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Paul333
06-02-2020, 07:32 PM
Two Neolithic Y H2a Haplogroups have been confirmed in the 'Linkardstown', early cist burials in Ireland. 1.A burial dated to 3632-3384 BC, at Baunogenadsraid, Co Carlow. 2. A burial dated to 2849-2628 BC, at Jerpoint West,Co Kilkenny.

There is a link on post #198, to a Thesis,by Lara M Cassidy, Documenting Continuity and Change across Irish Human Prehistory.

There is other sets of recent papers referencing and confirming a Number of separate Y H2a1, findings both in France and Germany. A significant cluster of Y H2 being found to the East of the Rhine river around Muhlhausen, Stuttgart.

This seems to be a different Y H2 people, from the French ones as I read into what they say that the Rhine river was an East -West seperating barrier in the Stuttgart regions, indicating that there may of been two different Neolithic routes, taken by Y H2 carriers, into Central and North Western Europe. One people possibly including seafaring, from the coasts of Iberia, Normandy etc and reaching the British Isle etc, and another travelling overland through the Balkans, from Anatolia and the Blacksea region.

There are four 'Y H2 P96' references from Calvados Region of France, referenced on a post by artemv #2 ' Ancient Genome-Wide DNA from France' ,all are stated as pre-SNP Y19962.

The dating for these four are FLR001 is given a date between 4045-4275 BCE. FLR002 is 4045-3965 BCE, FLR004 is given age of 4675-4490 BCE, and FLR01 4540-4405 BCE.

I think these are all stated as Neolithic, but they now indicate a confirmed presence of Y H2 Haplogroups in early Europe. Hopefully there will be more coming

Check the discussion boards on the Ancient DNA for more information about these.

thejkhan
06-02-2020, 11:07 PM
The oldest H2 found in Europe so far is the Brillenhohle sample from southern Germany, dated 14780 ybp.

Paul333
06-03-2020, 12:28 AM
The oldest H2 found in Europe so far is the Brillenhohle sample from southern Germany, dated 14780 ybp.

Thanks, thejkhan,
I will look for it, 'Brillenhohle' is also not too far from Mulhlhausen, so they may of been around a while.

14,780 YBP,would be a game changer, it would confirm Y H2 as one of the oldest European Haplogroups.

I used to transport goods across Europe by HGV etc, a few years ago, and I know the Stuttgart area, and I often would overnight at a truck stop at nearby Gersthofen, Ausburg.

Its trying to find a connection with one group of early Y H2, and give me an excuse to visit a site, hopefully things are beginning to move regarding the presence of Y H2.

thejkhan
06-03-2020, 02:06 AM
Thanks, thejkhan,
I will look for it, 'Brillenhohle' is also not too far from Mulhlhausen, so they may of been around a while.

14,780 YBP,would be a game changer, it would confirm Y H2 as one of the oldest European Haplogroups.

I used to transport goods across Europe by HGV etc, a few years ago, and I know the Stuttgart area, and I often would overnight at a truck stop at nearby Gersthofen, Ausburg.

Its trying to find a connection with one group of early Y H2, and give me an excuse to visit a site, hopefully things are beginning to move regarding the presence of Y H2.

It's possible the H2 from Brillenhöhle is a dead end lineage. However it proves H2 was once widespread as hunter-gatherers before the Neolithic. The majority of modern European H2 probably comes from a few Neolithic lineages.

Paul333
06-03-2020, 12:01 PM
I agree, but it is a strange co-incidence that Y H2 has been found in the same area, many thousands of years apart.
A recent opinion suggests at least two separate groups of Y H2 existed in Europe during the Neolithic, one of which is from that Locality, and if Brillenhohle is unrelated, then there would be three confirmed movements of Y H2 into and throughout Europe.

Farroukh
06-06-2020, 03:48 PM
Dear Paul333, H-section of this forum is not so diverse, therefore do not clone threads,please.
Same subject is in H-L901 in Ancient Europe (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20449-H-L901-in-Ancient-Europe) and is active.

Farroukh
06-06-2020, 03:54 PM
I agree, but it is a strange co-incidence that Y H2 has been found in the same area, many thousands of years apart.

Did you pass BigY700? M9313 is one of unstable SNPs.

Paul333
06-06-2020, 07:06 PM
Dear Paul333, H-section of this forum is not so diverse, therefore do not clone threads,please.
Same subject is in H-L901 in Ancient Europe (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20449-H-L901-in-Ancient-Europe) and is active.

I beg to differ.

Y H2 P96, is not the same at all. It is completely separated from Y H L901,
There are three separate main Y H Haplogroups as I understand, Y H1, Y H2, and Y H3, and therefore each Haplogroup should be treated as they are, much in the same way as others for instance R1b and R1a, which represent very different journeys, much in the same way here.

There is still an uncertainty about Y H2, P96, and even opinions exist that it may be changed again and therefore its possible its Identity could even be moved again,and possibly even from the Y H tree.

