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View Full Version : [split] Armenians: Origins & Steppe Admix?



NarLFC
05-30-2020, 09:46 PM
Modern Armenians do not score so high steppe admixture as you saying.They usually score 5-8% depends. Do not confuse gedmatch with G25. On gedmatch even Pontic Greeks score steppe..

15% isn't really that high to begin with when compared to Bronze Age Armenians. I am talking about Vahaduo where Armenians(without Armenia139 and 279) average about or slightly below 15% steppe. Also, even Pontic Greeks score steppe on the newer calculators at around 5-8%. You also have to remember that academic samples for whatever reasons understate the steppe component in Armenians when compared to real individuals. At least when using Gedmatch calculators for comparison.

NarLFC
05-30-2020, 10:41 PM
Modern Armenians do not score so high steppe admixture as you saying.They usually score 5-8% depends. Do not confuse gedmatch with G25. On gedmatch even Pontic Greeks score steppe..

Here you go buddy. Even Trabzonians score some steppe around 6-7% on average give or take.

Target: Turkish_Trabzon:Trabzon21515
Distance: 2.0418% / 0.02041803
43.6 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
37.2 TUR_Barcin_N
8.8 RUS_Catacomb
6.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
3.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Turkish_Trabzon:Trabzon21177
Distance: 1.9252% / 0.01925176
47.2 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
33.2 TUR_Barcin_N
10.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.2 RUS_Catacomb
3.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Turkish_Trabzon:Trabzon21174
Distance: 2.2112% / 0.02211167
40.8 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
33.6 TUR_Barcin_N
10.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.8 RUS_Catacomb
5.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Turkish_Trabzon:Trabzon21173
Distance: 2.1518% / 0.02151784
41.8 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
32.6 TUR_Barcin_N
13.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.2 Levant_Natufian
5.6 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 2.7712% / 0.02771209
31.0 TUR_Barcin_N
29.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
17.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.4 RUS_Catacomb
9.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 1.6017% / 0.01601747
32.6 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
32.0 TUR_Barcin_N
16.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 RUS_Catacomb
5.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.1053% / 0.02105341
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
24.4 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
21.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
11.2 RUS_Catacomb
5.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 2.7179% / 0.02717935
31.2 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
27.4 TUR_Barcin_N
15.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.8 RUS_Catacomb
11.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Greek_Trabzon:G25004
Distance: 2.5642% / 0.02564151
53.6 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
26.6 TUR_Barcin_N
8.4 Levant_Natufian
6.2 RUS_Catacomb
5.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Greek_Trabzon:G25003
Distance: 2.4321% / 0.02432100
56.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
30.6 TUR_Barcin_N
5.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.8 RUS_Catacomb
3.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Greek_Trabzon:G25002
Distance: 1.8227% / 0.01822668
41.2 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
34.2 TUR_Barcin_N
11.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 RUS_Catacomb
4.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Greek_Trabzon:G25001
Distance: 2.9306% / 0.02930591
52.6 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
31.6 TUR_Barcin_N
7.6 RUS_Catacomb
5.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.6 Levant_Natufian

Johnny ola
05-30-2020, 11:01 PM
Here you go buddy. Even Trabzonians score some steppe around 6-7% on average give or take.

Target: Turkish_Trabzon:Trabzon21515
Distance: 2.0418% / 0.02041803
43.6 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
37.2 TUR_Barcin_N
8.8 RUS_Catacomb
6.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
3.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Turkish_Trabzon:Trabzon21177
Distance: 1.9252% / 0.01925176
47.2 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
33.2 TUR_Barcin_N
10.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.2 RUS_Catacomb
3.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Turkish_Trabzon:Trabzon21174
Distance: 2.2112% / 0.02211167
40.8 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
33.6 TUR_Barcin_N
10.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.8 RUS_Catacomb
5.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Turkish_Trabzon:Trabzon21173
Distance: 2.1518% / 0.02151784
41.8 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
32.6 TUR_Barcin_N
13.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.2 Levant_Natufian
5.6 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 2.7712% / 0.02771209
31.0 TUR_Barcin_N
29.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
17.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.4 RUS_Catacomb
9.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 1.6017% / 0.01601747
32.6 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
32.0 TUR_Barcin_N
16.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 RUS_Catacomb
5.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.1053% / 0.02105341
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
24.4 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
21.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
11.2 RUS_Catacomb
5.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 2.7179% / 0.02717935
31.2 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
27.4 TUR_Barcin_N
15.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.8 RUS_Catacomb
11.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Greek_Trabzon:G25004
Distance: 2.5642% / 0.02564151
53.6 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
26.6 TUR_Barcin_N
8.4 Levant_Natufian
6.2 RUS_Catacomb
5.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: Greek_Trabzon:G25003
Distance: 2.4321% / 0.02432100
56.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
30.6 TUR_Barcin_N
5.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
4.8 RUS_Catacomb
3.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Greek_Trabzon:G25002
Distance: 1.8227% / 0.01822668
41.2 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
34.2 TUR_Barcin_N
11.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 RUS_Catacomb
4.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Greek_Trabzon:G25001
Distance: 2.9306% / 0.02930591
52.6 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
31.6 TUR_Barcin_N
7.6 RUS_Catacomb
5.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
2.6 Levant_Natufian

Your models are weird. You using an eneolithic model, a bronze age and the rest are Neolithic. Try to model them with ancient components.Use Karelia_HG to estimate the EHG among Armenians and other South Caucasians. Don't forget also that Catacomb culture contains CHG admixture.

I will try some models later..

NarLFC
05-30-2020, 11:23 PM
Your models are weird. You using an eneolithic model, a bronze age and the rest are Neolithic. Try to model them with ancient components.Use Karelia_HG to estimate the EHG among Armenians and other South Caucasians. Don't forget also that Catacomb culture contains CHG admixture.

I will try some models later..

Catacomb culture is likely the source of steppe admixture for Armenians hence why I used them as it was advised to me by the user Token. I use Darkveti because it is mostly comprised of CHG with some minor EEF in it and almost nothing else. Any CHG admixture would be captured by Darkveti, not Catacomb.

Johnny ola
05-30-2020, 11:40 PM
Catacomb culture is likely the source of steppe admixture for Armenians hence why I used them as it was advised to me by the user Token. I use Darkveti because it is mostly comprised of CHG with some minor EEF in it and almost nothing else. Any CHG admixture would be captured by Darkveti, not Catacomb.

We don't know for sure where the steppe(Proto-Armenian) source is coming from. It might come from the west instead from Catacomb.We need ancient DNA for it.

Even if we say that Catacomb is the reason for the steppe autosomal among Armenians still their steppe amount % is limited.Definitely not 15%. Modern Armenians are more Levant shifted instead Caucasus like Georgians, Laz and people from Trabzon. Also the steppe among Armenians might coming from Hurrians and not just from the Proto-Armenian wave that Brought these R1b lineages and the Armenian dialect. The samples from Armenia MBA/LBA are likely of Hurrian origins and they show a descent amount of EHG input. As for the Darkveti sample I wouldn't trust an eneolithic model to run a modern population. You have two options. Run with very ancient components(you can just use CHG REFRENCE and EHG to estimate it.). Catacomb contains CHG and AF admixture and this is why South Caucasians including Trabzon have a good fit. If you run these ethnic groups with EHG refrence you Wil realize that we have invisible EHG admixture or a 2-3%.Armenians and Assyrians a little bit more thought.

Johnny ola
05-30-2020, 11:41 PM
Catacomb culture is likely the source of steppe admixture for Armenians hence why I used them as it was advised to me by the user Token. I use Darkveti because it is mostly comprised of CHG with some minor EEF in it and almost nothing else. Any CHG admixture would be captured by Darkveti, not Catacomb.

We don't know for sure where the steppe(Proto-Armenian) source is coming from. It might come from the west instead from Catacomb.We need ancient DNA for it.

Even if we say that Catacomb is the reason for the steppe autosomal among Armenians still their steppe amount % is limited.Definitely not 15%. Modern Armenians are more Levant shifted instead Caucasus like Georgians, Laz and people from Trabzon. Also the steppe among Armenians might coming from Hurrians and not just from the Proto-Armenian wave that Brought these R1b lineages and the Armenian dialect. The samples from Armenia MBA/LBA are likely of Hurrian origins and they show a descent amount of EHG input. As for the Darkveti sample I wouldn't trust an eneolithic model to run a modern population. You have two options. Run with very ancient components(you can just use CHG REFRENCE and EHG to estimate it.). Catacomb contains CHG and AF admixture and this is why South Caucasians including Trabzon have a good fit. If you run these ethnic groups with EHG refrence you Wil realize that we have invisible EHG admixture or a 2-3%.Armenians and Assyrians a little bit more thought.

Johnny ola
05-30-2020, 11:42 PM
Catacomb culture is likely the source of steppe admixture for Armenians hence why I used them as it was advised to me by the user Token. I use Darkveti because it is mostly comprised of CHG with some minor EEF in it and almost nothing else. Any CHG admixture would be captured by Darkveti, not Catacomb.

Armenians with very ancient refrences.As you can see their EHG admixture is limited to almost none!Armenians are actually more Levant/Mesopotamian shifted coming genetically very close with their neighbors Assyrians.Keep in mind also that many Armenians besides their R1b and J2a clades they got some J1 lineages witch seems to be of Cannanite origins.


Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 3.7663% / 0.03766271
40.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.6 GEO_CHG
12.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 3.6947% / 0.03694707
42.4 TUR_Barcin_N
26.2 GEO_CHG
21.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 Levant_Natufian
1.0 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 3.2997% / 0.03299749
43.4 TUR_Barcin_N
26.8 GEO_CHG
21.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.2 Levant_Natufian
2.6 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.8962% / 0.02896239
45.6 TUR_Barcin_N
28.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
19.2 GEO_CHG
5.4 Levant_Natufian
1.2 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.9105% / 0.02910507
42.2 TUR_Barcin_N
22.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.4 GEO_CHG
12.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.9998% / 0.02999783
45.0 TUR_Barcin_N
26.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 GEO_CHG
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 3.5367% / 0.03536721
47.6 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.8 GEO_CHG
9.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 3.4916% / 0.03491589
38.0 TUR_Barcin_N
27.6 GEO_CHG
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.2 Levant_Natufian
2.6 RUS_Karelia_HG

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 12:02 AM
Armenians with very ancient refrences.As you can see their EHG admixture is limited to almost none!Armenians are actually more Levant/Mesopotamian shifted coming genetically very close with their neighbors Assyrians.Keep in mind also that many Armenians besides their R1b and J2a clades they got some J1 lineages witch seems to be of Cannanite origins.


Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 3.7663% / 0.03766271
40.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.6 GEO_CHG
12.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 3.6947% / 0.03694707
42.4 TUR_Barcin_N
26.2 GEO_CHG
21.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 Levant_Natufian
1.0 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 3.2997% / 0.03299749
43.4 TUR_Barcin_N
26.8 GEO_CHG
21.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.2 Levant_Natufian
2.6 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.8962% / 0.02896239
45.6 TUR_Barcin_N
28.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
19.2 GEO_CHG
5.4 Levant_Natufian
1.2 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.9105% / 0.02910507
42.2 TUR_Barcin_N
22.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.4 GEO_CHG
12.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.9998% / 0.02999783
45.0 TUR_Barcin_N
26.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 GEO_CHG
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 3.5367% / 0.03536721
47.6 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.8 GEO_CHG
9.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 3.4916% / 0.03491589
38.0 TUR_Barcin_N
27.6 GEO_CHG
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.2 Levant_Natufian
2.6 RUS_Karelia_HG

Those fit distances are not that great. Geo_CHG for whatever reason doesn't seem to capture the CHG admixture that is present in a lot of populations, Armenians included hence why I use Darkveti as a reference for CHG. Once Again, Karelia is not the source of Steppe for Armenians hence why your fit distances are not that great. If you use Catacomb, then you will realize that it works much better. Also, Armenians are not Levant shifted. The academic samples of Armenia279 and Armenia 139 are extreme outliers, probably not even Armenian to begin with simply gives such an impression. Since we don't have any real individuals on these websites, the best thing I did was to collect samples of real individuals for various ethnic groups to make an average.

Distance to: armenia279
10.34473779 Iranian_Jew
11.62426772 Kurdish_Jew
12.23372797 Assyrian
12.86293124 Iraqi_Jew
13.10364072 Georgian_Jew
15.05082058 Armenian_West
16.87872033 Greek_Trabzon
17.12361527 Kurd
17.39835050 Armenian_East
18.61452659 Lebanese_Christian
18.93550105 Turkish_Trabzon
19.03315003 Lebanese_Druze
19.72700687 Iranian_Lur
19.80367390 Lebanese_Muslim
20.09827356 Turkish_East
21.38706151 Iranian_Mazandarani
22.12944193 Azerbaijani
22.37010058 Turkish_Kayseri
22.89381139 Georgian_Laz
23.06397624 Cypriot
23.36348433 Syrian
23.51485275 Turkish_Anatolia
23.83092529 Turkish_Adana
23.92802959 Iranian_Persian
23.94162484 Palestinian

Distance to: armenia139
11.30822709 Iranian_Jew
11.94620023 Assyrian
12.34729930 Kurdish_Jew
12.83668181 Georgian_Jew
13.74123721 Iraqi_Jew
14.18139626 Armenian_West
15.45434567 Greek_Trabzon
16.41717393 Armenian_East
17.36092739 Kurd
17.48578280 Turkish_Trabzon
18.71924678 Lebanese_Christian
19.25647424 Turkish_East
19.36026859 Lebanese_Druze
19.77137577 Lebanese_Muslim
20.47094526 Iranian_Lur
21.60642497 Georgian_Laz
22.24969663 Azerbaijani
22.35419424 Iranian_Mazandarani
22.40582960 Cypriot
22.45141866 Turkish_Kayseri
23.34952462 Turkish_Anatolia
23.55800925 Syrian
23.64214457 Turkish_Adana
23.70744609 Turk_Meskhetian
24.24378271 Iranian_Persian



The Armenian average

Distance to: Armenian_Academic_samples_average
4.85884760 Armenian_East
5.54790050 Greek_Trabzon
5.97991639 Turkish_Trabzon
6.05750774 Turkish_East
6.57320318 Armenian_West
9.12201732 Georgian_Laz
9.15132777 Kurd
10.74517566 Turk_Meskhetian
10.89347511 Georgian_Jew
12.54614283 Assyrian
12.73261167 Azerbaijani
13.47934717 Iranian_Lur
13.96086674 Turkish_Kayseri
14.66830597 Iranian_Mazandarani
14.79309636 Turkish_Anatolia
16.93296784 Iranian_Persian
17.05339849 Turkish_Adana
18.02756223 Azeri_Dagestan
18.08354501 Kurdish_Jew
19.73482202 Iranian_Jew
20.87549520 Lebanese_Muslim
21.07696847 Georgian
22.25738978 Turkish_Aydin
23.75700739 Syrian
24.21916184 Lebanese_Christian


So where does this suggest that Armenians are "very close" to Assyrians?

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 12:03 AM
Armenians with very ancient refrences.As you can see their EHG admixture is limited to almost none!Armenians are actually more Levant/Mesopotamian shifted coming genetically very close with their neighbors Assyrians.Keep in mind also that many Armenians besides their R1b and J2a clades they got some J1 lineages witch seems to be of Cannanite origins.


Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 3.7663% / 0.03766271
40.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.6 GEO_CHG
12.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 3.6947% / 0.03694707
42.4 TUR_Barcin_N
26.2 GEO_CHG
21.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 Levant_Natufian
1.0 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 3.2997% / 0.03299749
43.4 TUR_Barcin_N
26.8 GEO_CHG
21.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.2 Levant_Natufian
2.6 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.8962% / 0.02896239
45.6 TUR_Barcin_N
28.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
19.2 GEO_CHG
5.4 Levant_Natufian
1.2 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.9105% / 0.02910507
42.2 TUR_Barcin_N
22.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.4 GEO_CHG
12.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.9998% / 0.02999783
45.0 TUR_Barcin_N
26.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 GEO_CHG
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 3.5367% / 0.03536721
47.6 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.8 GEO_CHG
9.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 3.4916% / 0.03491589
38.0 TUR_Barcin_N
27.6 GEO_CHG
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.2 Levant_Natufian
2.6 RUS_Karelia_HG

Those fit distances are not that great. Geo_CHG for whatever reason doesn't seem to capture the CHG admixture that is present in a lot of populations, Armenians included hence why I use Darkveti as a reference for CHG. Once Again, Karelia is not the source of Steppe for Armenians hence why your fit distances are not that great. If you use Catacomb, then you will realize that it works much better. Also, Armenians are not Levant shifted. The academic samples of Armenia279 and Armenia 139 are extreme outliers, probably not even Armenian to begin with simply gives such an impression. Since we don't have any real individuals on these websites, the best thing I did was to collect samples of real individuals for various ethnic groups to make an average.

Distance to: armenia279
10.34473779 Iranian_Jew
11.62426772 Kurdish_Jew
12.23372797 Assyrian
12.86293124 Iraqi_Jew
13.10364072 Georgian_Jew
15.05082058 Armenian_West
16.87872033 Greek_Trabzon
17.12361527 Kurd
17.39835050 Armenian_East
18.61452659 Lebanese_Christian
18.93550105 Turkish_Trabzon
19.03315003 Lebanese_Druze
19.72700687 Iranian_Lur
19.80367390 Lebanese_Muslim
20.09827356 Turkish_East
21.38706151 Iranian_Mazandarani
22.12944193 Azerbaijani
22.37010058 Turkish_Kayseri
22.89381139 Georgian_Laz
23.06397624 Cypriot
23.36348433 Syrian
23.51485275 Turkish_Anatolia
23.83092529 Turkish_Adana
23.92802959 Iranian_Persian
23.94162484 Palestinian

Distance to: armenia139
11.30822709 Iranian_Jew
11.94620023 Assyrian
12.34729930 Kurdish_Jew
12.83668181 Georgian_Jew
13.74123721 Iraqi_Jew
14.18139626 Armenian_West
15.45434567 Greek_Trabzon
16.41717393 Armenian_East
17.36092739 Kurd
17.48578280 Turkish_Trabzon
18.71924678 Lebanese_Christian
19.25647424 Turkish_East
19.36026859 Lebanese_Druze
19.77137577 Lebanese_Muslim
20.47094526 Iranian_Lur
21.60642497 Georgian_Laz
22.24969663 Azerbaijani
22.35419424 Iranian_Mazandarani
22.40582960 Cypriot
22.45141866 Turkish_Kayseri
23.34952462 Turkish_Anatolia
23.55800925 Syrian
23.64214457 Turkish_Adana
23.70744609 Turk_Meskhetian
24.24378271 Iranian_Persian



The Armenian average

Distance to: Armenian_Academic_samples_average
4.85884760 Armenian_East
5.54790050 Greek_Trabzon
5.97991639 Turkish_Trabzon
6.05750774 Turkish_East
6.57320318 Armenian_West
9.12201732 Georgian_Laz
9.15132777 Kurd
10.74517566 Turk_Meskhetian
10.89347511 Georgian_Jew
12.54614283 Assyrian
12.73261167 Azerbaijani
13.47934717 Iranian_Lur
13.96086674 Turkish_Kayseri
14.66830597 Iranian_Mazandarani
14.79309636 Turkish_Anatolia
16.93296784 Iranian_Persian
17.05339849 Turkish_Adana
18.02756223 Azeri_Dagestan
18.08354501 Kurdish_Jew
19.73482202 Iranian_Jew
20.87549520 Lebanese_Muslim
21.07696847 Georgian
22.25738978 Turkish_Aydin
23.75700739 Syrian
24.21916184 Lebanese_Christian


So where does this suggest that Armenians are "very close" to Assyrians?

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 12:07 AM
Armenians with very ancient refrences.As you can see their EHG admixture is limited to almost none!Armenians are actually more Levant/Mesopotamian shifted coming genetically very close with their neighbors Assyrians.Keep in mind also that many Armenians besides their R1b and J2a clades they got some J1 lineages witch seems to be of Cannanite origins.


Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 3.7663% / 0.03766271
40.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.6 GEO_CHG
12.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 3.6947% / 0.03694707
42.4 TUR_Barcin_N
26.2 GEO_CHG
21.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 Levant_Natufian
1.0 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 3.2997% / 0.03299749
43.4 TUR_Barcin_N
26.8 GEO_CHG
21.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.2 Levant_Natufian
2.6 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.8962% / 0.02896239
45.6 TUR_Barcin_N
28.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
19.2 GEO_CHG
5.4 Levant_Natufian
1.2 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.9105% / 0.02910507
42.2 TUR_Barcin_N
22.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.4 GEO_CHG
12.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.9998% / 0.02999783
45.0 TUR_Barcin_N
26.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 GEO_CHG
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 3.5367% / 0.03536721
47.6 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.8 GEO_CHG
9.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 3.4916% / 0.03491589
38.0 TUR_Barcin_N
27.6 GEO_CHG
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.2 Levant_Natufian
2.6 RUS_Karelia_HG

This one is the one that I have compiled.

Euro_k15(c("Armenian_East"),k=30)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Armenian_East" "0"
[2,] "Turkish_East" "4.0691"
[3,] "Armenian_West" "4.9049"
[4,] "Greek_Trabzon" "5.0443"
[5,] "Turkish_Trabzon" "7.1416"
[6,] "Kurd_Armenia" "8.7901"
[7,] "Kurd" "8.9631"
[8,] "Georgian_Jew" "9.1473"
[9,] "Georgian_Laz" "9.5433"
[10,] "Turk_Meskhetian" "10.7915"
[11,] "Turkish_East_Central" "10.8545"
[12,] "Azerbaijani" "11.0023"
[13,] "Assyrian" "11.2855"
[14,] "Iranian_Lur" "11.347"
[15,] "Iraq_Turkmen" "11.3617"
[16,] "Turkish_Anatolia" "11.4168"
[17,] "Iranian_Mazandarani" "13.6446"
[18,] "Turkish_Sout" "13.6658"
[19,] "Iranian_Persian_Fars" "14.4881"
[20,] "Azeri_Dagestan" "16.6764"
[21,] "Kurdish_Jew" "17.3946"
[22,] "Lebanese_Muslim" "18.6391"
[23,] "Turkish_Southwest" "19.6542"
[24,] "Iranian_Jew" "20.1178"
[25,] "Syrian" "20.4556"
[26,] "Georgian" "20.8162"
[27,] "Turkish_Northwest" "22.705"
[28,] "Lebanese_Christian" "23.2083"
[29,] "Adygei" "23.9183"
[30,] "Turkmen" "24.1397"
> Euro_k15(c("Armenian_West"),k=30)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Armenian_West" "0"
[2,] "Greek_Trabzon" "3.9694"
[3,] "Armenian_East" "4.9049"
[4,] "Georgian_Jew" "6.4651"
[5,] "Assyrian" "7.8545"
[6,] "Turkish_East" "8.3279"
[7,] "Turkish_Trabzon" "9.368"
[8,] "Kurd_Armenia" "10.092"
[9,] "Turkish_East_Central" "10.2822"
[10,] "Kurd" "10.8341"
[11,] "Iraq_Turkmen" "10.9124"
[12,] "Turkish_Anatolia" "11.6657"
[13,] "Azerbaijani" "12.2965"
[14,] "Iranian_Lur" "12.2987"
[15,] "Turkish_Sout" "12.8724"
[16,] "Georgian_Laz" "12.9572"
[17,] "Kurdish_Jew" "13.9255"
[18,] "Turk_Meskhetian" "14.5753"
[19,] "Iranian_Mazandarani" "15.3396"
[20,] "Lebanese_Muslim" "15.5429"
[21,] "Iranian_Persian_Fars" "15.9156"
[22,] "Iranian_Jew" "17.233"
[23,] "Syrian" "17.9689"
[24,] "Lebanese_Christian" "19.3566"
[25,] "Turkish_Southwest" "19.5545"
[26,] "Azeri_Dagestan" "20.0959"
[27,] "Cypriot" "20.6493"
[28,] "Lebanese_Druze" "22.5626"
[29,] "Turkish_Northwest" "22.7291"
[30,] "Palestinian" "23.1311"

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 12:25 AM
We don't know for sure where the steppe(Proto-Armenian) source is coming from. It might come from the west instead from Catacomb.We need ancient DNA for it.

