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View Full Version : What happened to the Artvin and Ardahan Turkish samples of Turkish DNA Project?



Onur Dincer
06-07-2020, 04:26 PM
I have noticed recently that the Turkish samples from the northeastern Anatolian province of Artvin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artvin_Province) were all removed from all the public autosomal result pages of Turkish DNA Project. Here are the pages they were removed from:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Pj2rBe3L-Jf89JFACjTC1hSRfI7EOps-zed1x0FFpbY/edit#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JEezl8YoZjOoNqnMoha9sWdMsvIwYYmV5ccljTkhryQ/edit#gid=0

https://turkishdnaproject.com/

From the page in the first link above, the one Ardahan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardahan_Province) Turkish sample was removed as well.

These removals occurred not long after I pointed to the very little Central Asian Turkic ancestry found in the Turks of Artvin and Ardahan and their quite similar genetics to Georgians and Laz in my comments in one of the threads (http://nisanyan1.blogspot.com/2018/03/ahska-turkleri.html) of a blog followed by the owners of Turkish DNA Project and gave the first link above (which then included Artvin and Ardahan Turks as well) as a proof.

Bear in mind that Artvin and Ardahan Turks are natives of their respective provinces, they do not have any genealogically traceable ancestry from any other province. Since the 1960s, some people (e.g., Fahrettin Kırzıoğlu) incorrectly labeled Artvin and Ardahan Turks as "Ahıska Turks", but in truth they have no genealogically traceable ancestry from Akhaltsikhe (Ahıska), Georgia, they are as native as it gets. For info on the matter (in Turkish):

https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ah%C4%B1ska_T%C3%BCrkleri#Ah%C4%B1ska_T%C3%BCrk%C3 %BC_terimi

Besides, even if they were really immigrants from Akhaltsikhe, Georgia, that would not be enough of a justification for their removal from the autosomal result pages of Turkish DNA Project as that project still retains the Iğdır and Kars Turks of genealogically traceable Azerbaijani background from outside the territories of Turkey in its autosomal result pages.

In my comments in the blog thread I linked to, I specifically stated that I acknowledge the Turkish identity of people who regard themselves Turkish irrespective of their origins and that what I share about genetics is only about origins and has no bearing on people's current identities, which should be enough to clarify my position. So when some Turks with no or tiny amounts Central Asian Turkic ancestry are removed from the Turkish autosomal result pages of Turkish DNA Project, I cannot take it lightly. It sets a bad example for the treatment of people in Turkey. During my military service in Turkey I saw one Trabzon Turk (who usually have no Central Asian Turkic ancestry) being mistreated and labeled "non-Turk" by a Pan-Turkist Turkish guy just because of being from Trabzon.

I want to add that I am just curious about the reasons behind those removals and hope that I am wrong in my guesses.

Alkaevli
06-08-2020, 05:27 PM
I want to add that I am just curious about the reasons behind those removals and hope that I am wrong in my guesses.
Yes, you are totally wrong. You could have tried contacting any of us before posting a thread full of assumptions, implications and accusations. It's easy to discredit a group of people, but it's not easy to undo it.


These removals occurred not long after I pointed to the very little Central Asian Turkic ancestry found in the Turks of Artvin and Ardahan and their quite similar genetics to Georgians and Laz in my comments in one of the threads of a blog followed by the owners of Turkish DNA Project and gave the first link above (which then included Artvin and Ardahan Turks as well) as a proof.
The second spreadsheet
The samples from Artvin and Ardahan were not removed from the second spreadsheet, they were never there to begin with. The spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JEezl8YoZjOoNqnMoha9sWdMsvIwYYmV5ccljTkhryQ/edit?usp=sharing) is managed by Jiji (https://anthrogenica.com/member.php?9496-Jiji), he can also confirm it.

Edit history:

March 24 (a day before that blog post):
https://abload.de/img/24mart9rj63.png

March 28:
https://abload.de/img/28martgnji0.png

March 30:
https://abload.de/img/30martkhj5i.png

April 1:
https://abload.de/img/april1aukql.png

April 2:
https://abload.de/img/april2rojx3.png

April 12:
https://abload.de/img/april12cejcs.png

April 19:
https://abload.de/img/april19kjkwc.png

The website
The website is managed by Leper (https://anthrogenica.com/member.php?6302-Leper). The sample from Artvin was never there. It makes absolutely no sense to remove Artvin and leave Trabzon, Rize, Erzurum and Ardahan (which is genetically identical to Artvin).


The first spreadsheet
I updated the first spreadsheet with the new results provided by Crimean (https://anthrogenica.com/member.php?2792-Crimean) on May 14. He manages the transferring of public individual results from GEDmatch. The Artvin kit was removed from GEDmatch by its owner.
https://abload.de/img/gedjnkn0.png


1. Can you do me a favor and check the updated gedmatch spreadsheets on vahaduo (http://*************************/)? Do you see the averages of Meskhetian, East Anatolian, East Black Sea and Cypriot Turks? You do, right? Many of them have little-to-no Central Asian ancestry. They are not academic samples, so where do you think those samples come from? Let me enlighten you, the data are provided by our project.

