PDA

View Full Version : Haplogroup E in Iraq



Halgurd
06-12-2020, 01:47 PM
I was wondering if there is any good data on haplogroup distribution in Iraq, specifically on E-M78 and E-V13. There was this (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5669434/) study done but it did not go beyond e1b1b.

Farroukh
06-13-2020, 11:06 AM
E-BY5787 is Middle Eastern downstream of E-V13 (V13-->Z1057-->CTS1273-->BY3880-->Y16729-->BY5787

Julian's Persian War in IV cent. AD is one of possible ways.

In general nowadays Iraq inhabited by all basic downstreams of E-M35&M2

Lupriac
06-13-2020, 10:55 PM
E-BY5787 is Middle Eastern downstream of E-V13 (V13-->Z1057-->CTS1273-->BY3880-->Y16729-->BY5787

Julian's Persian War in IV cent. AD is one of possible ways.

In general nowadays Iraq inhabited by all basic downstreams of E-M35&M2

How do you think E-V22 and E-V12 got in to the Iraqi population? Is it possible through the Akkadian migration from the Levant, or possibly a later incursion of Aramaeans?

Farroukh
06-14-2020, 09:44 AM
How do you think E-V22 and E-V12 got in to the Iraqi population? Is it possible through the Akkadian migration from the Levant, or possibly a later incursion of Aramaeans?
... and from ancient Yemen too

Halgurd
06-14-2020, 09:58 AM
E-BY5787 is Middle Eastern downstream of E-V13 (V13-->Z1057-->CTS1273-->BY3880-->Y16729-->BY5787

Julian's Persian War in IV cent. AD is one of possible ways.

In general nowadays Iraq inhabited by all basic downstreams of E-M35&M2

Thanks, this seems be different to Kurdish E-V13 clades.

Farroukh
06-14-2020, 10:05 AM
Common nodes of:
E-V12 in Iraq (https://yfull.com/tree/E-FGC14382/)
E-V13 in Iraq (https://yfull.com/tree/E-BY5787/)
E-V22 in Iraq (https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y20282/)
E-M2 in Iraq (https://yfull.com/tree/E-Z1704/)

Farroukh
06-14-2020, 12:13 PM
this seems be different to Kurdish E-V13 clades.
Which E-V13 subclade do you belong to?

Halgurd
06-14-2020, 12:19 PM
Which E-V13 subclade do you belong to?

I’m not sure I haven’t been tested further but 1 Kurd belongs to E-CTS5856* negative for all downstream clades and another (Druze with Kurdish origins) belongs to Z40644.

Farroukh
06-14-2020, 01:18 PM
Can you post your Y-STRs here?

1 Kurd belongs to E-CTS5856*
Is this BigY result?

Druze with Kurdish origins) belongs to Z40644.
He belongs to E-BY5024

I see no specific Kurdish subclades of E-V13 (if I understand you right y mean "Kurdish=Kurmanji")

Halgurd
06-14-2020, 01:58 PM
Is this BigY result?

I believe so. It’s from here (http://corduene.blogspot.com/2016/03/kurdish-tribes-y-dna-haplogroups.html)
His ftdna ID is 536478.

I am on there too under Balakan.



He belongs to E-BY5024

I see no specific Kurdish subclades of E-V13 (if I understand you right y mean "Kurdish=Kurmanji")

I mean the sub clades of E-V13 that I have seen Kurds belong to so far, not specific Kurdish ones.

Farroukh
06-14-2020, 02:45 PM
Do you have Y-STR matches? I see only a few members E-M34 of Dersim project, not E-V13

Halgurd
06-14-2020, 03:02 PM
Do you have Y-STR matches?

I tested with 23andme so I don’t have any matches like that. I am thinking of doing ftdna but honestly I don’t think it will tell me any information that I don’t already know.


I see only a few members E-M34 of Dersim project, not E-V13

The ones I’m talking about are:

Baabe - E1b1b1-M35>M78>V13>CTS5856* - Silêmanî, Soranî FTDNA: 536478

Joumblatt (Canbolad) - E1b1b1-M35>M78>V13>Z40644 - Lebanon, Kurmanji FTDNA: M10306

Farroukh
06-14-2020, 03:13 PM
I am thinking of doing ftdna but honestly I don’t think it will tell me any information that I don’t already know.
E-V13 is too abstract node and gives only general info. Try to get Y-DNA tests at FTDNA.

