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View Full Version : Who's More Paleo-Balkan, Albanians or Greeks?



gjenetiks
05-16-2020, 12:07 AM
Albanians are apparently more northern shifting than Greeks, what does this tell us when comparing paleo-balkanic components in albanians, greeks? Who's more paleo-balkan?

Johnny ola
05-16-2020, 12:31 AM
There are not big diffrences between Albanians and Mainland Greeks.They are pretty much the same on autosomal level and on yDNA also they have some similarities.Thought, Tosks(south albanians) are less northern shifted compared to (Gheg) populations.Albanians are also less afected from West Asian and Levantine components making them more 'European' genetically.This is what i can say from the samples and gedmatches that i have seen so far from both ethnic groups.

gjenetiks
05-16-2020, 12:40 AM
There are not big diffrences between Albanians and Mainland Greeks.They are pretty much the same on autosomal level and on yDNA also they have some similarities.Thought, Tosks(south albanians) are less northern shifted compared to (Gheg) populations.Albanians are also less afected from West Asian and Levantine components making them more 'European' genetically.This is what i can say from the samples and gedmatches that i have seen so far from both ethnic groups.

I wonder how Montenegro Albanians like myself compare to mainland Greeks. I often think we MNE Albos are the Ghegs that look the most similar to Greeks.

Johnny ola
05-16-2020, 12:45 AM
I wonder how Montenegro Albanians like myself compare to mainland Greeks. I often think we are the Ghegs that look the most similar to Greeks.

I think its exactly the opposite if you want my opinion as a Greek my self.South Albanians(Tosks) are much closer to Greeks in general.. both genetically and also when it comes to looks(if you mean this btw).Tosks are a more south european group IMO while Ghegs fit better to the balkan spectrum.This is just my exp with Albanians growing up with them...I might be wrong!!!

gjenetiks
05-16-2020, 12:56 AM
I think its exactly the opposite if you want my opinion as a Greek my self.South Albanians(Tosks) are much closer to Greeks in general.. both genetically and also when it comes to looks(if you mean this btw).Tosks are a more south european group IMO while Ghegs fit better to the balkan spectrum.This is just my exp with Albanians growing up with them...I might be wrong!!!

Tosks are probably closer to Greeks genetically and phenotypically, but I think MNE Albanians are the Ghegs that look closest to Greeks out of all the Ghegs.

Greekscholar
05-16-2020, 01:04 AM
What do you mean by Paleo-Balkan? Neolithic? Bronze Age? Later?

I would agree that Greeks, especially Greek islanders are less "Balkan" because we have more Levantine/West Asian admixture. I haven't commented on the big GEDmatch Slavic Macedonian/Albanian thread, but those samples are very similar to mainland Greeks. The overall average seems more west and north shifted, but overall all three groups have significant overlapping areas on that PCA.

Kelmendasi
05-16-2020, 01:19 AM
Tosks are probably closer to Greeks genetically and phenotypically, but I think MNE Albanians are the Ghegs that look closest to Greeks out of all the Ghegs.
From what I have seen there isn't any major difference between the Albanians of Montenegro and the Albanians of North Albania when it comes to phenotype, I also think that the physical differences between Gegs and Tosks is a little exaggerated. For the most part, Albanians share common features. Though if I had to guess, I'd assume that Southern Gegs from regions of Central Albania should look closer to Greeks. But as I stated previously, I do not think there are major or distinguishable differences between regions.

As for which population is more Paleo-Balkan, Albanians as a whole are really close to mainland Greeks so both groups should be fairly similar in that aspect. However, as has been stated by others, Greek islanders tend to have extra Levantine and West Asian admixture in comparison to both Albanians and mainland Greeks.

gjenetiks
05-16-2020, 01:26 AM
There isn't really much difference among Albanians, but I think you can see differences with tribal albos compared to the broad albo population. It's as if you can see the tribe just through phenotype, crazy shit lol

gjenetiks
05-16-2020, 01:28 AM
From what I have seen there isn't any major difference between the Albanians of Montenegro and the Albanians of North Albania when it comes to phenotype, I also think that the physical differences between Gegs and Tosks is a little exaggerated. For the most part, Albanians share common features. Though if I had to guess, I'd assume that Southern Gegs from regions of Central Albania should look closer to Greeks. But as I stated previously, I do not think there are major or distinguishable differences between regions.