2. There was simply no academic data from East Anatolia (which includes the Turkish-inhabited parts of Artvin and Ardahan) and Meskhetia. Turkish DNA project have collected samples from these regions/provinces and shared their results. We even sponsored an individual from Erzurum (where the level of Central Asian ancestry is very low) because the province was underrepresented.

3. Soon we will provide new samples to Davidski. East Anatolian Turks (who have lower levels of Central Asian ancestry) will also be represented on G25. Turkish_North will be updated because Giresun with relatively high level of Central Asian ancestry is currently overrepresented, we will balance it with new individuals from Kastamonu (who have lower levels of Central Asian ancestry).

4. Turks with little-to-no Central Asian ancestry (East Black Sea Turks, Meskhetian Turks etc.) are always labeled as Turks by our project.

5. The spreadsheets and the map contain East Black Sea and East Anatolian Turks with no Central Asian ancestry, we could have "removed" them too, aaright? We have simply no reason to remove any of our samples, we have no intention to hide anything. On the contrary, the genetic profiles of many non-sampled or undersampled provinces and regions were revealed by our project. There is always a solid reason if some samples are missing on the updated spreadsheets.

6. There are indeed people who think Turks from Trabzon are anything but Turkish. Some of them may even be very close to you. We are not part of those people.




Bear in mind that Artvin and Ardahan Turks are natives of their respective provinces, they do not have any genealogically traceable ancestry from any other province. Since the 1960s, some people (e.g., Fahrettin Kırzıoğlu) incorrectly labeled Artvin and Ardahan Turks as "Ahıska Turks", but in truth they have no genealogically traceable ancestry from Akhaltsikhe (Ahıska), Georgia, they are as native as it gets. For info on the matter (in Turkish):

https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ah%C4%...k%C3%BC_terimi
Yes, they are natives of their respective provinces. Artvin-Ardahan Turks and Ahıska Turks was seperated by the border, the former did not migrate. They are now collectively referred to as Ahıska Turks because they are culturally (and genetically) identical to each other.



During my military service in Turkey I saw one Trabzon Turk (who usually have no Central Asian Turkic ancestry) being mistreated and labeled "non-Turk" by a Pan-Turkist Turkish guy just because of being from Trabzon.
That's very unfortunate, I doubt that most people in Turkey are aware of Trabzon's genetic profile though.

What do you think the air quotes (“Ahıska Türkleri”) on that blog post mean by the way? The owner of the blog (Sevan Nişanyan) clearly implies that Meskhetian Turks are not Turks but I can't see any comment of yours rejecting the implication.

Gürcülerden bahis açmışken “Ahıska Türklerini” de es geçmeyelim. Türk milletinin oluşum öyküsü açısından ilginç bir konudur.
1992-93’ten sonra resmileşen öğretiye göre Artvin merkez ilçe ile Yusufeli, Ardanuç ve (Meydancık hariç) Şavşat ilçeleri ve Ardahan Posof halkı “Ahıska Türkü” sayılıyor. Adı geçen beş ilçenin özelliği, bu yerlerdeki “eski” yer adlarının yüzde 90 ila 92’sinin Gürcüce olması. Kalanlar Ermenice. Türkçe yer adı, son yüz yılda ihdas edilenler dışında, iki üç tane. Yüzde birden az.

Such labels are directed not only at Trabzon Turks, the Turkish ethnicity as a whole has been dealing with such implications and labels for years.

Onur Dincer
06-08-2020, 11:43 PM
Yes, you are totally wrong. You could have tried contacting any of us before posting a thread full of assumptions, implications and accusations. It's easy to discredit a group of people, but it's not easy to undo it.


The second spreadsheet
The samples from Artvin and Ardahan were not removed from the second spreadsheet, they were never there to begin with. The spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JEezl8YoZjOoNqnMoha9sWdMsvIwYYmV5ccljTkhryQ/edit?usp=sharing) is managed by Jiji (https://anthrogenica.com/member.php?9496-Jiji), he can also confirm it.

Edit history:

March 24 (a day before that blog post):
https://abload.de/img/24mart9rj63.png

March 28:
https://abload.de/img/28martgnji0.png

March 30:
https://abload.de/img/30martkhj5i.png

April 1:
https://abload.de/img/april1aukql.png

April 2:
https://abload.de/img/april2rojx3.png

April 12:
https://abload.de/img/april12cejcs.png

April 19:
https://abload.de/img/april19kjkwc.png

The website
The website is managed by Leper (https://anthrogenica.com/member.php?6302-Leper). The sample from Artvin was never there. It makes absolutely no sense to remove Artvin and leave Trabzon, Rize, Erzurum and Ardahan (which is genetically identical to Artvin).


