it had to do it prior to 2900BC (which is possible as CW dates commence around then or fractionally before) because a whole stream of GAC arrived on the middle Dnieper around then. It also somehow avoided mixing a great deal with the other farmer groups in the forest steppes too. However, the apparent phenomenon of earliest CW being v like barely admixed Yamnaya could have nothing to do with chronology or timing. It could be they went through periods of simply not breeding outside their own culture - a bit like some bell beaker groups (the isles especially) appear to have done. There is also the tremendous speed at which CW spread around 2900-2800BC. Pretty well did its entire spread west within a century. The CW spread east into Russia, Belarus etc was later c. 2700BC and by then they had admixed.

I suspect the best chance of explaining their earliest origin is by stripping away all the portable material culture and looking at the burial tradition. Regarding routes from the steppes into Old Europe (given that Poland is often seen as the origin point of the culture), there were apparently two routes operating around 3000BC. One was the Dniester route along the Ukraine-Moldova border then cutting across the western part of Ukraine into SE Poland. However, archaeologists have detected a second route that is essentially an east-west longitudinal one rather than a river valley one. It appears to be slightly more northern than the Dniester route and cut across from the Dnieper through Ukraine.

rms2
05-19-2020, 04:04 PM
Archaeologists have debated for generations so I dont think archaeology can answer it. Even with the ancient DNA evidence to supplement traditional archaeology, archaeologists still cant work it out exactly. The broad picture seems clear but the detail seems v hard to capture. The thing that intrigues me about very early CW is that it is so unadmixed with extra farmer DNA. Its very close to Yamnaya . . .


Exactly. Many if not most archaeologists up until quite recently thought Corded Ware developed in situ on the Northern European Plain from TRB groups that had come under the influence of steppe pastoralists. Corded Ware ancient dna must have given them quite a shock.

If they had been right, Corded Ware should have turned out kind of the way Remedello did, with IE trappings overlaying Neolithic farmer dna.

rms2
05-19-2020, 04:18 PM
. . . I suspect the best chance of explaining their earliest origin is by stripping away all the portable material culture and looking at the burial tradition.
. . .

I could be wrong, but that just has to be the product of some version of a steppe religion that just really took hold beginning with Corded Ware and involved some kind of drinking ritual or drinking culture.

It may have been a cult that really caught on with males, kind of the way Mithraism was mostly a religion of Roman soldiers, at least at first, since the cord-decorated drinking beakers correlate with male burials (see Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans, pp. 244-245).

One doesn't really see any signs of it in Yamnaya burial practices.

etrusco
05-19-2020, 08:49 PM
37662https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/05/a-significant-finding.html


ukraine neolithic.......

rms2
05-20-2020, 01:51 PM
I see the autosomal dna wranglers discussing that over in the Ancient DNA subforum in that Steppe Eneolithic thread. Whatever it means, it goes back a trifle too far to get us any closer to the genesis of Corded Ware. Interesting though.

anglesqueville
05-20-2020, 02:29 PM
I see the autosomal dna wranglers discussing that over in the Ancient DNA subforum in that Steppe Eneolithic thread. Whatever it means, it goes back a trifle too far to get us any closer to the genesis of Corded Ware. Interesting though.

Do you want 2 nice models from an autosomal DNA wrangler?
right pops:
LaBrana
Karelia_HG
Israel_PPNB
Tyumen
LapaDoSanto
Ganj_Dareh
Taforalt
Pinarbasi
Shum_Laka
Ust_Ishim_HG_published.DG
WHG_Losch

RISE434.SG M Corded_Ware_early
RISE435.SG F Corded_Ware_early
RISE436.SG M Corded_Ware_early
RISE446.SG M Corded_Ware_early
I4629 F Corded_Ware_early
I4110 F Ukraine_Eneolithic_SredniStog
PG2001 Steppe_Eneolithic_progress2
Model1
left pops:
Corded_Ware_early
Ukraine_Eneolithic_SredniStog
Steppe_Eneolithic_progress2
numsnps used: 1150465
best coefficients: 0.577 0.423
Jackknife mean: 0.576617509 0.423382491
std. errors: 0.066 0.066
fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 9 6.310 0.708502 0.577 0.423
*******************************
I1542 M Germany_Corded_Ware
I1536 M Germany_Corded_Ware
I1532 M Germany_Corded_Ware
I0049 F Germany_Corded_Ware
I0103 F Germany_Corded_Ware
I0104 M Germany_Corded_Ware

Model2
left pops:
Germany_Corded_Ware
Ukraine_Eneolithic_SredniStog
Steppe_Eneolithic_progress2
Globular_Amphora (Poland)
best coefficients: 0.627 0.314 0.059
Jackknife mean: 0.620296969 0.317514187 0.062188843
std. errors: 0.117 0.066 0.061
fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
000 0 8 5.642 0.687246 0.627 0.314 0.059
The limitations are obvious: one only individual for SS, one only for steppe_eneo.

rms2
05-20-2020, 05:32 PM
So, please provide your interpretation for those of us who aren't necessarily the best at interpreting these autosomal runs. Thus far, Sredni Stog looks like the best candidate as the main source of Corded Ware?

glentane
05-20-2020, 07:56 PM
I could be wrong, but that just has to be the product of some version of a steppe religion that just really took hold beginning with Corded Ware and involved some kind of drinking ritual or drinking culture.
A bit like the (turkic) Yakut/Sakha yhyakh festival?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yhyakh


https://i0.wp.com/expnowhere.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/2_fullsize.jpg?w=800

https://i0.wp.com/expnowhere.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/06Sakha-cultural-artifacts.jpg?w=600


The festival usually starts with an ancient ritual and algys (prayer) made by shaman; the prayer is for a well being of the people at the festival. Sprinkling kumys to the fire, sacrificing horsehair and pancakes is a part of the ritual. When the ritual is done people drink kumys from a special sacred vessel choron.

rms2
05-20-2020, 09:11 PM
A bit like the (turkic) Yakut/Sakha yhyakh festival?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yhyakh


https://i0.wp.com/expnowhere.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/2_fullsize.jpg?w=800

https://i0.wp.com/expnowhere.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/06Sakha-cultural-artifacts.jpg?w=600

Probably something along those lines: a drink offering and maybe a burnt offering to the Sky Father, followed by the passing around of the communal cord-decorated beaker containing mead or beer, and the sharing of a feast.

anglesqueville
05-20-2020, 09:37 PM
So, please provide your interpretation for those of us who aren't necessarily the best at interpreting these autosomal runs. Thus far, Sredni Stog looks like the best candidate as the main source of Corded Ware?

You are more qualified than me to say if it's possible according to the archaeological data. For me, it looks a reasonable guess, but I'm always very suspicious of my guesses in those domains. According to this autosomal model, it's a serious possibility, which deserves to get verified or falsified with more Sredni_Stog samples.

rms2
05-20-2020, 09:58 PM
You are more qualified than me to say if it's possible according to the archaeological data. For me, it looks a reasonable guess, but I'm always very suspicious of my guesses in those domains. According to this autosomal model, it's a serious possibility, which deserves to get verified or falsified with more Sredni_Stog samples.

Sounds reasonable to me. I'm going to go back and re-read what I can about Sredni-Stog. Thanks for the input. It's very much appreciated.

rms2
05-21-2020, 05:45 PM
I don't see a whole lot in the archaeology of Sredni Stog that would make one say, "Wow! That's where Corded Ware came from!"

They buried their dead on their backs with legs flexed, not crouched on the side like Corded Ware, and they don't seem to have made a difference between males and females in burial orientation. They did, however, literally "orient" the dead: heads to the east.

Interestingly, the use of shell-tempered, cord-ornamented pottery apparently began with Sredni Stog (after about 4000 BC; see Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans, page 200), but Sredni Stog pots were bag shaped, with round or pointed bottoms, unlike Corded Ware pots.

Sredni Stog people, like Corded Ware, also placed a great deal of emphasis on horses and stock breeding.

So, maybe Sredni Stog people were the ancestors of the Corded Ware people, but somewhere along the way Corded Ware acquired the new religion or whatever it was that led to its signature burial rite.

There were other steppe people whose burial rite was more similar to Corded Ware than the Sredni Stog burial rite was, so maybe there was some kind of fusion between Sredni Stog people and another steppe people with a much more CW-type of burial tradition.

razyn
05-21-2020, 06:19 PM
I'm going to go back and re-read what I can about Sredni-Stog.

One little trick I have only just noticed is that Ukrainians call it Seredniy Stih. I think publications from the country through which the Dnipr (or whatever) actually flows -- especially the most recent publications -- may not spell it "Sredny Stog." Even though the modern article is in English, one's online search might miss it through failing to try their preferred transliteration (from a language other than Russian).

rms2
05-21-2020, 06:31 PM
One little trick I have only just noticed is that Ukrainians call it Seredniy Stih. I think publications from the country through which the Dnipr (or whatever) actually flows -- especially the most recent publications -- may not spell it "Sredny Stog." Even though the modern article is in English, one's online search might miss it through failing to try their preferred transliteration (from a language other than Russian).

That makes sense. I know if you see a g in Russian, Ukrainians will pronounce it like an h. My wife's name, for example, is Galina, but instead of "Gala", her Ukrainian cousins (my mother-in-law is Ukrainian) call her "Hala".

Russians tend to do the opposite and turn h's into g's. My wife refers to Hitler as "Gitler".

etrusco
05-21-2020, 08:44 PM
I don't see a whole lot in the archaeology of Sredni Stog that would make one say, "Wow! That's where Corded Ware came from!"

They buried their dead on their backs with legs flexed, not crouched on the side like Corded Ware, and they don't seem to have made a difference between males and females in burial orientation. They did, however, literally "orient" the dead: heads to the east.

Interestingly, the use of shell-tempered, cord-ornamented pottery apparently began with Sredni Stog (after about 4000 BC; see Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans, page 200), but Sredni Stog pots were bag shaped, with round or pointed bottoms, unlike Corded Ware pots.

Sredni Stog people, like Corded Ware, also placed a great deal of emphasis on horses and stock breeding.

So, maybe Sredni Stog people were the ancestors of the Corded Ware people, but somewhere along the way Corded Ware acquired the new religion or whatever it was that led to its signature burial rite.

There were other steppe people whose burial rite was more similar to Corded Ware than the Sredni Stog burial rite was, so maybe there was some kind of fusion between Sredni Stog people and another steppe people with a much more CW-type of burial tradition.

Steps to Corded Ware

Sredni Stog II ( which has also battle axes)
Sredni Stog II absorbes more CHG rich population from the Lower Don lowering down its EEF component and becoming basically a Yamnaya like population ( EBA steppe). Yamnaya is basically SS + lower Don
Sredni Stog moves west towards the north eastern carpathians ( and toward the baltic zone ) where it borrows the gendered differentiated burial that was typical of some balkano-carpathian cultures ( see jeunesse ) like Tizsa
and Corded Ware is served!

rms2
05-21-2020, 09:52 PM
Maybe.

How much EEF did Sredni Stog have?

You'd have to swing Sredni Stog a little too far west and south to get them adopting practices from Tisza. From what I read about Tisza burials, they aren't really very much like CW burials, except for the crouched posture. Does Jeunesse say they practiced sexual dimorphism in burial orientation? Do you have a link to what he wrote about it?

At Nalchik in the North Caucasus piedmont there were kurgan-type burials that were very similar to those of Corded Ware, with bodies on their sides in the crouched position, males on their right sides and females on their left. Those were pretty early, though; they predated Maykop.

Mikhailovka burials are a lot like CW and BB burials. Budzhak came from the same area afterwards and continued those practices. Not sure about sexual dimorphism, however.

Generalissimo
05-21-2020, 10:37 PM
It's a mistake to base any conclusions on the currently available Sredny Stog samples.

parasar
05-21-2020, 11:47 PM
It's a mistake to base any conclusions on the currently available Sredny Stog samples.

Why so?

Generalissimo
05-22-2020, 12:34 AM
Why so?

Because there are other Sredny Stog samples coming from other sites, and they're different.

uintah106
05-22-2020, 01:05 AM
Because there are other Sredny Stog samples coming from other sites, and they're different.

Hopefully you will do better on this than you did on corded ware being exclusively R1A. Oh well your opinions are still valid.

Generalissimo
05-22-2020, 01:18 AM
Hopefully you will do better on this than you did on corded ware being exclusively R1A. Oh well your opinions are still valid.

I was right and you were wrong.

Single Grave > Bell Beakers (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/single-grave-bell-beakers.html)

rms2
05-22-2020, 01:30 AM
I was right and you were wrong.

Single Grave > Bell Beakers (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/01/single-grave-bell-beakers.html)

Yes, you were, and we're seeing that confirmed.

I wish they would hurry up with some more papers. I'd like to see some Dutch Single Grave samples, as well as those Eneolithic steppe samples that are supposed to be on the way.

I'd like to see things finally settled, but then what?

uintah106
05-22-2020, 02:03 AM
Yes, you were, and we're seeing that confirmed.

I wish they would hurry up with some more papers. I'd like to see some Dutch Single Grave samples, as well as those Eneolithic steppe samples that are supposed to be on the way.

I'd like to see things finally settled, but then what?I missed that, is P312 in corded ware?Is R1a in Bell Beaker?

slievenamon
05-22-2020, 04:02 AM
I have been in travel status this past week. Your thread is of interest and I would like to contribute the following regarding the Danube. There is another piece that goes with this. A Dutch connection.
Please forgive me, I am unable to locate it at the moment.


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278660471_Neolithic_Longhouses_and_Bronze_Age_Hous es_in_Central_Europe

Abstract
The investigation of the cause and guiding principles of the orientation of houses has been a neglected field in archaeological studies. If clear regularity can be observed in the location of houses and constructions, it is assumed to follow the prevailing winds in most cases. The position of a house is influenced by environmental and non-environmental factors. Besides the winds, sunlight, heat, etc., it is argued in anthropology that there is no phase in building traditional houses in which the position is not connected to a rite. Careful investigation of the orientation can reveal some attitude of prehistoric peoples to their natural surroundings that involve not only the terrestrial but also the celestial “landscape” as an inseparable unity.


Danubius 2011 Gabriella Kulcsar
https://www.academia.edu/1166414/Danubius_2011
Ten Thousand Years Along The Middle Danube
Untangling the Early Bronze Age in the Middle Danube Valley
Pages 179-210

The Danube, the most important waterway and catchment of the Carpathian Basin, passes through richly diverse regions during it's many thousand kilometres long course. One obvious question is to what extent the river acted as a link/contact zone/mediator between geographically distant regions during various archeological periods. The Budapest section of the Danube, dissected by smaller inlets, was particularly suited to fording and offered ideal conditions for human settlement since early prehistory. This study examines the onset of the Early Bronze Age (ca 2800/2700-2200/2100 BC) in the Middle Danube Valley.

http://matricamuzeum.hu/en/park-bemutatasa/

Százhalombatta is a town in Pest county, Hungary. The name of this town in Hungarian literally means "One hundred tumuli" referring to the tumulus field at the edge of the town. HistoryGroups of people had already settled in this area four thousand years ago in the Neolithic Age. On the plateau stretching over the River Danube in the Old Town, the Bronze Age population built an earthwork, the defence of which was ensured by the river in the northeast, the deep valley in the south and by a rampart in the west. The earthwork was inhabited for almost six hundred years. The layers of the settlements deposited on one another now amount to a depth of up to six meters. This tell settlement is now called Százhalombatta-Földvár. Excavation and management of the site is by the Matrica Museum as part of an international project on Bronze Age Europe. In the 7th-6th centuries BC it was the eastern branch of the Hallstatt culture that appeared in the region. Significant people from the culture's population are buried in the tumulus graveyard. The six-hectare territory presently functions as an archeological park, also part of the Matrica Museum. It is in this prehistoric open-air museum that a 2,700-year-old tumulus was excavated, reconstructed and inaugurated in April 1998 by the President of Hungary, Árpád Göncz. In the tumulus, the remains of a crypt can be viewed accompanied by a multimedia presentation of the funeral rite and beliefs of the era.


37680

anglesqueville
05-22-2020, 06:31 AM
It's a mistake to base any conclusions on the currently available Sredny Stog samples.

Well, it's not by chance that I wrote: "it's a serious possibility, which deserves to get verified or falsified with more Sredni_Stog samples.". Honestly, I was hoping that "verified" was the good face of the coin because SS would be a rather clear and simple solution to this irritating problem. Can you tell more about these upcoming samples?

Generalissimo
05-22-2020, 08:23 AM
Well, it's not by chance that I wrote: "it's a serious possibility, which deserves to get verified or falsified with more Sredni_Stog samples.". Honestly, I was hoping that "verified" was the good face of the coin because SS would be a rather clear and simple solution to this irritating problem. Can you tell more about these upcoming samples?

Similar to early Corded Ware and Yamnaya.

rms2
05-22-2020, 11:44 AM
I missed that, is P312 in corded ware?Is R1a in Bell Beaker?

Look at all the R1b-L51 turning up in Corded Ware, realize the limitations on y-dna resolution in ancient dna, and be a little bit patient as you also grasp the fact that those samples really are Corded Ware samples, some of them pretty old, with ~70-80% steppe dna.

The full-on, better resolution, P312 stuff is coming. Also consider the actual reasoning, taking into account the relationship between Dutch Beaker and British Beaker, how very CW-like they both are, both genetically and culturally, and the Dutch Model of Beaker origins, which derives Beaker from Single Grave Corded Ware, particularly Protruding Foot Beaker.

So, yeah, Generalissimo was and is right.

I don't get the part about R1a in Beaker. Who said anything about that?

Apparently Beaker was simply a P312-rich late Corded Ware variant.

BTW, a couple of years ago almost everyone thought Corded Ware was a monolithic block of R1a, because that was what was turning up in Corded Ware remains, time after time.

Right now everyone thinks Yamnaya is pretty much a solid block of R1b-Z2103, because that is what is turning up in Yamnaya remains, time after time.

I think that too might change, but I could be wrong.

anglesqueville
05-22-2020, 12:12 PM
Similar to early Corded Ware and Yamnaya.

So I6561 Aleksandriya's so-called outlier was less outlier than avant-garde ?

anglesqueville
05-22-2020, 12:15 PM
Look at all the R1b-L51 turning up in Corded Ware, realize the limitations on y-dna resolution in ancient dna, and be a little bit patient as you also grasp the fact that those samples really are Corded Ware samples, some of them pretty old, with ~70-80% steppe dna.

The full-on, better resolution, P312 stuff is coming. Also consider the actual reasoning, taking into account the relationship between Dutch Beaker and British Beaker, how very CW-like they both are, both genetically and culturally, and the Dutch Model of Beaker origins, which derives Beaker from Single Grave Corded Ware, particularly Protruding Foot Beaker.

So, yeah, Generalissimo was and is right.

I don't get the part about R1a in Beaker. Who said anything about that?

Apparently Beaker was simply a P312-rich late Corded Ware variant.

BTW, a couple of years ago almost everyone thought Corded Ware was a monolithic block of R1a, because that was what was turning up in Corded Ware remains, time after time.

Right now everyone thinks Yamnaya is pretty much a solid block of R1b-Z2103, because that is what is turning up in Yamnaya remains, time after time.

I think that too might change, but I could be wrong.

I don't have a single word to change. I can't wait to see these new people from Sredni Stog.

rms2
05-22-2020, 05:22 PM
I don't have a single word to change. I can't wait to see these new people from Sredni Stog.

Me too. Lots of rumors floating around, all of them exciting. Hope we're not in for any disappointments.

alan
05-22-2020, 06:49 PM
Similar to early Corded Ware and Yamnaya.

In terms of yDNA too?

alan
05-22-2020, 07:02 PM
I don't have a single word to change. I can't wait to see these new people from Sredni Stog.

Yeah if you break the numbers of well resolved yDNA samples down into how many samples are known from each 250 year block in each large river valley and interfluve area then the sample numbers in each area and each time interval are small (and absent in some places). So small that until now they probably have not been big enough to pick up most of the smaller lineages. Plus there is the big possible distortion factor that many of the kurgans may be from one royal lineage and its cadet branches. In fact its undeniable that you tend to get a pattern from c. 3000-2000BC of single lineages being dominant in each culture in the most clearcut and visible (i.e. probably the most prestigious) burials. Its universally accepted that the numbers of burials in almost all cultures is far to small to represent more than a small part of the entire population.