P.S. Dımıli people trace they ancestral homeland to Daylam, like mine too.

Halgurd
06-14-2020, 05:09 PM
Found this on twitter

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5MDb-uW4AA_Q3x?format=png&name=medium

Aspar
06-14-2020, 05:45 PM
E-BY5787 is Middle Eastern downstream of E-V13 (V13-->Z1057-->CTS1273-->BY3880-->Y16729-->BY5787

Julian's Persian War in IV cent. AD is one of possible ways.

In general nowadays Iraq inhabited by all basic downstreams of E-M35&M2

That's likely if we take yfull's TMRCA estimated date for this particular subclade which is estimated to around a thousand ybp but because it's downstream subclade BY40482's TMRCA is 1600 ybp, the TMRCA for BY40482 is applied for BY5787 as well.

Now the TMRCA of 1600 ybp is the middle point between the TMRCA of the sample with the most private variants, i.e 2280 ybp and the TMRCA of the sample with the least private variants, i.e 944 ybp.

In other words, the progenitor of BY5787 could have landed in the countries of the Arabian/Persian Gulf anytime between those two aforementioned dates.

Therefore there might be many different explanations of how this subclade might have ended up in those countries.

Also we have to consider the fact that this subclade might have a lot more older presence there and a local founder effect after long bottleneck might have leaded to it's current TMRCA. There are many such scenarios especially in the Balkans where many subclades under E-V13 with TMRCA around the EM period can be found.

Halgurd
06-16-2020, 12:17 PM
Mandean E-V13. Very interesting how these Middle Eastern closed genetic communities (like the Druze as well) have E-V13. I haven’t seen any proper study done on the Mandeans yet though.

Məndaean, E1b1b1a>Z1919>V13 ~ Məysan, Iraq
E1b1b-M215→ E1b1b1-M35→ V68/L539→ M78→ Z1919→ L618→ V13.

I believe it is from the Dersim DNA project:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?hl=tr&fbclid=IwAR3CLV0gbU9KdL7Gu-nIRcB87bFEq3g39exbAtGtuEEzq5_W9GE7otsQgjY&mid=1xYZrp9V60fcsnLXZR8t_vrLQdEU&ll=31.72078240251881%2C47.956311638311576&z=8

Lupriac
06-28-2020, 11:17 AM
Mandean E-V13. Very interesting how these Middle Eastern closed genetic communities (like the Druze as well) have E-V13. I haven’t seen any proper study done on the Mandeans yet though.

Məndaean, E1b1b1a>Z1919>V13 ~ Məysan, Iraq
E1b1b-M215→ E1b1b1-M35→ V68/L539→ M78→ Z1919→ L618→ V13.

I believe it is from the Dersim DNA project:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?hl=tr&fbclid=IwAR3CLV0gbU9KdL7Gu-nIRcB87bFEq3g39exbAtGtuEEzq5_W9GE7otsQgjY&mid=1xYZrp9V60fcsnLXZR8t_vrLQdEU&ll=31.72078240251881%2C47.956311638311576&z=8

Mandaeans follow a Gnostic religion that claims to follow "John the Baptist", which actually wasn't very unique of a claim, in the province of Syria there were other Gnostic sects that held this claim as well (before the mass adoption of Christianity in around the middle 2nd, 3rd and 4th centuries in the Levant and Mesopotamia. A migration from that region would make sense, as well as the incorporation of native Mesopotamians upon settling before becoming strictly endogamous. As Farroukh previously pointed out, a Greek origin is a potential scenario. Is there any way to find out the subclade?