The first spreadsheet
I updated the first spreadsheet with the new results provided by Crimean (https://anthrogenica.com/member.php?2792-Crimean) on May 14. He manages the transferring of public individual results from GEDmatch. The Artvin kit was removed from GEDmatch by its owner.
https://abload.de/img/gedjnkn0.png


1. Can you do me a favor and check the updated gedmatch spreadsheets on vahaduo (http://*************************/)? Do you see the averages of Meskhetian, East Anatolian, East Black Sea and Cypriot Turks? You do, right? Many of them have little-to-no Central Asian ancestry. They are not academic samples, so where do you think those samples come from? Let me enlighten you, the data are provided by our project.

2. There was simply no academic data from East Anatolia (which includes the Turkish-inhabited parts of Artvin and Ardahan) and Meskhetia. Turkish DNA project have collected samples from these regions/provinces and shared their results. We even sponsored an individual from Erzurum (where the level of Central Asian ancestry is very low) because the province was underrepresented.

3. Soon we will provide new samples to Davidski. East Anatolian Turks (who have lower levels of Central Asian ancestry) will also be represented on G25. Turkish_North will be updated because Giresun with relatively high level of Central Asian ancestry is currently overrepresented, we will balance it with new individuals from Kastamonu (who have lower levels of Central Asian ancestry).

4. Turks with little-to-no Central Asian ancestry (East Black Sea Turks, Meskhetian Turks etc.) are always labeled as Turks by our project.

5. The spreadsheets and the map contain East Black Sea and East Anatolian Turks with no Central Asian ancestry, we could have "removed" them too, aaright? We have simply no reason to remove any of our samples, we have no intention to hide anything. On the contrary, the genetic profiles of many non-sampled or undersampled provinces and regions were revealed by our project. There is always a solid reason if some samples are missing on the updated spreadsheets.

Thanks for the clarification about the second spreadsheet and the website, I was unsure about the second spreadsheet, but for the website my memory should have misled me, sorry for the confusion. As for the first spreadsheet, the removals happened not much after my blog comments I mentioned above in which I linked to it while explaining the very little Central Asian Turkic genetic influence in Artvin and Ardahan Turks (in a blog that I know you follow), that is what made me suspicious, especially since not just the Artvin Turkish samples but also the Ardahan Turkish sample were removed from it whereas the Ardahan Turkish sample remains in the other spreadsheet and the website. Also, as I recall, there were multiple Artvin Turkish samples in the first spreadsheet, not just one, were they all removed from GEDmatch?


6. There are indeed people who think Turks from Trabzon are anything but Turkish. Some of them may even be very close to you. We are not part of those people.

If some of them say that they are not Turkish, then I cannot enforce them to say that they are Turks. But saying that Trabzon Turks are not Turks and then using this as a justification for their mistreatment (I am not talking about you of course) is something different.


Yes, they are natives of their respective provinces. Artvin-Ardahan Turks and Ahıska Turks was seperated by the border, the former did not migrate. They are now collectively referred to as Ahıska Turks because they are culturally (and genetically) identical to each other.


Yes, I am aware of the similar culture and genetics of Artvin and Ardahan Turks to Ahıska Turks, but labeling all those Turkish groups as Ahıska Turks is no different from, say, labeling Niğde, Aksaray, Kayseri and Nevşehir Turks as Nevşehir Turks. Also, like I said, that Ahıska Turkish collective label does not go back to times before Kırzıoğlu's writings.


That's very unfortunate, I doubt that most people in Turkey are aware of Trabzon's genetic profile though.

That Pan-Turkist guy was an active Internet user in civilian life based on what he told me, so I would not be surprised if he knew about Trabzon genetics.


What do you think the air quotes (“Ahıska Türkleri”) on that blog post mean by the way? The owner of the blog (Sevan Nişanyan) clearly implies that Meskhetian Turks are not Turks but I can't see any comment of yours rejecting the implication.

Gürcülerden bahis açmışken “Ahıska Türklerini” de es geçmeyelim. Türk milletinin oluşum öyküsü açısından ilginç bir konudur.
1992-93’ten sonra resmileşen öğretiye göre Artvin merkez ilçe ile Yusufeli, Ardanuç ve (Meydancık hariç) Şavşat ilçeleri ve Ardahan Posof halkı “Ahıska Türkü” sayılıyor. Adı geçen beş ilçenin özelliği, bu yerlerdeki “eski” yer adlarının yüzde 90 ila 92’sinin Gürcüce olması. Kalanlar Ermenice. Türkçe yer adı, son yüz yılda ihdas edilenler dışında, iki üç tane. Yüzde birden az.

Like me, Nişanyan is criticizing the Ahıska Turkish collective labeling of Artvin and Ardahan Turks and the Kipchak origin stories about them, not the Turkish labeling of them. He is also talking about their origins and place names, which are in line with their genetic results, so I do not think you would object to them.


