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BalkanKiwi
05-19-2020, 11:33 PM
Hi all,

This section of the forum seems like the right place to ask this question, as there a number of knowledgeable folks here!
I’ll try and keep this brief. I recently came across the article by Moorjani et al, The History of African Gene Flow into Southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews. I’m not sure what the consensus is regarding their findings, but it got me curious. After a number of hours using triangulation, segment search, multiple kit analysis and Q matching one-one, I’ve found over 100+ Ashkenazi matches that match a small East African/Sub-Saharan/North African segment on chromosome 10 for my grandfather. After this, I, knowing the difficulty and lack of accuracy of undertaking a task only using DNA, wanted to see if it's possible to narrow down to a region in East Africa.

I’ve included a quick graphic I put together with a few of the matching kits. This is done with the MDLP K16, as I like the populations used and the color breakdown. Black=Sub-Saharan, Blue=East African, Pink=North African. I cross checked the results with the Eurogenes K13 and Punt's K13 to make sure that it’s a legitimate African segment. I also ran a number of these people through calculators with an East African component, and most get a small amount if it, What's interesting about the MDLP K16 is Luhya is listed as part of the Sub-Saharan component, even though the Moorjani et al study classes it as East African, so I suppose the blue and black are possibly a “double up” of East African. I’m not sure. The East African population is made up of a diluted Ethiopian/African Horn component.

https://i.imgur.com/e1Gcohi.png

I’ve also done G25 modelling. I created a quick map using ph2ter’s latest unscaled G25 map as the underlay. Using a combination of English, Irish, Sardinian with either Eritrean or select Ethiopian populations, I've put red dots next to all the East African populations that I get more than 0.83% on (which is 1.67%). I've also put dots next to the Yemenite populations I match closest to (4.17%), which also happens to be the darkest coloured area in Yemen and Saudi Arabia. I then put dots next to the highest North African populations I score on (3.33%), Egypt and Libya. I should mention West African doesn’t come up on any chromosome painting or calculator result for my grandfather, and I only get a few matches when modelling (0.83%) which I assume is noise. What's interesting to note is Eritrean or these Ethiopian populations only jump to 1.67% when I use Sardinian in the model. If I use Croatian instead, they stay at 0.83%.

https://i.imgur.com/JiWdOBw.png

Putting some things together so far:

1. The 100+ Ashkenazi matches all match an East African segment, which certain calculators use an Ethiopian sample for. It's possible this peak’s higher if a calculator uses Ethiopian as the reference, as on Punt's K15 for example, Horn of Africa isn't as high in the chromosome painting, but the reference isn't stated.

2. When doing G25 modelling, the highest scoring/matching African populations are Ethiopian, and are somewhat clustered together around the northern part of the country. I should note I've modeled every African population to see get a clearer picture.

3. The Yemenite populations matched are close to the Horn of Africa, with a history with Ethiopia.

4. The North African populations I match the closest to are closest to Ethiopia.

For those of you with greater knowledge of African and Ashkenazi history, migration and genetics, is Ethiopia a plausible source of the East African? If so, would this be likely from slave trading with North Africa? Once again, I don't know enough about Ashkenazi movement through North Africa/time periods to know how realistic that is.

If I’m completely off, incorrect or if there is another, more logical explanation for these findings, please let me know. I acknowledge the difficulty and guess work when it comes to identifying something small and old, however it’s been awhile since I’ve had some DNA research to sink into. Once the Eurogenes store reopens I plan to get my grandfather’s coordinates.

I attempted a similar process over here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20030-Breaking-down-Polynesian-DNA-components-using-G25-modelling), minus the matches, as Polynesian DNA is easier to trace.

passenger
05-20-2020, 02:38 AM
It's a very interesting question. I'm not sure about your specific case, and hopefully more knowledgeable users will chime in, but I will just say a couple things to start.

First off, in keeping with the study by Moorjani et al., what they refer to as SSA admixture in modern Jewish populations seems to be very ancient, dating back prior to the Western Jewish diaspora, and even prior to the Babylonian exile, so there doesn't seem to be any connection with any of the modern slave trades or even the ancient Roman slave trade. There is always the possibility that SSA admixture was also acquired during the diaspora through intermarriage with other Mediterranean populations that already had SSA admixture. If this occurred during Roman times, it could be common to both Ashkenazim and Sephardim, but there is also the possibility (also considering Moorjani's higher figures for Sephardim) that some Sephardim acquired additional minor SSA admixture in later times, most likely indirectly through intermarriage with SSA admixed North Africans (not that direct input from SSA slaves couldn't have happened, but I doubt it made a very visible population-wide impact).

In terms of the type of SSA connection in Jewish populations, Northeast African seems to be the only one which is very widely present in very small percentages among many Western Jews (Ashkenazim and Sephardim), and I would guess the source is fairly ancient. I've seen Jews score other types of SSA in some calculators, but it doesn't appear to be very consistent or common. If, as the Moorjani study suggests, the main source of SSA in Jews is ancient and common to both Western Jews and Mizrahim, I can only suppose that it comes from Northeast Africa, either through Egypt or via dispersal up the Arabian peninsula (Horn of Africa to Yemen to the Levant).

From the few K36 chromosome reports I've seen of Western Jews, the Northeast African segments that show up (the only SSA to produce segments of any considerable size) show up labelled as Somali or Ethiopian Jewish.

I'd be interested to see what else you turn up and what others have to say.

BalkanKiwi
05-20-2020, 03:00 AM
It's a very interesting question. I'm not sure about your specific case, and hopefully more knowledgeable users will chime in, but I will just say a couple things to start.

First off, in keeping with the study by Moorjani et al., what they refer to as SSA admixture in modern Jewish populations seems to be very ancient, dating back prior to the Western Jewish diaspora, and even prior to the Babylonian exile, so there doesn't seem to be any connection with any of the modern slave trades or even the ancient Roman slave trade. There is always the possibility that SSA admixture was also acquired during the diaspora through intermarriage with other Mediterranean populations that already had SSA admixture. If this occurred during Roman times, it could be common to both Ashkenazim and Sephardim, but there is also the possibility (also considering Moorjani's higher figures for Sephardim) that some Sephardim acquired additional minor SSA admixture in later times, most likely indirectly through intermarriage with SSA admixed North Africans (not that direct input from SSA slaves couldn't have happened, but I doubt it made a very visible population-wide impact).

In terms of the type of SSA connection in Jewish populations, Northeast African seems to be the only one which is very widely present in very small percentages among many Western Jews (Ashkenazim and Sephardim), and I would guess the source is fairly ancient. I've seen Jews score other types of SSA in some calculators, but it doesn't appear to be very consistent or common. If, as the Moorjani study suggests, the main source of SSA in Jews is ancient and common to both Western Jews and Mizrahim, I can only suppose that it comes from Northeast Africa, either through Egypt or via dispersal up the Arabian peninsula (Horn of Africa to Yemen to the Levant).

From the few K36 chromosome reports I've seen of Western Jews, the Northeast African segments that show up (the only SSA to produce segments of any considerable size) show up labelled as Somali or Ethiopian Jewish.

I'd be interested to see what else you turn up and what others have to say.

Thanks for the response! I did consider some of your points when I first saw some of the results. I think Moorjani et al also alludes to the possibility that rather any SSA being "direct", so to speak, someone with SSA admixture came along (as you say, North Africans possibly) and intermarried within the Jewish population. Taking a step back and out of interest, for any SSA to get into the North African population at that point in time, would those of SSA ancestry have been free people, and as such, free to marry into the North African population? On your point about Ethiopian Jewish, I have wondered if all of this is just a false positive, in a sense, and Ethiopian only appears as a signal for Jewish, and therefore there is no East African ancestry. When modelling further south, the only other African populations I score anything on are Ju|'hoan North, Khomani San, Somali in Kenya (all 0.83%), which could be a coincidence and just noise. I wonder if Sardinian elevates the percentage of Ethiopian and Eritrean due to the presence of Jewish admixture in those samples? This is beyond my current level of knowledge, so I'm probably way off.

passenger
05-20-2020, 03:30 AM
Thanks for the response! I did consider some of your points when I first saw some of the results. I think Moorjani et al also alludes to the possibility that rather any SSA being "direct", so to speak, someone with SSA admixture came along (as you say, North Africans possibly) and intermarried within the Jewish population. Taking a step back and out of interest, for any SSA to get into the North African population at that point in time, would those of SSA ancestry have been free people, and as such, free to marry into the North African population? On your point about Ethiopian Jewish, I have wondered if all of this is just a false positive, in a sense, and Ethiopian only appears as a signal for Jewish, and therefore there is no East African ancestry. When modelling further south, the only other African populations I score anything on are Ju|'hoan North, Khomani San, Somali in Kenya (all 0.83%), which could be a coincidence and just noise. I wonder if Sardinian elevates the percentage of Ethiopian and Eritrean due to the presence of Jewish admixture in those samples? This is beyond my current level of knowledge, so I'm probably way off.

I couldn't tell you anything about the modelling, but just taking the first part of your post it really depends at what point that SSA admixture entered the population. For it to be in Ashkenazim, (vs. Sephardim, who never left the Mediterranean and may have acquired later admixture from native North African Jews and non-Jews, for example), then it must be either pre-diasporic, or, being disaporic, must have been acquired during Roman times or shortly thereafter. Besides the presence of actual Subsaharan Africans, both enslaved and free, in the Roman world, you also have to contemplate potential SSA admixture in Mediterranean peoples that diasporic Jews intermarried with. Both Sephardim and Ashkenazim likely descend from the same hybrid Eastern Mediterranean gene pool which had already incorporated a North African (Berber) component before the branches separated, and the ancestors of Ashkenazim largely moved northward away from the Mediterranean world (though they were never completely isolated from it). I'm not very informed on the topic, but it seems there is ancient SSA admixture in Berbers which, demographically speaking, would be a more likely source of input among Jews than the odd Roman-era SSA new arrival to the Mediterranean.

I don't know if any of this is relevant to the particular segment you're talking about. Just considering some general points about the history.

Edit: One other point - in relation to your comment about the "Ethiopian Jewish" segments that I mentioned, I think it's worth pointing out (as some of us have discussed recently on another thread) that Ethiopian Jews are autosomally virtually identical to their non-Jewish neighbors, so I wouldn't discount that as a signal for Jewish ancestry, though maybe there is overlap due to common ancient "Semitic" ancestry.

BalkanKiwi
05-20-2020, 03:46 AM
I couldn't tell you anything about the modelling, but just taking the first part of your post it really depends at what point that SSA admixture entered the population. For it to be in Ashkenazim, (vs. Sephardim, who never left the Mediterranean and may have acquired later admixture from native North African Jews and non-Jews, for example), then it must be either pre-diasporic, or, being disaporic, must have been acquired during Roman times or shortly thereafter. Besides the presence of actual Subsaharan Africans, both enslaved and free, in the Roman world, you also have to contemplate potential SSA admixture in Mediterranean peoples that diasporic Jews intermarried with. Both Sephardim and Ashkenazim likely descend from the same hybrid Eastern Mediterranean gene pool which had already incorporated a North African (Berber) component before the branches separated, and the ancestors of Ashkenazim largely moved northward away from the Mediterranean world (though they were never completely isolated from it). I'm not very informed on the topic, but it seems there is ancient SSA admixture in Berbers which, demographically speaking, would be a more likely source of input among Jews than the odd Roman-era SSA new arrival to the Mediterranean.

I don't know if any of this is relevant to the particular segment you're talking about. Just considering some general points about the history.

Interesting. I forgot to mention as well, I noticed when comparing the matched segments across different calculator chromosome paintings, that SSA and East African seems to cluster with North African along the segment. I'm not sure if that's possibly indicative of the SSA originating from the North African, or if there's another reason why it groups with it.

drobbah
05-20-2020, 04:03 AM
Depends on what type of SSA ancestry we are talking about.If the SSA ancestry showing up in these Jewish samples is Yoruba then it would mean they probably acquired it from NW Africans.If the SSA ancestry showing up is Dinka then it is possible they may have always had it since the days of Egytian occupation of Can3aan (or perhaps older influence from NE Africa) as even modern Levantines (like the Palestinians) besides their Yoruba Islamic slave trade ancestry also show minor Dinka affinities.

BalkanKiwi
05-20-2020, 08:11 AM
I should have included them in the first post, but here are some models using Poi's Runner if interested. Using Vahaduo inflates the percentages too high (>2%). I don't get any Yoruba on Poi's Runner, but Vahaduo gives me 1.2%, which I don't think is correct.

"fit": 1.2917,
"Irish": 56.67,
"English": 35.83,
"Sardinian": 5.83,
"Ethiopian_Tigray": 1.67,

"fit": 1.2973,
"Irish": 57.5,
"English": 35,
"Sardinian": 5.83,
"Eritrean": 1.67,

"fit": 1.3368,
"Irish": 52.5,
"English": 41.67,
"Sardinian": 4.17,
"Ethiopian_Agaw": 1.67,

"fit": 1.3493,
"Irish": 57.5,
"English": 37.5,
"Sardinian": 3.33,
"Ethiopian_Amhara": 1.67,

drobbah
05-20-2020, 10:06 AM
You should run Yoruba,Dinka & ETH_4500 (indigenous horner HG).If you keep on scoring Yoruba over the other two, this would mean you indeed have West African ancestry.

BalkanKiwi
05-20-2020, 10:53 AM
You should run Yoruba,Dinka & ETH_4500 (indigenous horner HG).If you keep on scoring Yoruba over the other two, this would mean you indeed have West African ancestry.

Yoruba seems to stay at noise level. If I compare myself to someone with complete opposite ancestry on Poi's Runner, such as firemonkey, he also gets 0.83%. Comparing Poi's Runner with Vahaduo. The Ethiopian samples and Eritrean sample still remain high.

For example:

Poi's Runner

"fit": 1.4495,
"Irish": 59.17,
"English": 35.83,
"Sardinian": 4.17,
"Yoruba": 0.83,

"fit": 1.3954,
"Irish": 61.67,
"English": 32.5,
"Sardinian": 5.83,
"ETH_4500BP": 0,

"fit": 1.3736,
"Irish": 61.67,
"English": 30.83,
"Sardinian": 7.5,
"Dinka": 0,

Vahaduo (Keeping the samples the samples for consistency)

Distance: 1.8753% / 0.01875334
60.8 English
37.2 Irish
1.6 Sardinian
0.4 Yoruba

Distance: 1.8350% / 0.01835021
61.2 English
36.8 Irish
1.4 Sardinian
0.6 ETH_4500BP

Distance: 1.8543% / 0.01854270
61.0 English
37.0 Irish
1.4 Sardinian
0.6 Dinka

Distance: 1.8179% / 0.01817851
61.6 English
36.6 Irish
1.4 Eritrean
0.4 Sardinian

Distance: 1.8135% / 0.01813454
62.0 English
36.0 Irish
1.4 Ethiopian_Tigray
0.6 Sardinian

Distance: 1.8062% / 0.01806250
61.6 English
36.4 Irish
1.4 Ethiopian_Amhara
0.6 Sardinian

drobbah
05-20-2020, 11:06 AM
Tbh all of the SSA ancestry seems to be at noise levels.I get similar percentages of Oceanian/East Asian ancestry

BalkanKiwi
05-20-2020, 11:44 AM
Tbh all of the SSA ancestry seems to be at noise levels.I get similar percentages of Oceanian/East Asian ancestry

Interesting. How does this tie into all the Ashkenazi matches that share an East African segment.

drobbah
05-20-2020, 12:03 PM
Interesting. How does this tie into all the Ashkenazi matches that share an East African segment.

I don't think Askhenazis have East African ancestry or SSA ancestry at all besides whatever is embedded in the Taforalt which they probably got from the Berbers of NW Africa

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 1.8689% / 0.01868871
45.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
27.0 Steppe
11.0 Levant_Natufian
7.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
7.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.2 East_Asian
1.0 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.6895% / 0.01689488
42.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.4 Steppe
12.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
9.8 Levant_Natufian
6.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 East_Asian
1.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 1.8511% / 0.01851105
42.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
25.0 Steppe
12.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
11.6 Levant_Natufian
7.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.0 East_Asian
1.0 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.6101% / 0.01610090
44.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
25.2 Steppe
11.0 Levant_Natufian
9.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.8 Anatolia_Barcin_C
1.4 East_Asian
0.8 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 1.3761% / 0.01376077
42.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
20.4 Steppe
14.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
13.2 Levant_Natufian
8.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
Distance: 1.3866% / 0.01386610
43.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.0 Steppe
11.6 Levant_Natufian
9.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
7.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.2 East_Asian
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

Anatolia_Barcin_C,0.114961,0.147252,-0.037335,-0.062339,-0.005847,-0.01506,-0.00094,-0.010384,-0.011249,0.025878,0.009581,0.013638,-0.014569,-0.006468,-0.009365,-0.012463,0.009909,-0.006841,-0.002765,-0.011255,0.003369,0.008656,-0.005053,-0.002048,-0.011137
Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
Steppe:I0231,0.122929,0.081242,0.045254,0.11725,-0.035391,0.048806,0.00188,-0.000462,-0.053381,-0.071437,0.003897,0.001649,0.001189,-0.024084,0.031216,0.019888,0.004042,-0.003674,-0.000754,0.013506,-0.003244,-0.008037,0.003204,0.015665,0.001796
Steppe:I0357,0.126344,0.092413,0.038089,0.107883,-0.029852,0.039324,0.00564,-0.008077,-0.043768,-0.065605,-0.001137,-0.00015,-0.003568,-0.024772,0.035287,0.01896,0.00013,0.003167,-0.005279,0.004877,0.003619,0.006925,0.008504,0.012 532,-0.005269
Steppe:I0370,0.124067,0.08632,0.049403,0.111759,-0.027697,0.044623,0.00517,-0.000462,-0.066061,-0.066516,-0.002436,-0.00015,0.000297,-0.025735,0.03868,0.013789,0.000782,-0.000127,-0.005154,0.015758,0.001622,-0.0115,0.007025,0.021328,-0.003952
Steppe:I0429,0.130897,0.088351,0.044123,0.126617,-0.030467,0.050758,0.005875,0.003,-0.059516,-0.075992,0.000974,-0.008992,0.002081,-0.018717,0.039359,0.020949,0.004955,-0.000887,0.003897,0.022636,-0.005615,0.000495,0.020089,0.018798,-0.013651
Steppe:I0438,0.126344,0.085304,0.042615,0.122741,-0.032929,0.048806,-0.002115,0.002077,-0.068925,-0.080548,0.00065,0.002548,-0.00892,-0.029176,0.032437,0.011668,0.002347,-0.005068,-0.006285,0.018009,-0.00025,0.001731,0.021199,0.021328,-0.007185
Steppe:I0439,0.127482,0.096475,0.037335,0.117896,-0.017542,0.038487,0.00329,-0.006,-0.052154,-0.057587,0.001949,-0.000599,-0.007582,-0.02257,0.038273,0.016441,-0.002217,-0.004941,-0.00352,0.018634,-0.001996,0.00643,0.015529,0.02663,-0.00934
Steppe:I0443,0.124067,0.093429,0.039975,0.108206,-0.027082,0.045459,0.003995,-0.007154,-0.052563,-0.081642,0.001299,-3e-04,0.000595,-0.016515,0.044923,0.003978,-0.014212,-0.001394,-0.003771,0.013006,0.00262,0.000247,0.003944,0.0189 18,0.002036
East_Asian:HGDP00747,0.023903,-0.44988,0.013953,-0.059432,0.03693,0.006972,0.00752,0.005769,-0.002659,0.008747,-0.074049,-0.007194,0.011001,-0.014313,-0.011536,-0.006497,-0.001304,0.00152,0.005531,-0.007629,0.019216,-0.020526,0.003944,0.006386,-0.044667
East_Asian:HGDP00748,0.023903,-0.44988,0.012822,-0.064923,0.034468,0.011156,-0.00376,0.000462,-0.008999,0.011116,-0.078596,-0.007044,0.009812,-0.001514,-0.012215,-0.005569,0.002868,0.001014,0.00088,-0.012881,0.024706,-0.007543,0.00419,0.003856,-0.044547
East_Asian:HGDP00749,0.020488,-0.446833,0.014331,-0.055556,0.034776,0.014223,0.00282,-0.000462,-0.003681,0.010205,-0.073075,-0.008542,0.013528,-0.00523,-0.010586,-0.009016,-0.001695,0.004561,-0.001634,-0.00988,0.027826,-0.024112,0.005916,-0.000361,-0.046583
East_Asian:HGDP00750,0.021626,-0.447848,0.01961,-0.058786,0.034776,0.005578,0.006345,0.006,-0.005931,0.009476,-0.070801,-0.008393,0.01219,-0.008808,-0.008822,0.002652,-0.000391,0.003294,0.00088,-0.007754,0.027452,-0.015209,0.004437,0.005302,-0.035685
East_Asian:HGDP00751,0.022765,-0.442771,0.006788,-0.055556,0.0437,0.01255,0.000705,-0.005077,-0.008385,0.011481,-0.071289,-0.006744,0.00773,-0.00867,-0.006379,-0.007558,0.002086,0.00152,0.000754,-0.011756,0.029822,-0.019166,0.002958,-0.000482,-0.042272
Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246


Edit:

Palestinians in comparison with the same source samples
Target: Palestinian:HGDP00690
Distance: 2.4666% / 0.02466645
31.0 Levant_Natufian
25.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
19.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
3.8 Steppe
2.4 Dinka
0.8 Yoruba

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00689
Distance: 3.2909% / 0.03290924
34.2 Levant_Natufian
31.8 Anatolia_Barcin_C
17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
3.6 Steppe
2.6 Yoruba
0.4 Dinka

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00688
Distance: 2.9534% / 0.02953435
28.6 Anatolia_Barcin_C
25.6 Levant_Natufian
17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.8 Steppe
2.8 Yoruba
1.0 Dinka
0.4 East_Asian

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00685
Distance: 2.9052% / 0.02905172
36.8 Levant_Natufian
31.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
15.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
5.4 Yoruba
1.4 Dinka

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00684
Distance: 3.4337% / 0.03433712
43.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
39.4 Levant_Natufian
13.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.4 Steppe
1.2 Yoruba
1.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.8 Dinka

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00683
Distance: 2.7625% / 0.02762549
43.6 Anatolia_Barcin_C
34.2 Levant_Natufian
15.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.4 Yoruba
1.4 Steppe
0.8 Dinka
0.4 East_Asian

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00679
Distance: 3.4422% / 0.03442238
43.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
36.4 Levant_Natufian
16.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 Steppe
1.4 Dinka
0.4 Yoruba

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00677
Distance: 2.6854% / 0.02685382
27.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.2 Levant_Natufian
22.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
4.4 Steppe
2.8 Yoruba
1.2 Dinka

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00676
Distance: 2.7451% / 0.02745122
32.6 Levant_Natufian
23.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
19.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
4.2 Steppe
1.4 Dinka
1.4 Yoruba
0.2 East_Asian

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00675
Distance: 3.3185% / 0.03318498
52.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
29.8 Levant_Natufian
12.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.6 Dinka
2.2 Steppe
1.4 Yoruba

RickW85
05-20-2020, 02:24 PM
Distance: 2.9294% / 0.02929438
54.8 Baltic_EST_BA:s19_V14_2
14.6 MNG_Xiongnu_East_Asian
11.0 ROU_BA

10.4 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
5.4 Yoruba
2.0 MAR_EN
1.6 ETH_4500BP
0.2 Dinka
0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.0 MAR_Taforalt
0.0 Levant_Natufian

RickW85
05-20-2020, 02:31 PM
With Gedmatch my Mother is 32% Libyan Jewish, my Father is 8% Moroccan Jewish

passenger
05-20-2020, 05:25 PM
I don't think Askhenazis have East African ancestry or SSA ancestry at all besides whatever is embedded in the Taforalt which they probably got from the Berbers of NW Africa

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 1.8689% / 0.01868871
45.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
27.0 Steppe
11.0 Levant_Natufian
7.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
7.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.2 East_Asian
1.0 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.6895% / 0.01689488
42.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.4 Steppe
12.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
9.8 Levant_Natufian
6.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 East_Asian
1.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 1.8511% / 0.01851105
42.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
25.0 Steppe
12.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
11.6 Levant_Natufian
7.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.0 East_Asian
1.0 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.6101% / 0.01610090
44.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
25.2 Steppe
11.0 Levant_Natufian
9.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.8 Anatolia_Barcin_C
1.4 East_Asian
0.8 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 1.3761% / 0.01376077
42.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
20.4 Steppe
14.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
13.2 Levant_Natufian
8.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
Distance: 1.3866% / 0.01386610
43.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.0 Steppe
11.6 Levant_Natufian
9.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
7.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.2 East_Asian
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

