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View Full Version : Y-dna of ethnic Macedonians from four DNA studies



Aspar
06-18-2020, 02:26 PM
I've analysed the str haplotypes of 386 ethnic Macedonians from four different studies:

- Y-chromosomal STR haplotypes in Macedonian population samples (researchgate.net/publication/8121661_Y-chromosomal_STR_haplotypes_in_Macedonian_populatio n_samples)
- A global analysis of Y-chromosomal haplotype diversity for 23 STR loci (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497314000842)
- Paternal and Maternal Lineages in the Balkans Show a Homogeneous Landscape Over Linguistic Barriers, Except for the Isolated Aromuns (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16759179/)
- Population genetics of 8 Y chromosome STR loci in Macedonians and Macedonian Romani (Gypsy) (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7581182_Population_genetics_of_8_Y_chromosome_STR_ loci_in_Macedonians_and_Macedonian_Romani_Gypsy)

If you find any mistake in the haplotype prediction pls let me know...


Y-chromosomal STR haplotypes in Macedonian population samples
DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389i DYS392 DYS389ii n
1 13 24 13 10 16-18 0 0 12 13 11 30 (8)==>E-V13
2 13 24 16 11 14-15 0 0 13 13 11 31 (3)==>I2a-Y3120
3 13 25 16 11 11-14 0 0 12 13 11 30 (3)==>R1a-Z280-Z92
4 13 24 14 11 11-11 $ $ 12 13 13 29 (3)==>R1b-BY611
5 13 24 13 10 17-18 $ $ 12 13 11 30 (3)==>E-V13
6 13 24 16 11 14-14 $ $ 13 13 11 32 (2)==>I2a-Y3120
7 13 24 16 11 14-15 $ $ 12 13 11 31 (2)==>I2a-Y3120
8 13 24 16 11 14-15 $ $ 12 13 11 31 (2)==>I2a-Y3120
9 13 25 16 11 11-15 $ $ 11 13 11 30 (2)==>R1a-Z280-Z92
10 13 22 14 10 14-14 $ $ 12 12 11 28 (2)==>I1
11 13 24 13 10 16-19 $ $ 13 14 11 31 (2)==>E-V13
12 13 25 13 10 16-18 $ $ 12 13 11 30 (2)==>E-V13
13 13 24 13 10 16-18 $ $ 13 13 11 30 (2)==>E-V13
14 13 24 13 10 16-17 $ $ 12 13 11 30 (2)==>E-V13
15 13 24 17 10 14-14 $ $ 10 14 11 31 ==>E-M35
16 13 24 17 11 14-16 $ $ 13 13 11 32 ==>I2a-Y3120
17 13 24 17 10 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 32 ==>I2a-Y3120
18 13 24 17 10 13-15 $ $ 14 13 11 32 ==>I2a-Y3120
19 13 24 17 11 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 ==>I2a-Y3120
20 13 24 17 11 14-15 $ $ 12 13 11 31 ==>I2a-Y3120
21 14 24 17 10 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 ==>I2a-Y3120
22 14 25 17 10 12-16 $ $ 11 13 11 30 ==>I2a-L161-Y13338
23 14 24 17 11 14-15 $ $ 12 13 12 30 ==>I2a-M223
24 14 24 17 10 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 30 ==>I2a-Y3120
25 13 24 16 10 15-15 $ $ 13 14 11 33 ==>I2a-Y3120
26 13 24 16 12 15-15 $ $ 13 14 11 32 ==>I2a-Y3120
27 13 24 16 11 15-15 $ $ 14 14 11 32 ==>I2a-Y3120
28 13 24 16 11 15-15 $ $ 13 14 11 32 ==>I2a-Y3120
29 13 24 16 11 14-15 $ $ 13 14 11 32 ==>I2a-Y3120
30 13 24 16 10 14-15 $ $ 13 14 11 32 ==>I2a-Y3120
31 13 25 16 11 14-15 $ $ 13 14 11 31 ==>I2a-Y3120
32 13 24 16 11 14-15 $ $ 12 13 11 32 ==>I2a-Y3120
33 13 24 16 11 14-14 $ $ 14 13 11 32 ==>I2a-Y3120
34 13 24 16 11 13-15 $ $ 13 13 11 32 ==>I2a-Y3120
35 13 24 16 10 14-16 $ $ 13 13 11 32 ==>I2a-Y3120
36 13 24 16 10 14-15 $ $ 12 13 11 32 ==>I2a-Y3120
37 14 24 16 11 15-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 ==>I2a-Y3120-S17250-Y4882-A10230
38 13 24 16 11 14-15 $ $ 11 13 11 31 ==>I2a-Y3120
39 13 24 16 11 13-16 $ $ 12 13 11 31 ==>I2a-Y3120
40 13 24 16 10 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 ==>I2a-Y3120
41 13 24 16 10 14-15 $ $ 12 13 11 31 ==>I2a-Y3120
42 13 23 16 11 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 ==>I2a-Y3120
43 14 24 16 11 14-15 $ $ 12 13 11 30 ==>I2a-Y3120
44 13 24 16 11 14-15 $ $ 14 13 11 30 ==>I2a-Y3120
45 13 23 16 11 14-14 $ $ 13 13 11 30 ==>I2a-Y3120
46 13 25 16 10 11-14 $ $ 11 13 11 29 ==>R1a-M458-L1029
47 13 24 16 10 14-15 $ $ 14 12 11 30 ==>I2a-Y3120
48 13 25 15 11 11-14 $ $ 10 14 11 31 ==>R1a-Z93
49 13 23 15 10 12-15 $ $ 12 14 11 30 ==>I2-S21825-L333
50 14 22 15 10 13-14 $ $ 11 14 11 30 ==>G2a2a-L91
51 13 24 15 10 14-16 $ $ 15 13 11 33 ==>I2a-Y3120
52 13 25 15 10 11-12 $ $ 10 13 11 31 ==>R1a-Z280-Z92
53 14 24 15 11 14-16 $ $ 12 13 11 31 ==>I2a-Y3120
54 13 24 15 11 15-15 $ $ 12 13 11 31 ==>I2a-Y3120
55 13 24 15 11 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 ==>I2a-Y3120
56 12 23 15 10 13-16 $ $ 11 13 11 31 ==>G2b-M3155
57 13 25 15 11 11-14 $ $ 11 13 11 30 ==>R1a-Z280-Z92-CTS4648
58 13 25 15 11 11-14 $ $ 10 13 11 30 ==>R1a-Z280-Z92-CTS4648
59 13 25 15 10 11-12 $ $ 10 13 11 30 ==>R1a-Z280-Z92
60 12 23 15 10 18-19 $ $ 11 13 11 30 ==>J1a3-Z1828
61 12 23 15 10 13-17 $ $ 11 13 11 30 ==>J1a-P58
62 12 22 15 10 9-16 $ $ 12 13 14 30 ==>L1c-M357
63 12 22 15 10 15-15 $ $ 12 13 11 30 ==>J2a1-M67
64 13 25 15 10 11-14 $ $ 12 13 11 29 ==>R1a-M458-L1029
65 12 24 15 11 12-15 $ $ 13 13 13 29 ==>R1b-Z2103
66 12 24 15 11 12-15 $ $ 12 13 13 29 ==>R1b-Z2103
67 13 24 15 11 13-14 $ $ 13 13 11 29 ==>G2a2a-PF3147-L91
68 13 24 15 10 15-15 $ $ 12 13 11 29 ==>C1-PH407
69 14 21 15 10 13-14 $ $ 11 13 11 29 ==>G2a2b1-M406
70 13 25 15 10 11-15 $ $ 11 13 11 28 ==>R1a-Z280-CTS1211
71 12 24 15 10 14-17 $ $ 11 12 11 29 ==>J2b2a-M241
72 16 22 15 11 15-15 $ $ 11 12 11 29 ==>G2a
73 13 22 15 10 13-14 $ $ 11 12 12 29 ==>G2a
74 13 22 15 10 12-14 $ $ 11 12 11 29 ==>G2a
75 12 24 15 11 14-18 $ $ 12 12 11 28 ==>J2b2a-M241
76 13 24 15 10 15-18 $ $ 12 12 11 28 ==>J2b2a-M241
77 12 24 15 10 13-16 $ $ 12 12 11 28 ==>J2b2a-M241
78 12 24 15 10 10-17 $ $ 11 12 11 28 ==>J2b2a-M241
79 13 22 15 10 13-16 $ $ 11 12 12 28 ==>G2a2
80 13 24 14 10 15-17 $ $ 12 14 11 31 ==>E-M123
81 13 24 14 10 14-17 $ $ 12 14 11 31 ==>E-M123
82 13 23 14 10 14-17 $ $ 11 14 15 31 ==>T-L131-PH141
83 13 23 14 10 14-17 $ $ 11 14 13 31 ==>T-PF5633
84 12 26 14 10 14-16 $ $ 11 14 11 30 ==>J2a1-Z6046
85 14 24 14 10 17-19 $ $ 11 14 14 30 ==>Q1-M346-Z780
86 13 24 14 11 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 ==>I2a-Y3120-PH908-Y56203
87 12 24 14 11 11-14 $ $ 12 13 13 30 ==>R1b-Z2103
88 12 24 14 10 12-15 $ $ 12 13 13 30 ==>R1b-Z2103
89 12 24 14 10 11-14 $ $ 12 13 13 30 ==>R1b-Z2103
90 13 24 14 10 16-18 $ $ 12 13 11 30 ==>E-V13
91 12 23 14 10 13-15 $ $ 12 13 11 30 ==>J1a-P58
92 12 24 14 12 11-14 $ $ 13 13 13 29 ==>R1b-Z2103
93 13 24 14 11 11-15 $ $ 12 13 13 29 ==>R1b-L51
94 13 24 14 11 11-14 $ $ 12 13 13 29 ==>R1b-L51
95 11 24 14 11 11-14 $ $ 12 13 12 29 ==>R1b-L51-L21-DF13
96 12 24 14 10 11-14 $ $ 12 13 13 29 ==>R1b-Z2103
97 12 24 14 10 10-14 $ $ 14 13 13 29 ==>R1b-Z2103
98 13 23 14 11 11-11 $ $ 12 13 13 29 ==>R1b-BY611
99 13 23 14 10 11-14 $ $ 12 13 13 29 ==>R1b-L51
100 13 23 14 10 13-15 $ $ 10 13 11 29 ==>J2a1-M67-S25258-S21160
101 12 22 14 11 14-19 $ $ 11 13 11 29 ==>J1a2-P58
102 13 22 14 10 11-14 $ $ 12 13 13 29 ==>R1b-L51
103 13 24 14 11 11-14 $ $ 12 13 13 28 ==>R1b-L51
104 12 23 14 10 11-14 $ $ 13 13 14 28 ==>R1b-Z2103
105 13 23 14 10 15-19 $ $ 12 13 13 28 ==>T1-PF5633
106 13 22 14 11 13-15 $ $ 11 12 11 29 ==>I1
107 12 24 14 10 14-17 $ $ 11 12 11 28 ==>J2b2a-M241-PH2967
108 13 22 14 10 13-13 $ $ 11 12 12 28 ==>I1
109 13 22 14 10 13-14 $ $ 11 12 11 28 ==>I1
110 13 22 14 10 12-13 $ $ 11 12 11 28 ==>I1-DF29-Y14628
111 13 24 13 10 16-18 $ $ 12 14 11 31 ==>E-V13
112 13 23 13 10 14-16 $ $ 11 14 13 30 ==>T1-L131-CTS933
113 13 24 13 10 17-21 $ $ 12 13 11 31 ==>E-V13
114 13 25 13 10 17-20 $ $ 12 13 11 30 ==>E-V13
115 13 25 13 10 16-19 $ $ 11 13 11 30 ==>E-M123-M34-Z841-Z21466
116 13 24 13 10 16-21 $ $ 11 13 11 30 ==>E-V13
117 13 24 13 10 16-18 $ $ 12 13 11 30 ==>E-V13
118 13 24 13 10 15-18 $ $ 12 13 11 30 ==>E-V13
119 13 23 13 10 16-18 $ $ 12 13 11 30 ==>E-V13
120 12 24 13 11 11-13 $ $ 13 13 13 29 ==>R1b-Z2103
121 13 23 13 10 14-17 $ $ 11 13 13 29 ==>T1-L131-CTS933
122 14 24 13 10 16-18 $ $ 11 13 11 29 ==>E-M123
123 13 24 13 10 16-17 $ $ 13 13 11 29 ==>E-V13
124 13 23 13 10 16-18 $ $ 12 13 11 29 ==>E-V13
125 13 24 13 10 16-18 $ $ 12 13 11 28 ==>E-M123
126 14 21 15-16 10 13-14 $ $ 11 13 11 29 ==>G2a2a-PF3147