Even if we say that Catacomb is the reason for the steppe autosomal among Armenians still their steppe amount % is limited.Definitely not 15%. Modern Armenians are more Levant shifted instead Caucasus like Georgians, Laz and people from Trabzon. Also the steppe among Armenians might coming from Hurrians and not just from the Proto-Armenian wave that Brought these R1b lineages and the Armenian dialect. The samples from Armenia MBA/LBA are likely of Hurrian origins and they show a descent amount of EHG input. As for the Darkveti sample I wouldn't trust an eneolithic model to run a modern population. You have two options. Run with very ancient components(you can just use CHG REFRENCE and EHG to estimate it.). Catacomb contains CHG and AF admixture and this is why South Caucasians including Trabzon have a good fit. If you run these ethnic groups with EHG refrence you Wil realize that we have invisible EHG admixture or a 2-3%.Armenians and Assyrians a little bit more thought.

Even using CHG without the Darkveti, it still scores the same, around 14% Catacomb on average. I used CHG so that Catacomb does not mask any CHG at all. Again, I was advised to use Catacomb specifically by Token because it was likely the source for Armenian steppe affinity so this isn't something I am simply making up. Also, keep in mind that my fit distances are CONSIDERABLY better than your fit distances which is the important thing here. Based off these runs, they suggest around 14% steppe admixture for these specific Armenian samples which is higher than what you are suggesting but nothing mind blowing either.

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 2.8172% / 0.02817188
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.2 GEO_CHG
14.2 RUS_Catacomb
11.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 1.8114% / 0.01811402
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 GEO_CHG
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.2 RUS_Catacomb
8.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.2328% / 0.02232843
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 GEO_CHG
12.6 RUS_Catacomb
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 2.6854% / 0.02685366
33.4 TUR_Barcin_N
21.0 GEO_CHG
17.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.6 RUS_Catacomb
14.0 Levant_Natufian

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 12:26 AM
We don't know for sure where the steppe(Proto-Armenian) source is coming from. It might come from the west instead from Catacomb.We need ancient DNA for it.

Even if we say that Catacomb is the reason for the steppe autosomal among Armenians still their steppe amount % is limited.Definitely not 15%. Modern Armenians are more Levant shifted instead Caucasus like Georgians, Laz and people from Trabzon. Also the steppe among Armenians might coming from Hurrians and not just from the Proto-Armenian wave that Brought these R1b lineages and the Armenian dialect. The samples from Armenia MBA/LBA are likely of Hurrian origins and they show a descent amount of EHG input. As for the Darkveti sample I wouldn't trust an eneolithic model to run a modern population. You have two options. Run with very ancient components(you can just use CHG REFRENCE and EHG to estimate it.). Catacomb contains CHG and AF admixture and this is why South Caucasians including Trabzon have a good fit. If you run these ethnic groups with EHG refrence you Wil realize that we have invisible EHG admixture or a 2-3%.Armenians and Assyrians a little bit more thought.

Even using CHG without the Darkveti, it still scores the same, around 14% Catacomb on average. I used CHG so that Catacomb does not mask any CHG at all. Again, I was advised to use Catacomb specifically by Token because it was likely the source for Armenian steppe affinity so this isn't something I am simply making up. Also, keep in mind that my fit distances are CONSIDERABLY better than your fit distances which is the important thing here. Based off these runs, they suggest around 14% steppe admixture for these specific Armenian samples which is higher than what you are suggesting but nothing mind blowing either.

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 2.8172% / 0.02817188
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.2 GEO_CHG
14.2 RUS_Catacomb
11.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 1.8114% / 0.01811402
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 GEO_CHG
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.2 RUS_Catacomb
8.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.2328% / 0.02232843
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 GEO_CHG
12.6 RUS_Catacomb
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 2.6854% / 0.02685366
33.4 TUR_Barcin_N
21.0 GEO_CHG
17.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.6 RUS_Catacomb
14.0 Levant_Natufian

Johnny ola
05-31-2020, 12:36 AM
Those fit distances are not that great. Geo_CHG for whatever reason doesn't seem to capture the CHG admixture that is present in a lot of populations, Armenians included hence why I use Darkveti as a reference for CHG. Once Again, Karelia is not the source of Steppe for Armenians hence why your fit distances are not that great. If you use Catacomb, then you will realize that it works much better. Also, Armenians are not Levant shifted. The academic samples of Armenia279 and Armenia 139 are extreme outliers, probably not even Armenian to begin with simply gives such an impression. Since we don't have any real individuals on these websites, the best thing I did was to collect samples of real individuals for various ethnic groups to make an average.

Distance to: armenia279
10.34473779 Iranian_Jew
11.62426772 Kurdish_Jew
12.23372797 Assyrian
12.86293124 Iraqi_Jew
13.10364072 Georgian_Jew
15.05082058 Armenian_West
16.87872033 Greek_Trabzon
17.12361527 Kurd
17.39835050 Armenian_East
18.61452659 Lebanese_Christian
18.93550105 Turkish_Trabzon
19.03315003 Lebanese_Druze
19.72700687 Iranian_Lur
19.80367390 Lebanese_Muslim
20.09827356 Turkish_East
21.38706151 Iranian_Mazandarani
22.12944193 Azerbaijani
22.37010058 Turkish_Kayseri
22.89381139 Georgian_Laz
23.06397624 Cypriot
23.36348433 Syrian
23.51485275 Turkish_Anatolia
23.83092529 Turkish_Adana
23.92802959 Iranian_Persian
23.94162484 Palestinian

Distance to: armenia139
11.30822709 Iranian_Jew
11.94620023 Assyrian
12.34729930 Kurdish_Jew
12.83668181 Georgian_Jew
13.74123721 Iraqi_Jew
14.18139626 Armenian_West
15.45434567 Greek_Trabzon
16.41717393 Armenian_East
17.36092739 Kurd
17.48578280 Turkish_Trabzon
18.71924678 Lebanese_Christian
19.25647424 Turkish_East
19.36026859 Lebanese_Druze
19.77137577 Lebanese_Muslim
20.47094526 Iranian_Lur
21.60642497 Georgian_Laz
22.24969663 Azerbaijani
22.35419424 Iranian_Mazandarani
22.40582960 Cypriot
22.45141866 Turkish_Kayseri
23.34952462 Turkish_Anatolia
23.55800925 Syrian
23.64214457 Turkish_Adana
23.70744609 Turk_Meskhetian
24.24378271 Iranian_Persian



The Armenian average

Distance to: Armenian_Academic_samples_average
4.85884760 Armenian_East
5.54790050 Greek_Trabzon
5.97991639 Turkish_Trabzon
6.05750774 Turkish_East
6.57320318 Armenian_West
9.12201732 Georgian_Laz
9.15132777 Kurd
10.74517566 Turk_Meskhetian
10.89347511 Georgian_Jew
12.54614283 Assyrian
12.73261167 Azerbaijani
13.47934717 Iranian_Lur
13.96086674 Turkish_Kayseri
14.66830597 Iranian_Mazandarani
14.79309636 Turkish_Anatolia
16.93296784 Iranian_Persian
17.05339849 Turkish_Adana
18.02756223 Azeri_Dagestan
18.08354501 Kurdish_Jew
19.73482202 Iranian_Jew
20.87549520 Lebanese_Muslim
21.07696847 Georgian
22.25738978 Turkish_Aydin
23.75700739 Syrian
24.21916184 Lebanese_Christian


So where does this suggest that Armenians are "very close" to Assyrians?

Running with ancient refrences you can't have a good fit.We all know it. My models showing clearly that the main component among Yamnaya and Catacomb cultures witch is the 'EHG'is limited to almost none to modern Armenians. You can compare these Armenian individuals with the samples from Areni and with the other as we'll MBA/LBA samples from Armenia. The EHG shift there is quite real unlike to modern samples from Armenians.Do you have any proves that the samples you call outliers are not Armenians? Armenians are more Iran N and Levant N related compared to other Caucasians especially like Georgians, Akzabians and Laz people. The reason is their geographical position and being sourounded from other Mesopotamian and Levantinte ethnic groups. They are not that far away genetically from Assyrians.They are actually closer to Assyrians than they are to Georgians for example. They are also very close with Georgian_Jews another Mesopotamian like ethnic group. The reason they coming close with such ethnicities is because of their Levantinte input. And this is not founding only to these outliers as you called them, but pretty much to all the modern Armenian samples we got.

Johnny ola
05-31-2020, 12:41 AM
Even using CHG without the Darkveti, it still scores the same, around 14% Catacomb on average. I used CHG so that Catacomb does not mask any CHG at all. Again, I was advised to use Catacomb specifically by Token because it was likely the source for Armenian steppe affinity so this isn't something I am simply making up. Also, keep in mind that my fit distances are CONSIDERABLY better than your fit distances which is the important thing here. Based off these runs, they suggest around 14% steppe admixture for these specific Armenian samples which is higher than what you are suggesting but nothing mind blowing either.

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 2.8172% / 0.02817188
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.2 GEO_CHG
14.2 RUS_Catacomb
11.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 1.8114% / 0.01811402
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 GEO_CHG
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.2 RUS_Catacomb
8.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.2328% / 0.02232843
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 GEO_CHG
12.6 RUS_Catacomb
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 2.6854% / 0.02685366
33.4 TUR_Barcin_N
21.0 GEO_CHG
17.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.6 RUS_Catacomb
14.0 Levant_Natufian



Rus Catacomb contains a good chunk of CHG admixture. Is normal to have a better fit. Using 'pure' EHG reference you will realize that South Caucasians lack this admixture. Try to use Rus_Karelia to Armenia (Areni) samples and other MBA/LBA samples from Armenia and compare them. You will see a huge difference.

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 01:08 AM
Running with ancient refrences you can't have a good fit.We all know it. My models showing clearly that the main component among Yamnaya and Catacomb cultures witch is the 'EHG'is limited to almost none to modern Armenians. You can compare these Armenian individuals with the samples from Areni and with the other as we'll MBA/LBA samples from Armenia. The EHG shift there is quite real unlike to modern samples from Armenians.Do you have any proves that the samples you call outliers are not Armenians? Armenians are more Iran N and Levant N related compared to other Caucasians especially like Georgians, Akzabians and Laz people. The reason is their geographical position and being sourounded from other Mesopotamian and Levantinte ethnic groups. They are not that far away genetically from Assyrians.They are actually closer to Assyrians than they are to Georgians for example. They are also very close with Georgian_Jews another Mesopotamian like ethnic group. The reason they coming close with such ethnicities is because of their Levantinte input. And this is not founding only to these outliers as you called them, but pretty much to all the modern Armenian samples we got.

Did you not see the averages? Armenians clearly show the highest genetic affinity to Trabzonians and Eastern Turks. Eastern Armenians are also closer to Laz and Kurds than they are to Assyrians? Why do you keep emphasizing Assyrians when they are not the closest genetic relatives to Armenians and vice versa? Iran_N is similar to CHG so I don't see how that plays a role. Levant_N admixture in Armenians is also barely higher than it is in Trabzonians. It isn't nearly enough to "shift" them to the Levant. Catacomb has a bit of EEF, NOT CHG but it's mostly comprised of Steppe. Yamnaya Samara is the definition of Steppe component in peer reviewed studies, not Karelia. So if you want to run steppe, you may as well use Yamnaya samples.

And no dude, the two kits I posted is used as academic samples for Armenians on G25/Vahaduo which is totally off the Armenian average HENCE WHY I POSTED IT. It skews the average. They are absolute outliers and differ significantly to the rest of the kits. Also, how would Armenians have Levantine input when Levantines are geographically irrelevant to the Armenian Highlands? Especially when historically it is Levantines that have received more Northern admixture components. Geography much?

I'll leave this here for you again in case you still haven't registered it yet.

Euro_k15(c("Armenian_East"),k=30)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Armenian_East" "0"
[2,] "Turkish_East" "4.0691"
[3,] "Armenian_West" "4.9049"
[4,] "Greek_Trabzon" "5.0443"
[5,] "Turkish_Trabzon" "7.1416"
[6,] "Kurd_Armenia" "8.7901"
[7,] "Kurd" "8.9631"
[8,] "Georgian_Jew" "9.1473"
[9,] "Georgian_Laz" "9.5433"
[10,] "Turk_Meskhetian" "10.7915"
[11,] "Turkish_East_Central" "10.8545"
[12,] "Azerbaijani" "11.0023"
[13,] "Assyrian" "11.2855"
[14,] "Iranian_Lur" "11.347"
[15,] "Iraq_Turkmen" "11.3617"
[16,] "Turkish_Anatolia" "11.4168"
[17,] "Iranian_Mazandarani" "13.6446"
[18,] "Turkish_Sout" "13.6658"
[19,] "Iranian_Persian_Fars" "14.4881"
[20,] "Azeri_Dagestan" "16.6764"
[21,] "Kurdish_Jew" "17.3946"
[22,] "Lebanese_Muslim" "18.6391"
[23,] "Turkish_Southwest" "19.6542"
[24,] "Iranian_Jew" "20.1178"
[25,] "Syrian" "20.4556"
[26,] "Georgian" "20.8162"
[27,] "Turkish_Northwest" "22.705"
[28,] "Lebanese_Christian" "23.2083"
[29,] "Adygei" "23.9183"
[30,] "Turkmen" "24.1397"
>

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 01:35 AM
Rus Catacomb contains a good chunk of CHG admixture. Is normal to have a better fit. Using 'pure' EHG reference you will realize that South Caucasians lack this admixture. Try to use Rus_Karelia to Armenia (Areni) samples and other MBA/LBA samples from Armenia and compare them. You will see a huge difference.

Target: RUS_Catacomb
Distance: 1.2940% / 0.01293997
95.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 Yamnaya_UKR
1.6 GEO_CHG
1.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.0 Levant_Natufian
0.0 TUR_Barcin_N
0.0 WHG


Rus_Catacomb is mostly derived from Yamnaya_Samara, which is THE steppe component in academic circles. The fit is excellent as well. I don't see much CHG or EEF here.

Johnny ola
05-31-2020, 07:53 AM
Did you not see the averages? Armenians clearly show the highest genetic affinity to Trabzonians and Eastern Turks. Eastern Armenians are also closer to Laz and Kurds than they are to Assyrians? Why do you keep emphasizing Assyrians when they are not the closest genetic relatives to Armenians and vice versa? Iran_N is similar to CHG so I don't see how that plays a role. Levant_N admixture in Armenians is also barely higher than it is in Trabzonians. It isn't nearly enough to "shift" them to the Levant. Catacomb has a bit of EEF, NOT CHG but it's mostly comprised of Steppe. Yamnaya Samara is the definition of Steppe component in peer reviewed studies, not Karelia. So if you want to run steppe, you may as well use Yamnaya samples.

And no dude, the two kits I posted is used as academic samples for Armenians on G25/Vahaduo which is totally off the Armenian average HENCE WHY I POSTED IT. It skews the average. They are absolute outliers and differ significantly to the rest of the kits. Also, how would Armenians have Levantine input when Levantines are geographically irrelevant to the Armenian Highlands? Especially when historically it is Levantines that have received more Northern admixture components. Geography much?

I'll leave this here for you again in case you still haven't registered it yet.

Euro_k15(c("Armenian_East"),k=30)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Armenian_East" "0"
[2,] "Turkish_East" "4.0691"
[3,] "Armenian_West" "4.9049"
[4,] "Greek_Trabzon" "5.0443"
[5,] "Turkish_Trabzon" "7.1416"
[6,] "Kurd_Armenia" "8.7901"
[7,] "Kurd" "8.9631"
[8,] "Georgian_Jew" "9.1473"
[9,] "Georgian_Laz" "9.5433"
[10,] "Turk_Meskhetian" "10.7915"
[11,] "Turkish_East_Central" "10.8545"
[12,] "Azerbaijani" "11.0023"
[13,] "Assyrian" "11.2855"
[14,] "Iranian_Lur" "11.347"
[15,] "Iraq_Turkmen" "11.3617"
[16,] "Turkish_Anatolia" "11.4168"
[17,] "Iranian_Mazandarani" "13.6446"
[18,] "Turkish_Sout" "13.6658"
[19,] "Iranian_Persian_Fars" "14.4881"
[20,] "Azeri_Dagestan" "16.6764"
[21,] "Kurdish_Jew" "17.3946"
[22,] "Lebanese_Muslim" "18.6391"
[23,] "Turkish_Southwest" "19.6542"
[24,] "Iranian_Jew" "20.1178"
[25,] "Syrian" "20.4556"
[26,] "Georgian" "20.8162"
[27,] "Turkish_Northwest" "22.705"
[28,] "Lebanese_Christian" "23.2083"
[29,] "Adygei" "23.9183"
[30,] "Turkmen" "24.1397"
>


Why you running averages lol.You can see here that Armenians are by far closer to assyrians and georgian jews(both mesopotamians) in genetics than they are to Georgians and Laz people.Pontic Greeks have also a mesopotamian shift(not all of us) but many of us we score high Levant on autosomal level.

Distance to: Armenian:GS000035125
0.02230273 Armenian
0.02538952 Assyrian
0.02745113 Georgian_Jew
0.03469937 Turkish_Trabzon
0.03585094 Iranian_Jew
0.03603466 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.03605310 Greek_Trabzon
0.04008933 Iraqi_Jew
0.04137463 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.04678785 Druze
0.04719826 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04758401 Lebanese_Druze
0.04863507 Georgian_Laz
0.05304504 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05321938 Kurdish
0.05383800 Karaite_Egypt
0.05560656 Ezid
0.05587241 Lebanese_Christian
0.05628193 Cypriot
0.05711825 Syrian
0.05910061 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.05931828 Syrian_Jew
0.06022292 Iranian_Lor
0.06190007 Turkish_Kayseri
0.06212155 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour

Distance to: Armenian:GS000035124
0.02286947 Armenian
0.03082285 Greek_Trabzon
0.03135828 Turkish_Trabzon
0.03435975 Assyrian
0.03611324 Georgian_Jew
0.03722311 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.04409023 Iranian_Jew
0.04507516 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04606328 Georgian_Laz
0.04610381 Iraqi_Jew
0.05051435 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.05233939 Lebanese_Druze
0.05328833 Druze
0.05499216 Kurdish
0.05638065 Azeri_Turkey
0.05648758 Syrian_Jew
0.05662155 Karaite_Egypt
0.05702922 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05756158 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05764923 Cypriot
0.05774575 Ezid
0.05999741 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.06110789 Syrian
0.06185385 Georgian_Imer
0.06219718 Lebanese_Christian

Distance to: Armenian:GS000013745
0.01955193 Armenian
0.02491883 Greek_Trabzon
0.02493367 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02639217 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.03327944 Georgian_Jew
0.03330063 Assyrian
0.03382034 Georgian_Laz
0.04017820 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04530037 Kurdish
0.04566619 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.04589562 Iranian_Jew
0.04940238 Ezid
0.04989469 Turkish_Kayseri
0.04996518 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.05311400 Iraqi_Jew
0.05336338 Azeri_Turkey
0.05457442 Georgian_Imer
0.05675103 Druze
0.05709388 Lebanese_Druze
0.05715574 Iranian_Lor
0.05724123 Turkish_Adana
0.05757996 Azeri
0.05952592 Cypriot
0.05963511 Azeri_Dagestan
0.06059549 Lebanese_Muslim

Distance to: Armenian:armenia86
0.02117215 Armenian
0.03012093 Turkish_Trabzon
0.03063991 Greek_Trabzon
0.03112125 Assyrian
0.03245313 Georgian_Jew
0.03476402 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.03853049 Iranian_Jew
0.04307088 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04311232 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.04447143 Georgian_Laz
0.04555814 Kurdish
0.04614132 Iraqi_Jew
0.04705158 Ezid
0.05002195 Azeri_Turkey
0.05103434 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.05208410 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05237995 Iranian_Lor
0.05379872 Druze
0.05425865 Lebanese_Druze
0.05796640 Azeri
0.05813311 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05856843 Cypriot
0.05870648 Turkish_Adana
0.05984686 Syrian_Jew
0.06011596 Karaite_Egypt

Distance to: Armenian:armenia279
0.01597944 Armenian
0.01862894 Assyrian
0.02336408 Georgian_Jew
0.02726710 Turkish_Trabzon
0.03049505 Greek_Trabzon
0.03165837 Iranian_Jew
0.03307553 Iraqi_Jew
0.03321068 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.03634293 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.03885568 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.03921759 Lebanese_Druze
0.03950280 Druze
0.04554187 Lebanese_Muslim
0.04724357 Georgian_Laz
0.04778503 Cypriot
0.04819686 Karaite_Egypt
0.04870549 Lebanese_Christian
0.05056319 Syrian_Jew
0.05116413 Kurdish
0.05196869 Syrian
0.05524701 Ezid
0.05535160 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.05581622 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05733153 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.05994663 Iranian_Lor

Distance to: Armenian:armenia176
0.03103779 Assyrian
0.03180703 Armenian
0.03416879 Georgian_Jew
0.03744227 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.03859316 Turkish_Trabzon
0.04051768 Greek_Trabzon
0.04362074 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.04535590 Iranian_Jew
0.04579027 Kurdish
0.04723297 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04920605 Georgian_Laz
0.05104207 Iraqi_Jew
0.05164906 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.05321048 Ezid
0.05385798 Druze
0.05503086 Lebanese_Druze
0.05845125 Iranian_Lor
0.05900282 Turkish_Kayseri
0.06064185 Lebanese_Muslim
0.06209801 Cypriot
0.06298420 Azeri
0.06306930 Syrian
0.06394581 Lebanese_Christian
0.06412967 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.06433891 Syrian_Jew

Distance to: Armenian:armenia139
0.02193709 Armenian
0.02236188 Assyrian
0.02623369 Georgian_Jew
0.03228340 Iraqi_Jew
0.03286586 Iranian_Jew
0.03296309 Turkish_Trabzon
0.03483031 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.03708559 Druze
0.03728436 Greek_Trabzon
0.03753182 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.03788192 Lebanese_Druze
0.04004742 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.04514185 Lebanese_Muslim
0.04563350 Lebanese_Christian
0.04600530 Cypriot
0.04844781 Karaite_Egypt
0.05062569 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.05145048 Syrian_Jew
0.05310124 Syrian
0.05410597 Kurdish
0.05547069 Georgian_Laz
0.05839931 Ezid
0.05850228 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05985452 Greek_Kos
0.06089023 Talysh_Azerbaijan

Distance to: Armenian:armenia102
0.02542629 Armenian
0.03171967 Turkish_Trabzon
0.03192090 Greek_Trabzon
0.03322371 Georgian_Jew
0.03435790 Assyrian
0.03588680 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.04226992 Georgian_Laz
0.04442914 Iranian_Jew
0.04699124 Azeri_Turkey
0.04801838 Kurdish
0.04930083 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.04953110 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.05000952 Ezid
0.05053019 Iraqi_Jew
0.05110399 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.05127198 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05509634 Iranian_Lor
0.05615236 Azeri
0.05668023 Georgian_Imer
0.05725536 Lebanese_Druze
0.05777112 Druze
0.05815248 Turkish_Adana
0.06001731 Azeri_Dagestan
0.06061127 Syrian_Jew
0.06094792 Lebanese_Muslim

Johnny ola
05-31-2020, 07:58 AM
Target: RUS_Catacomb
Distance: 1.2940% / 0.01293997
95.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 Yamnaya_UKR
1.6 GEO_CHG
1.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.0 Levant_Natufian
0.0 TUR_Barcin_N
0.0 WHG


Rus_Catacomb is mostly derived from Yamnaya_Samara, which is THE steppe component in academic circles. The fit is excellent as well. I don't see much CHG or EEF here.

Rus Catacomb is like Yamnaya a combination of EHG+CHG.You dont see much of CHG in later steppe cultures?SAre you trolling me?