Anatolia_Barcin_C,0.114961,0.147252,-0.037335,-0.062339,-0.005847,-0.01506,-0.00094,-0.010384,-0.011249,0.025878,0.009581,0.013638,-0.014569,-0.006468,-0.009365,-0.012463,0.009909,-0.006841,-0.002765,-0.011255,0.003369,0.008656,-0.005053,-0.002048,-0.011137
Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
Steppe:I0231,0.122929,0.081242,0.045254,0.11725,-0.035391,0.048806,0.00188,-0.000462,-0.053381,-0.071437,0.003897,0.001649,0.001189,-0.024084,0.031216,0.019888,0.004042,-0.003674,-0.000754,0.013506,-0.003244,-0.008037,0.003204,0.015665,0.001796
Steppe:I0357,0.126344,0.092413,0.038089,0.107883,-0.029852,0.039324,0.00564,-0.008077,-0.043768,-0.065605,-0.001137,-0.00015,-0.003568,-0.024772,0.035287,0.01896,0.00013,0.003167,-0.005279,0.004877,0.003619,0.006925,0.008504,0.012 532,-0.005269
Steppe:I0370,0.124067,0.08632,0.049403,0.111759,-0.027697,0.044623,0.00517,-0.000462,-0.066061,-0.066516,-0.002436,-0.00015,0.000297,-0.025735,0.03868,0.013789,0.000782,-0.000127,-0.005154,0.015758,0.001622,-0.0115,0.007025,0.021328,-0.003952
Steppe:I0429,0.130897,0.088351,0.044123,0.126617,-0.030467,0.050758,0.005875,0.003,-0.059516,-0.075992,0.000974,-0.008992,0.002081,-0.018717,0.039359,0.020949,0.004955,-0.000887,0.003897,0.022636,-0.005615,0.000495,0.020089,0.018798,-0.013651
Steppe:I0438,0.126344,0.085304,0.042615,0.122741,-0.032929,0.048806,-0.002115,0.002077,-0.068925,-0.080548,0.00065,0.002548,-0.00892,-0.029176,0.032437,0.011668,0.002347,-0.005068,-0.006285,0.018009,-0.00025,0.001731,0.021199,0.021328,-0.007185
Steppe:I0439,0.127482,0.096475,0.037335,0.117896,-0.017542,0.038487,0.00329,-0.006,-0.052154,-0.057587,0.001949,-0.000599,-0.007582,-0.02257,0.038273,0.016441,-0.002217,-0.004941,-0.00352,0.018634,-0.001996,0.00643,0.015529,0.02663,-0.00934
Steppe:I0443,0.124067,0.093429,0.039975,0.108206,-0.027082,0.045459,0.003995,-0.007154,-0.052563,-0.081642,0.001299,-3e-04,0.000595,-0.016515,0.044923,0.003978,-0.014212,-0.001394,-0.003771,0.013006,0.00262,0.000247,0.003944,0.0189 18,0.002036
East_Asian:HGDP00747,0.023903,-0.44988,0.013953,-0.059432,0.03693,0.006972,0.00752,0.005769,-0.002659,0.008747,-0.074049,-0.007194,0.011001,-0.014313,-0.011536,-0.006497,-0.001304,0.00152,0.005531,-0.007629,0.019216,-0.020526,0.003944,0.006386,-0.044667
East_Asian:HGDP00748,0.023903,-0.44988,0.012822,-0.064923,0.034468,0.011156,-0.00376,0.000462,-0.008999,0.011116,-0.078596,-0.007044,0.009812,-0.001514,-0.012215,-0.005569,0.002868,0.001014,0.00088,-0.012881,0.024706,-0.007543,0.00419,0.003856,-0.044547
East_Asian:HGDP00749,0.020488,-0.446833,0.014331,-0.055556,0.034776,0.014223,0.00282,-0.000462,-0.003681,0.010205,-0.073075,-0.008542,0.013528,-0.00523,-0.010586,-0.009016,-0.001695,0.004561,-0.001634,-0.00988,0.027826,-0.024112,0.005916,-0.000361,-0.046583
East_Asian:HGDP00750,0.021626,-0.447848,0.01961,-0.058786,0.034776,0.005578,0.006345,0.006,-0.005931,0.009476,-0.070801,-0.008393,0.01219,-0.008808,-0.008822,0.002652,-0.000391,0.003294,0.00088,-0.007754,0.027452,-0.015209,0.004437,0.005302,-0.035685
East_Asian:HGDP00751,0.022765,-0.442771,0.006788,-0.055556,0.0437,0.01255,0.000705,-0.005077,-0.008385,0.011481,-0.071289,-0.006744,0.00773,-0.00867,-0.006379,-0.007558,0.002086,0.00152,0.000754,-0.011756,0.029822,-0.019166,0.002958,-0.000482,-0.042272
Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246


Edit:

Palestinians in comparison with the same source samples
Target: Palestinian:HGDP00690
Distance: 2.4666% / 0.02466645
31.0 Levant_Natufian
25.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
19.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
3.8 Steppe
2.4 Dinka
0.8 Yoruba

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00689
Distance: 3.2909% / 0.03290924
34.2 Levant_Natufian
31.8 Anatolia_Barcin_C
17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
3.6 Steppe
2.6 Yoruba
0.4 Dinka

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00688
Distance: 2.9534% / 0.02953435
28.6 Anatolia_Barcin_C
25.6 Levant_Natufian
17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.8 Steppe
2.8 Yoruba
1.0 Dinka
0.4 East_Asian

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00685
Distance: 2.9052% / 0.02905172
36.8 Levant_Natufian
31.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
15.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
5.4 Yoruba
1.4 Dinka

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00684
Distance: 3.4337% / 0.03433712
43.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
39.4 Levant_Natufian
13.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.4 Steppe
1.2 Yoruba
1.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.8 Dinka

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00683
Distance: 2.7625% / 0.02762549
43.6 Anatolia_Barcin_C
34.2 Levant_Natufian
15.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.4 Yoruba
1.4 Steppe
0.8 Dinka
0.4 East_Asian

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00679
Distance: 3.4422% / 0.03442238
43.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
36.4 Levant_Natufian
16.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 Steppe
1.4 Dinka
0.4 Yoruba

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00677
Distance: 2.6854% / 0.02685382
27.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.2 Levant_Natufian
22.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
4.4 Steppe
2.8 Yoruba
1.2 Dinka

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00676
Distance: 2.7451% / 0.02745122
32.6 Levant_Natufian
23.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
19.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
4.2 Steppe
1.4 Dinka
1.4 Yoruba
0.2 East_Asian

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00675
Distance: 3.3185% / 0.03318498
52.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
29.8 Levant_Natufian
12.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.6 Dinka
2.2 Steppe
1.4 Yoruba


Makes sense on the whole. It seems almost certain that there is at least a minor degree of ancient SSA embedded within the Berber ancestry common to Western Jews, and it makes sense that any population-wide SSA in Jewish populations would be ancient and embedded within other more immediate source populations. However, I'm curious about the SSA that Moorjani apparently detected in Mizrahi Jews, which would be prior to the Western Jewish diaspora and would not come through any Berber source. Have you tried running models with Iraqi Jews?

drobbah
05-20-2020, 06:15 PM
Makes sense on the whole. It seems almost certain that there is at least a minor degree of ancient SSA embedded within the Berber ancestry common to Western Jews, and it makes sense that any population-wide SSA in Jewish populations would be ancient and embedded within other more immediate source populations. However, I'm curious about the SSA that Moorjani apparently detected in Mizrahi Jews, which would be prior to the Western Jewish diaspora and would not come through any Berber source. Have you tried running models with Iraqi Jews?

Iraqi & Iranian Jews don't seem to have any SSA whatsoever but the NA Jews definitely do as they score both Yoruba and Taforalt.


Iraqi & Iranian Jews

Target: Iranian_Jew
Distance: 2.7085% / 0.02708471
58.8 Anatolia_Barcin_C
24.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.6 Levant_Natufian
2.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.4 Steppe

Target: Iraqi_Jew
Distance: 3.2272% / 0.03227210
49.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
24.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.0 Levant_Natufian
10.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N



North African Jews
Target: Libyan_Jew
Distance: 1.9097% / 0.01909692
33.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
22.6 Anatolia_Barcin_C
17.4 Levant_Natufian
12.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 Steppe
4.8 MAR_Taforalt
1.2 Yoruba

Target: Moroccan_Jew
Distance: 2.2196% / 0.02219564
33.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
25.6 Anatolia_Barcin_C
14.0 Steppe
11.4 Levant_Natufian
7.8 MAR_Taforalt
7.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Tunisian_Jew
Distance: 2.1166% / 0.02116569
30.8 Anatolia_Barcin_C
29.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.4 Levant_Natufian
9.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.0 Steppe
5.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.0 Yoruba



Samaritan,Syrian Jew & Karaite Egypt
Target: Karaite_Egypt
Distance: 3.0211% / 0.03021106
53.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
21.2 Levant_Natufian
13.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
3.2 Steppe
1.0 Yoruba

Target: Samaritan
Distance: 3.5737% / 0.03573652
39.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
30.0 Levant_Natufian
16.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N


Target: Syrian_Jew
Distance: 2.0333% / 0.02033268
47.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
17.0 Levant_Natufian
15.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
11.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.6 Steppe
1.0 MAR_Taforalt
0.2 Yoruba

passenger
05-20-2020, 11:15 PM
I'm curious where youtuber Masaman gets these percentages from. Any idea?

37671

BalkanKiwi
05-20-2020, 11:57 PM
Thanks for the insight. Once again I've never looked into African genetics until this week, so much appreciated. If that's the case, is it still worth looking into this more, or am I essentially looking for nothing and I shouldn't waste any more time on it.

passenger
05-21-2020, 03:27 AM
Thanks for the insight. Once again I've never looked into African genetics until this week, so much appreciated. If that's the case, is it still worth looking into this more, or am I essentially looking for nothing and I shouldn't waste any more time on it.

I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. Are you just trying to make sure that the SSA is associated with your grandfather's Ashkenazi ancestry? Or are you trying to pinpoint the exact source of that ancestry within Africa?

Also, were the numbers your posted before from the nMonte runner yours or your grandfather's?

I don't know that you'll be able to pinpoint the source of the ancestry, but it could be fun to try. I'm not at all sure that what is detected as SSA in Moorjani's study is linked to the Northeast African (Horn of Africa pops) which shows up for Western Jews in some calculators, or if the latter is just overlap from shared Semitic ancestry. Both my mom and I often get Yemenite in certain calculators and G25 models, and I wonder whether Horn African might just be a "byproduct" of that.

Oddly enough, the runner numbers you posted are reminiscent of my dad's. Both he and I tend to get tiny Horn African percentages in G25, and my dad also gets around 1-2% of some Arabian population (usually Yemeni), even though his known ancestry is almost entirely NW European.

My mom usually doesn't get any SSA in modern G25 models, unless I start removing populations. For instance, if I remove all of the North African Jewish and non-Jewish samples from the full sheet of Modern Averages, she gets 0.2% Mbuti and 0.2% Fulani, which doesn't really change, even if I take of out all the Western Jewish averages. SSA only goes up for her if I take out all the Levantine and Arabian averages as well, and she gets 2% Eritrean, in addition to the Fulani, but that's probably mostly a stand-in for some of the missing Semitic. If I keep taking away all other Mediterranean basin and Mizrahi populations, the Eritrean goes up a bit, but seems to max out at around 6%.

BalkanKiwi
05-21-2020, 03:41 AM
I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. Are you just trying to make sure that the SSA is associated with your grandfather's Ashkenazi ancestry? Or are you trying to pinpoint the exact source of that ancestry within Africa?

Also, were the numbers your posted before from the nMonte runner yours or your grandfather's?

I don't know that you'll be able to pinpoint the source of the ancestry, but it could be fun to try. I'm not at all sure that what is detected as SSA in Moorjani's study is linked to the Northeast African (Horn of Africa pops) which shows up for Western Jews in some calculators, or if the latter is just overlap from shared Semitic ancestry. Both my mom and I often get Yemenite in certain calculators and G25 models, and I wonder whether Horn African might just be a "byproduct" of that.

Oddly enough, the runner numbers you posted are reminiscent of my dad's. Both he and I tend to get tiny Horn African percentages in G25, and my dad also gets around 1-2% of some Arabian population (usually Yemeni), even though his known ancestry is almost entirely NW European.

My mom usually doesn't get any SSA in modern G25 models, unless I start removing populations. For instance, if I remove all of the North African Jewish and non-Jewish samples from the full sheet of Modern Averages, she gets 0.2% Mbuti and 0.2% Fulani, which doesn't really change, even if I take of out all the Western Jewish averages. SSA only goes up for her if I take out all the Levantine and Arabian averages as well, and she gets 2% Eritrean, in addition to the Fulani, but that's probably mostly a stand-in for some of the missing Semitic. If I keep taking away all other Mediterranean basin and Mizrahi populations, the Eritrean goes up a bit, but seems to max out at around 6%.

I was attempting to locate the source of the SSA within Africa, which I considered a fun challenge to attempt, however it sounds like it may be an unnecessary task, especially if your father is NW European and gets the same numbers as me. Those nMonte runner numbers are mine. Once the Eurogenes store reopens I was planning to get my grandfather's coordinates and see if modelling him shows anything interesting. At most I expect may 1-2% more than me for some of the populations.

passenger
05-21-2020, 04:08 AM
I was attempting to locate the source of the SSA within Africa, which I considered a fun challenge to attempt, however it sounds like it may be an unnecessary task, especially if your father is NW European and gets the same numbers as me. Those nMonte runner numbers are mine. Once the Eurogenes store reopens I was planning to get my grandfather's coordinates and see if modelling him shows anything interesting. At most I expect may 1-2% more than me for some of the populations.

Maybe not, but it's interesting. I'm also curious about why my dad gets those percentages, since they're pretty consistent and don't show up for everyone with his kind of background.

RickW85
05-21-2020, 04:12 AM
This is better model for me

Distance: 1.9330% / 0.01933038
38.8 Baltic_EST_BA:s19_V14_2
20.0 Greek_Central_Macedonia
18.8 Nogai
9.4 GRC_N:I5427
4.6 RUS_Ingria_IA:VIII5_2
3.0 Bantu_Kenya
2.8 Ethiopian_Oromo
2.6 Bantu_S.W.

BalkanKiwi
05-21-2020, 04:18 AM
Maybe not, but it's interesting. I'm also curious about why my dad gets those percentages, since they're pretty consistent and don't show up for everyone with his kind of background.

Yes, that's interesting. Are there any lines that aren't too well researched, or have you got a pretty detailed tree? I'm also planning to get my grandmother's coordinates, so I can do better Oceanic modelling instead of using my own limit data.

passenger
05-21-2020, 04:44 AM
Yes, that's interesting. Are there any lines that aren't too well researched, or have you got a pretty detailed tree? I'm also planning to get my grandmother's coordinates, so I can do better Oceanic modelling instead of using my own limit data.

That should be interesting.

I've been able to research most of my father's lines at least back to the 18th century, and some much farther, though a few dead-end in the early 19th century. About 70% of his ancestry is colonial American - predominantly English and Dutch, but also German, Irish, Scottish and French. His non-colonial immigrant ancestry comes from a Dutch great-grandfather, a Danish great-grandmother and a German 3x great-grandmother. The only non NW Euro ancestry I've identified comes from one of his New Netherland ancestors, who was actually partly Tuscan, and is our ancestor on three different lines. He's pretty much completely NW European in the commercial tests he's done (Ancestry, MH and FTDNA), except his original Ancestry DNA results gave him trace regions in Italy and the Caucasus, and MH gives him 1% Middle Eastern, which I'd basically written off as nonsense, though it's curious now that I see his G25 results.

BalkanKiwi
05-21-2020, 06:13 AM
That should be interesting.

I've been able to research most of my father's lines at least back to the 18th century, and some much farther, though a few dead-end in the early 19th century. About 70% of his ancestry is colonial American - predominantly English and Dutch, but also German, Irish, Scottish and French. His non-colonial immigrant ancestry comes from a Dutch great-grandfather, a Danish great-grandmother and a German 3x great-grandmother. The only non NW Euro ancestry I've identified comes from one of his New Netherland ancestors, who was actually partly Tuscan, and is our ancestor on three different lines. He's pretty much completely NW European in the commercial tests he's done (Ancestry, MH and FTDNA), except his original Ancestry DNA results gave him trace regions in Italy and the Caucuses, and MH gives him 1% Middle Eastern, which I'd basically written off as nonsense, though it's curious now that I see his G25 results.

You have an interesting family tree that's for sure. Just out of interest, I see you have a Turkish flag. Is that ancestry from your mother's side? Perhaps the G25 can be used to solve part of the puzzle, or at very least, throw up more questions than answers as it seems to do. It sounds like there could be something real there that its picking up.

Erikl86
05-21-2020, 01:36 PM
I'm curious where youtuber Masaman gets these percentages from. Any idea?

37671

This looks wrong.

passenger
05-21-2020, 03:26 PM
This looks wrong.

Could be, but why do you say that?

passenger
05-21-2020, 03:30 PM
You have an interesting family tree that's for sure. Just out of interest, I see you have a Turkish flag. Is that ancestry from your mother's side? Perhaps the G25 can be used to solve part of the puzzle, or at very least, throw up more questions than answers as it seems to do. It sounds like there could be something real there that its picking up.

We'll see. So far G25 hasn't helped me figure anything out, but it's fun to play around with.

The Turkish flag is there to represent ancestry from my mother's grandmother who was a Sephardic Jew from Ottoman Turkey. Her other grandparents were Ashkenazim from what is now Ukraine.

Seabass
05-21-2020, 03:51 PM
Regarding Masamans bar chart, not sure about the African components or what sort of Mediterranean DNA is absorbed by the 'European', but I'm so far of the belief approximately 40% of Ashkenazi Jewish origins probably trace back to the Levant, Egypt and Maghreb. I also feel the same can be said for Eastern Sephardim. For other Western Jews, it can be much higher.

SUPREEEEEME
05-21-2020, 04:02 PM
Recently did some models of myself:

Modern (using some components from my latest model):
DISTANCE: 2.2423
39.4% Samaritan-Lebanese-Druze
19.6% Greek Thessaly
17.8% Bergamo-Lombardy-Veneto-Piedmont
16.2% Shetlandic (interpreted as Germanic-like ancestry)
5.4% Saharawi-Mozabite-Moroccan
1% Japanese
0.6% Gupta

Bronze Age:
DISTANCE: 2.6637
37.4% Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA
21% NLD_BA
12.6% Bell_Beaker_ITA
11.4% GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
7.8% Canary_Islands_Guanche
5.8% Baltic_LVA_BA
2.8% IRN_Shahr_Sokhta_BA1
1.2% JPN_Jomon

passenger
05-21-2020, 04:11 PM
Regarding Masamans bar chart, not sure about the African components or what sort of Mediterranean DNA is absorbed by the 'European', but I'm so far of the belief approximately 40% of Ashkenazi Jewish origins probably trace back to the Levant, Egypt and Maghreb. I also feel the same can be said for Eastern Sephardim. For other Western Jews, it can be much higher.

I usually say anywhere in the range of 40/60 - 60/40 "MENA" vs. "European" for Western Jews, depending on the individual and their precise background, but of course it also depends which time period you're looking at for those ancestral components. In that respect Masaman's bar graph doesn't look that far off, but I'm not sure about the details.

Caius Agrippa
05-21-2020, 05:10 PM
Most of the ''SSA'' scored by Western Jews is very ancient and mediated through North Africa. Even when they score minor Yoruba or other type of African in G25 it's likely to have come from a Taforalt-like source instead of direct sub-saharan admixture. G25 is very fine but it still has limitations in the samples, there's only one Taforalt-like sample... I noted this because I should score minor percentages of both (Taforalt and SSA) and it got mistaken by calculators all the time (and I have good estimates with formal methods, so I know more or less what % I have of both). I've seen this happening with some Iberian peninsula people, scoring lower amounts of Taforalt than what is reasonable and scoring additional Yoruba or other West African instead. When more Ancient North African samples become available I suppose a lot if not all of the sub-saharan scored by Jews and other populations with North African admixture will disappear.

jonahst
05-21-2020, 05:52 PM
Could be, but why do you say that?

I think at first glance, if we assume that most of the "European" is Mediterranean, this chart doesn't look terrible. But in another video, he has a chart comparing different Jewish populations, and it's a mess. I think he makes these, but I'm not sure what source data he's using.

https://i.imgur.com/uJIQBrv.jpg

I like Masaman overall, but he gets a lot of things wrong. For instance, he's repeatedly overestimated the genetic contribution of Crusaders to Lebanese Christians. I'm not as familiar with most of the subjects he talks about, but if his videos on Jewish, Mediterranean, and MENA populations are any indication, then he has a lot of room for improvement.

BalkanKiwi
05-21-2020, 09:51 PM
I've quickly played around with Taforalt in modelling out of curiosity, and I only get noise levels (0.83% on Poi's Runner, 0.4-0.6% on Vahaduo).

coffeeprince
05-22-2020, 03:06 PM
Recently did some models of myself:

Modern (using some components from my latest model):
DISTANCE: 2.2423
39.4% Samaritan-Lebanese-Druze
19.6% Greek Thessaly
17.8% Bergamo-Lombardy-Veneto-Piedmont
16.2% Shetlandic (interpreted as Germanic-like ancestry)
5.4% Saharawi-Mozabite-Moroccan
1% Japanese
0.6% Gupta

Bronze Age:
DISTANCE: 2.6637
37.4% Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA
21% NLD_BA
12.6% Bell_Beaker_ITA
11.4% GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
7.8% Canary_Islands_Guanche
5.8% Baltic_LVA_BA
2.8% IRN_Shahr_Sokhta_BA1
1.2% JPN_Jomon

Why do you get Japanese and Jomon?
Is that G25 picking those populations for you or you actually chose Japanese as an ancestral component? Would it have been better to use Han Chinese?

Claudio
05-28-2020, 07:49 AM
Makes sense on the whole. It seems almost certain that there is at least a minor degree of ancient SSA embedded within the Berber ancestry common to Western Jews, and it makes sense that any population-wide SSA in Jewish populations would be ancient and embedded within other more immediate source populations. However, I'm curious about the SSA that Moorjani apparently detected in Mizrahi Jews, which would be prior to the Western Jewish diaspora and would not come through any Berber source. Have you tried running models with Iraqi Jews?

Don't think Palestinian Christians on G25 score the same Dinka % As Palestinian Muslims.
If I remmember correctly Palestinian Christians were recently modeled as 96% Levant_LBN_Roman.
37777

SUPREEEEEME
05-28-2020, 08:23 AM
Why do you get Japanese and Jomon?
Is that G25 picking those populations for you or you actually chose Japanese as an ancestral component? Would it have been better to use Han Chinese?

I just used them both as an East Asian Proxy. Han might be better - but not sure which to choose. I always seem to get a little East Asian on G25, so I chose to use them when modelling myself.