n=150
E1b-V13 = 29 = 19.33%
E1b-(xV13) = 6 = 4%
I2a1b-Y3120 = 43 = 28.66%
I2a(xY3120) = 3 = 2.66%
R1a-Z280 = 10 = 6.66%
R1a-M458 = 2 = 1.33%
R1a-Z93 = 1 = 0.66%
R1b-Z2103 = 10 = 6.66%
R1b-BY611 = 4 = 2.66%
R1b-L51 = 6 = 4%
J2a = 3 = 2%
J2b2-M241 = 6 = 4%
J1 = 4 = 2.66%
I1 = 6 = 4%
G2 = 9 = 6%
G2a = 8 = 5.33%
G2b = 1 = 0.66%
T = 5 = 3.33%
Q = 1 = 0.66%
L1c = 1 = 0.66%
C1 = 1 = 0.66%



A global analysis of Y-chromosomal haplotype diversity for 23 STR loci
DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389i DYS392 DYS389ii DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448
13 24 13 11 11-13 0 0 12 14 13 30 18 15 19 R1b-L51
13 24 14 11 11-14 0 0 10 13 11 31 15 14 20 R1a-Z93-Z2122
12 25 12 11 11-14 0 0 12 14 12 31 16 15 19 R1b-M269-L23-Z2103-L584-PF7580
12 22 14 10 15-17 0 0 11 13 11 29 18 14 19 H1a1a-M82
13 23 12 10 14-18 0 0 11 13 13 29 17 15 19 T1-M70-L131
13 24 15 10 14-15 0 0 12 13 11 31 17 15 20 I2a1b3-North(S17250-Z16971)
13 24 13 11 14-15 0 0 13 13 11 31 17 15 19 I2a1b3-South(PH908-Y134578)
13 24 14 10 17-18 0 0 12 13 11 31 16 14 20 E1b1b-V22
12 24 14 10 14-18 0 0 11 12 11 28 15 16 19 J2b2a-Z638-Z1297-Y23094
12 24 13 11 11-16 0 0 11 12 13 29 17 15 19 R1b-L51-DF27-CTS4188
13 24 12 10 17-18 0 0 12 13 11 31 16 14 20 E1b1b-V13
13 24 14 10 17-18 0 0 12 13 11 31 16 14 20 E1b1b-V22
13 24 12 10 16-21 0 0 12 14 11 31 15 14 19 E1b1b-V13-BY3880
12 23 13 10 13-18 0 0 11 13 11 31 17.2 14 20 J1a2a1a2-P58-Z640-FGC5230
13 24 12 10 16-19 0 0 12 13 11 30 17 14 20 E1b1b-V13-Z5018-S2979-FGC33621
12 24 14 10 13-17 0 0 15 12 11 28 16 16 19 J2b2a-Z638-Z1297-FT33373
13 24 12 10 16-18 0 0 12 13 11 30 20 14 20 E1b1b-V13-CTS9320-Z38456
14 24 15 11 14-16 0 0 12 13 11 31 17 15 19 I2a1b3-South(S17250)
13 24 14 11 11-15 0 0 10 13 11 28 15 14 20 R1a-Z280
14 24 12 9 16-16 0 0 12 13 11 29 17 14 20 E1b1b-M123-M34-Y4972
13 25 14 10 11-12 0 0 11 13 11 29 15 14 20 R1a-M458-L1029
14 24 12 9 16-16 0 0 12 13 11 30 17 14 20 E1b1b-M123-M34-Y4972
13 24 12 10 15-17 0 0 13 13 11 30 15 14 16 E1b1b-M35
13 24 12 11 13-14 0 0 12 13 11 29 18 14 20 E1b1b-M81-PF2546
13 24 15 11 11-14 0 0 11 13 11 30 15 14 20 R1a-Z280-CTS1211
13 24 15 11 11-16 0 0 11 14 11 31 16 14 20 I2a1-L161.1-Y3749
13 24 12 10 16-17 0 0 11 13 11 30 15 14 20 E1b1b-V13
14 24 12 9 16-16 0 0 12 13 11 29 17 14 20 E1b1b-M123-M34-Y4972
15 23 14 10 15-15 0 0 11 14 12 32 16 14 20 I2a2a-M223-S2361
13 25 12 10 16-17 0 0 12 13 11 29 17 14 20 E1b1b-V13
13 25 12 10 17-18 0 0 12 13 11 30 16 14 20 E1b1b-V13
13 25 14 11 11-14 0 0 10 14 11 31 15 14 21 R1a-Z93
13 24 12 10 18-20 0 0 12 13 11 30 14 14 20 E1b1b-V22-BY7446
13 24 15 10 14-15 0 0 12 13 11 31 17 15 20 I2a1b3-North(S17250-Z16971)
13 24 12 10 16-18 0 0 12 13 11 30 20 14 20 E1b1b-V13-Z38456
13 24 15 11 14-15 0 0 13 13 11 32 17 15 20 I2a1b3-North(Z17855)
12 24 13 10 14-17 0 0 12 12 11 29 15 16 19 J2b2a-Z638-PH1751
13 24 13 11 11-14 0 0 12 14 13 30 16 15 19 R1b-L51-P312-U152-BY3620
12 24 13 10 16-20 0 0 12 13 11 30 14 14 20 E1b1b-V22
13 24 15 10 14-15 0 0 14 13 11 31 16 15 20 I2a1b3-North(Y4460)
13 24 12 10 16-18 0 0 12 13 11 30 19 14 20 E1b1b-V13-CTS9320-Z38456
12 23 13 10 13-18 0 0 12 13 11 29 17.2 14 20 J2a-M67-S25258
13 22 14 10 14-14 0 0 12 12 11 29 16 16 21 G2a2-L497-Y128028
13 24 12 10 16-17 0 0 12 13 11 31 17 14 20 E1b1b-V13
15 23 14 10 15-15 0 0 11 13 12 31 15 14 20 I2a2a-M223-Z78
13 24 14 11 14-14 0 0 13 13 11 31 18 15 21 I2a1b3-North(Z17855)
13 24 12 10 17-17 0 0 11 12 11 30 15 14 20 E1b1b-V13-PH1246-BY14151-BY14160
13 24 12 10 15-18 0 0 12 13 11 30 15 14 19 E1b1b-V13-Z5018-L17
13 24 14 11 14-15 0 0 14 13 11 31 16.1 15 20 I2a1b3-North
13 24 15 11 14-15 0 0 13 13 11 31 17 15 19 I2a1b3-South(PH908)
13 24 13 10 11-11 0 0 12 13 13 29 16 15 19 R1b-Z2103-BY611
13 25 14 10 11-14 0 0 11 12 11 30 15 14 20 R1a-Z93
13 24 15 11 14-15 0 0 12 13 11 31 17 15 19 I2a1b3-South(PH908)
13 24 15 11 14-15 0 0 14 13 11 32 16 15 19 I2a1b3-South(PH908)
13 25 15 11 11-14 0 0 10 13 11 30 15 14 20 R1a-Z280-L366
12 23 14 9 13-16 0 0 14 12 11 28 14 14 21 J2a1-Z387-L70
13 24 12 10 17-18 0 0 12 13 11 30 15 14 20 E1b1b-V13
13 25 16 10 11-14 0 0 10 13 11 29 13 14 20 R1a-Z280-YP4278
13 25 15 10 11-14 0 0 11 14 11 31 16 14 20 R1a-M458-L1029-YP263
13 24 15 11 14-14 0 0 12 14 11 34 17 15 20 I2a1b3-North(Y4460)
11 24 13 11 11-11 0 0 12 13 13 29 15 15 19 R1b-Z2103-BY611
13 24 12 10 16-18 0 0 13 13 11 30 15 14 20 E1b1b-V13
13 24 12 10 16-18 0 0 12 13 11 30 20 14 20 E1b1b-V13-CTS9320-Z38456
13 24 13 11 17-19 0 0 12 12 11 30 20 14 20 E1b1b-V13-CTS9320-Z38456
14 24 12 10 16-19 0 0 11 13 11 30 15 14 20 E1b1b-V13
13 23 12 10 16-18 0 0 12 13 11 30 15 14 20 E1b1b-V13-Z5018
12 23 14 9 13-16 0 0 12 13 11 29 14 14 21 J2a1-Z387-L70
13 25 15 11 11-14 0 0 11 13 11 30 16 14 20 R1a-Z280
14 22 14 10 13-16 0 0 12 14 12 33 17 16 21 G2a-L91
13 24 15 11 13-16 0 0 13 13 11 32 18 15 20 I2a1b3-North(Z17855)
13 25 16 11 11-14 0 0 10 14 11 31 15 14 20 R1a-Z280-FGC10360
13 24 12 10 17-18 0 0 12 13 11 30 17 14 20 E1b1b-V13-CTS9320
13 22 13 11 13-15 0 0 11 12 11 29 15 16 20 I1
13 24 16 10 14-15 0 0 12 14 11 31 18 15 19 I2a1b3-South
12 23 13 10 13-14 0 0 11 13 11 29 17.2 14 20 J1a2a1a2-L858
13 25 12 11 17-19 0 0 11 13 11 30 16 14 20 E1b1b-M35
13 24 12 10 16-20 0 0 12 13 11 30 17 14 20 E1b1b-V13
13 24 12 10 16-17 0 0 12 14 11 31 15 14 19 E1b1b-V13
13 26 14 10 11-14 0 0 11 13 11 30 16 14 20 R1a-M458-L1029
12 23 13 10 14-15 0 0 12 12 11 28 15 16 20 I1-L22
13 24 12 10 17-18 0 0 12 13 11 30 20 14 20 E1b1b-V13-Z38456
12 23 14 9 13-16 0 0 12 13 11 29 14 14 21 J2a1-Z387-L70-Z2177
13 23 15 10 11-14 0 0 10 13 11 30 16 14 21 R1a-Z280-YP968
12 23 14 9 13-16 0 0 14 12 11 28 14 14 21 J2a1-L70
13 24 13 11 11-14 0 0 12 13 13 29 17 15 19 R1b-L51-U106-BY19410
12 24 12 10 13-19 0 0 12 12 11 29 17.2 14 20 J1a2-PF7263-ZS11470-ZS9949
13 23 16 11 14-15 0 0 13 14 11 32 18 15 19 I2a1b3-South
12 23 14 9 13-16 0 0 14 12 11 28 14 14 21 J2a1-Z387-L70-Z2177
13 23 13 10 14-14 0 0 11 12 11 28 16 16 20 I1
13 24 15 11 14-15 0 0 13 14 11 32 17 15 19 I2a1b3-South(PH908-FT14506)
12 24 13 10 14-17 0 0 13 12 11 28 16 16 19 J2b2a-Z638-PH1751
13 23 12 10 16-18 0 0 11 13 11 30 22 14 21 E1b1b-V13
12 22 13 10 14-16 0 0 11 13 11 29 15 14 21 J2a1-M67-Z500
13 24 15 11 14-14 0 0 12 14 11 33 16 15 20 I2a1b3-North(Z17855)
13 24 15 11 14-15 0 0 13 13 11 31 17 15 20 I2a1b3-North(S17250)
13 24 14 10 14-16 0 0 12 13 13 29 17 14 18 T1-M70-L208-PF5633
12 24 15 10 14-16 0 0 11 13 11 29 16 16 19 J2b2a-Z638-Z1297-Y23094
13 24 12 10 16-18 0 0 12 14 11 31 16 14 20 E1b1b-V13-Z17264
13 24 13 10 16-18 0 0 12 13 11 30 15 14 20 E1b1b-V13
13 25 13 10 16-19 0 0 12 13 11 30 15 14 19 E1b1b-V13
13 24 14 11 13-16 0 0 13 13 11 31 17 15 19 I2a1b3-South(PH908)


n=101
R1b-L51 = 4 = 3.96%
R1b-Z2103-BY611 = 2 = 1.98%
R1b-Z2103-L584 = 1 = 0.99%
R1a-Z93 = 3 = 2.97%
R1a-Z280 = 7 = 6.93%
R1a-M458 = 3 = 2.97%
I2a1b-North = 10 = 9.90%
I2a1b-South = 9 = 8.91%
I2a-M223 = 2 = 1.98%
I2a-L161.1 = 1 = 0.99%
I1 = 3 = 2.97%
E1b1b-V13 = 26 = 25.74%
E1b1b-M123 = 3 = 2.97%
E1b1b-V22 = 4 = 3.96%
E1b1b-M81 = 1 = 0.99%
E1b1b-M35 = 2 = 1.98%
J2a-L70 = 5 = 4.95%
J2a-M67 = 2 = 1.98%
J2b2-M241 = 5 = 4.95%
J1-P58 = 3 = 2.97%
G2a-L91 = 1 = 0.99%
G2a2-L497-Y128028 = 1 = 0.99%
T1-M70 = 1 = 0.99%
T1-PF5633 = 1 = 0.99%
H1a1-M82 = 1 = 0.99%



Paternal and Maternal Lineages in the Balkans Show a Homogeneous Landscape Over Linguistic Barriers, Except for the Isolated Aromuns

12 25 15 11 10-15 0 12 12 14 13 30 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 10 (1) R1b-PF7562

12 24 14 11 11-11 0 12 12 13 13 31 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 12 (1) R1b-Z2103-BY611

13 25 14 11 11-14 0 13 13 13 14 30 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 12 (1) R1b-L51

12 23 14 10 11-15 0 12 12 13 13 30 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 11 (1) R1b-Z2103-CTS9219-BY250

13 24 14 11 11-11 0 12 12 13 13 29 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 12 (2) R1b-Z2103-BY611

12 24 14 11 11-11 0 12 12 13 11 29 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 12 (1) R1b-Z2103-BY611

13 25 16 10 11-14 0 12 11 14 11 31 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 11 (1) R1a-M458-L1029-YP417-YP6047

13 25 16 10 11-14 0 12 11 14 11 30 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 11 (1) R1a-M458-L1029-YP417-YP6047

13 25 16 10 11-11 0 12 11 14 11 30 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 11 (1) R1a-M458-L1029