Arame
05-31-2020, 09:42 AM
Numerous obsolete theories are discussed in this thread about Armenia and it's neighbourhood.

Let's start with Mannaeans. Mannaeans didn't left any single text in Hurrian. They were using Aramean as a state language. There is no single mention of Mannai before Iron Age. And judging by archaeology they were not even native to that region.
The theory of them being Hurrians is just based on some names. Which represent only 15% of total names mentioned there.

The Steppe ancestry in South Caucasus was introduced at MBA almost certainly from Catacomb culture. There is solid evidence that Prisulak culture in Daguestan was an offshoot of Catacomb.
And they move to South creating Trialeti Vanadzor culture and Urmia culture in NW Iran.

This Urmia culture in NW Iran coincides exactly in time and space with apparition of Gutians. Occam razor says that Z2103 initially was introduced there by Gutians. Later some Hurrians could have assimilated Gutians but this do not mean that Hurrians natively had a Steppe ancestry.

Arslantepe site is in the place where at MLBA period Isuwa kingdom is attested. Isuwa is much better candidate to be a Hurrian kingdom. How much Steppe do they have? I guess not much. And zero cases of Z2103.

And finally. Armenia LBA/IA which is the Lchashen Metsamor culture has excellent correlation with Etiuni confederation that was battling Urartians. There are few names attested from Etiunians and no much evidence that they were Urartians. One of names has transparent Armenian etymology the Diucini parallel form of Diogenes. Even Diakonoff who had clear pro Hurrian bias in tribal assignations was not considering Etiuni as a Urartian tribe. So there is no single theory that Etiuni was another Urartian kingdom battling Biaina Urartu.

And yes Academic Armenians do not represent well the true situation with Armenians.
From linguo-archaeologic point of view I can add also the opinions of Greppin and Zimansky. But overall it is clear that there was no any homogeneity on LBA/IA Armenian Highlands. Various tribes with different cultures and languages. In most likelihood Indo European tribes were more numerous or were controlling strategically important places otherwise Urartians wouldn't vanish replaced by Armenians.

Arame
05-31-2020, 09:58 AM
I2c2 is found in Lchashen wagon chariot burial. With steppe ancestry. So he was an Urartian from Europe? No offcourse.

Korotyr
05-31-2020, 10:21 AM
The Steppe ancestry in South Caucasus was introduced at MBA almost certainly from Catacomb culture. There is solid evidence that Prisulak culture in Daguestan was an offshoot of Catacomb.
And they move to South creating Trialeti Vanadzor culture and Urmia culture in NW Iran.

This Urmia culture in NW Iran coincides exactly in time and space with apparition of Gutians. Occam razor says that Z2103 initially was introduced there by Gutians. Later some Hurrians could have assimilated Gutians but this do not mean that Hurrians natively had a Steppe ancestry.

The Bronze Age Hajji Firuz sample which is speculated to be Gutian by some is genetically closest to Dagestani people. Do you think it's also a good representation of what the BA Trialeti-Vanadzor people would be like autosomally?

37824

Arame
05-31-2020, 10:30 AM
Korotyr

Let's forget about such a useless ( useless from linguistic point of view ) concept as a similarity of ancient sample to modern people. It says virtually nothing about the language of ancient sample. I can show numerous such examples.

As for Trialeti Vanadzor. Yes I think should we have a sample from an early TVC kurgan it might score some unusually high steppe ancestry. Not as much as Hajji Firuz BA. But probably more than median MBA samples we have.

Korotyr
05-31-2020, 10:39 AM
Korotyr

Let's forget about such a useless ( useless from linguistic point of view ) concept as a similarity of ancient sample to modern people. It says virtually nothing about the language of ancient sample. I can show numerous such examples.

As for Trialeti Vanadzor. Yes I think should we have a sample from an early TVC kurgan it might score some unusually high steppe ancestry. Not as much as Hajji Firuz BA. But probably more than median MBA samples we have.

I'm not talking from a linguistic point of view. I just find the similarity interesting, and all in all it goes nice with the theory of Trialeti being connected with Gutians.
Modern Northeast Caucasians can be modeled with three main components - KAC, Steppe (bulk of it being Catacomb-derived) and East Asian. Since Trialeti culture was established in KAC lands, it wouldn't be surprising to see Trialeti being very much akin to modern Dagestani people autosomally.

J Man
05-31-2020, 11:00 AM
I'm not talking from a linguistic point of view. I just find the similarity interesting, and all in all it goes nice with the theory of Trialeti being connected with Gutians.
Modern Northeast Caucasians can be modeled with three main components - KAC, Steppe (bulk of it being Catacomb-derived) and East Asian. Since Trialeti culture was established in KAC lands, it wouldn't be surprising to see Trialeti being very much akin to modern Dagestani people autosomally.

Isn't the Kotias Klde sample part of the Trialeti culture?

Hawk
05-31-2020, 11:07 AM
So, is Y-DNA J1 related with Bronze Age Zagrosi movement of people. How does this correlate with Proto-Semitic people?

Korotyr
05-31-2020, 11:32 AM
Isn't the Kotias Klde sample part of the Trialeti culture?

There are two "Trialeti" cultures, one is Trialetian UP - Mesolithic, the other Trialeti Bronze Age. I think Kotias Klde is Imeretian culture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trialetian_Mesolithic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trialeti_culture


37825

Johnny ola
05-31-2020, 12:00 PM
Armenians are more kura-araxes rather maykop. Georgians, Laz, Colchian-Kartvelian are more Maykop.

StillWater
05-31-2020, 02:52 PM
Did you not see the averages? Armenians clearly show the highest genetic affinity to Trabzonians and Eastern Turks. Eastern Armenians are also closer to Laz and Kurds than they are to Assyrians? Why do you keep emphasizing Assyrians when they are not the closest genetic relatives to Armenians and vice versa? Iran_N is similar to CHG so I don't see how that plays a role. Levant_N admixture in Armenians is also barely higher than it is in Trabzonians. It isn't nearly enough to "shift" them to the Levant. Catacomb has a bit of EEF, NOT CHG but it's mostly comprised of Steppe. Yamnaya Samara is the definition of Steppe component in peer reviewed studies, not Karelia. So if you want to run steppe, you may as well use Yamnaya samples.

And no dude, the two kits I posted is used as academic samples for Armenians on G25/Vahaduo which is totally off the Armenian average HENCE WHY I POSTED IT. It skews the average. They are absolute outliers and differ significantly to the rest of the kits. Also, how would Armenians have Levantine input when Levantines are geographically irrelevant to the Armenian Highlands? Especially when historically it is Levantines that have received more Northern admixture components. Geography much?

I'll leave this here for you again in case you still haven't registered it yet.

Euro_k15(c("Armenian_East"),k=30)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Armenian_East" "0"
[2,] "Turkish_East" "4.0691"
[3,] "Armenian_West" "4.9049"
[4,] "Greek_Trabzon" "5.0443"
[5,] "Turkish_Trabzon" "7.1416"
[6,] "Kurd_Armenia" "8.7901"
[7,] "Kurd" "8.9631"
[8,] "Georgian_Jew" "9.1473"
[9,] "Georgian_Laz" "9.5433"
[10,] "Turk_Meskhetian" "10.7915"
[11,] "Turkish_East_Central" "10.8545"
[12,] "Azerbaijani" "11.0023"
[13,] "Assyrian" "11.2855"
[14,] "Iranian_Lur" "11.347"
[15,] "Iraq_Turkmen" "11.3617"
[16,] "Turkish_Anatolia" "11.4168"
[17,] "Iranian_Mazandarani" "13.6446"
[18,] "Turkish_Sout" "13.6658"
[19,] "Iranian_Persian_Fars" "14.4881"
[20,] "Azeri_Dagestan" "16.6764"
[21,] "Kurdish_Jew" "17.3946"
[22,] "Lebanese_Muslim" "18.6391"
[23,] "Turkish_Southwest" "19.6542"
[24,] "Iranian_Jew" "20.1178"
[25,] "Syrian" "20.4556"
[26,] "Georgian" "20.8162"
[27,] "Turkish_Northwest" "22.705"
[28,] "Lebanese_Christian" "23.2083"
[29,] "Adygei" "23.9183"
[30,] "Turkmen" "24.1397"
>

Why Eurogenes K15?

Johnny ola
05-31-2020, 03:03 PM
Why Eurogenes K15?

These results from his k15 btw are totally of mesopotamian origins.They are closer to Georgian-Caucasian Jews,Assyrians,Kurds rather to Georgians and Azkhabians..

26,] "Georgian" "20.8162"
[8,] "Georgian_Jew" "9.1473"
[13,] "Assyrian" "11.2855"
[6,] "Kurd_Armenia" "8.7901"
[7,] "Kurd" "8.9631"

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 03:51 PM
Rus Catacomb is like Yamnaya a combination of EHG+CHG.You dont see much of CHG in later steppe cultures?SAre you trolling me?

Use Yamnaya if you must, there is still steppe admix.

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 03:53 PM
Why you running averages lol.You can see here that Armenians are by far closer to assyrians and georgian jews(both mesopotamians) in genetics than they are to Georgians and Laz people.Pontic Greeks have also a mesopotamian shift(not all of us) but many of us we score high Levant on autosomal level.

Distance to: Armenian:GS000035125
0.02230273 Armenian
0.02538952 Assyrian
0.02745113 Georgian_Jew
0.03469937 Turkish_Trabzon
0.03585094 Iranian_Jew
0.03603466 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.03605310 Greek_Trabzon
0.04008933 Iraqi_Jew
0.04137463 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.04678785 Druze
0.04719826 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04758401 Lebanese_Druze
0.04863507 Georgian_Laz
0.05304504 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05321938 Kurdish
0.05383800 Karaite_Egypt
0.05560656 Ezid
0.05587241 Lebanese_Christian
0.05628193 Cypriot
0.05711825 Syrian
0.05910061 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.05931828 Syrian_Jew
0.06022292 Iranian_Lor
0.06190007 Turkish_Kayseri
0.06212155 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour

Distance to: Armenian:GS000035124
0.02286947 Armenian
0.03082285 Greek_Trabzon
0.03135828 Turkish_Trabzon
0.03435975 Assyrian
0.03611324 Georgian_Jew
0.03722311 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.04409023 Iranian_Jew
0.04507516 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04606328 Georgian_Laz
0.04610381 Iraqi_Jew
0.05051435 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.05233939 Lebanese_Druze
0.05328833 Druze
0.05499216 Kurdish
0.05638065 Azeri_Turkey
0.05648758 Syrian_Jew
0.05662155 Karaite_Egypt
0.05702922 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05756158 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05764923 Cypriot
0.05774575 Ezid
0.05999741 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.06110789 Syrian
0.06185385 Georgian_Imer
0.06219718 Lebanese_Christian

Distance to: Armenian:GS000013745
0.01955193 Armenian
0.02491883 Greek_Trabzon
0.02493367 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02639217 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.03327944 Georgian_Jew
0.03330063 Assyrian
0.03382034 Georgian_Laz
0.04017820 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04530037 Kurdish
0.04566619 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.04589562 Iranian_Jew
0.04940238 Ezid
0.04989469 Turkish_Kayseri
0.04996518 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.05311400 Iraqi_Jew
0.05336338 Azeri_Turkey
0.05457442 Georgian_Imer
0.05675103 Druze
0.05709388 Lebanese_Druze
0.05715574 Iranian_Lor
0.05724123 Turkish_Adana
0.05757996 Azeri
0.05952592 Cypriot
0.05963511 Azeri_Dagestan
0.06059549 Lebanese_Muslim

Distance to: Armenian:armenia86
0.02117215 Armenian
0.03012093 Turkish_Trabzon
0.03063991 Greek_Trabzon
0.03112125 Assyrian
0.03245313 Georgian_Jew
0.03476402 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.03853049 Iranian_Jew
0.04307088 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04311232 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.04447143 Georgian_Laz
0.04555814 Kurdish
0.04614132 Iraqi_Jew
0.04705158 Ezid
0.05002195 Azeri_Turkey
0.05103434 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.05208410 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05237995 Iranian_Lor
0.05379872 Druze
0.05425865 Lebanese_Druze
0.05796640 Azeri
0.05813311 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05856843 Cypriot
0.05870648 Turkish_Adana
0.05984686 Syrian_Jew
0.06011596 Karaite_Egypt

Distance to: Armenian:armenia279
0.01597944 Armenian
0.01862894 Assyrian
0.02336408 Georgian_Jew
0.02726710 Turkish_Trabzon
0.03049505 Greek_Trabzon
0.03165837 Iranian_Jew
0.03307553 Iraqi_Jew
0.03321068 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.03634293 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.03885568 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.03921759 Lebanese_Druze
0.03950280 Druze
0.04554187 Lebanese_Muslim
0.04724357 Georgian_Laz
0.04778503 Cypriot
0.04819686 Karaite_Egypt
0.04870549 Lebanese_Christian
0.05056319 Syrian_Jew
0.05116413 Kurdish
0.05196869 Syrian
0.05524701 Ezid
0.05535160 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.05581622 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05733153 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.05994663 Iranian_Lor

Distance to: Armenian:armenia176
0.03103779 Assyrian
0.03180703 Armenian
0.03416879 Georgian_Jew
0.03744227 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.03859316 Turkish_Trabzon
0.04051768 Greek_Trabzon
0.04362074 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.04535590 Iranian_Jew
0.04579027 Kurdish
0.04723297 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04920605 Georgian_Laz
0.05104207 Iraqi_Jew
0.05164906 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.05321048 Ezid
0.05385798 Druze
0.05503086 Lebanese_Druze
0.05845125 Iranian_Lor
0.05900282 Turkish_Kayseri
0.06064185 Lebanese_Muslim
0.06209801 Cypriot
0.06298420 Azeri
0.06306930 Syrian
0.06394581 Lebanese_Christian
0.06412967 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.06433891 Syrian_Jew

Distance to: Armenian:armenia139
0.02193709 Armenian
0.02236188 Assyrian
0.02623369 Georgian_Jew
0.03228340 Iraqi_Jew
0.03286586 Iranian_Jew
0.03296309 Turkish_Trabzon
0.03483031 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.03708559 Druze
0.03728436 Greek_Trabzon
0.03753182 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.03788192 Lebanese_Druze
0.04004742 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.04514185 Lebanese_Muslim
0.04563350 Lebanese_Christian
0.04600530 Cypriot
0.04844781 Karaite_Egypt
0.05062569 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.05145048 Syrian_Jew
0.05310124 Syrian
0.05410597 Kurdish
0.05547069 Georgian_Laz
0.05839931 Ezid
0.05850228 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05985452 Greek_Kos
0.06089023 Talysh_Azerbaijan

Distance to: Armenian:armenia102
0.02542629 Armenian
0.03171967 Turkish_Trabzon
0.03192090 Greek_Trabzon
0.03322371 Georgian_Jew
0.03435790 Assyrian
0.03588680 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.04226992 Georgian_Laz
0.04442914 Iranian_Jew
0.04699124 Azeri_Turkey
0.04801838 Kurdish
0.04930083 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.04953110 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.05000952 Ezid
0.05053019 Iraqi_Jew
0.05110399 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.05127198 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05509634 Iranian_Lor
0.05615236 Azeri
0.05668023 Georgian_Imer
0.05725536 Lebanese_Druze
0.05777112 Druze
0.05815248 Turkish_Adana
0.06001731 Azeri_Dagestan
0.06061127 Syrian_Jew
0.06094792 Lebanese_Muslim

I already showed you why these academic samples, particularly 139 and 279 are not representative of real individuals. Do you really need me to post that custom K15 calculator again? The samples sizes and quality of samples are sorely lacking on G25, particularly for West Asia.

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 03:57 PM
Why Eurogenes K15?

I don't have coordinates of real individuals to use on Vahaduo hence why I made averages for various populations in West Asia for K15.

StillWater
05-31-2020, 04:00 PM
I don't have coordinates of real individuals to use on Vahaduo hence why I made averages for various populations in West Asia for K15.

There was a recent study where Armenians also plotted between the Caucasus and the Levant.

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 04:00 PM
These results from his k15 btw are totally of mesopotamian origins.They are closer to Georgian-Caucasian Jews,Assyrians,Kurds rather to Georgians and Azkhabians..

26,] "Georgian" "20.8162"
[8,] "Georgian_Jew" "9.1473"
[13,] "Assyrian" "11.2855"
[6,] "Kurd_Armenia" "8.7901"
[7,] "Kurd" "8.9631"

How are they totally of Mesopotamian origins? Are you joking here? They are clearly closer to Trabzonians and Eastern Turks as well as Kurds and Azeris than they are any Mesopotamian population. Yeah totally Mesopotamian lool.


Show me a Mesopotamian population, just a single one that would get those populations as their closest matches. I'm not even including about Laz or Meskhetian Turks. Show me and I promise you I will delete my account and never post here again.

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 04:02 PM
There was a recent study where Armenians also plotted between the Caucasus and the Levant.

What samples did this study use? If the averages used kits like armenia139 and armenia279 in their references then its not surprising at all. And not quite accurate either I may add.

You saw the averages for the custom K15 calculator so you tell me where they would plot.

StillWater
05-31-2020, 04:13 PM
What samples did this study use? If the averages used kits like armenia139 and armenia279 in their references then its not surprising at all. And not quite accurate either I may add.

You saw the averages for the custom K15 calculator so you tell me where they would plot.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015206/figures/2


Armenian samples were collected from Lebanon (n=39) and Armenia: Chambarak (n=30), Dprabak (n=18), Gavar (n=12), Martuni (n=19), Yegvard (n=11), and Yerevan (n=9). Armenian individuals recruited in Lebanon traced their ancestry to East Turkey

Your samples would also probably plot between the Caucasus and the Levant. K15 is inferior here. The guy who is both responsible for the G25 samples and Eurogenes K15 is on this forum. Ask him which one is more reliable in this case.

Johnny ola
05-31-2020, 04:13 PM
How are they totally of Mesopotamian origins? Are you joking here? They are clearly closer to Trabzonians and Eastern Turks as well as Kurds and Azeris than they are any Mesopotamian population. Yeah totally Mesopotamian lool.


Show me a Mesopotamian population, just a single one that would get those populations as their closest matches. I'm not even including about Laz or Meskhetian Turks. Show me and I promise you I will delete my account and never post here again.

People from Trabzon are not pure caucasians.They got a levant/east med shift as well making them clushter with armenians,assyrians.Otherwise we would be much closer to Laz and Georgians.I would recommend you to use G25 and not averages from K15.I have posted the samples above and many of these Armenian individuals coming closer to Assyrians.

And as you can see also from your K15 you are much closer to Assyrians and Georgian Jews(who both have mesopotamian like genes) rather to Georgians who considered to be a pure South Caucasian ethnic group.

26,] "Georgian" "20.8162"
[13,] "Assyrian" "11.2855"
[8,] "Georgian_Jew" "9.1473"



Armenian average on G25.As you can see you are much closer to Assyrians than you believe...!A peaceful and friendly advice...stop losing your time in Apricity..there is nothing to learn there!Gedmatch is also very archaic you have nothing to win from it..

Distance to: Armenian
0.01819288 Assyrian
0.02085104 Georgian_Jew
0.02178378 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02383436 Greek_Trabzon
0.02678610 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.03295458 Iranian_Jew
0.03679200 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.03722534 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.03829473 Iraqi_Jew
0.04012472 Georgian_Laz
0.04428048 Kurdish
0.04482187 Druze
0.04505728 Lebanese_Druze
0.04825761 Ezid
0.05027624 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.05054279 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05085342 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05181980 Cypriot
0.05302905 Karaite_Egypt
0.05343269 Syrian_Jew
0.05352174 Azeri_Turkey
0.05409541 Iranian_Lor
0.05485990 Syrian
0.05548947 Lebanese_Christian
0.05780534 Azeri

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 04:14 PM
Numerous obsolete theories are discussed in this thread about Armenia and it's neighbourhood.

Let's start with Mannaeans. Mannaeans didn't left any single text in Hurrian. They were using Aramean as a state language. There is no single mention of Mannai before Iron Age. And judging by archaeology they were not even native to that region.
The theory of them being Hurrians is just based on some names. Which represent only 15% of total names mentioned there.

The Steppe ancestry in South Caucasus was introduced at MBA almost certainly from Catacomb culture. There is solid evidence that Prisulak culture in Daguestan was an offshoot of Catacomb.
And they move to South creating Trialeti Vanadzor culture and Urmia culture in NW Iran.

This Urmia culture in NW Iran coincides exactly in time and space with apparition of Gutians. Occam razor says that Z2103 initially was introduced there by Gutians. Later some Hurrians could have assimilated Gutians but this do not mean that Hurrians natively had a Steppe ancestry.

Arslantepe site is in the place where at MLBA period Isuwa kingdom is attested. Isuwa is much better candidate to be a Hurrian kingdom. How much Steppe do they have? I guess not much. And zero cases of Z2103.

And finally. Armenia LBA/IA which is the Lchashen Metsamor culture has excellent correlation with Etiuni confederation that was battling Urartians. There are few names attested from Etiunians and no much evidence that they were Urartians. One of names has transparent Armenian etymology the Diucini parallel form of Diogenes. Even Diakonoff who had clear pro Hurrian bias in tribal assignations was not considering Etiuni as a Urartian tribe. So there is no single theory that Etiuni was another Urartian kingdom battling Biaina Urartu.

And yes Academic Armenians do not represent well the true situation with Armenians.
From linguo-archaeologic point of view I can add also the opinions of Greppin and Zimansky. But overall it is clear that there was no any homogeneity on LBA/IA Armenian Highlands. Various tribes with different cultures and languages. In most likelihood Indo European tribes were more numerous or were controlling strategically important places otherwise Urartians wouldn't vanish replaced by Armenians.

Thank you. You aren't the first person to tell mention that Catacomb is the direct source of steppe in Armenians. I tried explaining this to the Pontic fellow to no avail. He kept mentioning how Catacomb has a lot of CHG in order to downplay the steppe admix in Armenians so I used Yamnaya instead and the difference was minimal. The Yamnaya component still averaged at around 11-12% in the 'academic' samples. The Catacomb reference barely masked any CHG admix.

I don't understand why it's hard to believe that Armenians do have steppe admixture above noise level. What's unbelievable or impossible about this? It's not like this will make them plot in Lithuania or anything lol.

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 04:17 PM
Armenians are more kura-araxes rather maykop. Georgians, Laz, Colchian-Kartvelian are more Maykop.

That's a fairly accurate assessment considering that KA has EEF and Iran_N on top of the CHG which are the defining components for Armenians today.

Congrats, the first accurate thing you've said about Armenians thus far.

Johnny ola
05-31-2020, 04:18 PM
Trabzon Average.

Distance to: Greek_Trabzon
0.01126935 Turkish_Trabzon
0.01771818 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.02383436 Armenian
0.02459473 Georgian_Laz
0.03749232 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.03998616 Assyrian
0.04093560 Georgian_Jew
0.04710916 Georgian_Imer
0.05467952 Iranian_Jew
0.05627032 Iraqi_Jew
0.05746493 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05759346 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.05798723 Abkhasian
0.05862152 Kurdish
0.05912871 Druze
0.05927837 Cypriot
0.05940869 Lebanese_Druze
0.06062925 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.06287032 Ezid
0.06314316 Azeri_Turkey
0.06325623 Syrian_Jew
0.06342342 Greek_Kos
0.06461933 Lebanese_Muslim
0.06572481 Turkish_Adana
0.06574847 Karaite_Egypt


We are much closer to Armenians,Assyrians and Georgian Jews rather to Georgians and Abkhasians.Laz and Armenian Hemsheni are pretty much the same with people from Trabzon but less east med shifted.

Johnny ola
05-31-2020, 04:23 PM
That's a fairly accurate assessment considering that KA has EEF and Iran_N on top of the CHG which are the defining components for Armenians today.

Congrats, the first accurate thing you've said about Armenians thus far.