Such labels are directed not only at Trabzon Turks, the Turkish ethnicity as a whole has been dealing with such implications and labels for years.

That is another issue, but at least Nişanyan does not call Turks non-Turk, irrespective of their origins.

Buxoro
06-08-2020, 11:57 PM
“During my military service in Turkey I saw one Trabzon Turk (who usually have no Central Asian Turkic ancestry) being mistreated and labeled "non-Turk" by a Pan-Turkist Turkish guy just because of being from Trabzon”
To be fair sometimes opposite happens to Uzbek migrants in Turkey due to our racial differences

Onur Dincer
06-09-2020, 12:27 AM
“During my military service in Turkey I saw one Trabzon Turk (who usually have no Central Asian Turkic ancestry) being mistreated and labeled "non-Turk" by a Pan-Turkist Turkish guy just because of being from Trabzon”
To be fair sometimes opposite happens to Uzbek migrants in Turkey due to our racial differences

Do not know the situation with the Uzbek immigrants in Turkey (have not seen many), but at least I can confirm you about the treatment of an Uyghur immigrant girl I know from Turkey. She was being mocked by a Turkish boy due to her different looks. He was calling her "China" all the time. So yes, mistreatments can go both ways.

Buxoro
06-09-2020, 12:42 AM
Do not know the situation with the Uzbek immigrants in Turkey (have not seen many), but at least I can confirm you about the treatment of an Uyghur immigrant girl I know from Turkey. She was being mocked by a Turkish boy due to her different looks. He was calling her "China" all the time. So yes, mistreatments can go both ways.
What an evil irony mocking Uygur using word China considering current difficult situation of Uygur people in China
BTW Uygurs don’t look chinese and lot of their women are beautiful.

DMXX
06-09-2020, 02:05 AM
Agree as we may, let's please avoid politicising the discussion.

Jammies
06-09-2020, 02:13 AM
Removed post.

Leper
06-09-2020, 05:16 AM
@Onur

1-) You are mixing things up with Artvin. Couple years ago we only had 1 sample from there and that person has deleted his kit long time ago. We don't have his results saved either. So Artvin was never there to begin with.

2-) That fact you glanced at a single spreadsheet, you couldn't see Ardahan there and decided to come up with such a post full of assumptions is disappointing. You should have at least asked us first.

3-) The story you mentioned about so called discrimination against Turks from Trabzon was totally out of place as well. As you know, most people here are not accustomed to stuff in Turkey and telling such individual vivid stories can only mislead people from the reality.

Onur Dincer
06-09-2020, 05:49 AM
@Onur

1-) You are mixing things up with Artvin. Couple years ago we only had 1 sample from there and that person has deleted his kit long time ago. We don't have his results saved either. So Artvin was never there to begin with.

2-) That fact you glanced at a single spreadsheet, you couldn't see Ardahan there and decided to come up with such a post full of assumptions is disappointing. You should have at least asked us first.

I wrote my relevant comments in Nişanyan's blog in April this year, not years ago. Back then there were several Artvin Turkish results and one Ardahan Turkish result in your first spreadsheet I linked to, but sometime after my comments they were all removed.


3-) The story you mentioned about so called discrimination against Turks from Trabzon was totally out of place as well. As you know, most people here are not accustomed to stuff in Turkey and telling such individual vivid stories can only mislead people from the reality.

Such kinds of discriminations happen in every country and I did not generalize my experience. I mentioned it because, like Trabzon Turks, Artvin and Ardahan Turks lack or have very little ancestry from Central Asia and removal of such Turks from genetic databases or their non-inclusion in them can be misused by groups that define Turkishness based on genetic or racial considerations.

Alkaevli
06-09-2020, 07:30 AM
Thanks for the clarification about the second spreadsheet and the website, I was unsure about the second spreadsheet, but for the website my memory should have misled me, sorry for the confusion. As for the first spreadsheet, the removals happened not much after my blog comments I mentioned above in which I linked to it while explaining the very little Central Asian Turkic genetic influence in Artvin and Ardahan Turks (in a blog that I know you follow), that is what made me suspicious, especially since not just the Artvin Turkish samples but also the Ardahan Turkish sample were removed from it whereas the Ardahan Turkish sample remains in the other spreadsheet and the website. Also, as I recall, there were multiple Artvin Turkish samples in the first spreadsheet, not just one, were they all removed from GEDmatch?
There was only one Turkish sample from Artvin, the other Artvin samples we have are Georgians from the other parts of Artvin (https://abload.de/img/123ztjo4.png) and they were not displayed on the spreadsheets.

Being suspicious must not be enough to discredit a project, you could have easily contacted one of us. If we had such an intention, we would have removed not only Artvin but also North Erzurum, Rize, Trabzon and others with similar autosomal DNA. I myself have stated many times on this forum and elsewhere that most Turks from Trabzon, Rize and Northeast Anatolia have little to no Central Asian ancestry.

