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jkotl0327
06-04-2020, 11:50 AM
I am an Ashkenazi Jew with paternal ancestry from Ukraine traced into the 19th century. My paternal haplogroup is I-Z26381. Are there any other people on Anthrogenica, Jewish or non-Jewish, Ashkenazi or Mizrahi, with this haplogroup?

StillWater
06-05-2020, 04:01 AM
Can you share with us what you've learned about your Y-DNA? What do you know about your patrilinial ancestry?

jkotl0327
06-05-2020, 04:31 AM
Can you share with us what you've learned about your Y-DNA? What do you know about your patrilinial ancestry?

I don't know that much. On the patrillineal line I can trace my ancestry back to my great-great grandfather, Chaim Meyer Kotlyar, who lived in Odessa, Ukraine. Family lore says that the last name was originally Puretz and that the family was from some other part of Ukraine. That's about it. Many of his lines ended in daughters, so of my generation only my cousin and I have this haplogroup. I have identified 12 Ashkenazi people through 23andme cousin matches on various profiles I have access to that have this group. 23andme also says that 1 in 1400 customers has it, which should still be thousands of people.

artemv
06-06-2020, 06:25 AM
I have identified 12 Ashkenazi people through 23andme cousin matches on various profiles I have access to that have this group. 23andme also says that 1 in 1400 customers has it, which should still be thousands of people.
12 Ashkenazi people on 23andme have exactly the same haplogroup, I mean Z26381?
I-L596 is a very interesting haplogroup, at it must have arrived to the Near East from Europe probably in late Paleolithic, thousand years later some of its branches returned to Europe.
As for me, it would be really interesting to know your more detailed haplogroup.

jkotl0327
06-07-2020, 01:49 AM
12 Ashkenazi people on 23andme have exactly the same haplogroup, I mean Z26381?
I-L596 is a very interesting haplogroup, at it must have arrived to the Near East from Europe probably in late Paleolithic, thousand years later some of its branches returned to Europe.
As for me, it would be really interesting to know your more detailed haplogroup.

I tried to use YSEQ but it still gave me the same level of specificity. Do you have any suggestions for how to get a more detailed haplogroup (I only have 23andme). And yes, I saw 12 people with exactly I-Z26381.

artemv
06-10-2020, 09:02 AM
Generally, there is only one idea - y-full.
But they only analyse the data and do not make tests.
So, first you need to use one of two:
- dante labs;
- Big-Y on FTDNA.
Than upload test results to y-full.

This is somewhat costy, but you will see your exact position on y-full tree that will be updated.

But you didn't tell much about YSEQ. What panel did you take and what are the negatives you git from there?

jkotl0327
06-10-2020, 11:25 PM
Generally, there is only one idea - y-full.
But they only analyse the data and do not make tests.
So, first you need to use one of two:
- dante labs;
- Big-Y on FTDNA.
Than upload test results to y-full.

This is somewhat costy, but you will see your exact position on y-full tree that will be updated.

But you didn't tell much about YSEQ. What panel did you take and what are the negatives you git from there?

Maybe I'll try that. Here are all my YSEQ screenshots. I-Z26381 is one of the SNP associated with the group they give me.

37967
37968
37969
37970

artemv
06-10-2020, 11:54 PM
Thank you.

So, you do not even have downstream negatives.
Actually you can also pay a few more dollars to Yseq and check for a number of dowstream SNPs (marked in bold and with a $ sign).
Of course, this will give you much less info comparing to results that can be uploaded to Y-full.

jkotl0327
06-11-2020, 02:43 AM
Thank you.

So, you do not even have downstream negatives.
Actually you can also pay a few more dollars to Yseq and check for a number of dowstream SNPs (marked in bold and with a $ sign).
Of course, this will give you much less info comparing to results that can be uploaded to Y-full.