13 25 16 10 11-14 0 12 10 13 11 30 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 10 (2) R1a-Z280-Y35-Y2613

13 25 16 11 11-14 0 12 10 13 11 29 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 11 (1) R1a-Z280-Y35

13 24 14 11 11-14 0 12 12 12 13 28 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 11 (1) R1b-L51

12 23 14 9 14-16 0 12 12 13 14 30 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 10 (1) T-PF5633/L208

12 23 14 9 14-16 0 12 12 12 14 30 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 10 (1) T-PF5633/L208

12 23 17 9 13-16 0 16 11 13 11 29 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 10 (1) J2a-Z387-L70

12 23 16 10 12-15 0 15 11 13 11 30 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 10 (1) J2a-Z387-FGC35503

12 24 16 10 14-16 0 15 12 12 11 28 0 0 0 0 0 16 0 0 0 11 (1) J2b2a-M241-CTS3617

12 23 15 9 13-16 0 16 11 13 11 30 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 10 (1) J2a-Z387-L70-CTS3601

12 24 15 10 14-16 0 15 12 12 11 28 0 0 0 0 0 16 0 0 0 10 (1) J2b2a-M241-Z1297

12 22 14 9 13-17 0 15 11 13 11 29 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 10 (1) J2a1-PH4970

13 24 17 11 14-15 0 13 13 13 11 31 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 10 (1) I2a-Y3120

12 24 17 11 14-15 0 13 12 13 11 31 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 10 (1) I2a-Y3120

13 24 16 11 14-15 0 13 13 14 11 33 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 10 (1) I2a-Y3120

13 24 16 11 14-15 0 13 13 14 11 33 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 10 (1) I2a-Y3120

13 24 16 11 14-15 0 13 12 13 11 32 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 10 (1) I2a-Y3120

14 24 16 11 15-15 0 13 13 13 11 31 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 10 (1) I2a-Y3120

13 24 16 11 14-16 0 13 13 13 11 31 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 10 (2) I2a-Y3120

13 24 16 11 14-16 0 13 13 13 11 31 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 10 (1) I2a-Y3120

13 24 16 11 14-15 0 13 13 13 11 31 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 10 (1) I2a-Y3120

13 24 16 11 14-15 0 13 14 13 11 30 0 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 10 (1) I2a-Y3120-PH908-BY37513

15 22 15 10 16-16 0 13 11 13 13 29 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 11 (1) I2a2a-M223-A427-S23612

13 22 15 10 14-14 0 14 11 12 12 28 0 0 0 0 0 16 0 0 0 10 (1) I1

13 22 15 10 13-14 0 14 12 12 12 28 0 0 0 0 0 16 0 0 0 10 (1) I1

13 23 14 10 13-15 0 14 11 12 11 28 0 0 0 0 0 16 0 0 0 10 (1) I1

14 22 15 10 13-14 0 12 12 14 11 30 0 0 0 0 0 16 0 0 0 11 (1) G2a2a-L91

14 21 15 11 14-16 0 12 12 12 11 29 0 0 0 0 0 16 0 0 0 9 (1) G2a2b1-M406

13 25 13 10 16-16 0 12 11 14 11 32 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 10 (1) E-M123-M34-L791

13 24 14 10 16-17 0 12 12 13 11 31 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 9 (1) E-M123-M34-Y6200

13 24 13 10 16-16 0 11 12 13 11 31 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 9 (1) E-M123-M34-M84-PF6751

14 24 13 10 16-16 0 12 12 13 11 30 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 10 (1) E-M123-M34-Y4972

13 24 13 10 17-17 0 12 13 13 11 30 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 9 (1) E-V13-BY3880

13 24 13 10 16-19 0 13 12 13 11 30 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 10 (1) E-V13-Z5018-S2979-FGC11457

13 24 13 10 16-18 0 12 12 13 11 30 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 9 (1) E-V13-BY4526

13 24 13 10 16-18 0 12 12 13 11 30 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 9 (1) E-V13-BY4526

13 24 13 10 16-18 0 12 9 13 11 30 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 9 (1) E-V13-Z17264-BY4280

13 23 13 10 16-18 0 12 11 12 11 31 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 9 (1) E-V13

14 24 13 10 16-18 0 12 12 12 11 29 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 9 (1) E-V13-Z5018-Y3183

13 24 13 10 16-17 0 12 12 12 11 29 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 9 (1) E-V13


n=51
R1b-Z2103-BY611 - 4 - 7.84%
R1b-Z2103 - 1 - 1.96%
R1b-PF7562 - 1 - 1.96%
R1b-L51 - 2 - 3.92%
R1a-M458 - 3 - 5.88%
R1a-Z280 - 3 - 5.88%
J2a - 4 - 7.84%
J2b2a- 2 - 3.92%
I2a-Y3120 - 11 - 21.56%
I2a-M223 - 1 - 1.96%
I1 - 3 - 5.77%
G2a - 2 - 3.84%
T1 - 2 - 3.84%
E-V13 - 8 - 15.68%
E-M123 - 4 - 7.84%



dys393 dys390 dys19 dys391 dys385 dys426 dys388 dys439 dys389i dys392 dys389ii
13 23 13 10 14-17 0 0 0 13 13 29 (1) T1-L131
13 24 13 10 15-16 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) E1b-V12-BY8673
13 24 13 10 16-17 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) E1b-V13
13 23 13 10 16-18 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) E1b-V13
13 24 13 10 16-18 0 0 0 13 11 30 (6) E1b-V13
14 24 13 10 16-18 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) E1b-V13
13 24 13 10 16-18 0 0 0 13 12 30 (1) E1b-V13
13 25 13 10 16-18 0 0 0 13 11 30 (3) E1b-V13
13 25 13 10 16-19 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) E1b-V13
13 23 13 11 16-19 0 0 0 14 11 31 (1) E1b-V22
13 24 13 10 16-20 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) E1b-V13
13 24 13 11 16-21 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) E1b-V13
13 25 13 11 17-19 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) E1b-V13-Z16663
13 23 13 11 18-19 0 0 0 13 12 30 (1) E1b-V22
12 24 14 9 11-14 0 0 0 13 13 29 (1) R1b-Z2103
12 24 14 10 11-14 0 0 0 13 14 29 (1) R1b-PF7562
12 24 14 10 11-14 0 0 0 13 13 30 (1) R1b-Z2103
11 26 14 10 11-14 0 0 0 13 13 30 (1) R1b-L51-L21
13 22 14 10 13-13 0 0 0 12 12 28 (1) I1-Z58-L1450
13 23 14 10 13-14 0 0 0 12 11 28 (1) I1-P109-FGC33034
12 24 14 10 13-17 0 0 0 12 11 28 (1) J2b2a-M241
13 22 14 10 13-17 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) J2a1a-M67-Z500
12 23 14 10 13-17 0 0 0 14 11 30 (1) J2a1-PF5368
13 23 14 10 13-17 0 0 0 14 11 31 (1) G2b-M3155
13 22 14 10 14-14 0 0 0 12 11 28 (1) I1
12 22 14 10 14-16 0 0 0 13 11 29 (1) J2a1-M67-Z500
12 24 14 10 14-16 0 0 0 13 11 29 (1) J2a1-M67-Y95270
12 24 14 10 14-17 0 0 0 12 11 28 (1) J2b2a-M241-PH2967
12 24 14 10 14-18 0 0 0 12 11 29 (1) J2b2a-M241-PH2967
13 24 14 10 19-19 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) E1b1b-V22
13 25 15 10 10-14 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) R1a-M458
13 25 15 10 11-12 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) R1a-Z280-Z1907
13 25 15 9 11-14 0 0 0 13 11 31 (1) R1a-Z93
13 25 15 11 11-15 0 0 0 12 11 29 (1) R1a-Z280-CTS1211
13 25 15 10 11-15 0 0 0 14 11 30 (1) R1a-Z280-CTS1211
12 22 15 10 12-15 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) I2c1a1-L1251.1
14 21 15 11 13-15 0 0 0 12 11 28 (1) G2a2b1-M406
12 23 15 9 13-16 0 0 0 13 11 29 (1) J2a1-Z387-L70
13 22 15 10 14-14 0 0 0 13 11 29 (1) G2a2a-L497-Y128028
14 22 15 11 14-15 0 0 0 12 11 29 (1) G2a2b2a1b-L497
13 24 15 11 14-15 0 0 0 13 11 29 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120
13 24 15 11 14-15 0 0 0 13 11 33 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120
14 24 15 11 14-16 0 0 0 13 11 31 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120
12 22 15 11 14-18 0 0 0 13 11 29 (1) J2a1-M67-Z467
13 24 15 10 15-15 0 0 0 13 11 29 (1) C1-PH407
13 24 15 11 15-15 0 0 0 13 11 31 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120-Z17855
14 23 15 10 15-16 0 0 0 11 10 28 (1) G2a1-U1-Z7940
15 22 15 10 15-17 0 0 0 13 13 29 (1) I2a2a-M223-BY13707
12 23 15 10 15-19 0 0 0 12 12 28 (1) J2b1-M205
12 23 15 10 16-19 0 0 0 12 12 28 (1) J2b1-M205
13 25 16 10 11-11 0 0 0 14 11 30 (1) R1a-M458-L1029
15 25 16 10 11-13 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) R1a-M458
13 24 16 10 11-14 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) R1a-M458-L1029
13 25 16 10 11-14 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) R1a-M458-L1029
13 25 16 11 11-14 0 0 0 13 11 30 (2) R1a-Z280
13 25 16 11 11-15 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) R1a-Z280
13 24 16 11 13-14 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120-Z17855
13 24 16 11 13-15 0 0 0 13 11 32 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120
14 23 16 10 14-15 0 0 0 12 12 29 (1) G2a2-Z6885
13 24 16 10 14-15 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120-Z17855-BY45622
13 24 16 11 14-15 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120-PH908
13 24 16 10 14-15 0 0 0 13 11 31 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120
13 24 16 11 14-15 0 0 0 13 11 31 (7) I2a1b3-Y3120
13 24 16 10 14-15 0 0 0 13 11 32 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120
13 24 16 11 14-15 0 0 0 13 11 32 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120-Z17855
13 25 16 11 14-17 0 0 0 13 11 31 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120
13 24 16 10 16-19 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) J2a2-PF5008
13 24 17 12 14-14 0 0 0 13 11 30 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120
13 23 17 11 14-15 0 0 0 13 11 31 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120
13 24 17 11 14-15 0 0 0 13 11 32 (1) I2a1b3-Y3120-Z17855