Erikl86
06-01-2020, 09:06 AM
Oops, wrong thread

jkotl0327
06-04-2020, 11:43 AM
I don't think Askhenazis have East African ancestry or SSA ancestry at all besides whatever is embedded in the Taforalt which they probably got from the Berbers of NW Africa

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 1.8689% / 0.01868871
45.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
27.0 Steppe
11.0 Levant_Natufian
7.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
7.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.2 East_Asian
1.0 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.6895% / 0.01689488
42.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.4 Steppe
12.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
9.8 Levant_Natufian
6.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 East_Asian
1.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 1.8511% / 0.01851105
42.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
25.0 Steppe
12.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
11.6 Levant_Natufian
7.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.0 East_Asian
1.0 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.6101% / 0.01610090
44.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
25.2 Steppe
11.0 Levant_Natufian
9.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.8 Anatolia_Barcin_C
1.4 East_Asian
0.8 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 1.3761% / 0.01376077
42.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
20.4 Steppe
14.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
13.2 Levant_Natufian
8.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
Distance: 1.3866% / 0.01386610
43.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.0 Steppe
11.6 Levant_Natufian
9.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
7.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.2 East_Asian
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

Anatolia_Barcin_C,0.114961,0.147252,-0.037335,-0.062339,-0.005847,-0.01506,-0.00094,-0.010384,-0.011249,0.025878,0.009581,0.013638,-0.014569,-0.006468,-0.009365,-0.012463,0.009909,-0.006841,-0.002765,-0.011255,0.003369,0.008656,-0.005053,-0.002048,-0.011137
Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
Steppe:I0231,0.122929,0.081242,0.045254,0.11725,-0.035391,0.048806,0.00188,-0.000462,-0.053381,-0.071437,0.003897,0.001649,0.001189,-0.024084,0.031216,0.019888,0.004042,-0.003674,-0.000754,0.013506,-0.003244,-0.008037,0.003204,0.015665,0.001796
Steppe:I0357,0.126344,0.092413,0.038089,0.107883,-0.029852,0.039324,0.00564,-0.008077,-0.043768,-0.065605,-0.001137,-0.00015,-0.003568,-0.024772,0.035287,0.01896,0.00013,0.003167,-0.005279,0.004877,0.003619,0.006925,0.008504,0.012 532,-0.005269
Steppe:I0370,0.124067,0.08632,0.049403,0.111759,-0.027697,0.044623,0.00517,-0.000462,-0.066061,-0.066516,-0.002436,-0.00015,0.000297,-0.025735,0.03868,0.013789,0.000782,-0.000127,-0.005154,0.015758,0.001622,-0.0115,0.007025,0.021328,-0.003952
Steppe:I0429,0.130897,0.088351,0.044123,0.126617,-0.030467,0.050758,0.005875,0.003,-0.059516,-0.075992,0.000974,-0.008992,0.002081,-0.018717,0.039359,0.020949,0.004955,-0.000887,0.003897,0.022636,-0.005615,0.000495,0.020089,0.018798,-0.013651
Steppe:I0438,0.126344,0.085304,0.042615,0.122741,-0.032929,0.048806,-0.002115,0.002077,-0.068925,-0.080548,0.00065,0.002548,-0.00892,-0.029176,0.032437,0.011668,0.002347,-0.005068,-0.006285,0.018009,-0.00025,0.001731,0.021199,0.021328,-0.007185
Steppe:I0439,0.127482,0.096475,0.037335,0.117896,-0.017542,0.038487,0.00329,-0.006,-0.052154,-0.057587,0.001949,-0.000599,-0.007582,-0.02257,0.038273,0.016441,-0.002217,-0.004941,-0.00352,0.018634,-0.001996,0.00643,0.015529,0.02663,-0.00934
Steppe:I0443,0.124067,0.093429,0.039975,0.108206,-0.027082,0.045459,0.003995,-0.007154,-0.052563,-0.081642,0.001299,-3e-04,0.000595,-0.016515,0.044923,0.003978,-0.014212,-0.001394,-0.003771,0.013006,0.00262,0.000247,0.003944,0.0189 18,0.002036
East_Asian:HGDP00747,0.023903,-0.44988,0.013953,-0.059432,0.03693,0.006972,0.00752,0.005769,-0.002659,0.008747,-0.074049,-0.007194,0.011001,-0.014313,-0.011536,-0.006497,-0.001304,0.00152,0.005531,-0.007629,0.019216,-0.020526,0.003944,0.006386,-0.044667
East_Asian:HGDP00748,0.023903,-0.44988,0.012822,-0.064923,0.034468,0.011156,-0.00376,0.000462,-0.008999,0.011116,-0.078596,-0.007044,0.009812,-0.001514,-0.012215,-0.005569,0.002868,0.001014,0.00088,-0.012881,0.024706,-0.007543,0.00419,0.003856,-0.044547
East_Asian:HGDP00749,0.020488,-0.446833,0.014331,-0.055556,0.034776,0.014223,0.00282,-0.000462,-0.003681,0.010205,-0.073075,-0.008542,0.013528,-0.00523,-0.010586,-0.009016,-0.001695,0.004561,-0.001634,-0.00988,0.027826,-0.024112,0.005916,-0.000361,-0.046583
East_Asian:HGDP00750,0.021626,-0.447848,0.01961,-0.058786,0.034776,0.005578,0.006345,0.006,-0.005931,0.009476,-0.070801,-0.008393,0.01219,-0.008808,-0.008822,0.002652,-0.000391,0.003294,0.00088,-0.007754,0.027452,-0.015209,0.004437,0.005302,-0.035685
East_Asian:HGDP00751,0.022765,-0.442771,0.006788,-0.055556,0.0437,0.01255,0.000705,-0.005077,-0.008385,0.011481,-0.071289,-0.006744,0.00773,-0.00867,-0.006379,-0.007558,0.002086,0.00152,0.000754,-0.011756,0.029822,-0.019166,0.002958,-0.000482,-0.042272
Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246


Edit:

Palestinians in comparison with the same source samples
Target: Palestinian:HGDP00690
Distance: 2.4666% / 0.02466645
31.0 Levant_Natufian
25.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
19.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
3.8 Steppe
2.4 Dinka
0.8 Yoruba

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00689
Distance: 3.2909% / 0.03290924
34.2 Levant_Natufian
31.8 Anatolia_Barcin_C
17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
3.6 Steppe
2.6 Yoruba
0.4 Dinka

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00688
Distance: 2.9534% / 0.02953435
28.6 Anatolia_Barcin_C
25.6 Levant_Natufian
17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
7.8 Steppe
2.8 Yoruba
1.0 Dinka
0.4 East_Asian

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00685
Distance: 2.9052% / 0.02905172
36.8 Levant_Natufian
31.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
15.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
5.4 Yoruba
1.4 Dinka

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00684
Distance: 3.4337% / 0.03433712
43.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
39.4 Levant_Natufian
13.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.4 Steppe
1.2 Yoruba
1.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.8 Dinka

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00683
Distance: 2.7625% / 0.02762549
43.6 Anatolia_Barcin_C
34.2 Levant_Natufian
15.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.4 Yoruba
1.4 Steppe
0.8 Dinka
0.4 East_Asian

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00679
Distance: 3.4422% / 0.03442238
43.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
36.4 Levant_Natufian
16.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 Steppe
1.4 Dinka
0.4 Yoruba

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00677
Distance: 2.6854% / 0.02685382
27.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
26.2 Levant_Natufian
22.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
4.4 Steppe
2.8 Yoruba
1.2 Dinka

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00676
Distance: 2.7451% / 0.02745122
32.6 Levant_Natufian
23.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
19.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
4.2 Steppe
1.4 Dinka
1.4 Yoruba
0.2 East_Asian

Target: Palestinian:HGDP00675
Distance: 3.3185% / 0.03318498
52.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
29.8 Levant_Natufian
12.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.6 Dinka
2.2 Steppe
1.4 Yoruba


The recent Agranat-Tamir bronze age levant paper and people’s individual GEDMATCH results seem to confirm that most Jewish groups have about 3.5% African ancestry, which I think is probably from ancient semitic trading ties with Ethiopia.

jkotl0327
06-04-2020, 11:46 AM
Don't think Palestinian Christians on G25 score the same Dinka % As Palestinian Muslims.
If I remmember correctly Palestinian Christians were recently modeled as 96% Levant_LBN_Roman.
37777

Where is the Levant LBN Roman component derived from?

drobbah
06-04-2020, 01:50 PM
The recent Agranat-Tamir bronze age levant paper and people’s individual GEDMATCH results seem to confirm that most Jewish groups have about 3.5% African ancestry, which I think is probably from ancient semitic trading ties with Ethiopia.
Vast majority of Jews don't have African ancestry with the exception of North African Jews

BalkanKiwi
07-03-2020, 10:20 AM
As promised, now that I have my grandfather's coordinates and by using GenoPlot, I've done some investigating and modelling. To begin with, my grandfather isn't as mixed as me, which makes modelling him somewhat easier. I've taken some advice from this thread and from the findings of myself to construct his models.

I initially ran an OptimaFit and included a number of SSA populations, some of which that either I score some of, or may be directly or indirectly connected to Jewish, such as Yoruba.

https://i.imgur.com/maHzhvq.jpg

Scaled OptimaFit results with penalty

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.5914
Results:Scottish99.4
Ethiopian Amhara0.6

Unscaled OptimaFit results with penalty

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:0.7362
Results:Irish37
English30.5
Scottish29.5
Ethiopian Amhara1.5
Ethiopian Tigray1
Yoruba0.5

The Ethiopian populations stay consistent with what comes up for me, however he scores slightly more, especially Yoruba. I then took these findings and used them as the basis for modelling.

Unscaled models with penalty

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:0.7198
Results:Irish37.5
Scottish30.5
English29
Ethiopian Amhara3

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:0.7213
Results:Irish37
English31
Scottish29.5
Ethiopian Tigray2.5

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:0.8011
Results:Irish37
English33.5
Scottish28.5
Yoruba1

Scaled models with penalty

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.3487
Results:English36.5
Irish35
Scottish27.5
Ethiopian Amhara1

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.3484
Results:English35.5
Irish35.5
Scottish28
Ethiopian Tigray1

It is easy to assume all of this is noise, however my Polynesian is around some of these numbers, and in fact even if I do unscaled with penalty, I still don't get over 2% for any Oceanian/SE population, let alone 3% for an Ethiopian population. Because of this I find it difficult to brush these findings off straight away.

After some good discussions in this thread, and after seeing some of these results, which I intend to explore more, can we assume that it is possible that we inherited very minor SSA from somewhere?

jkotl0327
07-03-2020, 04:41 PM
Vast majority of Jews don't have African ancestry with the exception of North African Jews

There seems to be an ancient E-African derived source. The modern-day Arabs obviously have more due to the Arab slave trade, but a more ancient component seems to have resulted in Jews having a small amount of African ancestry.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2011Moorjani_PLOS.pdf
It's an old study but the data is still valid. Just look at Eurogenes k13 averages and you'll see that Jews have a little bit of not just NE African but sub-saharan too.

Also Ashkenazim can have mtdna haplogroup L.

drobbah
07-03-2020, 09:27 PM
There seems to be an ancient E-African derived source. The modern-day Arabs obviously have more due to the Arab slave trade, but a more ancient component seems to have resulted in Jews having a small amount of African ancestry.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2011Moorjani_PLOS.pdf
It's an old study but the data is still valid. Just look at Eurogenes k13 averages and you'll see that Jews have a little bit of not just NE African but sub-saharan too.

Also Ashkenazim can have mtdna haplogroup L.
The vast majority of Jews have North African ancestry (except the Yemenites) but only the Yemenites and the North African Jews show any SSA whether Eastern Dinka or the Western Yoruba.


Askhenazi G25
Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.7577% / 0.00757726
22.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
14.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
12.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
12.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
11.8 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
10.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
5.2 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
5.0 KAZ_Turk
3.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA
1.2 MAR_Taforalt
0.4 Levant_PPNC

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 0.7381% / 0.00738123
33.6 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
28.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
11.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
9.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
5.6 KAZ_Turk
4.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
2.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
2.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.8 KAZ_Turk_o
1.2 Levant_PPNC

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.7098% / 0.00709798
25.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
13.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
11.8 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
11.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
11.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
9.6 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
8.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
4.2 KAZ_Turk
2.2 Levant_PPNC
1.4 MAR_Taforalt
0.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 0.7494% / 0.00749425
46.8 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
16.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
15.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
5.4 KAZ_Turk
5.4 Levant_Beirut_IAII
3.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
2.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
2.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
0.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
0.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o6

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
Distance: 0.5458% / 0.00545767
43.6 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
10.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
7.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
7.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
6.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
4.8 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
4.0 KAZ_Turk
3.8 KAZ_Turk_o
3.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o6
2.6 Levant_PPNC
2.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
1.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
1.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
1.2 MAR_Taforalt
0.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 0.3815% / 0.00381534
44.0 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
14.4 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
8.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
5.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
4.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
4.0 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
3.6 Levant_Beirut_IAII
3.4 KAZ_Turk_o
3.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
2.6 Levant_PPNC
2.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.2 Levant_Yehud_IBA
0.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.8 KAZ_Turk
0.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o6



Sephardi Jews
Target: Sephardic_Jew
Distance: 0.8951% / 0.00895119
28.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
19.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
14.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
10.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
10.0 Levant_Yehud_IBA
9.2 Levant_Megiddo_IA
4.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
2.6 MAR_Taforalt
1.8 KAZ_Turk
0.6 Yamnaya_BGR




Jews from the Arab World
Target: Yemenite_Jew
Distance: 3.5175% / 0.03517537
52.8 Levant_JOR_EBA
27.6 Levant_Natufian
11.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
7.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.0 Dinka

Target: Iraqi_Jew
Distance: 1.3282% / 0.01328187
20.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
19.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
16.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
14.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
8.2 Levant_LBN_MA
5.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
4.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
2.0 Levant_Beirut_IAII
0.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA

Target: Libyan_Jew
Distance: 0.6496% / 0.00649576
20.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
17.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
15.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
8.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
6.4 Levant_Abel_IA
5.8 Levant_Megiddo_IA
5.6 MAR_Taforalt
5.2 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
5.2 Levant_Yehud_IBA
5.0 Levant_PPNC
3.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o6
0.8 Dinka

Target: Moroccan_Jew
Distance: 1.2813% / 0.01281279
19.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
15.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
12.6 Levant_Abel_IA
12.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
11.2 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
8.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o6
7.4 MAR_Taforalt
6.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
6.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
1.2 Levant_LBN_MA
0.4 KAZ_Turk_o

Target: Tunisian_Jew
Distance: 0.8357% / 0.00835732
20.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
14.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
14.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
11.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
10.2 Levant_LBN_MA
6.6 MAR_Taforalt
5.4 Levant_Abel_IA
5.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
4.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA
4.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
2.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o6
1.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.2 Dinka
0.2 Yoruba

Target: Karaite_Egypt
Distance: 1.1583% / 0.01158257
28.0 Levant_LBN_MA
22.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
11.4 Levant_LBN_Roman
9.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
7.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
5.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
5.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
3.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
2.2 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
2.2 MAR_Taforalt
0.8 Yoruba
0.2 KAZ_Turk

Target: Samaritan
Distance: 0.9314% / 0.00931375
28.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
25.6 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
12.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
8.8 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
5.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.2 Levant_PPNC
3.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_o
2.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
1.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
1.8 Levant_Megiddo_IA
1.6 Levant_ISR_C
1.2 Levant_Natufian
1.0 Levant_Abel_IA
0.8 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

(These Samaritans are literally 100% Levantine lol)

passenger
07-03-2020, 10:29 PM
The vast majority of Jews have North African ancestry (except the Yemenites) but only the Yemenites and the North African Jews show any SSA whether Eastern Dinka or the Western Yoruba.


Askhenazi G25
Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.7577% / 0.00757726
22.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
14.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
12.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
12.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
11.8 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
10.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
5.2 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
5.0 KAZ_Turk
3.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA
1.2 MAR_Taforalt
0.4 Levant_PPNC

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 0.7381% / 0.00738123
33.6 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
28.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
11.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
9.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
5.6 KAZ_Turk
4.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
2.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
2.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.8 KAZ_Turk_o
1.2 Levant_PPNC

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.7098% / 0.00709798
25.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
13.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
11.8 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
11.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
11.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
9.6 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
8.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
4.2 KAZ_Turk
2.2 Levant_PPNC
1.4 MAR_Taforalt
0.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 0.7494% / 0.00749425
46.8 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
16.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
15.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
5.4 KAZ_Turk
5.4 Levant_Beirut_IAII
3.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
2.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
2.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
0.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
0.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o6

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
Distance: 0.5458% / 0.00545767
43.6 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
10.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
7.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
7.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
6.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
4.8 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
4.0 KAZ_Turk
3.8 KAZ_Turk_o
3.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o6
2.6 Levant_PPNC
2.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
1.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
1.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
1.2 MAR_Taforalt
0.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 0.3815% / 0.00381534
44.0 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
14.4 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
8.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
5.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
4.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
4.0 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
3.6 Levant_Beirut_IAII
3.4 KAZ_Turk_o
3.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
2.6 Levant_PPNC
2.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.2 Levant_Yehud_IBA
0.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.8 KAZ_Turk
0.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o6



Sephardi Jews
Target: Sephardic_Jew
Distance: 0.8951% / 0.00895119
28.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
19.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
14.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
10.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
10.0 Levant_Yehud_IBA
9.2 Levant_Megiddo_IA
4.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
2.6 MAR_Taforalt
1.8 KAZ_Turk
0.6 Yamnaya_BGR




Jews from the Arab World
Target: Yemenite_Jew
Distance: 3.5175% / 0.03517537
52.8 Levant_JOR_EBA
27.6 Levant_Natufian
11.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
7.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.0 Dinka

Target: Iraqi_Jew
Distance: 1.3282% / 0.01328187
20.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
19.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
16.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
14.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
8.2 Levant_LBN_MA
5.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
4.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
2.0 Levant_Beirut_IAII
0.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA

Target: Libyan_Jew
Distance: 0.6496% / 0.00649576
20.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
17.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
15.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
8.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
6.4 Levant_Abel_IA
5.8 Levant_Megiddo_IA
5.6 MAR_Taforalt
5.2 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
5.2 Levant_Yehud_IBA
5.0 Levant_PPNC
3.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o6
0.8 Dinka

Target: Moroccan_Jew
Distance: 1.2813% / 0.01281279
19.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
15.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
12.6 Levant_Abel_IA
12.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
11.2 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
8.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o6
7.4 MAR_Taforalt
6.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
6.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
1.2 Levant_LBN_MA
0.4 KAZ_Turk_o

Target: Tunisian_Jew
Distance: 0.8357% / 0.00835732
20.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
14.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
14.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
11.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
10.2 Levant_LBN_MA
6.6 MAR_Taforalt
5.4 Levant_Abel_IA
5.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
4.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA
4.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
2.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o6
1.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.2 Dinka
0.2 Yoruba

Target: Karaite_Egypt
Distance: 1.1583% / 0.01158257
28.0 Levant_LBN_MA
22.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
11.4 Levant_LBN_Roman
9.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
7.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
5.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
5.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
3.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
2.2 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
2.2 MAR_Taforalt
0.8 Yoruba
0.2 KAZ_Turk

Target: Samaritan
Distance: 0.9314% / 0.00931375
28.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
25.6 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
12.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
8.8 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
5.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.2 Levant_PPNC
3.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_o
2.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
1.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
1.8 Levant_Megiddo_IA
1.6 Levant_ISR_C
1.2 Levant_Natufian
1.0 Levant_Abel_IA
0.8 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

(These Samaritans are literally 100% Levantine lol)






That's very interesting, but I think there are some issues with those models. Firstly, there's no way that Eastern Ashkenazim are as Levantine as those models lead one to believe, so I'm not sure how you ended up with those populations, which seem to be missing some components. But, I think the main point is that, if we're going by the Moorjani article, which was referenced in the OP as well as in jkotl0237's post, the type of SSA that is being discussed is ancient, and would have to be embedded in one of the pre-diasporic founder populations common to modern Jewish groups, since (assuming that the Moorjani et al. study is correct, which I'm not sure about), that SSA is supposedly present in both Mizrahim and Western Jews (Ashkenazim and Sephardim). Of course the Moorjani study is relatively old, and somewhat vague. I'm not sure, for instance, what they conceive of as "SSA", given that they seem to include Horners in that category. In any case, if we're going to dialogue with that study, I think we need to be looking at ancient populations as source pops (including Levantine pops) for embedded SSA, and not additional SSA acquired on top that.

Also, just a detail related to your categorization, but which isn't relevant to the discussion (just a kind of pet peeve of mine), the line between "Sephardi" (which I believe is understood as Eastern Sephardim from Greece and Turkey, given where the samples come from) and other Mediterranean basin Jews, including North African Jews, is a very blurred one, since depending on the particular subgroup of Maghrebi, Egyptian or Syrian Jews, there are many who share a considerable amount of ancestry with Italian, Greek and Turkish Jews, and others who are genetically more distant, being more heavily descended from "pre-Sephardic" Musta'arabim. A more logical division would be between Mizrahim (namely Iraqi and Persian Jews) and Sephardim (Mediterranean basin Jews), although groups like Syrians straddle the border, and there are many nuances among North African Jews. Yemenites are genetic outliers in most respects.

drobbah
07-03-2020, 10:49 PM
I am very skeptical that SSA ancestry existed among pre-diasporic Jews but I could be wrong.

passenger
07-03-2020, 11:00 PM
I am very skeptical that SSA ancestry existed among pre-diasporic Jews but I could be wrong.

Fair enough. You may well be right, I couldn't say. I'm just trying to follow the findings of Moorjani et al., in which case I think we have to look at the ancient populations themselves and not their modern descendants. I also think it depends on what definition of "SSA" we're operating with.

Mnemonics
07-03-2020, 11:31 PM
Do Samaritans have any African ancestry? I have been noticing that they seem to act as a better source for the Eurasian in Somalis than even Yemeni Jews in my modern only Qpadm models.

jkotl0327
07-05-2020, 06:46 PM
The vast majority of Jews have North African ancestry (except the Yemenites) but only the Yemenites and the North African Jews show any SSA whether Eastern Dinka or the Western Yoruba.


Askhenazi G25
Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 0.7577% / 0.00757726
22.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
14.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
12.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
12.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
11.8 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
10.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
5.2 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
5.0 KAZ_Turk
3.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA
1.2 MAR_Taforalt
0.4 Levant_PPNC

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 0.7381% / 0.00738123
33.6 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
28.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
11.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
9.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
5.6 KAZ_Turk
4.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
2.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
2.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.8 KAZ_Turk_o
1.2 Levant_PPNC

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 0.7098% / 0.00709798
25.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
13.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
11.8 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
11.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
11.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
9.6 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
8.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
4.2 KAZ_Turk
2.2 Levant_PPNC
1.4 MAR_Taforalt
0.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 0.7494% / 0.00749425
46.8 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
16.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
15.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
5.4 KAZ_Turk
5.4 Levant_Beirut_IAII
3.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
2.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
2.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
0.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
0.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o6

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
Distance: 0.5458% / 0.00545767
43.6 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
10.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
7.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
7.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
6.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
4.8 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
4.0 KAZ_Turk
3.8 KAZ_Turk_o
3.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o6
2.6 Levant_PPNC
2.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
1.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
1.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
1.2 MAR_Taforalt
0.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 0.3815% / 0.00381534
44.0 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
14.4 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
8.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
5.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
4.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
4.0 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
3.6 Levant_Beirut_IAII
3.4 KAZ_Turk_o
3.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
2.6 Levant_PPNC
2.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.2 Levant_Yehud_IBA
0.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.8 KAZ_Turk
0.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o6



Sephardi Jews
Target: Sephardic_Jew
Distance: 0.8951% / 0.00895119
28.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
19.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
14.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
10.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
10.0 Levant_Yehud_IBA
9.2 Levant_Megiddo_IA
4.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
2.6 MAR_Taforalt
1.8 KAZ_Turk
0.6 Yamnaya_BGR




Jews from the Arab World
Target: Yemenite_Jew
Distance: 3.5175% / 0.03517537
52.8 Levant_JOR_EBA
27.6 Levant_Natufian
11.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
7.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.0 Dinka

Target: Iraqi_Jew
Distance: 1.3282% / 0.01328187
20.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
19.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
16.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
14.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
8.2 Levant_LBN_MA
5.6 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
4.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
2.0 Levant_Beirut_IAII
0.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA

Target: Libyan_Jew
Distance: 0.6496% / 0.00649576
20.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
17.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
15.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
8.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
6.4 Levant_Abel_IA
5.8 Levant_Megiddo_IA
5.6 MAR_Taforalt
5.2 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
5.2 Levant_Yehud_IBA
5.0 Levant_PPNC
3.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o6
0.8 Dinka

Target: Moroccan_Jew
Distance: 1.2813% / 0.01281279
19.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
15.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
12.6 Levant_Abel_IA
12.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
11.2 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
8.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o6
7.4 MAR_Taforalt
6.8 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
6.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
1.2 Levant_LBN_MA
0.4 KAZ_Turk_o

Target: Tunisian_Jew
Distance: 0.8357% / 0.00835732
20.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
14.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
14.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o1
11.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
10.2 Levant_LBN_MA
6.6 MAR_Taforalt
5.4 Levant_Abel_IA
5.0 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
4.6 Levant_Megiddo_IA
4.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
2.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o6
1.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.2 Dinka
0.2 Yoruba

Target: Karaite_Egypt
Distance: 1.1583% / 0.01158257
28.0 Levant_LBN_MA
22.6 Levant_Yehud_IBA
11.4 Levant_LBN_Roman
9.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
7.4 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
5.6 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
5.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
3.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
2.2 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
2.2 MAR_Taforalt
0.8 Yoruba
0.2 KAZ_Turk

Target: Samaritan
Distance: 0.9314% / 0.00931375
28.4 Levant_Yehud_IBA
25.6 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
12.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
8.8 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
5.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.2 Levant_PPNC
3.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_o
2.2 Levant_LBN_MA_o2
1.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
1.8 Levant_Megiddo_IA
1.6 Levant_ISR_C
1.2 Levant_Natufian
1.0 Levant_Abel_IA
0.8 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

(These Samaritans are literally 100% Levantine lol)






Your models show valuable information but going by the ancient SSA theory, the SSA would already be embedded in the components you showed. The admixture would have happened before the bronze age. Let's look at Megiddo IA and BA samples, as well as Natufian in the G25 K8:
38272
We can clearly see a few percent African in the Megiddo samples, with over 10% in the Natufian samples. This seems to provide evidence for the theory that Ancient African ancestry in Jews and other Levantines originates from the Natufians/Canaanites and was diluted with Mesopotamian/North MENA admixture over time.
This paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/02/20/191569.full.pdf
discusses the ties that the Natufians had with E. African and N. African Neolithic cultures. The Natufians also were almost exclusively of Y-DNA haplogroup E, and the most common theory for its origin is that it spread from E. Africa into the Middle East, probably through the Natufians/pre-Natufian people. Those very ancient, substantial genetic ties are pretty diluted today, but are still visible.