Recent information is making the possibility of Ancient Y H2, being very diveresd from, Y H1 and Y H3. Y H2 is confirmed in Paleolithic Europe, no sign of Y H1, and Y H3, its association clearly identifies a very old split, and separation from the other Y H haplogroups.

Paul333
06-06-2020, 07:12 PM
Deleted

Paul333
06-06-2020, 07:26 PM
Did you pass BigY700? M9313 is one of unstable SNPs.

Not sure what you mean by your post, about Big Y700, but if you read my earlier posts about Y H2 and the SNP M9313, you will see Ive already queried the uncertainty about this, and tried to have this disscussed without success.

I received a positive result for M9313 from Living DNA, It is I know representing more than one Haplogroup. It was looked into by another poster and he informed me it was representing Y H2a1. It is on ISOGG 2019/20, and the SNP Index, although its actual position on the YH2 tree is uncertain, as I understand. M9313 also represents Y-I S8522 in Europe, via SNP L801,etc, and is also stated as confirmed for Haplogroup Y-D1a2a.

Megalophias
06-06-2020, 08:55 PM
Does anyone know the details about the Brillenhohle Y hg H2 call? I checked the SNP file kindly provided by Kolgeh, and it is a very low coverage sample. He is positive for L284, which is at the H2 level. But that is a C > T mutation, and the DNA was not treated with UDG, so I guess there's a high chance it's ancient DNA damage. There are no other calls at that level or upstream to support it, and no negative calls for the usual suspects I or C - only one negative SNP for R.

So has anyone looked at it more carefully and concluded it really is (or isn't) H2?

ArmandoR1b
06-06-2020, 09:37 PM
The oldest H2 found in Europe so far is the Brillenhohle sample from southern Germany, dated 14780 ybp.


It's possible the H2 from Brillenhöhle is a dead end lineage. However it proves H2 was once widespread as hunter-gatherers before the Neolithic. The majority of modern European H2 probably comes from a few Neolithic lineages.


Does anyone know the details about the Brillenhohle Y hg H2 call? I checked the SNP file kindly provided by Kolgeh, and it is a very low coverage sample. He is positive for L284, which is at the H2 level. But that is a C > T mutation, and the DNA was not treated with UDG, so I guess there's a high chance it's ancient DNA damage. There are no other calls at that level or upstream to support it, and no negative calls for the usual suspects I or C - only one negative SNP for R.

So has anyone looked at it more carefully and concluded it really is (or isn't) H2?

I had also looked at th BAM file back in December and I had come to the same conclusion. The coverage is excessively low and the only derived SNP that isn't possibly from deamination is L1090 for haplogroup A0-T. The total derived SNPs including those possibly from deamination is 4. Personally I would not consider the derived call for L284 to be reliable and therefore I would not consider Brillenhöhle to be positive for H2.



pos
marker_name
haplogroup
mutation
anc
der
reads
called_perc
called_base
state


3544962
L1090
A0-T
G->C
G
C
1
100
C
D


24453327
Y16731
E1b1b1a1b1a14~
G->A
G
A
1
100
A
D


15604862
L284
H2
C->T
C
T
1
100
T
D


14488543
YP1241
Q2a1a2a1a1
G->A
G
A
1
100
A
D

Farroukh
06-07-2020, 09:01 AM
I received a positive result for M9313 from Living DNA, It is I know representing more than one Haplogroup.
Dou you have only M9313+ as the final result? Did LivingDNA provide you complete line of your positive SNPs?

Your case is nontrivial and very interesting. BigY700 is most informative Y-DNA test among FTDNA products. IMHO, it will be better for you to test agan at FTDNA

Paul333
06-07-2020, 04:01 PM
Dou you have only M9313+ as the final result? Did LivingDNA provide you complete line of your positive SNPs?

Your case is nontrivial and very interesting. BigY700 is most informative Y-DNA test among FTDNA products. IMHO, it will be better for you to test agan at FTDNA


My terminal Snp and Haplogroup was first made by Living DNA in 2017 as Y H2 'P 96'. I also retested with 23&Me which confirmed Y H2 P96 as my Haplogroup Marker.

Living DNA gave me a list of my positive markers about 99 SNPs, including P 96 and M9313. They also gave me seven Mtdna Snps, for Mtdna H1c3.

23 & Me gave me a load of raw data, but its hard for me to understand most of it.

I then was informed that being positive for the SNP M9313, is indicating I am possibly Y H2a1, and this seems to be indicated by a number of references to a lower subclade than Y H2 P96, of Y H2a1,but its position on some is indicating not yet confirmed, and it represents other Haplogroups as well, so Ill have to wait untill this is sorted as this could possibly be my terminal SNP, as its further down from P 96.

I have not tested with FTDNA, but did have a test of 17 positive str markers done by the University of Leicester, under Turi King and Mark A Jobling, in their project, "Seeking Viking descendants in the North of England" I think it was around 2009 or 2011. My results were so rare,they could not identify my Haplogroup, only on these results, and this is why I then tested with the other two companies.