Thanks, I'll look into it.

eastara
06-12-2020, 03:14 AM
The Jewish I2c2 branch has already been determined as I-Y86519 at YFULL. Despite being around 3900y.o., TMRCA is only 225y. The brother branches are predominantly Armenian and other South Caucasus, so it is not very clear how it was absorbed by the Jewish diaspora. My brother is from the small South Balkan branch I-BY4177.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y86519/

jkotl0327
06-12-2020, 04:21 AM
The Jewish I2c2 branch has already been determined as I-Y86519 at YFULL. Despite being around 3900y.o., TMRCA is only 225y. The brother branches are predominantly Armenian and other South Caucasus, so it is not very clear how it was absorbed by the Jewish diaspora. My brother is from the small South Balkan branch I-BY4177.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y86519/

You make an interesting point. The Ukrainian sample could be Jewish, but Russian is Checenskaya Respublika. That is in South Russia and Chechens are ethnically Caucasian people. That makes this lineage not fully Jewish, but at least part Caucasian as well. One of three options is possible:
a) The Ukrainian sample is actually an Armenian or Chechen living in Kiev (this is not uncommon), and this is not actually the Jewish subclade.
b) The Ukrainian sample is a Ukrainian or Jew but does not belong to the same I2c2 subclade as other Jews, because he has a Caucasian paternal ancestor.
c) The Ukrainian sample is a Jew, all I-Z26381 Ashkenazim belong to this subclade (as you seem to believe), and all Ashkenazim of this subclade have recent Caucasian paternal ancestry.

I think option a is most likely. On 23andme, none of the 12 Ashkenazim I saw with I-Z26381 had any Caucasian ancestry indicated by 23andme. If all 12 of us had Caucasian ancestry in the last 200 years, at least somebody should have gotten some indication of that on 23andme.

See my previous posts in this thread for some historical sources indicating a potential Jewish source for this haplogroup.

eastara
06-12-2020, 11:10 AM
Well, it has long been known, even before the major SNP discoveries coming with NGS testing, that there is a very tight Jewish STR claster, belonging to I2c2. 23andMe does not test for them, but mostly identical STRs in fact indicate a close connection in genealogical sense - like 300 years back.
You can see for yourself in the FTDNA I2b I-L415, I2a2 (was I2c) I- L596 project.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215?iframe=yresults

FTDNA has discovered also probably 2 Jewish branches - BY424/BY2808* and BY2807, you can see how tight they are as having only 1 or 4 private SNP. People sometimes calculate the age of the branch by the number of Private SNPs - like 60 years per SNP to the common ancestor. Just now there is a sale at FamilyTreeDNA, you can order the Big Y and contribute to science.

119085 Sem Malter, b.1884 Monasterzyska, Galicia Ukraine Austria I-BY424
IN55780 Chechen Republic, Grozny Russian Federation I-BY424
N84725 Eliyahu Lipiansky, Elizavetgrad Unknown Origin I-BY2808
790352 Max Henry Ness 1874-1944, Russia Russian Federation I-BY2808
N81331 1900 Ukraine I-BY2807

37976

artemv
06-12-2020, 12:37 PM
You make an interesting point. The Ukrainian sample could be Jewish, but Russian is Checenskaya Respublika. That is in South Russia and Chechens are ethnically Caucasian people.

There were mountain jews living in the region a few centuries ago, later most of them changed their religion and were assimilated into Chechen society, Chechens still sometimes speak about other Chechens they don't like as of "hiding their Jewishness".
Also we should remember that in Soviet times about 50% of region's population were actually non-Chechens, although almost all non-Chechens (as well as many Chechens) moved out at early 90-s as hostilities began.

jkotl0327
06-12-2020, 05:07 PM
Well, it has long been known, even before the major SNP discoveries coming with NGS testing, that there is a very tight Jewish STR claster, belonging to I2c2. 23andMe does not test for them, but mostly identical STRs in fact indicate a close connection in genealogical sense - like 300 years back.
You can see for yourself in the FTDNA I2b I-L415, I2a2 (was I2c) I- L596 project.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215?iframe=yresults

FTDNA has discovered also probably 2 Jewish branches - BY424/BY2808* and BY2807, you can see how tight they are as having only 1 or 4 private SNP. People sometimes calculate the age of the branch by the number of Private SNPs - like 60 years per SNP to the common ancestor. Just now there is a sale at FamilyTreeDNA, you can order the Big Y and contribute to science.