That was even true of the Neolithic farmers! So, its dangerous to assume that they represent the whole population. Its pretty clear that there was a parallel surviving Mesolithic population living side by side but separately from the farmers. Otherwise it is hard to explain how there was a rise in WHG across Europe as the Neolithic progressed.

This extreme selectivity of who got a prominent classic (for the culture) burial is almost certainly true of all periods. The suddenness of genetic change is probably hugely exaggerated by this. The actual reality was likely in-situ demographic outbreeding of the locals over several centuries with a small amount of absorbing of them.

alan
05-22-2020, 07:08 PM
Certainly Sredny Stog (or at least part of it - it looks to me like it may have varied a lot) being similar to Yamnaya would not surprise archaeologists because it was always thought of as a key culture likely linked to the early IEs - probably in some sort of pre-proto IE or Anatolian type stage of development. Interestingly though, people like Anthony consider that Sredny Stog originated in a migration west from the east end of the Euro steppe into the Dnieper-Don zone. One formed, the Sredny Stog culture had a very complex history of interactions west and east. So, as I said, it probably varied a lot of time and space.

uintah106
05-23-2020, 09:44 PM
delete

uintah106
05-23-2020, 10:09 PM
Look at all the R1b-L51 turning up in Corded Ware, realize the limitations on y-dna resolution in ancient dna, and be a little bit patient as you also grasp the fact that those samples really are Corded Ware samples, some of them pretty old, with ~70-80% steppe dna.

The full-on, better resolution, P312 stuff is coming. Also consider the actual reasoning, taking into account the relationship between Dutch Beaker and British Beaker, how very CW-like they both are, both genetically and culturally, and the Dutch Model of Beaker origins, which derives Beaker from Single Grave Corded Ware, particularly Protruding Foot Beaker.

So, yeah, Generalissimo was and is right.

I don't get the part about R1a in Beaker. Who said anything about that?

Apparently Beaker was simply a P312-rich late Corded Ware variant.

BTW, a couple of years ago almost everyone thought Corded Ware was a monolithic block of R1a, because that was what was turning up in Corded Ware remains, time after time.

Right now everyone thinks Yamnaya is pretty much a solid block of R1b-Z2103, because that is what is turning up in Yamnaya remains, time after time.

I think that too might change, but I could be wrong.

Because R1a seems to have penetrated western Europe first as far as indo European Y lines but the "Beast of a Haplogroup " got replaced by L-151

rms2
05-24-2020, 03:09 AM
Because R1a seems to have penetrated western Europe first as far as indo European Y lines but the "Beast of a Haplogroup " got replaced by L-151

It doesn't look to me like R1a was the first Indo-European y-dna line to penetrate western Europe. It looks like R1b-L51 might have been in the first CW wave west. We don't have any y-dna from Single Grave in the Netherlands, for example, and if you look at the CW stuff that just popped up in Switzerland, it's R1b-L51.

R1a is "a beast of a haplogroup". Saying that doesn't take anything away from R1b-M269.

Tolan
05-24-2020, 07:00 AM
I know there is a kind of ebb and flow to these Anthrogenica threads that results in some posts receiving little to no attention - or maybe sometimes things that are interesting or cool to me just don't strike everybody else the same way.

Anyway, did anyone catch what I posted about the no-man's-land of several hundred kilometers maintained between Yamnaya and Corded Ware?

The authors of the article, "Pit Graves, Yamnaya and Kurgans along the Lower Danube", Frinculeasa, Preda, and Heyd, mention it on page 67:



As I mentioned in that earlier post, it looks like the two groups tried to avoid conflict with one another, in contrast to the women-stealing and wipe-outs CW was perpetrating against GAC.

Care to comment?

Were CW and Yamnaya herders still speaking mutually-intelligible IE dialects at that time (late 4th millennium - early 3rd millennium BC) and recognized each other as kin?

The GAC population seems rather difficult to distinguish from the neolitic population of Western Europe.
But do you think that a CW and GAC mix could have given the Bell beakers further west, Or are the beakers a CW and local neolithic mix?
I still have this question of the origin of the Neolithics in the DNA of Modern's Western Europeans: Does it come from the Neolithics of Western Europe, or from GACs, or both?
Sorry if my question is a little on the fringes of the main subject...

rms2
05-24-2020, 03:10 PM
The GAC population seems rather difficult to distinguish from the neolitic population of Western Europe.
But do you think that a CW and GAC mix could have given the Bell beakers further west, Or are the beakers a CW and local neolithic mix?
I still have this question of the origin of the Neolithics in the DNA of Modern's Western Europeans: Does it come from the Neolithics of Western Europe, or from GACs, or both?
Sorry if my question is a little on the fringes of the main subject...

I don't think that is off-topic at all.

The original Olalde et al Beaker paper pre-print said that the Neolithic farmer element in Beaker most closely resembled GAC and Swedish TRB. The "Swedish" part is a little confusing, at least for me (but I'm easily confused). If Swedish TRB is like continental TRB, then the GAC+TRB part makes perfect sense, since that was what lay along the path of Corded Ware into the North European plain.

Beaker had more farmer dna than Corded Ware simply because Beaker began a little later than Corded Ware, and its people had more time to be the products of admixture.

uintah106
05-24-2020, 06:09 PM
It doesn't look to me like R1a was the first Indo-European y-dna line to penetrate western Europe. It looks like R1b-L51 might have been in the first CW wave west. We don't have any y-dna from Single Grave in the Netherlands, for example, and if you look at the CW stuff that just popped up in Switzerland, it's R1b-L51.

R1a is "a beast of a haplogroup". Saying that doesn't take anything away from R1b-M269.
No, though that was the intent.

rms2
05-24-2020, 08:10 PM
No, though that was the intent.

I don't see it.

Given all he has done in the past few years to assert that R1b-M269 is Indo-European and to then advance that idea, I'd say it's highly unlikely his intent was to denigrate it.

A little bragging about one's own y haplogroup is not so bad.

rms2
06-04-2020, 08:25 PM
So many new papers in the last couple of weeks, but none of the rumored early Corded Ware stuff yet.

rms2
06-12-2020, 11:52 AM
I guess interest in L51 and Corded Ware has waned and probably needs a new paper to reinvigorate it. No one except me seems to want to discuss the topic.

Oh, well. In the meantime, I'll find something else to do.

razyn
06-12-2020, 01:08 PM
I guess interest in L51 and Corded Ware has waned and probably needs a new paper to reinvigorate it. No one except me seems to want to discuss the topic.

Oh, well. In the meantime, I'll find something else to do.

It is a little more interesting, though less civil, in the Comments on the current topic of the Eurogenes blog. On the subject of this thread:
37977

rms2
06-12-2020, 02:58 PM
It is a little more interesting, though less civil, in the Comments on the current topic of the Eurogenes blog. On the subject of this thread:
37977

Thanks. Good for the stuff from Davidski. As for the rest, I usually skim it, if I read it at all.

nuadha
06-13-2020, 05:55 AM
Look at all the R1b-L51 turning up in Corded Ware, realize the limitations on y-dna resolution in ancient dna, and be a little bit patient as you also grasp the fact that those samples really are Corded Ware samples, some of them pretty old, with ~70-80% steppe dna.

The full-on, better resolution, P312 stuff is coming. Also consider the actual reasoning, taking into account the relationship between Dutch Beaker and British Beaker, how very CW-like they both are, both genetically and culturally, and the Dutch Model of Beaker origins, which derives Beaker from Single Grave Corded Ware, particularly Protruding Foot Beaker.

So, yeah, Generalissimo was and is right.

I don't get the part about R1a in Beaker. Who said anything about that?

Apparently Beaker was simply a P312-rich late Corded Ware variant.

BTW, a couple of years ago almost everyone thought Corded Ware was a monolithic block of R1a, because that was what was turning up in Corded Ware remains, time after time.

Right now everyone thinks Yamnaya is pretty much a solid block of R1b-Z2103, because that is what is turning up in Yamnaya remains, time after time.

I think that too might change, but I could be wrong.

What else do you think yamnaya and was able to transmit at significant rates?

rms2
06-13-2020, 11:47 AM
Well, for some reason you've been banned, so I guess it's of little use to ask you to clarify.

I think it's pretty obvious that I meant I think it's possible that Yamnaya might have had and transmitted something other than Z2103. I could be wrong, but we'll see, if researchers ever get around to really testing a good number of Yamnaya remains over a wider area.

jdean
06-13-2020, 12:32 PM
Well, for some reason you've been banned, so I guess it's of little use to ask you to clarify.

I think it's pretty obvious that I meant I think it's possible that Yamnaya might have had and transmitted something other than Z2103. I could be wrong, but we'll see, if researchers ever get around to really testing a good number of Yamnaya remains over a wider area.

All these rumours of work in progress keeping us on tenterhooks but when !!!!

rms2
06-14-2020, 01:13 PM
All these rumours of work in progress keeping us on tenterhooks but when !!!!

I know. In the meantime, wish I could order a good book on Corded Ware, but in English they seem few and far between. I can read German, and there are some books on Corded Ware in German, but they're pretty expensive.

jdean
06-14-2020, 02:18 PM
I know. In the meantime, wish I could order a good book on Corded Ware, but in English they seem few and far between. I can read German, and there are some books on Corded Ware in German, but they're pretty expensive.

At least you've the option of reading in German : )

Have you tried Abebooks (https://www.abebooks.com/) ?

rms2
06-15-2020, 06:24 PM
I got a paper on Corded Ware just yesterday, but it's in German. I can read German, but I must confess it's slower going for me than a paper in my own native English. Looks very good thus far, though, and it's current.

alan
06-15-2020, 08:04 PM
I know. In the meantime, wish I could order a good book on Corded Ware, but in English they seem few and far between. I can read German, and there are some books on Corded Ware in German, but they're pretty expensive.

Same problem with eastern European archaeology. Much of it isnt in English. I've found the same problem with Italian archaeology and even French archaeology although I can muddle my way through French. I discovered Dutch is pretty understandable to an English speaker too, especially if you are familiar with broad Scots dialects which tend to still use forms closer to the original Germanic than standard English.

alan
06-15-2020, 09:45 PM
Well, for some reason you've been banned, so I guess it's of little use to ask you to clarify.

I think it's pretty obvious that I meant I think it's possible that Yamnaya might have had and transmitted something other than Z2103. I could be wrong, but we'll see, if researchers ever get around to really testing a good number of Yamnaya remains over a wider area.

Yeah the north-west Ukraine area around the Dniester has Yamnaya on its forest steppe stretches. Its totally unsampled. However, it looks to me from the late CW outbreak of L51 in SE Poland which coincides with contacts with the steppes c. 2500BC that there was likely a reservoir of L51 left on the steppes even after L11, P312 etc had already appeared in CW and early beaker elsewhere. My guess is the L11/P312 groups took a similar route c. 2800BC but left some other L51 groups behind on either the Middle Dniester or Middle Dnieper or both which only then leaked again into Poland c. 2500BC when Catacomb influences reached Poland. AFAIK that area is totally unsampled. I had a look at the extremely complex mix of cultures in NW Ukraine c. 3000-2500BC and it seemed to me that the most likely (partly on chronological grounds but also some of the burial forms) P312 source in NW Ukraine would have been the forest steppe Yamnaya. The fact that other L51 groups arrived in SE Poland around the time late Yamnaya/Catacomb influences show a contact route from the steppes suggests L51 somewhere in NW (ish) Ukraine.

My instinct suggests the Dniester route. However, it is also bearing in mind that If you look at maps of Catacomb, there is a big gap between Catacomb graves in Ukraine and the SE Polish Catacomb influences ones (the L51 CW guys) and unexpectedly, the closest group to SE Poland was actually a group creeping along the Prypit River on the Ukraine-Belarus border. This river joins the Middle Dnieper to the east. Seems an odd place as this river passes through the Prypit Marshes. However, people have overlooked an important fact: while the pripet marshes are a big historic land barrier, a navigable river flows through them - still navigable as far as the port of Pinsk (close to the Chernobyl exclusions zone). If you follow the line of that river as far west as you can, it takes you close to the area of Poland where the Polish, Ukraine and Belarus borders all meet. That just so happens to be the area of Poland where the L51 later CW late yamanaya/catacomb influenced CW burials are.

So, that leaves open the possibility that the L51 reservoir on the steppes was on the Middle Dnieper or the Middle Dniester. Its surely got to have been in that zone given L51's appearance in late Yamnaya/Catacomb influenced CW graves in Poland. It is even possible that P312 took the Dniester c. 2800BC from the Yampil complex zone and simply rounded the north side of the Carpathians and headed west - that Czech guy c. 2750BC - while the later L51 CW Polish guys c. 2500BC or so took the more northern east to west Dnieper-Pripit River route. I have read elsewhere separately that the two routes through Ukraine to central Europe suggested by archaeology are indeed the Dniester route north-west and a longitudinal route straight east to west from the Middle Dnieper.

This all would place L51 in the forest steppes somewhere between the Middle Dniester and Middle Dnieper in the Yamnaya culture and Catacomb influenced late Yamnaya c. 2800-2500BC. Personally, for P312 I would be looking at the forest steppe type Yamaya element in that Yampil area on the Middle Dniester on the Ukraine-Moldova Border. That's an area where GAC appears shortly after 3000BC and CW also borders it (dating less well understood).

Apologies about lots of different spellings of Pripet

rms2
06-15-2020, 11:25 PM
Don't forget the L52/P310 that turned up recently in Afanasievo way out in Mongolia.

alan
06-16-2020, 12:51 PM
Don't forget the L52/P310 that turned up recently in Afanasievo way out in Mongolia.

Certainly that ties in with L51 in Yamnaya too. Yamnaya is later at the west end of the steppes so if L51 was in Yamnaya it may have only moved to the west of Ukraine c. 3000BC. Prior to that it couldbe been in the Russian part of the Euro steppes.

In general it suggests too that L11/P312 was vanguard and got west ahead of L52 groups that appear in late SE Polish CW. Could mean P312 was on the Middle Dniester with L52 further east on the Dnieper and beyond, explaining its capture within the Catacomb zone. But of course there are other possibilities.

This is useful if you ignore the uralic stuff

https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/indo-iranian-influence-on-west-uralic-through-the-catacomb-culture/

alan
06-16-2020, 07:20 PM
Its an interesting distribution that the pre-beaker L51 west of the steppes/Russia shows. SE Poland, Czech, Switzerland. It might be pure chance but it does kind of give the impression that they were following the northern edge of the mountains - Carpathians then Alps - when travelling west. That might make sense if the interest in metals of the lineage pre-dates bell beaker. There isnt a great deal of point following the north European Plain with its glacial deposit lowlands if you are seeking metals. Even the most basic metallurgical knowledge would encourage you to follow uplands/rocky areas (rocky coasts if you were near the sea).

alan
06-16-2020, 10:59 PM
Another strange thing is this. If we consider the late CW L51 (L52?) guys in SE Poland as a cousin branch to the P312 guys in beaker, which seems fair to do so, then we also have to account as to why they had a burial tradition that strongly resembled central European bell beaker. If there were two waves from Ukraine into north-central Europe, many of the elements of the burial tradition persisted long enough to be present in both waves. However the L11/P312 CW guys are not buried in beaker fashion. It appears that both bell beaker P312 and the L51 CW guys in Poland both took up the classic beaker burial modes at the same time c. 2500BC. That is too much of a coincidence for them not to be in some way connected or in contact. Despite stray L11 in Switzerland, it seems to me that the P312 CW that led to beaker remained in east-central Europe close enough to where the late CW L51 groups appeared in order for both to adopt almost the same burial ritual. Culturally the P312 group who commenced the classic bell beaker culture in Europe seem rather close to the late CW Polish L52 guys. Obviously this isnt because of a common root because the L11/P312 CW guys west of Poland do not have a bell beaker type ritual.

Generalissimo
06-17-2020, 04:26 AM
Despite stray L11 in Switzerland, it seems to me that the P312 CW that led to beaker remained in east-central Europe close enough to where the late CW L51 groups appeared in order for both to adopt almost the same burial ritual.

Nonsense. Beakers arrived in Poland from the west not from the east. The L151 in Switzerland wasn't a stray. That whole area was rich in L151/L51/P312 since early CWC times. Look at the other CWC samples there.

And stop reading Carlos Quiles' scribbles. They'll rot your brain.

alan
06-17-2020, 11:51 AM
Nonsense. Beakers arrived in Poland from the west not from the east. The L151 in Switzerland wasn't a stray. That whole area was rich in L151/L51/P312 since early CWC times. Look at the other CWC samples there.

And stop reading Carlos Quiles' scribbles. They'll rot your brain.

I know beaker arrived from west to east but the very beaker-like later CW L51 guys in southern Poland did bury very similarly to P312 bell beaker people. So, IMO, the classic beaker rite must some somehow be connected with this specific south Polish later CW rite. Its odd and I cant explain it. My best guess is that P312 CW (or part of it) existed close enough to the south Polish late CW L51 group for the latter to somehow influence the former. The only other possibility is these later CW L51 group in south-east Poland was simply influenced by the bell beaker east group in Germany or Czech. The dates are awkwardly tight to make a call on this because both central European P312 bell beaker groups and the L51 later CW guys in southern poland appear around the same time c. 2500BC. Neverthesless I think the rites are way too similar and similar in date for there not to be some sort of connection. Its even weirder that both groups are L51, albeit different branches.

I do stand by my long held view that the bell beaker rite (the classic central European one) looks more like later CW groups to the the east of Germany than it does to classic western European CW. I know your genetic model is Holland but I find it easier to see the archaeological genesis of classic bell beaker more like in Germany - perhaps around Berlin.

Generalissimo
06-17-2020, 12:06 PM
I know beaker arrived from west to east but the very beaker-like later CW L51 guys in southern Poland did bury very similarly to P312 bell beaker people. So, IMO, the classic beaker rite must some somehow be connected with this specific south Polish later CW rite. Its odd and I cant explain it. My best guess is that P312 CW (or part of it) existed close enough to the south Polish late CW L51 group for the latter to somehow influence the former. The only other possibility is these later CW L51 group in south-east Poland was simply influenced by the bell beaker east group in Germany or Czech. The dates are awkwardly tight to make a call on this because both central European P312 bell beaker groups and the L51 later CW guys in southern poland appear around the same time c. 2500BC. Neverthesless I think the rites are way too similar and similar in date for there not to be some sort of connection. Its even weirder that both groups are L51, albeit different branches.

I do stand by my long held view that the bell beaker rite (the classic central European one) looks more like later CW groups to the the east of Germany than it does to classic western European CW. I know your genetic model is Holland but I find it easier to see the archaeological genesis of classic bell beaker more like in Germany - perhaps around Berlin.

Burial rites can be adopted and they can spread quickly.

Beakers were already in Poland at the time when those other L51/M417 CWC people lived in southeast Poland.

Revmac
06-17-2020, 07:45 PM
So, is there any indication in all of this as to how and where P312 and U106 came to be so well represented in their respective regions?

Did the North/South split between U106 & P312 happen in CW or BB?

rms2
06-18-2020, 05:12 PM
I'm not sure there was such a north/south split.

There is as much or more P312 in Northern Europe as there is U106. It's just that P312 is the bigger of the two and is spread in greater frequency farther south and west, while U106 seems to be more limited to the North.

Revmac
06-18-2020, 06:25 PM
I totally should have noticed that lol!

Small vs large is definitely a much more realistic way to think of that difference.

I’ve been wondering about that for a while. I just kind of figured that if two brother clades were moving in the same general direction, and one is more limited to a certain area, while the other has had greater expansion to most other areas. Then maybe that is an indicator of the direction that they entered these new lands from. That is more to the North like CW>BB (or other possible explanations) as opposed to more to the south like a Yam>BB trip up the Danube.

Either way, I’m on pins and needles waiting for the new info!

razyn
07-01-2020, 07:56 PM
It doesn't look to me like R1a was the first Indo-European y-dna line to penetrate western Europe. It looks like R1b-L51 might have been in the first CW wave west. We don't have any y-dna from Single Grave in the Netherlands, for example, and if you look at the CW stuff that just popped up in Switzerland, it's R1b-L51.

R1a is "a beast of a haplogroup". Saying that doesn't take anything away from R1b-M269.

I just got sufficiently despondent to look at Eurogenes again, and in the Comments on Davidski's new post yesterday (June 30) I noticed this:


Davidski said...

Single Grave is R1b-L51.