Maykop and Kura-Araxes are not tha different as you think.Actually Maykop culture was a hotspot of immigrants from South.Both K.A and Maykop sharing pretty much the same components.The big diffrence from the samples we got is that Maykop is by far richer with CHG related ancestry while K.A contains more Iran N and ANF like the samples we have lately from /Shulaveri-Shomu culture witch is also a less CHG admixed culture.So,the diffrences between K.A and Maykop are not huge, they both had transcaucasian genes.

J Man
05-31-2020, 04:28 PM
I know that that thread is about autosomal DNA but I find it interesting since my paternal line is likely originally Armenian in origin before arriving in Italy. My closest match of yfull is with an Armenian man....J-YP879a

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 04:31 PM
People from Trabzon are not pure caucasians.They got a levant/east med shift as well making them clushter with armenians,assyrians.Otherwise we would be much closer to Laz and Georgians.I would recommend you to use G25 and not averages from K15.I have posted the samples above and many of these Armenian individuals coming closer to Assyrians.

And as you can see also from your K15 you are much closer to Assyrians and Georgian Jews(who both have mesopotamian like genes) rather to Georgians who considered to be a pure South Caucasian ethnic group.

26,] "Georgian" "20.8162"
[13,] "Assyrian" "11.2855"
[8,] "Georgian_Jew" "9.1473"



Armenian average on G25.As you can see you are much closer to Assyrians than you believe...!A peaceful and friendly advice...stop losing your time in Apricity..there is nothing to learn there!Gedmatch is also very archaic you have nothing to win from it..

Distance to: Armenian
0.01819288 Assyrian
0.02085104 Georgian_Jew
0.02178378 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02383436 Greek_Trabzon
0.02678610 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.03295458 Iranian_Jew
0.03679200 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.03722534 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.03829473 Iraqi_Jew
0.04012472 Georgian_Laz
0.04428048 Kurdish
0.04482187 Druze
0.04505728 Lebanese_Druze
0.04825761 Ezid
0.05027624 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.05054279 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05085342 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05181980 Cypriot
0.05302905 Karaite_Egypt
0.05343269 Syrian_Jew
0.05352174 Azeri_Turkey
0.05409541 Iranian_Lor
0.05485990 Syrian
0.05548947 Lebanese_Christian
0.05780534 Azeri

It seems that you're having trouble understanding that academic samples are NOT representative of real individuals.

Furthermore, I already explained to you that certain kits on G25 are complete outliers such as 279 and 139 which skew the overall average as it is.

To put it bluntly: I tell you the samples are shit and you keep using the same exact samples to push your point.

I used real kits from K15 because I don't have any coordinates to use for Vahaduo/G25.

Are you understanding this now?


Also, I don't care that people from Trabzon are not pure Caucasians. That isn't the point here. You made the ridiculous assumption that Armenians are of heavily Mesopotamian origin and I called you out on it to show me a single population that derives their ancestry from Mesopotamia that clusters closest to Eastern Turks, Trabzonians, Kurds, and even Laz and Azeris.

You clearly failed to do so and now you want to backtrack. I will give you another chance to prove that to me.

You have Iraqi Jews, Kurdish Jews, Iranian Jews, and Assyrians to choose from.

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 04:33 PM
Maykop and Kura-Araxes are not tha different as you think.Actually Maykop culture was a hotspot of immigrants from South.Both K.A and Maykop sharing pretty much the same components.The big diffrence from the samples we got is that Maykop is by far richer with CHG related ancestry while K.A contains more Iran N and ANF like the samples we have lately from /Shulaveri-Shomu culture witch is also a less CHG admixed culture.So,the diffrences between K.A and Maykop are not huge, they both had transcaucasian genes.

You're basically telling me what I already know and stated in the previous post.

StillWater
05-31-2020, 04:38 PM
It seems that you're having trouble understanding that academic samples are NOT representative of real individuals.

Furthermore, I already explained to you that certain kits on G25 are complete outliers such as 279 and 139 which skew the overall average as it is.

To put it bluntly: I tell you the samples are shit and you keep using the same exact samples to push your point.

I used real kits from K15 because I don't have any coordinates to use for Vahaduo/G25.

Are you understanding this now?


Also, I don't care that people from Trabzon are not pure Caucasians. That isn't the point here. You made the ridiculous assumption that Armenians are of heavily Mesopotamian origin and I called you out on it to show me a single population that derives their ancestry from Mesopotamia that clusters closest to Eastern Turks, Trabzonians, Kurds, and even Laz and Azeris.

You clearly failed to do so and now you want to backtrack. I will give you another chance to prove that to me.

You have Iraqi Jews, Kurdish Jews, Iranian Jews, and Assyrians to choose from.

Kurds aren't Mesopotamian?

What's the sampling bias in these studies? I showed you the sources for the samples. Are study samples not being processed properly, while Gedmatch is doing this properly with K15?

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 04:39 PM
Trabzon Average.

Distance to: Greek_Trabzon
0.01126935 Turkish_Trabzon
0.01771818 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.02383436 Armenian
0.02459473 Georgian_Laz
0.03749232 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.03998616 Assyrian
0.04093560 Georgian_Jew
0.04710916 Georgian_Imer
0.05467952 Iranian_Jew
0.05627032 Iraqi_Jew
0.05746493 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05759346 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
0.05798723 Abkhasian
0.05862152 Kurdish
0.05912871 Druze
0.05927837 Cypriot
0.05940869 Lebanese_Druze
0.06062925 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.06287032 Ezid
0.06314316 Azeri_Turkey
0.06325623 Syrian_Jew
0.06342342 Greek_Kos
0.06461933 Lebanese_Muslim
0.06572481 Turkish_Adana
0.06574847 Karaite_Egypt


We are much closer to Armenians,Assyrians and Georgian Jews rather to Georgians and Abkhasians.Laz and Armenian Hemsheni are pretty much the same with people from Trabzon but less east med shifted.

That's not the point. I don't care about Georgians nor distances to Georgians. I care about Armenian auDNA and how they plot without resorting to faulty and nonsensical academic samples.

Based off my findings, I see that Trabzonians, Eastern Turks and Kurds are far more relevant to Armenians than Georgians, Assyrians or whoever else. That is the point here.

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 04:40 PM
Kurds aren't Mesopotamian?

What's the sampling bias in these studies? I showed you the sources for the samples. Are study samples not being processed properly, while Gedmatch is doing this properly with K15?

No they aren't. They are native to the Zagros mountains in Iran and cluster with Yezdi, Azeri and certain Iranian groups.

Johnny ola
05-31-2020, 04:42 PM
It seems that you're having trouble understanding that academic samples are NOT representative of real individuals.

Furthermore, I already explained to you that certain kits on G25 are complete outliers such as 279 and 139 which skew the overall average as it is.

To put it bluntly: I tell you the samples are shit and you keep using the same exact samples to push your point.

I used real kits from K15 because I don't have any coordinates to use for Vahaduo/G25.

Are you understanding this now?


Also, I don't care that people from Trabzon are not pure Caucasians. That isn't the point here. You made the ridiculous assumption that Armenians are of heavily Mesopotamian origin and I called you out on it to show me a single population that derives their ancestry from Mesopotamia that clusters closest to Eastern Turks, Trabzonians, Kurds, and even Laz and Azeris.

You clearly failed to do so and now you want to backtrack. I will give you another chance to prove that to me.

You have Iraqi Jews, Kurdish Jews, Iranian Jews, and Assyrians to choose from.

The samples from G25 are fine.It is you having problem with mesopotamian/levant admixture.If they are 'shit' as you mention then your apologies to Davidski.Btw the samples does not seems to be outliers as you call them.They look fine for Armenians and personally i don't see something weird to them.And for the last time people like eastern turks(assilimated armenians),Kurds,Trabzonians,Laz,Iranian Jews,Iraqi Jews,Assyrians,Kurdish Jews,Georgian Jews have their own spectrum witch is the Mesopotamian group.

Not only in G25 but also in K15 Armenians are not close to Georgians and simply because Armenians have admixtures that Georgians lacking...!

From yDNA kind of view many Armenians carry J1 lineages.They are probably of Cannanite/Levantine roots...

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 04:49 PM
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015206/figures/2



Your samples would also probably plot between the Caucasus and the Levant. K15 is inferior here. The guy who is both responsible for the G25 samples and Eurogenes K15 is on this forum. Ask him which one is more reliable in this case.

Unless Trabzonians, Eastern Turks, Laz and Kurds plot between the Caucasus and Levant then I doubt that would be the case for Armenians, especially eastern Armenians.

Does this guy have coordinates for real individuals? That would be awesome because I only used K15 because of the lack of coordinates and poor sample sizes on Vahaduo/G25.

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 04:55 PM
The samples from G25 are fine.It is you having problem with mesopotamian/levant admixture.If they are 'shit' as you mention then your apologies to Davidski.Btw the samples does not seems to be outliers as you call them.They look fine for Armenians and personally i don't see something weird to them.And for the last time people like eastern turks(assilimated armenians),Kurds,Trabzonians,Laz,Iranian Jews,Iraqi Jews,Assyrians,Kurdish Jews,Georgian Jews have their own spectrum witch is the Mesopotamian group.

Not only in G25 but also in K15 Armenians are not close to Georgians and simply because Armenians have admixtures that Georgians lacking...!

From yDNA kind of view many Armenians carry J1 lineages.They are probably of Cannanite/Levantine roots...

Again, I showed you why they are outliers using their oracles and compared them with the Armenian average. If you can't see how those are outliers then what else is there to discuss?

Again with your Mesopotamian fetish lol. Half those listed ethnic groups don't cluster anywhere near the other half. I feel like you're making things up now.

Armenians carry J1. Up to 11% of the population, yes. WHICH SUBCLADES ARE THEY? Why are you assuming that it has anything to do with Canaanites?

Jesus dude I'm not going to lie but debating with you is like talking with a brick wall sometimes.

StillWater
05-31-2020, 04:55 PM
Unless Trabzonians, Eastern Turks, Laz and Kurds plot between the Caucasus and Levant then I doubt that would be the case for Armenians, especially eastern Armenians.

Does this guy have coordinates for real individuals? That would be awesome because I only used K15 because of the lack of coordinates and poor sample sizes on Vahaduo/G25.

Does "real individual" mean someone you've spoken to? Why is this a criteria?

StillWater
05-31-2020, 05:00 PM
Again, I showed you why they are outliers using their oracles and compared them with the Armenian average. If you can't see how those are outliers then what else is there to discuss?

Again with your Mesopotamian fetish lol. Half those listed ethnic groups don't cluster anywhere near the other half. I feel like you're making things up now.

Armenians carry J1. Up to 11% of the population, yes. WHICH SUBCLADES ARE THEY? Why are you assuming that it has anything to do with Canaanites?

Jesus dude I'm not going to lie but debating with you is like talking with a brick wall sometimes.

Here are some Johnny is probably thinking of:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2285/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS1680/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS2121/

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 05:08 PM
Does "real individual" mean someone you've spoken to? Why is this a criteria?

Individuals with real names. Their averages differ noticeably compared to academic samples. That has been my experience thus far.

StillWater
05-31-2020, 05:11 PM
Individuals with real names. Their averages differ noticeably compared to academic samples. That has been my experience thus far.

What could possibly be the reason for this?

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 05:40 PM
What could possibly be the reason for this?

Why? I honestly haven't a clue. But I do know for a fact that they differ significantly.

For example, I made an average for the academic samples available on Vahaduo(armenia86,139, etc) using K15 and they average out to about

38%West Asian
42%East Med!(you read that correctly)
Roughly 8% total Atlantic Baltic etc
Around 4% West Med

When I used real names for the Armenian_East reference

38-39% West Asian
32-33% East Med
12% combined Atlantic Baltic etc
7% West Med

The samples on G25 being used belong to the former. Keep in mind that I used K15 simply because I do not have coordinates for real individuals because otherwise I would have compared them using Vahaduo.

Keep in mind that I am well aware that Vahaduo is superior to K15. I am simply trying to illustrate why using these academic samples may not be the best thing to do and will certainly exaggerate genetic affinity to certain populations that we aren't THAT close to.

StillWater
05-31-2020, 05:44 PM
Why? I honestly haven't a clue. But I do know for a fact that they differ significantly.

For example, I made an average for the academic samples available on Vahaduo(armenia86,139, etc) using K15 and they average out to about

38%West Asian
42%East Med!(you read that correctly)
Roughly 8% total Atlantic Baltic etc
Around 4% West Med

When I used real names for the Armenian_East reference

38-39% West Asian
32-33% East Med
12% combined Atlantic Baltic etc
7% West Med

The samples on G25 being used belong to the former. Keep in mind that I used K15 simply because I do not have coordinates for real individuals because otherwise I would have compared them using Vahaduo.

Keep in mind that I am well aware that Vahaduo is superior to K15. I am simply trying to illustrate why using these academic samples may not be the best thing to do and will certainly exaggerate genetic affinity to certain populations that we aren't THAT close to.

K15 on Gedmatch =/= K15 on Vahaduo.

Le'ts pretend that your samples do in fact differ from the academic samples. Why is that yours are correct, but the academic samples should be taken with caution, and not the reverse?

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 05:59 PM
Again, I showed you why they are outliers using their oracles and compared them with the Armenian average. If you can't see how those are outliers then what else is there to discuss?

Again with your Mesopotamian fetish lol. Half those listed ethnic groups don't cluster anywhere near the other half. I feel like you're making things up now.

Armenians carry J1. Up to 11% of the population, yes. WHICH SUBCLADES ARE THEY? Why are you assuming that it has anything to do with Canaanites?

Jesus dude I'm not going to lie but debating with you is like talking with a brick wall sometimes.


K15 on Gedmatch =/= K15 on Vahaduo.

Le'ts pretend that your samples do in fact differ from the academic samples. Why is that yours are correct, but the academic samples should be taken with caution, and not the reverse?

Because I have yet to find individuals that score like those academic samples do. At this point I probably ran through 50 or 60 kits. You're not insinuating that a handful of academic samples are more accurate than many individual kits, are you? There's nothing to pretend because what I am telling you is factual.

K15 on Vahaduo is the same K15 that I've compiled averages for. I was never talking about the default K15 on Gedmatch. It's the custom averages that Lukasz added on Vahaduo.

dosas
05-31-2020, 06:53 PM
Because I have yet to find individuals that score like those academic samples do. At this point I probably ran through 50 or 60 kits. You're not insinuating that a handful of academic samples are more accurate than many individual kits, are you? There's nothing to pretend because what I am telling you is factual.


But you may be injecting your own personal bias, even w/o realising it. Why don't you publish a paper, or post a detailed forum post/blog article, challenging the aforementioned research with those samples, instead of being condescending and unnecessarily aggressive on the intrawebs? The burden of proof lies with the accuser.

StillWater
05-31-2020, 07:02 PM
K15 on Vahaduo is the same K15 that I've compiled averages for. I was never talking about the default K15 on Gedmatch. It's the custom averages that Lukasz added on Vahaduo.

Did Lukasz first upload the academic samples to Gedmatch?

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 07:06 PM
But you may be injecting your own personal bias, even w/o realising it. Why don't you publish a paper challenging the aforementioned research with those samples, instead of being condescending and unnecessarily aggressive on the intrawebs?

How would I be injecting my own bias in this when whatever I am saying are objective facts? It is a legitimate question that I asked StillWater when I asked him if he was insinuating that a handful of 'academic' samples are more accurate than dozens of real individuals. I don't think publishing a paper is necessary when I have already compiled averages of various ethnic groups in West Asia to highlight and prove my points. If that's not good enough then really, I don't know what good any paper will do or if it's even worth my time at this point.

If I had access to coordinates then I surely would've used Vahaduo as opposed to K15 to demonstrate my point. One thing that I've noticed on anthroforums is that it's nearly impossible to change the minds of people whose heads are already filled with a lot of conjecture and hearsay. They're going to roll with whatever they believe like Johnny Ola here for example. This isn't the first time I've had conversations like these with him either. Debating with him tends to bring out the aggressive side in me lol.

NarLFC
05-31-2020, 07:07 PM
Did Lukasz first upload the academic samples to Gedmatch?

No idea. What I'm say is the "Armenian_East/West" references were compiled by me. He must've updated this to the custom K15 on Vahaduo.

StillWater
06-01-2020, 01:52 AM
How would I be injecting my own bias in this when whatever I am saying are objective facts? It is a legitimate question that I asked StillWater when I asked him if he was insinuating that a handful of 'academic' samples are more accurate than dozens of real individuals. I don't think publishing a paper is necessary when I have already compiled averages of various ethnic groups in West Asia to highlight and prove my points. If that's not good enough then really, I don't know what good any paper will do or if it's even worth my time at this point.

If I had access to coordinates then I surely would've used Vahaduo as opposed to K15 to demonstrate my point. One thing that I've noticed on anthroforums is that it's nearly impossible to change the minds of people whose heads are already filled with a lot of conjecture and hearsay. They're going to roll with whatever they believe like Johnny Ola here for example. This isn't the first time I've had conversations like these with him either. Debating with him tends to bring out the aggressive side in me lol.

We're saying that your point either wouldn't exist or would be different with G25. Both the study I linked and G25 point to Armenians plotting between the Caucasus and the Levant. It's not just G25 and its samples suggesting this. We've also shown you Levantine clades in Armenians. While, on the other side there is you and your K15, which doesn't quite demonstrate what you think it does anyhow. Do you think the study I linked also suffers from some major flaw?

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 04:01 AM
We're saying that your point either wouldn't exist or would be different with G25. Both the study I linked and G25 point to Armenians plotting between the Caucasus and the Levant. It's not just G25 and its samples suggesting this. We've also shown you Levantine clades in Armenians. While, on the other side there is you and your K15, which doesn't quite demonstrate what you think it does anyhow. Do you think the study I linked also suffers from some major flaw?

What percent of those J1(only 11% of the entire population btw) clades are Levantine in origin? There are various clades of J1. Also, I don't see how that has to do with anything seeing as how J1 is hardly important as it pertains to Armenians. The R1a haplo is found among Armenians to the tune of nearly 10% yet noone ever brings that up. I'm not even talking about R1b or J2 which are far more prominent and important as well as G. But I digress.

I'm sorry what are you having issues understanding here? G25 academic samples are not representative of real people. I demonstrated this earlier by using K15 to illustrate these differences. East Medish affinities are greatly exaggerated on those samples with some individual kits scoring as high as 48-50% East Med. Nobody scores anywhere remotely close to such exaggerated numbers from real kits. If you can't understand this then there is absolutely nothing else to discuss with you.

Arame
06-01-2020, 10:41 AM
NarLFC

Because me also noticed ( I got complains) that many real Armenians do not plot in Gedmatch with academic Armenians I will try to get their coordonates in G25.

As for that Hajji Firuz BA in the PCA she is in the no man's land, so it's proximity to any modern pop is relative.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iZsuUGUP-Ow/Xc0sCbKDcQI/AAAAAAAAIaE/d15jv7rGXkwWjybSoBetC6o2oyT7TS6AQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Hajji_Firuz_I2327_vs_ChL.png

Arame
06-01-2020, 10:59 AM
Before this papers from all available ancient samples the closest to modern Armenians was the Hajji Firuz Chl.
I will post about this soon.

Notice personally I don't care much about how modern Armenians look. And yes Armenians do have some Levantine/Mesopotamian haplotypes but I don't think its level is unusual relative to geography.

Johnny ola
06-01-2020, 12:14 PM
Before this papers from all available ancient samples the closest to modern Armenians was the Hajji Firuz Chl.
I will post about this soon.

Notice personally I don't care much about how modern Armenians look. And yes Armenians do have some Levantine/Mesopotamian haplotypes but I don't think its level is unusual relative to geography.

Arame.Armenians have a long history.Their kingdoms during the periods have definitely assilimate other populations.It is normal some individuals to plot more levantine/mesopotamian shifted.

Armenians also left their homeland for some time when Turkish Tribes arrived in West Asia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Kingdom_of_Cilicia


But IMO Armenians are mostly descendants of Hurrian-Urartian with probably a steppe 'Elite' population(Proto-Armenian) that forced the IE languange and these R1b lineages.During middle ages assilimations with other ethnic groups are very likely to happened.

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 12:57 PM
Arame.Armenians have a long history.Their kingdoms during the periods have definitely assilimate other populations.It is normal some individuals to plot more levantine/mesopotamian shifted.

Armenians also left their homeland for some time when Turkish Tribes arrived in West Asia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Kingdom_of_Cilicia


But IMO Armenians are mostly descendants of Hurrian-Urartian with probably a steppe 'Elite' population(Proto-Armenian) that forced the IE languange and these R1b lineages.During middle ages assilimations with other ethnic groups are very likely to happened.

Turns out Karelia_HG is not a good source for Steppe hence why the fit distances for your models weren't so good earlier on. I asked a more knowledgeable user yesterday regarding which steppe components are generally used and considered the purest form of steppe(or as pure as you can get) and they said that Yamnaya from Russia or Ukraine is generally considered the source for steppe as well as Andronovo and Afanasievo. The latter is partly relevant in non-Europeans.

Then I proceeded to ask them about Catacomb and just as I thought, they recommended for it to be used for Armenians considering that's likely the steppe source for Armenians today. If you need, I can PM you my exchange with this user and you can see for yourself. This is what they relayed to me:

Yeah, Karelia HG is not steppe but EHG sample. And EHG dna was only half (a bit less) of steppe IE admixture.

Id make you but I am traveling today and have on PC. It is definitelly not a good source for steppe admix at all. Do you know where Karelia is? Extreme north if Europe in forest zone tousands if km from steppe



And Finns live there.

This person actually thought you were trolling too after I explained to her your initial thoughts and assertions. They said that some steppe admixture is to be expected for a population that has a lot of R haplos.

What's funny is that you make a big deal and exaggerate supposed Levantine affinities of Armenians thanks to a few J1s yet undermine and ignore steppe affinities when I showed you than steppe affinity is arguably more important even on those questionable kits. Roughly 40% of the entire population, and in some regions even highers have some sort of R haplotype. Do you honestly think it's even possible to lack some steppe ancestry yet have so much supposed Levantine affinity while having far far less Levantine-like haplotypes? Let's put our thinking cap on for a second....

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 01:04 PM
Before this papers from all available ancient samples the closest to modern Armenians was the Hajji Firuz Chl.
I will post about this soon.

Notice personally I don't care much about how modern Armenians look. And yes Armenians do have some Levantine/Mesopotamian haplotypes but I don't think its level is unusual relative to geography.

It's not unusual to have the amount of haplotypes we have, yes. What's unusual is the amount of R haplotypes Armenians do have and somehow magically being absolutely steppe-bereft according to our friend here. I already proved that isn't the case at all.

Johnny ola
06-01-2020, 01:13 PM
Turns out Karelia_HG is not a good source for Steppe hence why the fit distances for your models weren't so good earlier on. I asked a more knowledgeable user yesterday regarding which steppe components are generally used and considered the purest form of steppe(or as pure as you can get) and they said that Yamnaya from Russia or Ukraine is generally considered the source for steppe as well as Andronovo and Afanasievo. The latter is partly relevant in non-Europeans.

Then I proceeded to ask them about Catacomb and just as I thought, they recommended for it to be used for Armenians considering that's likely the steppe source for Armenians today. If you need, I can PM you my exchange with this user and you can see for yourself. This is what they relayed to me:

Yeah, Karelia HG is not steppe but EHG sample. And EHG dna was only half (a bit less) of steppe IE admixture.

Id make you but I am traveling today and have on PC. It is definitelly not a good source for steppe admix at all. Do you know where Karelia is? Extreme north if Europe in forest zone tousands if km from steppe



And Finns live there.

This person actually thought you were trolling too after I explained to her your initial thoughts and assertions. They said that some steppe admixture is to be expected for a population that has a lot of R haplos.

What's funny is that you make a big deal and exaggerate supposed Levantine affinities of Armenians thanks to a few J1s yet undermine and ignore steppe affinities when I showed you than steppe affinity is arguably more important even on those questionable kits.





You were talking about 15% steppe among armenians.



Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 3.7477% / 0.03747720
39.8 TUR_Barcin_N
24.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 GEO_CHG
12.6 Levant_Natufian
1.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 3.5994% / 0.03599424
41.4 TUR_Barcin_N
23.4 GEO_CHG
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 Levant_Natufian
4.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 3.0618% / 0.03061844
42.8 TUR_Barcin_N
23.0 GEO_CHG
19.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.7743% / 0.02774295
44.8 TUR_Barcin_N
28.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.4 GEO_CHG
5.2 Levant_Natufian
5.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.9024% / 0.02902420
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
22.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.8 GEO_CHG
12.8 Levant_Natufian
1.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.9676% / 0.02967612
44.2 TUR_Barcin_N
25.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
20.4 GEO_CHG
7.6 Levant_Natufian
2.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 3.5254% / 0.03525414
47.2 TUR_Barcin_N
27.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.0 GEO_CHG
9.4 Levant_Natufian
1.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 3.3355% / 0.03335537
37.4 TUR_Barcin_N
24.0 GEO_CHG
21.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.2 Levant_Natufian
6.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 3.7427% / 0.03742665
39.8 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.0 GEO_CHG
12.4 Levant_Natufian
2.0 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 3.5494% / 0.03549413
41.0 TUR_Barcin_N
22.8 GEO_CHG
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 Levant_Natufian
5.6 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 3.0279% / 0.03027913
42.6 TUR_Barcin_N
22.6 GEO_CHG
19.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.8 RUS_Catacomb
6.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.7693% / 0.02769287
44.6 TUR_Barcin_N
28.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.2 GEO_CHG
5.4 RUS_Catacomb
5.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.8950% / 0.02894990
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
22.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 GEO_CHG
12.6 Levant_Natufian
1.6 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.9706% / 0.02970621
44.4 TUR_Barcin_N
25.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
20.2 GEO_CHG
7.4 Levant_Natufian
2.2 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 3.5242% / 0.03524243
47.4 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.8 GEO_CHG
9.2 Levant_Natufian
1.4 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 3.2798% / 0.03279786
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
23.4 GEO_CHG
21.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.2 Levant_Natufian
7.8 RUS_Catacomb


Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 3.7516% / 0.03751557
39.8 TUR_Barcin_N
24.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 GEO_CHG
12.6 Levant_Natufian
1.6 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 3.6415% / 0.03641542
41.8 TUR_Barcin_N
24.2 GEO_CHG
21.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 Levant_Natufian
3.6 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 3.1071% / 0.03107085
42.4 TUR_Barcin_N
23.4 GEO_CHG
20.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.6 Yamnaya_UKR
6.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.8243% / 0.02824289
45.0 TUR_Barcin_N
28.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.2 GEO_CHG
5.4 Levant_Natufian
4.0 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.9062% / 0.02906153
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
22.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.0 GEO_CHG
12.8 Levant_Natufian
0.8 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.9697% / 0.02969678
44.4 TUR_Barcin_N
25.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
20.2 GEO_CHG
7.4 Levant_Natufian
2.2 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 3.5244% / 0.03524395
47.2 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.8 GEO_CHG
9.4 Levant_Natufian
1.4 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 3.4052% / 0.03405225
37.4 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 GEO_CHG
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.4 Levant_Natufian
5.8 Yamnaya_UKR



The steppe admixture is very limited and not 15% as you say.The reason also you got a better fit with these refrences is because of the CHG admixture they got.When i use a pure EHG refrence:

Compare the Armenian Chalc/MBA/LBA periods with modern Armenians and estimate their EHG.



Target: ARM_MBA:RISE423
Distance: 4.1480% / 0.04148028
32.2 TUR_Barcin_N
31.0 GEO_CHG
16.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
5.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_MBA:I1656
Distance: 2.6935% / 0.02693497
34.4 GEO_CHG
33.4 TUR_Barcin_N
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
0.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_Lchashen_MBA:DA35
Distance: 3.8529% / 0.03852850
34.0 TUR_Barcin_N
28.4 GEO_CHG
21.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
11.6 RUS_Karelia_HG
4.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_Lchashen_MBA:DA31
Distance: 2.8388% / 0.02838847
28.4 GEO_CHG
28.2 TUR_Barcin_N
22.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 RUS_Karelia_HG
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_LBA:RISE412
Distance: 4.9129% / 0.04912900
38.8 GEO_CHG
22.8 TUR_Barcin_N
13.8 Levant_Natufian
12.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.0 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: ARM_LBA:RISE407
Distance: 2.9036% / 0.02903645
33.4 TUR_Barcin_N
30.6 GEO_CHG
19.2 RUS_Karelia_HG
16.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_LBA:RISE397
Distance: 4.0929% / 0.04092913
39.8 TUR_Barcin_N
23.8 GEO_CHG
23.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.2 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1634
Distance: 3.3788% / 0.03378813
44.2 TUR_Barcin_N
21.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.0 GEO_CHG
13.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
2.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1632
Distance: 2.8500% / 0.02849991
46.4 TUR_Barcin_N
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.6 GEO_CHG
10.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
3.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1631
Distance: 3.9427% / 0.03942699
39.0 TUR_Barcin_N
28.0 GEO_CHG
13.6 RUS_Karelia_HG
12.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1407
Distance: 2.9261% / 0.02926108
46.0 TUR_Barcin_N
27.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.4 GEO_CHG
10.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
1.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 3.7663% / 0.03766271
40.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.6 GEO_CHG
12.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 3.6947% / 0.03694707
42.4 TUR_Barcin_N
26.2 GEO_CHG
21.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 Levant_Natufian
1.0 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 3.3000% / 0.03299961
43.2 TUR_Barcin_N
26.8 GEO_CHG
21.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.2 Levant_Natufian
2.6 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.8962% / 0.02896239
45.6 TUR_Barcin_N
28.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
19.2 GEO_CHG
5.4 Levant_Natufian
1.2 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.9105% / 0.02910507
42.2 TUR_Barcin_N
22.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.4 GEO_CHG
12.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.9998% / 0.02999783
45.0 TUR_Barcin_N
26.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 GEO_CHG
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 3.5367% / 0.03536721
47.6 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.8 GEO_CHG
9.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 3.4916% / 0.03491589
38.0 TUR_Barcin_N
27.6 GEO_CHG
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.2 Levant_Natufian
2.6 RUS_Karelia_HG


Armenians are by far more Levant shifted than Steppe(as you wanted them to be).And nope i don't want to have a discuss with your friends from Apricity.

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 01:40 PM
You were talking about 15% steppe among armenians.



Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 3.7477% / 0.03747720
39.8 TUR_Barcin_N
24.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 GEO_CHG
12.6 Levant_Natufian
1.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 3.5994% / 0.03599424
41.4 TUR_Barcin_N
23.4 GEO_CHG
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 Levant_Natufian
4.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 3.0618% / 0.03061844
42.8 TUR_Barcin_N
23.0 GEO_CHG
19.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.7743% / 0.02774295
44.8 TUR_Barcin_N
28.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.4 GEO_CHG
5.2 Levant_Natufian
5.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.9024% / 0.02902420
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
22.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.8 GEO_CHG
12.8 Levant_Natufian
1.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.9676% / 0.02967612
44.2 TUR_Barcin_N
25.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
20.4 GEO_CHG
7.6 Levant_Natufian
2.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 3.5254% / 0.03525414
47.2 TUR_Barcin_N
27.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.0 GEO_CHG
9.4 Levant_Natufian
1.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 3.3355% / 0.03335537
37.4 TUR_Barcin_N
24.0 GEO_CHG
21.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.2 Levant_Natufian
6.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 3.7427% / 0.03742665
39.8 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.0 GEO_CHG
12.4 Levant_Natufian
2.0 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 3.5494% / 0.03549413
41.0 TUR_Barcin_N
22.8 GEO_CHG
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 Levant_Natufian
5.6 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 3.0279% / 0.03027913
42.6 TUR_Barcin_N
22.6 GEO_CHG
19.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.8 RUS_Catacomb
6.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.7693% / 0.02769287
44.6 TUR_Barcin_N
28.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.2 GEO_CHG
5.4 RUS_Catacomb
5.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.8950% / 0.02894990
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
22.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 GEO_CHG
12.6 Levant_Natufian
1.6 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.9706% / 0.02970621
44.4 TUR_Barcin_N
25.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
20.2 GEO_CHG
7.4 Levant_Natufian
2.2 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 3.5242% / 0.03524243
47.4 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.8 GEO_CHG
9.2 Levant_Natufian
1.4 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 3.2798% / 0.03279786
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
23.4 GEO_CHG
21.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.2 Levant_Natufian
7.8 RUS_Catacomb


Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 3.7516% / 0.03751557
39.8 TUR_Barcin_N
24.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 GEO_CHG
12.6 Levant_Natufian
1.6 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 3.6415% / 0.03641542
41.8 TUR_Barcin_N
24.2 GEO_CHG
21.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 Levant_Natufian
3.6 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 3.1071% / 0.03107085
42.4 TUR_Barcin_N
23.4 GEO_CHG
20.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.6 Yamnaya_UKR
6.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.8243% / 0.02824289
45.0 TUR_Barcin_N
28.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.2 GEO_CHG
5.4 Levant_Natufian
4.0 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.9062% / 0.02906153
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
22.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.0 GEO_CHG
12.8 Levant_Natufian
0.8 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.9697% / 0.02969678
44.4 TUR_Barcin_N
25.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
20.2 GEO_CHG
7.4 Levant_Natufian
2.2 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 3.5244% / 0.03524395
47.2 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.8 GEO_CHG
9.4 Levant_Natufian
1.4 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 3.4052% / 0.03405225
37.4 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 GEO_CHG
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.4 Levant_Natufian
5.8 Yamnaya_UKR



The steppe admixture is very limited and not 15% as you say.The reason also you got a better fit with these refrences is because of the CHG admixture they got.When i use a pure EHG refrence:

Compare the Armenian Chalc/MBA/LBA periods with modern Armenians and estimate their EHG.



Target: ARM_MBA:RISE423
Distance: 4.1480% / 0.04148028
32.2 TUR_Barcin_N
31.0 GEO_CHG
16.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
5.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_MBA:I1656
Distance: 2.6935% / 0.02693497
34.4 GEO_CHG
33.4 TUR_Barcin_N
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
0.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_Lchashen_MBA:DA35
Distance: 3.8529% / 0.03852850
34.0 TUR_Barcin_N
28.4 GEO_CHG
21.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
11.6 RUS_Karelia_HG
4.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_Lchashen_MBA:DA31
Distance: 2.8388% / 0.02838847
28.4 GEO_CHG
28.2 TUR_Barcin_N
22.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 RUS_Karelia_HG
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_LBA:RISE412
Distance: 4.9129% / 0.04912900
38.8 GEO_CHG
22.8 TUR_Barcin_N
13.8 Levant_Natufian
12.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.0 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: ARM_LBA:RISE407
Distance: 2.9036% / 0.02903645
33.4 TUR_Barcin_N
30.6 GEO_CHG
19.2 RUS_Karelia_HG
16.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_LBA:RISE397
Distance: 4.0929% / 0.04092913
39.8 TUR_Barcin_N
23.8 GEO_CHG
23.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.2 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1634
Distance: 3.3788% / 0.03378813
44.2 TUR_Barcin_N
21.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.0 GEO_CHG
13.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
2.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1632
Distance: 2.8500% / 0.02849991
46.4 TUR_Barcin_N
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.6 GEO_CHG
10.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
3.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1631
Distance: 3.9427% / 0.03942699
39.0 TUR_Barcin_N
28.0 GEO_CHG
13.6 RUS_Karelia_HG
12.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1407
Distance: 2.9261% / 0.02926108
46.0 TUR_Barcin_N
27.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.4 GEO_CHG
10.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
1.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 3.7663% / 0.03766271
40.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.6 GEO_CHG
12.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 3.6947% / 0.03694707
42.4 TUR_Barcin_N
26.2 GEO_CHG
21.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.0 Levant_Natufian
1.0 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 3.3000% / 0.03299961
43.2 TUR_Barcin_N
26.8 GEO_CHG
21.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.2 Levant_Natufian
2.6 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.8962% / 0.02896239
45.6 TUR_Barcin_N
28.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
19.2 GEO_CHG
5.4 Levant_Natufian
1.2 RUS_Karelia_HG

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.9105% / 0.02910507
42.2 TUR_Barcin_N
22.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.4 GEO_CHG
12.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.9998% / 0.02999783
45.0 TUR_Barcin_N
26.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 GEO_CHG
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 3.5367% / 0.03536721
47.6 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.8 GEO_CHG
9.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 3.4916% / 0.03491589
38.0 TUR_Barcin_N
27.6 GEO_CHG
21.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.2 Levant_Natufian
2.6 RUS_Karelia_HG


Armenians are by far more Levant shifted than Steppe(as you wanted them to be).And nope i don't want to have a discuss with your friends from Apricity.


You don't want to have a conversation because you simply don't care or want to learn from your errors. Again your fit distances aren't all that good. Try using Vahaduo instead.

Using Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 2.4476% / 0.02447604
36.4 TUR_Barcin_N
18.6 GEO_CHG
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.8 Levant_Natufian
9.6 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 2.9446% / 0.02944622
36.4 TUR_Barcin_N
21.0 GEO_CHG
19.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.2 Levant_Natufian
9.6 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 1.8903% / 0.01890329
38.0 TUR_Barcin_N
20.6 GEO_CHG
18.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.0 Yamnaya_UKR
9.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.2970% / 0.02296955
41.4 TUR_Barcin_N
23.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.2 GEO_CHG
11.2 Yamnaya_UKR
8.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.0223% / 0.02022344
39.0 TUR_Barcin_N
18.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.0 GEO_CHG
15.2 Levant_Natufian
9.0 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.1961% / 0.02196102
39.2 TUR_Barcin_N
23.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.6 GEO_CHG
11.4 Yamnaya_UKR
9.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 2.3915% / 0.02391465
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
22.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.0 Levant_Natufian
12.0 GEO_CHG
10.4 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 2.8205% / 0.02820522
33.0 TUR_Barcin_N
23.8 GEO_CHG
17.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.4 Levant_Natufian
10.4 Yamnaya_UKR

Using Yamnaya_RUS

Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 2.4635% / 0.02463536
37.0 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.6 GEO_CHG
16.6 Levant_Natufian
8.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 2.9372% / 0.02937155
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.6 GEO_CHG
20.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.8 Levant_Natufian
9.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 1.9101% / 0.01910088
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.4 GEO_CHG
18.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.3410% / 0.02340966
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.6 GEO_CHG
9.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.0186% / 0.02018600
39.6 TUR_Barcin_N
19.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.8 GEO_CHG
14.8 Levant_Natufian
8.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.1482% / 0.02148238
39.8 TUR_Barcin_N
23.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.8 GEO_CHG
12.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 2.3720% / 0.02371973
42.6 TUR_Barcin_N
22.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.4 Levant_Natufian
11.4 GEO_CHG
10.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 2.8219% / 0.02821861
33.6 TUR_Barcin_N
23.4 GEO_CHG
18.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.0 Levant_Natufian
10.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Using Afanasievo

Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 2.4161% / 0.02416138
37.0 TUR_Barcin_N
18.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.8 GEO_CHG
16.2 Levant_Natufian
10.2 RUS_Afanasievo

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 2.8391% / 0.02839123
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
19.0 GEO_CHG
13.0 RUS_Afanasievo
12.0 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 1.8226% / 0.01822647
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.8 GEO_CHG
18.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.6 RUS_Afanasievo
8.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 1.9625% / 0.01962546
39.6 TUR_Barcin_N
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.0 GEO_CHG
14.4 Levant_Natufian
10.4 RUS_Afanasievo

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.1640% / 0.02164014
40.0 TUR_Barcin_N
23.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.0 GEO_CHG
11.6 RUS_Afanasievo
8.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 2.3204% / 0.02320393
42.8 TUR_Barcin_N
22.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.0 Levant_Natufian
12.0 RUS_Afanasievo
10.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 2.7099% / 0.02709868
33.6 TUR_Barcin_N
21.8 GEO_CHG
16.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.2 Levant_Natufian
13.6 RUS_Afanasievo

Using Catacomb

Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 2.4180% / 0.02417961
37.0 TUR_Barcin_N
19.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.6 GEO_CHG
16.0 Levant_Natufian
10.4 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 2.8172% / 0.02817188
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.2 GEO_CHG
14.2 RUS_Catacomb
11.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 1.8114% / 0.01811402
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 GEO_CHG
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.2 RUS_Catacomb
8.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.2328% / 0.02232843
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 GEO_CHG
12.6 RUS_Catacomb
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 1.9585% / 0.01958482
39.4 TUR_Barcin_N
18.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.8 GEO_CHG
14.4 Levant_Natufian
10.6 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.1983% / 0.02198271
39.8 TUR_Barcin_N
24.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.2 GEO_CHG
10.8 RUS_Catacomb
9.0 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 2.3271% / 0.02327100
42.6 TUR_Barcin_N
22.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.2 RUS_Catacomb
12.0 Levant_Natufian
10.4 GEO_CHG

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 2.6854% / 0.02685366
33.4 TUR_Barcin_N
21.0 GEO_CHG
17.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.6 RUS_Catacomb
14.0 Levant_Natufian

Notice how the fit distances noticeably improve when compared to your runs? That's because the source for steppe in Armenians is likely from Catacomb as stated by multiple other users before. You keep bringing up how Catacomb has some CHG for your counterarguments when KareliaHG isn't even half steppe but a different source from more widely accepted steppe proxies. Again, you are proving nothing by using Karelia_HG. Also, almost any component you use has some sort of other stuff masked underneath to some degree whether it is Barcin, Iran_N CHG or whatever else you can think of. As you can see, I get the best fits when using Afanasievo and Catacomb for my runs which indicate that these are better sources to gauge steppe admixture in Armenians. And based off of what I'm seeing they average roughly 13% steppe or so which isn't surprising considering the number of R haplotypes. With all due respect, you are absolutely crazy if you think that most of it is masked CHG especially when I already added CHG for my runs. If most of that is CHG, then CHG would drastically increase when you remove Afanasievo or Catacomb but IT OBVIOUSLY DOES NOT CHANGE THE AMOUNT OF CHG THEY SCORE. This suggests that Catacomb or Afanasievo barely masks any CHG, if at all. It's not hard to grasp my friend.

The fact of the matter is Armenians do have some steppe admixture. It's nowhere near enough to plot 'em in Lithuania lol but the point is that they do have some which is to be expected. You don't have a population of up to 40% R haplotypes and not expect to have some steppe. That's bordering on idiocy if I'm honest with you.

StillWater
06-01-2020, 01:59 PM
No idea. What I'm say is the "Armenian_East/West" references were compiled by me. He must've updated this to the custom K15 on Vahaduo.

This is very important. If the procedure isn't the same, then why can you compare the two?

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 02:09 PM
This is very important. If the procedure isn't the same, then why can you compare the two?

The custom averages for East and West are not the default reference samples that you see on K15. They are custom references compiled which I ommited academic samples from and only used real names. The user Lukasz added it on Vahaduo. You can see the traditional default K15 as well as other default Gedmatch calcs. Then you have your custom and updated gedmatch calcs.

Johnny ola
06-01-2020, 02:11 PM
You don't want to have a conversation because you simply don't care or want to learn from your errors. Again your fit distances aren't all that good. Try using Vahaduo instead.

Using Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 2.4476% / 0.02447604
36.4 TUR_Barcin_N
18.6 GEO_CHG
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.8 Levant_Natufian
9.6 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 2.9446% / 0.02944622
36.4 TUR_Barcin_N
21.0 GEO_CHG
19.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.2 Levant_Natufian
9.6 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 1.8903% / 0.01890329
38.0 TUR_Barcin_N
20.6 GEO_CHG
18.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.0 Yamnaya_UKR
9.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.2970% / 0.02296955
41.4 TUR_Barcin_N
23.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.2 GEO_CHG
11.2 Yamnaya_UKR
8.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.0223% / 0.02022344
39.0 TUR_Barcin_N
18.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.0 GEO_CHG
15.2 Levant_Natufian
9.0 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.1961% / 0.02196102
39.2 TUR_Barcin_N
23.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.6 GEO_CHG
11.4 Yamnaya_UKR
9.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 2.3915% / 0.02391465
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
22.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.0 Levant_Natufian
12.0 GEO_CHG
10.4 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 2.8205% / 0.02820522
33.0 TUR_Barcin_N
23.8 GEO_CHG
17.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.4 Levant_Natufian
10.4 Yamnaya_UKR

Using Yamnaya_RUS

Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 2.4635% / 0.02463536
37.0 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.6 GEO_CHG
16.6 Levant_Natufian
8.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 2.9372% / 0.02937155
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.6 GEO_CHG
20.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.8 Levant_Natufian
9.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 1.9101% / 0.01910088
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.4 GEO_CHG
18.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.3410% / 0.02340966
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.6 GEO_CHG
9.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 2.0186% / 0.02018600
39.6 TUR_Barcin_N
19.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.8 GEO_CHG
14.8 Levant_Natufian
8.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.1482% / 0.02148238
39.8 TUR_Barcin_N
23.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.8 GEO_CHG
12.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 2.3720% / 0.02371973
42.6 TUR_Barcin_N
22.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.4 Levant_Natufian
11.4 GEO_CHG
10.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 2.8219% / 0.02821861
33.6 TUR_Barcin_N
23.4 GEO_CHG
18.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.0 Levant_Natufian
10.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Using Afanasievo

Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 2.4161% / 0.02416138
37.0 TUR_Barcin_N
18.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.8 GEO_CHG
16.2 Levant_Natufian
10.2 RUS_Afanasievo

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 2.8391% / 0.02839123
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
19.0 GEO_CHG
13.0 RUS_Afanasievo
12.0 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 1.8226% / 0.01822647
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.8 GEO_CHG
18.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.6 RUS_Afanasievo
8.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 1.9625% / 0.01962546
39.6 TUR_Barcin_N
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.0 GEO_CHG
14.4 Levant_Natufian
10.4 RUS_Afanasievo

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.1640% / 0.02164014
40.0 TUR_Barcin_N
23.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.0 GEO_CHG
11.6 RUS_Afanasievo
8.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 2.3204% / 0.02320393
42.8 TUR_Barcin_N
22.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.0 Levant_Natufian
12.0 RUS_Afanasievo
10.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 2.7099% / 0.02709868
33.6 TUR_Barcin_N
21.8 GEO_CHG
16.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.2 Levant_Natufian
13.6 RUS_Afanasievo

Using Catacomb

Target: Armenian:GS000035125
Distance: 2.4180% / 0.02417961
37.0 TUR_Barcin_N
19.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.6 GEO_CHG
16.0 Levant_Natufian
10.4 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:GS000035124
Distance: 2.8172% / 0.02817188
36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.2 GEO_CHG
14.2 RUS_Catacomb
11.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:GS000013745
Distance: 1.8114% / 0.01811402
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 GEO_CHG
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.2 RUS_Catacomb
8.2 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia86
Distance: 2.2328% / 0.02232843
42.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 GEO_CHG
12.6 RUS_Catacomb
7.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia279
Distance: 1.9585% / 0.01958482
39.4 TUR_Barcin_N
18.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.8 GEO_CHG
14.4 Levant_Natufian
10.6 RUS_Catacomb

Target: Armenian:armenia176
Distance: 2.1983% / 0.02198271
39.8 TUR_Barcin_N
24.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.2 GEO_CHG
10.8 RUS_Catacomb
9.0 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian:armenia139
Distance: 2.3271% / 0.02327100
42.6 TUR_Barcin_N
22.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.2 RUS_Catacomb
12.0 Levant_Natufian
10.4 GEO_CHG

Target: Armenian:armenia102
Distance: 2.6854% / 0.02685366
33.4 TUR_Barcin_N
21.0 GEO_CHG
17.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.6 RUS_Catacomb
14.0 Levant_Natufian

Notice how the fit distances noticeably improve when compared to your runs? That's because the source for steppe in Armenians is likely from Catacomb as stated by multiple other users before. You keep bringing up how Catacomb has some CHG for your counterarguments when KareliaHG isn't even half steppe but a different source from more widely accepted steppe proxies. Again, you are proving nothing by using Karelia_HG. Also, almost any component you use has some sort of other stuff masked underneath to some degree whether it is Barcin, Iran_N CHG or whatever else you can think of. As you can see, I get the best fits when using Afanasievo and Catacomb for my runs which indicate that these are better sources to gauge steppe admixture in Armenians. And based off of what I'm seeing they average roughly 13% steppe or so which isn't surprising considering the number of R haplotypes. With all due respect, you are absolutely crazy if you think that most of it is masked CHG especially when I already added CHG for my runs. If most of that is CHG, then CHG would drastically increase when you remove Afanasievo or Catacomb but IT OBVIOUSLY DOES NOT CHANGE THE AMOUNT OF CHG THEY SCORE. This suggests that Catacomb or Afanasievo barely masks any CHG, if at all. It's not hard to grasp my friend.