Here is my results, also with a few percent African:
38273

Also, for Mnemonics, here is Samaritan:
38274

drobbah
07-05-2020, 06:56 PM
Natufian isn't 11% SSA and the fact that the other Levantine populations had even less than the Natufians further strengthens my point that the ancestors of the Palestinians and modern Jews didn't have any SSA, and the reason why Jews that didn't stay in Africa don't have SSA ancestry is because their ancestors never had it in the first place

Adules
07-05-2020, 07:41 PM
The Old Egyptians samples coming up are Neolithic Levantinelike. And Neothic Levantines don't have anything we can call SSA.

jkotl0327
07-05-2020, 07:57 PM
Natufian isn't 11% SSA and the fact that the other Levantine populations had even less than the Natufians further strengthens my point that the ancestors of the Palestinians and modern Jews didn't have any SSA, and the reason why Jews that didn't stay in Africa don't have SSA ancestry is because their ancestors never had it in the first place

The model clearly shows that Natufians had a significant amount of SSA, and the studies I cited, as well as the one originally cited by BalkanKiwi discuss the ties between the Ancient Natufians, N. African groups, and pre-Omotic peoples in E. Africa, consistent with the spread of Y-DNA E. The reason that the BA Levant groups have less SSA is because of migration from Mesopotamia and the Northern Middle East as discussed in the Agranat-Tamir study. By the Israelite era, the Natufian component was very diluted and represented a minority of Levantine DNA while the majority was from the Mesopotamian migrations. This is discussed on many of the threads about Jews and Canaanites. Also, please see my results and the Samaritan average result which shows that we both have 2.8% African.

jkotl0327
07-05-2020, 07:58 PM
The Old Egyptians samples coming up are Neolithic Levantinelike. And Neothic Levantines don't have anything we can call SSA.

Please see my previous post on the Natufians.

Adules
07-05-2020, 08:02 PM
Egypt circa Old Kingdom had no notable migration from Mesopotamia.

jkotl0327
07-05-2020, 08:03 PM
Egypt circa Old Kingdom had no notable migration from Mesopotamia.

Ok, but the Levant did, I was responding to your assertion that the Neolithic Levant had no SSA.

jkotl0327
07-05-2020, 08:09 PM
One important point of contention on this thread has been whether the SSA in Western Jews derives from N. Africa and thus from Yoruba-like admixture or from a more Ancient E. African source. I took the G25 World K=8 calculator I previously used and instead of "African", I put in the following modern averages: Yoruba and Dinka. Here was the result:
38276
As you can see, the Natufians have a significant amount of Dinka-like E. African, which comes out more diluted in the Israelite ABM sample from thousands of years later, due to Mesopotamian admixture. The Dinka goes from 14 to 3.4%, pretty consistent with the theory that modeling Israelites as Natufian vs some N. MENA source comes out to about 25% Natufian and 75% North MENA due to the migration I previously mentioned. I have slightly lower Dinka at 3.2%, probably due to European admixture in Ashkenazim, and the Samaritans have slightly higher Dinka (possibly due to minor mixing with Arabs over the past millennium) at 3.8%. This is fairly consistent with what we know about the genetic history of all these populations. One important point: there is no Yoruba/W. African admixture for me that could have been derived from N. Africa, rather all my SSA admixture shows up as Dinka/E. African.

BalkanKiwi
07-06-2020, 10:42 AM
One important point of contention on this thread has been whether the SSA in Western Jews derives from N. Africa and thus from Yoruba-like admixture or from a more Ancient E. African source. I took the G25 World K=8 calculator I previously used and instead of "African", I put in the following modern averages: Yoruba and Dinka. Here was the result:
38276
As you can see, the Natufians have a significant amount of Dinka-like E. African, which comes out more diluted in the Israelite ABM sample from thousands of years later, due to Mesopotamian admixture. The Dinka goes from 14 to 3.4%, pretty consistent with the theory that modeling Israelites as Natufian vs some N. MENA source comes out to about 25% Natufian and 75% North MENA due to the migration I previously mentioned. I have slightly lower Dinka at 3.2%, probably due to European admixture in Ashkenazim, and the Samaritans have slightly higher Dinka (possibly due to minor mixing with Arabs over the past millennium) at 3.8%. This is fairly consistent with what we know about the genetic history of all these populations. One important point: there is no Yoruba/W. African admixture for me that could have been derived from N. Africa, rather all my SSA admixture shows up as Dinka/E. African.

I haven't played around much with Dinka but I did a quick model with it out of interest. For my grandfather anyway, it isn't as high as Ethiopian (if I remove Samaritan, Dinka goes up to 1.5%):

Unscaled with penalty

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:0.9305
Results:Scottish65.5
English32.5
Dinka1
Samaritan1

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 03:49 PM
I haven't played around much with Dinka but I did a quick model with it out of interest. For my grandfather anyway, it isn't as high as Ethiopian (if I remove Samaritan, Dinka goes up to 1.5%):

Unscaled with penalty

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:0.9305
Results:Scottish65.5
English32.5
Dinka1
Samaritan1

Ethiopian might be higher due to Semitic overlap, no? I don't believe Dinka have any Semitic ancestry though so 1% Dinka is more likely to reflect true African ancestry rather than just Semitic ancestry.

BalkanKiwi
07-06-2020, 08:23 PM
Ethiopian might be higher due to Semitic overlap, no? I don't believe Dinka have any Semitic ancestry though so 1% Dinka is more likely to reflect true African ancestry rather than just Semitic ancestry.

It's highly likely. I've been trying to make sense as to why he scores 2-3% Ethiopian, which is inflated. If I run that same model with Yoruba instead, he gets nothing.

Running his unscaled coordinates through the G25 Modern and Ancient averages, he gets 0.8% Somali and 0.8% Kenyan Pastoral respectively. Perhaps true ancestry, or perhaps just acting for something else. I'm not sure.

It might have already been mentioned, but why have Ashkenazi Jew's in particular inherited a Sudanese like component? Or is Dinka just the best fit?

EDIT:

I've also played with populations from Tanzania:

Sample:Grandfather
Fit:0.9312
Results:Scottish66.5
English31.5
Iraqw1
Samaritan1

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 10:05 PM
It's highly likely. I've been trying to make sense as to why he scores 2-3% Ethiopian, which is inflated. If I run that same model with Yoruba instead, he gets nothing.

Running his unscaled coordinates through the G25 Modern and Ancient averages, he gets 0.8% Somali and 0.8% Kenyan Pastoral respectively. Perhaps true ancestry, or perhaps just acting for something else. I'm not sure.

It might have already been mentioned, but why have Ashkenazi Jew's in particular inherited a Sudanese like component? Or is Dinka just the best fit?

EDIT:

I've also played with populations from Tanzania:

Sample:Grandfather
Fit:0.9312
Results:Scottish66.5
English31.5
Iraqw1
Samaritan1

Running Jews with one of the sources being a non-Semitic E. African population like Dinka usually shows that Jews have 2-3% E. African admixture. Levantines in the Bronze and Iron Ages and even Samaritans today have 3-4% E. African SSA, and the slightly lower number in modern Jews is probably just admixture diluting the SSA. It is not just the Ashkenazi though, I ran a bunch of Jewish groups that don't have recent SSA (like North African or Yemeni Jews):
38292
I think that all of this and the Natufian result discussed previously points to the SSA being of ancient proto-Natufian origin, and not something specific to a certain group of Jews.
Running with Iraqw seems to produce inflated results (I think they have some Semitic roots):
38293

I just think that Dinka is a good example of an E. African population largely free of Semitic influence, which is why the first model is probably the most accurate for SSA admixture in Jews, but I am not an expert on E. African populations. The ideal would be an E. African group that does not have any Semitic roots, which as far as I know, Dinka people do not.

Khazar
07-06-2020, 10:11 PM
Occam's razor:

The simplest solution is most likely the right one."
Ashkenazim look very much like South Italians/Sicilians on an autosomal level, albeit with some predictable genetic drift, and a founders effect.
Any SSA in their genome likely comes from their obvious Greco Roman ancestry.

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 10:20 PM
Occam's razor:

Ashkenazim look very much like South Italians/Sicilians on an autosomal level, albeit with some predictable genetic drift, and a founders effect.
Any SSA in their genome likely comes from their obvious Greco Roman ancestry.

Ashkenazim mixed largely with N. Italians. Being a mix of N. Italian + Levantine is what makes us look like Mediterranean Islanders/S. Italians genetically. Ashkenazim have some minor Maghrebi N. African ancestry, probably from admixture in the Roman Empire or possibly via Spain, so any African admixture deriving from Romans would come through Maghrebi N. Africans, and thus originally W. Africans. This would probably show up as Yoruba. However, Ashkenazim, like all other Jewish groups without recent SSA (N. African and Yemeni Jews), derive their SSA ancestry from an E. African, Dinka-like source, as do Samaritans and Iron Age Levantines (see my previous posts). This likely derives from the Ancient Natufians who had demonstrable genetic ties with E. Africa related to haplogroup E. Based on the evidence outlined here (and in my previous posts on this thread) this is not related to Greco-Roman ancestry. Please read the rest of this thread for more details.

Johnny ola
07-06-2020, 10:25 PM
Ashkenazim mixed largely with N. Italians. Being a mix of N. Italian + Levantine is what makes us look like Mediterranean Islanders/S. Italians genetically. Ashkenazim have some minor Maghrebi N. African ancestry, probably from admixture in the Roman Empire or possibly via Spain, so any African admixture deriving from Romans would come through Maghrebi N. Africans, and thus originally W. Africans. This would probably show up as Yoruba. However, Ashkenazim, like all other Jewish groups without recent SSA (N. African and Yemeni Jews), derive their SSA ancestry from an E. African, Dinka-like source, as do Samaritans and Iron Age Levantines (see my previous posts). This likely derives from the Ancient Natufians who had demonstrable genetic ties with E. Africa related to haplogroup E. Based on the evidence outlined here (and in my previous posts on this thread) this is not related to Greco-Roman ancestry. Please read the rest of this thread for more details.

You are 100% wrong in almost everything you wrote.I am not sure if Agamemnon or Erikl will agree with this post of you.But even if them agreed with you,i find 100% your post as total nonsense.

Khazar
07-06-2020, 10:28 PM
Ashkenazim mixed largely with N. Italians. Being a mix of N. Italian + Levantine is what makes us look like Mediterranean Islanders/S. Italians genetically. Ashkenazim have some minor Maghrebi N. African ancestry, probably from admixture in the Roman Empire or possibly via Spain, so any African admixture deriving from Romans would come through Maghrebi N. Africans, and thus originally W. Africans. This would probably show up as Yoruba. However, Ashkenazim, like all other Jewish groups without recent SSA (N. African and Yemeni Jews), derive their SSA ancestry from an E. African, Dinka-like source, as do Samaritans and Iron Age Levantines (see my previous posts). This likely derives from the Ancient Natufians who had demonstrable genetic ties with E. Africa related to haplogroup E. Based on the evidence outlined here (and in my previous posts on this thread) this is not related to Greco-Roman ancestry. Please read the rest of this thread for more details.

Many people subscribe to that theory, especially the one's that rely on studies that totally exclude South Italians/Sicilians from their reference populations.
I'm not in that camp.
Just have Sardinians/Tuscany or above and keep South Italy/Sicily out...
I guess that can somehow be considered "science," to some.
Not me though......
I'm not political, nor will I allow my personal feelings to cloud my judgment.

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 10:49 PM
You are 100% wrong in almost everything you wrote.I am not sure if Agamemnon or Erikl will agree with this post of you.But even if them agreed with you,i find 100% your post as total nonsense.

Clearly the models I provided did not sway you. I think that the models show that there is an ancient SSA source deriving from E. Africa and associated with the Natufians that lives on in modern Levantine populations, including Jews today. If you disagree, good for you, but there are several scientific studies on my side.

Johnny ola
07-06-2020, 10:53 PM
Clearly the models I provided did not sway you. I think that the models show that there is an ancient SSA source deriving from E. Africa and associated with the Natufians that lives on in modern Levantine populations, including Jews today. If you disagree, good for you, but there are several scientific studies on my side.

Nope there are not and its obvious that you trolling since the day you logged in here.Levant N or Natufians(if you want it) are 100% west eurasians with their autosomal DNA being half Dzudzuana like and Iberomaurisian.Also the majority of samples from modern Israel and Palestine show's zero SSA.

BalkanKiwi
07-06-2020, 10:53 PM
Out of interest, I ran an OptimaFit with Dinka and a few Tanzanian and Kenyan populations which individually my grandfather scores some of. Ideally it would be good to compare to others to see if this is consistent.

https://i.imgur.com/Gicu317.jpg

https://genoplot.com/genoplot16.png GenoPlot (https://genoplot.com/shared/g25/#Balkan_Kiwi/173264fae711)
Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:0.9863
Results:Scottish97.4
Samaritan1.4
Dinka1.2

Targum
07-06-2020, 10:58 PM
Actually classic Jewish History/Hebrew Literature, with long periods of Israel-Egypt-Kush engagement/intermarriage, would seem to support some ancient sources of SSA

Khazar
07-06-2020, 10:58 PM
Clearly the models I provided did not sway you. I think that the models show that there is an ancient SSA source deriving from E. Africa and associated with the Natufians that lives on in modern Levantine populations, including Jews today. If you disagree, good for you, but there are several scientific studies on my side.
One can have an ideological camp in population genetics and basically repeat the same study with their cherry-picked populations to achieve any desired results.
The game with totally excluding South Italians/Sicilians in studies and using TSI and Sardinia only is pretty much the norm.
If you do a side by side study of Ashkenazim, and Sicilians/South Italians you will find massive genetic overlap on the autosomal level.

drobbah
07-06-2020, 11:06 PM
Actually classic Jewish History/Hebrew Literature, with long periods of Israel-Egypt-Kush engagement/intermarriage, would seem to support some ancient sources of SSA
Perhaps extremely minor Dinka ancestry ~1% mediated by the Egyptians

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 11:09 PM
Many people subscribe to that theory, especially the one's that rely on studies that totally exclude South Italians/Sicilians from their reference populations.
I'm not in that camp.
Just have Sardinians/Tuscany or above and keep South Italy/Sicily out...
I guess that can somehow be considered "science," to some.
Not me though......
I'm not political, nor will I allow my personal feelings to cloud my judgment.

Before responding to what you just wrote I took the liberty of adding some S. Italian populations throughout the ages to provide evidence for my theory as to how some Dinka-like E. African admixture may also exist in modern-day S. Italians. I believe that my model shows that S. Italians cannot be the source of E. Africa SSA admixture in Ashkenazi Jews.

Here it is:38299

I didn't have room to show the labels but Dinka is the 5th column.
As you can see, early Sicilian populations did not have SSA admixture, which makes sense. For the most part, E. SSA admixture didn't exist in Roman-era S. Italians either, with the exception of R51, which has an extremely small amount (0.4%). The Imperial samples I chose, in case you are wondering, are as southern-shifted as I could find without going more southern-shifted than modern-day S. Italians/Sicilians. The Ancient Rome study includes many Imperial samples that cluster much more to the south than S. Italians, or even Ashkenazi Jews, clustering right with Levantine or even Mesopotamian populations, meaning that they were MENA migrants to Rome or descendants of such migrants. The samples I included plot with modern-day S. Italians. They really don't have any East SSA either. Late Antiquity Romans (5th to 7th century samples which also plot right with S. Italians & Sicilians) do not have any East SSA ancestry either. Both Middle Antiquity (~1200s) and Renaissance (~1500s) samples have an average of about 0.6% East SSA, with a few outliers still having no East SSA. This shows that a minor amount of East SSA (less than in Ashkenazi Jews to the degree that some S. Italians still had no East SSA) entered the S. Italian gene pool only during the last millennium, and after the ancestors of the Ashkenazim had already moved out of Italy to Germany. This shows that S. Italians couldn't have been the source of the Ashkenazim's East SSA admixture, and based on the timing when S. Italians obtained it, it seems likely that Levantine Arabs or Mediterranean Islanders who had some East SSA brought the component to Italy through trade or conquest. I don't want to say exclusively that it had to be Arabs who brought the East SSA because that is another controversial debate (although in my opinion it was most likely E. Mediterranean Arabs). By the way, the Rome renaissance samples have a lot of Atlantic, which makes them look like N. Italians, in my opinion reflecting that Rome was a capital with many diverse people living there, not just Central/South Italians. That may explain why the last 2 samples have no East SSA. By the way, just like their S. Italian ancestors for the last ~1000 years, S. Italians today have about 1% East SSA, not close to the about 2.5% that most Jewish groups have. The fact that the Ashkenazim's ancestors were not in Italy anymore at the time of this SSA component's introduction and the fact that pretty much all modern Jewish groups, Samaritans, Bronze/Iron Age Levantines, and the Ancient Natufians share this component seems like pretty compelling evidence that Ashkenazi Jews owe this East SSA ancestry to an Ancient proto-Natufian source, as do all Jews.

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 11:11 PM
Perhaps extremely minor Dinka ancestry ~1% mediated by the Egyptians

I think that since pretty much all the Ancient Levantine samples had >3% and most Jewish groups today have >2%, ~1% is an underestimate. Whether it is called "extremely minor" or not doesn't matter, obviously it is not a major part of Jewish ancestry but at the very least I think I have established its existence.

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 11:12 PM
Nope there are not and its obvious that you trolling since the day you logged in here.Levant N or Natufians(if you want it) are 100% west eurasians with their autosomal DNA being half Dzudzuana like and Iberomaurisian.Also the majority of samples from modern Israel and Palestine show's zero SSA.

Did you look at the model I posted which showed Natufians had >10% East SSA?

drobbah
07-06-2020, 11:15 PM
I think that since pretty much all the Ancient Levantine samples had >3% and most Jewish groups today have >2%, ~1% is an underestimate. Whether it is called "extremely minor" or not doesn't matter, obviously it is not a major part of Jewish ancestry but at the very least I think I have established its existence.
The Ancient Levantine samples don't have Dinka admixture and the Natufians aren't 11% SSA

Khazar
07-06-2020, 11:19 PM
Before responding to what you just wrote I took the liberty of adding some S. Italian populations throughout the ages to provide evidence for my theory as to how some Dinka-like E. African admixture may also exist in modern-day S. Italians. I believe that my model shows that S. Italians cannot be the source of E. Africa SSA admixture in Ashkenazi Jews.

Here it is:38299

I didn't have room to show the labels but Dinka is the 5th column.
As you can see, early Sicilian populations did not have SSA admixture, which makes sense. For the most part, E. SSA admixture didn't exist in Roman-era S. Italians either, with the exception of R51, which has an extremely small amount (0.4%). The Imperial samples I chose, in case you are wondering, are as southern-shifted as I could find without going more southern-shifted than modern-day S. Italians/Sicilians. The Ancient Rome study includes many Imperial samples that cluster much more to the south than S. Italians, or even Ashkenazi Jews, clustering right with Levantine or even Mesopotamian populations, meaning that they were MENA migrants to Rome or descendants of such migrants. The samples I included plot with modern-day S. Italians. They really don't have any East SSA either. Late Antiquity Romans (5th to 7th century samples which also plot right with S. Italians & Sicilians) do not have any East SSA ancestry either. Both Middle Antiquity (~1200s) and Renaissance (~1500s) samples have an average of about 0.6% East SSA, with a few outliers still having no East SSA. This shows that a minor amount of East SSA (less than in Ashkenazi Jews to the degree that some S. Italians still had no East SSA) entered the S. Italian gene pool only during the last millennium, and after the ancestors of the Ashkenazim had already moved out of Italy to Germany. This shows that S. Italians couldn't have been the source of the Ashkenazim's East SSA admixture, and based on the timing when S. Italians obtained it, it seems likely that Levantine Arabs or Mediterranean Islanders who had some East SSA brought the component to Italy through trade or conquest. I don't want to say exclusively that it had to be Arabs who brought the East SSA because that is another controversial debate (although in my opinion it was most likely E. Mediterranean Arabs). By the way, the Rome renaissance samples have a lot of Atlantic, which makes them look like N. Italians, in my opinion reflecting that Rome was a capital with many diverse people living there, not just Central/South Italians. That may explain why the last 2 samples have no East SSA. By the way, just like their S. Italian ancestors for the last ~1000 years, S. Italians today have about 1% East SSA, not close to the about 2.5% that most Jewish groups have. The fact that the Ashkenazim's ancestors were not in Italy anymore at the time of this SSA component's introduction and the fact that pretty much all modern Jewish groups, Samaritans, Bronze/Iron Age Levantines, and the Ancient Natufians share this component seems like pretty compelling evidence that Ashkenazi Jews owe this East SSA ancestry to an Ancient proto-Natufian source, as do all Jews.
Ashkenazim suffered a genetic bottleneck, founder effect and genetic drift.
Even so this is the norm when you look at them compared to Sicilians/South Italians on the autosomal level.
Explain this?
https://i.ibb.co/xGXgYST/Screenshot-Sicilian-West-Vahaduo-JS-19-11-2.png

Johnny ola
07-06-2020, 11:19 PM
Did you look at the model I posted which showed Natufians had >10% East SSA?

I have no idea what refrences you using and i have no clue what G25 is doing but Natufians have nothing in common with Dinka like admixture.Actually Natufian like folks moved their asses to East Africa..!

Natufians are a combination of Basal Eurasian population and Dzudzuana like nothing ssa as you imagine!

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 11:26 PM
One can have an ideological camp in population genetics and basically repeat the same study with their cherry-picked populations to achieve any desired results.
The game with totally excluding South Italians/Sicilians in studies and using TSI and Sardinia only is pretty much the norm.
If you do a side by side study of Ashkenazim, and Sicilians/South Italians you will find massive genetic overlap on the autosomal level.
This is why that region is ignored entirely by some VERY powerful names in population genetics, Harry Ostrer M.D. is a particularly nefarious and dishonest researcher.

I just wanted to respond to your argument about the SSA in Jews coming from S. Italians first (please see my other post which shows that S. Italians could not have been the source of SSA in Jews and that again brings us back to the Natufians being the source for all Jews and Samaritans). Don't see what this has to do with Ostrer either, I hope this stuff about "VERY powerful names" doesn't turn into a conspiratorial rant. Haplogroup evidence points to origins for Jews in the Levant and N. Italy, if Jews were 80-90% S. Italian the haplogroups would be different. From an autosomal perspective, you are also wrong in my opinion. Look, the debate about Western Jews' autosomal composition is by no means settled (there's a giant thread on it), but I was trying to settle a debate on SSA, not what you are discussing, which really doesn't belong in this thread in my opinion. My model is heavily based on the G25 World K=8 calculator in Vahaduo. The only thing I changed from that calculator was I took the "African" component and split it into Dinka and Yoruba to settle this debate about East vs West SSA in Jews. The sources I have are: Atlantic, Caucasian, Mediterranean, East_Asian, Baltic, Amerindian, South_Asian, Dinka, and Yoruba, the last two substituting the general "African" component in the original calculator's sources. These components have nothing to do with North or South Italian and we were really focusing on the SSA parts in this thread. I wasn't trying to make any arguments about North/South Italian, and although like most people I have political views, they have nothing to do with SSA ancestry in Jews. If you want a debate about North vs South Italian ancestry in Jews, I recommend taking it to the Western Jews thread.

Johnny ola
07-06-2020, 11:28 PM
The Ancient Levantine samples don't have Dinka admixture and the Natufians aren't 11% SSA

Some Natufian individuals in the future(ancient levantines as well) might show some Dinka like admixture because there were migrations from north africa to east africa and comebacks.But not crazy things and not more than 10-15%.

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 11:31 PM
How old are you? 13?

I have no idea what refrences you using and i have no clue what G25 is doing but Natufians have nothing in common with Dinka like admixture.Actually Natufian like folks moved their asses to East Africa..!

Natufians are a combination of Basal Eurasian population and Dzudzuana like nothing ssa as you imagine!