Halgurd
06-28-2020, 11:43 AM
Mandaeans follow a Gnostic religion that claims to follow "John the Baptist", which actually wasn't very unique of a claim, in the province of Syria there were other Gnostic sects that held this claim as well (before the mass adoption of Christianity in around the middle 2nd, 3rd and 4th centuries in the Levant and Mesopotamia. A migration from that region would make sense, as well as the incorporation of native Mesopotamians upon settling before becoming strictly endogamous. As Farroukh previously pointed out, a Greek origin is a potential scenario. Is there any way to find out the subclade?

Not sure about the subclade in all honesty.

Do you think the same explanation can be provided for Druze E-V13?

Lupriac
06-28-2020, 11:51 AM
Not sure about the subclade in all honesty.

Do you think the same explanation can be provided for Druze E-V13?

Druze E-V13 sample you linked above seems to be of Kurdish origins. The family, a famous one in Lebanon, traces back to a Aleppo and Kilis regions. I'm pretty sure a significant percentage of Kurds are not of the original Kurds who migrated from Azerbaijan/northeastern Iran, rather a native population that adopted and assimilated. As for Druze in general, E-V13 seems to be relatively more frequent than in other communities in the region, and I'm sure the larger majority of it traces to Greek or Roman remnants. Another scenario I believe would be the Indo-Iranians. E-BY5787 seems to be approximately 4100 years old, which matches the Indo-Iranian migrations. But at the moment further samples and ancient remains are needed.

Farroukh
06-29-2020, 06:32 AM
Druze community derives from Ismailites and became close group in late Medieval times. It is not an long-term endohamy.

WADIGAJI
10-17-2020, 11:24 AM
... and from ancient Yemen too

I am Eritrean with E-V6 haplogroup . I recent got a match on yfull ....he is iraqi who claims his ancestors came from Yemen centuries ago. He belongs to the Mijma3 tribe. Not sure if this is relevant to the topic but i figured i throw it out there .

Farroukh
10-17-2020, 03:12 PM
It seems you belong to E-Y53130

capsian
03-13-2021, 07:57 PM
this new study 6 samples under haplgroups E-M215
http://plantarchives.org/20-2/4341-4348%20(6836).pdf
sample E1b1b M123* (xM34) mostly likely E-Y31991 Middle East - Antolain - Euroup
sample E-Y4972 Middle East - Euroup
2sample on E-V13 (1 E-Z16988 + 1 E-Y145455 ) balkan
2 sample on E-M81 (1 E-CTS12227+1 E-MZ2) North africa

Finn
08-22-2021, 07:05 AM
How do you think E-V22 and E-V12 got in to the Iraqi population? Is it possible through the Akkadian migration from the Levant, or possibly a later incursion of Aramaeans?


... and from ancient Yemen too

I can share some pieces of the puzzle.....may be some members, with more knowledge of the 'middle east' history and ancient tribes, can give a hint?

Recently I got a new neighbor on the Y-full tree, It's a person from Iraq.

https://i.postimg.cc/W4TXkk2z/Schermafbeelding-2021-08-22-om-08-36-36.png (https://postimg.cc/dhN2MDZc)

On yourdna portal my father got on 'Eurasia modern origins' a small part Druze. Father 3,5% and I 1,5%. That's on autosomal level, but imo must have a link with Y-DNA E-V22....

Father:
https://i.postimg.cc/FHLHLYTM/Schermafbeelding-2021-08-22-om-08-39-15.png (https://postimg.cc/K1mbX8Sf)

https://i.postimg.cc/q7r46jhK/Schermafbeelding-2021-08-22-om-08-39-32.png (https://postimg.cc/v40pp7v8)

I:
https://i.postimg.cc/KzzXtVZ1/Schermafbeelding-2021-08-22-om-08-41-37.png (https://postimg.cc/sBt0rTGz)

The link between the supposed Druze and the Libanon sample is quite clear, but with Iraq?

Druze ancestry:

https://theconversation.com/solving-the-1-000-year-old-mystery-of-druze-origin-with-a-genetic-sat-nav-68550


It is thought that the first Druze worshippers probably lived in Cairo, where Druzism was adopted by Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah who ruled in Egypt and the eastern Mediterranean – known as the Levant – between 996 and 1021. But after his sudden disappearance, his successor prosecuted the Druze ruthlessly and abolished the faith in Egypt. By that time, however, the faith had already spread outside Egypt and become accepted among several Levantine groups.