The fact of the matter is Armenians do have some steppe admixture. It's nowhere near enough to plot 'em in Lithuania lol but the point is that they do have some which is to be expected. You don't have a population of up to 40% R haplotypes and not expect to have some steppe. That's bordering on idiocy if I'm honest with you.

Your models have nothing crazy to show. Still not 15% steppe admixed as you mention first. It is obvious that the Levant component is quite real(higher than EHG) and that's the reason why Armenians genetically coming closer to Assyrians and Georgian Jews instead Georgians or Akzabians. Also the Chalcolithic, MBA, LBA Armenian samples showing clearly a good amount of EHG shift. I am not going to continue.. I think most people here will agree with me that Modern Armenians genetically shifting to Levant. The averages on G25 showing it clearly as well.

dosas
06-01-2020, 02:15 PM
You don't want to have a conversation because you simply don't care or want to learn from your errors. Again your fit distances aren't all that good. Try using Vahaduo instead.


Are these scaled or un-scaled you are using?

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 02:21 PM
Are these scaled or un-scaled you are using?

Vahaduo uses unscaled coordinates.

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 02:28 PM
Your models have nothing crazy to show. Still not 15% steppe admixed as you mention first. It is obvious that the Levant component is quite real(higher than EHG) and that's the reason why Armenians genetically coming closer to Assyrians and Georgian Jews instead Georgians or Akzabians. Also the Chalcolithic, MBA, LBA Armenian samples showing clearly a good amount of EHG shift. I am not going to continue.. I think most people here will agree with me that Modern Armenians genetically shifting to Levant. The averages on G25 showing it clearly as well.


Target: Armenian
Distance: 1.8368% / 0.01836812
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.6 GEO_CHG
12.6 RUS_Catacomb
11.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian
Distance: 1.9264% / 0.01926422
38.2 TUR_Barcin_N
20.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.2 GEO_CHG
12.6 Levant_Natufian
10.6 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian
Distance: 1.9272% / 0.01927212
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.0 GEO_CHG
12.2 Levant_Natufian
10.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian
Distance: 1.8429% / 0.01842886
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.0 GEO_CHG
12.2 RUS_Afanasievo
11.8 Levant_Natufian

It isn't 15% you're right. It's between 12-13%. Armenians come closer to Georgian Jews compared to Western Georgians yes. That isn't surprising. But I still don't understand why you use these two sets of populations as templates while completely and blatantly ignoring Trabzonians, Kurds, Azeris and various Turks considering that these are the populations that are closest to Armenians(to eastern ones at least). Are we going to pretend that they don't exist at all? EHG isn't the same as steppe sources as I mentioned to you earlier. I never denied the Levant component being present in Armenians. It's normal for us as it is for Turks, South Europeans and various other groups. You're not shocking or surprising anyone here with that. What I am denying is how you are grossly overstating Levantine affinities of Armenians when Armenian Levantine affinities are hardly different than that of many neighboring ethnic groups. Some amount of Levant-like affinity is to be expected but you're making it seem like Armenians are the 12th lost tribe of Israel lol. And no, Levantine-like affinity is hardly more relevant than steppe-like affinity in Armenians. Either way, both components pale in comparison to the more important CHG/Iran_N and EEF ancestry so it doesn't really make a difference.

dosas
06-01-2020, 02:28 PM
Vahaduo uses unscaled coordinates.

You can also use scaled co-ordinates on that website. Your unscaled models show better fits, but are 'overfitted'.

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 02:30 PM
You can also use scaled co-ordinates on that website. Your unscaled models show better fits, but are 'overfitted'.

How are they overfitted? The fit distances seem to be very good, certainly much better than what Johnny has been able to produce thus far.

dosas
06-01-2020, 02:34 PM
How are they overfitted? The fit distances seem to be very good, certainly much better than what Johnny has been able to produce thus far.

It's an old argument, scaled vs unscaled, which I am not going to get into. The consensus is that using scaled data is more appropriate due to consistency among platforms.

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 02:36 PM
It's an old argument, scaled vs unscaled, which I am going to get into. The consensus is that using scaled data is more appropriate due to consistency among platforms.

How different would the changes be using scaled vs unscaled?

dosas
06-01-2020, 02:38 PM
How different would the changes be using scaled vs unscaled?

Ι think Johnny's models are using scaled co-ordinates, but I can't check because I am on the phone.

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 02:39 PM
Ι think Johnny's models are using scaled co-ordinates, but I can't check because I am on the phone.

I think he may have been using G25. But does it matter if his is scaled when his fit distances aren't as good as the fit distances on my runs?

dosas
06-01-2020, 02:48 PM
I think he may have been using G25. But does it matter if his is scaled when his fit distances aren't as good as the fit distances on my runs?

I must have misunderstood you, I was talking about G25 and its Vahaduo iteration. I don't think anything else other than what Generallisimo controls in his G25 database is to be taken seriously, all the other enthusiast 'custom' calculators have contributions from users with no credentials and questionable motives. But that's just me, you are entirely free to choose what you think is appropriate.

Johnny ola
06-01-2020, 02:49 PM
Target: Armenian
Distance: 1.8368% / 0.01836812
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.6 GEO_CHG
12.6 RUS_Catacomb
11.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Armenian
Distance: 1.9264% / 0.01926422
38.2 TUR_Barcin_N
20.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.2 GEO_CHG
12.6 Levant_Natufian
10.6 Yamnaya_UKR

Target: Armenian
Distance: 1.9272% / 0.01927212
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.0 GEO_CHG
12.2 Levant_Natufian
10.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: Armenian
Distance: 1.8429% / 0.01842886
38.8 TUR_Barcin_N
20.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.0 GEO_CHG
12.2 RUS_Afanasievo
11.8 Levant_Natufian

It isn't 15% you're right. It's between 12-13%. Armenians come closer to Georgian Jews compared to Western Georgians yes. That isn't surprising. But I still don't understand why you use these two sets of populations as templates while completely and blatantly ignoring Trabzonians, Kurds, Azeris and various Turks considering that these are the populations that are closest to Armenians(to eastern ones at least). Are we going to pretend that they don't exist at all? EHG isn't the same as steppe sources as I mentioned to you earlier. I never denied the Levant component being present in Armenians. It's normal for us as it is for Turks, South Europeans and various other groups. You're not shocking or surprising anyone here with that. What I am denying is how you are grossly overstating Levantine affinities of Armenians when Armenian Levantine affinities are hardly different than that of many neighboring ethnic groups. Some amount of Levant-like affinity is to be expected but you're making it seem like Armenians are the 12th lost tribe of Israel lol. And no, Levantine-like affinity is hardly more relevant than steppe-like affinity in Armenians. Either way, both components pale in comparison to the more important CHG/Iran_N and EEF ancestry so it doesn't really make a difference.

Trabzon people have also an east med/Levant shift.Tuks from Eastern Anatolia are actually islamicized Armenians.
The rest like Kurdish Jews, Georgian Jews, Iranian Jews, Iraqi Jews, Assyrians create their own spectrum(Mesopotamian). Armenians are between Caucasus and the Levant that's why they fall in the middle. I never mention Armenians do not have steppe. I said they do not have the same amounts like the Armenian C, MBA, LBA periods. Assyrians are a similar situation like Armenians. They also show a steppe/EHG shift.

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 02:51 PM
I must have misunderstood you, I was talking about G25 and its Vahaduo iteration. I don't think anything else other than what Generallisimo controls in his G25 database is to be taken seriously, all the other enthusiast 'custom' calculators have contributions from users with no credentials and questionable motives. But that's just me, you are entirely free to choose what you think is appropriate.

I use the Vahaduo iteration of G25. I grab the coordinates from the G25 dataset on Davidski's Eurogenes blogspot page. I find it to be faster and easier to use than G25, and I paid Poi $19 for level 3 access on G25 a while ago lol.

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 03:01 PM
Trabzon people have also an east med/Levant shift.Tuks from Eastern Anatolia are actually islamicized Armenians.
The rest like Kurdish Jews, Georgian Jews, Iranian Jews, Iraqi Jews, Assyrians create their own spectrum(Mesopotamian). Armenians are between Caucasus and the Levant that's why they fall in the middle. I never mention Armenians do not have steppe. I said they do not have the same amounts like the Armenian C, MBA, LBA periods. Assyrians are a similar situation like Armenians. They also show a steppe/EHG shift.

Correction: Trabzonians and Armenians have a Barcin/Anatolian shift, not a Levantine shift. That's the big difference between us and Caucasians....not 10% more Levantine admixture.

Also, Kurdish, Iranian, and Iraqi Jews are distant to Trabzonians and Armenians. The difference between Assyrians/Geo Jews is that they have steppe affinity and a CHG shift which the other 3 Jewish groups do not have. That's why they plot further north relative to the aformentioned 3 Jewish groups.

Also, I disagree with Armenians falling between the Caucasus and the Levant because Armenians show higher genetic affinity to Laz and Azeri_Dagestan than to any Levantine group. You also have to remember that Levantines vary genetically as well as Caucasians. We are closer to certain Levantines like say Syrians vs Chechens. But we are also closer to certain Caucasians than to certains Levantines as well.

I would say Armenians fall into the Trabzon/Eastern Turkey/South Caucasus cluster between the Caucasus(Georgia) and Mesopotamia.

Also, YES modern day Armenians don't have as much steppe as Armenia BA. Nor did I ever make such a ridiculous claim. My argument from the start was that Armenians do indeed score steppe admix. Not exactly 15% but more like 10-15% which isn't surprising given our haplotypes, origins, and our region. Hell, Kurds and Iranians have more of it than we do but that still doesn't make them plot in Lithuania or something lol.

StillWater
06-01-2020, 03:08 PM
The custom averages for East and West are not the default reference samples that you see on K15. They are custom references compiled which I ommited academic samples from and only used real names. The user Lukasz added it on Vahaduo. You can see the traditional default K15 as well as other default Gedmatch calcs. Then you have your custom and updated gedmatch calcs.

Your sample set->Gedmatch->average of your "real people" sample->copied to Vahaduo k15 nmonte

vs

Study->G25 ->Vahaduo

Is that correct?

Michalis Moriopoulos
06-01-2020, 03:13 PM
The fact of the matter is Armenians do have some steppe admixture. It's nowhere near enough to plot 'em in Lithuania lol but the point is that they do have some which is to be expected. You don't have a population of up to 40% R haplotypes and not expect to have some steppe. That's bordering on idiocy if I'm honest with you.

Tell that to the Hausa.

I would expect some variation in Armenians given how wide a territory they inhabited in the past. But it's incumbent on you to prove that there's something wrong with the academic samples. How are they not "real people"? The scientists didn't just conjure those results out of thin air. A few outliers are to be expected (we see this in the Cypriots, too) but that doesn't mean the rest are unrepresentative. Outdated K15 results aren't going to cut it here. Convince some "real" Armenians to send you their genotype info so you can get their G25 coordinates from David (when he reopens his store).

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 03:18 PM
Your sample set->Gedmatch->average of your "real people" sample->copied to Vahaduo k15 nmonte

vs

Study->G25 ->Vahaduo

Is that correct?

Pretty much. Initially, the user Harut1994 updated my references to the R program. Later, it was included in Vahaduo.

The study used the academic samples from Gedmatch that was later updated to G25 and Vahaduo. Here are the kits for most of them.

M108907(Armenia102)
M196981(armenia139)
M867697(Armenia176)
M314781(Armenia279)
M738335(armenia86)

Run these on K15 if you'd like.

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 03:23 PM
Tell that to the Hausa.

I would expect some variation in Armenians given how wide a territory they inhabited in the past. But it's incumbent on you to prove that there's something wrong with the academic samples. How are they not "real people"? The scientists didn't just conjure those results out of thin air. A few outliers are to be expected (we see this in the Cypriots, too) but that doesn't mean the rest are unrepresentative. Outdated K15 results aren't going to cut it here. Convince some "real" Armenians to send you their genotype info so you can get their G25 coordinates from David (when he reopens his store).

They don't score like real individuals at all. That's the problem. This isn't simply a one-off or a couple of outlying kits. There are noticeable discrepancies regarding their averages. It doesn't matter which Gedmatch calc you use, the paradigms are there for anyone to see. The problem is that I do not possess their coordinates to illustrate my POV using Vahaduo. I simply can't at this point hence why I initially used K15 to prove that they are indeed different as far as academic samples are concerned.

Ruderico
06-01-2020, 03:45 PM
It's an old argument, scaled vs unscaled, which I am not going to get into. The consensus is that using scaled data is more appropriate due to consistency among platforms.

There's actually no consensus at all*, but overfitting is an issue with the algorithms used create models (nMonte, Vahaduo), not the PCA (G25)

*no professionals actual scale PCA data, but they don't use it for models either

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 03:52 PM
There's actually no consensus at all*, but overfitting is an issue with the algorithms used create models (nMonte, Vahaduo), not the PCA (G25)

*no professionals actual scale PCA data, but they don't use it for models either

Were my runs overfitted?

StillWater
06-01-2020, 04:05 PM
Pretty much.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 04:12 PM
You're comparing apples and oranges.

Certainly not for my K15 runs. They are a direct apples to apples comparison. The patterns were similar when comparing results using other Gedmatch calculators as well.

You don't think the same will apply to G25/Vahaduo either?

Ruderico
06-01-2020, 04:37 PM
Were my runs overfitted?

I'm not familiar with the samples/populations you used so I cannot comment on that, but if two references are relatively close to each other you may end up giving you an overfitted model. That's why models should not have a lot of references, whether you use G25 data or its "scaled" version.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Overfitting.svg/1200px-Overfitting.svg.png

This happens a lot with models for modern Europeans when using pre-modern (LBA, IA, Medieval) references because of how close they are to each other, for example.


That said there is no added value in using K15 over G25.

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 04:47 PM
I'm not familiar with the samples/populations you used so I cannot comment on that, but if two references are relatively close to each other you may end up giving you an overfitted model. That's why models should not have a lot of references, whether you use G25 data or its "scaled" version.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Overfitting.svg/1200px-Overfitting.svg.png

This happens a lot with models for modern Europeans when using pre-modern (LBA, IA, Medieval) references because of how close they are to each other, for example.


That said there is no added value in using K15 over G25.

Makes sense. But if the fit distances on my runs are around 2.0 give or take a few tenths, then that should be considered a good fit, no?

StillWater
06-01-2020, 04:52 PM
Certainly not for my K15 runs. They are a direct apples to apples comparison. The patterns were similar when comparing results using other Gedmatch calculators as well.

You don't think the same will apply to G25/Vahaduo either?

Until both are either transferred to Gedmatch or G25 first, you can't begin to compare.

NarLFC
06-01-2020, 05:21 PM
Until both are either transferred to Gedmatch or G25 first, you can't begin to compare.

I did compare real names to academic samples using Eurogenes K15 and various other calcs on Gedmatch for that matter. That's what I'm telling you.

The problem is that I can't compare the available academic samples on Vahaduo G25 to people is because I unfortunately don't have any coordinates for this. Maybe I'll do a DNA test and get a few people on board with this.

dosas
06-01-2020, 05:53 PM
There's actually no consensus at all*, but overfitting is an issue with the algorithms used create models (nMonte, Vahaduo), not the PCA (G25)

*no professionals actual scale PCA data, but they don't use it for models either

David himself told me that scaled is preferred due to consistency among platforms, when I asked him.

:noidea:

StillWater
06-01-2020, 07:03 PM
I did compare real names to academic samples using Eurogenes K15 and various other calcs on Gedmatch for that matter. That's what I'm telling you.

The problem is that I can't compare the available academic samples on Vahaduo G25 to people is because I unfortunately don't have any coordinates for this. Maybe I'll do a DNA test and get a few people on board with this.

So, both Armenian study samples and the "real names" samples were uploaded to Gedmatch?

Alkaevli
06-01-2020, 07:12 PM
Many GEDmatch admixture calculators suffer from the calculator effect, which causes a considerable difference between individuals using them and population averages formed by academic samples. Global25 doesn't have such an issue though, it's the best non-academic tool currently IMO.

Back then, when admixture calculators were still popular, I used to collect GEDmatch kits from various ethnicities of Anatolia and its surroundings in order to fix the calculator effect issue. Here are the averages of some Transcaucasian and Mesopotamian populations (no calculator effect):
https://abload.de/img/111dskf8.png


Individuals:
https://abload.de/img/222cuk1u.png


Dodecad K12b Armenian averages on Vahaduo:
https://abload.de/img/3331nkoc.png

DMXX
06-02-2020, 01:00 AM
This is one of several examples of where, as a community, the collective perception of a given topic is unduly coloured by formative experiences with the preliminary and/or rudimentary data that were available to us in the 2005-2015 period.

I've been a spectator (or active interlocutor) to these discussions for most of that period, so forgive me for this unsourced narration regarding why there is resistance to the notion that Armenians don't have a significant (>10%) proportion of P-C steppe-mediated admixture.

The earliest uniparental studies (I have Weale et al. 2001 in mind) on the Armenians showed what we'd expect in a fairly opaque sense (they broadly clustered with other W. Asians). Later papers demonstrated that Armenians, on the Y-line, were typified by the "quintessentially W. Asian" combination of E1b1b1, G(1+2), J2a, J1(xe in peri-2010 ISOGG nomenclature) and R1b-L23, which was also observed in all populations from central Anatolia through to Iran and south towards Iraq. Later data, such as from Peter Hrechdakian's FTDNA Armenian DNA Project, broadly supported that observation.

By the early 10's, auDNA results from multiple Armenian and Assyrian individuals from the consumer testing circuit began popping up on forums. A similarity between them was readily observed. Further, the uniparental profiles were also broadly similar (per above). Folks began to assume a near-complete convergence in origins based on these factors, which were reinforced by anthropological considerations (e.g. irregular intermarriage between these two minority groups, partially facilitated by their Christian backgrounds).

The inference that the two populations were almost synonymous with one another from a genetic perspective was seemingly cemented by 2012-14, when ADMIXTURE calculators reined supreme, and the two populations certainly did appear closer with respect to the scores they'd generated. Here, we observed what Alkaevli's table perfectly demonstrates - Armenians generally appeared midway on a pan-component cline between Georgians and Assyrians, with most component scores tending towards the Assyrian end of that axis. Their "N. European" related ADMIXTURE proportions were also significantly below what was observed in groups like non-Trabzon Turks or Iranians across practically all calculators.

Although this general line of argument (an iteration of "Assyrians/Armenians are language-shifted Armenians/Assyrians" or "Assyrians and Armenians are 90+% Urarto-Hurrian-derived and that's it") seemed convincing at the time, one piece of evidence (which was curiously ignored by most, with the notable exception of former colleague and esteemed contributor 'Humanist') impeded me from accepting these hypotheses. Specifically, the surprisingly lacklustre IBD segment sharing between Assyrians and Armenians, which falls quite short of what we can observe from other known related groups in the region (f.ex. numerous Iranian ethnicities and populations that are now described as Kurdish).

In the sciences, especially when a multi-disciplinarian perspective is employed, it is crucial to validate hypotheses, control for bias and critically appraise discordant data if one of your evidence streams doesn't align with the rest. This appraisal wasn't generally taken up by the community at large, where a seeming majority seemed to implicitly accept earlier conventions without re-appraising old data in the face of new, or back-testing old ideas with new material.

In retrospect, there were always two problems with the general popular argument up to circa 2014:
1) Despite the high degree of uniparental profile overlap between W. Asian populations, there are significant differences in frequency. Additionally, there are significant differences in the types of subclades seen beyond the stereotypical W. Asian combination (f.ex. Armenians were, from memory, an unusual local hotbed for Y-DNA I2; Iranians and Kurds are broadly the most Y-DNA R1a-M17 containing para-ethnic groups; Y-DNA Q frequencies in the Republic of Azerbaijan and W. Iran, etc.). Discounting these differences in favour of a fixation on the commonality undercuts the very point of establishing contrasts between groups (I personally suspect that some observers were/are so preoccupied by the ADMIXTURE outputs of old that they instinctively looked for the common rather than the differences when it came to the Armenians)
2) ADMIXTURE's design (modal component formation based on allele frequency) makes ancestral signals "bleed into each other" in regions with a longstanding history of demographic settlement or mixing. Ergo, Armenians being 3-6% "N. European" on average in Dodecad K12b doesn't indicate much about the actual degree of admixture from a N. European-like population (in this case, MLBA steppe groups, or EMBA to a lesser degree).

Davidski inferred that the Chalcolithic Armenians were approximately 15% EMBA steppe-derived per qpAdm (link (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/11/steppe-ancestry-in-chalcolithic.html)). Although this finding isn't necessarily replicated in G25 (see spoiler), the formal test overrides the informal, and his outputs are statistically acceptable (chisq isn't ideal but the model can't be rejected). Further, the paper which presented the Chalcolithic Armenian samples performed a similar "elemental" run and detected significant EHG-related admixture among them. This should serve as a case study insofar as how discordant the formal and informal assessment methods can go. The proportion of EMBA steppe admixture in prehistoric Armenians only increases in the Bronze Age (per Davidski (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/02/catacomb-armeniamlba.html)).

In summary, given the aDNA evidence, the proposition against the longstanding narrative in the community does have legs to it, particularly if one were to consider the significant amount of pre-existing steppe-related admixture in the South Caucasus. The apparent evidence against this proposition is based on bad data (ADMIXTURE outputs). Conventions aren't always conventions for good reason.

The only means of definitively determining a robust estimate of the MLBA steppe estimate range* of modern Armenians would be via qpAdm - We should be well past the citation of ADMIXTURE calculators in 2020.

* IMHO, based on the linguistic data, I've always been impartial to an MLBA rather than an EMBA introduction for proto-Armenian into the Armenian heartland from a Balkan route. Bulgaria_MLBA, the ~1700 B.C. sample that tested R1a1a-Z93, might have been a relic of that hypothetical migration. I don't think the EMBA steppe admixture in the S. Caucasus is related. Just my speculation.




Target: AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
Distance: 4.8052% / 0.04805245 | ADC: 0.25x
41.8 TUR_Boncuklu_N
28.0 GEO_CHG
16.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.4 Levant_Natufian
0.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3

Target: ARM_Areni_C
Distance: 4.6851% / 0.04685084 | ADC: 0.25x
47.0 TUR_Boncuklu_N
26.6 GEO_CHG
13.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
6.8 RUS_AfontovaGora3
5.8 Levant_Natufian

Target: AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
Distance: 6.5216% / 0.06521643 | ADC: 0.25x
44.6 TUR_Boncuklu_N
36.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
11.2 Levant_Natufian
7.8 GEO_CHG
0.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3

Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
Distance: 4.3815% / 0.04381470 | ADC: 0.25x
43.6 GEO_CHG
32.4 TUR_Boncuklu_N
18.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.4 Levant_Natufian
0.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3

Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
Distance: 4.2985% / 0.04298489 | ADC: 0.25x
46.0 GEO_CHG
32.0 TUR_Boncuklu_N
17.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
5.0 Levant_Natufian
0.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3

Target: Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
Distance: 4.3769% / 0.04376915 | ADC: 0.25x
37.8 TUR_Boncuklu_N
37.6 GEO_CHG
21.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
3.6 Levant_Natufian
0.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3

Arame
06-03-2020, 10:34 AM
I tried Vahaduo. Scaled average pops.
I choosed as little Chl/EBA pops as possible to avoid overfitting.