119085 Sem Malter, b.1884 Monasterzyska, Galicia Ukraine Austria I-BY424
IN55780 Chechen Republic, Grozny Russian Federation I-BY424
N84725 Eliyahu Lipiansky, Elizavetgrad Unknown Origin I-BY2808
790352 Max Henry Ness 1874-1944, Russia Russian Federation I-BY2808
N81331 1900 Ukraine I-BY2807

37976

I am not sure I understand your point. I'm sure you are right about the Jewish branch having a common ancestor within the last few hundred years. Are you trying to say that this IN55780 Chechen has the same haplogroup as Sem Malter? What would the TMRCA for that be? I clicked the link and found the people you listed here, but there are many more people there including Caucasians, Arabs, Jews, and even a Frenchman. I didn't see any TMRCA. I did end up finding the place where only Sem Malter and a Grozny, Chechnya sample is together. There was an Ashkenazi community in Grozny in the 19th and 20th centuries. Maybe this is a result of that. The alternative option is Chechen/Caucasian introgression into the Ashkenazi Jewish community, and I think in that case people with I-Z26381 would see Caucasian ancestry on their 23andme, which has never been the case.

jkotl0327
06-12-2020, 05:11 PM
There were mountain jews living in the region a few centuries ago, later most of them changed their religion and were assimilated into Chechen society, Chechens still sometimes speak about other Chechens they don't like as of "hiding their Jewishness".
Also we should remember that in Soviet times about 50% of region's population were actually non-Chechens, although almost all non-Chechens (as well as many Chechens) moved out at early 90-s as hostilities began.

Chechens are 95% of the population in Chechenskaya Respublika now.

eastara
06-13-2020, 01:10 AM
Well, I only wanted to point, that the Ashkenazi I2c2 branch has already been identified as Y86519 at YFULL and BY424/BY2808 at FTDNA. The guy from Grozni no doubt has Ashkenazi ancestry, probably you will be able to contact him if tested with FamilyTreeDNA.
There are tools that can calculate the age of the cluster based on STR markers and it is mentioned in the I2c project the TMRCA of the Jewish branch is 700 years. However this is only an estimation and the age could be more precisely calculated by the Big Y and other NGS tests. For now, very few people from the Jewish branch have taken this test, if you join, the age of the branch may change and you can form a new subbranch with some of the other Ashkenazi, who have not joined YFULL.
The question is how I2c2 was included in the Ashkenazi gene pool. Has it been acquired in the Middle East or somewhere in Europe? Although I2c is probably of European origin, I2c2 most likely originated in the Anatolia/Caucasus region. It has a recent Bronze age expansion and some people think it could be connected with the IndoEuropeans. My personal opinion is that I2c2 in Europe is a legacy from the "Greek world" - originally Anatolian, it spread during Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine times. It could be taken to the Middle East ( there are some I2c2 Palestinian and Saudi) during the same time.

jkotl0327
06-13-2020, 04:21 AM
Well, I only wanted to point, that the Ashkenazi I2c2 branch has already been identified as Y86519 at YFULL and BY424/BY2808 at FTDNA. The guy from Grozni no doubt has Ashkenazi ancestry, probably you will be able to contact him if tested with FamilyTreeDNA.
There are tools that can calculate the age of the cluster based on STR markers and it is mentioned in the I2c project the TMRCA of the Jewish branch is 700 years. However this is only an estimation and the age could be more precisely calculated by the Big Y and other NGS tests. For now, very few people from the Jewish branch have taken this test, if you join, the age of the branch may change and you can form a new subbranch with some of the other Ashkenazi, who have not joined YFULL.
The question is how I2c2 was included in the Ashkenazi gene pool. Has it been acquired in the Middle East or somewhere in Europe? Although I2c is probably of European origin, I2c2 most likely originated in the Anatolia/Caucasus region. It has a recent Bronze age expansion and some people think it could be connected with the IndoEuropeans. My personal opinion is that I2c2 in Europe is a legacy from the "Greek world" - originally Anatolian, it spread during Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine times. It could be taken to the Middle East ( there are some I2c2 Palestinian and Saudi) during the same time.