There's a paper coming about that soon. One of the many that are coming soon, but not soon enough. Haha.

June 30, 2020 at 4:24 PM

J Man
07-01-2020, 08:20 PM
R1b-L51 popping up in the Single Grave Culture makes a lot of sense. The Single Grave Culture is a variety of Corded Ware as you guys already know of course.

rms2
07-02-2020, 12:30 PM
I just got sufficiently despondent to look at Eurogenes again, and in the Comments on Davidski's new post yesterday (June 30) I noticed this:



Davidski said...

Single Grave is R1b-L51.

There's a paper coming about that soon. One of the many that are coming soon, but not soon enough. Haha.

June 30, 2020 at 4:24 PM


Oh, man, that sounds great. Really looking forward to that paper.

It makes all kinds of sense, but it sure will be nice to see it in black and white (with color graphics, of course). Hope they got a lot more than one sample.

alan
07-02-2020, 02:03 PM
Oh, man, that sounds great. Really looking forward to that paper.

It makes all kinds of sense, but it sure will be nice to see it in black and white (with color graphics, of course). Hope they got a lot more than one sample.

wow that is amazing if true. So we would have L51 in single grave (take it he means Low Countries and Danish CW), Czech CW, Polish CW, Swiss CW and there is that late CW era U106 from Sweden. I heard an unsubstantiated rumour it was in Fatyanovo too. Its really weird that for so long there was none found in CW and now its popping up all over the place.

alan
07-02-2020, 02:15 PM
I totally should have noticed that lol!

Small vs large is definitely a much more realistic way to think of that difference.

I’ve been wondering about that for a while. I just kind of figured that if two brother clades were moving in the same general direction, and one is more limited to a certain area, while the other has had greater expansion to most other areas. Then maybe that is an indicator of the direction that they entered these new lands from. That is more to the North like CW>BB (or other possible explanations) as opposed to more to the south like a Yam>BB trip up the Danube.

Either way, I’m on pins and needles waiting for the new info!

Yam-CW-beaker seems the likely truth. Some Yamnaya was placed in the forest steppes on the rivers between the Carpathians and Dnieper in west Ukraine. Being in the forest steppe zone of a river like the Dniester creates a natural route west and north to the north of the Carpathians both into Poland and towards the Baltic and west along the northern fringe of the Carpathians. That works both for L51 but also seems a natural route for CW as a whole to have its genesis. I will be interesting to see if there was a CW era split in L151 with U106 heading towards the Baltic/North Sea via Poland with P312 heading along the north side of the Carpathians and Alps west until they reached the Rhine.

rms2
07-02-2020, 04:54 PM
If it's really true - and there is no reason to doubt it - I am really looking forward to it. I liked the Beaker results, but there was so much controversy about Beaker and its origins that it was kind of bittersweet.

Single Grave Corded Ware is better because it is more powerfully steppe-centric. However, that won't stop the International League of Knuckleheads from challenging these results, despite the L52 from Afanasievo and anything else that comes down the pike, including Fatyanovo L51 results.

Shouldn't care, I guess. If and when these L51 Single Grave results come in, I'm going to have some t-shirts and bumper stickers made celebrating it.

I don't give a damn that my neighbors won't know what the hell I mean by it.

Dewsloth
07-02-2020, 04:57 PM
If it's really true - and there is no reason to doubt it - I am really looking forward to it. I liked the Beaker results, but there was so much controversy about Beaker and its origins that it was kind of bittersweet.

Single Grave Corded Ware is better because it is more powerfully steppe-centric. However, that won't stop the International League of Knuckleheads from challenging these results, despite the L52 from Afanasievo and anything else that comes down the pike, including Fatyanovo L51 results.

Shouldn't care, I guess. If and when these L51 Single Grave results come in, I'm going to have some t-shirts and bumper stickers made celebrating it.

Get a 2004 Corvette and change the engine markings (and license plate) from LS1 to L51 :biggrin1:

rms2
07-02-2020, 05:05 PM
Get a 2004 Corvette and change the engine markings (and license plate) from LS1 to L51 :biggrin1:

Were I Bill Gates, that might be an option.

I'll have to settle for t-shirts and bumper stickers, or maybe a new tattoo.

razyn
07-02-2020, 05:22 PM
Were I Bill Gates, that might be an option.

I'll have to settle for t-shirts and bumper stickers, or maybe a new tattoo.

One can get a really nice coffee mug for a reasonable price with a fired-on custom design (photo, L51 graphic, original art), e.g. a photo of some redheaded descendant. I know you already have a bell beaker for your mead; just saying.

rms2
07-02-2020, 05:25 PM
One can get a really nice coffee mug for a reasonable price with a fired-on custom design (photo, L51 graphic, original art), e.g. a photo of some redheaded descendant. I know you already have a bell beaker for your mead; just saying.

Good idea. T-shirt, bumper sticker, and coffee mug.

Here's one of my beakers, with some actual Czech beer in it.

38240

J Man
07-02-2020, 05:43 PM
Good idea. T-shirt, bumper sticker, and coffee mug.

Here's one of my beakers, with some actual Czech beer in it.

38240

In the Wkipedia write up about the Single Grave Culture it is mentioned that the "standardized" burial practices of the SGC seem to point towards gender equality. The source is an author named Price from 2015. Honestly though I find the notion of gender equality among the SGC to be pretty weak given that we now know for sure that the Corded Ware folks and Beaker folks were patrilineal and patrilocal with female exogamy and a presence for male offspring.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Grave_culture

rms2
07-02-2020, 05:48 PM
In the Wkipedia write up about the Single Grave Culture it is mentioned that the "standardized" burial practices of the SGC seem to point towards gender equality. The source is an author named Price from 2015. Honestly though I find the notion of gender equality among the SGC to be pretty weak given that we now know for sure that the Corded Ware folks and Beaker folks were patrilineal and patrilocal with female exogamy and a presence for male offspring.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Grave_culture

That's got to be bs, since Single Grave practiced gender dimorphic burials, and males had a greater and different set of grave goods than females. CW beakers are associated with males, which indicates some kind of ritual drinking culture among them, like NFL football maybe.

J Man
07-02-2020, 05:56 PM
That's got to be bs, since Single Grave practiced gender dimorphic burials, and males had a greater and different set of grave goods than females. CW beakers are associated with males, which indicates some kind of ritual drinking culture among them, like NFL football maybe.

Yup I agree 100%.

alan
07-03-2020, 01:37 PM
That's got to be bs, since Single Grave practiced gender dimorphic burials, and males had a greater and different set of grave goods than females. CW beakers are associated with males, which indicates some kind of ritual drinking culture among them, like NFL football maybe.

Yeah I cant think of many pre-2500BC cultures that used flexed side-position sexual dimorphic single burial other than CW and CW related ones. Quite a few do after steppe beaker came into being but AFAIK CW is the only pre-beaker one to have all those traits.

Its also clear that in CW, as well as the central tradition of E-W burials there was an alternative N-S looking east tradition that seems present in Swedish Battle Axe from the start c. 2900BC and also in Fatyanovo c. 2750BC, later Polish CW etc. For some reason by the time of steppe beaker P312 that group had choses this alternative to the E-W one. Where and when this took place is unclear to me at the moment. It may have simply been another aspect of their religion and idealogy which could randomly manifest itself in the beaker type position among any CW group who so chose.

The classic beaker burial position of central Europe seems to me to owe something to cosmological idealogy. In some ways its the perfect position as IEs seem to have seen the key orientation as one facing east with north on your left and south on your right. This is built into the words of many IE languages where east coms from 'front' and west is from 'back' while north/left is linked to words like sinister meaning bad but south/right is the opposite. The beaker positions place the males with heads to north on their left facing east while the females have head to south on their right side facing east seems almost like a 1 dimensional representation of the notion of a primarly key orientation of standing facing east with the north at the left and the right at the south. It capture all the symbolism in one go.

The central CW rite of E-W orientation with men with their heads to the west on the right side facing south also makes some sense as it links south with right and they still have an axis that includes east. The females with heads to the east on their left side looking south kind of breaks the links. Its not quite as clever as the classic beaker (and Swedish battle axe and other CW groups) method of combining the various direction and left/right links that seem to have existed in the IE cosmology. Just a thought but perhaps the females head being at the east in classic CW allowed as symbolism if them giving birth to the sun as it rose to the east.

But regardless, they both seems to have their roots in the same Cosmology and beliefs.

razyn
07-05-2020, 02:19 PM
I think, given the MRCA date is only of living L51, the formation date c. 4100BC may more important in terms of ancient times and it appears to me yfulls dates are probably 10% or so too young so L51 may have come into being something like 4500BC. That is 800 years old than Volosovo so it cannot have originated in that culture. Volosovo seems likely to be be a dead end subset of L51 relating to a group of Samara type hunter-fishers who headed upstream on the Volga...
More newsy news from Eurogenes, current post's Comments. I look at that conversation (?) so you don't have to.
____________________

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4123559132014627431&postID=2505593634453861353&isPopup=true&bpli=1

Davidski said...

There are quite a few Volosovo samples on the way from a couple of different labs.

I don't think they have any significant southern ancestry, apart maybe from a couple of outlier individuals, who might be part Fatyanovo or Yamnaya, not sure.

Most are R1b. It should be interesting to see which subclades exactly.

July 5, 2020 at 3:17 AM
____________________

As I write, there are 162 Comments on that particular blog post, and this was I believe #146 (although they aren't numbered). They get batched 200 at a time, so to find any further useful discussion there, it would be easier to search from the end than the beginning of this batch.

alan
07-05-2020, 02:38 PM
More newsy news from Eurogenes, current post's Comments. I look at that conversation (?) so you don't have to.
____________________

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4123559132014627431&postID=2505593634453861353&isPopup=true&bpli=1

Davidski said...

There are quite a few Volosovo samples on the way from a couple of different labs.

I don't think they have any significant southern ancestry, apart maybe from a couple of outlier individuals, who might be part Fatyanovo or Yamnaya, not sure.

Most are R1b. It should be interesting to see which subclades exactly.

July 5, 2020 at 3:17 AM
____________________

As I write, there are 162 Comments on that particular blog post, and this was I believe #146 (although they aren't numbered). They get batched 200 at a time, so to find any further useful discussion there, it would be easier to search from the end than the beginning of this batch.

Volosovo is interesting but its almost certainly an dead end side branch of L51 if that is what it is. The L51/L151/P312 that has now been confirmed in CW by 2750BC and almost certainly earlier clearly came from the zone where the Yamnaya type mix came into being. P297 seems to have existed along the full length of the Volga from the near-Baltic shore area to Samara in hunter-gatherer times. I suspect a central L23 hunter-gatherer origin point around the Volga-Kama intersection with Z2103 and some L51 heading downstream into the Yamnaya formation zone at a remote time and some L51 heading off upstream up the Volga as part of the Volasovo complex. But in general I think the Volasovo L51 (if that is what it is) was just a branch who went upstream a fishing at some point, which makes sense as they were all hunter-gatherers back then.

alan
07-05-2020, 02:54 PM
Its not my area of particular interest and certainly not expertise but I am guessing that the yDNA associated with Fatyanovo ends the idea of the Fatyanovo culture having any relation to the Baltic language. I suppose the same is true of the old theory of Middle Dnieper and Slavic. Seems that whole Fatyanovo-Abashevo-Sintanshta/Andronomo type chain of cultures relates entirely to Indo-Iranian origins and no surviving European languages. It does raise the issue of what then was the origin of the Baltic speakers?

Coldmountains
07-05-2020, 03:01 PM
Its not my area of particular interest and certainly not expertise but I am guessing that the yDNA associated with Fatyanovo ends the idea of the Fatyanovo culture having any relation to the Baltic language. I suppose the same is true of the old theory of Middle Dnieper and Slavic. Seems that whole Fatyanovo-Abashevo-Sintanshta/Andronomo type chain of cultures relates entirely to Indo-Iranian origins and no surviving European languages. It does raise the issue of what then was the origin of the Baltic speakers?

well the Dnieper region would be the contact zone between earliest CWC and GAC so it makes sense to derive Fatyanovo from there like the authors proposed but this not means that Middle Dnieper was fully Z93 and just ancestral to Fatyanovo. This region would be the zone where the late CWC genetic profile formed typical for later Fatyanovo, Bell Beakers and later CWC samples so i rather think the Middle Dnjepr region had a more diverse variety of R1a and R1b clades. Balto-Slavs formed most likely between the Midlle Dnieper and Vistula region. At least linguistic and genetic evidence (Balto-Slavic drift in CWC Baltic and CWC Poland) points to that.

alan
07-05-2020, 08:28 PM
well the Dnieper region would be the contact zone between earliest CWC and GAC so it makes sense to derive Fatyanovo from there like the authors proposed but this not means that Middle Dnieper was fully Z93 and just ancestral to Fatyanovo. This region would be the zone where the late CWC genetic profile formed typical for later Fatyanovo, Bell Beakers and later CWC samples so i rather think the Middle Dnjepr region had a more diverse variety of R1a and R1b clades. Balto-Slavs formed most likely between the Midlle Dnieper and Vistula region. At least linguistic and genetic evidence (Balto-Slavic drift in CWC Baltic and CWC Poland) points to that.

Archaeologically speaking the Dniester is far more likely early contact point between steppe and GAC. GAG barely makes it as far as the Dnieper but it strongly passes downstream into the Dniester and Bug zone (and also the rivers between the Dniester and east Carpathians). I think its been dated (in terms of SE GAC) earliest in the Dniester zone and somewhat later elsewhere in and around Ukraine.

The Middle Dnieper culture is a confusing culture but the name is part of the problem. The earliest dated remains of Middle Dnieper style are actually from further west. It seems to have connections west. Later CW niche/catacomb graves from c. 2500-2400BC found in SE Poland had isoltopic signals as well as some artefacts which showed they had lived in the Middle Dnieper area. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6300194/pdf/pone.0207748.pdf

This is the same area and period and I think type of burial that the L51 CW guys in SE Poland that were recently published were buried in. I'm not sure if some are literally the same graves. Nonetheless it does indicate the two areas were closely linked c. 2500-2400BC. Whether these give an indirect idea of what Middle Dnieper culture people were like genetically is not clear as fostering could also explain it perhaps. However, the L51 CW people of SE Poland (I believe they were non-L151) do seem a new element as do other grave features which some link to the steppes. So, perhaps these L51xL151 guys might actually be migrants from the Middle Dniester area and therefore culture.

But its not that simple. There is a lot of strange eastern connections going on in SE Poland c. 2500-2400BC including Middle Dniester and Catacomb. The fact they are a form of L51 is interesting in terms of the location of L51 as a whole prior to CW. Its also interesting that this strange later CW group in south-east Poland have bodies orientated beaker style, have a form of beaker, use hollow based arrowheads (like central European beaker) and have a generally high amount of metals, archery equipment too.

Their y line is a genetic distant cousin of beaker and their culture makes them look like a close cousin of beaker. Whatever the source of these L51 CW guys in SE Poland (which clearly looks towards the steppe and middle Dnieper too), its almost as if that source also possessed a lot of the traits shown by beaker P312 people. I must admit I dont understand it but its facinating.

It might point towards a reservoir of L51 remaining in Ukraine (after L151 had already left and was part of CW) across the whole span of 2900-2500/2400BC somewhere between the middle Dnieper and Middle Dniester and interfacing with Catacomb. The position of a cousin may give an indication of the immediate pre-CW position of L151 too. I definitely think western Ukraine forest steppe area between the Dnieper and Dniester is likely, with the Dniester providing the most convenient route although there are other more difficult ones like moving on boats from the Dnieper system following the river than goes through the Pripet marshes on the Ukraine/Belarus border and gets you close to SE Poland.

I think the connections between Middle Dnieper and Fatyanovo may be secondary and not related to either's origins.

TigerMW
09-21-2020, 05:41 PM
Just an FYI in case any one want to join in and help!

Over on the ISOGG Facebook a thread was started on the Phoenicians and the comments were made a long the lines of them founding the Irish race due to the Irish Annals.

I started a new thread and started going through these papers by Olalde, Reich, Haak, etc.

I forgot where some people are coming from, still.

We have those who think the Phoenicians were a big deal for Ireland. We have those think R1b must have come up to Ireland out of Iberia. Of course, we have the variation on that the Basques are the key and their language.

L51's ancestral route and timing into Central and West Europe becomes important.

Then we have those who think the Irish, Scots, etc. were not Celts. I forgot that Celticism needs to be defined before talking about it.

Anyway, you are welcome to join that conversation, and add your own twists.

rms2
09-26-2020, 12:06 AM
Just an FYI in case any one want to join in and help!

Over on the ISOGG Facebook a thread was started on the Phoenicians and the comments were made a long the lines of them founding the Irish race due to the Irish Annals.

I started a new thread and started going through these papers by Olalde, Reich, Haak, etc.

I forgot where some people are coming from, still.

We have those who think the Phoenicians were a big deal for Ireland. We have those think R1b must have come up to Ireland out of Iberia. Of course, we have the variation on that the Basques are the key and their language.

L51's ancestral route and timing into Central and West Europe becomes important.

Then we have those who think the Irish, Scots, etc. were not Celts. I forgot that Celticism needs to be defined before talking about it.

Anyway, you are welcome to join that conversation, and add your own twists.

Sounds like you have a bunch of retrograde folks there who have not kept up with what has gone on since about 2005. It would be a pain to be tasked with the job of bringing them up to speed. I would just point them to David Reich's book, Who We Are and How We Got Here, and tell them to shut the heck up until they've read it at least twice.

razyn
09-26-2020, 12:31 AM
I would just point them to David Anthony's book, Who We Are and How We Got Here, and tell them to shut the heck up until they've read it at least twice.

I agree, but it's by David Reich.

Agamemnon
09-26-2020, 12:39 AM
Just an FYI in case any one want to join in and help!

Over on the ISOGG Facebook a thread was started on the Phoenicians and the comments were made a long the lines of them founding the Irish race due to the Irish Annals.

I started a new thread and started going through these papers by Olalde, Reich, Haak, etc.

I forgot where some people are coming from, still.

We have those who think the Phoenicians were a big deal for Ireland. We have those think R1b must have come up to Ireland out of Iberia. Of course, we have the variation on that the Basques are the key and their language.

L51's ancestral route and timing into Central and West Europe becomes important.

Then we have those who think the Irish, Scots, etc. were not Celts. I forgot that Celticism needs to be defined before talking about it.

Anyway, you are welcome to join that conversation, and add your own twists.

We actually have more than a few Phoenician samples at our disposal now, among those are the Iron II samples from Beirut, the Iron II samples from Ashkelon and the Middle Bronze Age Sidonians for good measure (though the latter are better described as Canaanites). Here's the distance of the Irish average to those samples using G25:

https://i.imgur.com/s57Nkxv.png

The Irish are literally closer to Armenians, Tatars, Chechens and Finns than to any of the above, so it takes a special kind of genius to believe otherwise. Some of the people who support such outlandish theories like to indulge in linguistic sophistry, if this is the case please read the following post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16762-Strange-similarities-between-Celtic-and-Semitic-languages!&p=556783&viewfull=1#post556783).

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

rms2
09-26-2020, 02:03 AM
I agree, but it's by David Reich.

Oops! I knew that. Brain fart. That's what I get for taking a muscle relaxer and then posting. Pinched nerve resulting in knotted up trapezius muscle as well as pain radiating into the left deltoid and down the left arm. Cervical radiculopathy and cervical spondylosis.

Dieu
09-26-2020, 02:14 AM
Volosovo is interesting but its almost certainly an dead end side branch of L51 if that is what it is. The L51/L151/P312 that has now been confirmed in CW by 2750BC and almost certainly earlier clearly came from the zone where the Yamnaya type mix came into being. P297 seems to have existed along the full length of the Volga from the near-Baltic shore area to Samara in hunter-gatherer times. I suspect a central L23 hunter-gatherer origin point around the Volga-Kama intersection with Z2103 and some L51 heading downstream into the Yamnaya formation zone at a remote time and some L51 heading off upstream up the Volga as part of the Volasovo complex. But in general I think the Volasovo L51 (if that is what it is) was just a branch who went upstream a fishing at some point, which makes sense as they were all hunter-gatherers back then.

I think all L23 descendants are at least part steppes. I think Volosovo samples should be P297, I bet somes are R-Y13200 and maybe some R-V1636 ?