Who can give a hint?

Finn
08-22-2021, 08:41 AM
May be a clue?

This split Druze into two major subpopulations some 700 km apart from one other; the larger one (79% of the Druze) centred around the mountainous regions of the Turkish Hakkari and Van Provinces as well as northern Iraq (, ), close to Mounts Artos and Ararat and the second one in southeast Syria (, ) with a median distance of 168.6 kilometres (km) from Mount Hauran (, ), formerly known as the State of Jabal Druze, where nearly half a million Druze reside today (

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep35837

Riverman
08-22-2021, 10:43 AM
I can share some pieces of the puzzle.....may be some members, with more knowledge of the 'middle east' history and ancient tribes, can give a hint?

Recently I got a new neighbor on the Y-full tree, It's a person from Iraq.

https://i.postimg.cc/W4TXkk2z/Schermafbeelding-2021-08-22-om-08-36-36.png (https://postimg.cc/dhN2MDZc)

On yourdna portal my father got on 'Eurasia modern origins' a small part Druze. Father 3,5% and I 1,5%. That's on autosomal level, but imo must have a link with Y-DNA E-V22....

Father:
https://i.postimg.cc/FHLHLYTM/Schermafbeelding-2021-08-22-om-08-39-15.png (https://postimg.cc/K1mbX8Sf)

https://i.postimg.cc/q7r46jhK/Schermafbeelding-2021-08-22-om-08-39-32.png (https://postimg.cc/v40pp7v8)

I:
https://i.postimg.cc/KzzXtVZ1/Schermafbeelding-2021-08-22-om-08-41-37.png (https://postimg.cc/sBt0rTGz)

The link between the supposed Druze and the Libanon sample is quite clear, but with Iraq?

Druze ancestry:

https://theconversation.com/solving-the-1-000-year-old-mystery-of-druze-origin-with-a-genetic-sat-nav-68550



Who can give a hint?

How many SNPs are between you and the new Iraqi sample? So far it looks your subclade is very old and goes back to the Bronze Age!

The Iraqi wrote Salah ad Din, the majority population of the region is Sunnitic Arab:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin_Governorate

I don't think you will be particularly close and you should hope for European matches, which will give you a better clue. In any case your clade doesn't look like an early European before Bronze Age, but everything afterwards is completely open and unknown. I wouldn't trust those calculators. If you don't get it on 23andme, AncestryDNA, G25 and have no direct matches, its not recent, whatever some fancy calculators say.

Lupriac
08-22-2021, 12:19 PM
Thank you for the interesting response Finn. I do agree with Riverman regarding the calculator scores. However, regarding the origin of E-V22, last month we've seen an Amorite from Alalakh who belongs to a related subclade of E-V22, E-V12>CTS693, with no seemingly Egyptian autosomal contribution. If E-V22 and E-V12 are indeed both Egyptian HG haplotypes, then I think a compelling case can be made that E-V22 and E-V12 moved together to the Levant in the Chalcolithic/EBA period, and then from there to Mesopotamia, perhaps with Amorites and later Northwest Semitic-speaking peoples in Iron age.

Finn
08-22-2021, 12:25 PM
How many SNPs are between you and the new Iraqi sample? So far it looks your subclade is very old and goes back to the Bronze Age!

The Iraqi wrote Salah ad Din, the majority population of the region is Sunnitic Arab:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin_Governorate

I don't think you will be particularly close and you should hope for European matches, which will give you a better clue. In any case your clade doesn't look like an early European before Bronze Age, but everything afterwards is completely open and unknown. I wouldn't trust those calculators. If you don't get it on 23andme, AncestryDNA, G25 and have no direct matches, its not recent, whatever some fancy calculators say.

Thanks Riverman!

A compagnon of me will have a look at the snp's (sooner or later).

What drives to my mind is this, when pangea is right, than 1,5% (me), 3,5% (father).....6% grandfather, etc within 5/6 generation it could be a 100% Druze proxy for someone from the "Levant".

My paper trail goes back to end 17th century, skippers in Wartena in the heart of Friesland.