I can trace my patrilineal ancestry only to the late 19th century so it is certainly possible that I share a common ancestor with these people ~200 years ago. Although, there seems to be no common surname, so the group probably dates back to before most Ukrainian Jews adopted surnames. I think that there are three main possibilities for the haplogroup's origin:

a) Caucasian origin with Kura-Araxes introgression into Jewish/Levantine founding population ~3900 ybp and later spread around "Greek world".
b) Jewish origin with Jewish family (Bagration family) rising to prominence and spreading throughout Caucasia due to many royal branches.
c) Old Anatolian or Iranian origin with migration to Caucasia and Levant in 2nd millennium BC.

artemv
06-13-2020, 06:22 PM
The question is how I2c2 was included in the Ashkenazi gene pool. Has it been acquired in the Middle East or somewhere in Europe? Although I2c is probably of European origin, I2c2 most likely originated in the Anatolia/Caucasus region. It has a recent Bronze age expansion and some people think it could be connected with the IndoEuropeans. My personal opinion is that I2c2 in Europe is a legacy from the "Greek world" - originally Anatolian, it spread during Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine times. It could be taken to the Middle East ( there are some I2c2 Palestinian and Saudi) during the same time.

Hmm, maybe you know more about this, but as for me it looks a bit different.
First of all Egyptian Y14158* gives a clue that it could happen that I2c migrated to the Near East in paleolithic - and after that I2c1 returned to Europe in Neolithic.
On Y-full I can see age of Y16419 (I guess this is what you call I2c2) is 3900ybp - too early to think about expansion in Hellenistic times or later.
2 European samples are from Sardinia, 1 from Bulgaria and 1 from England, but they do not make a single branch. Likely each of them has its own story about how did they got to Europe.

jkotl0327
06-14-2020, 01:54 AM
Update:
After speaking to relatives, it seems like my more distant patrilineal ancestry can be traced to Teplik, Vinnitsa oblast, Ukraine. Any Ashkenazi I-Z26381 with ancestry form Teplik or Odessa, please respond to this thread.

Edessa
12-13-2020, 09:51 PM
Hi there, digging this thread out only now and since you were looking for anyone from this clade here I am. 23andme has me as I-Z26381. (They also say 1 in 1,400 of their customers have it which I find perhaps exaggerated). My paternal line is from Kuwait but entirely Persian (Ajam) hailing from the Lamerd district of the province Fars. Being a rare haplogroup in Iran and learning that it seems to be most frequent and diverse around Caucasus (Armenia/Georgia) my theory about it coming to Persia is Shah Abbas driving large populations from Caucasus to Persia. I am still puzzled about everyone saying it came back to Middle East from Europe. Can't it just be native to Caucasus/Zagros ranges? I read somewhere that some I* were found in Iran too. I have also done FTDNA where they have me as I-Z26403 for now, with BY3335, A1143 and Y16648 tested negative.

jkotl0327
12-18-2020, 04:08 AM
Hi there, digging this thread out only now and since you were looking for anyone from this clade here I am. 23andme has me as I-Z26381. (They also say 1 in 1,400 of their customers have it which I find perhaps exaggerated). My paternal line is from Kuwait but entirely Persian (Ajam) hailing from the Lamerd district of the province Fars. Being a rare haplogroup in Iran and learning that it seems to be most frequent and diverse around Caucasus (Armenia/Georgia) my theory about it coming to Persia is Shah Abbas driving large populations from Caucasus to Persia. I am still puzzled about everyone saying it came back to Middle East from Europe. Can't it just be native to Caucasus/Zagros ranges? I read somewhere that some I* were found in Iran too. I have also done FTDNA where they have me as I-Z26403 for now, with BY3335, A1143 and Y16648 tested negative.

Hi, sorry for not noticing this for so long. 23andme has a lot of American Ashkenazi Jews descended from Eastern Europe tested which is why such a disproportionate 1/1400 number. I2 is native to Europe, I2c I'm not sure but probably also native to Balkanic Europe. Doesn't mean I-Y166649 is not native to the Middle East. In fact, I think we can pride ourselves on being the only I clade native to the Middle East, although I might be wrong about that. Are you the be I-Z26403 on Yfull? My ftDNA is processing now so I'll know exactly where I am soon, though I expect BY2807.

StillWater
12-18-2020, 05:21 AM
In fact, I think we can pride ourselves on being the only I clade native to the Middle East, although I might be wrong about that. Are you the be I-Z26403 on Yfull? My ftDNA is processing now so I'll know exactly where I am soon, though I expect BY2807.