TigerMW
10-23-2020, 07:09 PM
I agree, but it's by David Reich.

Some discredit David Reich. I am pretty sure all his hypotheses are not perfect but it's hard to disagree with his methods and leadership. I found a list of Reich's awards for those who discredit him. Pretty impressive. His peers and constituents seem to feel he is excellent.

Reich’s awards include:
- Nature's 10 (2015) for his contributions to science
- Dan David Prize (2017) for outstanding achievement
- NAS Award in Molecular Biology (2019) for notable discovery in molecular biology
- Wiley Prize in Biomedical Sciences (2019) for breakthrough research
- Darwin-Wallace Medal (2019) for major advances in evolutionary biology

rms2
10-23-2020, 11:51 PM
Awards or no awards, if you read Reich's book you'll see that it makes sense and is evidence based.

We're now just waiting for the rumored papers that will finally decapitate the undead zombie that is the old western European origin story. Then we can burn the corpse and move on.

razyn
10-29-2020, 08:11 PM
I think the new paper about dog domestication may have a smoking gun for our discussion, in illustration C of the figure reproduced in this new thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22105-Origins-and-genetic-legacy-of-prehistoric-dogs

I expect some will only see the smoke, but there's a Corded Ware bullet in there, too.

edit: Here's a blown-up version of the C part of their figure, tweeted by Pontus Skoglund: https://twitter.com/pontus_skoglund/status/1321875110018646017/photo/1

rms2
10-31-2020, 12:35 PM
Good thing I have FTDNA projects to occupy me while I am waiting for news from the ancient R1b-L51 front.

But project development and new results too are painfully slow going.

Years ago I had hoped one of the near future advances in genetics would be rapid turnaround times.

Things might be a little better than they were, but they are certainly not what I hoped for.

MitchellSince1893
11-16-2020, 03:26 AM
Thought there would be some interest here from the latest Eurogenes blog.

Fatyanovo as part of the wider Corded Ware family (Nordqvist and Heyd 2020)

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/

In particular, the map below which states "Transformation of Yamnaya to Corded Ware c. 3000-2900 BC"


https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1rgM3Ia8t5E/X68skad65uI/AAAAAAAAJbE/-3WJJetcWgMEFThXeR0mLscHUoa4klaDQCLcBGAsYHQ/s948/Fatyanovo_Figure_11.jpg

dsm
11-16-2020, 05:37 AM
What could have been happening that fits with the big looping arrow, is that L23 shows good evidence that it emerged around the middle Volga (Samara). Its children Z2103 and L51 also emerged there but we are still looking for the L51 evidence. What we do know is that the group of dominantly (if not all) R1a that contained R1a-Z93, were at the start of the sweeping loop (Sredny Stog - Sth Ukraine - Don/Volga), as recently outlined in the paper re Abashevo culture sweeping into in central Russia. And, at around the same time L51 were trekking to western Europe (from either middle Volga, or central Russia or Kalmykia region (take your pick)). R1a-Z93 started out around Sth Ukraine moving 1st into central Russia but kept going in that looping sweep. There is ample evidence of increased warfare in the regions that arrow goes through and at the time Z93 were 'on their big move'. Warfare followed R1a-Z93 all the way to Nth India.

We have lots of burial evidence that Z2103 went in every other direction away from that sweeping group and particularly from the middle Volga. Some fled over 2000km to the Altai Mtns (as published, from the Volga/Ural region). Others fled down the Volga to Kalmykia and some went to the Carpathian Basin where they appear to have settled on the Hungarian Plains east of the Tisza River. Other Z2103 fled to Anatolia. Yet other Z2103 settled in Khazakstan.

If it turns out that L51 were already in Central Russia just before the big sweep began, then there is the potential for those central Russian L51 to have fled too. We know some went with Z2103 to the Altai mts. But, some could well have travelled very quickly (Volga & Volga-Oka rivers) to west Central Russia to get away from the warlike R1a-Z93 that swept through their former safe haven. We don't see compelling evidence that L51 went to Kalmykia with Z2103.

Am inclined to view the initial statement of where 'Yamnaya' migration starts, when the evidence available says it was R1a tribes particularly R1a-Z93 who started that sweep. If we accept their 'simplistic' and very generalised label, it says that there has to have been R1a-Z93, R1b-Z2103, R1b-L51 and I2 bundled up in that 'Yamnaya ' label and that they parted ways in Belarus or Poland. IMHO, that never happened this way. At the moment the evidence I see is L51 fleeing from R1a-Z93. So, Just when and why L51 (as L151) emerged in the Russia/Poland area needs better analysis.

All very interesting as they say, only time may tell.

VladimirTaraskin
11-16-2020, 08:02 AM
What could have been happening that fits with the big looping arrow, is that L23 shows good evidence that it emerged around the middle Volga (Samara). Its children Z2103 and L51 also emerged there but we are still looking for the L51 evidence. What we do know is that the group of dominantly (if not all) R1a that contained R1a-Z93, were at the start of the sweeping loop (Sredny Stog - Sth Ukraine - Don/Volga), as recently outlined in the paper re Abashevo culture sweeping into in central Russia. And, at around the same time L51 were trekking to western Europe (from either middle Volga, or central Russia or Kalmykia region (take your pick)). R1a-Z93 started out around Sth Ukraine moving 1st into central Russia but kept going in that looping sweep. There is ample evidence of increased warfare in the regions that arrow goes through and at the time Z93 were 'on their big move'. Warfare followed R1a-Z93 all the way to Nth India.

We have lots of burial evidence that Z2103 went in every other direction away from that sweeping group and particularly from the middle Volga. Some fled over 2000km to the Altai Mtns (as published, from the Volga/Ural region). Others fled down the Volga to Kalmykia and some went to the Carpathian Basin where they appear to have settled on the Hungarian Plains east of the Tisza River. Other Z2103 fled to Anatolia. Yet other Z2103 settled in Khazakstan.

If it turns out that L51 were already in Central Russia just before the big sweep began, then there is the potential for those central Russian L51 to have fled too. We know some went with Z2103 to the Altai mts. But, some could well have travelled very quickly (Volga & Volga-Oka rivers) to west Central Russia to get away from the warlike R1a-Z93 that swept through their former safe haven. We don't see compelling evidence that L51 went to Kalmykia with Z2103.

All very interesting as they say, only time may tell.

Most likely R1a-M417 at 3500 BCE lived West of the don. This is the Konstantinovka culture or it is also called the Eastern Sredniy Stog. And the part of the arrow on the map that goes from the Volga to the don is R1b-L23. They moved the M417 from the scene. At this time, traces of fires in the settlements of the Konstantinovka culture are traced archaeologically, and traces of this population lead to the North and Northwest. The movement of R1b-L23 from the lower Volga to the West is probably caused by aridization, which began in the area of 4200 BCE.

Coldmountains
11-16-2020, 01:14 PM
What could have been happening that fits with the big looping arrow, is that L23 shows good evidence that it emerged around the middle Volga (Samara). Its children Z2103 and L51 also emerged there but we are still looking for the L51 evidence. What we do know is that the group of dominantly (if not all) R1a that contained R1a-Z93, were at the start of the sweeping loop (Sredny Stog - Sth Ukraine - Don/Volga), as recently outlined in the paper re Abashevo culture sweeping into in central Russia. And, at around the same time L51 were trekking to western Europe (from either middle Volga, or central Russia or Kalmykia region (take your pick)). R1a-Z93 started out around Sth Ukraine moving 1st into central Russia but kept going in that looping sweep. There is ample evidence of increased warfare in the regions that arrow goes through and at the time Z93 were 'on their big move'. Warfare followed R1a-Z93 all the way to Nth India.

We have lots of burial evidence that Z2103 went in every other direction away from that sweeping group and particularly from the middle Volga. Some fled over 2000km to the Altai Mtns (as published, from the Volga/Ural region). Others fled down the Volga to Kalmykia and some went to the Carpathian Basin where they appear to have settled on the Hungarian Plains east of the Tisza River. Other Z2103 fled to Anatolia. Yet other Z2103 settled in Khazakstan.

If it turns out that L51 were already in Central Russia just before the big sweep began, then there is the potential for those central Russian L51 to have fled too. We know some went with Z2103 to the Altai mts. But, some could well have travelled very quickly (Volga & Volga-Oka rivers) to west Central Russia to get away from the warlike R1a-Z93 that swept through their former safe haven. We don't see compelling evidence that L51 went to Kalmykia with Z2103.

Am inclined to view the initial statement of where 'Yamnaya' migration starts, when the evidence available says it was R1a tribes particularly R1a-Z93 who started that sweep. If we accept their 'simplistic' and very generalised label, it says that there has to have been R1a-Z93, R1b-Z2103, R1b-L51 and I2 bundled up in that 'Yamnaya ' label and that they parted ways in Belarus or Poland. IMHO, that never happened this way. At the moment the evidence I see is L51 fleeing from R1a-Z93. So, Just when and why L51 (as L151) emerged in the Russia/Poland area needs better analysis.

All very interesting as they say, only time may tell.

R1a-Z93 came from the southwest and a "fleeing L51 group" unlikely would move in the same direction via the same routes from where the "aggressive" immigrants came from. Even when the L51 in Pre-Fatyanovo or Fatyanovo is confirmed it is unlikely to be directly ancestral to L51 in West Europe. Rather some basal L51 was present in different late PIE cultures and only in Central/West Europe it exploded in numbers thanks to lucky circumstances, better ressources and founder effects.

rms2
11-16-2020, 01:48 PM
We need those mysterious papers long rumored to be on the way. You know, the one on Single Grave Corded Ware in the Netherlands, and the one (or several) on the Eneolithic steppe.

However many of them there are, they are rumored to have newly discovered ancient R1b-L51 in them.

Then all the maps and arrows can either be vindicated or revised.

CopperAxe
11-16-2020, 03:27 PM
We need those mysterious papers long rumored to be on the way. You know, the one on Single Grave Corded Ware in the Netherlands, and the one (or several) on the Eneolithic steppe.

However many of them there are, they are rumored to have newly discovered ancient R1b-L51 in them.

Then all the maps and arrows can either be vindicated or revised.

I think I'm slowly going insane waiting for those samples ffs.

etrusco
11-16-2020, 04:26 PM
I think I'm slowly going insane waiting for those samples ffs.

There is no need to grow insane waiting for somethging that has ......already arrived. There is the Fatyanovo paper that has made clear all the steps. The following theories have been confirmed:

1) Corded Ware is from ( western) Yamnaya. Basically CWC is nothing less and nothing more than Yamnaya in northern Europe. So the role of Yamnaya in spreading all the IE languages (save Anatolian ones )is confirmed. Yamnaya so is not overrated.

2) We have R1b Z103 in Sredni Stog and this is the real deal because it confirms what I have long thought : the chain of transmission between:
Dneper- Donets foragers> Skelya culture> Sredni Stog> Yamnaya.

The sudden spread of R1b Z103 folks on the steppe likely made R1b L51 and R1a M417 think of finding "safer grounds" further to the west/north west or ( this is the case of the Indo Aryans) to the north east ( toward the Moscow region).

you can check the maps on Eurogenes

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/11/fatyanovo-as-part-of-wider-corded-ware.html

rms2
11-16-2020, 05:25 PM
There is no need to grow insane waiting for somethging that has ......already arrived . . .

No offense, but what we are waiting for has in no way "already arrived".

At least two and possibly more papers are supposed to be in the pipeline, and they aren't supposed to be more of the same old same old.

Leaks concerning these papers started appearing in September of 2019. At least one of them is supposed to be about Single Grave Corded Ware in the Netherlands, and the scuttlebutt has it that a number of the CW skeletons were R1b-L51. We know now that won't be all that startling, since we have already seen L51 in very early Corded Ware in Switzerland (Fürtwängler et al 2020).

There is also supposed to be at least one big paper, and possibly more, on the Eneolithic steppe, and that one or more is/are also supposed to feature ancient R1b-L51 among steppe pastoralists.

The bloodless and genome-less archaeological paper you are talking about has indeed arrived. That and a fresh My Pillow will get you the best sleep of your life.

rms2
11-16-2020, 05:36 PM
. . .

There is also supposed to be at least one big paper, and possibly more, on the Eneolithic steppe, and that one or more is/are also supposed to feature ancient R1b-L51 among steppe pastoralists.

. . .

That shouldn't be all that shocking either, since the recent discovery of an R1b-L52 (P310) among Afanasievo remains in Mongolia (Wang et al 2020).

VladimirTaraskin
11-16-2020, 05:40 PM
There is no need to grow insane waiting for somethging that has ......already arrived. There is the Fatyanovo paper that has made clear all the steps. The following theories have been confirmed:

1) Corded Ware is from ( western) Yamnaya. Basically CWC is nothing less and nothing more than Yamnaya in northern Europe. So the role of Yamnaya in spreading all the IE languages (save Anatolian ones )is confirmed. Yamnaya so is not overrated.

2) We have R1b Z103 in Sredni Stog and this is the real deal because it confirms what I have long thought : the chain of transmission between:
Dneper- Donets foragers> Skelya culture> Sredni Stog> Yamnaya.

The sudden spread of R1b Z103 folks on the steppe likely made R1b L51 and R1a M417 think of finding "safer grounds" further to the west/north west or ( this is the case of the Indo Aryans) to the north east ( toward the Moscow region).

you can check the maps on Eurogenes

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/11/fatyanovo-as-part-of-wider-corded-ware.html

You need to look at the dates. If we are talking about the Z2103, then this is later than 4000 BCE. As far as I know, there were no significant migrations from the Dnieper to the Volga. During this period, there was a migration of Dereevka to the upper don in the forest-steppe, but this is clearly not Z2103, not their climate zone. The second argument is afanasievo. If Z2103 were from the Dnieper, the afanasievo admixture would correspond to the ymnaya Ukraina admixture, but this is also not the case. Ideally, the z2103 migration corresponds to the Repino culture migration, 4000-3500 BCE. This migration came to Ukraine about 3700 BCE.

etrusco
11-16-2020, 05:52 PM
You need to look at the dates. If we are talking about the Z2103, then this is later than 4000 BCE. As far as I know, there were no significant migrations from the Dnieper to the Volga. During this period, there was a migration of Dereevka to the upper don in the forest-steppe, but this is clearly not Z2103, not their climate zone. The second argument is afanasievo. If Z2103 were from the Dnieper, the afanasievo admixture would correspond to the ymnaya Ukraina admixture, but this is also not the case. Ideally, the z2103 migration corresponds to the Repino culture migration, 4000-3500 BCE. This migration came to Ukraine about 3700 BCE.

no Sredni Stog is quite big a culture. There is no need to equate SS only with the Dneper region. It reaches all the way to the lower Don ( eastern Sredni Stog) The Don region is where Repin culture is from. So R1b Z103 from Eastern Sredni Stog makes a lot of sense. As per Anthony Repin is just another daughter culture of SS.

CopperAxe
11-16-2020, 06:28 PM
No offense, but what we are waiting for has in no way "already arrived".

At least two and possibly more papers are supposed to be in the pipeline, and they aren't supposed to be more of the same old same old.

Leaks concerning these papers started appearing in September of 2019. At least one of them is supposed to be about Single Grave Corded Ware in the Netherlands, and the scuttlebutt has it that a number of the CW skeletons were R1b-L51. We know now that won't be all that startling, since we have already seen L51 in very early Corded Ware in Switzerland (Fürtwängler et al 2020).

There is also supposed to be at least one big paper, and possibly more, on the Eneolithic steppe, and that one or more is/are also supposed to feature ancient R1b-L51 among steppe pastoralists.

The bloodless and genome-less archaeological paper you are talking about has indeed arrived. That and a fresh My Pillow will get you the best sleep of your life.

You took the words right out of my mouth here hahaha

VladimirTaraskin
11-16-2020, 06:31 PM
no Sredni Stog is quite big a culture. There is no need to equate SS only with the Dneper region. It reaches all the way to the lower Don ( eastern Sredni Stog) The Don region is where Repin culture is from. So R1b Z103 from Eastern Sredni Stog makes a lot of sense. As per Anthony Repin is just another daughter culture of SS.


I agree. The left Bank of the lower don is somewhere in the area of the Kum-Manych basin. Approximately in this area Repino's homeland is placed about 4000 BCE. At about the same time, the tribes of the steppe Maykop approach the Kum-Manych basin from the South. Who knows, maybe this triggered the collapse of L23 and the subsequent migration.

dsm
11-16-2020, 09:29 PM
R1a-Z93 came from the southwest and a "fleeing L51 group" unlikely would move in the same direction via the same routes from where the "aggressive" immigrants came from. Even when the L51 in Pre-Fatyanovo or Fatyanovo is confirmed it is unlikely to be directly ancestral to L51 in West Europe. Rather some basal L51 was present in different late PIE cultures and only in Central/West Europe it exploded in numbers thanks to lucky circumstances, better ressources and founder effects.

Good to read the various POVs on this. For myself, am satisfied that L151 STR variance has in the past, painted a very strong picture of L151 spending longer in Baltic Russia (incl what is now Belarus/Poland) than in any other place in Europe. The 2nd longest L151 STR variance is Baltic Nth sea then Bohemia Austria then the Atlantic coast.

But, what does surprise me is that so many people don't see the obvious pathway between the middle Volga and what is today St Petersburg.

Around 7,500 ybp, there were R1b in the Narva Culture (R1b-L297) in Latvia while a close DNA clade match of R1b-L278 from that same era was in Samara (Khvalynsk). An obvious reason would could & should show that travelling up and down the Volga to the Baltic was being done 1000s of years ago. Getting from the area around lower Novgorod on the Volga/Oka junction (actually Veliky Novgorod), to the Baltic, would be a comparatively easy journey than the one undertaken by the L51 & Z2103 who travelled over 2,000kms in a very short time from Volga-Ural to the Altai mts (Afanasievo). That Afanasievo was a long fast trek and one might well ask why they chose to do it (R1a-Z93 pressure ?). Going up the Volga would have been simpler but if it were accepted that just at that era, going up the Volga represented big risks due to hostile tribes controlling the waterways, then fleeing the other way over mountains to the Altai region might be more appealing. Heading down the Volga to Kalmykia was also another route taken by a big tribe with Z2103 + I2 (note this migration from Volga-Ural to Kalmykia currently lacks any evidence of L51 burials).

Over many 1000s of years the direct waterway between the middle Volga and the Baltic has been there and as mentioned appears to offer explanations as to how Baltic Narva & Volga-Ural Kvalynsk shared close R1b DNA burials 7,500 ybp. The Vikings later used both the Volga and Dnieper waterways extensively.

razyn
11-16-2020, 10:15 PM
I have a problem with the map detail, on that new Nordqvist and Heyd paper, that shows "Yamnaya" transforming more rapidly than one might expect (in a century) and later than one might expect, to produce the migratory result we have already seen on, or just under, the ground. It seems to me that the more northern route into western Europe (largely L51 and Corded Ware, the subject of this thread) needs to have differentiated pretty completely from the Z2103 guys -- who migrated earlier, took a more southern route, and ended up speaking pretty distinct branches of IE (Greek, Albanian), in a more Mediterranean climate.

And that pattern, if it's not just a reflection of who got dug up and sequenced first, has made me suspect for some time that the guys cultivating grapes were richer in Z2103, and the cowboys were more L51. Either might have to migrate because of aridity; but not necessarily at the same time, in the same direction, or on the same waters.

41228

Coldmountains
11-16-2020, 10:50 PM
Good to read the various POVs on this. For myself, am satisfied that L151 STR variance has in the past, painted a very strong picture of L151 spending longer in Baltic Russia (incl what is now Belarus/Poland) than in any other place in Europe. The 2nd longest L151 STR variance is Baltic Nth sea then Bohemia Austria then the Atlantic coast. What does surprise me is that so many people don't see the obvious pathway between the middle Volga and what is today St Petersburg.

Around 7,500 ybp, there were R1b in the Narva Culture (R1b-L297) in Latvia while a close DNA clade match of R1b-L278 from that same era was in Samara (Khvalynsk). An obvious reason would could & should show that travelling up and down the Volga to the Baltic was being done 1000s of years ago. Getting from the area around lower Novgorod on the Volga/Oka junction (actually Veliky Novgorod), to the Baltic, would be a comparatively easy journey than the one undertaken by the L51 & Z2103 who travelled over 2,000kms in a very short time from Volga-Ural to the Altai mts (Afanasievo). That Afanasievo was a long fast trek and one might well ask why they chose to do it (R1a-Z93 pressure ?). Going up the Volga would have been simpler but if it were accepted that just at that era, going up the Volga represented big risks due to hostile tribes controlling the waterways, then fleeing the other way over mountains to the Altai region might be more appealing. Heading down the Volga to Kalmykia was also another route taken by a big tribe with Z2103 + I2 (note this migration from Volga-Ural to Kalmykia currently lacks any evidence of L51 burials).