n=84
R1b = 4 = 4.76%
R1b-Z2103 = 2 = 2.38%
R1b-PF7562 = 1 = 1.19%
R1b-L51 = 1 = 1.19%
R1a = 12 = 14.28%
R1a-M458 = 5 = 5.95%
R1a-Z280 = 6 = 7.14%
R1a-Z93 = 1 = 1.19%
I2 = 24 = 28.57%
I2a-Y3120 = 22 = 26.19%
I2a-M223 = 1 = 1.19%
I2c-L1251.1 = 1 = 1.19%
I1 = 3 = 3.57%
E1b = 21 = 25%
E-V13 = 17 = 20.23%
E-V22 = 3 = 3.57%
E-V12 = 1 = 1.19%
J2b2 = 3 = 3.57%
J2b1 = 2 = 2.38%
J2a = 7 = 8.33%
J2a-M67 = 4 = 4.76%
J2a-Z387 = 1 = 1.19%
J2a(xM67,xZ387) = 2 = 2.38%
G2 = 6 = 7.14%
G2a = 5 = 5.95%
G2b = 1 = 1.19%
T1 = 1 = 1.19%
C1 = 1 = 1.19%


The combined results from all four studies:



n=386

R1b = 39 = 10.10%
R1b-Z2103-BY611 = 10 = 2.59%
R1b-Z2103(xBY611) = 14 = 3.62%
R1b-PF7562 = 2 = 0.51%
R1b-L51 = 13 = 3.36%

R1a = 44 = 11.39%
R1a-Z280 = 26 = 6.73%
R1a-M458 = 13 = 3.36%
R1a-Z93 = 5 = 1.29%

I1 = 15 = 3.88%

I2 = 104 = 26.94%
I2a-Y3120 = 95 = 24.61%
I2a-M223 = 5 = 1.29%
I2a-L161.1 = 2 = 0.51%
I2a-P37(xM423) = 1 = 0.26%
I2c-L1251.1 = 1 = 0.26

E1b-M35 = 104 = 26.94%
E1b-V13 = 80 = 20.72%
E1b-M123 = 12 = 3.10%
E1b-V22 = 7 = 1.81%
E1b-V12 = 1 = 0.26%
E1b-M81 = 1 = 0.26%%
E1b-M35 = 3 = 0.77%

J2 = 39 = 10.10%
J2a-M67 = 9 = 2.33%
J2a-Z387 = 9 = 2.33%
J2a(xM67,xZ387) = 3 = 0.77%
J2b2-M241 = 13 = 4.30%
J2b1-M205 = 2 = 0.51%

J1 = 7 = 1.81%

G2 = 19 = 4.92%
G2a = 17 = 4.40%
G2b = 2 = 0.51%

T1 = 10 = 2.59%

Q1 = 1 = 0.26%

L1c = 1 = 0.26%

C1 = 2 = 0.51%

H1-M82 = 1 = 0.26%


https://i.postimg.cc/Z5DR4THT/n-386-str.png (https://postimages.org/)

How they caompare to their immediate neighbors:

https://i.postimg.cc/jj7J1wTV/bulgarians-ydna.png (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/jjZBG54X/serbs-ydna.png (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/SQMkz6rb/greek-continental-ydna.png (https://postimages.org/)

Conclusion:

There is a a lot of diversity in almost every main haplogroup except maybe I2 of which more than 90% falls to a recent and expansive branch defined by the marker Y3120 which at this point there is no doubt that it's connected with the proto-Slavs.

R1b is quite diverse, the eastern branches defined more often than not with the marker DYS393=12, make up around 2/3 of the overall R1b of which around 40% falls down to a very recent and expansive branch identified as BY611, while other branches include various Z2103* and to a lesser degree PF7562. It's overall percentage is comparable to Bulgarians and to some degree the continental Greeks.

R1a is quite low when compared to Bulgarians and this is the main difference because the ethnic Macedonians and Bulgarians are very similar in their genetics however as you can see in the study of the Bulgarians I posted above, R1a is around 17% among the Bulgarians while Y3120 is low and the opposite is true for the ethnic Macedonians, Y3120 is found to a bigger degree than Bulgarians and R1a is low. When it comes to it's structure, Z280 is around 60% of all R1a, M458 is represented by it's subclade L1029. There is also Z93 in small percentage. The overall distribution is the most similar with the continental Greeks percentage wise.

I1 is diverse and I couldn't find any pattern in it's diversity. Almost any branches found in the neighbors are also present among the ethnic Macedonians and it's distribution is very similar to that of it's neighbors.

I2 as I said previously is overwhelmingly represented by Y3120 however downstream it's very diverse and almost every branch it's found including the 'Greek' one identified with the marker Y18331. When it comes to the marker DYS448 which is essential for determining the south/north division of this haplogroup, only one of these studies tested it and the overall representation was equal with only a slight advantage of DYS448=20. The overall distribution percentage wise is the most similar to that of the Bulgarians who although have less I2a than the ethnic Macedonians the difference is not that big when compared to the Greeks who have much less of this haplogroup or the Serbs who have much more.

E1b is mostly represented by V13 and it's quite diverse at that which can be confirmed by YFULL and FTDNA. There are two BY3880* clustrs already and quite a big diversity downstream of it. M123, V22, V12, M81 are all found including some haplotypes which I couldn't identify. Overall, the biggest similarity percentage wise is with the continental Greeks.

J2 is also very diverse with J2a and J2b2 being the most represented. Under J2a there is an equal representation of M67 and Z387. Most of Z387 however falls down to L70 while M67 is more diverse. J2b2 is mostly L283 with a solid diversity overall with PH1751 being the most dominant. J2b1-M205 was only found in one study, in that of Pericic and the two haplotypes are almost identical. Overall the structure and distribution percentage wise of this haplogroup is most similar with that of the Bulgarians. Greeks showing big difference here having lot more J2a which goes to show that J2a is probably the main and defying Greek marker that makes them different to their neighbors.

G2 is mostly G2a and very diverse downstream, however there is some G2b as well. It's distribution percentage wise is most dimilar to that of the Bulgarians.

All other haplogroups are found in smaller percentages.

trdbr1234
06-24-2020, 01:30 AM
...................


Are you aware of any YP4278 in Macedonia? I see some of the CTS1211 can be YP4278, but their resolution is too low.

Aspar
06-25-2020, 12:22 AM
Are you aware of any YP4278 in Macedonia? I see some of the CTS1211 can be YP4278, but their resolution is too low.

Yeah, there are not enough markers to tell for sure...
However in our project there is one guy with paternal origin from Klisura, Blagoevgrad, the Bulgarian part of Macedonia. He is tested positive for Y35 and negative for CTS3402.
He is not tested for YP4278, however it's very likely that he might turn positive for that one since he is already negative for the other major subclade downstream of Y35.
Also it's very likely that there is YP4278 in Macedonia because there are already Bulgarians and Serbs forming a branch of YP4278.
Do you know if you are from the same branch as the Bulgarians and the Serbs on YFULL or something else?

trdbr1234
06-25-2020, 03:08 AM
Yeah, there are not enough markers to tell for sure...
However in our project there is one guy with paternal origin from Klisura, Blagoevgrad, the Bulgarian part of Macedonia. He is tested positive for Y35 and negative for CTS3402.
He is not tested for YP4278, however it's very likely that he might turn positive for that one since he is already negative for the other major subclade downstream of Y35.
Also it's very likely that there is YP4278 in Macedonia because there are already Bulgarians and Serbs forming a branch of YP4278.
Do you know if you are from the same branch as the Bulgarians and the Serbs on YFULL or something else?