They also only tested the Y, DNA at the time, as I have a Viking derived surname, a modern version stemming and basically ,identical to a naming class, of one shown on the bottom of page 88 regarding a Danish settler name, in their book, The Viking achievement by Peter foot, and DM Wilsen, 1979, ( possibly this is the reason many Vikings began settling elsewhere or finding new better homes and land, and could be the reason I have it, there are alot of these similar names in the Northern Isle's of Orkney and Shetland up to the 1600s ). The project asked that all my Grandparents were born in the same area of Northern England, as indeed were all my 8 Great Grandparents,all being born in the then County of Durham, England, between 1874,and 1888, which was a criteria.

I think it was only in late 2017 when Y H2 was listed on this site in UK. There was only a single lad on Anthrogenica in the UK, from Scotland, first posted on 11th Sept 2017, and then myself a single entry for Northern England first posted on 23 Oct 2017. There is a couple more since, but it is still sparse, it was even believed at one time to be extinct.

I never heard anything or received any further information about the project after I got my results. I tried to find out, and contacted Turi King herself, but at that time she informed me it still has not been published, so I still have no idea about its findings. If anybody knows anything about that project results etc, please let me know.

Having already got 17str results, and now both of my Y & MT Haplogroups, its not going to be worth my paying for anymore STRs by using FTDNA, at this time, as there's so few Y H2 P96 about.

parasar
06-07-2020, 05:15 PM
Per Genetiker:
"Those three samples have too little data for their Y haplogroups to be determined."
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/05/05/phenotype-snps-from-ice-age-europe/

Farroukh
06-08-2020, 03:59 AM
Paul333, I strongly recommend you toorder Y-DNA test at FTDNA. You can start with 12 markers only and then upgrade them step by step up to BigY700.

Your current results (Living DNA, 23&Me and so on) did they best and cannot be more informative.

FTDNA will give you your terminal SNP and list of your matches (male line).

Paul333
06-08-2020, 12:10 PM
Paul333, I strongly recommend you toorder Y-DNA test at FTDNA. You can start with 12 markers only and then upgrade them step by step up to BigY700.

Your current results (Living DNA, 23&Me and so on) did they best and cannot be more informative.

FTDNA will give you your terminal SNP and list of your matches (male line).

Thanks Farroukh,
I might consider doing this at some time,in the near future. Ive just checked on the Ftdna site and out of my 17str markers my closest match's are 260333, with 14,out of 17strs, and then 265383 with a match of 14, out of 16 strs.

On Ftdna 265383 is just given 'P96', and 260333 is given 'Y21616', not sure if these are relevant to my P96 though.

Farroukh
06-09-2020, 03:52 AM
265383 seems to be tested only for backbone test only, therefore he ended up just at H2-P96 level.

260333 belongs to H-Y19962 branch.

Paul, try it with FTDNA. It is a good quest. :)

Paul333
07-29-2020, 03:50 PM
265383 seems to be tested only for backbone test only, therefore he ended up just at H2-P96 level.

260333 belongs to H-Y19962 branch.

Paul, try it with FTDNA. It is a good quest. :)

On the FTDNA Y H tree, 260333, has now been placed in the Y H2a1a subclade group, with SNP Z19049. This is also confirmed on the ISOGG Y DNA H haplogroup Tree 11th July 2020. SNP tracker has this to SNP SK1180. dated to 31,000-29,000 BCE

Paul333
10-13-2020, 10:59 PM
Today found a new subclade of FT18685, that indicates on the SNP Tracker tool, that Y H2,was present, or arrived into England around 2300BC, This period is also the age the 'Beaker People' first arrived into England.

Two people have this subclade on the FTDNA Y H project tree, representing Y-H2a1a, One is on this forum.

The two entries on the project match each other using the same 17strs I have, with 15 matches each, and two none ,match's, using the same 17 Str markers. Their two none match's each are one step away also, from each other and myself.

This is great news, as Ive been hanging around with YH2 P96, in the paleolithic middle east for years. It now looks as though its arrived and is given a date in the same period as Beaker People arrived, who replaced the local population by up to 90%.
Im not sure if my own Y H2 is connected but these have the closest match yet to myself.

I now need to find out if my Y H2 was local, or came with these to England.

Paul333
10-13-2020, 11:11 PM
265383 seems to be tested only for backbone test only, therefore he ended up just at H2-P96 level.

260333 belongs to H-Y19962 branch.

Paul, try it with FTDNA. It is a good quest. :)

They have been both moved to the Y H2a1a subclade, with a further SNP FT18685, which is downsteam from an earlier subclade of BY84221.

I think 265383 must of tested further as he has been entered as Y H2a1a now, along with 260333.

Y Z19049 is representing a similar but different subclade of Y H2a1a, belonging to FTDNA entry '239312'.