I don't follow that blog, I'm not really fan of reading hatred contents. The guy's commentary on the earthquake in Elazığ was obnoxious enough. I used to receive messages (from my contacts) directing me to his blog posts, and that specific post about Mekshetian Turks was not one of them. I didn't even know you gave our website's link as a proof until I read the comments yesterday. I don't even disagree with you on the region's genetics.



Yes, I am aware of the similar culture and genetics of Artvin and Ardahan Turks to Ahıska Turks, but labeling all those Turkish groups as Ahıska Turks is no different from, say, labeling Niğde, Aksaray, Kayseri and Nevşehir Turks as Nevşehir Turks. Also, like I said, that Ahıska Turkish collective label does not go back to times before Kırzıoğlu's writings.
I'm not advocating the label, I'm just saying that the label doesn't indicate a migration from the Georgian side, it is just used refer to communities of Transcaucasian Turks with similar cultures.



Like me, Nişanyan is criticizing the Ahıska Turkish collective labeling of Artvin and Ardahan Turks and the Kipchak origin stories about them, not the Turkish labeling of them. He is also talking about their origins and place names, which are in line with their genetic results, so I do not think you would object to them.
So, he has no problem with them identifying as Turkish? So be it. :)


If some of them say that they are not Turkish, then I cannot enforce them to say that they are Turks. But saying that Trabzon Turks are not Turks and then using this as a justification for their mistreatment (I am not talking about you of course) is something different.
It's not about the way they identify themselves.



Do not know the situation with the Uzbek immigrants in Turkey (have not seen many), but at least I can confirm you about the treatment of an Uyghur immigrant girl I know from Turkey. She was being mocked by a Turkish boy due to her different looks. He was calling her "China" all the time. So yes, mistreatments can go both ways.
Both stories are misleading. In reality, Trabzon Turks are not mistreated at all, they are overrepresented in every layer of the Turkish society, too many of our leading politicians are from Trabzon and its surroundings, and Turks in general have no problem with it.

The image of Uyghurs on the other hand is extremely positive among Turks, and the Uyghur immigrants are well treated. Most Turks are concerned about the Uyghur issue and even pressure the politicians to raise their voices.

I don't like getting dragged into politics.

Onur Dincer
06-09-2020, 08:16 AM
There was only one Turkish sample from Artvin, the other Artvin samples we have are Georgians from the other parts of Artvin (https://abload.de/img/123ztjo4.png) and they were not displayed on the spreadsheets.

Being suspicious must not be enough to discredit a project, you could have easily contacted one of us. If we had such an intention, we would have removed not only Artvin but also North Erzurum, Rize, Trabzon and others with similar autosomal DNA. I myself have stated many times on this forum and elsewhere that most Turks from Trabzon, Rize and Northeast Anatolia have little to no Central Asian ancestry.

I do not remember the exact number of Artvin Turks in your spreadsheet I linked to in Nişanyan's blog before the removals, but, as far as I remember, there were multiple Artvin Turkish samples in that spreadsheet. Anyway, you also removed the Ardahan Turkish sample from that spreadsheet whereas that sample still remains in your other spreadsheet and your website.


I don't follow that blog, I'm not really fan of reading hatred contents. The guy's commentary on the earthquake in Elazığ was obnoxious enough. I used to receive messages (from my contacts) directing me to his blog posts, and that specific post about Mekshetian Turks was not one of them. I didn't even know you gave our website's link as a proof until I read the comments yesterday. I don't even disagree with you on the region's genetics.

By following I do not necessarily mean following everything written there. I know from your past comments in that blog (e.g., the ones here (http://nisanyan1.blogspot.com/2018/10/ckan-dort-bolumun-ozeti.html?showComment=1541444552256#c341142017343 1602014)) that you read what is written there at least from time to time, but of course it is not possible for me to know how much you follow that blog. I follow that blog regularly and occasionally write comments in it, but that of course does not mean that I agree with everything the owner of that blog writes.


I'm not advocating the label, I'm just saying that the label doesn't indicate a migration from the Georgian side, it is just used refer to communities of Transcaucasian Turks with similar cultures.

I have seen some people who really believe that they all migrated from Ahıska. That is the result of inventing such misleading labels. But since you do not advocate that label, no need to continue this debate.


So, he has no problem with them identifying as Turkish? So be it. :)

As a regular follower of his writings and videos, I can answer with a yes. He has no problem with the Turkish identifications as far as I see, he has problem with made-up origin stories.


It's not about the way they identify themselves.

I did not understand what you meant by that. Can you elaborate?


Both stories are misleading. In reality, Trabzon Turks are not mistreated at all, they are overrepresented in every layer of the Turkish society, too many of our leading politicians are from Trabzon and its surroundings, and Turks in general have no problem with it.