It's known that the skippers from Wartena had a very active trade with the Levant, also with Aleppo with Egypt etc. etc.

Two possibilities:

a. a man from the Levant went to Friesland, if this was the case it would be documented, and the family names of that time (Haye, Fokke, Jan) give no hint!

b. my gggg grandmother, a board the ship to the Mediterranean area, must have had an affair with someone from the Levant.

Everything is possible but isn't this mor fiction (novel stuff) than fact?

Riverman
08-22-2021, 12:29 PM
Thank you for the interesting response Finn. I do agree with Riverman regarding the calculator scores. However, regarding the origin of E-V22, last month we've seen an Amorite from Alalakh who belongs to a related subclade of E-V22, E-V12>CS693, with no seemingly Egyptian autosomal contribution. If E-V22 and E-V12 are indeed both Egyptian HG haplotypes, then I think a compelling case can be made that E-V22 and E-V12 moved together to the Levant in the Chalcolithic/EBA period, and then from there to Mesopotamia, perhaps with Amorites and later Northwest Semitic-speaking peoples in Iron age.

Like I wrote in the E-V22 thread, who knows whether they are Egyptian in origin before the Neolithic? Many clades could have been left behind in the Southern Levante and Arabia. Who would have guessed the exact haplogroup composition of European Neolithics or the spread of E-V13 in the Late Bronze Age?
From Egypt we have almost nothing, especially for the older times. E1b1b was common in the Levantine zone the latest with Natufians, I suggest much earlier, from Basal Eurasians.
Without more sampling we can't conclude from the modern distribution, even less so if most older clades have Near Eastern representatives.

Riverman
08-22-2021, 12:40 PM
Thanks Riverman!

A compagnon of me will have a look at the snp's (sooner or later).

What drives to my mind is this, when pangea is right, than 1,5% (me), 3,5% (father).....6% grandfather, etc within 5/6 generation it could be a 100% Druze proxy for someone from the "Levant".

My paper trail goes back to end 17th century, skippers in Wartena in the heart of Friesland.

It's known that the skippers from Wartena had a very active trade with the Levant, also with Aleppo with Egypt etc. etc.

Two possibilities:

a. a man from the Levant went to Friesland, if this was the case it would be documented, and the family names of that time (Haye, Fokke, Jan) give no hint!

b. my gggg grandmother, a board the ship to the Mediterranean area, must have had an affair with someone from the Levant.

Everything is possible but isn't this mor fiction (novel stuff) than fact?

Its more likely your lineage is from a Syrian-Palestine merchant, soldier, slave or whatever in Roman times than anything else imho.
But there are so many alternatives around without more factual data!
I might have zero ethnically relevant ancestry from a lot of my known ancestors in the 19th century and absolutely nothing from many of the 18th.
If you know your ancestry centuries back and there was no NPE or unknown adoption, its irrelevant for the calculators. Unless it would be a typical ancestral component of the whole region. But then you had no more or just by chance than any R1b carrier from the same group.
Like more than 50 percent of my relatives are R1b, that I'm E has nothing to do with my ancestral composition.

Lupriac
08-22-2021, 12:40 PM
Like I wrote in the E-V22 thread, who knows whether they are Egyptian in origin before the Neolithic? Many clades could have been left behind in the Southern Levante and Arabia. Who would have guessed the exact haplogroup composition of European Neolithics or the spread of E-V13 in the Late Bronze Age?
From Egypt we have almost nothing, especially for the older times. E1b1b was common in the Levantine zone the latest with Natufians, I suggest much earlier, from Basal Eurasians.
Without more sampling we can't conclude from the modern distribution, even less so if most older clades have Near Eastern representatives.

I agree. We actually have no reason a priori to assume, for example, that the basal E-M78* in Ain Ghazal, Jordan came from Egypt and not the other way around (i.e E-M78 was introduced to Egypt from Levant).