As for which population is more Paleo-Balkan, Albanians as a whole are really close to mainland Greeks so both groups should be fairly similar in that aspect. However, as has been stated by others, Greek islanders tend to have extra Levantine and West Asian admixture in comparison to both Albanians and mainland Greeks.

There isn't really much difference among Albanians, but I think you can see differences with tribal albos compared to the broad albo population. It's as if you can see the tribe just through phenotype, crazy shit lol

Maleschreiber
05-16-2020, 01:56 AM
Depends on how you frame the question. In general, Albanians and Greeks cluster much closer with each other than with other Balkan populations - but there is some variation there from region to region. Also, I think that most of the similarities are of a much more recent origin than ancient times.

It's important to notice that not all northern Albanians are Gegs and not all southern Albanians are Tosks. Gegs and Tosks strictly speaking live in two areas in the north and south respectively.

So, I focus on researching Albanian tribes. Until now, I've focused on northern ones, but now I am slowly moving to the more unknown southern tribes. Mainland Greece experienced a large scale migration of southern Albanians mostly in the Middle Ages so that explains part of the similarities - but these southern Albanians weren't all Tosks. The Lalė are the "native" tribe of the Myzeqe region of Albania. They migrated en masse in the Patras, Elis, Arkadia regions of Greece in the Middle Ages. It would be interesting if some Greek users could give us some information about the presence of Lalas/Lales/Laliotes in the Peloponnese. I could only find - in bibliography in English - that a part of this community had become the Muslim Laliotes tribe in the 18th century.

Also, some of the communities that migrated in Greece in that era were from northern tribes. A migrational route that amazes me to this day is that of the northern Kryethi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryethi). A branch of them migrated to Cyprus and from there a branch migrated to Poland. The result here is that in Cyprus there's the Groutas surname and in Poland there's a Crutta family.

Another interesting one is that of the tribe of Kėmbėthekra of south-eastern Albania. This community was invited to Greece by the Venetians and settled in Acarnania, then Elis and a part finally went to...Ithaca and Cefalonia.


I also suspect that with most islanders Albanians wouldn't cluster that closely and they definitely wouldn't cluster together with Pontic Greeks.

Kelmendasi
05-16-2020, 02:04 AM
Depends on how you frame the question. In general, Albanians and Greeks cluster much closer with each other than with other Balkan populations - but there is some variation there from region to region. Also, I think that most of the similarities are of a much more recent origin than ancient times.

It's important to notice that not all northern Albanians are Gegs and not all southern Albanians are Tosks. Gegs and Tosks strictly speaking live in two areas in the north and south respectively.

So, I focus on researching Albanian tribes. Until now, I've focused on northern ones, but now I am slowly moving to the more unknown southern tribes. Mainland Greece experienced a large scale migration of southern Albanians mostly in the Middle Ages so that explains part of the similarities - but these southern Albanians weren't all Tosks. The Lalė are the "native" tribe of the Myzeqe region of Albania. They migrated en masse in the Patras, Elis, Arkadia regions of Greece in the Middle Ages. It would be interesting if some Greek users could give us some information about the presence of Lalas/Lales/Laliotes in the Peloponnese. I could only find - in bibliography in English - that a part of this community had become the Muslim Laliotes tribe in the 18th century.

Also, some of the communities that migrated in Greece in that era were from northern tribes. A migrational route that amazes me to this day is that of the northern Kryethi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryethi). A branch of them migrated to Cyprus and from there a branch migrated to Poland. The result here is that in Cyprus there's the Groutas surname and in Poland there's a Crutta family.

Another interesting one is that of the tribe of Kėmbėthekra of south-eastern Albania. This community was invited to Greece by the Venetians and settled in Acarnania, then Elis and a part finally went to...Ithaca and Cefalonia.