Yeah, I imagine there will be.

Do you have his values?

No I do not match the Serbs or Bulgarian. I am 11/37 markers differentiated with them. I likely form my own branch for now. But I am hoping someone in Macedonia will match me eventually because I know we migrated heavily into Macedonia in the past and present. I am interested in Shatku (Satku in Macedonia) from Debar as they seem to be potentially YP4278, although not confirmed by Y-DNA testing yet. This surname is common only in Albania and Macedonia. As far as I know they are Orthodox and Muslim so should be found among Macedonians as well.

In addition, from reading the porelko site concerning YP4278, some of the families seem to have some distant relation to Macedonia.

Kelmendasi
06-25-2020, 12:06 PM
Yeah, I imagine there will be.

Do you have his values?

No I do not match the Serbs or Bulgarian. I am 11/37 markers differentiated with them. I likely form my own branch for now. But I am hoping someone in Macedonia will match me eventually because I know we migrated heavily into Macedonia in the past and present. I am interested in Shatku (Satku in Macedonia) from Debar as they seem to be potentially YP4278, although not confirmed by Y-DNA testing yet. This surname is common only in Albania and Macedonia. As far as I know they are Orthodox and Muslim so should be found among Macedonians as well.

In addition, from reading the porelko site concerning YP4278, some of the families seem to have some distant relation to Macedonia.
The Shatku from Debar (Dibra e Madhe) have tested via 23andme and are actually R-L1029. They could possibly be L1029>Y133383 like a number of other L1029+ Albanians from the nearby regions, though other L1029 clusters have also been found in Dibėr.

trdbr1234
06-25-2020, 02:00 PM
The Shatku from Debar (Dibra e Madhe) have tested via 23andme and are actually R-L1029. They could possibly be L1029>Y133383 like a number of other L1029+ Albanians from the nearby regions, though other L1029 clusters have also been found in Dibėr.

I have a very close relation to Shatku on 23andme and they are CTS1211 and not R-L1029. I have asked the Rrenjet admins to test a Shatku if they can find.

Kelmendasi
06-25-2020, 02:18 PM
I have a very close relation to Shatku on 23andme and they are CTS1211 and not R-L1029. I have asked the Rrenjet admins to test a Shatku if they can find.
I see, that's odd. I remember one being classified as L1029, one other was just classified as R-M512.

trdbr1234
06-25-2020, 02:34 PM
I see, that's odd. I remember one being classified as L1029, one other was just classified as R-M512.

There are also Sharku. The region seems to have multiple variations of these surnames - _a_ku

These names may have been spread through religious means and they do not necessarily need to be related.

Kelmendasi
06-25-2020, 02:38 PM
There are also Sharku. The region seems to have multiple variations of these surnames - _a_ku
Would be best to test the Shatku themselves via YSEQ or FTDNA.

There are quite a few in Tiranė as well as in the villages around Peshkopi, such as Fushė e Vogėl (Kurbegu), that trace their origins back to Debar.

trdbr1234
06-25-2020, 02:39 PM
Would be best to test the Shatku themselves via YSEQ or FTDNA.

There are quite a few in Tiranė as well as in the villages around Peshkopi, such as Grazhdan, that trace their origins back to Debar.

In Golloborde they are Orthodox as per my father, and we seem to have married with them. He may be confusing the surnames though.

Aspar
07-03-2020, 11:28 PM
So, I have got 103 haplotypes of ethnic Macedonians from a kind gentleman that is active on this forum.
The haplotypes are from the study "Y-chromosome Diversity of the Three Major Ethno-Linguistic Groups in the Republic of North Macedonia" (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31351212/) that is under paywall and I couldn't get hold of these haplotypes until now.


DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389i DYS392 DYS389ii DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464 DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
12, 13 24 13 10 16-20 $ $ 12 13 11 28 15 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 32 $-$-$-$ 9 11 $-$ 16 $ 19 19 $-$ $ 10
13 24 13 10 18-19 $ $ 12 14 11 31 14 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 32 $-$-$-$ 10 12 $-$ 14 $ 20 20 $-$ $ 10
13 23 13 10 14-16 $ $ 13 13 11 30 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 33 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 18 $ 17 18 $-$ $ 10
13 23 13 10 14-16 $ $ 13 13 11 30 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 33 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 18 $ 17 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 13 10 16-18 $ $ 11 13 11 30 17 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 31 $-$-$-$ 9 11 $-$ 17 $ 18 20 $-$ $ 10
13 24 13 10 17-18 $ $ 12 13 11 30 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 32 $-$-$-$ 9 12 $-$ 17 $ 18 22 $-$ $ 10
13 24 13 10 16-19 $ $ 12 13 11 30 15 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 32 $-$-$-$ 9 10 $-$ 17 $ 19 20 $-$ $ 10
13 24 13 10 16-18 $ $ 12 13 11 30 15 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 33 $-$-$-$ 9 10 $-$ 17 $ 16 20 $-$ $ 10
13 24 13 10 16-17 $ $ 12 13 11 30 17 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 31 $-$-$-$ 9 11 $-$ 17 $ 18 20 $-$ $ 10
13 23 13 10 16-18 $ $ 12 13 11 30 15 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 32 $-$-$-$ 9 10 $-$ 17 $ 16 20 $-$ $ 10
13 24 13 10 16-18 $ $ 12 13 11 30 15 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 33 $-$-$-$ 9 11 $-$ 16 $ 18 21 $-$ $ 10
13 25 13 10 16-18 $ $ 12 13 11 30 15 $-$ $ $ $ 14 19 31 $-$-$-$ 9 11 $-$ 17 $ 17 19 $-$ $ 10
13 24 13 10 17-18 $ $ 12 13 11 30 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 33 $-$-$-$ 10 11 $-$ 16 $ 18 19 $-$ $ 10
13 24 13 10 16-17 $ $ 12 13 11 30 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 32 $-$-$-$ 10 11 $-$ 17 $ 17 21 $-$ $ 10
14 24 13 10 16-18 $ $ 12 12 11 29 15 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 33 $-$-$-$ 9 11 $-$ 16 $ 18 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 13 9 16-18 $ $ 12 13 11 32 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 33 $-$-$-$ 9 10 $-$ 17 $ 17 18 $-$ $ 10
14 23 13 9 16-17 $ $ 13 13 11 30 17 $-$ $ $ $ 14 21 32 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 15 $ 16 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 14 10 17-20 $ $ 12 13 11 30 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 35 $-$-$-$ 11 12 $-$ 16 $ 19 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 13 9 14-14 $ $ 10 14 11 30 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 20 32 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 15 $ 19 23 $-$ $ 10
13 22 15 10 14-14 $ $ 12 12 11 29 16 $-$ $ $ $ 16 21 30 $-$-$-$ 10 9 $-$ 15 $ 15 18 $-$ $ 10
14 23 16 10 14-15 $ $ 11 12 12 29 16 $-$ $ $ $ 15 21 30 $-$-$-$ 12 11 $-$ 15 $ 19 19 $-$ $ 10
14 21 15 10 13-16 $ $ 10 12 13 28 18 $-$ $ $ $ 16 22 27 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 16 $ 17 17 $-$ $ 10
14 21 16 10 13-15 $ $ 11 13 11 29 17 $-$ $ $ $ 16 22 28 $-$-$-$ 11 9 $-$ 15 $ 16 18 $-$ $ 10
14 21 15 10 13-15 $ $ 11 12 11 28 16 $-$ $ $ $ 15 23 31 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 17 $ 16 18 $-$ $ 10
12 22 15 10 15-17 $ $ 11 13 11 29 18 $-$ $ $ $ 14 19 32 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 15 $ 19 16 $-$ $ 9
13 22 14 10 13-14 $ $ 11 12 11 28 15 $-$ $ $ $ 16 20 28 $-$-$-$ 10 11 $-$ 13 $ 15 20 $-$ $ 9
13 23 14 10 13-14 $ $ 11 12 11 28 15 $-$ $ $ $ 16 20 30 $-$-$-$ 10 11 $-$ 14 $ 16 21 $-$ $ 10
13 23 14 10 13-14 $ $ 12 12 11 28 15 $-$ $ $ $ 16 20 28 $-$-$-$ 10 11 $-$ 14 $ 17 21 $-$ $ 10
13 23 14 10 14-14 $ $ 11 12 11 28 16 $-$ $ $ $ 16 20 28 $-$-$-$ 11 10 $-$ 14 $ 17 19 $-$ $ 10
13 23 15 10 12-15 $ $ 11 14 11 30 19 $-$ $ $ $ 14 18 29 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 14 $ 17 17 $-$ $ 10
13 23 17 10 12-12 $ $ 12 13 11 28 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 21 29 $-$-$-$ 10 11 $-$ 14 $ 17 19 $-$ $ 10
13 23 16 11 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 20 33 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 19 $-$ $ 10
13 24 17 10 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 16 $-$ $ $ $ 15 20 32 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 20 $-$ $ 10
13 24 15 11 14-15 $ $ 12 13 11 31 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 20 32 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 15 11 15-16 $ $ 13 13 11 31 15 $-$ $ $ $ 15 20 31 $-$-$-$ 11 10 $-$ 16 $ 18 19 $-$ $ 10
13 24 15 11 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 20 31 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 17 11 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 16 $-$ $ $ $ 15 20 32 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 19 $-$ $ 10
13 24 16 11 13-15 $ $ 12 13 11 30 18 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 33 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 16 10 14-14 $ $ 15 13 11 31 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 20 33 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 17 $-$ $ 10
14 24 16 11 14-14 $ $ 13 14 11 32 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 20 32 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 19 $-$ $ 10
13 23 17 11 14-14 $ $ 13 13 11 31 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 20 33 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 19 $-$ $ 10
13 24 17 11 14-14 $ $ 12 13 11 32 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 20 30 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 18 $-$ $ 10
13 23 17 11 14-14 $ $ 13 13 11 31 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 20 33 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 19 $-$ $ 10
13 24 17 11 14-15 $ $ 11 13 11 31 16 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 29 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 20 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 16 10 14-15 $ $ 12 13 11 32 18 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 31 $-$-$-$ 10 11 $-$ 15 $ 19 18 $-$ $ 10
13 25 16 11 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 30 $-$-$-$ 9 10 $-$ 15 $ 17 17 $-$ $ 10
13 25 16 12 14-15 $ $ 14 13 11 31 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 30 $-$-$-$ 9 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 17 $-$ $ 10
13 23 16 11 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 30 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 17 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 16 11 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 19 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 31 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 16 11 14-15 $ $ 12 13 11 31 18 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 29 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 16 $ 17 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 15 11 14-15 $ $ 12 13 11 31 17 $-$ $ $ $ 14 19 30 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 16 10 13-16 $ $ 13 13 11 31 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 32 $-$-$-$ 9 10 $-$ 15 $ 19 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 15 11 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 30 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 30 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 17 $-$ $ 10