Over many 1000s of years the direct waterway between the middle Volga and the Baltic has been there and as mentioned appears to offer explanations as to how Baltic Narva & Volga-Ural Kvalynsk shared close R1b DNA burials 7,500 ybp. The Vikings later used both the Volga and Dnieper waterways extensively.

The Volga-Ural region is not that important for the formation of PIEs like many assumed some years ago. Khvalynsk is simply to eastern (WSHG substrate, lack of any EEF ancestry) and northern (too low CHG) to be ancestral to CWC, Afanasievo and Bell Beakers. Rather Sredny Stog looks now like one of the first PIEs cultures and rather around the Don PIEs and their genetic profile formed. So most of L51 arrived in West Europe from Sredny Stog likely via a Steppe ->West Ukrainian/Polish->Bohemian route. Fatyanovo based on the preprint is pretty much ruled out for now as origin of Bell Beaker L51. Pre-Fatyanovo groups in Russia maybe had R1b-L51 from some earlier Sredny Stog waves, which were absorbed by Volosovo HGs, but it does not seem that they had a long lasting impact in the region because Volosovo continued to exist as HGs untill Fatyanovo replaced them. Volosovo HGs even with L51 are unlikely ancestral to pastoralist CWC and Bell Beaker groups rich in R1b-L51.

Afanasievo and his L51 is from Sredny Stog and unlikely was pushed out by Z93. The migration of Proto-Afanasievo happened before Z93 expanded into Central Russia (2500-3000 B.C) and is likely linked to other socio-political dynamics, which we dont understand so far.

dsm
11-17-2020, 12:46 AM
Afanasievo and his L51 is from Sredny Stog and unlikely was pushed out by Z93. The migration of Proto-Afanasievo happened before Z93 expanded into Central Russia (2500-3000 B.C) and is likely linked to other socio-political dynamics, which we dont understand so far.

The problem I have with this view of L51 is that the current oldest burials (that I have on file) of L23 & Z2103 are from Samara in the middle-Volga. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that this is L23's place of origin unless and until older L23 burials are found elsewhere (such as the Caucusus), and assuming this is the current Samara home of L23, one should expect both Z2103 and L51 would have emerged close by. As we know (based on my last check) the oldest known Z2103 is also Samara. Also the L51 in Afanasievo is actually L52 (P310) which is more recent. The publishers of the Afanasievo paper state clearly they saw the Z2103 + L51 as coming from Volga-Ural. I agree 100%. If you believe they actually migrated from Dnieper Valley or from the Don-Volga junction, then add 500 kms on to that fantastic trek by the Afanasievo and hopefully you can point to a paper that supports that. The on-going R1a Z93 onslaught starting in Sth Ukraine, went up into and thru central Russia and then on down the Volga and from the Volga-Kama junction, through there into Khazakstan, Iran and India. If I were Z2103 or L51 and the R1a-Z93 were steadily heading my way (Volga-Ural area), I would do exactly what the Afanasievo people did. Flee fast and far. It is just to fantastical to believe they did that trek over 1000s of kms just for a look-see. The fact that so many Z2103 later settled closer to middle Volga but further south and south-east (even to Anatolia) says that going just a bit south got well out of the way of the R1a-Z93 horde.

ADW_1981
11-17-2020, 01:24 AM
Afanasievo and his L51 is from Sredny Stog and unlikely was pushed out by Z93. The migration of Proto-Afanasievo happened before Z93 expanded into Central Russia (2500-3000 B.C) and is likely linked to other socio-political dynamics, which we dont understand so far.

He's a long way from home, and no doubt faced many pressures from local and eastern pressures. Far reaching colonies can easily die out without support.

Coldmountains
11-17-2020, 08:14 AM
The problem I have with this view of L51 is that the current oldest burials (that I have on file) of L23 & Z2103 are from Samara in the middle-Volga. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that this is L23's place of origin unless and until older L23 burials are found elsewhere (such as the Caucusus), and assuming this is the current Samara home of L23, one should expect both Z2103 and L51 would have emerged close by. As we know (based on my last check) the oldest known Z2103 is also Samara. Also the L51 in Afanasievo is actually L52 (P310) which is more recent. The publishers of the Afanasievo paper state clearly they saw the Z2103 + L51 as coming from Volga-Ural. I agree 100%. If you believe they actually migrated from Dnieper Valley or from the Don-Volga junction, then add 500 kms on to that fantastic trek by the Afanasievo and hopefully you can point to a paper that supports that. The on-going R1a Z93 onslaught starting in Sth Ukraine, went up into and thru central Russia and then on down the Volga and from the Volga-Kama junction, through there into Khazakstan, Iran and India. If I were Z2103 or L51 and the R1a-Z93 were steadily heading my way (Volga-Ural area), I would do exactly what the Afanasievo people did. Flee fast and far. It is just to fantastical to believe they did that trek over 1000s of kms just for a look-see. The fact that so many Z2103 later settled closer to middle Volga but further south and south-east (even to Anatolia) says that going just a bit south got well out of the way of the R1a-Z93 horde.

There are so far no studies or even rumours about Z2103 or L23 in the Volga region significantly predating Yamnaya. Earlier cultures like Khvalynsk are unlikely ancestral to PIEs because the lack of even minor EEF, WSHG substrate and too high EHG/too low CHG. Maybe the ancestor of Sredny Stog L23 came from some very long time from this region but Yamnaya/Afanasievo definetly came from the southwest and replaced whatever was in the Volga-Ural region before them.

The movements of Yamnaya and Afanasievo have unlikely anything to do with R1a-Z93 hordes "slaughtering" them. At first R1a-Z93 replaced Yamnaya-related R1b-dominated groups much much later (after 2500 B.C) and only after Fatyanovo when they started with Abashevo/Sintashta/Srubnaya to occupy more southern and eastern steppe regions untill that Z93 played no important role in the steppes between the Don and Ural. It was a mainly forest/forest-steppe line. Afanasievo not came from Central Russia and so far Fatyanovo is the first culture where the agro-pastroalist cultural package is documented in the forest/forest-steppes of Central Russia. Rather Afanasievo came from the Don-Volga region and the most eastern fringes of Sredny Stog tribes. Here Z93 tribes played no important role untill 2500 B.C and lacked socio-political power to cause any mass migration of "fleeing R1b-Z2103" tribes.

dsm
11-17-2020, 09:31 AM
There are so far no studies or even rumours about Z2103 or L23 in the Volga region significantly predating Yamnaya. Earlier cultures like Khvalynsk are unlikely ancestral to PIEs because the lack of even minor EEF, WSHG substrate and too high EHG/too low CHG. Maybe the ancestor of Sredny Stog L23 came from some very long time from this region but Yamnaya/Afanasievo definetly came from the southwest and replaced whatever was in the Volga-Ural region before them.

The movements of Yamnaya and Afanasievo have unlikely anything to do with R1a-Z93 hordes "slaughtering" them. At first R1a-Z93 replaced Yamnaya-related R1b-dominated groups much much later (after 2500 B.C) and only after Fatyanovo when they started with Abashevo/Sintashta/Srubnaya to occupy more southern and eastern steppe regions untill that Z93 played no important role in the steppes between the Don and Ural. It was a mainly forest/forest-steppe line. Afanasievo not came from Central Russia and so far Fatyanovo is the first culture where the agro-pastroalist cultural package is documented in the forest/forest-steppes of Central Russia. Rather Afanasievo came from the Don-Volga region and the most eastern fringes of Sredny Stog tribes. Here Z93 tribes played no important role untill 2500 B.C and lacked socio-political power to cause any mass migration of "fleeing R1b-Z2103" tribes.

Thanks for your perspective.

I fear though there is some exaggeration re the way you use the word 'slaughter', it is perfectly reasonable to argue that a tribal group such as dominated by R1a-Z93, could have and did carve a path through many regions between central Russia and Northern India. IIRC, the Scythians are dominantly R1a-Z93.

I disagree that Abanasievo with Z2103/L52/I2 came from the don-volga junction particularly because the study that analysed them and published this year made the case that they migrated from Volga-Ural. To me, you are saying they got it wrong. I think they got it right.

I believe there have been three very influential regions that relate to Sredny Stog and Yamnaya. One is the Don-Volga junction area, another is the Dnieper River Valley, and third is the area between Kazan and Samara in the middle Volga. This area has been very influential on many cultures. The problem we easily get into is defining who we are talking about when we say Sredny Stog or Yamnaya. Both have become very broad terms that get stretched over multiple different groups. As best I can see, Sredny Stog are dominantly (very) R1a. But someone might argue that saying this is narrowing down too much who Sredny Stog were. The same applies to Yamnaya. Is it a horizon (some believe so) or does Yamnaya as a culture really only mean Z2103 + I2. If Yamnaya includes L51, where *and when* did that happen ?.

As always, it is very helpful to explore different views as it helps us hone our own. Debating these views is good.

rms2
11-21-2020, 08:20 PM
I wish there were more books in English on Corded Ware. You know, books, in the old fashioned physical sense, with nice illustrations, paper pages, and print that I can highlight and underline, and in whose margins I can write notes.

rms2
11-21-2020, 10:56 PM
Here's a map I made showing all the Corded Ware R1b I currently know about and the ballpark locations of the finds.

If you know of any more I left out, please let me know.

41319

rms2
11-22-2020, 12:44 AM
Re the origin of Kurgan Bell Beaker, which I believe is to be found in Single Grave Corded Ware, recall that at least some of British Beaker is very much like Corded Ware in its autosomal DNA. Also recall that isotopic testing of the dental enamel of the Amesbury Archer revealed that he was probably born and raised in Alpine Central Europe, possibly in Switzerland or southern Germany. In Marc Heise's paper, "Heads North or East? A Re-Examination of Beaker Burials in Britain", on pages 225-226, there is mention of a pin buried with the Amesbury Archer that is of a type found in Swiss Corded Ware.

British Beaker is about 300-500 years later than Swiss Corded Ware.

rms2
11-22-2020, 01:06 PM
Thought there would be some interest here from the latest Eurogenes blog.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/

In particular, the map below which states "Transformation of Yamnaya to Corded Ware c. 3000-2900 BC"


https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1rgM3Ia8t5E/X68skad65uI/AAAAAAAAJbE/-3WJJetcWgMEFThXeR0mLscHUoa4klaDQCLcBGAsYHQ/s948/Fatyanovo_Figure_11.jpg

Too bad it costs $25 to be able to read that paper by Nordqvist and Heyd.

If it had some earth shattering, newly recovered ancient Y-DNA results in it, I would shell out the 25 bucks, but otherwise I'm too cheap to spend that much to read an archaeological paper.

If Jean were still around, she would have it in her online library by now.

I'm not familiar with Nordqvist, but Heyd is pretty sharp. It would be interesting to find out why he seems to think Corded Ware was derived from Yamnaya.

Coldmountains
11-22-2020, 01:16 PM
Too bad it costs $25 to be able to read that paper by Nordqvist and Heyd.

If it had some earth shattering, newly recovered ancient Y-DNA results in it, I would shell out the 25 bucks, but otherwise I'm too cheap to spend that much to read an archaeological paper.

If Jean were still around, she would have it in her online library by now.

I'm not familiar with Nordqvist, but Heyd is pretty sharp. It would be interesting to find out why he seems to think Corded Ware was derived from Yamnaya.

There is not really something new in this paper, what was not already discussed here. But it is probably the first non-genetic paper, which directly argues for Fatyanovo being ancestral to later Sintashta/Andronovo, but they also write that Fatyanovo was "Pre-Balto-Slavic-Germanic" despite already being aware of the preprint with Fatyanovo dna results.

Neverthless it is a good summarization of current research about Fatyanovo.

rms2
11-22-2020, 02:00 PM
. . .

I'm not familiar with Nordqvist, but Heyd is pretty sharp. It would be interesting to find out why he seems to think Corded Ware was derived from Yamnaya.

Maybe some of what Anthony had to say in his The Horse The Wheel and Language can shed some light on the thinking of Nordqvist and Heyd, at least until we can actually read their paper for ourselves.

In the section of Chapter 14 entitled, "The Roots of the Oldest Western Indo-European Branches", on page 344, Anthony has this to say:



These constraints oblige us to turn our attention to the region just to the west of the early Yamnaya territory, or west of the South Bug River valley, beginning about 3300 BCE. On this frontier we can identify three archaeological cases of cross-cultural contact in which people from the western Pontic steppes established long-term relationships with people outside the steppe zone to their west during the Early Bronze Age, 3300-2800 BCE.

Anthony goes on to identify the first case as the movement of Usatovo people into the upper Dniester and Prut valleys and into contact with Tripolye farmers.

The second case is the very famous movement of Yamnaya into the Lower Danube valley and then up into the Carpathian Basin.

Here's where things get interesting.



In the third case, the Yamnaya horizon expanded toward the border with the Corded Ware horizon on the headwaters of the Dniester in far northwestern Ukraine. In some places it appears there was no integration at all, but on the east flank of this contact zone, near the middle Dnieper, a hybrid border culture emerged.

Of course, that sounds as if Anthony is saying Corded Ware already existed before this contact and blending with Yamnaya occurred, but keep it in mind anyway.

Anthony says this on page 360:



If I had to hazard a guess I would say that this was how the Proto-Indo-European dialects that would ultimately form the root of Pre-Germanic first became established in central Europe: they spread up the Dniester from the Usatovo culture through a nested series of patrons and clients, and eventually were spoken in some of the late TRB communities between the Dniester and the Vistula. These late TRB communities later evolved into early Corded Ware communities, and it was the Corded Ware horizon (see below) that provided the medium through which the Pre-Germanic dialects spread over a wider area.

Ignore the concern with Pre-Germanic and focus on the formation of Corded Ware. Recall too that Anthony's book was published in 2007. At that time even he was a little reluctant to place too much emphasis on migration, thus all the stuff about "a nested series of patrons and clients," i.e., the Domino Theory of the spread of Indo-European.

Now we know there was a massive migration of young male warriors from the steppe who were snatching Neolithic women from the nest and sometimes slaughtering all the other birds.

Anyway, perhaps Nordqvist and Heyd see this movement of Yamnaya into the NW Ukrainian contact zone as the ultimate source of Corded Ware, perhaps in a blending of Yamnaya males and TRB and GAC females. I don't know; I'm just guessing.

Of course, we're all currently locked into the orthodoxy that says that all of Yamnaya was monolithically R1b-Z2103 (with a sprinkling of I2a) and completely devoid of R1b-L51, despite the fact that R1b-L51, like R1b-Z2103, is an R1b-L23 subclade. Another aspect of the Z2103 orthodoxy maintains that Yamnaya had no R1a in it at all either.

But what if that orthodoxy is mistaken?

What if NW Ukraine was home to some tribes of the Yamnaya Horizon in which the dominant Y-DNA lines were R1b-L51 and R1a-M417?

I'm not saying that's the case. I'm just trying to understand what might be the reasons behind what Nordqvist and Heyd are saying about the transformation of Yamnaya into Corded Ware.

Notice that their map does not bring the transformational Yamnayans up through the Danube valley and the Carpathian Basin. It has them going around the north side of the Carpathians.

Something beyond the orthodoxy happened after all. Pretty plainly Europe was not Indo-Europeanized by tribes that were R1b-Z2103. It was tribes that were R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 that Indo-Europeanized most of Europe west of the steppe.

davit
11-22-2020, 02:37 PM
Maybe some of what Anthony had to say in his The Horse The Wheel and Language can shed some light on the thinking of Nordqvist and Heyd, at least until we can actually read their paper for ourselves.

In the section of Chapter 14 entitled, "The Roots of the Oldest Western Indo-European Branches", on page 344, Anthony has this to say:



Anthony goes on to identify the first case as the movement of Usatovo people into the upper Dniester and Prut valleys and into contact with Tripolye farmers.

The second case is the very famous movement of Yamnaya into the Lower Danube valley and then up into the Carpathian Basin.

Here's where things get interesting.



Of course, that sounds as if Anthony is saying Corded Ware already existed before this contact and blending with Yamnaya occurred, but keep it in mind anyway.

Anthony says this on page 360:



Ignore the concern with Pre-Germanic and focus on the formation of Corded Ware. Recall too that Anthony's book was published in 2007. At that time even he was a little reluctant to place too much emphasis on migration, thus all the stuff about "a nested series of patrons and clients," i.e., the Domino Theory of the spread of Indo-European.

Now we know there was a massive migration of young male warriors from the steppe who were snatching Neolithic women from the nest and sometimes slaughtering all the other birds.

Anyway, perhaps Nordqvist and Heyd see this movement of Yamnaya into the NW Ukrainian contact zone as the ultimate source of Corded Ware, perhaps in a blending of Yamnaya males and TRB and GAC females. I don't know; I'm just guessing.

Of course, we're all currently locked into the orthodoxy that says that all of Yamnaya was monolithically R1b-Z2103 (with a sprinkling of I2a) and completely devoid of R1b-L51, despite the fact that R1b-L51, like R1b-Z2103, is an R1b-L23 subclade. Another aspect of the Z2103 orthodoxy maintains that Yamnaya had no R1a in it at all either.

But what if that orthodoxy is mistaken?

What if NW Ukraine was home to some tribes of the Yamnaya Horizon in which the dominant Y-DNA lines were R1b-L51 and R1a-M417?

I'm not saying that's the case. I'm just trying to understand what might be the reasons behind what Nordqvist and Heyd are saying about the transformation of Yamnaya into Corded Ware.

Notice that their map does not bring the transformational Yamnayans up through the Danube valley and the Carpathian Basin. It has them going around the north side of the Carpathians.

Something beyond the orthodoxy happened after all. Pretty plainly Europe was not Indo-Europeanized by tribes that were R1b-Z2103. It was tribes that were R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 that Indo-Europeanized most of Europe west of the steppe.

Agree entirely. Given the R1a-Z93 in Usatovo I am not buying that the western steppes were only Z2103. I am sure R1a and L51 were present there.

rms2
11-22-2020, 02:42 PM
Agree entirely. Given the R1a-Z93 in Usatovo I am not buying that the western steppes were only Z2103. I am sure R1a and L51 were present there.

Thanks. I also agree with what you said above.

I remember the several years in which Corded Ware looked as if it were monolithically R1a-M417, too. That became a kind of R1a orthodoxy about Corded Ware.

Now R1b-L51 is popping up frequently in Corded Ware, some of it pretty damned old: far too old to represent leakage from Beaker (which would have been R1b-P312 anyway).

R.Rocca
11-22-2020, 03:01 PM
What if NW Ukraine was home to some tribes of the Yamnaya Horizon in which the dominant Y-DNA lines were R1b-L51 and R1a-M417?

I don't know the answer, but Linderholm's Corded Ware paper did show something that I feel has been underplayed or downright overlooked:

1. Małopolska Upland: The R1a samples are all from this area and the strontium isotope signatures of the three male individuals show they are all locals.

2. Rzeszów Foothills and the Sokal Ridge: This is the area that borders NW Ukraine. The males were all L51 samples and, unlike the R1a samples from the upland, the majority of the L51 samples are non-locals whos isotope data seems to point towards areas in the Ukraine as per the paper. This also correlates well with archaeological similarities with Middle Dnieper Culture.

While it is clear that the L51 in those parts are a brother clade to L11, it is intriguing to think this area was an early branching point for L11 as well and that the ties could well have been with the NW Ukraine.

razyn
11-22-2020, 04:05 PM
I don't know the answer, but Linderholm's Corded Ware paper did show something that I feel has been underplayed or downright overlooked:

1. Małopolska Upland: The R1a samples are all from this area and the strontium isotope signatures of the three male individuals show they are all locals.

2. Rzeszów Foothills and the Sokal Ridge: This is the area that borders NW Ukraine. The males were all L51 samples and, unlike the R1a samples from the upland, the majority of the L51 samples are non-locals whos isotope data seems to point towards areas in the Ukraine as per the paper. This also correlates well with archaeological similarities with Middle Dnieper Culture.

