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Kmak111
06-08-2020, 01:44 AM
If R1b-M269(or L23) is Proto-Indo-European. R1a1a(or R1a1) is Para-Proto-Indo-European?

Kmak111
06-13-2020, 12:30 PM
What do you think about it?

Generalissimo
06-13-2020, 12:31 PM
What do you think about it?

Sounds like nonsense. R1a was Proto-Indo-European.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/05/inferring-linguistic-affinity-of-long.html

Kmak111
06-13-2020, 01:21 PM
Sounds like nonsense. R1a was Proto-Indo-European.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/05/inferring-linguistic-affinity-of-long.html


If R1a was Proto-Indo-European, R1b is Para-Proto-Indo-European.

parasar
06-13-2020, 02:43 PM
If R1b-M269(or L23) is Proto-Indo-European. R1a1a(or R1a1) is Para-Proto-Indo-European?

Both are LPIE.

rms2
06-13-2020, 03:13 PM
Both are LPIE.

L for lucky?

So, which haplogroups were EPIE?

tipirneni
06-13-2020, 07:12 PM
Q might have been the original Steppe groups along with few C/D roaming in the vastness

During Upper Paleo era, R* started developing into mammoth hunter groups like Malta boy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%27ta%E2%80%93Buret%27_culture some 25k ybp

R1a would have crossed the Caucasus during the Neolithic, alongside R1b, to colonise the Pontic-Caspian Steppe where it branched off into many later clades & mixed with CHG to later colonize Europe.

Today 99% of modern R1a descends from the branch R1a-M417 which suggests R1a was not strong during the Neolithic era.

Whereas the oldest forms of R1b (M343, P25, L389) are found dispersed at very low frequencies from Western Europe to India, a vast region where could have roamed the nomadic R1b hunter-gatherers during the Ice Age. R1b probably spread into Middle East during Neolithic with cattle culture & later spread into Europe learning languages from the Neolithic groups to form the PIE.

The two oldest archaeological sites showing signs of cattle domestication are the villages of Çayönü Tepesi in southeastern Turkey and Dja'de el-Mughara in northern Iraq, two sites only 250 km away from each others. This is presumably the area from which R1b lineages started expanding - or in other words the "original homeland" of R1b. (eupedia)

alan
06-13-2020, 07:52 PM
Waste of time trying to tie down really remote linguistic spreads as we can never have a shred of proof. All we can see is population spread, melting pots and networks but there are lots of them, lots of phases etc. In general you are best to work back from what you know to what you dont know and truth is once you are past the bronze age it will almost entirely be dont know.

Ive said this a few times but the only way to work out any genetic-linguistic correlatations (and simple correlation is unlikely after the neolithic due to widespread networking) then start by looking a the genes of people who you know for sure spoke each language. In most of Europe beyond the Med. and Alps that is going to mean the last centuries BC and 1st couple AD. Before that, only a very few places will have certain historic or inscription evidence of their language or historical references specific to the area. These people are by definition Celts, Germanics or whatever as those terms are meaningless if they dont speak the languages.

The opposite approach - deciding a culture that existed many centuries before any language data exists must be proto-Celtic or proto-Germanic or whatever then wondering why proven speakers of them dont fit perfectly is a monumentally stupid method and ridiculously unscientific and full of assumptions.

rms2
06-13-2020, 11:26 PM
. . .

Whereas the oldest forms of R1b (M343, P25, L389) are found dispersed at very low frequencies from Western Europe to India, a vast region where could have roamed the nomadic R1b hunter-gatherers during the Ice Age . . .

Where's the L389 among HGs in Central or Western Europe?

But I agree with you about HGs wandering far and wide over Eurasia.

What is key, IMHO, is that one doesn't see any R1b-M269 turning up west of the steppe during the Neolithic Period until the advent of steppe pastoralists as the 3rd millennium BC begins and proceeds.

Kmak111
06-14-2020, 12:04 AM
Original language of R1a and original language of R1b are same origin. I think, If Earliest Proto-Indo-European is language of R1b peoples, original language of R1a peoples is Para-Proto-Indo-European, If Earliest Proto-Indo-European is language of R1a peoples, original language of R1b peoples is Para-Proto-Indo-European.

tipirneni
06-14-2020, 12:19 AM
Original language of R1a and original language of R1b are same origin. I think, If Earliest Proto-Indo-European is language of R1b peoples, original language of R1a peoples is Para-Proto-Indo-European, If Earliest Proto-Indo-European is language of R1a peoples, original language of R1b peoples is Para-Proto-Indo-European.