The image of Uyghurs on the other hand is extremely positive among Turks, and the Uyghur immigrants are well treated. Most Turks are concerned about the Uyghur issue and even pressure the politicians to raise their voices.

I don't like getting dragged into politics.

Like I said, I was not making a generalization based on my experiences, I mentioned them under specific contexts. I already explained the context of the first one, the second one was in response to Buxoro's statements.

basmaci
06-17-2020, 01:25 PM
lol,Seems troll threads can also happens in antrogenica.

Johnny ola
06-17-2020, 01:47 PM
I am wondering if we are going to have samples from Sinope,Amasya,Samsun etc provinces.Do we know how much of central asian % the people score in western Pontus?As i know Giresun is the most central asian admixed city in the region of Pontus-Black sea.Also do we have any gedmatch from Western black sea?And if yes,does the people there shift to Caucasus like Trabzon,Rize,Artvin etc..!!!

Johnny ola
06-17-2020, 01:53 PM
Btw it is funny Turks to do not consider Trabzon and Rize people as Turks because Erdogan got his roots from Eastern black sea as we all know.So it is very likely Erdogan to have laz-Georgian-Pontic roots.Also the new politician Ekrem İmamoğlu has origins from Trabzon.Actually most politicians from Turkey coming from Black sea/Pontus area.

Afshar
06-17-2020, 05:20 PM
Btw it is funny Turks to do not consider Trabzon and Rize people as Turks because Erdogan got his roots from Eastern black sea as we all know.So it is very likely Erdogan to have laz-Georgian-Pontic roots.Also the new politician Ekrem İmamoğlu has origins from Trabzon.Actually most politicians from Turkey coming from Black sea/Pontus area.

I think you wrote in the wrong forum.

Onur Dincer
06-17-2020, 05:55 PM
lol,Seems troll threads can also happens in antrogenica.

Making some valid points and asking some valid questions are not called troll in my book. Fortunately the respondents do not think like you and have already addressed most even if not all of the arguments and questions.

Onur Dincer
06-17-2020, 06:01 PM
I am wondering if we are going to have samples from Sinope,Amasya,Samsun etc provinces.Do we know how much of central asian % the people score in western Pontus?As i know Giresun is the most central asian admixed city in the region of Pontus-Black sea.Also do we have any gedmatch from Western black sea?And if yes,does the people there shift to Caucasus like Trabzon,Rize,Artvin etc..!!!

Some of the links I gave in the initial post of this thread can be informative about that as they include GEDmatch results of Turks from the provinces of West and Central Pontus too. As for Giresun, only certain parts of Giresun are high in Central Asian admixture, the southern parts are generally low in that.

Onur Dincer
06-17-2020, 06:12 PM
Btw it is funny Turks to do not consider Trabzon and Rize people as Turks because Erdogan got his roots from Eastern black sea as we all know.So it is very likely Erdogan to have laz-Georgian-Pontic roots.Also the new politician Ekrem İmamoğlu has origins from Trabzon.Actually most politicians from Turkey coming from Black sea/Pontus area.

I could try to give an answer to your points, but since political discussions are not allowed in this forum, it is better we stop here.

Johnny ola
06-17-2020, 06:32 PM
Some of the links I gave in the initial post of this thread can be informative about that as they include GEDmatch results of Turks from the provinces of western and central Pontus too. As for Giresun, only certain parts of Giresun are high in Central Asian admixture, the southern parts are generally low in that.

I think Pontus is a very unsampled region with exception Trabzon and the Eastern parts and as we know cities like Trabzon, Artvin, Rize belong to the Caucasian(Colchian-kartvelian) spectrum. The differences of Trabzonians and Laz with Georgians have to do with the increase of Anatolian N admixture in the former while Georgians seems to be mostly a Kura-Araxes-Maykop orffshout. I think the western parts of Pontus and cities like Sinop, Amasya, Neokesarya, Samsun will be less Caucasian shifted and more close to Cappadocian Greeks. I have seen only one gedmatch kit from an Pontian-American with ancestry from Amasya and Sinop. He was less West Asian admixed and his steppe admixture was really decent. The central Asian input in Pontus remains still a question.Yes eastern Pontus have limited to almost non of Central Asian input. Giresun(central Pontus) shows a decent amount of central Asian admixture while the western parts are unsampled. I think Sinop will might have a decent amount of turkish admixture. If I am not mistaken the danishmeds arrived in the western Pontus at some time.

Johnny ola
06-17-2020, 06:35 PM
With exception Trabzon** fixed.

Alkaevli
06-17-2020, 06:52 PM
I am wondering if we are going to have samples from Sinope,Amasya,Samsun etc provinces.Do we know how much of central asian % the people score in western Pontus?As i know Giresun is the most central asian admixed city in the region of Pontus-Black sea.Also do we have any gedmatch from Western black sea?And if yes,does the people there shift to Caucasus like Trabzon,Rize,Artvin etc..!!!
Genetic profiles dramatically change when you move from Trabzon to the west. Giresun-like genetic profile begins in Trabzon's westernmost districts.