13 24 16 11 14-15 $ $ 13 13 11 31 18 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 29 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 17 18 $-$ $ 10
14 24 16 11 15-16 $ $ 12 13 11 30 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 29 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 16 11 14-15 $ $ 12 13 11 30 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 30 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 16 $ 19 18 $-$ $ 10
13 24 15 11 14-16 $ $ 13 13 11 30 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 29 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 18 $-$ $ 10
15 23 15 10 15-16 $ $ 11 13 12 29 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 26 $-$-$-$ 11 10 $-$ 14 $ 19 21 $-$ $ 10
12 21 14 11 14-15 $ $ 11 13 11 30 15 $-$ $ $ $ 15 21 30 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 17 $ 17 16 $-$ $ 10
12 23 15 10 18-18 $ $ 11 13 11 30 19,2 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 26 $-$-$-$ 12 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 17 $-$ $ 10
12 24 14 10 16-18 $ $ 10 13 13 29 16,2 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 28 $-$-$-$ 11 9 $-$ 17 $ 17 17 $-$ $ 11
12 23 14 10 13-19 $ $ 12 13 11 29 19,2 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 26 $-$-$-$ 11 10 $-$ 16 $ 18 17 $-$ $ 10
12 23 15 10 13-16 $ $ 12 13 11 31 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 28 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 15 $ 15 19 $-$ $ 10
12 22 14 10 14-16 $ $ 11 13 11 29 15 $-$ $ $ $ 14 21 30 $-$-$-$ 10 11 $-$ 15 $ 17 18 $-$ $ 10
12 23 15 9 13-16 $ $ 12 13 11 30 15 $-$ $ $ $ 14 21 31 $-$-$-$ 10 11 $-$ 16 $ 18 19 $-$ $ 9
12 23 14 10 13-17 $ $ 12 12 11 28 14 $-$ $ $ $ 15 21 33 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 15 $ 16 18 $-$ $ 10
12 24 14 10 14-18 $ $ 12 13 11 29 17 $-$ $ $ $ 16 19 32 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 13 $ 16 18 $-$ $ 9
12 25 15 10 10-18 $ $ 13 12 11 28 17 $-$ $ $ $ 16 19 28 $-$-$-$ 13 10 $-$ 13 $ 17 18 $-$ $ 9
12 25 15 10 12-17 $ $ 13 12 11 28 16 $-$ $ $ $ 16 19 29 $-$-$-$ 11 10 $-$ 13 $ 17 17 $-$ $ 9
12 24 15 10 14-17 $ $ 13 12 11 28 17 $-$ $ $ $ 16 19 31 $-$-$-$ 11 9 $-$ 13 $ 17 17 $-$ $ 9
12 24 15 11 14-17 $ $ 12 12 11 28 17 $-$ $ $ $ 17 19 29 $-$-$-$ 11 10 $-$ 12 $ 17 17 $-$ $ 9
12 23 15 12 15-18 $ $ 12 12 11 29 17 $-$ $ $ $ 14 19 32 $-$-$-$ 12 10 $-$ 14 $ 18 18 $-$ $ 9
13 25 15 11 11-14 $ $ 10 13 11 30 15 $-$ $ $ $ 14 21 32 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 16 $ 18 21 $-$ $ 11
13 25 16 10 11-14 $ $ 10 13 11 29 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 30 $-$-$-$ 11 10 $-$ 15 $ 18 19 $-$ $ 11
13 25 15 11 11-14 $ $ 11 13 11 29 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 33 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 17 $ 19 19 $-$ $ 11
13 25 16 10 11-14 $ $ 11 13 11 29 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 33 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 17 $ 19 19 $-$ $ 11
13 25 16 10 11-14 $ $ 10 13 11 30 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 32 $-$-$-$ 10 11 $-$ 18 $ 18 18 $-$ $ 12
13 25 16 10 11-14 $ $ 11 13 11 29 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 33 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 17 $ 19 19 $-$ $ 11
13 25 15 10 11-14 $ $ 10 13 11 29 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 31 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 15 $ 17 18 $-$ $ 11
13 25 15 10 11-14 $ $ 11 13 11 30 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 32 $-$-$-$ 11 12 $-$ 16 $ 17 18 $-$ $ 11
13 25 16 11 11-14 $ $ 10 13 11 31 14 $-$ $ $ $ 14 15 32 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 16 $ 18 19 $-$ $ 11
13 25 15 10 11-14 $ $ 11 13 11 29 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 32 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 16 $ 19 19 $-$ $ 11
13 25 16 10 11-14 $ $ 11 13 11 29 17 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 33 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 18 $ 18 19 $-$ $ 11
13 25 16 10 11-15 $ $ 11 13 11 29 18 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 32 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 17 $ 18 19 $-$ $ 11
13 25 15 9 11-14 $ $ 11 13 11 29 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 32 $-$-$-$ 11 10 $-$ 17 $ 18 19 $-$ $ 11
13 25 16 10 11-14 $ $ 10 13 11 29 17 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 31 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 15 $ 18 19 $-$ $ 11
13 23 17 11 11-14 $ $ 10 13 11 31 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 31 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 16 $ 18 21 $-$ $ 11
13 25 15 10 11-14 $ $ 10 13 11 30 15 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 32 $-$-$-$ 11 12 $-$ 16 $ 18 18 $-$ $ 11
13 25 17 11 11-15 $ $ 10 13 11 29 15 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 32 $-$-$-$ 11 12 $-$ 15 $ 19 20 $-$ $ 11
13 25 16 12 12-14 $ $ 10 13 11 29 15 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 31 $-$-$-$ 11 12 $-$ 15 $ 19 20 $-$ $ 11
13 25 16 10 11-14 $ $ 11 13 11 29 16 $-$ $ $ $ 14 20 33 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 17 $ 18 21 $-$ $ 11
13 24 15 11 12-15 $ $ 12 13 13 29 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 20 29 $-$-$-$ 11 12 $-$ 18 $ 19 17 $-$ $ 12
13 25 14 11 11-14 $ $ 13 13 13 30 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 29 $-$-$-$ 12 10 $-$ 16 $ 21 17 $-$ $ 12
13 23 14 10 11-14 $ $ 12 13 14 30 16 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 28 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 14 $ 17 16 $-$ $ 12
13 24 14 11 11-14 $ $ 12 13 13 29 18 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 30 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 16 $ 19 17 $-$ $ 12
13 24 14 11 11-14 $ $ 12 14 13 30 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 31 $-$-$-$ 11 12 $-$ 14 $ 17 17 $-$ $ 12
13 24 14 11 11-11 $ $ 12 13 13 29 16 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 30 $-$-$-$ 12 11 $-$ 15 $ 18 17 $-$ $ 12
13 24 14 11 11-11 $ $ 12 13 13 29 15 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 30 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 15 $ 19 17 $-$ $ 12
13 24 14 11 11-11 $ $ 12 13 13 29 17 $-$ $ $ $ 15 19 30 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 15 $ 18 17 $-$ $ 12
12 24 14 11 11-11 $ $ 12 13 13 29 15 $-$ $ $ $ 15 20 30 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 15 $ 18 17 $-$ $ 12
13 22 16 10 14.2-19 $ $ 11 14 11 31 18 $-$ $ $ $ 15 21 32 $-$-$-$ 11 11 $-$ 15 $ 17 17 $-$ $ 11
13 23 13 10 14-17 $ $ 11 13 13 30 17 $-$ $ $ $ 14 19 35 $-$-$-$ 11 10 $-$ 16 $ 17 19 $-$ $ 9
13 23 14 11 15-17 $ $ 11 14 13 30 15 $-$ $ $ $ 14 18 32 $-$-$-$ 10 10 $-$ 14 $ 16 18 $-$ $ 10