This one certainly has a Middle Eastern presence: https://yfull.com/tree/I-S12195/ at the very least. There are also Mizrachim in it.

altvred
12-18-2020, 07:02 AM
Hi there, digging this thread out only now and since you were looking for anyone from this clade here I am. 23andme has me as I-Z26381. (They also say 1 in 1,400 of their customers have it which I find perhaps exaggerated). My paternal line is from Kuwait but entirely Persian (Ajam) hailing from the Lamerd district of the province Fars. Being a rare haplogroup in Iran and learning that it seems to be most frequent and diverse around Caucasus (Armenia/Georgia) my theory about it coming to Persia is Shah Abbas driving large populations from Caucasus to Persia. I am still puzzled about everyone saying it came back to Middle East from Europe. Can't it just be native to Caucasus/Zagros ranges? I read somewhere that some I* were found in Iran too. I have also done FTDNA where they have me as I-Z26403 for now, with BY3335, A1143 and Y16648 tested negative.
So far, the oldest samples of haplogroup I have been found in Palaeolithic sites throughout Europe but not outside of it.
Coupled with the fact that IJ split around 30,000-40,000 years ago, implies that the SNP mutation defining I occurred on the path of human migration into Europe from the Near East (through Anatolia or the Caucasus).
The most likely candidate right now is the Balkans but that could change if I* is detected in samples predating the European ones outside of Europe.
Regardless of that, the subclade of I2 you belong to split from the main European branch more than 20,000 years ago according to Yfull
https://yfull.com/tree/I-L596/
So even if your particular branch is the result of migration from Europe back to the Middle East, said migration occurred a very long time ago.

Edessa
12-18-2020, 02:42 PM
I am not on yFull, only have done the L-596 pack on ftDNA. Also joined the L-596 project and I suggest you do the same when you have your ftDNA results. Our clade is rather rare and seems to have very weird geographical distribution. I'd like to see some more research given that 1 in 1,400 of 23andme customers has it. :)

According to my L-596 pack test results my terminal positively tested SNP at the moment is Z26403+

Downstream:

BY2818 - not tested
BY3335 - negative
A1143 - negative
Y16648 - negative
FT121460 - not tested
FT87159 - not tested
BY424 - not tested BUT BY2808 tested negative which is also a defining SNP for BY424

Apologies for the rookie question but from the above I am concluding that I am negative for BY424 and also, since BY2807 is downstream of BY424, that I am negative for BY2807.

So the only three downstream options for me are BY2818, FT121460 or FT87159?

jkotl0327
12-18-2020, 04:47 PM
This one certainly has a Middle Eastern presence: https://yfull.com/tree/I-S12195/ at the very least. There are also Mizrachim in it.

The Iraqi? Looking at the age and spread it definitely seems to have old roots in Europe but perhaps a Middle Eastern origin followed by Neolithic migration given all the S Italian and Greek.

jkotl0327
12-18-2020, 04:51 PM
I am not on yFull, only have done the L-596 pack on ftDNA. Also joined the L-596 project and I suggest you do the same when you have your ftDNA results. Our clade is rather rare and seems to have very weird geographical distribution. I'd like to see some more research given that 1 in 1,400 of 23andme customers has it. :)

According to my L-596 pack test results my terminal positively tested SNP at the moment is Z26403+

Downstream:

BY2818 - not tested
BY3335 - negative
A1143 - negative
Y16648 - negative
FT121460 - not tested
FT87159 - not tested
BY424 - not tested BUT BY2808 tested negative which is also a defining SNP for BY424

Apologies for the rookie question but from the above I am concluding that I am negative for BY424 and also, since BY2807 is downstream of BY424, that I am negative for BY2807.

So the only three downstream options for me are BY2818, FT121460 or FT87159?

I think so unless you are basal. BY2807 would have put you within the Jewish cluster :)

IronHorse
12-26-2020, 08:09 PM
The Jewish branch of I2c2 may have a similar origin to the Jewish R-L584 and R-Y4363, these two lineages share the same distribution and their subclades have a similar tmrca to I2c2.

their Jewish divisions are cousins to Iraqi and Lebanese.

https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y16852/
https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC62957/

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/dna-results

there are right now Iraqi, Lebanese, Kuwaiti, Bahraini and Emirati I2c2 but none has tested for Big-Y, they may form a clade with the Jewish branch.