I also suspect that with most islanders Albanians wouldn't cluster that closely and they definitely wouldn't cluster together with Pontic Greeks.
When I and others refer to Gegs and Tosks in this context, we’re talking about those who belong to the Geg and Tosk dialect groups rather than identification. As far as I am aware, all natives of North Albania speak a variant of Geg, whilst those from the south speak a variant of Tosk.

vettor
05-16-2020, 02:29 AM
depends what you call Greek ..................the Myceneans ( are they Greek and Paleo-Balkan ) or the invading Dorians ( are they Greek ) that replaced them, from NW Greece/Epirote lands

Are the Minoans , Greek ?

Is there a time frame when the word Greek was used ?

Sorcelow
05-16-2020, 02:41 AM
Depends on how you frame the question. In general, Albanians and Greeks cluster much closer with each other than with other Balkan populations - but there is some variation there from region to region. Also, I think that most of the similarities are of a much more recent origin than ancient times.

It's important to notice that not all northern Albanians are Gegs and not all southern Albanians are Tosks. Gegs and Tosks strictly speaking live in two areas in the north and south respectively.

So, I focus on researching Albanian tribes. Until now, I've focused on northern ones, but now I am slowly moving to the more unknown southern tribes. Mainland Greece experienced a large scale migration of southern Albanians mostly in the Middle Ages so that explains part of the similarities - but these southern Albanians weren't all Tosks. The Lalė are the "native" tribe of the Myzeqe region of Albania. They migrated en masse in the Patras, Elis, Arkadia regions of Greece in the Middle Ages. It would be interesting if some Greek users could give us some information about the presence of Lalas/Lales/Laliotes in the Peloponnese. I could only find - in bibliography in English - that a part of this community had become the Muslim Laliotes tribe in the 18th century.

Also, some of the communities that migrated in Greece in that era were from northern tribes. A migrational route that amazes me to this day is that of the northern Kryethi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryethi). A branch of them migrated to Cyprus and from there a branch migrated to Poland. The result here is that in Cyprus there's the Groutas surname and in Poland there's a Crutta family.

Another interesting one is that of the tribe of Kėmbėthekra of south-eastern Albania. This community was invited to Greece by the Venetians and settled in Acarnania, then Elis and a part finally went to...Ithaca and Cefalonia.


I also suspect that with most islanders Albanians wouldn't cluster that closely and they definitely wouldn't cluster together with Pontic Greeks.

I am not sure exactly when the Laliotes migrated to the Peloponnese, or when they converted to Islam. I reckon that the majority of them either were either killed during the war of independence or migrated elsewhere in the Ottoman Empire. A portion of them stayed behind and became Orthodox Christians. In the late 19th / early 20th centuries, there was still some knowledge of Albanian among at least some of the inhabitants of three villages in the vicinity of Lala - Kaloletzi, Milies, and Basta.

Maleschreiber
05-16-2020, 03:03 AM
I am not sure exactly when the Laliotes migrated to the Peloponnese, or when they converted to Islam. I reckon that the majority of them either were either killed during the war of independence or migrated elsewhere in the Ottoman Empire. A portion of them stayed behind and became Orthodox Christians. In the late 19th / early 20th centuries, there was still some knowledge of Albanian among at least some of the inhabitants of three villages in the vicinity of Lala - Kaloletzi, Milies, and Basta.

From what I'm gathering, this event happened in the 15th and early 16th century. A part of them became Muslim in the 18th century and it is this Muslim sub-community which became known to the English-speaking world the 19th century. According to forebears.io the surname appears about 836 times (https://forebears.io/surnames/laliotis) in Greece today. I read in an article in Albanian that it can be related to the "Lalas" and "Lalezas" surnames too, but I'm skeptical because these are very generic surnames that could come from many areas of southern Albania.

Back to our topic now, I think that there are many bottleneck scenarios in the Balkans, so descendants of Paleo-Balkan groups come from smaller populations that later increased again. An equally interesting question to my thinking has to do with the possible routes which this re-establishment of Paleo-Balkan populations followed.