When there is no records at 16k YBP or at 6k YBP how do you say they are same language. The old europe culture seem to have influenced big on the original PIE from earlier Venus figurine culture. But we don't know if it is single event or multiple movements as suggested in many documents. But even the Malta boy location had some of those Venus figurines which shows that there was some kind of people movement from earliest times but we can't find out yet.

https://isaw.nyu.edu/exhibitions/oldeurope/introduction.html
http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/serbiavinca.htm

Kmak111
06-14-2020, 02:21 AM
When there is no records at 16k YBP or at 6k YBP how do you say they are same language. The old europe culture seem to have influenced big on the original PIE from earlier Venus figurine culture. But we don't know if it is single event or multiple movements as suggested in many documents. But even the Malta boy location had some of those Venus figurines which shows that there was some kind of people movement from earliest times but we can't find out yet.

https://isaw.nyu.edu/exhibitions/oldeurope/introduction.html
http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/serbiavinca.htm

Original language of R1a and original language of R1b are descent from R1 language. both are descent R1 language.

tipirneni
06-14-2020, 03:26 AM
Original language of R1a and original language of R1b are descent from R1 language. both are descent R1 language.

Do you have proof that R1 people had language? Where was R1 people present ? Are they distinct from Q & P people ? Why is that Venus figurines from Europe Paleo culture shows up in eastern steppe but no Vestonice admix found in Malta? Did R1 people knew about the old Europe culture of Vinca & Danube valley ?

No one has proofs on these.

Looks like R1b had some interaction with Neolithic people so they picked up some ancient languages & developed their proto PIE like language from those and were joined by R1a later.

Kmak111
06-14-2020, 07:55 AM
Do you have proof that R1 people had language? Where was R1 people present ? Are they distinct from Q & P people ? Why is that Venus figurines from Europe Paleo culture shows up in eastern steppe but no Vestonice admix found in Malta? Did R1 people knew about the old Europe culture of Vinca & Danube valley ?

No one has proofs on these.

Looks like R1b had some interaction with Neolithic people so they picked up some ancient languages & developed their proto PIE like language from those and were joined by R1a later.

R1 people not from europe but siberia. Of course R1 people have language. Every lineage have language.

Coldmountains
06-14-2020, 05:30 PM
These discussions are leading to nothing and not really that relevant. Maybe earliest PIE was spoken by some I2a or Q1 folks and R1 man adopted the language. Maybe R1b was PIE and R1a adopted the language or the other way around. All of these endless scenarios could happen and can neither be really disproven or proven. We should rather stick to the facts and discuss what made R1a/R1b so sucessful in spreading their uniparental markers and IE languages.

I am rather waiting for more ancient genomes from Sredny Stog, Ukraine/Belarus and eastern Corded Ware to understand better how R1a-Z283, R1a-Z93 and R1a-L51 spread. Let hope they are of good quality and from different sites so that both we R1a and R1b men get satifisied

Kmak111
06-15-2020, 01:41 AM
These discussions are leading to nothing and not really that relevant. Maybe earliest PIE was spoken by some I2a or Q1 folks and R1 man adopted the language. Maybe R1b was PIE and R1a adopted the language or the other way around. All of these endless scenarios could happen and can neither be really disproven or proven. We should rather stick to the facts and discuss what made R1a/R1b so sucessful in spreading their uniparental markers and IE languages.

I am rather waiting for more ancient genomes from Sredny Stog, Ukraine/Belarus and eastern Corded Ware to understand better how R1a-Z283, R1a-Z93 and R1a-L51 spread. Let hope they are of good quality and from different sites so that both we R1a and R1b men get satifisied

According to linguist, PIE is language of Eastern-Hunter-Gatherer. I2 is not Eastern-Hunter-Gatherer marker.

tipirneni
06-15-2020, 12:38 PM
According to linguist, PIE is language of Eastern-Hunter-Gatherer. I2 is not Eastern-Hunter-Gatherer marker.

No, PIE didn't come purely from East. That is the real research now. it might have been in Pontic or in Baltic area.

The EHG had Finno-Ugric language which is found in many civilizations prior to arrival of R1b/R1a people. Keltominar is one example but it extends all the way to siberia & finnland & hungary

Kmak111
06-16-2020, 10:58 AM
No, PIE didn't come purely from East. That is the real research now. it might have been in Pontic or in Baltic area.

The EHG had Finno-Ugric language which is found in many civilizations prior to arrival of R1b/R1a people. Keltominar is one example but it extends all the way to siberia & finnland & hungary

N1c1 tribes speak Finno-ugric language firstly. R1a/R1b people who spoke Finno-ugric or ugric, is assimilated by ugric tribes.

tipirneni
06-16-2020, 01:40 PM
N1c1 tribes speak Finno-ugric language firstly. R1a/R1b people who spoke Finno-ugric or ugric, is assimilated by ugric tribes.

N1 are most probably learned these languages from Q people & moved into Europe to win over few places. Later they slowly mixed with R1b/R1a people over many millenia (not centuries!).

parasar
06-20-2020, 11:00 PM
...Maybe R1b was PIE and R1a adopted the language or the other way around. All of these endless scenarios could happen and can neither be really disproven or proven...

Decipherment of the language of IVC will do a lot to prove or disprove the relationship of R1a and R1b with PIE.