Finn
08-22-2021, 12:55 PM
Its more likely your lineage is from a Syrian-Palestine merchant, soldier, slave or whatever in Roman times than anything else imho.
But there are so many alternatives around without more factual data!
I might have zero ethnically relevant ancestry from a lot of my known ancestors in the 19th century and absolutely nothing from many of the 18th.
If you know your ancestry centuries back and there was no NPE or unknown adoption, its irrelevant for the calculators. Unless it would be a typical ancestral component of the whole region. But then you had no more or just by chance than any R1b carrier from the same group.
Like more than 50 percent of my relatives are R1b, that I'm E has nothing to do with my ancestral composition.

Autosomal this indeed a point. But if it was a Syrian-Palestine merchant in Cologne or Mainz (the Rhineland cities have clearly Roman roots) and his ancestry went to Friesland (which is not odd) it would be nearly traceable in my auDNA.
Nevertheless Druze seems to show up in the auDNA and not in negligible percentages at least according to Pangea.
That combined with Y-DNA E-V22 makes it at least enigmatic and intriguing even if the rest of the auDNA is (pretty predictable for a North Dutch) outmost NW European......

Riverman
08-22-2021, 01:03 PM
Autosomal this indeed a point. But if it was a Syrian-Palestine merchant in Cologne or Mainz (the Rhineland cities have clearly Roman roots) and his ancestry went to Friesland (which is not odd) it would be nearly traceable in my auDNA.
Nevertheless Druze seems to show up in the auDNA and not in negligible percentages at least according to Pangea.
That combined with Y-DNA E-V22 makes it at least enigmatic and intriguing even if the rest of the auDNA is (pretty predictable for a North Dutch) outmost NW European......

As a starting point for genetic genealogy, we should never just assume something without facts at least indicatIng it.
Like you could have a Syrian-Palestine trader as founder which moved to the Netherlands in Roman times and stayed AND you could also gave a Levantine ancestor.
For the first your haplogroup might serve as evidence, for the second you just have a calculator which is notoriously unreliable and you have no proof, even if its right, that the two being connected.
If you have a tree to the 17th century,anything that big should be in the records. With the exception of illegitimate and unknown fathers.

Finn
08-22-2021, 01:04 PM
I agree. We actually have no reason a priori to assume, for example, that the basal E-M78* in Ain Ghazal, Jordan came from Egypt and not the other way around (i.e E-M78 was introduced to Egypt from Levant).

When I consider E-V22 as 'indigenous' Nile Delta, the following link with the Druzes look not fare fetched.

Encyclopedia Brittanica

The Druze faith originated in Egypt as an offshoot of Ismaʿīlī Shīʿism when, during the reign of the sixth Fāṭimid caliph, the eccentric al-Ḥākim bi-Amr Allāh (ruled 996–1021), some Ismaʿīlī theologians began to organize a movement proclaiming al-Ḥākim a divine figure. Although the idea was probably encouraged by al-Ḥākim himself, it was condemned as heresy by the Fāṭimid religious establishment, which held that al-Ḥākim and his predecessors were divinely appointed but not themselves divine. In 1017 the doctrine was publicly preached for the first time, causing riots in Cairo.


There was also conflict within the emerging movement as the leading proponent of the doctrine of al-Ḥākim’s divinity, Ḥamzah ibn ʿAlī ibn Aḥmad al-Zūzanī, found himself competing for authority and followers with a former disciple, Muḥammad al-Darāzī. Ḥamzah seems to have been favoured by al-Ḥākim, however, and al-Darāzī was declared an apostate within the movement and later disappeared (it is believed that al-Ḥākim ordered him killed). In spite of al-Darāzī’s death, outsiders continued to attach his name to the movement as al-Darāziyyah and al-Durūz.



Al-Ḥākim disappeared mysteriously in 1021, and the movement was persecuted under his successor, al-Zāḥir. Ḥamzah went into hiding, leaving the Druze to be led by al-Muqtanā Bahāʾ al-Dīn (also called al-Samūqī), with whom he seems to have remained in contact for a period of time. The Druze faith gradually died out in Egypt but survived in isolated areas of Syria and Lebanon, where missionaries had established significant communities.

So E-V22 might already been there in parts of Libanon and Syria but can also have had an extra contribution when people with a Druze faith went from Egypt to nowadays Libanon/Syria after 1021....