Also, phenotypic data doesn't say much about connections - if an area practiced regional endogamy (even if in tribal terms it was exogamous) it is very likely that certain physical features became more pronounced over time.

Sorcelow
05-16-2020, 03:17 AM
As other people have pointed out, mianland Greeks and Albanians are nearly identical genetically. When I say this, I mean they have very similar proportions of certain types of ancestries, not that they necessarily share all of their recent ancestry (although there definitely has been mixing). Really, the only difference is that mainland Greeks are very slightly more CHG/IranN shifted due to historical relations with Anatolia, whereas Albanians tend to have a bit more ancestry from Neolithic farmers. So, to answer OP's question, Albanians on average should have slightly more ancestry from "Paleo-Balkan" tribes, although it really depends on the individual.

At the same time, there are definitely regional differences. I suspect that we will be shocked how much Labs, Maniots, and Tsakonians differ from mainstream Greeks and Albanians.

Hawk
05-16-2020, 06:16 AM
Based on uniparental markers, i think Albanians from Kosovo look the most Paleo-Balkan from other Albanians and Greeks.

Autosomal-wise. Albanians on general look like they have slightly more Neolithic farmer than Greeks but also more Slavic than Greeks.

Johnny ola
05-16-2020, 06:37 AM
Based on uniparental markers, i think Albanians from Kosovo look the most Paleo-Balkan from other Albanians and Greeks.

Autosomal-wise. Albanians on general look like they have slightly more Neolithic farmer than Greeks but also more Slavic than Greeks.

The steppe input among Albanians and Greeks is not 100% Slavic but also Paleo-Balkan and some of it coming from Proto-Greeks and Proto-Albanians.

Hawk
05-16-2020, 06:40 AM
The steppe input among Albanians and Greeks is not 100% Slavic but also Paleo-Balkan and some of it coming from Proto-Greeks and Proto-Albanians.

That might be true, for instance from all Albanians in G25 i score the most Steppe, almost in par with Balkan Slavs. But the thing is i also score slightly less Baltic than other Albanians. Steppe + Baltic goes on par with Slavic admixture.

Johnny ola
05-16-2020, 06:43 AM
That might be true, for instance from all Albanians in G25 i score the most Steppe, almost in par with Balkan Slavs. But the thing is i also score slightly less Baltic than other Albanians. Steppe + Baltic goes on par with Slavic admixture.

Yes. If we're gonna have in the future more accurate samples from Slavs and Thraco-Illyrians it would be easier for you and other Greek/Albanian users to estimate the Slavic and the native Balkan admixtures. Even now Albanians and Greeks can model themselves pretty good with some Balkanic samples that we got.

Maleschreiber
05-22-2020, 12:09 AM
Y-chromosome diversity of the three major ethno-linguistic groups in the Republic of North Macedonia (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497319301097) (2019)

"Buccal swabs were collected from 314 healthy unrelated males speaking one of the three major languages that exist in the Republic of North Macedonia (Macedonian-speaking Macedonians n = 103, Turkish-speaking Macedonians n = 109 and Albanian-speaking Macedonians n = 102)

Our population datasets were compared to each other using pairwise genetic distance calculation of Rst and corresponding P-values and also to reported population samples from the region including 100 Albanians from Albania (YA003096) [20], 191 Greek from Northern Greece (YA003465) [21], 203 Serbians from Serbia (YA004149) [22], 91 Bulgarians from Bulgaria (YA004094) and 320 Turks from Turkey (YA003907 and YA003719).

The reduced haplotype diversity in the Turkish subpopulation is probably also responsible for the comparatively large genetic distance to a Turkish population from Turkey (Fig. 2, Table 2). In contrast, the Albanian speaking subpopulation in North Macedonia cannot be differentiated from a sample from Albania and likewise the Slavic-speaking Macedonians are in very close genetic vicinity to other Slavic-speaking groups, the Serbians and Bulgarians (Fig. 2, Table 2).