I am not 13 (I don't know what this has to do with my age and the language you are using makes you sound 13). Back to the debate, you can disagree with the model, I am just showing you the G25 evidence, take it or don't. Even if there was migration between the Middle East and E. Africa during that time, it does not explain that level of East SSA admixture, and many scientific studies cited earlier in this thread are on my side. Do you have any evidence that it was back-migration that accounts for this level of SSA in the model or just your word? I agree that mostly Natufians are what you said but many studies and this model provide evidence for their being an East SSA contribution. I agree with what you said about not more than 10-15%. But given that the BA/IA Levantines are 3-3.5 percent and are usually considered to be about 25% Natufian (10-15% SSA) and 75% Mesopotamian/North MENA (0% SSA), the numbers add up.

Khazar
07-06-2020, 11:32 PM
I just wanted to respond to your argument about the SSA in Jews coming from S. Italians first (please see my other post which shows that S. Italians could not have been the source of SSA in Jews and that again brings us back to the Natufians being the source for all Jews and Samaritans). Don't see what this has to do with Ostrer either, I hope this stuff about "VERY powerful names" doesn't turn into a conspiratorial rant. Haplogroup evidence points to origins for Jews in the Levant and N. Italy, if Jews were 80-90% S. Italian the haplogroups would be different. From an autosomal perspective, you are also wrong in my opinion. Look, the debate about Western Jews' autosomal composition is by no means settled (there's a giant thread on it), but I was trying to settle a debate on SSA, not what you are discussing, which really doesn't belong in this thread in my opinion. My model is heavily based on the G25 World K=8 calculator in Vahaduo. The only thing I changed from that calculator was I took the "African" component and split it into Dinka and Yoruba to settle this debate about East vs West SSA in Jews. The sources I have are: Atlantic, Caucasian, Mediterranean, East_Asian, Baltic, Amerindian, South_Asian, Dinka, and Yoruba, the last two substituting the general "African" component in the original calculator's sources. These components have nothing to do with North or South Italian and we were really focusing on the SSA parts in this thread. I wasn't trying to make any arguments about North/South Italian, and although like most people I have political views, they have nothing to do with SSA ancestry in Jews. If you want a debate about North vs South Italian ancestry in Jews, I recommend taking it to the Western Jews thread.
South Italians/Sicilians are heavily Greek admixed, both Islander and Mainland Greece.
So we also need to include Greeks in this discussion.

if Jews were 80-90% S. Italian the haplogroups would be different.
Missed the part about a genetic bottleneck and founder effect, genetic drift?

drobbah
07-06-2020, 11:32 PM
Some Natufian individuals in the future(ancient levantines as well) might show some Dinka like admixture because there were migrations from north africa to east africa and comebacks.But not crazy things and not more than 10-15%.
Dinka ancestry in East Africa was brought by Cushitic Pastoralists, it isn't indigenous to East Africa but North Africa/Sahara

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 11:35 PM
The Ancient Levantine samples don't have Dinka admixture and the Natufians aren't 11% SSA

Please see the model I posted earlier that shows an E. African, Dinka-like admixture in Natufians and Ancient Levantines. Feel free to disagree with it but note its existence and the persistent evidence of modern Jewish groups that never experienced recent SSA admixture having 2-3% Dinka-like admixture or even more than 3% in the case of the Samaritans, Syrian Jews, Iraqi Jews, and outliers (such as myself) from other Jewish groups.

Johnny ola
07-06-2020, 11:38 PM
Dinka ancestry in East Africa was brought by Cushitic Pastoralists, it isn't indigenous to East Africa but North Africa/Sahara

This is most likely the source of Eastern African related admixture among Natufians i guess.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savanna_Pastoral_Neolithic


These people were mostly E1B1 if i am not mistaken.

drobbah
07-06-2020, 11:41 PM
This is most likely the source of Eastern African related admixture among Natufians i guess.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savanna_Pastoral_Neolithic


These people were mostly E1B1 if i am not mistaken.
Dinka-like populations and Natufian-like West Eurasians intermingled in Northern Africa probably in modern Northern Sudan.East African indigenous folks were completely different from the Dinka.The Cushitic pastoralists brought Dinka admixture to the Horn and beyond

Johnny ola
07-06-2020, 11:43 PM
Please see the model I posted earlier that shows an E. African, Dinka-like admixture in Natufians and Ancient Levantines. Feel free to disagree with it but note its existence and the persistent evidence of modern Jewish groups that never experienced recent SSA admixture having 2-3% Dinka-like admixture or even more than 3% in the case of the Samaritans, Syrian Jews, Iraqi Jews, and outliers (such as myself) from other Jewish groups.

I will give you my coordinates can you model me?


Ioannis_scaled,0.10927,0.144205,-0.057699,-0.072998,-0.016618,-0.02259,0.003055,0.003231,-0.032315,0.002369,0.013641,0.005245,-0.005649,0.011147,-0.008007,-0.020154,-0.012647,-0.001647,0.000628,0.001751,-0.00025,0.002597,-0.008751,-0.008555,-0.003233


Theodora_scaled,0.10927,0.140143,-0.059585,-0.073967,-0.020927,-0.026216,0.00517,0,-0.039678,0.00492,0.001137,0.007044,-0.006095,0.001651,-0.015201,-0.010077,0.009257,-0.005574,-0.003645,0.002751,-0.002745,0.000618,-0.003697,-0.012773,0.000599



Both me and my mother we are heavily Levantine admixed(probably crypto-jewish ancestry).Model me with Dinka refrence plss.

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 11:43 PM
South Italians/Sicilians are heavily Greek admixed, both Islander and Mainland Greece.
So we also need to include Greeks in this discussion.

Missed the part about a genetic bottleneck and founder effect, genetic drift?

Again, see the Western Jews thread.
A brief response: 50-70% Levant + 30-40% N. Italian/Swiss Italian + 5-10% West + East Europe gets you to about where Sicilians/Maltese/Greek Islanders are. That is how to explain your distance chart. By the way your target there is Sicilian_West, you should use an Ashkenazi group. Also, (at least in my opinion) the similarity of specific clades between Ashkenazi Jews and other Jewish and Levantine groups is too close to just say genetic bottleneck from S. Italy. Studies of the bottleneck still come to the conclusion that it was mostly Levantine + N. Italian. South Italy during late antiquity just had to much I1 and R on the paternal side to give genetic bottleneck as a feasible option for why Jews descend from S. Italians but have such different haplogroups. Even from the mtDNA perspective, S. Italians have a lot of H1 + H3 compared to Jews who largely have other forms of H. Anyways, autosomal and haplogroup evidence seems to be against you, despite your effort to just call everything genetic drift/founder effect. Take it to the Western Jews thread.

Johnny ola
07-06-2020, 11:44 PM
Dinka-like populations and Natufian-like West Eurasians intermingled in Northern Africa probably in modern Northern Sudan.East African indigenous folks were completely different from the Dinka.The Cushitic pastoralists brought Dinka admixture to the Horn and beyond

Ok fair enough the pre-dinka component there was ssa?I mean in modern Somalia for example.

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 11:45 PM
Dinka ancestry in East Africa was brought by Cushitic Pastoralists, it isn't indigenous to East Africa but North Africa/Sahara

Interesting point. Like I said I am not the expert on East Africa. Any suggestions for a better component that would reflect indigenous E. Africa. I always thought that was Dinka but if you have a better idea I can adjust the model and see if the results come out drastically different.

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 11:49 PM
Dinka-like populations and Natufian-like West Eurasians intermingled in Northern Africa probably in modern Northern Sudan.East African indigenous folks were completely different from the Dinka.The Cushitic pastoralists brought Dinka admixture to the Horn and beyond

This is very interesting. Since the Natufians were pretty much all E1b1b1b2 if these Cushitic pastoralists were also E1b1b1 they might have been the Africans that the Natufians mixed with. Anyways, there is some sort of SSA (maybe not from indigenous E. Africans but at least these Cushitic people) that Jews today have derived from the Natufians.

drobbah
07-06-2020, 11:49 PM
Ok fair enough the pre-dinka component there was ssa?I mean in modern Somalia for example.
Just like there is different West Eurasian populations, there are even more various & divergent populations from SSA.The indigenous populations of the Horn were similar to Mota

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 11:51 PM
Just like there is different West Eurasian populations, there are even more various & divergent populations from SSA.The indigenous populations of the Horn were similar to Mota

If that is the case you are probably right about the Cushitic people being the source of the SSA. Levantines don't get any Mota if I recall correctly (I think I tried that once).

jkotl0327
07-06-2020, 11:53 PM
I will give you my coordinates can you model me?


Ioannis_scaled,0.10927,0.144205,-0.057699,-0.072998,-0.016618,-0.02259,0.003055,0.003231,-0.032315,0.002369,0.013641,0.005245,-0.005649,0.011147,-0.008007,-0.020154,-0.012647,-0.001647,0.000628,0.001751,-0.00025,0.002597,-0.008751,-0.008555,-0.003233


Theodora_scaled,0.10927,0.140143,-0.059585,-0.073967,-0.020927,-0.026216,0.00517,0,-0.039678,0.00492,0.001137,0.007044,-0.006095,0.001651,-0.015201,-0.010077,0.009257,-0.005574,-0.003645,0.002751,-0.002745,0.000618,-0.003697,-0.012773,0.000599



Both me and my mother we are heavily Levantine admixed(probably crypto-jewish ancestry).Model me with Dinka refrence plss.

Yes, here:38300
Looks like no Dinka. The SSA component in Jews/pre-Arab Levantines is so small though that if the ancestry was very distant it probably doesn't show through.

Johnny ola
07-06-2020, 11:54 PM
This is very interesting. Since the Natufians were pretty much all E1b1b1b2 if these Cushitic pastoralists were also E1b1b1 they might have been the Africans that the Natufians mixed with. Anyways, there is some sort of SSA (maybe not from indigenous E. Africans but at least these Cushitic people) that Jews today have derived from the Natufians.

Ok ty.

BalkanKiwi
07-06-2020, 11:56 PM
Yes, here:38300
Looks like no Dinka. The SSA component in Jews/pre-Arab Levantines is so small though that if the ancestry was very distant it probably doesn't show through.

I should note I recreated your model and my grandfather doesn't get any Dinka either. It only seems to appear when I scale down the populations, i.e. the models on previous pages.

Moderator
07-07-2020, 12:04 AM
This is a general warning for everyone to please be civil with your use of language. Thanks.

Johnny ola
07-07-2020, 12:05 AM
Anyway there is not SSA admixture in Natufians.And Jews rarely show ssa.Most of them actually and especially Askhenazi are more frenquent to show East Asian.Also the majority of Cannanite samples we got have nothing to do with ssa.If i am not mistaken only 1 from modern Lebanon show's some african related admixture.

Khazar
07-07-2020, 12:38 AM
Again, see the Western Jews thread.
A brief response: 50-70% Levant + 30-40% N. Italian/Swiss Italian + 5-10% West + East Europe gets you to about where Sicilians/Maltese/Greek Islanders are. That is how to explain your distance chart. By the way your target there is Sicilian_West, you should use an Ashkenazi group. Also, (at least in my opinion) the similarity of specific clades between Ashkenazi Jews and other Jewish and Levantine groups is too close to just say genetic bottleneck from S. Italy. Studies of the bottleneck still come to the conclusion that it was mostly Levantine + N. Italian. South Italy during late antiquity just had to much I1 and R on the paternal side to give genetic bottleneck as a feasible option for why Jews descend from S. Italians but have such different haplogroups. Even from the mtDNA perspective, S. Italians have a lot of H1 + H3 compared to Jews who largely have other forms of H. Anyways, autosomal and haplogroup evidence seems to be against you, despite your effort to just call everything genetic drift/founder effect. Take it to the Western Jews thread.

A brief response: 50-70% Levant + 30-40% N. Italian/Swiss Italian + 5-10% West + East Europe gets you to about where Sicilians/Maltese/Greek Islanders are.
Of course that would ignore the historical fact of Greek and Roman Jewish communities that are well over 2000 years old and not in the North of Italy.
At this time in Jewish history conversion to Judaism was common in ancient Rome among all ranks of the Roman society including the imperial families.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964539/
Greek Islander Jews also date to well over 2000 years ago and perhaps nearly 2400 years ago, and they also were taking on local converts.

By the way your target there is Sicilian_West, you should use an Ashkenazi group. Also, (at least in my opinion) the similarity of specific clades between Ashkenazi Jews and other Jewish and Levantine groups is too close to just say genetic bottleneck from S. Italy.
https://i.ibb.co/YTqhCGJ/Screenshot-2020-07-06-Eurogenes-K15-updated-spreadsheet-Vahaduo-JS-19-11-2.png
https://i.ibb.co/hfZmp5M/Screenshot-2020-07-06-G25-Modern-Averages-scaled-official-datasheet-Vahaduo-JS-19-11-2.png

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Kit T542412

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 32.33
2 North_Atlantic 18.39
3 West_Med 15.84
4 Baltic 12.07
5 West_Asian 11.41
6 Red_Sea 5.59
7 Northeast_African 1.15
8 Sub-Saharan 1.07
9 Amerindian 0.93
10 Oceanian 0.56
11 East_Asian 0.34
12 South_Asian 0.28
13 Siberian 0.07

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ashkenazi 4.77
2 East_Sicilian 6.67
3 Central_Greek 7.25
4 Italian_Abruzzo 8.22
5 West_Sicilian 8.45
6 Greek_Thessaly 8.66
7 South_Italian 9.09
8 Italian_Jewish 11.35
9 Sephardic_Jewish11.41
10 Algerian_Jewish 12.16
11 Tuscan 12.91
12 Tunisian_Jewish 14.41
13 Libyan_Jewish15.04
14 Bulgarian15.75
15 Romanian 17.67
16 Cyprian 18.03
17 North_Italian 18.91
18 Lebanese_Muslim 20.19
19 Syrian 21.07
20 Serbian 21.41

drobbah
07-07-2020, 12:44 AM
If that is the case you are probably right about the Cushitic people being the source of the SSA. Levantines don't get any Mota if I recall correctly (I think I tried that once).
I never said Jews had Cushitic ancestry, I said if there is very minor Dinka-like ancestry in those Levantine BA or Iron Age samples it was probably brought by the Ancient Egyptians.

Adules
07-07-2020, 12:58 AM
Old Egyptians had practically no SSA that'd get into Hebrews.

drobbah
07-07-2020, 01:13 AM
Old Egyptians had practically no SSA that'd get into Hebrews.
Neither of us can say for certain as we don't have any old kingdom samples or older samples but even these later period Egyptian samples that are available have Dinka ancestry.

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 01:29 AM
I should note I recreated your model and my grandfather doesn't get any Dinka either. It only seems to appear when I scale down the populations, i.e. the models on previous pages.

The model I used is very rudimentary and broad, also some SSA may be packed into Mediterranean. For the sake of time I largely depended on an existing calculator rather than customizing my own. For someone who is not fully Jewish or Levantine you would probably need a more sensitive calculator that takes into ample account their other ancestries (which you did before by including English and your other ancestries). What percent Ashkenazi is your grandfather? If he is 25% or less, I would say a much more sensitive model is needed.

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 01:31 AM
Anyway there is not SSA admixture in Natufians.And Jews rarely show ssa.Most of them actually and especially Askhenazi are more frenquent to show East Asian.Also the majority of Cannanite samples we got have nothing to do with ssa.If i am not mistaken only 1 from modern Lebanon show's some african related admixture.

According to the model, Natufians have East SSA as do their Levantine descendants. In fact, looking at the averages of the model, Ashkenazim would have more SSA than E. Asian. Look at a model I made far back on the thread that showed Canaanite samples that did have SSA. Feel free to disagree with the model.

passenger
07-07-2020, 01:53 AM
Out of curiosity, what do we know about the Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic samples in G25? At first glance they seem to me to be among the only Levantine samples from the Iron Age and Classical Antiquity to consistently show a very minor, but significant affinity with both ancient and modern East African populations. Not implying that potential SSA necessarily comes through Levantine sources, or that those samples would necessarily have a connection to modern Jewish populations - just curious.

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 01:53 AM
Of course that would ignore the historical fact of Greek and Roman Jewish communities that are well over 2000 years old and not in the North of Italy.
At this time in Jewish history conversion to Judaism was common in ancient Rome among all ranks of the Roman society including the imperial families.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964539/
Greek Islander Jews also date to well over 2000 years ago and perhaps nearly 2400 years ago, and they also were taking on local converts.

https://i.ibb.co/YTqhCGJ/Screenshot-2020-07-06-Eurogenes-K15-updated-spreadsheet-Vahaduo-JS-19-11-2.png
https://i.ibb.co/hfZmp5M/Screenshot-2020-07-06-G25-Modern-Averages-scaled-official-datasheet-Vahaduo-JS-19-11-2.png

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Kit T542412

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 32.33
2 North_Atlantic 18.39
3 West_Med 15.84
4 Baltic 12.07
5 West_Asian 11.41
6 Red_Sea 5.59
7 Northeast_African 1.15
8 Sub-Saharan 1.07
9 Amerindian 0.93
10 Oceanian 0.56
11 East_Asian 0.34
12 South_Asian 0.28
13 Siberian 0.07

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ashkenazi 4.77
2 East_Sicilian 6.67
3 Central_Greek 7.25
4 Italian_Abruzzo 8.22
5 West_Sicilian 8.45
6 Greek_Thessaly 8.66
7 South_Italian 9.09
8 Italian_Jewish 11.35
9 Sephardic_Jewish11.41
10 Algerian_Jewish 12.16
11 Tuscan 12.91
12 Tunisian_Jewish 14.41
13 Libyan_Jewish15.04
14 Bulgarian15.75
15 Romanian 17.67
16 Cyprian 18.03
17 North_Italian 18.91
18 Lebanese_Muslim 20.19
19 Syrian 21.07
20 Serbian 21.41

Are you using G25, I don't think so because if you were, there wouldn't be an "Ashkenazi," rather Ashkenazi split up by different countries. So what are you using if not G25? Also, whose GEDMATCH kit is that? They do seem slightly Euro-shifted for an Ashkenazi but that is beside the point. These distances do not corroborate either the theory that I am advocating for or the one you are advocating for, both are plausible given the distance data. The study from 2010 has a lot of issues and there are far more recent studies you can cite. It marks "Italians" an extremely diverse group as one point on a PCA chart. Which Italians did they use, north or south? Also, their whole argument is based on genetic distance, which alone is faulty for the reasons I already mentioned. The placement of populations like Moroccan Jews on their PCA is completely different to where we know Moroccan Jews to plot today, maybe because they only used 17 autosomal markers in a manner similar to CODIS and other crime databases. Also, their YDNA and mtDNA plots both put Jews much closer to Syrians and even Palestinians than Italians, so this study has inconsistent data. The author then goes on to cite phenotypic surveys as further "evidence" of Ashkenazi Jews being Italians. Overall, the number of studies since 2010 that have debunked silliness like the study above is very large and I encourage you to read them. This study cites Ashkenazim having haplogroup R at frequencies of 12% as further evidence of Ashkenazim being "European" even though more recent studies have determined that many of those clades are Middle Eastern. This study uses extremely dubious genetic distance methods and makes outlandish claims about other studies not considering Mediterranean populations. Many studies since have used far more sound methodology and have included Mediterranean populations and have not reached the same result as this author.

Of course there were communities of Greek and Roman Jews that accepted some converts, but the amount of converts accepted compared to the Israelite population that was later exiled was fairly small. Studies of the genetic bottleneck of Ashkenazim have determined that the European admixture largely originates from converts from the Early Middle Ages in North Italy. Although there is some S. Italian and Greek ancestry in the Ashkenazi gene pool, it pales in comparison to the impact that Levantines and North Italians have made. Please do more research, and again, see the Western Jews thread! I have found it very informative and it contains a very diverse range of opinions, many of which I vehemently disagree with. It is still a pretty good thread.

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 01:55 AM
Neither of us can say for certain as we don't have any old kingdom samples or older samples but even these later period Egyptian samples that are available have Dinka ancestry.

I acknowledge that it is a possibility that East SSA ancestry from Ancient Egyptians ended up in the gene pool of the Ancient Hebrews but because the Natufians seem to have at least an affinity or common ancestry with Dinka/East SSA, and given the information about the historical spread of haplogroup E, I still think the Natufian theory is more likely. Even though Ancient Egyptians definitely played some role in the Ancient Hebrew gene pool.

BalkanKiwi
07-07-2020, 02:03 AM
The model I used is very rudimentary and broad, also some SSA may be packed into Mediterranean. For the sake of time I largely depended on an existing calculator rather than customizing my own. For someone who is not fully Jewish or Levantine you would probably need a more sensitive calculator that takes into ample account their other ancestries (which you did before by including English and your other ancestries). What percent Ashkenazi is your grandfather? If he is 25% or less, I would say a much more sensitive model is needed.

He's no more than 12.5% from what is currently known about this side of the tree. This would explain why specific modelling is needed just to potentially show any SSA. As previously mentioned, my knowledge of history of the region is not as good as many of you. Is the possible assumption/pathway of how any SSA made it into Ashkenazi essentially Cushitic -> Natufian -> then eventually modern day Ashkenazi? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Khazar
07-07-2020, 02:15 AM
Are you using G25, I don't think so because if you were, there wouldn't be an "Ashkenazi," rather Ashkenazi split up by different countries. So what are you using if not G25? Also, whose GEDMATCH kit is that? They do seem slightly Euro-shifted for an Ashkenazi but that is beside the point. These distances do not corroborate either the theory that I am advocating for or the one you are advocating for, both are plausible given the distance data. The study from 2010 has a lot of issues and there are far more recent studies you can cite. It marks "Italians" an extremely diverse group as one point on a PCA chart. Which Italians did they use, north or south? Also, their whole argument is based on genetic distance, which alone is faulty for the reasons I already mentioned. The placement of populations like Moroccan Jews on their PCA is completely different to where we know Moroccan Jews to plot today, maybe because they only used 17 autosomal markers in a manner similar to CODIS and other crime databases. Also, their YDNA and mtDNA plots both put Jews much closer to Syrians and even Palestinians than Italians, so this study has inconsistent data. The author then goes on to cite phenotypic surveys as further "evidence" of Ashkenazi Jews being Italians. Overall, the number of studies since 2010 that have debunked silliness like the study above is very large and I encourage you to read them. This study cites Ashkenazim having haplogroup R at frequencies of 12% as further evidence of Ashkenazim being "European" even though more recent studies have determined that many of those clades are Middle Eastern. This study uses extremely dubious genetic distance methods and makes outlandish claims about other studies not considering Mediterranean populations. Many studies since have used far more sound methodology and have included Mediterranean populations and have not reached the same result as this author.

Of course there were communities of Greek and Roman Jews that accepted some converts, but the amount of converts accepted compared to the Israelite population that was later exiled was fairly small. Studies of the genetic bottleneck of Ashkenazim have determined that the European admixture largely originates from converts from the Early Middle Ages in North Italy. Although there is some S. Italian and Greek ancestry in the Ashkenazi gene pool, it pales in comparison to the impact that Levantines and North Italians have made. Please do more research, and again, see the Western Jews thread! I have found it very informative and it contains a very diverse range of opinions, many of which I vehemently disagree with. It is still a pretty good thread.
LOL.

Are you using G25, I don't think so because if you were, there wouldn't be an "Ashkenazi," rather Ashkenazi split up by different countries. So what are you using if not G25?
https://i.ibb.co/wSSybFS/Screenshot-2020-07-06-G25-Modern-Averages-scaled-official-datasheet-Vahaduo-JS-19-11-2-1.png

Also, whose GEDMATCH kit is that? They do seem slightly Euro-shifted for an Ashkenazi but that is beside the point.
Ashkenazi kit is pretty run of the mill and he scores 27.99 on J-test, average is 28.90.
Here is a screenshot with the exact K15 averages from their spreadsheet:
https://i.ibb.co/CW0z3ss/Screenshot-2020-07-06-Eurogenes-K15-updated-spreadsheet-Vahaduo-JS-19-11-2-1.png


This study cites Ashkenazim having haplogroup R at frequencies of 12% as further evidence of Ashkenazim being "European" even though more recent studies have determined that many of those clades are Middle Eastern.
It's a revelation that a population that is Greco Roman in origin has Middle Eastern ancestry?
You do realize that those "Middle Eastern," both paternal and maternal lines were the product of Greco Roman introgression into the Ashkenazim genome?

A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3543
The fourth major Ashkenazi founder mtDNA falls within haplogroup N1b (ref. 2). The distribution of N1b is much more focused on the Near East than that of haplogroup K (ref. 24), and the distinctive Ashkenazi N1b2 subclade has accordingly being assigned to a Levantine source2. N1b2 has until now been found exclusively in Ashkenazim, and although it dates to only ~2.3 ka, it diverged from other N1b lineages ~20 ka (ref. 24) (Supplementary Table S5). N1b2 can be recognized in the HVS-I database by the variant 16176A, but Behar et al.2 tested 14 Near Eastern samples (and some east Europeans) with this motif and identified it as a parallel mutation. Therefore, despite the long branch leading to N1b2, no Near Eastern samples are known to belong to it.