While it is clear that the L51 in those parts are a brother clade to L11, it is intriguing to think this area was an early branching point for L11 as well and that the ties could well have been with the NW Ukraine.

I highlighted your reference to the ridge along which many of those R1b-L51 burials were found. Back in May I tried (with little success) to advocate devoting more attention to ridge lines (such as the Sokal one), as logical pathways for the migration of people with herds of domesticated ruminants. In case y'all missed that advocacy, it was here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20310-L51-into-Europe-West-of-the-Steppe-Via-Corded-Ware&p=667181&viewfull=1#post667181

Coldmountains
11-22-2020, 04:10 PM
Agree entirely. Given the R1a-Z93 in Usatovo I am not buying that the western steppes were only Z2103. I am sure R1a and L51 were present there.

Most weirdly the Romania_BA sample with Z93 dated to 3000-3500 B.C has Maykop admix and is very different from any other CWC samples. He is some kind of exotic mix between something Yamnaya-like and Maykop-like (unlikely a mislabelled Cimmerian or Scythian because he lack Mongol_N admix)

rms2
11-22-2020, 04:31 PM
I highlighted your reference to the ridge along which many of those R1b-L51 burials were found. Back in May I tried (with little success) to advocate devoting more attention to ridge lines (such as the Sokal one), as logical pathways for the migration of people with herds of domesticated ruminants. In case y'all missed that advocacy, it was here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20310-L51-into-Europe-West-of-the-Steppe-Via-Corded-Ware&p=667181&viewfull=1#post667181

As I recall, Corded Ware folks preferred elevated places like ridges for their single grave burials.

davit
11-22-2020, 06:12 PM
Most weirdly the Romania_BA sample with Z93 dated to 3000-3500 B.C has Maykop admix and is very different from any other CWC samples. He is some kind of exotic mix between something Yamnaya-like and Maykop-like (unlikely a mislabelled Cimmerian or Scythian because he lack Mongol_N admix)

How many Usatovo Z93s do we have btw? Is it just the one?

MitchellSince1893
11-22-2020, 06:17 PM
Wish I had something more profound to add, but whether L51/L52 was in Yamnaya and moved northwest from the Black Sea as Heyd and Nordqvist indicate or L51 started near the Ural Volga area as dsm has proposed; it appears this NW Ukraine/SW Belarus/SE Poland area is key.

parasar
11-22-2020, 09:57 PM
Too bad it costs $25 to be able to read that paper by Nordqvist and Heyd.

If it had some earth shattering, newly recovered ancient Y-DNA results in it, I would shell out the 25 bucks, but otherwise I'm too cheap to spend that much to read an archaeological paper.

If Jean were still around, she would have it in her online library by now.

I'm not familiar with Nordqvist, but Heyd is pretty sharp. It would be interesting to find out why he seems to think Corded Ware was derived from Yamnaya.

https://researchportal.helsinki.fi/files/151473532/Nordqvist_Heyd_2020_submittted_ms.pdf

MitchellSince1893
11-23-2020, 02:25 AM
My quotes below from the Fatanovo paper are focused on the CWC origins.

ABSTRACT: The Fatyanovo Culture...immediate roots are to be found in the southern Baltic States, Belarus and northern Ukraine (the Baltic and Middle-Dnepr Corded Ware groups), from where moving people spread the culture further east along the river valleys of these forested flatlands.[/B]...



ORIGINS, EXPANSION AND LEGACY
Presently, the most supported homeland of (proto-)Fatyanovo is located to the west and south-west of its later territory, between southern Latvia and the northern Ukraine...
The presence of a new, genetically different population is attested also in the eastern Baltic region (Saag et al. 2017; Malmström et al. 2019). The latter studies also hint at the background and trajectory of the newcomers, who predominantly yield a low amount of ancestry of the so-called ‘Early Neolithic farmers’, ie the descendants of the Linear
Pottery Culture peoples. However, the Linear Pottery Culture never reached the eastern Baltic region, and even the Globular Amphora Culture, being its last attestation, is only seriously manifested in Lithuania (cf. Piličiauskas 2018). Newcomers must have therefore acquired this component in regions further to the west,


CWC undoubtedly received its formation incentive from the initial westward migrations of Yamnaya populations from the Caspian-Pontic steppe...
So it appears that Fatyanovo originated from a CWC group in the Southern Latvia to northern Ukraine region, but CWC itself originated further to the West where "Early Neolithic Farmers" groups such as GAC resided. The paper says Fatyanovo was in progress in the 2800-2700 BC time frame.

From this source,
http://www.topoi.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/182-704-1-SM.pdf

the currently oldest solid radiocarbon dates18 are favoring the genesis of the Globular Amphora culture in the Kujawy region. Both relative and absolute chronology suggests its existence in that region from about 3400 BC on
Later

Both the oldest and solid 14C dates (3100–2900 calBC) and the cultural contacts to the Middle Neolithic Walternienburger culture are connected to the
bogenstich stage. A series of the younger radiocarbon dates (2900–2700/2600 calBC) derived from inventories with cord ornaments. In addition, the grave of Weißandt-Gölzau 3 which contained a cord decorated globular amphora together with a corded ware mug, provides a direct evidence for a certain temporal coherence with the Corded Ware culture

Based on the above, if CWC got it's "Early Neolithic Farmer" dna input from GAC, then this would have occured roughly between 3400 BC and 2900 BC. And if GAC originated from Kujaway/Kujavia region of Poland and spread from there, it's interesting that Kujaway is also one of the oldest CWC sites according to this quote from encylopedia.com

The earliest-known carbon-14 dates for Corded Ware come from Kujavia and Małopolska in central and southern Poland. These include a grave at Krusza Zamkowa in Kujavia and a barrow at Średnia in Małopolska dating to the transition from the fourth to the third millennium

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19869-A-mystery-about-P312-s-early-history&p=657883&viewfull=1#post657883

Also Kujavia is at the center of a spoke of CWC network as seen in this old map, with the most connections to other CWC nodes
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d6/84/b5/d684b54622ed7de36ca8d57c62486c42.png


Furholt 2014 "Upending a totality"
https://www.academia.edu/5878366/Upe...8_January_2014

Table 1 has the following chronology for the "Corded Ware phenomenon". If it is accurate then eyeballing the chart:
~2950 BC Bay Coast Culture in Lithuania/East Prussia
~2900 BC Zlota Culture in Southeast Poland
~2900 BC Corded Ware in North Central Poland
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19869-A-mystery-about-P312-s-early-history&p=658336&viewfull=1#post658336

davit
11-23-2020, 02:39 AM
My quotes below from the Fatanovo paper are focused on the CWC origins.





So it appears that Fatyanovo originated from a CWC group in the Southern Latvia to northern Ukraine region, but CWC itself originated further to the West where "Early Neolithic Farmers" groups such as GAC resided. The paper says Fatyanovo was in progress in the 2800-2700 BC time frame.

From this source,
http://www.topoi.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/182-704-1-SM.pdf

Later


Based on the above, if CWC got it's "Early Neolithic Farmer" dna input from GAC, then this would have occured roughly between 3400 BC and 2900 BC. And if GAC originated from Kujaway/Kujavia region of Poland and spread from there, it's interesting that Kujaway is also the oldest CWC site according to this quote from encylopedia.com


https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19869-A-mystery-about-P312-s-early-history&p=657883&viewfull=1#post657883

Also Kujavia is at the center of a spoke of CWC network as seen in this old map
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d6/84/b5/d684b54622ed7de36ca8d57c62486c42.png
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19869-A-mystery-about-P312-s-early-history&p=658336&viewfull=1#post658336

I have my doubts that an R1a-Z93 population originated in the South Baltic but interesting read nonetheless.

rms2
11-23-2020, 11:23 AM
GAC makes perfect sense as the primary source of the Neolithic farmer DNA that resulted in the Corded Ware mix, which was about 80% Yamnaya. GAC was in the right place at the right time. Its people were the successors of TRB over much of their territory. We also have some massacre scenes that have lately been uncovered in which the GAC victims suffered massive blows to the head consistent with the use of Corded Ware axes. As archaeologist Kristian Kristiansen mentioned at some length in his lecture in Vienna at the end of 2018, it is apparent that young male warriors from the steppe often wiped out the males in Neolithic farming villages and took the females as captives.

IMHO, Beaker was derived from Corded Ware and is in fact just a further development of it. Corded Ware men continued taking Neolithic farmer women, which is reflected as time went on in the drop from 80% Yamnaya in Corded Ware to 50% Yamnaya in Beaker.

TigerMW
11-23-2020, 05:01 PM
GAC makes perfect sense as the primary source of the Neolithic farmer DNA that resulted in the Corded Ware mix, which was about 80% Yamnaya. GAC was in the right place at the right time. ...
I don't remember the paper but I believe I posted the excerpt here somewhere.
I'll go back to my old refrain, GAC is not GAC is not GAC. It may have significant regional and time period differences.

The excerpt was a comment that at the southern fringes of GAC the paper said there were pockets of steppes like influences, early on. It may have been the Yamnaya intervening in GAC similar, eventually overtaking it from hedgemonious method.

rms2
11-23-2020, 08:34 PM
That may be true, but thus far no steppe DNA has shown up in ancient GAC remains, nor has any Y-DNA R1a or R1b. It's all been I2a and Neolithic farmer autosomal DNA.

rms2
11-23-2020, 09:57 PM
Gimbutas believed that there were parts of the GAC territory that were ruled by steppe elites and that some hybridization took place, creating a composite, "kurganized" culture. Of course, as I mentioned in my last post, thus far there is no ancient DNA evidence to that effect.

This is from Gimbutas's The Civilization of the Goddess, page 384:



The physical type of this population [GAC] is not yet satisfactorily known. In Romania only seven skeletons have been examined which were characterized by Olga Necrasov as "attenuated Proto-Europid with some brachylization". The broad-headed skulls from the stone-cist graves in western Ukraine are very similar to those from Romanian Moldavia, and the skulls from Poland are also broad-headed. Multivariate comparisons made between seventeen male skulls from central Germany, Czechoslovakia, and Poland by Ilse Schwidetzky has shown affinities with the substratum TRB population. Although the number of individuals examined is still very small, it is interesting to note that Schwidetzky sees a certain gradation within the Globular Amphora population in which breadth measurements decrease from east to west. The eastern groups are very similar to the Kurgan type, while the western resemble the central German TRB people. We have yet to discover the amount of population influx and how much crossing took place between the various types.

Nevertheless, it is apparent that the emergence of the Globular Amphora culture in the north European plain is crucial to an understanding of the Indo-Europeanization of this part of Europe. We must bear in mind that the fundamental social, religious and economic components of the Globular Amphora culture link it to the North Pontic area.

dsm
11-23-2020, 10:11 PM
RMS2,

This is a very useful map. Entries 2,3 & 4 are particularly compelling because of the dates.

rms2
11-23-2020, 10:13 PM
RMS2,

This is a very useful map. Entries 2,3 & 4 are particularly compelling because of the dates.

For some reason I don't see the map you're referring to.

MitchellSince1893
11-23-2020, 10:26 PM
For some reason I don't see the map you're referring to.
Maybe he's referring to the link for the map I posted?

If so, then he's referring to this?

Going back and reviewing Furholt 2014 "Upending a totality"
https://www.academia.edu/5878366/Upe...8_January_2014

Table 1 has the following chronology for the "Corded Ware phenomenon". If it is accurate then eyeballing the chart:
~2950 BC Bay Coast Culture in Lithuania/East Prussia
~2900 BC Zlota Culture in Southeast Poland
~2900 BC Corded Ware in North Central Poland
~2825 BC Single Grave Culture in Jutland
~2800 BC Battle Axe Culture in Southern Sweden
~2800-2750 BC Corded Ware in Central Germany
~2775 BC Corded Ware in Bohemia
~2775 BC Corded Ware in Southern Germany
~2750 BC Single Grave Culture in Netherlands
~2725 BC Single Grave Culture in Switzerland
~2700 BC Younger Neolithic with Corded Ware in Danish Isles and NE Germany

dsm
11-23-2020, 10:32 PM
For some reason I don't see the map you're referring to.

I posted a reply (without quote) to your map of Cordedware burials. I thought using reply would point back to it.

I would post the map again but the forum no longer lets me add images (says I have exceeded my quota ?)

Coldmountains
11-23-2020, 10:35 PM
I have my doubts that an R1a-Z93 population originated in the South Baltic but interesting read nonetheless.

Very much agree. Z93 was around 3000 B.C present from the Balkan to Central Russia but avoided regions west of (Central) Ukraine. There is so far zero Z93 from Corded Ware cultures in Poland, the Baltics or Central Europe. Interesting why Z93 avoided the west so much but expanded early southwestwards (Usatovo) and northeastwards. (Fatyanovo). Based on all this Z93 most likely originated between the Dnjepr and Upper Don, where earliest Z93 in Sredny Stog was also found.

rms2
11-23-2020, 10:41 PM
I posted a reply (without quote) to your map of Cordedware burials. I thought using reply would point back to it.

I would post the map again but the forum no longer lets me add images (says I have exceeded my quota ?)

If you donate a few bucks and become a gold member, one of the benefits is unlimited image posting.

I made that map using Paint and an image from the Sjögren et al paper, "Diet and Mobility in the Corded Ware of Central Europe" (2016), so I've got it at hand.

I just found out the same map (originally from Müller et al 2009) appears in the new Nordvist and Heyd paper, but without the R1b sample locations I added, of course.

davit
11-23-2020, 10:49 PM
Very much agree. Z93 was around 3000 B.C present from the Balkan to Central Russia but avoided regions west of (Central) Ukraine. There is so far zero Z93 from Corded Ware cultures in Poland, the Baltics or Central Europe. Interesting why Z93 avoided the west so much but expanded early southwestwards (Usatovo) and northeastwards. (Fatyanovo). Based on all this Z93 most likely originated between the Dnjepr and Upper Don, where earliest Z93 in Sredny Stog was also found.

Who knows? We could also ask why Z282 didn't chose to expand east? There's so many of these scenarios that I don't worry about it. Like why did Iran_N ancestry spread east to the Indus Valley but Anatolia_N chose to stop in Central Asia?

rms2
11-23-2020, 10:52 PM
Here's that map again. I'm posting it to honor the rumor that a big paper on Single Grave Corded Ware in the Lower Rhine, more specifically, in the Netherlands, is supposed to be on its way and is supposed to feature a fair amount of R1b-L51. Can't wait to add those samples to the map. There's plenty of space up in that zone.

41362

Coldmountains
11-23-2020, 10:57 PM
Who knows? We could also ask why Z282 didn't chose to expand east?

There is actually some Z280* in Srubnaya but better sampling could of course show a different picture with some big surprises like Z93 in Central Europe or L51 in Afghanistan/India (there was probably some L51 in the region at least via Afanasievo-like groups).

dsm
11-23-2020, 11:05 PM
If you donate a few bucks and become a gold member, one of the benefits is unlimited image posting.

I made that map using Paint and an image from the Sjögren et al paper, "Diet and Mobility in the Corded Ware of Central Europe" (2016), so I've got it at hand.

I just found out the same map (originally from Müller et al 2009) appears in the new Nordvist and Heyd paper, but without the R1b sample locations I added, of course.

$10US donated :)

Now a 'gold' member. Thanks for the advice.

rms2
11-23-2020, 11:09 PM
$10US donated :)

Now a 'gold' member. Thanks for the advice.

Looking good!

davit
11-24-2020, 12:39 AM
There is actually some Z280* in Srubnaya but better sampling could of course show a different picture with some big surprises like Z93 in Central Europe or L51 in Afghanistan/India (there was probably some L51 in the region at least via Afanasievo-like groups).

Are there any South Central Asians with L51? L51 seems like it was a really small minority in Afanasievo. Does Afanasievo even leave the more common Z2103 in that region?

dsm
11-24-2020, 02:36 AM
Are there any South Central Asians with L51? L51 seems like it was a really small minority in Afanasievo. Does Afanasievo even leave the more common Z2103 in that region?

Afanasievo was mostly R1b-Z2103. I only know of one R1b-L51 claimed from there (actually L52 aka P310) called I6222. And, must admit am keen to see it validated. It has an est date of 5,067 ybp.

dsm
11-24-2020, 02:39 AM
I haven't read this yet (will do tonight our time). But, is this the long awaited Heyd paper mentioned eartlier ?


Kinship and social organization in Copper Age Europe. A cross-disciplinary analysis of archaeology, DNA, isotopes, and anthropology from two Bell Beaker cemeteries

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0241278

rms2
11-24-2020, 02:56 AM
I haven't read this yet (will do tonight our time). But, is this the long awaited Heyd paper mentioned eartlier ?


Kinship and social organization in Copper Age Europe. A cross-disciplinary analysis of archaeology, DNA, isotopes, and anthropology from two Bell Beaker cemeteries

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0241278

It was discussed here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?22247-More-Beaker-L2&p=720756&viewfull=1#post720756) in the L2 subforum, since that's as far as they got with some of the Beaker skeletons.

R.Rocca
11-24-2020, 03:50 AM
Here's that map again. I'm posting it to honor the rumor that a big paper on Single Grave Corded Ware in the Lower Rhine, more specifically, in the Netherlands, is supposed to be on its way and is supposed to feature a fair amount of R1b-L51. Can't wait to add those samples to the map. There's plenty of space up in that zone.

41362

The Święte L52+ samples are from the Radymno Commune, Jarosław District in south-east Poland only a few miles from the Ukrainian border. See here for the correct town: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Awi%C4%99te,_Podkarpackie_Voivodeship

etrusco
11-24-2020, 08:26 AM
The Święte L52+ samples are from the Radymno Commune, Jarosław District in south-west Poland only a few miles from the Ukrainian border. See here for the correct town: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Awi%C4%99te,_Podkarpackie_Voivodeship

It looks that the Auvernier sample mentioned in the map is labeled as a Swiss sample but I think it is an Auvergnier from the France region of Auvergne and tied to the local Auvernier Corded horizon not the swiss one

rms2
11-24-2020, 03:13 PM
The Święte L52+ samples are from the Radymno Commune, Jarosław District in south-west Poland only a few miles from the Ukrainian border. See here for the correct town: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Awi%C4%99te,_Podkarpackie_Voivodeship

Thanks. I'll correct that when I get the chance later today.

razyn
11-24-2020, 03:22 PM
Here's that map again. I'm posting it to honor the rumor that a big paper on Single Grave Corded Ware in the Lower Rhine, more specifically, in the Netherlands, is supposed to be on its way and is supposed to feature a fair amount of R1b-L51. Can't wait to add those samples to the map. There's plenty of space up in that zone.

41362

Just in case it would affect your somewhat specifically CW map, the Quedlinburg guys are about contemporary. I0806 and (I think) I0805 have been called "Beaker burials in a Corded Ware cemetery." So IIRC that's a DF27 guy and a U152 guy, ancestrally from the steppe and with saddle sores, but buried with incorrect tableware (as Jean Manco used to call it). There is of course the possibility that I'm making some of this up, I have an old and largely worn out brain. It could be checked, anyhow.

R.Rocca
11-24-2020, 03:52 PM
Afanasievo was mostly R1b-Z2103. I only know of one R1b-L51 claimed from there (actually L52 aka P310) called I6222. And, must admit am keen to see it validated. It has an est date of 5,067 ybp.

It has been validated by several people.

rms2
11-24-2020, 08:08 PM
Okay, here is the corrected CW map. It made things kind of crowded down there in SE Poland. Remember it represents ballpark locations.

41385

rms2
11-24-2020, 08:09 PM
Just in case it would affect your somewhat specifically CW map, the Quedlinburg guys are about contemporary. I0806 and (I think) I0805 have been called "Beaker burials in a Corded Ware cemetery." So IIRC that's a DF27 guy and a U152 guy, ancestrally from the steppe and with saddle sores, but buried with incorrect tableware (as Jean Manco used to call it). There is of course the possibility that I'm making some of this up, I have an old and largely worn out brain. It could be checked, anyhow.

Well, of course, they weren't contemporary with the oldest CW specimens on the map, which are much older than any known Beaker remains.

rms2
11-24-2020, 10:19 PM
It looks that the Auvernier sample mentioned in the map is labeled as a Swiss sample but I think it is an Auvergnier from the France region of Auvergne and tied to the local Auvernier Corded horizon not the swiss one

No, it's the Auvernier in Switzerland, the latitude and longitude of which, 46.5835, 6.5245 (46°35'00.6"N 6°31'28.2"E), is given in the Furtwängler et al spreadsheet.