Different ancestry and admixture of the populations is reflected by a characteristic haplogroup composition for each subpopulation. Haplogroup I2-P215 was found to be the most frequent haplogroup in Macedonian speaking Macedonians (28.1%) followed by R1a-M198 and E1b-M35 (19.4%, respectively). In Albanians the dominant haplogroup is E1b-M35 (35.3%) followed by R1b-M269 (20%) and J2b-M102 (18%) and in the Turkish speakers J2a-M410 is carried by 35% of the population followed by R1b-M269 (20%) and I2-P215 (19%)"

37679

It's interesting that Albanians in NMac cluster identically with Albanians in Alb. and the ethnic group they cluster closer to are northern Greeks.

AlfonsoVIII
05-22-2020, 07:13 AM
I think Albanians are more Paleo-Balkan then Greeks.

Scar
06-03-2020, 07:17 PM
At the same time, there are definitely regional differences. I suspect that we will be shocked how much Labs, Maniots, and Tsakonians differ from mainstream Greeks and Albanians.

Maniots plot intermediate between the Mainland and Aegean islands, they are clearly more Mediterranean shifted but not that drastic as people make it to be.
The Stamatoyannopoulos paper shows Sicilians more close to Northern Italians than to Maniots, I wouldn't take the results of that study very serious.
Can you elaborate on the Labs?

Sorcelow
06-03-2020, 08:08 PM
Maniots plot intermediate between the Mainland and Aegean islands, they are clearly more Mediterranean shifted but not that drastic as people make it to be.
The Stamatoyannopoulos paper shows Sicilians more close to Northern Italians than to Maniots, I wouldn't take the results of that study very serious.
Can you elaborate on the Labs?

Im curious, what Maniot results have you seen?

I think that Labs have more Anatolian farmer ancestry relative to other Albanians, considering they have lower R1a + I2a lineages.

Scar
06-03-2020, 08:23 PM
Im curious, what Maniot results have you seen?

I think that Labs have more Anatolian farmer ancestry relative to other Albanians, considering they have lower R1a + I2a lineages.

This PCA shows Maniotes diverging quite a lot from Sicilians, I am not sure if I am interpreting it well.

https://i.imgur.com/9d82vul.jpg

From what I have seen on Gedmatch Maniotes are like a more northern shifted version of Sicilians but considerably less northern than other Mainlanders, which makes more sense tbh.

Lek
06-07-2020, 03:27 PM
Yes. Albanians cluster more north than Greeks on average, at least Ghegs, whereas some Tosks can actually be more South shifted than even some Greeks, only Greeks that cluster maybe as North as Ghegs are Greek Macedonians who also have received large amount of Slavic influx in the region, this can also be seen by their higher % of R1a and I2a1b also. Gegographically they are similar to Southern Albanian areas so it makes no sense why they are more North on PCA also unless it's a bottleneck which I doubt.

Whereas, Proto-Albanians/Ghegs or Illyrians were always on average more north than Greeks I suspect so the more North shift of some Gheg Albanians isn't actually due to more Slavic ancestry or less Paleo-Balkan but probably from proto-Illyrian ancestry. This can especially be seen by the genetic similarity with Northern Italy among these individuals and the Bronze Age samples found in Dalmatia clustered like Northern Italians also.

Actually no evidence to suggest pre-Slavic Balkan people were like mainland Greeks mainly nor do I understand why people believe this or buy into this narrative. Also part of Albanians cluster even more South than Tuscany or Mainland Greeks such as some Southern Albanians I have seen. How could you explain such differences then ?

Albanians have absorbed a small amount of Slavs and individually Albanians have distant Slavic ancestry. However, marriages between Muslim Albanians and Slavs was rare in regions like Kosovo for example therefore Muslim Albanians should be the least Slavic shifted actually. I don't necessarily think there is any region that has more than the other so these are individual cases where in many cases the ancestry has also been diluted and doesn't seem to have anything to do with where you plot for example. We can clearly see individuals that show such distant Serbian shifted ancestry based on autosomal that goes 2000 years back, their DNA matches where they match Serbs such as Kosovo Serbs etc and some of their haplogroups such as Slavic Mtdna and in some cases even Slavic Y-DNA, and even some of their relatives and uncles scoring east europe even on 23andme, and that still plot South and try to claim they are pure Albos or represent some pure Albanians but of course it's hard to discuss these things without getting personally attacked since some people take it very personal or they think it makes them less Albanian so they start to project it onto you instead and ignore autosomal evidence such as peer reviewed studies or very accurate autosomal tests such as MyOrigins II that goes well in hand with those peer reviewed studies that basically showed the same thing.