In our unpublished database of 6991 HVS-I sequences, however, we identified two Italian samples with the 16176A marker, which we completely sequenced. We confirmed that they belong to N1b2 but diverge before the Ashkenazi lineages ~5 ka, nesting the Ashkenazi cluster (Fig. 6; Supplementary Table S5). This striking result suggests that the Italian lineages may be relicts of a dispersal from the Near East into Europe before 5 ka, and that N1b2 was assimilated into the ancestral Ashkenazi population on the north Mediterranean ~2 ka. Although we found only two samples suggesting an Italian ancestry for N1b2, the control-region database available for inspection is very large (28,418 HVS-I sequences from Europe, the Near East and the Caucasus, of which 278, or ~1%, were N1b). Moreover, the conclusion is supported by our previous founder analysis of N1b HVS-I sequences, which dated the dispersal into Europe to the late Pleistocene/early Holocene24.
Massively biased and arbitrary and capricious for you to think that having very substantial Middle Eastern ancestry excludes a population from being an autochthonous European population.
You're writing off much of Southern Europe as the Northern Levant in the process.

Mod said to keep it civil, so I will end my conversation with you now.
Goodbye.

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 02:29 AM
Out of curiosity, what do we know about the Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic samples in G25? At first glance they seem to me to be among the only Levantine samples from the Iron Age and Classical Antiquity to consistently show a very minor, but significant affinity with both ancient and modern East African populations. Not implying that potential SSA necessarily comes through Levantine sources, or that those samples would necessarily have a connection to modern Jewish populations - just curious.

In my model (for more details see previous posts) this Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic average comes out to 6.4% Dinka. That is much higher than BA/IA Levantine samples, or modern Jews/Samaritans. I think more investigation is needed as to why this specific sample has higher than normal SSA for Levantine. to be clear, according to the model I used, all Levantines, including Jews have some Ancient East SSA or Dinka-like admixture. This is from a very ancient source. This usually does not exceed 3-4% so 6.4% is very rare.

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 02:43 AM
He's no more than 12.5% from what is currently known about this side of the tree. This would explain why specific modelling is needed just to potentially show any SSA. As previously mentioned, my knowledge of history of the region is not as good as many of you. Is the possible assumption/pathway of how any SSA made it into Ashkenazi essentially Cushitic -> Natufian -> then eventually modern day Ashkenazi? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

In my opinion that is the pathway. Some have suggested that it is derived at least partially from an Ancient Egyptian source as well. I think that looking at your ancestry on paper signature, Ashkenazi is the only source where you could have gotten the SSA from your model, which was more customized to your specific case. Mine was probably just too rudimentary.

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 02:57 AM
LOL.

https://i.ibb.co/wSSybFS/Screenshot-2020-07-06-G25-Modern-Averages-scaled-official-datasheet-Vahaduo-JS-19-11-2-1.png

Ashkenazi kit is pretty run of the mill and he scores 27.99 on J-test, average is 28.90.
Mod said to keep it civil, so I will end my conversation with you now.
Goodbye.

It is kind of upsetting that you cannot "keep it civil" without ending the conversation. No one is disputing those distances but using genetic distance alone to prove your theory is logically fallacious. For reference, here is Ashkenazi_Germany as well, which is closer to Italian and Sepharic Jews than South Italians. Also, just to show that not all Ashkenazim are exactly the same, I included myself, as I am closer to Italian, Sephardic, Moroccan, an Romaniote Jews than South Italians. Feel free not to respond to this but I hope you choose to participate in a conversation in the Western Jews thread.

Ashkenazi_Germany: 38301
Me: 38302

BalkanKiwi
07-07-2020, 04:21 AM
In my opinion that is the pathway. Some have suggested that it is derived at least partially from an Ancient Egyptian source as well. I think that looking at your ancestry on paper signature, Ashkenazi is the only source where you could have gotten the SSA from your model, which was more customized to your specific case. Mine was probably just too rudimentary.

As my grandfather's only other known ancestry besides Ashkenazi is Scottish and English, it makes logical sense. I attempted to model him using ancient samples. He scores 1-2.5% on a number of ancient Kenyan and Tanzanian ones individually, so I tried an OptimaFit using the below model:

https://i.imgur.com/yCUqDfw.jpg

The result:

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.4136
Results:Scotland LBA93.8
Pastoral N o3.8
Levant ISR MLBA2.4

Its possible I've made a poor model, as I wasn't expecting an ancient Kenyan sample to score higher than a Levant sample.

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 05:24 AM
As my grandfather's only other known ancestry besides Ashkenazi is Scottish and English, it makes logical sense. I attempted to model him using ancient samples. He scores 1-2.5% on a number of ancient Kenyan and Tanzanian ones individually, so I tried an OptimaFit using the below model:

https://i.imgur.com/yCUqDfw.jpg

The result:

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.4136
Results:Scotland LBA93.8
Pastoral N o3.8
Levant ISR MLBA2.4

Its possible I've made a poor model, as I wasn't expecting an ancient Kenyan sample to score higher than a Levant sample.

Maybe overfitting? I would stick to the first Early Pastoral N and delete all the other African components. Also, Levant 1247 BC probably has some SSA embedded within it, so maybe try something more Northern like Arslanstepe that wouldn't have any SSA? It would be interesting to see England + Scotland + Arslanstepe + Early Pastoral. Like I said earlier, I'm no expert on East Africa, but it seems like the East SSA we are talking about has its origin in Nilotic Pastoralist groups like the Dinka, Nuer, Samburu, Ariaal, etc. Assuming that this Kenyan Pastoralist N component represents the ancestors of Nilotic people like the Dinka, I think that's the best component to use.

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 05:30 AM
As my grandfather's only other known ancestry besides Ashkenazi is Scottish and English, it makes logical sense. I attempted to model him using ancient samples. He scores 1-2.5% on a number of ancient Kenyan and Tanzanian ones individually, so I tried an OptimaFit using the below model:

https://i.imgur.com/yCUqDfw.jpg

The result:

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.4136
Results:Scotland LBA93.8
Pastoral N o3.8
Levant ISR MLBA2.4

Its possible I've made a poor model, as I wasn't expecting an ancient Kenyan sample to score higher than a Levant sample.

I apologize for my earlier post, I would not recommend using this Pastoralist component. Modeling seems to place it at about 17% Levant/Caucasian/Central Asia, which I don't understand, but clearly gives it a northern shift which might explain the issues with your results.

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 05:40 AM
I apologize for my earlier post, I would not recommend using this Pastoralist component. Modeling seems to place it at about 17% Levant/Caucasian/Central Asia, which I don't understand, but clearly gives it a northern shift which might explain the issues with your results.

Maybe try Kenya LSA?

BalkanKiwi
07-07-2020, 05:57 AM
Maybe try Kenya LSA?

I modified the populations so they are in the same time period. Nothing comes up for LSA, but once again a Pastoral population does:

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.418
Results:England Roman96.5
Levant LBN Roman2
Pastoral IA1.5

It seems the only Kenyan populations that are scored are the Pastoral ones.

I ran the Tanzanian BCE populations individually. Are the PN's ones Pastoral? The only BCE population he doesn't score any for is Pemba.

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.4493
Results:Scotland LBA95
Levant ISR MLBA3
Luxmanda 3100BP2

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.4497
Results:Scotland LBA96
Levant ISR MLBA2.5
TZA PN1.5

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.443
Results:Scotland LBA94.5
TZA PN o3
Levant ISR MLBA2.5

EDIT: After searching PN likely stands for Pastoral Neolithic. Now I know.

Caius Agrippa
07-07-2020, 06:44 AM
Jews do not have Sub-Saharan African ancestry in any meaningful way. The problem with those free tools like GEDmatch and G25 is that most people cannot interpret the results, so they assume that scoring 1% or 2% of anything means you have actual relationship with this population when in reality it's not ''really there'', it can be just a ''proxy'' for other type of ancestry (remember: many ancient populations and components haven't been isolated or studied yet) or something regarding your raw data. Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews might score African but it doesn't mean they have actual SSA ancestry. That's why I am a fan of the way tests like 23andme report ancestry, it is far less confusing and it's less likely to induce people to conclude absurdities even if it cannot be used to estimate things like ''ancient ancestry'' or ''medieval ancestry'' (which are pretty much irrelevant anyway, at this point in time you have much more than 1000 ancestors, you hardly can locate all of them and certainly many didn't even passed DNA to you).

Generalissimo
07-07-2020, 06:57 AM
Jews do not have Sub-Saharan African ancestry in any meaningful way. The problem with those free tools like GEDmatch and G25 is that most people cannot interpret the results, so they assume that scoring 1% or 2% of anything means you have actual relationship with this population when in reality it's not ''really there'', it can be just a ''proxy'' for other type of ancestry (remember: many ancient populations and components haven't been isolated or studied yet) or something regarding your raw data. Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews might score African but it doesn't mean they have actual SSA ancestry. That's why I am a fan of the way tests like 23andme report ancestry, it is far less confusing and it's less likely to induce people to conclude absurdities even if it cannot be used to estimate things like ''ancient ancestry'' or ''medieval ancestry'' (which are pretty much irrelevant anyway, at this point in time you have much more than 1000 ancestors, you hardly can locate all of them and certainly many didn't even passed DNA to you).

Sorry, but Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews do have minor Sub-Saharan ancestry, mediated via North Africa. This shows up in all sorts of analyses, including those based on haplotypes and mito-genomes.

Of course, 23andMe lumps the very complex ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews into a single, recent cluster, that's why the African ancestry hardly ever shows up there.

Seabass
07-07-2020, 07:05 AM
Something I've noticed too is that Moroccan Jews can be from anywhere between 10% and even above 20% Berber based off 23andme and G25 findings together, yet if you analyse them and Berber-Arabs with G25, you will always find SSA in the Berber-Arabs but never any in the Moroccan Jews (admittedly a low sample of just 4 in G25....) despite having considerable Berber admixture.

Generalissimo
07-07-2020, 07:11 AM
Something I've noticed too is that Moroccan Jews can be from anywhere between 10% and even above 20% Berber based off 23andme and G25 findings together, yet if you analyse them and Berber-Arabs with G25, you will always find SSA in the Berber-Arabs but never any in the Moroccan Jews (admittedly a low sample of just 4 in G25....) despite having considerable Berber admixture.

It should show up, even if it's masked by recent drift, especially in models based on proximate ancient samples. All western Jews have minor African ancestry.

I can't believe there's actually a debate here about whether western Jews have African ancestry. Of course they do, and this has been known for a long time.

BalkanKiwi
07-07-2020, 07:34 AM
It should show up, even if it's masked by recent drift, especially in models based on proximate ancient samples. All western Jews have minor African ancestry.

I can't believe there's actually a debate here about whether western Jews have African ancestry. Of course they do, and this has been known for a long time.

For what its worth, I've found enough of my own evidence from what I've posted in this thread, in addition to the literature that already supports African ancestry in Western Jews, that indeed there shouldn't be a debate. I've attempted, and I call them attempts because its probably impossible, especially for someone like myself who is not as skilled or knowledgeable in this area, to see if its possible to narrow down the possible African sources that contributed African ancestry to Western Jews, whether that's Dinka for example, or something else entirely. It may be a waste of time in the end.

Echo
07-07-2020, 07:59 AM
It's Berber admixture. On G25 all Western Jews including Ashkenazi Jews core significant Taforalt on per practically with Portuguese.

During the Roman Era alot of Jews from South Europe moved to North Africa and alot of Jews from North Africa moved to South Europe. They had the same culture and identity, no distinct identities were born yet. In Italy Jews came from all over the Roman Empire but North African Jews were particularly hugely numerous. Many were expelled out of Libya and Cyprus during the Kitos wars.

There was a period of time in the Roman period where Jews thrived and became hugely numerous due to Romanus pactus. Some claimed as high as 10% of the Roman Empire was Jewish which is obviously exagerated but there was clearly a period of time where Jews from South Europe and North Africa mixed alot and became a huge population, outnumering Jews of the Eastern Mediterranean.

In Spain Jews came from Italy and the North African shores, sometimes directly from Levant but less so.

Generalissimo
07-07-2020, 08:02 AM
It's Berber admixture. On G25 all Western Jews including Ashkenazi Jews core significant Taforalt on per practically with Portuguese.

During the Roman Era alot of Jews from South Europe moved to North Africa and alot of Jews from North Africa moved to South Europe. They had the same culture and identity, no distinct identities were born yet. In Italy Jews came from all over the Roman Empire but North African Jews were particularly hugely numerous. Many were expelled out of Libya and Cyprus during the Kitos wars.

There was a period of time in the Roman period where Jews thrived and became hugely numerous due to Romanus pactus. Some claimed as high as 10% of the Roman Empire was Jewish which is obviously exagerated but there was clearly a period of time where Jews from South Europe and North Africa mixed alot and became a huge population, outnumering Jews of the Eastern Mediterranean.

In Spain Jews came from Italy and the North African shores, sometimes directly from Levant but less so.

From what I've heard, this will be backed up with ancient DNA later this year.

Seabass
07-07-2020, 09:06 AM
Something I've noticed too is that Moroccan Jews can be from anywhere between 10% and even above 20% Berber based off 23andme and G25 findings together, yet if you analyse them and Berber-Arabs with G25, you will always find SSA in the Berber-Arabs but never any in the Moroccan Jews (admittedly a low sample of just 4 in G25....) despite having considerable Berber admixture.

This is what I meant below. How Moroccan Jews can score 7% Tarofalt in that model with 0 SSA, though the Tunisian and Libyan Jews score some? Definitely, i've long believed all Western Jews have Berber DNA, whether as a trace level of DNA or a small fraction.

If you apply the model below to any non-Jewish North African population, whether modern or ancient, I'm sure they all would score SSA or East African too.

38315

For comparison below.

38316

BalkanKiwi
07-07-2020, 09:49 AM
It's Berber admixture. On G25 all Western Jews including Ashkenazi Jews core significant Taforalt on per practically with Portuguese.

During the Roman Era alot of Jews from South Europe moved to North Africa and alot of Jews from North Africa moved to South Europe. They had the same culture and identity, no distinct identities were born yet. In Italy Jews came from all over the Roman Empire but North African Jews were particularly hugely numerous. Many were expelled out of Libya and Cyprus during the Kitos wars.

There was a period of time in the Roman period where Jews thrived and became hugely numerous due to Romanus pactus. Some claimed as high as 10% of the Roman Empire was Jewish which is obviously exagerated but there was clearly a period of time where Jews from South Europe and North Africa mixed alot and became a huge population, outnumering Jews of the Eastern Mediterranean.

In Spain Jews came from Italy and the North African shores, sometimes directly from Levant but less so.

I've given the Loosdrecht et al paper a read to get a better understanding of Taforalt (I should have done this earlier). If what Generalissimo says regarding Berber admixture and ancient DNA pans out in the near future, do I potentially already have an answer to the question, in that Nigeria/Yoruba is one of the likely sources of African ancestry in Ashkenazi/Western Jews? I.e as a general pathway, Yoruba/Mende -> Taforalt -> Western Jews/Ashkenazi.

Caius Agrippa
07-07-2020, 06:14 PM
Sorry, but Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews do have minor Sub-Saharan ancestry, mediated via North Africa. This shows up in all sorts of analyses, including those based on haplotypes and mito-genomes.

Of course, 23andMe lumps the very complex ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews into a single, recent cluster, that's why the African ancestry hardly ever shows up there.

That's not exactly my point, I'm not saying they do not have any affinities with African-like populations. What I'm saying is that it can be silly to ''track it down'' as if it was some kind of recent ancestry, like some people here are doing, and for Jews to start saying they are ''part-Dinka'' or Yoruba (in a social way, not just genetic) or something in that vein. All populations with North African ancestry have some Sub-Saharan related ancestry, but correct me if I'm wrong, African ancestry in Jews is far older than 500 years ago, probably older than 1000 years ago because even in coastal North Africans it's mostly very old, to a point no single Jew can ever trace any African ancestor in a genealogical span of time. It's more or less part of the ''Ashkenazi'' and ''Sephardic'' clusters now.

Generalissimo
07-07-2020, 06:26 PM
That's not exactly my point, I'm not saying they do not have any affinities with African-like populations. What I'm saying is that it can be silly to ''track it down'' as if it was some kind of recent ancestry, like some people here are doing, and for Jews to start saying they are ''part-Dinka'' or Yoruba (in a social way, not just genetic) or something in that vein. All populations with North African ancestry have some Sub-Saharan related ancestry, but correct me if I'm wrong, African ancestry in Jews is far older than 500 years ago, probably older than 1000 years ago because even in coastal North Africans it's mostly very old, to a point no single Jew can ever trace any African ancestor in a genealogical span of time. It's more or less part of the ''Ashkenazi'' and ''Sephardic'' clusters now.

It's not just a matter of distant affinities. Western Jews actually do have recent African ancestry that reflects their history. Believe it or not, this is an interesting fact for many people, so much so that they want to investigate it in more detail.

Caius Agrippa
07-07-2020, 06:33 PM
It's not just a matter of distant affinities. Western Jews actually do have recent African ancestry that reflects their history

I didn't know about that, so I take my words back. I thought it was just a matter of ancient affinities (these are interesting as well, but you got my point).

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 07:37 PM
I modified the populations so they are in the same time period. Nothing comes up for LSA, but once again a Pastoral population does:

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.418
Results:England Roman96.5
Levant LBN Roman2
Pastoral IA1.5

It seems the only Kenyan populations that are scored are the Pastoral ones.

I ran the Tanzanian BCE populations individually. Are the PN's ones Pastoral? The only BCE population he doesn't score any for is Pemba.

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.4493
Results:Scotland LBA95
Levant ISR MLBA3
Luxmanda 3100BP2

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.4497
Results:Scotland LBA96
Levant ISR MLBA2.5
TZA PN1.5

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.443
Results:Scotland LBA94.5
TZA PN o3
Levant ISR MLBA2.5

EDIT: After searching PN likely stands for Pastoral Neolithic. Now I know.

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner, it took me some time to figure all this out because I am by no means an expert on E. Africa. Dinka seems to be your best bet as a modern population, but I understand you are looking for ancient. All of these Tanzanian and Kenyan samples seem to have some MENA/Natufian-like affinity (possibly common ancestry?), but after doing some more digging, it actually looks like Ethiopia 4500 BP is not admixed with MENA, which surprised me because it is Ethiopia, but like I said, I'm not the expert. The Tanzania/Kenya samples that you get a lot for produce unrealistic results in Jews (giving us 4-5% SSA) and Samaritans (giving them 10% SSA), I think due to MENA admixture/affinity. Anyways Ethiopia 4500 BP produces results almost exactly like Dinka, giving Jews around 2.5% and Samaritans 4%. I would say that it is your best bet for an ancient sample.

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 08:04 PM
Several users have again come back to two arguments:
a) Western Jews do not have significant recent SSA
b) Western Jews do have significant SSA mediated via Berber populations.

If you go back further on the thread, I created a rough model (based on the G25 K=8 world calculator with Dinka and Yoruba replacing "African") which (in my opinion) is evidence that (as some scientific papers have suggested) SSA ancestry exists in all Jewish groups, not just Western Jews, and does not seem to be from a West African -> Berber source, but rather the SSA seems to be E. African, or Dinka/indigenous-Ethiopian-like. Samaritans, and BA/IA Levantines all seem to have 3-4% Dinka-like SSA with modern Jewish groups (due to admixture) have a bit less, about 2-3% East SSA. Ashkenazim, in the model, show no Western African ancestry, rather seem to share that same E. SSA component with other Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews, Samaritans, and BA/IA Levantines (not including NA and Yemen Jews). In my opinion, this component comes through the Natufians, who get >10% East SSA, consistent with the spread of Y-DNA E and historical theories about relations between the ancient Middle East and East Africa. Please look at my model and judge for yourself. I do not believe that Western Jews have W. African ancestry via Berbers, just Berber admixture. Instead, I think that there is ample evidence for a very ancient shared East African source among all Levantines.

Model using Dinka:
38326

Model using Ethiopia_4500BP:
38327

BalkanKiwi
07-07-2020, 08:07 PM
That's not exactly my point, I'm not saying they do not have any affinities with African-like populations. What I'm saying is that it can be silly to ''track it down'' as if it was some kind of recent ancestry, like some people here are doing, and for Jews to start saying they are ''part-Dinka'' or Yoruba (in a social way, not just genetic) or something in that vein. All populations with North African ancestry have some Sub-Saharan related ancestry, but correct me if I'm wrong, African ancestry in Jews is far older than 500 years ago, probably older than 1000 years ago because even in coastal North Africans it's mostly very old, to a point no single Jew can ever trace any African ancestor in a genealogical span of time. It's more or less part of the ''Ashkenazi'' and ''Sephardic'' clusters now.

By some, I assume you're referring to me, in which case you haven't understood the point of this thread or what I'm trying to do. You also made an earlier comment which I gather was also directed at me. I'm not planning on waving a Yoruba flag in the street as I walk the dog. As Generalissimo mentions, some of us actually find it interesting that African DNA has contributed to Western Jew's, recent or not, and want to work out, or attempt to work out, which African populations might have done so.

Caius Agrippa
07-07-2020, 08:24 PM
By some, I assume you're referring to me, in which case you haven't understood the point of this thread or what I'm trying to do. You also made an earlier comment which I gather was also directed at me. I'm not planning on waving a Yoruba flag in the street as I walk the dog. As Generalissimo mentions, some of us actually find it interesting that African DNA has contributed to Western Jew's, recent or not, and want to work out, or attempt to work out, which African populations might have done so.

I think it's fair, I may have sounded rude without the intention of being so, my apologies if it looked like a personal attack. I just don't know how we can be so sure now about which type of African ancestry Jews as a whole have, because African populations are severely understudied and we have few samples of ancient African groups, be it North African or Sub-Saharan African, when compared to other worldwide populations. Even for persons with actual/recent African admixture it's very hard to track down what type of African it is, specially in cases in which you have a complex mix of North African and different types of SSA sometimes it's not really that easy to build a model.

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 08:28 PM
I think it's fair, I may have sounded rude without the intention of being so, my apologies if it looked like a personal attack. I just don't know how we can be so sure now about which type of African ancestry Jews as a whole have, because African populations are severely understudied and we have few samples of ancient African groups, be it North African or Sub-Saharan African, when compared to other worldwide populations. Even for persons with actual/recent African admixture it's very hard to track down what type of African it is, specially in cases in which you have a complex mix of North African and different types of SSA sometimes it's not really that easy to build a model.

38332
38333

Caius Agrippa
07-07-2020, 09:23 PM
38332
38333

I don't think these are good models because you didn't included Taforalt samples. If Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have North African ancestry then they should be modeled with North African samples. All North Africans have a substantial % of Taforalt. Of course Jews may have acquired more recent African ancestry through North Africa as well (in case of mixing with recently admixed Berbers).

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 09:34 PM
I don't think these are good models because you didn't included Taforalt samples. If Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have North African ancestry then they should be modeled with North African samples. All North Africans have a substantial % of Taforalt. Of course Jews may have acquired more recent African ancestry through North Africa as well (in case of mixing with recently admixed Berbers).

My goal was to go using only very rough components and then get more specific for African (based on G25 K=8 world calc). If the African came through Berber North Africa, it would be W. African or Yoruba-like, not Dinka-like as shown here. Adding in another more specific North Africa component would be overfitting since we already have a Mediterranean component here. Are you thinking that the Dinka would be swallowed by Taforalt? I disagree since that is NW Africa, not E Africa.

Caius Agrippa
07-07-2020, 09:44 PM
My goal was to go using only very rough components and then get more specific for African (based on G25 K=8 world calc). If the African came through Berber North Africa, it would be W. African or Yoruba-like, not Dinka-like as shown here. Adding in another more specific North Africa component would be overfitting since we already have a Mediterranean component here. Are you thinking that the Dinka would be swallowed by Taforalt? I disagree since that is NW Africa, not E Africa.

I'm not sure. But a better model would be one with more ''raw'' components. Dinka seem to be kind of different from Yoruba but it seems most Africans, be they North or Sub-Saharan, have important layers of Ancient North African ancestry, excepting Khoisans and similar groups. I remember reading in that Ancient Africa paper posted here that all groups in Africa have some type of relation with Taforalt-like populations. We don't even have a decent sampling of Taforalt/Iberomaurusian and other pre-historic North Africans and Sub-Saharan Africans at this point.

BalkanKiwi
07-07-2020, 10:52 PM
My goal was to go using only very rough components and then get more specific for African (based on G25 K=8 world calc). If the African came through Berber North Africa, it would be W. African or Yoruba-like, not Dinka-like as shown here. Adding in another more specific North Africa component would be overfitting since we already have a Mediterranean component here. Are you thinking that the Dinka would be swallowed by Taforalt? I disagree since that is NW Africa, not E Africa.