So here what I got. I added a BMAC sample because Iranian input is usually forgotten in many such a calculations.

Target: Armenian
Distance: 0.9959% / 0.00995870
58.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
27.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
9.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA
1.8 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
0.0 Levant_JOR_EBA
0.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

Target: Georgian_Imer
Distance: 2.2659% / 0.02265948
65.6 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
17.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
9.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
7.4 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
0.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
0.0 Levant_JOR_EBA
0.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA

Target: Assyrian
Distance: 1.0783% / 0.01078317
40.4 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
19.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
14.2 TKM_Gonur1_BA
13.0 Levant_JOR_EBA
6.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
0.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.2707% / 0.01270670
29.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA
22.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
20.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
13.4 Levant_JOR_EBA
11.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.4 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
1.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
0.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En



And here we are. Populations that were looking similar in old good ADMIXtures and 2D PCA's are quite different. Armenians have Steppe. Georgians do not have. Assyrians have Jordan EBA ( which is why they are Semites) and BMAC. While Kurds have a lot off BMAC. So Assyrians are quite different from Armenians and they have more Iranian ancestry. But the most surprising is why Armenians do not score Jordan EBA?

Arame
06-03-2020, 10:57 AM
So now I decided replace Jordan EBA with Eblaite samples.

Target: Armenian
Distance: 0.9936% / 0.00993607
55.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
24.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
9.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA
3.8 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
3.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
0.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin

Target: Georgian_Imer
Distance: 2.2659% / 0.02265948
65.6 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
17.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
9.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
7.4 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
0.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
0.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA

Target: Assyrian
Distance: 1.0356% / 0.01035580
37.4 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
27.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
14.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
13.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA
7.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
0.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
0.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.3173% / 0.01317297
34.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
28.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA
12.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
12.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
0.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
0.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA

Now huge surprise. Assyrians score high amount of Eblaite ancestry while Armenians few. So why I can't reproduce that East Med in Armenia from old tools? The answer is in Arslantepe that is the most important pop in Armenian. It already hss in some Levantine affinity which makes us believe that Armenians have a lot ancestry from Syria.

DMXX
06-03-2020, 11:02 AM
But the most surprising is why Armenians do not score Jordan EBA?

I don't find it surprising at all, to be honest.

It'd be surprising if a S. Caucasian population did have significant admixture from the BA Levant.

In keeping with my previous post, I think a lot of people have a habit of "carrying on" prior positions without contextualising the new evidence.

Populations like Armenians, Iranians, Assyrians and Kurds do score significant Levant_N-related admixture in Neolithic-focused runs, but that never implied that all three pops derived such ancestry from the same intermediary sources.

Here, we see a very robust stratification between these groups, with Armenians exclusively obtaining their Levant_N admixture from BA East Anatolian and South Caucasian sources. Which, clearly, indicates that Armenians don't have any significant input from any populations that were rich in Levant_N beyond the Bronze Age.

It's also no coincidence that the only Semitic-speaking population listed in your runs (the Assyrians) have quite a bit of Levant_EBA, although I am somewhat surprised by the amount observed in your Kurdish average.
I highly doubt that Iranian Kurds north of Kermanshah (e.g. Kurmanjis) or Turkish Kurds have that much (running each separately and then Iranian Azeris through your setup would be informative for comparative purposes).
Iraqi Kurds are a different kettle of fish altogether. Their entire modern territory (https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia% 2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F9%2F94%2FIraqi_Kurdistan_in_Ir aq_%2528de-facto_and_disputed_hatched%2529.svg%2F1200px-Iraqi_Kurdistan_in_Iraq_%2528de-facto_and_disputed_hatched%2529.svg.png&f=1&nofb=1) lies within the traditional range of the East Semitic language family (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages#/media/File:Semitic_languages.svg). So, it's no stretch to infer that Iraqi Kurds do have some substantial cryptic ancestry from nomadic pastoralist groups who'd spoken dialects related to Akkadian.

If the above line of reasoning is correct, I'd infer that your Kurdish average is rich in Iraqi Kurds.



Now huge surprise. Assyrians score high amount of Eblaite ancestry while Armenians few. So why I can't reproduce that East Med in Armenia from old tools?


That "East Med" basically represented what we now recognise as Anatolia_N and Levant_N, only as a localised drifted variant based on modern pop allele frequencies.

DMXX
06-03-2020, 11:10 AM
Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.3173% / 0.01317297
34.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
28.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA
12.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
12.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
0.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
0.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA


I don't know much about the Ebla_EMBA datapoint, but ~34% EMBA W. Syrian admix in NW Iranian-related pops is pretty strange.

Arame
06-03-2020, 11:23 AM
DMXX

I used usual Kurdish average from G25. I don't know how much Iraqi Kurds are there. I added Seh Gebi chl to see if something change. No. Added Sintashta and it replaced Yamna as expected. But Ebla is still there.

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.2631% / 0.01263050
35.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
28.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA
12.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
10.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
8.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
2.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
0.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
0.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA

PS. As for Armenian origin I will answer later.

DMXX
06-03-2020, 11:26 AM
I've done a quick elemental run on Ebla EMBA:



[
{
"sample": "Ebla EMBA:Average",
"distance": 5.6501,
"Boncuklu_N": 47.5,
"Ganj_Dareh_N": 28,
"Levant_Natufian": 24.5
}


It's more Iran_N and Anatolia_N than it is Levant_N. Heck, it's only 1/4 Levant_N.

Levant EBA on the other hand:



[
{
"sample": "Levant JOR EBA:Average",
"distance": 5.5071,
"Levant_Natufian": 52,
"Boncuklu_N": 28.5,
"Ganj_Dareh_N": 19.5
}
]


Levant_EBA is a much better choice in this context.

Helves
06-03-2020, 11:46 AM
I've done a quick elemental run on Ebla EMBA:



[
{
"sample": "Ebla EMBA:Average",
"distance": 5.6501,
"Boncuklu_N": 47.5,
"Ganj_Dareh_N": 28,
"Levant_Natufian": 24.5
}


It's more Iran_N and Anatolia_N than it is Levant_N. Heck, it's only 1/4 Levant_N.

Levant EBA on the other hand:



[
{
"sample": "Levant JOR EBA:Average",
"distance": 5.5071,
"Levant_Natufian": 52,
"Boncuklu_N": 28.5,
"Ganj_Dareh_N": 19.5
}
]


Levant_EBA is a much better choice in this context.

You forgot CHG

Target: SYR_Ebla_EMBA
Distance: 4.0672% / 0.04067213
43.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.0 Levant_Natufian
20.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.0 GEO_CHG

If Kurds and other West Iranic people have actual Semitic admix then Eblaites make the best candidate for that kind of ancestry imo since they likely represent the first Semitic migrants to Mesopotamia.

DMXX
06-03-2020, 11:59 AM
You forgot CHG

Target: SYR_Ebla_EMBA
Distance: 4.0672% / 0.04067213
43.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.0 Levant_Natufian
20.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.0 GEO_CHG

If Kurds and other West Iranic people have actual Semitic admix then Eblaites make the best candidate for that kind of ancestry imo since they likely represent the first Semitic migrants to Mesopotamia.

I'd think that'd be sensible for Iraqi Kurds (Kurmanji and Sorani, Yazidis inclusive) and Lurs (though a stretch; Arabian nomads are a more likely candidate for them), but for all other NW Iranian-related groups , such as all Turkish Kurds, Iranian Kurmanji Kurds from around Urmia, Azeris... I don't think that's plausible, given the absence in overlap in territory.

A distinction needs to be made between the "exterior"/lowland Zagros and "interior"/highland Zagros Iranic-speaking/derived pops in the region. The Eblaites' territory was almost exclusively lowland, from what I'm seeing via a search engine check.

pegasus
06-03-2020, 12:07 PM
I don't know much about the Ebla_EMBA datapoint, but ~34% EMBA W. Syrian admix in NW Iranian-related pops is pretty strange.

Ebla is like 70% Iran Chl like, they work really well with the Iranian groups, but its very likely because we don't have much BA genomes from Western Iran and shared ancestry is skewing the picture.


Though the Iranian Zoroastrian result was interesting they seem to have a much more Central Asian/Eastern Iranian shift.


Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 0.5523% / 0.00552300
40.8 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
40.2 TKM_Gonur1_BA
17.8 KAZ_Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA
1.2 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C

Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 0.5517% / 0.00551677
41.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA
41.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
17.6 KAZ_Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA

Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 0.4720% / 0.00471998
43.4 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA
37.8 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
18.8 KAZ_Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA



The other Iranians preferred Seh Gabi but a composite Steppe population on the TKM IA cline would help distinguish BMAC ancestry vs Plateau Iranian ancestry.

Helves
06-03-2020, 12:18 PM
I'd think that'd be sensible for Iraqi Kurds (Kurmanji and Sorani, Yazidis inclusive) and Lurs (though a stretch; Arabian nomads are a more likely candidate for them), but for all other NW Iranian-related groups (all Turkish Kurds), Iranian Kurmanji Kurds from around Urmia, Azeris... I don't think that's plausible, given the absence in overlap in territory.

A distinction needs to be made between the "exterior"/lowland Zagros and "interior"/highland Zagros Iranic-speaking/derived pops in the region. The Eblaites' territory was almost exclusively lowland, from what I'm seeing via a search engine check.

I do think that pre-Indo-Iranian samples from Western Iran are gonna turn up to be significantly more Levan_N shifted than the Seh Gabi genomes we have atm. So I agree I donít necessarily believe this shifts is from Akkadians or other Semites except for maybe in some Iraqi Kurds and Yazedis.

DMXX
06-03-2020, 12:47 PM
I do think that pre-Indo-Iranian samples from Western Iran are gonna turn up to be significantly more Levan_N shifted than the Seh Gabi genomes we have atm. So I agree I don’t necessarily believe this shifts is from Akkadians or other Semites except for maybe in some Iraqi Kurds and Yazedis.

I'm in agreement with this.

You might remember this thread of mine, which explored the topic. (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16054-Surplus-Levant_N-in-Iranians-and-Kurds-An-Analysis)

Per the analysis in the Harappan paper (Shinde et al.), some of the W. Iranian agriculturalists were almost 60% Anatolia_N (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gGCc7wOoeE0/XXFSMrotZuI/AAAAAAAAIMQ/JCU0ObJ25v0ZOwq15MC45eSChN8Pu6_-ACLcBGAs/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/Harappan_genome_graphical_abstract.jpg) (they considered it equivalent to Levant_N, a convention that was introduced by Narasimhan et al.).

Seh Gabi IIRC is around 35% Anatolia/Levant_N from memory, so yes, we have every reason to suspect that an inherently higher Levant_N score in modern W. Iranians is derived from preceding agriculturalists who happened to be rich in that type of ancestry (rather than a relic of an unrecorded mass settlement by various Semitic-speaking groups).

I do consider it likely that some locales in modern Iran do actually have residual ancestry from the Akkadians*, but we'd need plenty of aDNA from numerous locations and timeframes to cleanly read between the lines.

* If genetic evidence of Roman settlement in Britain lingers, or Y-DNA traces of the Mongols is observed in W Asia... For there to not be any trace of them in Iran would be exceptionally unusual.

Johnny ola
06-03-2020, 12:52 PM
Its obvious That Pre-Iranic speakers in Northwestern Iran(west Azer) and (Lorestan) provrinces(Gutian, Kassite, Elamite, Mananeans) and other Zagros tribes were heavily Iran Chalc admixed.(Unlike in the very eastern Iranic provrinces with Iran N playing alone.)And as we know well, Iran C is a very mixed period, witch contains components like Anatolia N, Iran N, CHG and a desent amount % of Levant N admixture. Thought we lack BA samples from Northwest Iran, with only exception one sample(if i am not mistaken) witch seems to be heavily steppe/EHG admixed. Some people have mention a Gutian ancestry but I am not sure about it. In general Levantines share pretty much the same components with Northwestern Iranians, thought is Very well known that Iran C influenced the Levant. The big mystery here is how cultures like Hassuna, Ubaid, Halaf, Samarra, Uruk period looked like. If we solve the Mesopotamian 'mystery'complex we are going to have a clear image about near east genes. Northwestern Pre-Iranics have influenced Babylonia and Mesopotamia in general.Kassites,Elam,Gutians played they role during the periods. That's the reason also IMO why Assyrians have an Iranic shift.Besides their Semitic roots they received as well a Zagros Tribal admixture and a Hurrian/Mittani influence Witch explains their Steppe/EHG relation.

RCO
06-03-2020, 01:24 PM
Just observe ancient Armenian and Iranian J1 branches. The key of J1 P58 and L136 Southern expansion was the previous ancestral Northern locations of parallel J1 FGC6064 and ZS6599 because they were branches that mostly remained in their original areas in the Iranian Plateau and Eastern Anatolian plateau, with limits in the Upper Tigris and Upper Euphrates when a Southern branch leading to L136 and P58 with new technologies and economy broke through or invaded the former Natufian_like and Northern Levantine Neolithic frontier during the process of transition from Neolithic to Chalcolithic in the Middle East and became Semitized and expanded their Southern branches with the new language just like R1b-M269 in Europe and R1a-M417 in South Asia became Indo-Europeanized and expanded in the Bronze Age in new frontiers.

ThaYamamoto
06-03-2020, 04:18 PM
Just to interject, modern Persians are quite closely related to other MENA populations i.e. NW-Semites ? I remember reading quite a while ago that Abraham's line can be traced to modern Iran, as opposed to Iraq as his tribe/lineage were apparently transplants from east of the Euphrates.

pegasus
06-03-2020, 04:20 PM
I do think that pre-Indo-Iranian samples from Western Iran are gonna turn up to be significantly more Levan_N shifted than the Seh Gabi genomes we have atm. So I agree I donít necessarily believe this shifts is from Akkadians or other Semites except for maybe in some Iraqi Kurds and Yazedis.

I agree with this, pre Indo Iranian Western Iran looks to be much more shifted to the Levant than it would be today, a combination of population movements from Central Asia and Eastern Iran driven by Yaz Indo Iranians seems to have to led to Iran_N and EHG increasing in tandem. The Iran/Mehrjoo paper from last year suggests gene flow from the CIC/Western Iranian cluster to PG Islanders and Sistanis/Baloch but it was opposite in the LBA.


[
{
"sample": "Hajji Firuz C:Average",
"distance": 2.489,
"Ganj_Dareh_N": 30.5,
"Barcin_N": 25.5,
"Levant_PPNB": 24,
"GEO_CHG": 20,
"RUS_AfontovaGora3": 0
}


"sample": "Hasanlu IA:Average",
"distance": 3.0865,
"Ganj_Dareh_N": 36,
"Barcin_N": 26,
"Levant_PPNB": 18,
"GEO_CHG": 15,
"RUS_AfontovaGora3": 5
]

DMXX
06-03-2020, 04:37 PM
^ Similar pattern with modern populations from nearby (Turkic-speaking Azeris, Talysh).

Over time, NW Iranians became more Barcin_N, EHG and Iran_N rich (due to MLBA steppe and BMAC admix), with a gradual depreciation in Levant_N related admixture.

Alkaevli
06-03-2020, 08:10 PM
DMXX

I used usual Kurdish average from G25. I don't know how much Iraqi Kurds are there. I added Seh Gebi chl to see if something change. No. Added Sintashta and it replaced Yamna as expected. But Ebla is still there.

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.2631% / 0.01263050
35.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
28.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA
12.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
10.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
8.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
2.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
0.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
0.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA

PS. As for Armenian origin I will answer later.

That's probably what people call overfitting. Hajji_Firuz_C or a closely-related population must be the largest layer in Kurdish autosomal DNA in my opinion. A good chunk of the Hajji_Firuz_C-related ancestry is probably replaced by the unbalanced combination of BMAC and Ebla in your model.

StarDS9
06-03-2020, 09:53 PM
I am pretty sure that the Kurdish on G25 is mostly all Kurds from Turkey and probably mix of Kurmanji and Zaza. Far as know there are no Sorani and Gorani on G25.

If you look at Mori_yek and Ezidi they represent more early Kurmanji speakers as the G25 Kurdish has some Anatolian/Armenian mixture.

I suspect Sorani from Iraq will be more Iranian like with some Assyrian mixture. Kurds from iran like Laks and faylis will be similar to Lors.

-Edit-

On Genoplot it says Kurdish from Iraq, I suspect they are Kurmanji samples.

Arame
06-04-2020, 10:00 AM
Alkaevli

Overfitting is usually a situation when You have too much similar source populations. Which create an overfit. Here it is not the case.
This type of a imbalances usually occur when an important population is missing.

In Iranians case it could be for example a Chaff face ware period sample prior KA. Or a Khabur ware sample from MBA. Those cultures are related to North Mesopotamia.

In this particular case an addition of East Asian pop from Mongolia changes the proportions.

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.1347% / 0.01134660
27.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
22.6 TKM_Gonur1_BA
11.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
10.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
9.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
8.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
6.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
2.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.4 MNG_Hovsgol_BA
0.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
0.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

And here what happens when Azerbaijan LC is added. I didn't check it but it must be a Chaff faced eare period.

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.0278% / 0.01027815
26.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA
23.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
12.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
11.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
8.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
8.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
4.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
3.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.6 MNG_Hovsgol_BA
0.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
0.0 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
0.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

StarDS9
06-04-2020, 10:36 AM
Mine and other iranian groups comes out like this using your population. I get the highest Hajji_Firuz_C

SampleFitHajji Firuz CGonur1 BASintashta MLBAEbla EMBAKura-Araxes ARM TalinArslantepe EBAHovsgol BAYamnaya RUS SamaraSeh Gabi CKaman-Kalehoyuk MLBADarkveti-Meshoko EnAGUsers►StarDS92.32144315.5129744320.50
Azeri►Average1.187228.511.510.515.510.5362.5750
Iranian Lor►Average0.955826.520.59.516.5012.51193.50
Ezid►Average1.058721.51711.521.51.522413.55.50
Kurdish►Average1.102219.518.510.517.58713.511.530
Iranian Fars►Average1.2095152510.5181.544.53.51710
Iranian Zoroastrian►Average1.262611.525.512.5172624.51720
Iranian Mazandarani►Average1.06991139.58.511.54.53.51.5117 0.51.5


SampleFitHajji Firuz CGonur1 BASintashta MLBAKura-Araxes ARM TalinEbla EMBAHovsgol BAKaman-Kalehoyuk MLBAYamnaya RUS SamaraSeh Gabi CArslantepe EBADarkveti-Meshoko EnCaucasus lowlands LCAGUsers►StarDS92.40045016.512.56.55.53.52.520.50 .500
Azeri►Average1.439931.510.58.57.5165.5558101.5
Iranian Lor►Average0.855128.5218.5018.52.52.5214.50.501. 5
Ezid►Average1.016114.517134192.55.52.513.5404.5
Iranian Fars►Average1.085132512.5017.540.52.520.5301.5
Kurdish►Average0.9815111810.51018.51.53.531360.54. 5
Iranian Mazandarani►Average1.034410.538.56.55.510.51.51.52 .5202.500.5
Iranian Zoroastrian►Average1.20179.52513315.5224176.502.5

Arame
06-04-2020, 10:45 AM
Concerning that MLBA sample from Bulgaria. R1a Z93.
He doesn't look to be a relic guy. He was just a recent intruder who didn't have time to mix with locales. He was almost certainly from Srubna culture that expanded in Steppe after Multi Cordoned Ware culture. After 1800 BC.

I don't think Proto Armenians descend from Srubna yet alone the Graeco-Armenian clade.

It is quite possible that Armenian language do not directly descend from those MBA migrants in SC but the presence of I2c2 in LBA elite burial in Armenia suggests that there could be another migration that occured prior 1200 bc. R1b L277 also could have come with that I2c2. The source of this other migration could be the Multi Cordoned Ware culture.
I am just waiting for new data. But one thing now is certain. There is no evidence of Early IA migration from Balkanes to Armenia. Really nothing.

Here is the distance for Bulgaria MLBA.

Distance to: BGR_MLBA:I2163
0.00000000 BGR_MLBA
0.02487299 TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA
0.02628758 KAZ_Shoendykol_MLBA_Fedorovo
0.02703619 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA
0.02725201 KAZ_Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA
0.02777665 UZB_Kokcha_BA
0.02778784 KAZ_Chanchar_LBA
0.02896848 Corded_Ware_CZE
0.02920583 KAZ_Kyzlbulak_MLBA1
0.02933186 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
0.02969127 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.03010304 UZB_Kashkarchi_BA
0.03018809 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.03084280 KAZ_Karagash_MLBA
0.03249156 KAZ_Bylkyldak_MLBA
0.03319319 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
0.03385430 CHE_LN_steppe
0.03405548 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
0.03580851 KAZ_Kairan_MLBA
0.03646981 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
0.03664790 KAZ_Taldysay_MLBA1
0.03670650 Corded_Ware_DEU
0.03716108 RUS_Poltavka_o
0.03928369 RUS_Potapovka_MLBA
0.03961069 KAZ_Georgievsky_LBA

Arame
06-04-2020, 10:49 AM
Mine and other iranian groups comes out like this using your population. I get the highest Hajji_Firuz_C

SampleFitHajji Firuz CGonur1 BASintashta MLBAEbla EMBAKura-Araxes ARM TalinArslantepe EBAHovsgol BAYamnaya RUS SamaraSeh Gabi CKaman-Kalehoyuk MLBADarkveti-Meshoko EnAGUsers►StarDS92.32144315.5129744320.50
Azeri►Average1.187228.511.510.515.510.5362.5750
Iranian Lor►Average0.955826.520.59.516.5012.51193.50
Ezid►Average1.058721.51711.521.51.522413.55.50
Kurdish►Average1.102219.518.510.517.58713.511.530
Iranian Fars►Average1.2095152510.5181.544.53.51710
Iranian Zoroastrian►Average1.262611.525.512.5172624.51720
Iranian Mazandarani►Average1.06991139.58.511.54.53.51.5117 0.51.5


SampleFitHajji Firuz CGonur1 BASintashta MLBAKura-Araxes ARM TalinEbla EMBAHovsgol BAKaman-Kalehoyuk MLBAYamnaya RUS SamaraSeh Gabi CArslantepe EBADarkveti-Meshoko EnCaucasus lowlands LCAGUsers►StarDS92.40045016.512.56.55.53.52.520.50 .500
Azeri►Average1.439931.510.58.57.5165.5558101.5
Iranian Lor►Average0.855128.5218.5018.52.52.5214.50.501. 5
Ezid►Average1.016114.517134192.55.52.513.5404.5
Iranian Fars►Average1.085132512.5017.540.52.520.5301.5
Kurdish►Average0.9815111810.51018.51.53.531360.54. 5
Iranian Mazandarani►Average1.034410.538.56.55.510.51.51.52 .5202.500.5
Iranian Zoroastrian►Average1.20179.52513315.5224176.502.5

You use scaled or unscaled data? I guess it is done with Vahaduo?

StarDS9
06-04-2020, 10:52 AM
I use Genoplot which is Poi new version of G25 run. I use the defulat scaled.

Arame
06-04-2020, 10:58 AM
I use Genoplot which is Poi new version of G25 run. I use the defulat scaled.

Ok. Thanks. So it seems POI and Vahaduo had different algorithms for calculating distances. This is quite annoying.

NarLFC
06-04-2020, 11:03 AM
Ok. Thanks. So it seems POI and Vahaduo had different algorithms for calculating distances. This is quite annoying.

And I still have a tough time deciding which is "superior".

DMXX
06-05-2020, 07:58 AM
Here's a solid Late Chalcolithic-Early Bronze Age period setup for both Armenians and Assyrians using GenoPlot (https://genoplot.com/g25) (as it's a continuation of poi's nMonte runner, I'm assuming the algorithm is the same).