Certainly glad I am one of the least Serb shifted Albanians I have seen and it's people I don't want anything to do with. I also come from a region that historically has been anti-Serb despite some of them lived next to us, marriages with them were very rare also. Albanians have mainly mixed with Montenigrins but in some cases some have even mixed with Serbs when they lived in Kosova for example, especially Catholic and other Christian Albanians there have mixed with Serbs and are more likely to have Serbian ancestry.

I actually seem to have distant Goth/German ancestry which has been diluted, at least based on my matches and some people from my region tested for such markers also. Which brings me to the point that, Illyria was also settled by Goths and other Germanic tribes and we can see haplogroups also related to them among our people.

I get cousins from Sweden and Germany for example also. There is more to it which I can't bother explaining now.

Kelmendasi
06-07-2020, 04:02 PM
Yes. Albanians cluster more north than Greeks on average, at least Ghegs, whereas some Tosks can actually be more South shifted than even some Greeks, only Greeks that cluster maybe as North as Ghegs are Greek Macedonians who also have received large amount of Slavic influx in the region, this can also be seen by their higher % of R1a and I2a1b also. Gegographically they are similar to Southern Albanian areas so it makes no sense why they are more North on PCA also unless it's a bottleneck which I doubt.

Whereas, Proto-Albanians/Ghegs or Illyrians were always on average more north than Greeks I suspect so the more North shift of some Gheg Albanians isn't actually due to more Slavic ancestry or less Paleo-Balkan but probably from proto-Illyrian ancestry. This can especially be seen by the genetic similarity with Northern Italy among these individuals and the Bronze Age samples found in Dalmatia clustered like Northern Italians also.

Actually no evidence to suggest pre-Slavic Balkan people were like mainland Greeks mainly nor do I understand why people believe this or buy into this narrative. Also part of Albanians cluster even more South than Tuscany or Mainland Greeks such as some Southern Albanians I have seen.
Well our current understanding of what the pre-Slavic populace of the Balkans was like in regards to auDNA is based on the Mycenaean samples, the couple samples from Iberia that are of Greek origin and Mycenaean-like, a Thracian sample from Iron Age Bulgaria, the Late Bronze Age-Early Iron Age sample from Croatia, and the likely Dacian or Getae samples that were archaeologically identified as Scythians. As can be seen, we still need more samples, especially from the western Balkans.

The Mycenaean samples, the samples from Iberia and the Thracian sample are all fairly close to each other and form a cluster that is in fact closer to southern Italians and islander Greeks than Albanians and mainland Greeks. The closest samples to Albanians and mainland Greeks are the potentially Getae samples from Moldova, the possibly Dacian sample from Hungary and an outlier from Ukraine that is identified as Cimmerian. As a whole, they're between Central Italy and the Balkans. As for the sample from Croatia, it is indeed closest to North Italians.

https://i.postimg.cc/PqY1T2SZ/image-7.png

Hawk
06-07-2020, 04:13 PM
It's a calculator effect. A Paleo-Balkan mixed with a Slav will produce a pseudo Scytho/Cimmerian-Daco-Getae sample. Let's say ~70/30 ratio percentage.

Lek
06-07-2020, 04:51 PM
Well our current understanding of what the pre-Slavic populace of the Balkans was like in regards to auDNA is based on the Mycenaean samples, the couple samples from Iberia that are of Greek origin and Mycenaean-like, a Thracian sample from Iron Age Bulgaria, the Late Bronze Age-Early Iron Age sample from Croatia, and the likely Dacian or Getae samples that were archaeologically identified as Scythians. As can be seen, we still need more samples, especially from the western Balkans.