Auvernier (https://goo.gl/maps/XYVwyRBEz58LiydNA)

Coldmountains
11-24-2020, 10:27 PM
Are there any South Central Asians with L51? L51 seems like it was a really small minority in Afanasievo. Does Afanasievo even leave the more common Z2103 in that region?

I am sure there is based on L51 in Afanasievo and some very "western" Y-DNA in the region. I2 for example makes 5% of Hazara Y-DNA and around 0,5-1% of Tajik/Pashtun/Baluch Y-DNA. Even I1 was already found among Hazara and Tajiks ( in one case of recent medieval/Iron Age Scandinavian origin). I guess L51* was not found yet because few people from this region test on commerical sites and most dna studies from the region are just based on low resolved snps or few str markers. So we don't even know the actual R1a clades of many populations in the region.

TigerMW
11-25-2020, 10:48 PM
Afanasievo was mostly R1b-Z2103. I only know of one R1b-L51 claimed from there (actually L52 aka P310) called I6222. And, must admit am keen to see it validated. It has an est date of 5,067 ybp.

It is clearly R-P310*. FTDNA’s interpretation was positive calls for several of the equivalents: L52, P310, P311, CTS7650 (unreliable in ancient samples), YSC0000082 (not on the YFull tree)
Also negative for 2 of the 3 immediately downstream in the R-L151 block.

They check for upstream and downstream SNPs. They say everything lines up.

Mike (they updated my username to be consistent with my nickname in genealogy (old sports thing).

rms2
11-26-2020, 01:08 AM
I'm a little reluctant to mention this here, but I have started an R1b-L51 Indo-Europeans group at MeWe.

If you want to join in the discussion, here is the link:

https://mewe.com/join/r1b-l51indo-europeans

No politics or religious proselytizing, please.

rms2
11-26-2020, 01:47 PM
I'm a little reluctant to mention this here, but I have started an R1b-L51 Indo-Europeans group at MeWe.

If you want to join in the discussion, here is the link:

https://mewe.com/join/r1b-l51indo-europeans

No politics or religious proselytizing, please.

We already have a pretty solid, albeit small, gathering there.

Guess it's okay to mention that dsm is there and contributing. Thanks, dsm!

rms2
12-03-2020, 10:35 PM
Well, things are extremely dull here at Anthrogenica.

Look at the Ancient DNA subforum (if you want to take a nap, that is).

I keep checking the Eurogenes Blog for the big news, but no luck thus far.

There's a little bit of activity over at the L51 MeWe group, but even there we're really just waiting for some of those big papers to appear.

If I were making a film about the state of things right now, I would call it Yawn of the Dead.

rms2
12-08-2020, 12:49 PM
Like me, you probably check the Eurogenes Blog (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/12/looking-forward-to-post-covid-19-world.html) periodically (maybe daily) for news from the world of ancient DNA provided by someone who seems to know what he is talking about. (Can't vouch for the stuff in the Comments, but I don't think the blog's author endorses most of that either.)

Anyway, the latest blog post there is about the fact that the new papers we're all anxiously waiting for probably won't appear until 2021, if then, and shares some predictions based on what the blog's author has heard from, in his words, "various sources".

Here are those predictions:



. . . Trust me, we've got a lot to look forward to in the post-Covid-19 world. Based on what I've heard from various sources, here are some predictions about what we might see:

- the search for the Proto-Indo-European homeland will shift west to the North Pontic steppe

- on the other hand, the search for the Proto-Uralic homeland will move deep into Siberia

- the key role of the Single Grave (westernmost Corded Ware) culture in the population history of Western Europe will finally get some attention

- following on from the above, Y-haplogroup R1b-L51 will be revealed as a Single Grave marker

- the idea that the Pontic-Caspian steppe was colonized by migrants from Mesopotamia during the Bronze Age will be forgotten, and, ironically, we'll instead learn that there was a significant influx of steppe ancestry into ancient Mesopotamia

- Old Kingdom Egyptians will come out less Sub-Saharan African than present-day Egyptians.

I probably shouldn't blab everything out, so that's all you're getting from me for now. You'll just have to wait for the rest until next year, or perhaps even the year after that.


I put what I wanted to emphasize in bold type. That is what I have heard, too, i.e., that there is an ancient DNA study of Single Grave Corded Ware in the offing in which R1b-L51 will feature prominently.

Man! I cannot wait! Guess I have to wait, but waiting is not fun.

What I am looking forward to is not only what this study will reveal both about Single Grave Corded Ware and R1b-L51, but what it will tell us about the genesis of Kurgan Bell Beaker.

IMHO, Beaker studies have been hampered by the ghost of the Spanish Model, which is the idea that Beaker originated in Iberia and spread east. Olalde et al exploded that idea, at least in terms of ancient genomics, but still the notion that Beaker culture spread east from Iberia and was adopted by steppe-derived people in central Europe remains as a kind of compromise with the old Spanish specter.

I think what we will learn in the coming years is that Beaker was simply an offshoot of Corded Ware, and not any kind of Iberian at all.

Were there some cultural elements in Beaker that came originally from Iberia? I'm not sure. If so, what were they? Is the idea that they originated in Iberia based simply on the old assumption that the Spanish Model was right, supported by some shaky radiocarbon dates?

Anyway, please comment. It's dull around here.

razyn
12-08-2020, 01:42 PM
Dull around here, too. (Although I guess that's only about 50 miles.) Anyway, off to read Eurogenes... I check it about weekly, I suppose, but had not seen a new blog post in a while. And the Comments give me a rash.

CopperAxe
12-08-2020, 02:06 PM
Does anyone know of some Single Grave mounds that are still dotting the landscape in the Netherlands? I want to visit one.

CopperAxe
12-08-2020, 02:08 PM
IMHO, Beaker studies have been hampered by the ghost of the Spanish Model, which is the idea that Beaker originated in Iberia and spread east. Olalde et al exploded that idea, at least in terms of ancient genomics, but still the notion that Beaker culture spread east from Iberia and was adopted by steppe-derived people in central Europe remains as a kind of compromise with the old Spanish specter.

I think what we will learn in the coming years is that Beaker was simply an offshoot of Corded Ware, and not any kind of Iberian at all.

The dogma of the Iberian origin of the Bell Beaker: attempting its deconstruction (https://www.jna.uni-kiel.de/index.php/jna/article/view/112)

etrusco
12-08-2020, 03:35 PM
Like me, you probably check the Eurogenes Blog (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/12/looking-forward-to-post-covid-19-world.html) periodically (maybe daily) for news from the world of ancient DNA provided by someone who seems to know what he is talking about. (Can't vouch for the stuff in the Comments, but I don't think the blog's author endorses most of that either.)

Anyway, the latest blog post there is about the fact that the new papers we're all anxiously waiting for probably won't appear until 2021, if then, and shares some predictions based on what the blog's author has heard from, in his words, "various sources".

Here are those predictions:



I put what I wanted to emphasize in bold type. That is what I have heard, too, i.e., that there is an ancient DNA study of Single Grave Corded Ware in the offing in which R1b-L51 will feature prominently.

Man! I cannot wait! Guess I have to wait, but waiting is not fun.

What I am looking forward to is not only what this study will reveal both about Single Grave Corded Ware and R1b-L51, but what it will tell us about the genesis of Kurgan Bell Beaker.

IMHO, Beaker studies have been hampered by the ghost of the Spanish Model, which is the idea that Beaker originated in Iberia and spread east. Olalde et al exploded that idea, at least in terms of ancient genomics, but still the notion that Beaker culture spread east from Iberia and was adopted by steppe-derived people in central Europe remains as a kind of compromise with the old Spanish specter.

I think what we will learn in the coming years is that Beaker was simply an offshoot of Corded Ware, and not any kind of Iberian at all.

Were there some cultural elements in Beaker that came originally from Iberia? I'm not sure. If so, what were they? Is the idea that they originated in Iberia based simply on the old assumption that the Spanish Model was right, supported by some shaky radiocarbon dates?

Anyway, please comment. It's dull around here.

I think there are some posts from Eurogenes worth to be quoted


there's nothing significantly CHG or Yamnaya-like in the forest zone until the Eneolithic.

And it only shows up there consistently with Fatyanovo.

Early Corded Ware has nothing to do with the forest zone. It's from the steppe near the Black Sea coast no less.

It seems that the R1b L51 that mastered on western europe is not from Volosovo anyway it is relevant this one also regarding the forest zone



Yes there is. Hundreds of samples.

Most are R1b. And they're all basically EHG/WHG.



This one is relevant too

I think you and many others here are in for a shock when you see the new data from the steppe.

The Yamnaya expansion didn't start at the eastern end of the PC steppe, , but in fact it largely moved from west to east. That is, from the steppe north of the Black Sea into the Caspian region.

This should have been obvious a long time ago, because there's a western signal in the Yamnaya genome that is lacking in Khvalynsk, Progress, etc. But these things are often hard to read correctly without more samples to create the proper context.

So yeah, there was a lot of replacement, but that largely happened in the Volga and Caspian steppes.

This one also is important


Try and understand that M417 was a very limited lineage until the Eneolithic, after which it exploded in frequency, especially with Corded Ware.

etrusco
12-08-2020, 03:38 PM
the search for the Proto-Indo-European homeland will shift west to the North Pontic steppe

Obviously is not the subject of this thread but still the most important quote

It seems that the pontic hunters after absorbing the agropastoralist way of life by the contact with the balkan-carpathian regions first absorbed and rolled over their eastern neighbors and then took down everything on their west.

rms2
12-08-2020, 04:03 PM
I take "shift west to the North Pontic steppe" to mean too far west to include the Caspian part of "Pontic-Caspian".

Of course, he did say, "the search for the Proto-Indo-European homeland", which could just mean we should expect some ancient genomes from the North Pontic steppe as part of the search process.

rms2
12-08-2020, 04:08 PM
I think there are some posts from Eurogenes worth to be quoted


there's nothing significantly CHG or Yamnaya-like in the forest zone until the Eneolithic.

And it only shows up there consistently with Fatyanovo.

Early Corded Ware has nothing to do with the forest zone. It's from the steppe near the Black Sea coast no less.

It seems that the R1b L51 that mastered on western europe is not from Volosovo anyway it is relevant this one also regarding the forest zone



Yes there is. Hundreds of samples.

Most are R1b. And they're all basically EHG/WHG.



This one is relevant too

I think you and many others here are in for a shock when you see the new data from the steppe.

The Yamnaya expansion didn't start at the eastern end of the PC steppe, , but in fact it largely moved from west to east. That is, from the steppe north of the Black Sea into the Caspian region.

This should have been obvious a long time ago, because there's a western signal in the Yamnaya genome that is lacking in Khvalynsk, Progress, etc. But these things are often hard to read correctly without more samples to create the proper context.

So yeah, there was a lot of replacement, but that largely happened in the Volga and Caspian steppes.

This one also is important


Try and understand that M417 was a very limited lineage until the Eneolithic, after which it exploded in frequency, especially with Corded Ware.

Thanks for those. Honestly, I don't usually read the comments at Eurogenes. In the past there was too much stupidism, not from the blog's author, but from all sorts of other folks. It was all just too headache inducing to be worth the effort.

rms2
12-08-2020, 04:10 PM
The dogma of the Iberian origin of the Bell Beaker: attempting its deconstruction (https://www.jna.uni-kiel.de/index.php/jna/article/view/112)

A classic. We discussed that here several years ago, long before Olalde et al basically drove a stake through the heart of the Spanish Model.

davit
12-08-2020, 04:22 PM
Thanks for those. Honestly, I don't usually read the comments at Eurogenes. In the past there was too much stupidism, not from the blog's author, but from all sorts of other folks. It was all just too headache inducing to be worth the effort.

Yea but other people's stupidity causes the blog's author to give us info on upcoming papers.

ADW_1981
12-08-2020, 04:55 PM
In terms of SGC, I interpreted earlier that L51+ just meant not in the eastern Z2103+ branch. However, according to David, it appears that it's actually L51+ (xL11), at least based on the data available.

rms2
12-08-2020, 05:06 PM
In terms of SGC, I interpreted earlier that L51+ just meant not in the eastern Z2103+ branch. However, according to David, it appears that it's actually L51+ (xL11), at least based on the data available.

We'll see. When I say L51, I mean it and any of its subclades.

But, yeah, it's kind of a catch-all rubric for the branch of L23 that isn't Z2103.

That pretty old Afanasievo skeleton from Mongolia was P310.

rms2
12-08-2020, 05:47 PM
We'll see. When I say L51, I mean it and any of its subclades.

But, yeah, it's kind of a catch-all rubric for the branch of L23 that isn't Z2103.

That pretty old Afanasievo skeleton from Mongolia was P310.

Sorry for quoting myself, but I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that when that Single Grave paper comes out, the L51 samples will be at least a step or two downstream of L51, or at least some of them will be.

As I mentioned, that Afanasievo skeleton from Mongolia from Wang et al was R1b-P310 (L52), and it was dated to 3316-2918 cal BC.

I doubt any Single Grave Corded Ware will be that old (although anything is possible), so they could easily be P311, maybe even P312. I'm hoping they date to at least 2800 BC though.

rms2
12-08-2020, 05:59 PM
Oh! I almost forgot: of the oldest R1b Corded Ware skeletons we know about thus far, one was R1b-L52, and the other was R1b-L151.

They were Swiss Corded Ware from Furtwängler et al.

The R1b-L52 was MX304 from Auvernier, dated to 2866-2601 cal BC, and the R1b-L151 was Aes25 from Aesch, dated to 2864-2501 cal BC.

alan
12-08-2020, 07:45 PM
Oh! I almost forgot: of the oldest R1b Corded Ware skeletons we know about thus far, one was R1b-L52, and the other was R1b-L151.

They were Swiss Corded Ware from Furtwängler et al.

The R1b-L52 was MX304 from Auvernier, dated to 2866-2601 cal BC, and the R1b-L151 was Aes25 from Aesch, dated to 2864-2501 cal BC.

Unless I am getting confused, the L52xL151 lineages seem interesting and seem to have been significant on the steppe at one time. There is that Afansievo guy and there is also that group of men from SE Polish later CW c. 2500-2400BC whose appearance looks to me to be related to a period of clear connections with Catacomb and likely migrants coming up the Dniester. to Poland. Afansievo and Catacomb have one thing clear in common - they seem to have come out of the Yamnaya or closely Yamnaya related actual steppe groups. Catacomb likely arose among a Yamnaya group in the Azov-Don area and as for Afanasievo, its now redated to being in line date-wise with early Yamnaya c. 3300BC if I recall correctly. It pretty well looks like a very basal branch off of Yamnaya tree to me now it has been redated after a short period when it was wrongly dated too old. As for where Afansievo originated, I am not sure where the current opinion places it but presumably in the Russian part of the Euro steppe between the Don and the Volga. So, homeland of Afansievo and later the oldest part of Catacomb were both originally around the Don or between it and the Volga. That would tend to make me think that is where L52xL151 may have had an early home c. 3300-2800BC and spread out in both Afanasievo c. 3300BC and Catacomb phases. That is interesting to me as it seems to have missed the big main boat in the Yamnaya invasion into the Lower Danube. So, unless that is an artifact of insufficient sampling, there must be nuance to the distribution of L23 clades on the steppe in that era and to where the movements west came from. My guess is L52xL151 didnt spread west into Old Europe until the western extension of Catacomb into the Lower Danube around Romania etc and up the Dniester into Poland c. 2500BC. But L151 seems to have preceded it in heading west with CW at least in small numbers, presumably by 2800BC, maybe earlier, depending on what type of L51 is found in single grave. That kind of suggests to me that the L151 branch or its immediate ancestor was located further west on the steppes (perhaps the Dniester) than L51xL151 back c. 2800BC or even a little earlier and L51xL151 moved west from say the Don/ Azov area to the Dniester and into the Lower Danube a little later as Catacomb spread west.

alan
12-08-2020, 08:05 PM
Sorry for quoting myself, but I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that when that Single Grave paper comes out, the L51 samples will be at least a step or two downstream of L51, or at least some of them will be.

As I mentioned, that Afanasievo skeleton from Mongolia from Wang et al was R1b-P310 (L52), and it was dated to 3316-2918 cal BC.

I doubt any Single Grave Corded Ware will be that old (although anything is possible), so they could easily be P311, maybe even P312. I'm hoping they date to at least 2800 BC though.

It seems that L51 formed over 1000 years before CW existed and even the common ancestor could be that kind of age. So, single grave only dating from 2900BC must be many steps further downstream. I'd strongly suspect L51 in single grave in L151. In fact the yfull date of its TMRCA of 2800BC is very close to the age of single grave. So, that TMRCA may actually reflect the moment very early L151 found itself in a situation to expand into vast new territories and expand as a lineage. In fact the MRCA date of L151 c. 2800BC may represent the first ever very large expansion of any L51 clade as L52xL151 looks a minor player.

It'd be interesting to know how L151 initially spread. Did it spread along the north coast then penetrated south inland down the Elbe, Rhine etc? Or did it split and partly use the Danube while another part used the northern route west. My feeling is it probably took a very northern route west and then penetrated south down the Elbe, Rhine etc.

rms2
12-08-2020, 08:08 PM
You'll have to refresh my memory. Were those skeletons actually ancestral for L151, or was L52 as far as they could get, and there was just no result for L151?

Kopfjäger
12-09-2020, 01:11 AM
Sorry for quoting myself, but I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that when that Single Grave paper comes out, the L51 samples will be at least a step or two downstream of L51, or at least some of them will be.

As I mentioned, that Afanasievo skeleton from Mongolia from Wang et al was R1b-P310 (L52), and it was dated to 3316-2918 cal BC.

I doubt any Single Grave Corded Ware will be that old (although anything is possible), so they could easily be P311, maybe even P312. I'm hoping they date to at least 2800 BC though.

Do you think we may see P312? Or is that too downstream?

rms2
12-09-2020, 02:27 AM
Do you think we may see P312? Or is that too downstream?

I think we could. It depends on how old P312 actually is and how old the skeletons are.

Kopfjäger
12-09-2020, 02:50 AM
I think we could. It depends on how old P312 actually is and how old the skeletons are.

We've come a long way from that ol' R1b "Ruisko" moniker. You don't miss those days at DNA-Forums, Rich? Lol

It's looking like Bell Beaker really is from SGC, I'd have to say within what is now known as the Netherlands.

rms2
12-09-2020, 02:57 AM
Does anyone know of some Single Grave mounds that are still dotting the landscape in the Netherlands? I want to visit one.

There are thousands of them, and Quentin Bourgeois is supposed to have made an inventory. I think some of that inventory is included in the paper, Diversity in uniformity, uniformity in diversity: barrow groups in the Netherlands (https://www.academia.edu/1908920/Diversity_in_uniformity_uniformity_in_diversity_ba rrow_groups_in_the_Netherlands).

Hope you can find some of them and take some photos.

I have not read that paper yet, so I'm not sure how useful it will prove. I read in another paper that Bourgeois made a survey of barrows in 2013.

rms2
12-09-2020, 03:09 AM
The following is from page 15 of Karsten Wentink's doctoral dissertation, Stereotype: The role of grave sets in Corded Ware and Bell Beaker funerary practices (https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/handle/1887/123270) (2020):



The Netherlands have long-since played an important role in the research of CW and BB burial mounds. One reason for this is the fact that they are plentiful in this area, another is that they have a long research history due to being clearly visible in the landscape. Bourgeois (2013) made an inventory of barrows, indicating that there are thousands of them present in the Netherlands. Of the ca. 500 excavated barrows included in his database, roughly half date to the 3rd millennium BCE (Bourgeois 2013, 31). Of these Late Neolithic barrows about half can be attributed to the Late Neolithic A (LNA, i.e. CW and AAO) and the other half to the Late Neolithic B (LNB, i.e. BB ). These results were corroborated in this research as will be presented below. We can thus speak of a fairly balanced dataset with equal numbers of graves attributed to both the LNA and LNB.