I've noticed sometimes mixing populations from different time periods can alter the results. It would be interesting to modify the K8 with all BCE samples and include Taforalt, if that is even possible.

EDIT:

He's a quick one I've done with Taforalt and the 4500BP Ethiopian sample, just to keep all the samples in BCE to see what happens.

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.5196
Results:Scotland LBA99
ETH 4500BP0.5
MAR Taforalt0.5

Replacing Ethiopia with Dinka:

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.516
Results:Scotland LBA99
Dinka0.5
MAR Taforalt0.5


Replacing Ethiopia with Yoruba (I think Yoruba is inflated in this model, as I added Levant to bring it down, which is expected as they are mixed time periods):

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.4367
Results:Scotland LBA94
Levant ISR MLBA3
Yoruba2.5
MAR Taforalt0.5

drobbah
07-07-2020, 11:46 PM
Ashkenazis don't have any 'traditional' SSA ancestry (Dinka,Yoruba,Mota,Pygmy or Khoisan) besides the deep unknown African component that makes up a third of the IAM.
Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 2.1906% / 0.02190630
29.4 TUR_Barcin_N
25.0 Yamnaya_UKR
15.8 TUR_Barcin_C
15.2 Levant_PPNC
5.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.4 Levant_Natufian
2.2 KAZ_Turk
1.4 WHG
0.8 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.9358% / 0.01935812
27.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.2 Yamnaya_UKR
17.0 TUR_Barcin_C
14.8 Levant_PPNC
8.0 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
3.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
3.4 KAZ_Turk
2.8 Levant_Natufian
1.4 MAR_Taforalt
0.8 WHG

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 2.0923% / 0.02092315
26.0 TUR_Barcin_N
22.8 Yamnaya_UKR
19.6 Levant_PPNC
18.6 TUR_Barcin_C
5.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 Levant_Natufian
1.6 KAZ_Turk
1.6 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
1.4 WHG
1.0 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.8522% / 0.01852163
28.4 TUR_Barcin_N
17.0 Yamnaya_UKR
13.2 Levant_PPNC
12.8 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
9.8 TUR_Barcin_C
7.8 Levant_PPNB
6.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 KAZ_Turk
1.2 MAR_Taforalt
1.0 WHG

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 1.4880% / 0.01487995
28.4 TUR_Barcin_N
16.2 Levant_PPNC
14.8 TUR_Barcin_C
13.8 Yamnaya_UKR
11.0 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
6.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.2 Levant_PPNB
1.6 MAR_Taforalt
1.2 WHG
1.0 Levant_Natufian



Sephardic Jews don't have any SSA ancestry

Target: Sephardic_Jew
Distance: 2.1354% / 0.02135368
27.4 TUR_Barcin_C
26.8 TUR_Barcin_N
15.4 Yamnaya_UKR
14.2 Levant_PPNC
8.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.6 Levant_Natufian
2.8 MAR_Taforalt



Jews from the Middle East & Africa (not including Yemenites or Beta Israel as both are basically converted locals).

Target: Syrian_Jew
Distance: 1.9343% / 0.01934342
43.2 TUR_Barcin_C
24.4 Levant_PPNC
10.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.4 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
4.0 Yamnaya_UKR
3.8 TUR_Barcin_N
3.2 Levant_Natufian
1.2 MAR_Taforalt
0.4 Yoruba

Target: Samaritan
Distance: 3.0254% / 0.03025366
33.0 TUR_Barcin_C
28.4 Levant_PPNC
18.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.4 Levant_PPNB
4.0 Levant_Natufian

Target: Karaite_Egypt
Distance: 2.7746% / 0.02774630
40.8 TUR_Barcin_C
30.4 Levant_PPNC
13.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.6 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
3.2 Levant_Natufian
1.4 Yoruba

Target: Moroccan_Jew
Distance: 2.2018% / 0.02201838
32.6 TUR_Barcin_C
20.4 Levant_PPNC
18.2 TUR_Barcin_N
11.4 Yamnaya_UKR
8.0 MAR_Taforalt
6.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 WHG
0.2 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o

Target: Tunisian_Jew
Distance: 2.0728% / 0.02072840
28.8 TUR_Barcin_C
22.4 Levant_PPNC
19.2 TUR_Barcin_N
9.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.4 Yamnaya_UKR
5.0 Levant_Natufian
5.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.2 Yoruba
0.8 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o

Target: Libyan_Jew
Distance: 1.8984% / 0.01898383
25.6 Levant_PPNC
24.4 TUR_Barcin_C
19.0 TUR_Barcin_N
11.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.2 Yamnaya_UKR
4.8 MAR_Taforalt
3.0 Levant_Natufian
1.4 Yoruba
1.0 WHG

Target: Iraqi_Jew
Distance: 2.7290% / 0.02729036
44.0 TUR_Barcin_C
25.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.4 Levant_PPNC
6.8 Levant_PPNB



The North African Jews have ~1% Yoruba and that's about it.Outdated studies claiming that Askhenazi or Sephardi Jews having any Sub-Saharan African ancestry should be disregarded.


Palestinian Christians and the Lebanese Christians don't have any SSA ancestry either
Target: Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
Distance: 2.4130% / 0.02412957
33.6 TUR_Barcin_C
32.6 Levant_PPNC
17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.4 Levant_PPNB
5.8 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o

Target: Lebanese_Christian
Distance: 2.0628% / 0.02062824
34.2 TUR_Barcin_C
24.4 Levant_PPNC
16.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.2 Levant_PPNB
7.6 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
2.4 TUR_Barcin_N

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 11:54 PM
I've noticed sometimes mixing populations from different time periods can alter the results. It would be interesting to modify the K8 with all BCE samples and include Taforalt, if that is even possible.

EDIT:

He's a quick one I've done with Taforalt and the 4500BP Ethiopian sample, just to keep all the samples in BCE to see what happens.

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.5196
Results:Scotland LBA99
ETH 4500BP0.5
MAR Taforalt0.5

Replacing Ethiopia with Dinka:

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.516
Results:Scotland LBA99
Dinka0.5
MAR Taforalt0.5


Replacing Ethiopia with Yoruba (I think Yoruba is inflated in this model, as I added Levant to bring it down, which is expected as they are mixed time periods):

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.4367
Results:Scotland LBA94
Levant ISR MLBA3
Yoruba2.5
MAR Taforalt0.5

I see what you are saying about the time periods. I just brought up Ethiopia 4500 BP because it seemed to lack Semitic admixture and produce similar results in my model when replacing Dinka with it. It may take me some time to produce a good model where all the components are of the same time period. It would be especially time-consuming to create such good models for every Jewish population, Samaritans, and BA Levant samples, especially since the ancestral components of these groups are not universally agreed upon. I could try to create such a model for Ashkenazi, which might take some time, but the reason I liked the easy-to-make, crude model I used is because I was able to quickly show that all Jewish groups, and Samaritans, and their BA Levantine ancestors, and their Natufian ancestors all shared the same Dinka-like component. I'd be happy to take suggestions on how to structure this model for Ashkenazim. I can't make all the components contemporaneous, which as you said would be ideal, because the contemporary Levantines to the 4500 BP Ethiopia sample (which would be the ancestors of the Ashkenazim) had E. African included in their gene pool, as I showed in the crude model, so extra E. African might not show up. Ideally, I what I would need to do is model Natufians as Dzudzuana, basal Eurasian, and the ancestor of this Ethiopia sample, but as far as I know, no such Ethiopian sample from 15,000 ybp exists.

Anyways, I will try to create a more specific model for Ashkenazim that includes Taforalt, although I certainly won't be able to ensure that this model will consist of sources that come from the same time period, and because of the issue with the E. African being contained in the ancient Levantine gene pool, it may be impossible to create such a model that accurately reflects the East SSA percentage in the Ashkenazi gene pool, but I'll try my best. The fact is that we just don't have enough ancient E. African samples.

Whether I'll succeed in creating this model or not, it is interesting to see how all modern-day Jewish groups have similar levels of Dinka-like admixture to each other, and to their Levantine ancestors. What fascinates me the most is that this is visible in all Jewish groups, and in their shared Levantine ancestors, going back to the Natufians.

jkotl0327
07-08-2020, 12:15 AM
Ashkenazis don't have any 'traditional' SSA ancestry (Dinka,Yoruba,Mota,Pygmy or Khoisan) besides the deep unknown African component that makes up a third of the IAM.
Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 2.1906% / 0.02190630
29.4 TUR_Barcin_N
25.0 Yamnaya_UKR
15.8 TUR_Barcin_C
15.2 Levant_PPNC
5.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.4 Levant_Natufian
2.2 KAZ_Turk
1.4 WHG
0.8 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 1.9358% / 0.01935812
27.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.2 Yamnaya_UKR
17.0 TUR_Barcin_C
14.8 Levant_PPNC
8.0 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
3.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
3.4 KAZ_Turk
2.8 Levant_Natufian
1.4 MAR_Taforalt
0.8 WHG

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 2.0923% / 0.02092315
26.0 TUR_Barcin_N
22.8 Yamnaya_UKR
19.6 Levant_PPNC
18.6 TUR_Barcin_C
5.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 Levant_Natufian
1.6 KAZ_Turk
1.6 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
1.4 WHG
1.0 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 1.8522% / 0.01852163
28.4 TUR_Barcin_N
17.0 Yamnaya_UKR
13.2 Levant_PPNC
12.8 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
9.8 TUR_Barcin_C
7.8 Levant_PPNB
6.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 KAZ_Turk
1.2 MAR_Taforalt
1.0 WHG

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 1.4880% / 0.01487995
28.4 TUR_Barcin_N
16.2 Levant_PPNC
14.8 TUR_Barcin_C
13.8 Yamnaya_UKR
11.0 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
6.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.2 Levant_PPNB
1.6 MAR_Taforalt
1.2 WHG
1.0 Levant_Natufian



Sephardic Jews don't have any SSA ancestry

Target: Sephardic_Jew
Distance: 2.1354% / 0.02135368
27.4 TUR_Barcin_C
26.8 TUR_Barcin_N
15.4 Yamnaya_UKR
14.2 Levant_PPNC
8.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.6 Levant_Natufian
2.8 MAR_Taforalt



Jews from the Middle East & Africa (not including Yemenites or Beta Israel as both are basically converted locals).

Target: Syrian_Jew
Distance: 1.9343% / 0.01934342
43.2 TUR_Barcin_C
24.4 Levant_PPNC
10.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.4 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
4.0 Yamnaya_UKR
3.8 TUR_Barcin_N
3.2 Levant_Natufian
1.2 MAR_Taforalt
0.4 Yoruba

Target: Samaritan
Distance: 3.0254% / 0.03025366
33.0 TUR_Barcin_C
28.4 Levant_PPNC
18.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.4 Levant_PPNB
4.0 Levant_Natufian

Target: Karaite_Egypt
Distance: 2.7746% / 0.02774630
40.8 TUR_Barcin_C
30.4 Levant_PPNC
13.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.6 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
3.2 Levant_Natufian
1.4 Yoruba

Target: Moroccan_Jew
Distance: 2.2018% / 0.02201838
32.6 TUR_Barcin_C
20.4 Levant_PPNC
18.2 TUR_Barcin_N
11.4 Yamnaya_UKR
8.0 MAR_Taforalt
6.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 WHG
0.2 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o

Target: Tunisian_Jew
Distance: 2.0728% / 0.02072840
28.8 TUR_Barcin_C
22.4 Levant_PPNC
19.2 TUR_Barcin_N
9.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.4 Yamnaya_UKR
5.0 Levant_Natufian
5.0 MAR_Taforalt
1.2 Yoruba
0.8 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o

Target: Libyan_Jew
Distance: 1.8984% / 0.01898383
25.6 Levant_PPNC
24.4 TUR_Barcin_C
19.0 TUR_Barcin_N
11.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.2 Yamnaya_UKR
4.8 MAR_Taforalt
3.0 Levant_Natufian
1.4 Yoruba
1.0 WHG

Target: Iraqi_Jew
Distance: 2.7290% / 0.02729036
44.0 TUR_Barcin_C
25.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.4 Levant_PPNC
6.8 Levant_PPNB



The North African Jews have ~1% Yoruba and that's about it.Outdated studies claiming that Askhenazi or Sephardi Jews having any Sub-Saharan African ancestry should be disregarded.


Palestinian Christians and the Lebanese Christians don't have any SSA ancestry either
Target: Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
Distance: 2.4130% / 0.02412957
33.6 TUR_Barcin_C
32.6 Levant_PPNC
17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.4 Levant_PPNB
5.8 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o

Target: Lebanese_Christian
Distance: 2.0628% / 0.02062824
34.2 TUR_Barcin_C
24.4 Levant_PPNC
16.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.2 Levant_PPNB
7.6 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
2.4 TUR_Barcin_N


Can you clarify what is IAM? Also, you are right in that there doesn't seem to be recent SSA ancestry. Levant_Natufian & Levant_PPNC is masking the Dinka-like component by the way.

Here:
38341

As you can see, the Dinka-like has already been diluted by the Neolithic cultures of 8000-7000 BC, compared to the Natufians of millennia earlier, in my opinion due to Mesopotamia-area migration. I might try to plug in individual samples from different dates to see how this changed over time. What we really need is East African samples from the time period of the Natufians and before. It'd also be good to have pre-Natufian Levantine samples to see how the E. African amount changes to get an idea of when it was introduced to the pre-Neolithic Levantines.


EDIT: I accidentally deleted Mediterranean as a source in this screenshot which awkwardly split it between Caucasian and Atlantic. Did not change Dinka averages though, see next post.

jkotl0327
07-08-2020, 03:08 AM
I went ahead and put in some early Levantine individuals into my crude model, including Natufian, PPNB, and PPNC individuals, to clarify the differences in SSA between earlier and later Levantines.

Here was the result:
38342

EDIT: Attachment coming up as invalid, retry
Here: 38343

Interpretations:

a) 4500 BP Ethiopia is considered to predate the MENA admixture in E. Africans today according to the study that provides these ancient Levant samples, and Dinka is considered to be a prime example of an E. African Nilotic group that does not have significant Semitic admixture like this Ethiopia sample. This confirms my suspicion that these are the best ancient and modern East SSA admixture proxies to use here. At least according to this study.

b) The two Natufian samples available for G25 (I0861 & I1072) were not dated in the study that sampled them and given a general date of about 12000-10000 BC. BCE. These samples do not have significant Caucasian percentages in the model, which would indicate N. MENA ancestry, and both get ~14% East SSA. One sample does have 3% Caucasian which may indicate extremely minor N. MENA influence, emphasis on extremely minor. We need more early East SSA samples (even though Ethiopia 4500 ybp does predate Semitic admixture event) and pre-Natufian Levant samples on more information about how the East SSA got there. Both of these individuals were of E1b1b1b2 YDNA, and other Natufian individuals' YDNA's (not on G25) were E1b1, CT, and CT. It is likely that the E1b1b1b2a1a1 clade common in Jews today originates from this Natufian clade. Considering that E1b1b is widely considered to have East African origins, it is possible that this haplogroup's spread into the Middle East is related to the SSA the model found in the Natufians.

c) There are 5 PPNB individuals on G25. The PPN cultures replaced the Natufians in the Levant and went PPNA, PPNB, and PPNC in chronological order. There are no PPNA samples that I'm aware of, and PPNA was about 10,000-9000 BC in terms of dating. PPNB is 9000-6500 BC and let's start with individual I0867 who was a PPNB man found in Motza, near Jerusalem. His YDNA haplogroup was H2, the only type of H found outside S. Asia. It exists in parts of MENA and Europe (not usually the Levant), and it was found around MENA and Europe during Neolithic times. This represents a deviation from the Natufians' YDNA E or CT (those were the only haplogroups found) and could indicate admixture with another group. I0867 was 5.2% SSA, with the rest being "Mediterranean". Next, three other individuals on G25 that are PPNB were found in Ain Ghazal, in Northern Jordan. I1704 dated to 7500-7300 BC. The model showed her as 5.8% SSA, the rest being Mediterranean. I1707 dated to 7700-7500 BC. The model showed him as 6.6% SSA, with >4% Caucasian ancestry as well, which could indicate the possibility that N. MENA individuals did begin migration to the Levant even as early as this time period (although this was probably still very small migration, since no other PPNB individual had any Caucasian). He was YDNA T, which may represent descent from the Natufian CT, though this isn't definite. Individual I1710 dated to 7900-7700 BC, and had haplogroup E1b1b1, likely indicating a Natufian-like paternal heritage. This individual had lower than expected SSA in the model, only 2.2%, the rest being Mediterranean. This may be because he lived shortly after the admixture event which diluted the SSA in the PPNB people, and had a lot of ancestry from the source that did not have East SSA and resulted in the reduced SSA in PPNB people compared to Natufians. Some individuals not on G25 from PPNB Ain Ghazal had Natufian-like YDNA, I1414 having E, I1415 having E1b1b1, I1416 and I1727 having CT. Another PPNB individual not on G25 was from Kfar haHoresh, dating to about 7700-7600 BC. The sample was estimated to be 75% Natufian and 25% Anatolian. The next PPNB individual, who is on G25 was found in Baja, south Jordan, was estimated to be 85-90% Natufian, the rest Anatolian. The high degree of Natufian, as well as the fact that Baja is in southern Jordan, is what probably made the sample an outlier, having significantly more SSA than other PPNB samples. The sample got 8.2% SSA, the rest being Mediterranean, far above the PPNB average of 6% (outliers excluded in this average). I couldn't find YDNA. Overall, PPNB individuals seem to descend from Natufians with Anatolian Mediterranean input (not Mesopotamian-like), which diluted their SSA. They have an average of ~6% SSA, although some outliers tend to have more, especially in the South Levant, and some outliers tend to have less (may have had very recent Anatolian admixture considering age). The paternal heritage of the PPNB people seems to be largely Natufian (with the exception of the Motza sample).

d) Only one PPNC individual is on G25. I1699 dates to 6800-6700 BC, and was also found in Ain Ghazal. He has 6.4% SSA, the rest Mediterranean. I1700, a PPNC Ain Ghazal man not on G25 is of haplogroup CT, also likely of Natufian paternal descent.

e) Overall: The PPN people seem to have averaged about 6% SSA, much more than BA Levantines. Their Natufian ancestors (most paternal ancestry seems to be Natufian) averaged 14% East SSA, and it is unclear exactly how the Natufians got this component. The dilution of the SSA component in the PPN people seems to have been due to admixture with a non-Mesopotamian, Northern MENA source, likely Anatolian Neolithic, and this source probably lacked the SSA component, which is why it diminished in the PPN people. The exact amounts of SSA probably varied across the Neolithic Levant based on location, which is why we see outlier samples, but overall this is my theory.

BalkanKiwi
07-09-2020, 10:35 AM
I went ahead and put in some early Levantine individuals into my crude model, including Natufian, PPNB, and PPNC individuals, to clarify the differences in SSA between earlier and later Levantines.

Here was the result:
38342

EDIT: Attachment coming up as invalid, retry
Here: 38343

Interpretations:

a) 4500 BP Ethiopia is considered to predate the MENA admixture in E. Africans today according to the study that provides these ancient Levant samples, and Dinka is considered to be a prime example of an E. African Nilotic group that does not have significant Semitic admixture like this Ethiopia sample. This confirms my suspicion that these are the best ancient and modern East SSA admixture proxies to use here. At least according to this study.

b) The two Natufian samples available for G25 (I0861 & I1072) were not dated in the study that sampled them and given a general date of about 12000-10000 BC. BCE. These samples do not have significant Caucasian percentages in the model, which would indicate N. MENA ancestry, and both get ~14% East SSA. One sample does have 3% Caucasian which may indicate extremely minor N. MENA influence, emphasis on extremely minor. We need more early East SSA samples (even though Ethiopia 4500 ybp does predate Semitic admixture event) and pre-Natufian Levant samples on more information about how the East SSA got there. Both of these individuals were of E1b1b1b2 YDNA, and other Natufian individuals' YDNA's (not on G25) were E1b1, CT, and CT. It is likely that the E1b1b1b2a1a1 clade common in Jews today originates from this Natufian clade. Considering that E1b1b is widely considered to have East African origins, it is possible that this haplogroup's spread into the Middle East is related to the SSA the model found in the Natufians.

c) There are 5 PPNB individuals on G25. The PPN cultures replaced the Natufians in the Levant and went PPNA, PPNB, and PPNC in chronological order. There are no PPNA samples that I'm aware of, and PPNA was about 10,000-9000 BC in terms of dating. PPNB is 9000-6500 BC and let's start with individual I0867 who was a PPNB man found in Motza, near Jerusalem. His YDNA haplogroup was H2, the only type of H found outside S. Asia. It exists in parts of MENA and Europe (not usually the Levant), and it was found around MENA and Europe during Neolithic times. This represents a deviation from the Natufians' YDNA E or CT (those were the only haplogroups found) and could indicate admixture with another group. I0867 was 5.2% SSA, with the rest being "Mediterranean". Next, three other individuals on G25 that are PPNB were found in Ain Ghazal, in Northern Jordan. I1704 dated to 7500-7300 BC. The model showed her as 5.8% SSA, the rest being Mediterranean. I1707 dated to 7700-7500 BC. The model showed him as 6.6% SSA, with >4% Caucasian ancestry as well, which could indicate the possibility that N. MENA individuals did begin migration to the Levant even as early as this time period (although this was probably still very small migration, since no other PPNB individual had any Caucasian). He was YDNA T, which may represent descent from the Natufian CT, though this isn't definite. Individual I1710 dated to 7900-7700 BC, and had haplogroup E1b1b1, likely indicating a Natufian-like paternal heritage. This individual had lower than expected SSA in the model, only 2.2%, the rest being Mediterranean. This may be because he lived shortly after the admixture event which diluted the SSA in the PPNB people, and had a lot of ancestry from the source that did not have East SSA and resulted in the reduced SSA in PPNB people compared to Natufians. Some individuals not on G25 from PPNB Ain Ghazal had Natufian-like YDNA, I1414 having E, I1415 having E1b1b1, I1416 and I1727 having CT. Another PPNB individual not on G25 was from Kfar haHoresh, dating to about 7700-7600 BC. The sample was estimated to be 75% Natufian and 25% Anatolian. The next PPNB individual, who is on G25 was found in Baja, south Jordan, was estimated to be 85-90% Natufian, the rest Anatolian. The high degree of Natufian, as well as the fact that Baja is in southern Jordan, is what probably made the sample an outlier, having significantly more SSA than other PPNB samples. The sample got 8.2% SSA, the rest being Mediterranean, far above the PPNB average of 6% (outliers excluded in this average). I couldn't find YDNA. Overall, PPNB individuals seem to descend from Natufians with Anatolian Mediterranean input (not Mesopotamian-like), which diluted their SSA. They have an average of ~6% SSA, although some outliers tend to have more, especially in the South Levant, and some outliers tend to have less (may have had very recent Anatolian admixture considering age). The paternal heritage of the PPNB people seems to be largely Natufian (with the exception of the Motza sample).

d) Only one PPNC individual is on G25. I1699 dates to 6800-6700 BC, and was also found in Ain Ghazal. He has 6.4% SSA, the rest Mediterranean. I1700, a PPNC Ain Ghazal man not on G25 is of haplogroup CT, also likely of Natufian paternal descent.

e) Overall: The PPN people seem to have averaged about 6% SSA, much more than BA Levantines. Their Natufian ancestors (most paternal ancestry seems to be Natufian) averaged 14% East SSA, and it is unclear exactly how the Natufians got this component. The dilution of the SSA component in the PPN people seems to have been due to admixture with a non-Mesopotamian, Northern MENA source, likely Anatolian Neolithic, and this source probably lacked the SSA component, which is why it diminished in the PPN people. The exact amounts of SSA probably varied across the Neolithic Levant based on location, which is why we see outlier samples, but overall this is my theory.

Is it expected for some Yoruba to be scored by any of these populations in this model? There's certainly a reasonable amount of Dinka scored by each sample. I haven't gone back to previous pages, and you might already have so I apologize in advance, but out of interest have you tried modelling just yourself with the Dinka and 4500BP sample to see how much you score of each?

jkotl0327
07-09-2020, 03:14 PM
Is it expected for some Yoruba to be scored by any of these populations in this model? There's certainly a reasonable amount of Dinka scored by each sample. I haven't gone back to previous pages, and you might already have so I apologize in advance, but out of interest have you tried modelling just yourself with the Dinka and 4500BP sample to see how much you score of each?