The Mycenaean samples, the samples from Iberia and the Thracian sample are all fairly close to each other and form a cluster that is in fact closer to southern Italians and islander Greeks than Albanians and mainland Greeks. The closest samples to Albanians and mainland Greeks are the potentially Getae samples from Moldova, the possibly Dacian sample from Hungary and an outlier from Ukraine that is identified as Cimmerian. As a whole, they're between Central Italy and the Balkans. As for the sample from Croatia, it is indeed closest to North Italians.

https://i.postimg.cc/PqY1T2SZ/image-7.png

Bronze Age samples found in Croatia were closest to Northern Italians from what I recall. Bronze Age from Bulgaria were North shifted, one was like a North-East European, also an Iron Age in Montenegro was like a North East European too though some claim it's low SNP but most of these samples are. Another Bronze Age from Montenegro clustered like an Iberian also. While Iron Age Thracian was extremely South. None of those samples I have seen cluster like mainland Greeks. They are either more North or South anyway. Though it was claimed some Thracians found years ago clustered like Tuscans. But they were also low SNP. Lots of samples that were found years ago that haven't been mentioned btw or aren't taken into consideration.

Mycenean samples were extremely South too if I recall. We have some Albanians such as Southern Albanians that are extremely South or South of Tuscany. Then we have some Albanians that are like East of Northern Italians. I don't know how it can be concluded that pre-Slavic Balkan people were like mainland Greeks based or Tuscany based on this alone and that anyone who puts north of that is automatically Slavic shifted. This is clearly an agenda driven opinion. What about those Albos that plot even more South than that ? I guess the differences between those are just natural ? But anything more north than that somehow can't be ?

And This isn't even what autosomal tests or peer reviewed studies show either. Doesn't for example explain why some Albanians score East Europe on the new MyOrigins II while others don't for example. Seems to have nothing to do with where people plot. Also some seem to get British Isles for example which I also have seen some South Slavs such as Croats get. And why do Romanians score more East Europe than Albanians also or other Balkanites if somehow Slavic DNA has been ''included'' in South Europe. Then Romanians shouldn't score high East Europe nor many South Slavs which they do. Some come out like 50%-70% Slavic on MyOrigins II .


If pre-Slavic Balkan people were mainly like that Iron Age Thracian which I doubt or Mycenean, this would mean large amount of Slavic input for anybody who plots more North which is of course nonsense. Actually there is no peer reviewed study or autosomal DNA that supports this nor even autosomal matches.

Peer reviewed studies have shown Kosovars to be more like Southern European and similar to Greeks though on average more North than Greeks, showing overlap with Italians at the same time which can also be seen on similarity maps and lots of other tests.

Even that Eurogenes K36 showed this somewhat, Albanians scored high amount of North, Central or South Italy and Greece depending on where they plot, how north or how South for example. Most North shifted Albanians usually got the highest match with parts of Northern Italy. Albanians also had less similarity with East European populations, except for South Slavs who are mixed with Paleo-Balkan people like Albanians, Vlachs etc.

Also part of North shift comes from higher steppe which was also shown somewhat in some of these tests which automatically was regarded as bullshit by some Albos because they are a bit mad they don't score as high steppe so they cherrypick the test where they do get it but thing is that a lot of components can be added onto steppe that these calculators give in small amounts too. If Proto-Illyrians weren't more north shifted people , which we clearly have seen from the samples in Croatia, then what were they ? Also Bronze Age samples in Bulgaria showed Proto-Thracians were extremely North for example. Take also into consideration that Thracian from the Iron Age is Southern shifted than average most likely or not necessarily representative for Thracians as a whole.

Steppe doesn't equal more Slavic ancestry automatically anyway. Though Slavic do have more steppe. While those Albos were trying to argue that north shift is from Slavs funny enough and nor from Proto-Illyrians. It's basically a contradiction. How can an Albanian have not more steppe but have more Slavic ancestry and as a result plot more north ? Makes no sense.