Finn
08-22-2021, 01:08 PM
As a starting point for genetic genealogy, we should never just assume something without facts at least indicatIng it.
Like you could have a Syrian-Palestine trader as founder which moved to the Netherlands in Roman times and stayed AND you could also gave a Levantine ancestor.
For the first your haplogroup might serve as evidence, for the second you just have a calculator which is notoriously unreliable and you have no proof, even if its right, that the two being connected.
If you have a tree to the 17th century,anything that big should be in the records. With the exception of illegitimate and unknown fathers.


Absolute true but the white raven status of Y-DNA E-V22 (in Friesland) and probably (taken with salt) a contingent middle east in the auDNA stays enigmatic.

That I'm 99% an "Anglo-Saxon kind" of guy is not the big deal ;)

Finn
08-22-2021, 06:01 PM
Like I wrote in the E-V22 thread, who knows whether they are Egyptian in origin before the Neolithic? Many clades could have been left behind in the Southern Levante and Arabia. Who would have guessed the exact haplogroup composition of European Neolithics or the spread of E-V13 in the Late Bronze Age?
From Egypt we have almost nothing, especially for the older times. E1b1b was common in the Levantine zone the latest with Natufians, I suggest much earlier, from Basal Eurasians.
Without more sampling we can't conclude from the modern distribution, even less so if most older clades have Near Eastern representatives.

Obviously the posting was gone, hereby a second attempt wit quotation. It was made a time ago so probably needs an update.


Where did the old patriarch of E-V22 live? Our clue is that we must go to North Eastern Africa, borderland nowadays Libya/Egypt. This is the so called Western Desert.

Western Desert

This land wasn’t always as hot and dry as now it’s the case. In history humid and dry phases alternate.

E-M78 in the Western Desert

Why do we assume that’s the place? E-V22 is a subbranche of E-M78, originated about 14.000 years ago (y-full). In 2007 Prof. Cruciani stated that the origins of E-M78 lay in the Western Desert (Egypt/Libya). This is recently confirmed by prof. Trombetta e.a. (2015) they claimed: “a northern African location is favoured for the node defining the M78 sub-clade (posterior probability = 0.76), supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al. (2007).”

Refugium Lake Nubia, humid phase

Battaglia (2009) wrote: ‘A recent archaeological study reveals that during a desiccation period in North Africa, while the eastern Sahara was depopulated, a refugium existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC (radiocarbon-calibrated date). The rapid arrival of wet conditions during this Early Holocene period provided an impetus for population movement into habitat that was quickly settled afterwards’.

In the humid phases the haplogroup E-M78 spread around the whole Western Desert. In these phase E-M78 was according to the analist of Yfull.com mutated to E-V22 (9900-7200 ybp). So the old patriarch of E-V22 is to be placed in the Western Desert. E-V22 is with 22% of the population in Bahariya (Western Desert) the highest of whole Egypt (14% in the Delta).

Changing climate: desertification, move to the Nile

The humid phase in 5600 BC (7600 ybp) was followed by a desertification of the Sahara, spurred the migration tot he Nile. This corresponds with the Neolithization of Egypt at that time: ‘In the Nile Valley, the Saharian met and mixed with the descendants of the South Western Asian Neolithic population responsible for the introduction of the Southwest Asian agricultural tradition into the Nile Valley….’ (Peter Bellwood 2005).

Allison Smith (2009): ‘The prime Northeast African haplogroup E candidate related to the arrival of farmers and/or pastoralists from the Levant is undated E-M34. E-V12(xV32) and E-V22 may well represent local adaptation.’

Neolithization: founder effect along the Nile

The changing weather conditions, people moving to the Nile, and starting with forms of agriculture and sedentary life style counts for the whole area. Along the Nile within a relative short time, a few hundreds years, there where 7 mutations (subbranches) within the E-V22 markers (Y2530_2 and PH2818). This occurred about 7300 ybp. The migration from the Western Desert to the Nile and the development of a new kind of life style are mayor triggers for the different mutations of E-V22 and the founder effect of it.

source:
http://e-v22.net/origin/