Turkish_North on G25 consists of samples from western and central Black Sea provinces.
https://abload.de/img/5552ajf9.png


Btw it is funny Turks to do not consider Trabzon and Rize people as Turks because Erdogan got his roots from Eastern black sea as we all know.So it is very likely Erdogan to have laz-Georgian-Pontic roots.Also the new politician Ekrem İmamoğlu has origins from Trabzon.Actually most politicians from Turkey coming from Black sea/Pontus area.
I have no idea about the mainland Greek perception of Asia Minor/Black Sea migrants, but the claim that Turks of Trabzon and Rize are not considered Turks is utterly false. They are Turks. The individual mentioned in Onur's post doesn't represent the entire Turkish population.

Can we leave politics out of this?


Some of the links I gave in the initial post of this thread can be informative about that as they include GEDmatch results of Turks from the provinces of western and central Pontus too. As for Giresun, only certain parts of Giresun are high in Central Asian admixture, the southern parts are generally low in that.
Şebinkarahisar, Alucra and Çamoluk districts, which were part of the sanjak of Karahisar-ı Şarki along with Suşehri in Sivas and Mesudiye in Ordu, are genetically closer to interior parts of Anatolia. The dialect spoken there is also closer to the dialects spoken in central parts. The rest of Giresun is quite homogeneous genetically.
https://abload.de/img/giresun_districtszbjll.png
https://abload.de/img/wuiycgcuoxa11xnkgi.jpg


Giresun(central Pontus) shows a decent amount of central Asian admixture while the western parts are unsampled. I think Sinop will might have a decent amount of turkish admixture. If I am not mistaken the danishmeds arrived in the western Pontus at some time.
The western Black Sea region is not unsampled.
https://abload.de/img/westbqhkvi.png

The coastal parts of Kastamonu and westernmost districts of Sinop seem to have relatively low levels of Central Asian ancestry. But more samples are needed from that part of Sinop.

Onur Dincer
06-17-2020, 06:54 PM
I think Pontus is a very unsampled region with exception Pontus and the Eastern parts and as we know cities like Trabzon, Art in, Rize belong to the Caucasian(Colchian-kartvelian) spectrum. The differences of Trabzonians and Laz wit Georgians have to do with the increase of Anatolian N admixture in the former while Georgians seems to be mostly a Kura-Araxes-Maykop orffshout. I think the western parts of Pontus and cities like Sinop, Amasya, Neokesarya, Samsun will be less Caucasian shifted and more close to Cappadocian Greeks. I have seen only one gedmatch kit from an Pontian-American with ancestry from Amasya and Sinop. He was less West Asian admixed and his steppe admixture was really decent. The central Asian input in Pontus remains still a qustion.Yes eastern Pontus have limited to almost non of Central Asian input. Giresun(central Pontus) shows a decent amount of central Asian admixture while the western parts are unsampled. I think Sinop will might have a decent amount of turkish admixture. If I am not mistaken the danishmeds arrived in the western Pontus at some time.

The modern Laz of NE Turkey, in accordance with their medieval-era arrival from the lands of the Kingdom of Lazica in what is now western Georgia, are genetically between the Georgians and the East Pontians (the Turks, Greeks and Armenians/Hamshenis of East Pontus) but clearly closer to Georgians:

https://nezihseven.wordpress.com/2020/05/04/dna/

Rize Turks are genetically East Pontians and are thus like Trabzon.

Yes, we need especially more West and Central Pontian Greek genetic results. Your Ordu Greek mother's results should give you a rough idea.

No, Sinop (Sinope) Turks do not have high Central Asian admixture in general, and Sinop never passed to the Danishmend control, it was mostly controlled by the Byzantine Empire and its Trapezuntine offshoot until 1265, when it conclusively passed to Turkish/Muslim rule.

Onur Dincer
06-17-2020, 07:07 PM
Şebinkarahisar, Alucra and Çamoluk districts, which were part of the sanjak of Karahisar-ı Şarki along with Suşehri in Sivas and Mesudiye in Ordu, are genetically closer to interior parts of Anatolia. The dialect spoken there is also closer to the dialects spoken in central parts. The rest of Giresun is quite homogeneous genetically.
https://abload.de/img/giresun_districtszbjll.png
https://abload.de/img/wuiycgcuoxa11xnkgi.jpg


But still there is some significant variation in Central Asian ancestry in the rest of Giresun. Though I agree that in general it is not as low as in southern Giresun.

Johnny ola
06-17-2020, 07:09 PM
Genetic profiles dramatically change when you move from Trabzon to the west. Giresun-like genetic profile begins in Trabzon's westernmost districts.