[
{
"sample": "Armenian:Average",
"distance": 1.6626,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 67.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 18,
"RUS_Catacomb": 10.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 4
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Average",
"distance": 2.4997,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 60,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 14.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 11,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 14.5
}


In sum, Armenians can be reliably modeled as ~85% E. Anatolian-S. Caucasian ChL-EBA and ~11% EMBA steppe.
The unusual EHG-AG3-related admix that apparently preceded the Armenian Bronze Age (as typified by Armenia_ChL sample Areni-1) is likely accounted for by the Caucasus_Lowlands datapoint.
So, I'd tentatively assert that Armenians are ~11% EMBA/~16% MLBA steppe, which is only a couple %age points less than the Kurmanji Kurdish (non-Yazidi) and Azeri averages, and is a touch higher than the average seen in Iranian Lurs.

The above also corroborates Arame's modelling - Significant differences in the source of Anatolia/Levant_N-rich admix is seen between Armenians and Assyrians. The majority of that admix in Armenians is typified by the SE Turkish EBA datapoint, whereas it's an even split in Assyrians. Levant_EBA in this context is a catch-all indicator for Semitic-related admix in Assyrians.

The overall difference in component scores here is 30% - This is substantially larger than what was inferred via ADMIXTURE many years ago (as highlighted by Alkaevli's post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20497-split-Armenians-Origins-amp-Steppe-Admix&p=671992&viewfull=1#post671992), the % difference was ~13%).
Ergo, with informal modelling that contains aDNA and not modern pop-modal allele frequency data, Armenians and Assyrians should no longer be considered "variants" of one another. It's analogous to claiming that Brits and Spaniards are "the same".

Regarding the similar Catacomb scores in those averages... Assyrian sample #160 (from Iran) looks highly atypical (they have the lowest Levant_EBA, highest Catacomb and highest Turkey_EBA). Further, this individual has an unusually close GD to modern NW Iranian-related pops (alongside Hasanlu_IA) in comparison to other Assyrians. Therefore, this sample looks like they have substantial ancestry from a NW Iranian-type population (Iranian Azeri or Iranian Kurmanji Kurdish most likely).

I haven't investigated the others high EMBA steppe Assyrians (see full list below), but the range (6-~17%) for Catacomb admix is wider than the Armenian one (8-15%), which further raises the likelihood of cryptic admixture from populations with higher steppe admix (such as Turks, Iranians and Kurdish pops) among them.

Either way, in conclusion:
1) Armenians and Assyrians should not be considered synonymous with one another,
2) Armenians do not have "low" (defined arbitrarily by me as <5%) EMBA steppe admix relative to neighbouring pops (they're within range for W. Asia),
3) There's reason to suspect that some of our Assyrian samples in G25 carry cryptic admixture from relatively steppe-rich neighbouring pops, skewing the averages

Of course, all of this remains to be corroborated by formal stats.

[Edit]: Disclaimer: I have no bias either way on the topic (am neither Armenian nor am I Assyrian, and have a neutral-to-positive personal feeling towards both). Just following the data.




[
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian165",
"distance": 3.7099,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 80.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 8,
"RUS_Catacomb": 6,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 5.5
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian151",
"distance": 3.391,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 76.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 10.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 9,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 4
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian163",
"distance": 2.532,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 71,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 10,
"RUS_Catacomb": 11,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 8
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian161",
"distance": 3.2944,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 69,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 8.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 9,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 13.5
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian159",
"distance": 3.4342,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 58,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 26,
"RUS_Catacomb": 9,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 7
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian152",
"distance": 3.7542,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 56.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 14.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 12.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 16.5
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian153",
"distance": 2.9162,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 56,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 15,
"RUS_Catacomb": 13,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 16
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian155",
"distance": 3.5091,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 55.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 21,
"RUS_Catacomb": 10.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 13
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian160",
"distance": 3.4073,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 52,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 0.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 16.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 31
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian162",
"distance": 3.6384,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 51,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 21,
"RUS_Catacomb": 12.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 15.5
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian164",
"distance": 2.9565,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 36,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 26,
"RUS_Catacomb": 14.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 23.5
}
]

NarLFC
06-05-2020, 08:13 AM
Here's a solid Late Chalcolithic-Early Bronze Age period setup for both Armenians and Assyrians using GenoPlot (https://genoplot.com/g25) (as it's a continuation of poi's nMonte runner, I'm assuming the algorithm is the same).



[
{
"sample": "Armenian:Average",
"distance": 1.6626,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 67.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 18,
"RUS_Catacomb": 10.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 4
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Average",
"distance": 2.4997,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 60,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 14.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 11,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 14.5
}


In sum, Armenians can be reliably modeled as ~85% E. Anatolian-S. Caucasian ChL-EBA and ~11% EMBA steppe.
The unusual EHG-AG3-related admix that apparently preceded the Armenian Bronze Age (as typified by Armenia_ChL sample Areni-1) is likely accounted for by the Caucasus_Lowlands datapoint.
So, I'd tentatively assert that Armenians are ~11% EMBA/~16% MLBA steppe, which is only a couple %age points less than the Kurmanji Kurdish (non-Yazidi) and Azeri averages, and is a touch higher than the average seen in Iranian Lurs.

The above also corroborates Arame's modelling - Significant differences in the source of Anatolia/Levant_N-rich admix is seen between Armenians and Assyrians. The majority of that admix in Armenians is typified by the SE Turkish EBA datapoint, whereas it's an even split in Assyrians. Levant_EBA in this context is a catch-all indicator for Semitic-related admix in Assyrians.

The overall difference in component scores here is 30% - This is substantially larger than what was inferred via ADMIXTURE many years ago (as highlighted by Alkaevli's post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20497-split-Armenians-Origins-amp-Steppe-Admix&p=671992&viewfull=1#post671992), the % difference was ~13%).
Ergo, with informal modelling that contains aDNA and not modern pop-modal allele frequency data, Armenians and Assyrians should no longer be considered "variants" of one another. It's analogous to claiming that Brits and Spaniards are "the same".

Regarding the similar Catacomb scores in those averages... Assyrian sample #160 (from Iran) looks highly atypical (they have the lowest Levant_EBA, highest Catacomb and highest Turkey_EBA). Further, this individual has an unusually close GD to modern NW Iranian-related pops (alongside Hasanlu_IA) in comparison to other Assyrians. Therefore, this sample looks like they have substantial ancestry from a NW Iranian-type population (Iranian Azeri or Iranian Kurmanji Kurdish most likely).

I haven't investigated the others high EMBA steppe Assyrians (see full list below), but the range (6-~17%) for Catacomb admix is wider than the Armenian one (8-15%), which further raises the likelihood of cryptic admixture from populations with higher steppe admix (such as Turks, Iranians and Kurdish pops) among them.

Either way, in conclusion:
1) Armenians and Assyrians should not be considered synonymous with one another,
2) Armenians do not have "low" (defined arbitrarily by me as <5%) EMBA steppe admix relative to neighbouring pops (they're within range for W. Asia),
3) There's reason to suspect that some of our Assyrian samples in G25 carry cryptic admixture from relatively steppe-rich neighbouring pops, skewing the averages

Of course, all of this remains to be corroborated by formal stats.




[
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian165",
"distance": 3.7099,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 80.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 8,
"RUS_Catacomb": 6,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 5.5
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian151",
"distance": 3.391,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 76.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 10.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 9,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 4
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian163",
"distance": 2.532,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 71,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 10,
"RUS_Catacomb": 11,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 8
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian161",
"distance": 3.2944,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 69,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 8.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 9,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 13.5
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian159",
"distance": 3.4342,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 58,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 26,
"RUS_Catacomb": 9,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 7
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian152",
"distance": 3.7542,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 56.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 14.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 12.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 16.5
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian153",
"distance": 2.9162,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 56,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 15,
"RUS_Catacomb": 13,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 16
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian155",
"distance": 3.5091,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 55.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 21,
"RUS_Catacomb": 10.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 13
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian160",
"distance": 3.4073,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 52,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 0.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 16.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 31
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian162",
"distance": 3.6384,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 51,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 21,
"RUS_Catacomb": 12.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 15.5
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian164",
"distance": 2.9565,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 36,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 26,
"RUS_Catacomb": 14.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 23.5
}
]



Excellent post. The fit distances are great for your runs. I wonder how the averages of both populations would look like once you remove a few visible outliers from both sets.

Helves
06-05-2020, 03:30 PM
Here's a solid Late Chalcolithic-Early Bronze Age period setup for both Armenians and Assyrians using GenoPlot (https://genoplot.com/g25) (as it's a continuation of poi's nMonte runner, I'm assuming the algorithm is the same).



[
{
"sample": "Armenian:Average",
"distance": 1.6626,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 67.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 18,
"RUS_Catacomb": 10.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 4
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Average",
"distance": 2.4997,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 60,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 14.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 11,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 14.5
}


In sum, Armenians can be reliably modeled as ~85% E. Anatolian-S. Caucasian ChL-EBA and ~11% EMBA steppe.
The unusual EHG-AG3-related admix that apparently preceded the Armenian Bronze Age (as typified by Armenia_ChL sample Areni-1) is likely accounted for by the Caucasus_Lowlands datapoint.
So, I'd tentatively assert that Armenians are ~11% EMBA/~16% MLBA steppe, which is only a couple %age points less than the Kurmanji Kurdish (non-Yazidi) and Azeri averages, and is a touch higher than the average seen in Iranian Lurs.

The above also corroborates Arame's modelling - Significant differences in the source of Anatolia/Levant_N-rich admix is seen between Armenians and Assyrians. The majority of that admix in Armenians is typified by the SE Turkish EBA datapoint, whereas it's an even split in Assyrians. Levant_EBA in this context is a catch-all indicator for Semitic-related admix in Assyrians.

The overall difference in component scores here is 30% - This is substantially larger than what was inferred via ADMIXTURE many years ago (as highlighted by Alkaevli's post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20497-split-Armenians-Origins-amp-Steppe-Admix&p=671992&viewfull=1#post671992), the % difference was ~13%).
Ergo, with informal modelling that contains aDNA and not modern pop-modal allele frequency data, Armenians and Assyrians should no longer be considered "variants" of one another. It's analogous to claiming that Brits and Spaniards are "the same".

Regarding the similar Catacomb scores in those averages... Assyrian sample #160 (from Iran) looks highly atypical (they have the lowest Levant_EBA, highest Catacomb and highest Turkey_EBA). Further, this individual has an unusually close GD to modern NW Iranian-related pops (alongside Hasanlu_IA) in comparison to other Assyrians. Therefore, this sample looks like they have substantial ancestry from a NW Iranian-type population (Iranian Azeri or Iranian Kurmanji Kurdish most likely).

I haven't investigated the others high EMBA steppe Assyrians (see full list below), but the range (6-~17%) for Catacomb admix is wider than the Armenian one (8-15%), which further raises the likelihood of cryptic admixture from populations with higher steppe admix (such as Turks, Iranians and Kurdish pops) among them.

Either way, in conclusion:
1) Armenians and Assyrians should not be considered synonymous with one another,
2) Armenians do not have "low" (defined arbitrarily by me as <5%) EMBA steppe admix relative to neighbouring pops (they're within range for W. Asia),
3) There's reason to suspect that some of our Assyrian samples in G25 carry cryptic admixture from relatively steppe-rich neighbouring pops, skewing the averages

Of course, all of this remains to be corroborated by formal stats.

[Edit]: Disclaimer: I have no bias either way on the topic (am neither Armenian nor am I Assyrian, and have a neutral-to-positive personal feeling towards both). Just following the data.




[
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian165",
"distance": 3.7099,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 80.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 8,
"RUS_Catacomb": 6,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 5.5
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian151",
"distance": 3.391,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 76.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 10.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 9,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 4
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian163",
"distance": 2.532,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 71,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 10,
"RUS_Catacomb": 11,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 8
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian161",
"distance": 3.2944,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 69,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 8.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 9,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 13.5
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian159",
"distance": 3.4342,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 58,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 26,
"RUS_Catacomb": 9,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 7
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian152",
"distance": 3.7542,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 56.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 14.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 12.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 16.5
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian153",
"distance": 2.9162,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 56,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 15,
"RUS_Catacomb": 13,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 16
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian155",
"distance": 3.5091,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 55.5,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 21,
"RUS_Catacomb": 10.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 13
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian160",
"distance": 3.4073,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 52,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 0.5,
"RUS_Catacomb": 16.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 31
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian162",
"distance": 3.6384,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 51,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 21,
"RUS_Catacomb": 12.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 15.5
},
{
"sample": "Assyrian:Assyrian164",
"distance": 2.9565,
"Caucasus_lowlands_LN": 36,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 26,
"RUS_Catacomb": 14.5,
"Titris_Hoyuk_EBA": 23.5
}
]



Steppe ancestry throughout West Asia seems to have been overlooked. I would say all ethnic groups surrounding us score more Steppe, the Syrian average that David has as an example scores 14% Catacomb in a similar run I made to yours. From what I've seen on Gedmatch, Iraqi Arabs should score a significant amount aswell, probably not far off the Syrian average.
There seems two be two or three outliers in the Assyrian average, though they are slight outliers imo and they are more likely Armenian mixed since they score very high Anatolia-related(Assyrian:160 and 161).
I think your run is fine for Armenians but not a good one for Assyrians tbh. The single most important sample for us atm in Davids spreadsheet is Syr_Ebla_EMBA since they likely represent how pre-Sargonic Akkadians looked like.

Going back to the subject of this thread I have to say I agree with NarLFC that the Armenians probably are more Steppe shifted than the Academic(?) averages show. My opinion is based off the numerous Armenian samples I've collected on Gedmatch, both Western and Eastern Armenians. And before people start, yes Gedmatch is outdated and I dislike using it now that we have a much better tool but there's no denying that there are certain components in the various calculators that correlate quite well with elevated Steppe ancestry. Especially in West Asia where say components labled "Baltic", "North Sea", "North European" etc most certainly indicate Steppe admixture and nothing else. From what I've seen most Armenians kits I run through they score higher of these Northern components than the average in the spreadsheets.
This is just my opinion though, but I do think it will be validated when more Armenians acquire PCA 25 coordinates.

Helves
06-05-2020, 11:51 PM
But Assyrian:160 get slightly better fits with Kurdish than Armenian? And if you combine the two, it still scores 40% Kurdish. (I tried Genoplot)

What's genoplot? Some simple runs with Vahaudo clearly shows Assyrian:160 is shifted towards Caucasus/Anatolia ie, Armeninan.

Target: Assyrian:Assyrian160
Distance: 3.5685% / 0.03568497
41.4 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
19.6 GEO_CHG
6.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.0 Levant_Natufian

Target: Assyrian
Distance: 3.4668% / 0.03466837
39.2 TUR_Barcin_N
27.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.8 GEO_CHG
12.8 Levant_Natufian
3.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Kurds score significantly less CHG and Anatolia_N than both us and Armenians.

Johnny ola
06-06-2020, 12:42 AM
What's genoplot? Some simple runs with Vahaudo clearly shows Assyrian:160 is shifted towards Caucasus/Anatolia ie, Armeninan.

Target: Assyrian:Assyrian160
Distance: 3.5685% / 0.03568497
41.4 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
19.6 GEO_CHG
6.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.0 Levant_Natufian

Target: Assyrian
Distance: 3.4668% / 0.03466837
39.2 TUR_Barcin_N
27.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
16.8 GEO_CHG
12.8 Levant_Natufian
3.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Kurds score significantly less CHG and Anatolia_N than both us and Armenians.



Its obvious that Assyrians have assilimated other ethnic groups during the periods.They have come in contact with hurrians(mittani),Hittites,Jews etc.Their decent % of ANF/CHG/Steppe ancestry is because of their expansion to southeastern anatolia conquering and assimilating ethnic groups richer in ANF/CHG admixture.

DMXX
06-06-2020, 04:31 PM
Where exactly are those Assyrians from? Do we have any information about since when they lived there? Assyrian160 seem to be really exotic:


I suspect these are Assyrian coordinates from the ancestry testing market (e.g. 23andMe customers) rather than academic samples.

Assyrian160 does seem to be partly NW Iranian-related. The probability that they're fully Assyrian, yet are among the most EHG/EMBA steppe-shifted, the most CHG-shifted and the least Levant_N-admixed by chance, is 0.1% (based on this n=10 cohort).



Btw this is out of topic but is there any EHG ancestry in Barcin_N? Because Using Tepecik_ciftlik_N increases EHG in Armenians and Assyrians? otherwise its allmost 0 for armenians and assyrians:


Not EHG, but WHG. Barcin_N is about 20% WHG.

I don't know what the prevailing ideas or current data is concerning this, but several years ago, the idea of WHG existing on one end of an axis of HG's (with "ANE" on the other) gained some traction. Per that scheme, EHG was considered an intermediary between WHG and a derivative of ANE.

Applying that information to your question - The WHG in Barcin_N is sucking up some of the EHG-related/derived admix in the aforementioned groups.

This is why it's important to use archaeologically relevant samples to one's modelling. We don't really have much basis to infer that a Barcin_N population (from W. Anatolia) specifically contributed to the intermediaries that eventually contributed to modern Assyrians and Armenians.

IMO, TC_N or Boncoklu_N are more appropriate choices geographically-speaking.

You'll have to treat this information as a possible anachronism from me until someone who's more up to date with the current data can clarify where we currently are.

DMXX
06-06-2020, 07:29 PM
Admin comment:

The (very interesting) OT about the Yazidis and possible Mitanni ancestry has been moved to a separate thread. (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20589-split-Yazidis-amp-co-A-Mitanni-Signal&p=673538#post673538)

NarLFC
06-07-2020, 03:43 AM
I suspect these are Assyrian coordinates from the ancestry testing market (e.g. 23andMe customers) rather than academic samples.

Assyrian160 does seem to be partly NW Iranian-related. The probability that they're fully Assyrian, yet are among the most EHG/EMBA steppe-shifted, the most CHG-shifted and the least Levant_N-admixed by chance, is 0.1% (based on this n=10 cohort).



Not EHG, but WHG. Barcin_N is about 20% WHG.

I don't know what the prevailing ideas or current data is concerning this, but several years ago, the idea of WHG existing on one end of an axis of HG's (with "ANE" on the other) gained some traction. Per that scheme, EHG was considered an intermediary between WHG and a derivative of ANE.

Applying that information to your question - The WHG in Barcin_N is sucking up some of the EHG-related/derived admix in the aforementioned groups.

This is why it's important to use archaeologically relevant samples to one's modelling. We don't really have much basis to infer that a Barcin_N population (from W. Anatolia) specifically contributed to the intermediaries that eventually contributed to modern Assyrians and Armenians.

IMO, TC_N or Boncoklu_N are more appropriate choices geographically-speaking.

You'll have to treat this information as a possible anachronism from me until someone who's more up to date with the current data can clarify where we currently are.

Agreed on all points which is why I've been attempting to explain to our friend earlier on that using Karelia_HG to gauge the amount of steppe admix in Armenians is irrelevant archaeologically, geographically, and chronologically.

NarLFC
06-25-2020, 07:44 PM
Steppe ancestry throughout West Asia seems to have been overlooked. I would say all ethnic groups surrounding us score more Steppe, the Syrian average that David has as an example scores 14% Catacomb in a similar run I made to yours. From what I've seen on Gedmatch, Iraqi Arabs should score a significant amount aswell, probably not far off the Syrian average.
There seems two be two or three outliers in the Assyrian average, though they are slight outliers imo and they are more likely Armenian mixed since they score very high Anatolia-related(Assyrian:160 and 161).
I think your run is fine for Armenians but not a good one for Assyrians tbh. The single most important sample for us atm in Davids spreadsheet is Syr_Ebla_EMBA since they likely represent how pre-Sargonic Akkadians looked like.

Going back to the subject of this thread I have to say I agree with NarLFC that the Armenians probably are more Steppe shifted than the Academic(?) averages show. My opinion is based off the numerous Armenian samples I've collected on Gedmatch, both Western and Eastern Armenians. And before people start, yes Gedmatch is outdated and I dislike using it now that we have a much better tool but there's no denying that there are certain components in the various calculators that correlate quite well with elevated Steppe ancestry. Especially in West Asia where say components labled "Baltic", "North Sea", "North European" etc most certainly indicate Steppe admixture and nothing else. From what I've seen most Armenians kits I run through they score higher of these Northern components than the average in the spreadsheets.
This is just my opinion though, but I do think it will be validated when more Armenians acquire PCA 25 coordinates.

The Syrian average contains 2 kits that seem to be Turkmen and Kurdish hence why they seemingly have more steppe-related ancestry than they really do.

Mingle
07-02-2020, 02:07 AM
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I looked at the individual samples and it looks like both Assyrians and Armenians (especially the latter) seem to have a significant portion of outliers. With the Assyrians, I simply removed four outliers and calculated a new average based off of the remaining samples. With Armenians, I removed the outliers and inserted two custom kits in their place.



Both of these are scaled coordinates. The Armenian average contains 6 samples while the Assyrian average contains 8 samples. The "u" stands for "updated" by the way.


Assyrian_u,0.097888,0.13214575,-0.06335625,-0.063429125,-0.03142875,-0.018790375,0.005933875,-0.005538125,-0.022932125,-0.003485125,0.00408,-0.002660125,0.007265875,-0.00079125,-0.00408875,0.00949675,-0.00074975,0.001219375,0.000895625,-0.00439275,-0.003837,0.0026275,0.000308125,-0.001852625,0.004236125


Armenian_u,0.104907,0.13625,-0.055311,-0.056364,-0.029441,-0.013062,0.004034,-0.005846,-0.031906,-0.007684,-0.000677,0.001574,-0.005154,0.005757,-0.004592,-0.007292,-0.004911,-0.000423,0.003813,-0.005836,0.002142,0.002803,0.000719,-0.004197,0.000858



Assyrian samples used to create the average:
• Assyrian152
• Assyrian153
• Assyrian155
• Assyrian159
• Assyrian161
• Assyrian162
• Assyrian164
• Assyrian165

Assyrian samples excluded from the average due to being outliers:
• Assyrian160
• Assyrian163
• Assyrian151

Armenian samples used to create the average:
• GS000013745
• GS000035124
• armenia102
• armenia86
• Custom: East Armenian
• Custom: 3/4 East Armenian, 1/4 West Armenian

Armenian samples excluded from the average due to being outliers:
• armenia139
• armenia176
• armenia279
• GS000035125

NarLFC
07-02-2020, 02:11 AM
I looked at the individual samples and it looks like both Assyrians and Armenians (especially the latter) seem to have a significant portion of outliers. With the Assyrians, I simply removed four outliers and calculated a new average based off of the remaining samples. With Armenians, I removed the outliers and inserted two custom kits in their place.



Both of these are scaled coordinates. The Armenian average contains 6 samples while the Assyrian average contains 8 samples. The "u" stands for "updated" by the way.


Assyrian_u,0.097888,0.13214575,-0.06335625,-0.063429125,-0.03142875,-0.018790375,0.005933875,-0.005538125,-0.022932125,-0.003485125,0.00408,-0.002660125,0.007265875,-0.00079125,-0.00408875,0.00949675,-0.00074975,0.001219375,0.000895625,-0.00439275,-0.003837,0.0026275,0.000308125,-0.001852625,0.004236125


Armenian_u,0.104907,0.13625,-0.055311,-0.056364,-0.029441,-0.013062,0.004034,-0.005846,-0.031906,-0.007684,-0.000677,0.001574,-0.005154,0.005757,-0.004592,-0.007292,-0.004911,-0.000423,0.003813,-0.005836,0.002142,0.002803,0.000719,-0.004197,0.000858



Assyrian samples used to create the average:
• Assyrian152
• Assyrian153
• Assyrian155
• Assyrian159
• Assyrian161
• Assyrian162
• Assyrian164
• Assyrian165

Assyrian samples excluded from the average due to being outliers:
• Assyrian160
• Assyrian163
• Assyrian151

Armenian samples used to create the average:
• GS000013745
• GS000035124
• armenia102
• armenia86
• Custom: East Armenian
• Custom: 1/2 East Armenian, 1/2 West Armenian

Armenian samples excluded from the average due to being outliers:
• armenia139
• armenia176
• armenia279
• GS000035125

Thanks man. Much appreciated!