All ancient samples scored 0% Yoruba. Unless one subscribes to a weird combination of theories where they believe in W. African -> Taforalt gene flow occured and the subsequent Taforalt -> Natufian gene flow occurred, Yoruba is not expected for any of the ancient samples. The Dinka does produce slightly more consistent results than ETH 4500BP, giving most populations a reasonable result (I score 3.2% Dinka, significantly above the Ashkenazi average, but still reasonable). ETH 4500BP does not cause a significant shift in African ancestry for most populations which I think shows its similarity to Dinka in lacking Semitic admixture, but some weird results do happen and I will explain why I think so.

ETH 4500 BP causes a slight increase in SSA for most Ashkenazi groups (0.2% for all Ashkenazi populations which is an interesting coincidence) but splits my SSA into 2.6% Dinka and 0.8% Yoruba. Syrian Jews get 0.4% Yoruba, Mountain Jews (Chechnya) get 1% Yoruba, and Egyptian Karaites get 1% Yoruba. Originally, it was theorized that Western Jews would have some W. African due to Berber admixture but this should not have shown itself just in Syrian Jews and not Ashkenazim, Italian, or Romaniote Jews. Could the Yoruba reflect admixture with N. Africa Jews? Theoretically possible, but I would not support this theory due to the other weird cases I am about to outline. It makes absolutely no sense for Mountain Jews, who got 1.4% Dinka (I presumed this was lower than most Jewish groups due to more admixture with locals than other Jewish groups) to come out with 1.6% ETH 4500BP + 1% Yoruba. They could not have picked up such significant W. African admixture. One could suggest that this is evidence that the Dinka model was not effective in demonstrating the full scope of SSA ancestry in Jews, but as Ancient Levantines lacked this Yoruba, and Mountain Jews had no way of picking up this admixture more recently, this theory would be moot. In the case of the Egyptian Karaites, their 4.8% Dinka split into 4% Dinka and 1% Yoruba. One could argue admixture with Egyptian Arabs (who had some SSA) and with slaves in the Arabian trade (these probably explain the elevated near-5% Dinka) but that the Arabian slave trade mostly involved E. Africans and the Egyptian SSA also mostly came from E. Africa. Other than admixture with N. African Jews, nothing could explain this Yoruba. But N. African Jews are themselves only a few percent W. African, so this theory is impossible because Egyptian Karaites would have to owe about a third of their ancestry to N. African Jews (which they clearly do not) for this theory to hold water.

Ultimately, based on my reasoning above, I do not believe the Yoruba that pops up in myself, Karaites, Mountain Jews, Syrian Jews, but no other Jewish population to be genuine. Some theories I have for why this occurred are:
a) The ETH 4500 BP sample is low-quality
b) The ETH 4500 BP people were mixed with some Archaic African group unknown today, and that weird ancestry drives populations away from them.

Probably some combination of both of these caused the weird results, just showing some of the drawbacks of using ancient samples. I cannot think of any other reasons why such unlikely Jewish populations would get Yoruba, or why I would get it but no other Ashkenazi group would. I don't believe this is due to Dinka Semitic admixture because Dinka are not known to have Semitic admixture and this effect would show up in all the Jewish groups if that were the case. To me, what this shows is that although Dinka and this sample are the best modern and ancient source, respectively, to use as a proxy for the E. Africans the Natufians mixed with, they were probably closer to Dinka than the ETH 4500 BP sample considering these weird results (even though most Jewish groups were fine).

For reference:
38374
38375

drobbah
07-09-2020, 05:10 PM
Can you clarify what is IAM? Also, you are right in that there doesn't seem to be recent SSA ancestry. Levant_Natufian & Levant_PPNC is masking the Dinka-like component by the way.

Here:
38341

As you can see, the Dinka-like has already been diluted by the Neolithic cultures of 8000-7000 BC, compared to the Natufians of millennia earlier, in my opinion due to Mesopotamia-area migration. I might try to plug in individual samples from different dates to see how this changed over time. What we really need is East African samples from the time period of the Natufians and before. It'd also be good to have pre-Natufian Levantine samples to see how the E. African amount changes to get an idea of when it was introduced to the pre-Neolithic Levantines.


EDIT: I accidentally deleted Mediterranean as a source in this screenshot which awkwardly split it between Caucasian and Atlantic. Did not change Dinka averages though, see next post.
That's a terrible fit and doesn't prove that the Natufians have any Dinka ancestry.Here's a similiar terrible fit that' slightly better with absolutely zero Dinka:

Target: Levant_Natufian
Distance: 22.8140% / 0.22814023
51.6 MAR_Taforalt
25.4 GEO_CHG
13.4 WHG
9.6 IRN_HotuIIIb_Meso

"Craniometric analyses have suggested that the Natufians may have migrated from north or sub-Saharan Africa, a result that finds some support from Y chromosome analysis which shows that the Natufians and successor Levantine Neolithic populations carried haplogroup E, of likely ultimate African origin, which has not been detected in other ancient males from West Eurasia (Supplementary Information, section 6). However, no affinity of Natufians to sub-Saharan Africans is evident in our genome-wide analysis, as present-day sub-Saharan Africans do not share more alleles with Natufians than with other ancient Eurasians (Extended Data Table 1)."

Here is a quote from the study (Lazaridis et al. 2018):
"Our co-modeling of Epipaleolithic Natufians and Ibero-Maurusians from Taforalt confirms that the Taforalt population was mixed, but instead of specifying gene flow from the ancestors of Natufians into the ancestors of Taforalt as originally reported, we infer gene flow in the reverse direction (into Natufians). The Neolithic population from Morocco, closely related to Taforalt is also consistent with being descended from the source of this gene flow, and appears to have no admixture from the Levantine Neolithic (Supplementary Information section 3). If our model is correct, Epipaleolithic Natufians trace part of their ancestry to North Africa, consistent with morphological and archaeological studies that indicate a spread of morphological features and artifacts from North Africa into the Near East. Such a scenario would also explain the presence of Y-chromosome haplogroup E in the Natufians and Levantine farmers, a common link between the Levant and Africa." "An advantage of our model is that it allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources."
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/09/20/423079.full.pdf


Dinkas themselves carry IAM ancestry just like the Yoruba and therefore have Eurasian ancestry:
Target: Dinka
Distance: 11.8062% / 0.11806197
70.4 ETH_4500BP
29.6 ZAF_400BP

Target: ETH_4500BP
Distance: 11.9927% / 0.11992735
36.6 MWI_Fingira_6100BP
26.4 ZAF_400BP
15.4 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP
11.6 MAR_Taforalt
7.2 KEN_Kakapel_3900BP
2.2 LAO_Hoabinhian
0.6 BRA_Laranjeiras_I_4300BP






All the conclusions you made based on the admixture runs you ran are wrong!

jkotl0327
07-09-2020, 06:05 PM
That's a terrible fit and doesn't prove that the Natufians have any Dinka ancestry.Here's a similiar terrible fit that' slightly better with absolutely zero Dinka:

Target: Levant_Natufian
Distance: 22.8140% / 0.22814023
51.6 MAR_Taforalt
25.4 GEO_CHG
13.4 WHG
9.6 IRN_HotuIIIb_Meso

"Craniometric analyses have suggested that the Natufians may have migrated from north or sub-Saharan Africa, a result that finds some support from Y chromosome analysis which shows that the Natufians and successor Levantine Neolithic populations carried haplogroup E, of likely ultimate African origin, which has not been detected in other ancient males from West Eurasia (Supplementary Information, section 6). However, no affinity of Natufians to sub-Saharan Africans is evident in our genome-wide analysis, as present-day sub-Saharan Africans do not share more alleles with Natufians than with other ancient Eurasians (Extended Data Table 1)."

Here is a quote from the study (Lazaridis et al. 2018):
"Our co-modeling of Epipaleolithic Natufians and Ibero-Maurusians from Taforalt confirms that the Taforalt population was mixed, but instead of specifying gene flow from the ancestors of Natufians into the ancestors of Taforalt as originally reported, we infer gene flow in the reverse direction (into Natufians). The Neolithic population from Morocco, closely related to Taforalt is also consistent with being descended from the source of this gene flow, and appears to have no admixture from the Levantine Neolithic (Supplementary Information section 3). If our model is correct, Epipaleolithic Natufians trace part of their ancestry to North Africa, consistent with morphological and archaeological studies that indicate a spread of morphological features and artifacts from North Africa into the Near East. Such a scenario would also explain the presence of Y-chromosome haplogroup E in the Natufians and Levantine farmers, a common link between the Levant and Africa." "An advantage of our model is that it allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources."
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/09/20/423079.full.pdf


Dinkas themselves carry IAM ancestry just like the Yoruba and therefore have Eurasian ancestry:
Target: Dinka
Distance: 11.8062% / 0.11806197
70.4 ETH_4500BP
29.6 ZAF_400BP

Target: ETH_4500BP
Distance: 12.0529% / 0.12052942
38.4 MWI_Fingira_6100BP
25.0 ZAF_400BP
16.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP
11.8 MAR_Taforalt
5.0 LAO_Hoabinhian
2.4 Levant_Natufian
1.2 BRA_Laranjeiras_I_4300BP




All the conclusions you made based on the admixture runs you ran are wrong!

As I mentioned in the edit there the fit is so bad because I accidentally deleted the Mediterranean component on that run, which makes up >85% for the Natufians. Also, you're not going to get such a great fit for any ancient sample. In other threads (maybe even this one I'm not sure) I've mentioned the drawbacks of the Lazaridis study. Rather than attributing the connections between the Taforalt and Natufians to its most likely cause, a common ancestor, they tried to use modeling on two near-contemporaneous populations with Taforalt as a source for Natufians. This is a much less likely scenario, even if it is theoretically possible to model. For their subsaharan African population they used Mbuti pygmys in extended data table 1 if I'm not mistaken who of course would not have more in common with Natufians because they are Pygmys and the Natufians almost certainly did not descend from them. Their theory explains why haplogroup E would exist in W Africa, N Africa, and Middle East, but if they think that W Africans and Natufians descended from NW Africans, they are practically proposing a new NW African origin theory for haplogroup E,

Dinka and Ethiopia 4500 BP may not perfectly represent the East SSA ancestors I'm talking about (in fact a more accurate model would probably include a more YDNA E rich population like Sandawe), but it is the best we have. Even the error-riddled Llorente study which opened up discussion on Mota has: "As expected, we failed to find any West Eurasian component in Mota (table S5), thus providing support for previous dating of that event". Why then does Mota have a form of haplogroup E!? If unadmixed with these MENA groups as suggested, then E could not have originated in North Africa. E must have originated in E Africa and spread from there, to the "deep" ancestry, the common ancestor people of the Natufians & Taforalt whose DNA has not been detected in other ancient Eurasian populations, which represents the East SSA like ancestry of Levantines even today.

Van de Loosdrecht's study is much more realistic in its modeling, the error of studies who model Yorubans and Mbuti as part-Eurasian have been pointed out time and time again and no doubt Lazaridis' study (I think it is not peer-reviewed just pre-print if I am not mistaken) will have to make the same corrections that the Llorente study did. I again will say that I'm not sure what IAM is. I will not lie and tell you that I know much about the ZAF_400_BP sample, can you identify where on the ancient DNA map it is or what study it is from so I can do my own research? For that reason I won't comment on your dinka model other than to say for a modern population it is pretty crude but so is my model I guess.

The Yoruba are no more than 2% W. Eurasian and I doubt the Dinka are much more but I need more info on that ZAF sample.

As for the Ethiopia 4500 BP model you made I will reiterate a point that I made in my critique of the Lazaridis study: sometimes admixture runs indicate common ancestry. Of course Natufians cannot descend from a the Mota man who lived thousands of years after them, but they share common ancestry. That is why you can model Natufians as part-Taforalt, but we need to consider where that common ancestry, referred to as the "deep" component actually comes from. Mota has no MENA admixture, Taforalt have been found in the past to be one-third SSA (unclear how much is west SSA and how much is east SSA), and for Natufians the investigation is ongoing (all we've found is that they're 0% Mbuti Pygmy), judging by that and the spread of haplogroup E, we come to the conclusion that many other scholars have come to, the deep ancestry originated in E. Africa and spread like haplogroup E, to the Taforalt/W. Africans, and the Middle Eastern Natufians -> PPN Middle Easterners -> Canaanites -> Hebrews -> Jews & Samaritans today.

jkotl0327
07-09-2020, 06:23 PM
Note: I ran my model with Ancient Malawi populations to see if some of the East SSA might come from a San-like source (these samples in the study were shown to be 50% San-like). The East SSA dropped significantly showing that this was wishful thinking on my part, so the East SSA is purely old-stock, indigenous to East Africa, like Mota.

Original estimates of this East SSA "deep" ancestry still stand:

Natufians: 10-15 %
Levant_PPN: 6%
BA/IA Canaanites (and probably Hebrews as well): 3-4%
Samaritans: 4% (picked up an average of 0.5% noticeable extra East SSA probably from limited and small Arabian admix over the last millennium)
Modern-day Jews: 2.5-3% (a little less due to admixture with peoples who had no East SSA)

drobbah
07-09-2020, 07:22 PM
As I mentioned in the edit there the fit is so bad because I accidentally deleted the Mediterranean component on that run, which makes up >85% for the Natufians. The calculator you run is terrible lol.Doesn't matter what artificial component you use, Natufians don't have Dinka ancestry as I showed earlier with nmonte and quotes from recent studies.




Dinka and Ethiopia 4500 BP may not perfectly represent the East SSA ancestors I'm talking about (in fact a more accurate model would probably include a more YDNA E rich population like Sandawe),

Populations like Dinka don't come from East Africa and Mota has nothing to do with Natufians besides both carrying minor Taforalt ancestry.


Why then does Mota have a form of haplogroup E!? If unadmixed with these MENA groups as suggested, then E could not have originated in North Africa. E must have originated in E Africa and spread from there, to the "deep" ancestry, the common ancestor people of the Natufians & Taforalt whose DNA has not been detected in other ancient Eurasian populations, which represents the East SSA like ancestry of Levantines even today.

Haplogroup E1b1 originated in East Africa, but E-M215 migrated to North Africa and intermingled with Eurasian females (for 12k years) which is why Egypt and parts of Sudan were probably heavily Natufian and the original component was practically bred out.The Dinka-like people (haplogroup A) arrived from the Green Sahara and started migrating east towards the nile valley once the Sahara started becoming desert.Dinka-like ancestry has no correlation with E-M35 at that point imo, these two populations (Natufians & Dinka) started mixing in Sudan and created the proto-cushitics who were probably 70% Natufian & 30% Dinka.


Van de Loosdrecht's study is much more realistic in its modeling, the error of studies who model Yorubans and Mbuti as part-Eurasian have been pointed out time and time again and no doubt Lazaridis' study (I think it is not peer-reviewed just pre-print if I am not mistaken) will have to make the same corrections that the Llorente study did. I again will say that I'm not sure what IAM is. I will not lie and tell you that I know much about the ZAF_400_BP sample, can you identify where on the ancient DNA map it is or what study it is from so I can do my own research? For that reason I won't comment on your dinka model other than to say for a modern population it is pretty crude but so is my model I guess.

Yoruba,Dinka and the vast majority of Africans has received Eurasian ancestry.




As for the Ethiopia 4500 BP model you made I will reiterate a point that I made in my critique of the Lazaridis study: sometimes admixture runs indicate common ancestry. Of course Natufians cannot descend from a the Mota man who lived thousands of years after them, but they share common ancestry. That is why you can model Natufians as part-Taforalt, but we need to consider where that common ancestry, referred to as the "deep" component actually comes from. Mota has no MENA admixture, Taforalt have been found in the past to be one-third SSA (unclear how much is west SSA and how much is east SSA), and for Natufians the investigation is ongoing (all we've found is that they're 0% Mbuti Pygmy), judging by that and the spread of haplogroup E, we come to the conclusion that many other scholars have come to, the deep ancestry originated in E. Africa and spread like haplogroup E, to the Taforalt/W. Africans, and the Middle Eastern Natufians -> PPN Middle Easterners -> Canaanites -> Hebrews -> Jews & Samaritans today.
Jews besides the North African ones don't have any African ancestry except whatever is embedded in Natufian due to minor IAM ancestry.Jews don't have anything to do with the Saharan Dinka-like ancestry or the Horner Ethio HG.

jkotl0327
07-09-2020, 07:49 PM
The calculator you run is terrible lol.Doesn't matter what artificial component you use, Natufians don't have Dinka ancestry as I showed earlier with nmonte and quotes from recent studies.



Populations like Dinka don't come from East Africa and Mota has nothing to do with Natufians besides both carrying minor Taforalt ancestry.


Haplogroup E1b1 originated in East Africa, but E-M215 migrated to North Africa and intermingled with Eurasian females (for 12k years) which is why Egypt and parts of Sudan were probably heavily Natufian and the original component was practically bred out.The Dinka-like people (haplogroup A) arrived from the Green Sahara and started migrating east towards the nile valley once the Sahara started becoming desert.Dinka-like ancestry has no correlation with E-M35 at that point imo, these two populations (Natufians & Dinka) started mixing in Sudan and created the proto-cushitics who were probably 70% Natufian & 30% Dinka.


Yoruba,Dinka and the vast majority of Africans has received Eurasian ancestry.



Jews besides the North African ones don't have any African ancestry except whatever is embedded in Natufian due to minor IAM ancestry.Jews don't have anything to do with the Saharan Dinka-like ancestry or the Horner Ethio HG.

The calculator I run produces distances of about 4% for modern populations which is not bad considering how rough components like "Mediterranean" and "Caucasian" are. Of course for the ancient samples you'll get a higher distance because we are using components derived from people who lived thousands of years after the Natufians, PPNs, etc. The Taforalt was masking the Dinka-like ancestry because they had it as well. Your nmonte does not prove anything and all that study proves is Natufians have no pygmy-related ancestry. You yourself showed that Dinka are 70% Mota-like.

I will reiterate again, I do not know what ZAF_400_BP stands for or what IAM stands for so I cannot respond to that.

Haplogroup E originated in East Africa, so if you agree with that, then E. Africans had to carry it to NW/W Africa and MENA, which means those people left some genetic imprint on the MENA people they gave that haplogroup to, the Natufians. We know that this haplogroup spread from the "deep" ancestral component that Taforalt and Natufians had in common and based on E's origin and the genetic evidence these "deep" ancestral people were probably from E. Africa. You said E-M215 migrated to N Africa. Who carried it there? Who carried it to the Middle East?

Yorubans (not 100% sure about Dinka) have received very little (some but very little) Eurasian ancestry and when Llorente proposed 6-7% Eurasian in Yorubans, David Reich found serious errors in the software used which forced them to issue a correction saying that Yoruba and Mbuti recieved only a nearly undetectable amount of Eurasian. Because Lazaridis is a pre-print, the study hasn't yet recieved criticism (but it certainly will) for its revival of the unlikely theory that Taforalts carried relatively large amounts of Eurasian to Yoruba and his silly unspoken theory (he's practically saying it) that haplogroup E originated in NW Africa with Taforalts. It originated with the deep ancestral component, as that is by far the theory with the most overwhelming evidence.

The Natufians had deep-ancestry, it exists to a smaller degree in Levantines today (including Jews) and this deep component almost certainly by overwhelming evidence did not originate with the Taforalt, but with a common Natufian-Taforalt ancestor in E. Africa.

drobbah
07-09-2020, 07:57 PM
Taforalt and Natufians have nothing to do with East Africa and there's absolutely nothing to back your opinion.I think it's best if we agree to disagree

jkotl0327
07-09-2020, 08:14 PM
Taforalt and Natufians have nothing to do with East Africa and there's absolutely nothing to back your opinion.I think it's best if we agree to disagree

I agree to disagree, we are kind of just making the same arguments and going in circles. I think the purpose of the thread in general was achieved in regards to a debate on "do Jews have SSA and if so is it East or West?".

artemv
07-13-2020, 11:43 AM
whatever is embedded in Natufian due to minor IAM ancestry
When we compare Gravettians or Sunghir\Kostenki people to mesolithic Europeans we can see that those groups have very little in common. No doubt, that migrations played their role, but role of genetic drift is also very important as we talk about tens of thousands of years and relatively small HG populations.

Some African 20 thousand years old population that brought their E1b Y-chromosomes to Natufians could be quite different from modern or relatively recent Africans, so we tend to underestimate African ancestry in Natufians.

We can return to this discussion after we get relevant aDNA. Because at the moment aDNA of 20 000 years or older is only aviable for Europe and North Asia, but not for Levant, North Africa or SSA.

gihanga.rwanda
07-14-2020, 01:50 AM
The Natufians don’t have ancestry from contemporary SSA groups but why would they? Natufians lived more than 10,000 years ago and most contemporary SSAs derive from complex admixture events that occurred since then. But they do have African ancestry, which was likely mediated by an admixed population related to Taforalt. According to the recent Shum Laka paper, Taforalt owes about half of its ancestry to an ancestral population (“Ancient North Africans”) that sits on the same branch as the bulk of the ancestry in Dinka, Mota, and West Africans, who all exhibit varying degrees of more “basal” African ancestry, which distinguishes them. This could likely explain the Dinka-like affinities in Levantines and co. that can be “masked” by Natufian or Taforalt. This isn’t controversial.

On a side note, I am not convinced that either Dinka or Mota have Taforalt-like ancestry, and I am cautiously skeptical about the scenario with Yoruba. We have to be careful about making these sort of assertions in the absence of more aDNA from Northeast Africa and SW Asia.

jkotl0327
07-14-2020, 02:41 AM
The Natufians don’t have ancestry from contemporary SSA groups but why would they? Natufians lived more than 10,000 years ago and most contemporary SSAs derive from complex admixture events that occurred since then. But they do have African ancestry, which was likely mediated by an admixed population related to Taforalt. According to the recent Shum Laka paper, Taforalt owes about half of its ancestry to an ancestral population (“Ancient North Africans”) that sits on the same branch as the bulk of the ancestry in Dinka, Mota, and West Africans, who all exhibit varying degrees of more “basal” archaic ancestry. This could likely explain the Dinka-like affinities in Levantines and co. that can be “masked” by Natufian or Taforalt. This isn’t controversial.

On a side note, I am not convinced that either Dinka or Mota have Taforalt-like ancestry, and I am cautiously skeptical about the scenario with Yoruba. We have to be careful about making these sort of assertions in the absence of more aDNA from Northeast Africa and SW Asia.

I agree that no definitive determinations can be made without the right aDNA but what is this recent Shum Laka paper? Natufians and Taforalt have a common ancestral population referred to as the "deep" ancestral component as outlined in the theory presented by Van de Loosdrecht et al, which is the most likely theory considering the spread of YDNA E from E Africa -> Middle East as well as E Africa -> NW Africa -> W Africa. This would mean small traces of this E African component in modern-day Levantines and Jews, which is what the discussion was about.

gihanga.rwanda
07-14-2020, 02:47 PM
I agree that no definitive determinations can be made without the right aDNA but what is this recent Shum Laka paper? Natufians and Taforalt have a common ancestral population referred to as the "deep" ancestral component as outlined in the theory presented by Van de Loosdrecht et al, which is the most likely theory considering the spread of YDNA E from E Africa -> Middle East as well as E Africa -> NW Africa -> W Africa. This would mean small traces of this E African component in modern-day Levantines and Jews, which is what the discussion was about.

Here’s a link to the report by the Reich lab. Scroll down to page 14 for the graph with Taforalt or IAM. Taforalt can be modeled as 46% non-African and 54% “Ancient North African” or ANA. In this model, ANA forms a clade with Mota (which also draws 29% of its ancestry from a more basal population), East African agro-pastoralists (this ancestral population contributed 59% to Agaw), and ~70% to West Africans (West Africans like Mota are also admixed with a more basal population).

The Natufians and their successors or “descendants” in the Levantine have Taforalt-like ancestry, which in turn had ANA-like
ancestry, which in turn formed a clade with yDNA E-rich populations south of the Sahara. I think that we can attribute the presence of yDNA E in Levant and SW Asia to this gene-flow from North Africa.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2020_Lipson_Nature_ShumLaka.pdf

Justnotyou
01-30-2021, 02:30 PM
Here’s a link to the report by the Reich lab. Scroll down to page 14 for the graph with Taforalt or IAM. Taforalt can be modeled as 46% non-African and 54% “Ancient North African” or ANA. In this model, ANA forms a clade with Mota (which also draws 29% of its ancestry from a more basal population), East African agro-pastoralists (this ancestral population contributed 59% to Agaw), and ~70% to West Africans (West Africans like Mota are also admixed with a more basal population).

The Natufians and their successors or “descendants” in the Levantine have Taforalt-like ancestry, which in turn had ANA-like
ancestry, which in turn formed a clade with yDNA E-rich populations south of the Sahara. I think that we can attribute the presence of yDNA E in Levant and SW Asia to this gene-flow from North Africa.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2020_Lipson_Nature_ShumLaka.pdf

You should probably now correct the assumption on your part that Mota are west African like.