Turkish_North on G25 consists of samples from western and central Black Sea provinces.
https://abload.de/img/5552ajf9.png


I have no idea about the mainland Greek perception of Asia Minor/Black Sea migrants, but the claim that Turks of Trabzon and Rize are not considered Turks is utterly false. They are Turks. The individual mentioned in Onur's post doesn't represent the entire Turkish population.

Can we leave politics out of this?


Şebinkarahisar, Alucra and Çamoluk districts, which were part of the sanjak of Karahisar-ı Şarki along with Suşehri in Sivas and Mesudiye in Ordu, are genetically closer to interior parts of Anatolia. The dialect spoken there is also closer to the dialects spoken in central parts. The rest of Giresun is quite homogeneous genetically.
https://abload.de/img/giresun_districtszbjll.png
https://abload.de/img/wuiycgcuoxa11xnkgi.jpg


The western Black Sea region is not unsampled.
https://abload.de/img/westbqhkvi.png

The coastal parts of Kastamonu and westernmost districts of Sinop seem to have relatively low levels of Central Asian ancestry. But more samples are needed from that part of Sinop.


Ty for your post. I am mostly interested to cities/regions like Samsun, Sinope, Amasya, Nikser etc. Do you know if the people there are such CHG shifted like the people from Trabzon, Rize and Artvin provinces? Do they have typical turkish results?

Alkaevli
06-17-2020, 07:27 PM
Ty for your post. I am mostly interested to cities/regions like Samsun, Sinope, Amasya, Nikser etc. Do you know if the people there are such CHG shifted like the people from Trabzon, Rize and Artvin provinces? Do they have typical turkish results?
I haven't seen any Turk from Samsun, Sinop, Amasya or Niksar/Tokat resembling Trabzon.

All Turks harbor CHG and Iran_N-related ancestry, but not as much as Turks from Trabzon and Rize do.

Alkaevli
06-17-2020, 07:40 PM
The modern Laz of NE Turkey, in accordance with their medieval-era arrival from the lands of the Kingdom of Lazica in what is now western Georgia, are genetically between the Georgians and the East Pontians (the Turks, Greeks and Armenians/Hamshenis of East Pontus) but clearly closer to Georgians:

Rize Turks (n=4) appear closer to Hemshin and Laz than to Pontic Greeks on Dodecad K12b.
https://justpaste.it/img/f307456f9510d8b741e7fa95f567418e.png

Johnny ola
06-17-2020, 07:41 PM
I haven't any Turk from Samsun, Sinop, Amasya or Niksar/Tokat genetically resembling Trabzon.

All Turks harbor CHG and Iran_N-related ancestry, but not as much as Turks from Trabzon and Rize do.

Ty. Like i mention the cities of trabzon, rize, artvin represent the Colchian culture during IA period.

I think if we delete the east Asian/siberian from the western Black sea provrinces we have populations similar to Cappadocian Greeks.

Johnny ola
06-17-2020, 07:44 PM
Btw My ancestry is coming from Gumushane. This province was inhabit by Trabzon colonizers as i know.

Onur Dincer
06-17-2020, 07:51 PM
Rize Turks (n=4) appear closer to Hemshin and Laz than to Pontic Greeks on Dodecad K12b.
https://justpaste.it/img/f307456f9510d8b741e7fa95f567418e.png

Well, at least the Global 25-based results contradict them. The Laz are genetically intermediate between the Georgians and the East Pontians anyway.

Alkaevli
06-17-2020, 07:54 PM
Ty. Like i mention the cities of trabzon, rize, artvin represent the Colchian culture during IA period.

I think if we delete the east Asian/siberian from the western Black sea provrinces we have populations similar to Cappadocian Greeks.

Not that simple. Judging from the medieval Turkic samples we have, Oghuz/Turkmen tribes must have brought West Eurasian ancestry that can be modeled as a mixture of Steppe_BA and BMAC. Also, pre-Turkic population of NW Anatolia must have been more steppe-shifted than central Anatolian Greeks.

Johnny ola
06-17-2020, 08:00 PM
Not that simple. Judging from the medieval Turkic samples we have, Oghuz/Turkmen tribes must have brought West Eurasian ancestry that can be modeled as a mixture of Steppe_BA and BMAC. Also, pre-Turkic population of NW Anatolia must have been more steppe-shifted than central Anatolian Greeks.

Yes. The Pontic guy from sinope and amasya has a good amount of steppe(probably Hittite, phrygian, etc) unlike the people from Trabzon who lack steppe/EHG.

Onur Dincer
06-17-2020, 08:13 PM
Ty. Like i mention the cities of trabzon, rize, artvin represent the Colchian culture during IA period.

I think if we delete the east Asian/siberian from the western Black sea provrinces we have populations similar to Cappadocian Greeks.

I think this experiment by Alkaevli in which he gives GEDmatch results of various Turkish averages and the averages of various other nearby populations and then does the same but this time removing the East Eurasian and South Asian components of the Turkish populations can give you an idea.

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