Kelmendasi
06-07-2020, 05:15 PM
Bronze Age samples found in Croatia were closest to Northern Italians from what I recall. Bronze Age from Bulgaria were North shifted, one was like a North-East European, also an Iron Age in Montenegro was like a North East European too though some claim it's low SNP but most of these samples are. Another Bronze Age from Montenegro clustered like an Iberian also. While Iron Age Thracian was extremely South. None of those samples I have seen cluster like mainland Greeks. They are either more North or South anyway. Though it was claimed some Thracians found years ago clustered like Tuscans. But they were also low SNP. Lots of samples that were found years ago that haven't been mentioned btw or aren't taken into consideration.

Mycenean samples were extremely South too if I recall. We have some Albanians such as Southern Albanians that are extremely South or South of Tuscany. Then we have some Albanians that are like East of Northern Italians. I don't know how it can be concluded that pre-Slavic Balkan people were like mainland Greeks based or Tuscany based on this alone and that anyone who puts north of that is automatically Slavic shifted. This is clearly an agenda driven opinion. What about those Albos that plot even more South than that ? I guess the differences between those are just natural ? But anything more north than that somehow can't be ?

And This isn't even what autosomal tests or peer reviewed studies show either. Doesn't for example explain why some Albanians score East Europe on the new MyOrigins II while others don't for example. And why do Romanians score more East Europe than Albanians also or other Balkanites if somehow Slavic DNA has been ''included'' in South Europe. Then Romanians shouldn't score high East Europe nor many South Slavs which they do. Some come out like 50%-70% Slavic on MyOrigins II .


If pre-Slavic Balkan people were mainly like that Iron Age Thracian which I doubt or Mycenean, this would mean large amount of Slavic input for anybody who plots more North which is of course nonsense. Actually there is no peer reviewed study or autosomal DNA that supports this nor even autosomal matches.

Peer reviewed studies have shown Kosovars to be more like Southern European and similar to Greeks though on average more North than Greeks, showing overlap with Italians at the same time which can also be seen on similarity maps and lots of other tests.

Even that Eurogenes K36 showed this somewhat, Albanians scored high amount of North, Central or South Italy and Greece depending on where they plot, how north or how South for example. Most North shifted Albanians usually got the highest match with parts of Northern Italy. Albanians also had less similarity with East European populations, except for South Slavs who are mixed with Paleo-Balkan people like Albanians, Vlachs etc.

Also part of North shift comes from higher steppe which was also shown somewhat in some of these tests which automatically was regarded as bullshit by some Albos because they are a bit mad they don't score as high steppe so they cherrypick the test where they do get it. If Proto-Illyrians weren't more north shifted people , which we clearly have seen from the samples in Croatia, then what were they ?

Steppe doesn't equal more Slavic ancestry automatically anyway. Though Slavic do have more steppe. While those Albos were trying to argue that north shift is from Slavs funny enough. It's basically a contradiction. How can an Albanian have not more steppe but have more Slavic ancestry and as a result plot more north ? Makes no sense.
Yes, the Bronze Age samples from Croatia were also close to modern-day North Italians. I wouldn't really take into account the Bronze Age samples from Bulgaria since we can assume with some confidence that the peoples of this region underwent another change after this period where they became less steppe-like, also at least two of the samples that I know of from this period are off-shoots of the Yamnaya. I personally think that samples from the Iron Age to the Roman period would be best in regards to distinguishing how much Slavic or additional northeastern European admixture there is in the peoples of the Balkans, luckily there is an upcoming paper by Reich on the Roman Balkans that will for sure help clear things up.

As for the PCA, it includes the samples that are at a high enough quality to be uploaded to Global25.

The most common view isn't that the entire pre-Slavic population of the Balkans was closest to mainland Greeks, it's that the Mycenaeans and some other groups formed a cluster closest to Greek islanders and southern Italians. This view is supported by the Mycenaean samples that we have. Most agree that mainland Greeks, like the Albanians, have received additional northeastern admixture that is generally lacking in those samples.