This also touches upon another reason why the Netherlands are ideally suited for studying Late Neolithic graves. The Netherlands are quite unique in having a cultural chronology containing Funnelbeaker megaliths, the earliest CW burial mounds, graves
containing AOO beakers, the earliest maritime bell beakers and later local variant bell beakers (Lanting and Van der Waals 1976). The presence of this full sequence of beakers – seemingly a continuous development – has even led to the postulation of the so-called ‘Dutch-model’ suggesting that the BB culture developed in the Netherlands.

etrusco
12-09-2020, 01:45 PM
The following is from page 15 of Karsten Wentink's doctoral dissertation, Stereotype: The role of grave sets in Corded Ware and Bell Beaker funerary practices (https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/handle/1887/123270) (2020):

I think the origin of the BBC is an outdated question. It arose in the past because ( quite obviously) back then everyone was convinced that the birth of the BBC was something like the emerging of a new ethnicity in Europe. We now know that this is not the case. BBC is just a cultural stage ( a fashion) inside the history of a well and pre existing ethnicity. That is the R1b M269 and offspring clans that first developed PIE and then toook it to a variaty of new locations.
The first stage in the cultural passage ( and by far the most important) happened close to the Carpathians where the R1b and R1a ( and I2) incorporeted the new fashion of the dimorphical gendered burial. Then as they moved west they took other cultural expression of local people and sure many of them also from the TRBC and GAC in northern europe. But also other ideas and concept from Grand Pressigny, Fontbuisse and also Iberia. But those are all fashions. Not that in western europe this was the birth as I said, of a new people. Asking about the origin of the BB people is like asking the birth of the industrial revolution people or the renaissance people. Sure these cultural expressions were invented by clear defined ethnicity ( Anglo Saxon and Tuscans) but hell english and central italians exsisted already, I guess......

Ancient dna gave a lot of responses to old questions but also made us realize that we had wrong theories because we asked ourselves the wrong questions. That makes ancient dna so important.

rms2
12-09-2020, 07:47 PM
I think the origin of the BBC is an outdated question. It arose in the past because ( quite obviously) back then everyone was convinced that the birth of the BBC was something like the emerging of a new ethnicity in Europe. We now know that this is not the case. BBC is just a cultural stage ( a fashion) inside the history of a well and pre existing ethnicity. That is the R1b M269 and offspring clans that first developed PIE and then toook it to a variaty of new locations . . .

I don't really agree with that. In fact, I don't agree with it at all.

It seems to me the origin of Beaker is a very relevant question and not outdated at all. Look at the 90%+ replacement the Beaker people affected in Britain and subsequently carried to Ireland. That wasn't simply the spread of a cultural fashion that the people in those islands adopted because they thought it was cool. It was the spread of a new people from the Continent.

I want to know who they were and how they got to be the people they were.

Webb
12-09-2020, 07:58 PM
It seems that L51 formed over 1000 years before CW existed and even the common ancestor could be that kind of age. So, single grave only dating from 2900BC must be many steps further downstream. I'd strongly suspect L51 in single grave in L151. In fact the yfull date of its TMRCA of 2800BC is very close to the age of single grave. So, that TMRCA may actually reflect the moment very early L151 found itself in a situation to expand into vast new territories and expand as a lineage. In fact the MRCA date of L151 c. 2800BC may represent the first ever very large expansion of any L51 clade as L52xL151 looks a minor player.

It'd be interesting to know how L151 initially spread. Did it spread along the north coast then penetrated south inland down the Elbe, Rhine etc? Or did it split and partly use the Danube while another part used the northern route west. My feeling is it probably took a very northern route west and then penetrated south down the Elbe, Rhine etc.

I myself favor the counter clockwise motion. Spreading along the North Sea, then moving South/South West into Germany, Rhine. I think it is the easiest way to account for the lack of DF19, L238, and most of DF99 in South West Europe. I think if we ever find aDna for Z290, it would give us a clue.

rms2
12-09-2020, 08:15 PM
I myself favor the counter clockwise motion. Spreading along the North Sea, then moving South/South West into Germany, Rhine. I think it is the easiest way to account for the lack of DF19, L238, and most of DF99 in South West Europe. I think if we ever find aDna for Z290, it would give us a clue.

I wonder if we'll ever get that kind of detail.

It would take some pretty slick rc dating and some really great ancient Y-DNA SNP resolution to be able to know the exact route.

razyn
12-09-2020, 09:43 PM
It'd be interesting to know how L151 initially spread. Did it spread along the north [North Sea] coast then penetrate south inland down [up] the Elbe, Rhine etc? Or did it split and partly use the Danube while another part used the northern route west. My feeling is it probably took a very northern route west and then penetrated south down [up] the Elbe, Rhine etc.

I agree with this, except for which end is up.

Also, we still quibble about routes from "the steppe" to what was to become the more-western-than-Poland territory of the SGC. IMO we need to think more like livestock herders (feeding a large number of horses and cattle, on the move). More like cowboys, and less like sailors. Both skill sets would be needed, but for very different measures of time and distance.

Also, seasonal ice might be an asset to such people.

alan
12-09-2020, 10:22 PM
I wonder if we'll ever get that kind of detail.

It would take some pretty slick rc dating and some really great ancient Y-DNA SNP resolution to be able to know the exact route.

I suppose it may be possible to infer the route within CW that L151 took west if f L151 remains absent in the lower to middle Danube and it would reasonable to conclude that L151 as a whole went west north of the Carpathians and reached the Danube only in its Upper part and only after they had passed west to the north of the Carpathians. Or even that L151 may have only reached the Danube after going down the Rhine first. I think that a northern CW route is likely to transpire but just how northern I dont know. The big central European thrust west through Germany does look R1a dominated. So, it is tempting to see L151 as even more northern. As CW/Single Grave spread like lightening as far west as the Rhine in the period 2900-2800BC, it is possible that U106 and P312 then arose along the route west with U106 arising in Denmark and P312 in marginally later in Holland during the initial CW arrival 2800BC. Then of course P312 really benefited from the secondary expansion of P312 associated with beakers - which makes sense if the Dutch model is correct.

For a long time I saw the beaker east group as being slightly older than the Dutch group but I dont think there is any conclusive evidence of that and I am now open to the idea that P312 arose and expanded in Dutch single grave then spread down the Rhine then east along the Danube in the beaker era. It just seems to tie up everything nicely.

Kopfjäger
12-09-2020, 11:42 PM
I am now open to the idea that P312 arose and expanded in Dutch single grave then spread down the Rhine then east along the Danube in the beaker era. It just seems to tie up everything nicely.

This might also explain how we see subclades like L21 in places like the upper Rhine, even though the majority of it went to the Isles.

Webb
12-10-2020, 04:01 PM
I agree with this, except for which end is up.

Also, we still quibble about routes from "the steppe" to what was to become the more-western-than-Poland territory of the SGC. IMO we need to think more like livestock herders (feeding a large number of horses and cattle, on the move). More like cowboys, and less like sailors. Both skill sets would be needed, but for very different measures of time and distance.

Also, seasonal ice might be an asset to such people.

That is a good point. Transitioning to sailors and miners probably didn't happen overnight. Plus if you are moving livestock, whether it is just horses or horses and cattle, you probably are not just rushing willy nilly into unexplored territory. So the question would be did our "steppe" people stick to already cleared areas, or did they actually clear as they moved? Horses can survive feeding in salt marshes, though not ideal.

rms2
12-10-2020, 07:44 PM
Well, one advantage to movement from east to west across northern Europe is that the land is essentially flat. The landscape becomes more elevated and rugged as one moves south.

Of course, that could also work the other way. Coming in from farther south, people would tend to get funneled north, via north-flowing river valleys, and just because it's easier to go downhill than it is to go up hill.

So far, it does look like the route from the steppe for R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 was around the north side of the Carpathians, and that is the route Nordqvist and Heyd say the Yamnaya Transformers took when they transformed into Corded Ware Battle Axe people.

Here's their map again (as if you haven't seen enough of it):

41635

I added the red box around Nordqvist's and Heyd's original for emphasis, and I added the names of the Prut and the Dniester rivers to show what route the Transformers took.

I'm not sure how exact Nordqvist and Heyd meant to be with that map, but the way it is right now shows the Transformers going up the Prut and Dniester valleys around the east side of the Carpathians and eventually hanging a left (west) when they reached a route around the north end of the mountains.

alan
12-10-2020, 07:49 PM
That is a good point. Transitioning to sailors and miners probably didn't happen overnight. Plus if you are moving livestock, whether it is just horses or horses and cattle, you probably are not just rushing willy nilly into unexplored territory. So the question would be did our "steppe" people stick to already cleared areas, or did they actually clear as they moved? Horses can survive feeding in salt marshes, though not ideal.

The connectivity between various CW, single grave and battle axe groups does suggest fairly rapid acquiring of maritime skills at least good enough to cross short sea crossings in the Baltic judging from the Danish Islands and also from the connections Furholt plotted between CW groups, some of which indicate maritime travel. However, it may have been still rather rudimentary and one cant help but notice that, despite single grave people being located on the Rhine mouth in pre-beaker times for 300 years 2800-2500BC, the culture did not make the short crossing the England. It may then be that more confident seafaring skills and/or technology only developed c. 2500BC. It would be interesting if the sewn plank boats dated to the early bronze age actually started in the beaker era.

rms2
12-10-2020, 08:22 PM
Well, one advantage to movement from east to west across northern Europe is that the land is essentially flat. The landscape becomes more elevated and rugged as one moves south.

Of course, that could also work the other way. Coming in from farther south, people would tend to get funneled north, via north-flowing river valleys, and just because it's easier to go downhill than it is to go up hill.

So far, it does look like the route from the steppe for R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 was around the north side of the Carpathians, and that is the route Nordqvist and Heyd say the Yamnaya Transformers took when they transformed into Corded Ware Battle Axe people.

Here's their map again (as if you haven't seen enough of it):

41635

I added the red box around Nordqvist's and Heyd's original for emphasis, and I added the names of the Prut and the Dniester rivers to show what route the Transformers took.

I'm not sure how exact Nordqvist and Heyd meant to be with that map, but the way it is right now shows the Transformers going up the Prut and Dniester valleys around the east side of the Carpathians and eventually hanging a left (west) when they reached a route around the north end of the mountains.

Remember Svetlana Ivanova's paper, Connections between the Budzhak Culture and Central European groups of the Corded Ware Culture (https://www.academia.edu/37780634/Svetlana_Ivanova_Connections_between_the_Budzhak_C ulture_and_Central_European_groups_of_the_Corded_W are_Culture_Balltic_Pontic_Studies_2013_18_p_86_12 0)?

In it she brings the Budzhak variety of Yamnaya up from the shores of the northwestern Black Sea coast, where they encounter Corded Ware around the north side of the Carpathians. Maybe that route had already been done by Yamnaya, and Corded Ware was the result.

41638

rms2
12-11-2020, 02:57 AM
Redid my R1b Corded Ware map using a color Corded Ware distribution map. Oh well.

Got to do something on this subject while we're waiting for the big papers to come out.

MitchellSince1893
12-11-2020, 03:19 AM
Well, one advantage to movement from east to west across northern Europe is that the land is essentially flat. The landscape becomes more elevated and rugged as one moves south.

Of course, that could also work the other way. Coming in from farther south, people would tend to get funneled north, via north-flowing river valleys, and just because it's easier to go downhill than it is to go up hill.

So far, it does look like the route from the steppe for R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 was around the north side of the Carpathians, and that is the route Nordqvist and Heyd say the Yamnaya Transformers took when they transformed into Corded Ware Battle Axe people.

Here's their map again (as if you haven't seen enough of it):

41635

I added the red box around Nordqvist's and Heyd's original for emphasis, and I added the names of the Prut and the Dniester rivers to show what route the Transformers took.

I'm not sure how exact Nordqvist and Heyd meant to be with that map, but the way it is right now shows the Transformers going up the Prut and Dniester valleys around the east side of the Carpathians and eventually hanging a left (west) when they reached a route around the north end of the mountains.

EDIT: Never mind

MitchellSince1893
12-11-2020, 03:47 AM
Remember Svetlana Ivanova's paper, Connections between the Budzhak Culture and Central European groups of the Corded Ware Culture (https://www.academia.edu/37780634/Svetlana_Ivanova_Connections_between_the_Budzhak_C ulture_and_Central_European_groups_of_the_Corded_W are_Culture_Balltic_Pontic_Studies_2013_18_p_86_12 0)?


We've (or least I've) come full circle from where we were a few years ago, talking about this same area where Yamnaya meets CWC. Back then I was thinking it was the starting point for P312.
In the link you provided is this map, which I've highlighted in blue, the area where Yamnaya and CWC actually overlap. If there's gonna to be some "Transformation of Yamnaya into CWC", this would be an obvious spot for it to occur (or somewhere near it)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/69/c0/9a/69c09a5ca0318b2a5c985e6610b30f1e.png

MitchellSince1893
12-11-2020, 04:16 AM
I actually updated the map above because there was this tiny area of overlap I missed to the West of the Budzhak Culture

Michał
12-11-2020, 09:33 AM
Redid my R1b Corded Ware map using a color Corded Ware distribution map. Oh well.

Got to do something on this subject while we're waiting for the big papers to come out.

41644
Samples pcw361 and pcw362 from Łubcze in Poland belong to a common (extinct?) subclade Y215377 under R1b-L52 that is parallel to L151.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y215377/

rms2
12-11-2020, 12:29 PM
Samples pcw361 and pcw362 from Łubcze in Poland belong to a common (extinct?) subclade Y215377 under R1b-L52 that is parallel to L151.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y215377/

I think we'll see a lot of that sort of thing in ancient skeletons as we go along: lines that petered out for one reason or another. That still goes on.

alan
12-11-2020, 01:05 PM
We've (or least I've) come full circle from where we were a few years ago, talking about this same area where Yamnaya meets CWC. Back then I was thinking it was the starting point for P312.
In the link you provided is this map, which I've highlighted in blue, the area where Yamnaya and CWC actually overlap. If there's gonna to be some "Transformation of Yamnaya into CWC", this would be an obvious spot for it to occur (or somewhere near it)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/69/c0/9a/69c09a5ca0318b2a5c985e6610b30f1e.png

Nice map. I agree that the forest steppe are where the lower gives way to the Middle Dniester and Dnieper (maybe extended to to between the Prut westwards) is a fundamentally important area. It includes the Yampil area. There is a convergence between Yamnaya, GAC and CW with a number of other steppe elements. All squeezed together c. 3000-2900BC. Its got to be somewhere in there that Yamnaya, CW, other lesser known steppe elements, GAC, R1a and L51 all became interconnected in a mixing pot that produced the groups that led to CW. There is that very very early 'CW without pots' stage, the pots possible being acquires fractionally later. I am sure a lot would come clear if they did a load of DNA testing across the period 3500-2900BC in that lower to mid Prut to Dnieper zone. The Dniester and the Bug network look key. But it is possible that the nuance and sequence in CW of yDNA might relate to its formation from slightly different groups in that zone being on different rivers like the Bug, Prut, Dniester, Dnieper etc.

alan
12-11-2020, 01:59 PM
Im convinced the 2nd L51 wave of L52xL151 that appears in later CW c. 2500-2400BC in SE Poland and coinciding with clear influence from Catacomb (likely coming up the Dniester or adjacent) indicates L52xL151 on the Pontic steppes at that time. Catacomb is thought to have expanded before c. 2500BC across the Pontic Steppes from an early more restricted location around Azov/Don c. 2800BC where it developed out of a local late Yamnaya group. So, if L52xL151 was in local Yamnaya groups at Azov/Don area c. 2800BC and presumably for some centuries prior, it does give a strong hint that L151 was nearby but positioned on a river further west around that sort of time. We now know that L151 did appear sporadically in CW in central Europe and apparently (rumours) in single grave too. The fact L151 but not L52xL151 appears to have been in fairly early CW by at least 2800BC does suggest its location c. 2900BC was on the Dniester and that only after it had left north-westwards did L52xL151 take its place in the Dniester type area. When L151 (or its immediate ancestor) reached the Dniester is not known but the front runner surely has to be forest steppe Dniester Yamnaya. The only other option is it was already in the other smaller steppe cultures in the Pontic steppe prior to Yamnaya. You do get pre-Yamnaya kurgans and levels in that Yampil type area.

I actually think there may have been a sequence of groups occupying the middle Dniester. Could have been R1a followed by L51 followed by L52xL151 all going up that key route. Alternitively you have the cross river east-west/west-east route which has been detected going from the upper areas of the Lower Dnieper and the Middle Dnieper towards the Middle Dniester. I suspect some day we will find out that the relevant stretches of the Dnieper, Dniester, Bug, Prut, Pripet etc (all of which do have riverine or cross river routes west/north) were the homes of each of the key CW clades and this may explain the sequence and geographical patterning of CW yDNA. The sampling just hasnt been done yet.

alan
12-11-2020, 02:12 PM
I should also add that the position on the forest steppe not far from the farming/forest zone might have been key to adapting before the great CW strike westwards. That probably is the achievement of the early R1a and L151 groups. This sharply contrasts to the way Z2103 which remained in the Yamnaya cultural identity until 2500BC tended to be non-adaptive or certainly very slow to adapt and preferred the more steppe-like and/or drier locations to hacking and burning their way through forests of central and northern temperate Europe. That in turn IMO tends to suggest that Z2103 in its steppe days stuck to the classic dry steppe lands and perhaps left the upstream forest steppe areas of the Pontic rivers to R1a and L51/L151. In the long run, this severally limited the impact of Z2103 which appears to have even preferred Antatolian (it has steppe too), SW Asian or south Siberian arid locations to European forest zone, presumably by adapting to arid condition by mobile keeping of goats and sheep etc. Tree and rain dodgers :-)

alan
12-13-2020, 10:43 PM
Davidski just said L51 has been found in pre-beaker CW in Belgium, Holland and Germany. From memory its also been found in Czech and Switzerland too in CW. So, it looks to me like L51 was widespread, if perhaps patchy/minority in CW throughout northern and the parts of central Europe accessible from the major northern rivers that penetrate into central Europe. Its not yet been noted in any pre-beaker sample on the Lower to Mid Danube which again speaks of a northern route whereby the Danube would most likely only be reached from the rivers to its north or west in its Upper reaches.

If you think about it, you could say that a hypthetical northern L51 CW route west followed by use of the Rhine, Elbe etc to penetrate into central Europe (perhaps even reaching the upper Danube - though that is not proven yet) does kind of prefigure the core of the European steppe beaker network which was focused on the Rhine, Elbe, Upper Danube etc. Who knows? Perhaps the roots of some of the P312 beaker network was set up in the CW era and explains why the P312 major subclade geographical patterning was already very defined from the get-go in bell beaker. Sort of seeded at widespread nodal points while remaining in mutual contact but taking a few centuries to grow into significant clans and tribes. By nodal points I mean key points in the trade and interaction network - including Rhine, Western Alps, Upper Danube, Elbe etc. Furholt's map of interconnections between CW groups is interesting as it shows networking. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...e80tA&usqp=CAU

When you look at the Dutch group and ignore the geographically implausible link with Lithuania, its got links primarily with NW, Germany, Schleswig Holstein and NE Germany as well as Switzerland. The latter is interesting in that not only does it seem that the Lower Rhine had L51 derived CW but so did Switzerland. Switzerland also has links with the Czech area where a fairly early L51 CW guy was found. So, perhaps Furholts CW interaction map included an network involving the Rhine, Upper Danube and Elbe in which L51 was involved. By L51, I mean L151,

Alternatively bell beaker is the work of just one of those groups (Rhine?) expanding c. 2500BC through a centuries old CW network at the expense of others.

MitchellSince1893
12-14-2020, 01:52 AM
Archaeogenetics of Western Europe: the transition from the Mesolithic to the Neolithic
Fichera, Alessandro (2020) Archaeogenetics of Western Europe: the transition from the Mesolithic to the Neolithic. Doctoral thesis, University of Huddersfield.


... study of human remains from three archaeological sites in Belgium...
The second, less numerous genome-wide cluster revealed admixture from a Pontic-Caspian Steppe related population, further indicated by the presence of Y-chromosome R1b-M269
http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/id/eprint/35254/

rms2
12-14-2020, 02:15 AM
. . . So, it looks to me like L51 was widespread, if perhaps patchy/minority in CW throughout northern and the parts of central Europe accessible from the major northern rivers that penetrate into central Europe . . .

Not to quibble, but I think we're at the point where there are as many R1b CW samples as there are R1a, and apparently more are on the way.

Probably not so patchy or so minority.

Besides, if they're finding more than a handful of them in ancient burials, there must have been a crapload of them in the third millennium BC.