I've also collected 29 samples from the short communication PDF file of "Genetic data for 17 Y-chromosomal STR loci in Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia" (https://www.academia.edu/14205263/Genetic_data_for_17_Y-chromosomal_STR_loci_in_Macedonians_in_the_Republi c_of_Macedonia).
Some haplotypes of this study were used in the above mentioned paper "A global analysis of Y-chromosomal haplotype diversity for 23 STR loci", 101 haplotype more specifically, so I obtained them directly from there however the other haplotypes are not available.
luckily enough, the authors gave away 29 haplotypes in the short communication that occur more than ones so I was able to spot and collect those that don't appear in "A global analysis of Y-chromosomal haplotype diversity for 23 STR loci" and collect the reminder of those that already appear in the aforementioned paper.
The end result of my detective work is 130 obtained haplotypes(29 from the short communication PDF file and 101 from "A global analysis of Y-chromosomal haplotype diversity for 23 STR loci") out of 262 samples that appear in the paper "Genetic data for 17 Y-chromosomal STR loci in Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia" (https://www.academia.edu/14205263/Genetic_data_for_17_Y-chromosomal_STR_loci_in_Macedonians_in_the_Republi c_of_Macedonia).


DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389i DYS392 DYS389ii DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 (n)
13 25 17 12 13-15 0 0 13 13 11 31 17 0-0 0 0 0 15 20 (2) I2a1b3-North
12 22 16 10 13-15 0 0 12 13 11 31 15 0-0 0 0 0 14 21 (2) J2a1-M67-Z500
13 25 17 11 11-13 0 0 11 13 11 31 15 0-0 0 0 0 14 20 (2) R1a-Z280-Y5647
13 24 13 11 16-18 0 0 12 13 11 30 15 0-0 0 0 0 14 20 (2) E1b1b-V13
13 24 16 11 14-15 0 0 13 13 11 31 17 0-0 0 0 0 15 19 (1) I2a1b3-South
13 24 16 10 11-14 0 0 10 13 11 30 15 0-0 0 0 0 14 20 (2) R1a-Z280-L366
12 24 14 10 14-17 0 0 12 12 11 28 15 0-0 0 0 0 16 18 (2) J2b2a-Z638-PH1751
13 24 13 10 16-18 0 0 12 13 11 30 17 0-0 0 0 0 14 20 (3) E1b1b-V13
13 25 16 10 11-14 0 0 11 14 11 31 16 0-0 0 0 0 14 20 (1) R1a-M458-L1029-YP263
12 24 14 11 11-11 0 0 13 13 13 29 15 0-0 0 0 0 15 19 (2) R1b-BY611
12 23 15 9 13-16 0 0 14 12 11 28 14 0-0 0 0 0 14 21 (1) J2a1-Z387-L70
13 23 16 10 11-14 0 0 10 13 11 30 16 0-0 0 0 0 14 21 (1) R1a-Z280-YP968
13 25 15 10 11-14 0 0 11 13 11 30 16 0-0 0 0 0 14 20 (2) R1a-M458-L1029
13 22 15 10 14-14 0 0 12 12 11 29 16 0-0 0 0 0 16 21 (1) G2a2b2a1b-L497-Y128028
13 24 14 10 11-11 0 0 12 13 13 30 17 0-0 0 0 0 14 19 (2) R1b-L51
13 24 13 10 16-18 0 0 11 14 11 31 15 0-0 0 0 0 14 20 (2) E1b1b-V13
13 24 15 10 17-18 0 0 12 13 11 31 16 0-0 0 0 0 14 20 (1) E1b1b-V22



So with the new 132 haplotypes we now have 518 haplotypes in total for the ethnic Macedonians which is a solid number.
The new statistic:



n=518

R1b = 52 = 10.03%
R1b-Z2103-BY611 = 16 = 3.08%
R1b-Z2103(xBY611) = 14 = 2.70%
R1b-PF7562 = 2 = 0.38%
R1b-L51 = 20 = 3.87%

R1a = 71 = 13.70%
R1a-Z280 = 37 = 7.14%
R1a-M458 = 29 = 5.59%
R1a-Z93 = 5 = 0.96%

I1 = 19 = 3.66%

I2 = 136 = 26.25%
I2a-Y3120 = 124 = 23.93%
I2a-Y3120(DYS448=20) = 24 = 4.63%
I2a-Y3120(DYS448=19) = 24 = 4.63%
I2a-M223 = 6 = 1.15%
I2a-L161.1 = 2 = 0.38%
I2a-P37(xM423) = 3 = 0.58%
I2c-L1251.1 = 1 = 0.19%

E1b-M35 = 131 = 25.28%
E1b-V13 = 100 = 19.30%
E1b-M123 = 13 = 2.50%
E1b-V22 = 9 = 1.73%
E1b-V12 = 3 = 0.58%
E1b-M81 = 2 = 0.38%
E1b-M35 = 4 = 0.77%

J2 = 55 = 10.61%
J2a-M67 = 12 = 2.31%
J2a-Z387 = 12 = 2.31%
J2a(xM67,xZ387) = 5 = 0.96%
J2b2-M241 = 23 = 4.44%
J2b1-M205 = 3 = 0.58%

J1 = 10 = 1.93%

G2 = 25 = 4.82%
G2a = 23 = 4.44%
G2b = 2 = 0.38%

T1 = 12 = 2.31%

Q1 = 1 = 0.19%

L1b = 1 = 0.19%

C1 = 2 = 0.38%

H1-M82 = 2 = 0.38%

R2 = 1 = 0.19%


There are not many big changes however we have more solid results now.
R1a has gone up quite a bit, whooping 2.31% and probably this is more realistic picture now.
E1b has fallen down for 1.66% and probably will stabilize around 24-25%.
Small fall for I2 as well of 0.69%.
What I find interesting is that the ratio of R1a-I2a in the ethnic Macedonians is very similar to that of the Serbs, quite high in favor of I2a unlike the eastern most part of the South Slavic territory and the western most part of it where R1a is quite strong and the difference is not that obvious. I guess the Slavs that migrated through the Central Balkans were quite rich in I2a.
Although it should be mentioned that the structure of the available I-Y3120 haplotypes in the ethnic Macedonians is different than the one in the Serbs with no visible domination of either DYS448=19 or DYS448=20, and is more similar to that of the Bulgarians.
Other prominent characteristic here is the very high percentage of E1b which makes the ethnic Macedonians the second most E1b rich nation percentage wise after the Albanians
in the Balkans and further if we don't count the Montenegrins here and probably we shouldn't because the high E1b percentage in Montenegro from what I've read comes from few highly related E1b rich tribes and the diversity there probably is not comparable with that of the ethnic Macedonians.
All the other major haplogroups remain pretty much the same percentages.

slavomir
07-08-2020, 09:25 AM
I've analysed the str haplotypes of 386 ethnic Macedonians from four different studies:


Could i know which method did you use for predicitng the haplogroups? I think it's not Nevgen, right? Because Nevgen doesn't seem to predict Z280 and M458 correctly.

btw, here is one more research of 211 Macedonians, SNPs only. results on page 8:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242517963_Y_chromosome_single_nucleotide_polymorph isms_typing_by_SNaPshot_MINISEQUENCING

Aspar
07-08-2020, 11:05 AM
Could i know which method did you use for predicitng the haplogroups? I think it's not Nevgen, right? Because Nevgen doesn't seem to predict Z280 and M458 correctly.

btw, here is one more research of 211 Macedonians, SNPs only. results on page 8:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242517963_Y_chromosome_single_nucleotide_polymorph isms_typing_by_SNaPshot_MINISEQUENCING

I am aware of that study but as you said, it's snp based, so not what I was looking for.
I can still convert the percentages to numbers however I tend not to without any str markers so I left this study out.

I did use Nevgen tbh, but I am not relying solely on it but I tend to look into the FTDNA's database, in the projects of the neighborhood countries as well as the main haplogroup projects.
Of course, predicting subclades on that few str markers is a difficult job however I tend to give my best and try to determine a subclade instead of designating it only with the main haplogroup even if that might not be correct in some cases which probably is true.
That being said, whenever Nevgen couldn't give me a prediction with more than 50% probability I tried to find similar haplotypes in the projects.
For example, here is one haplotype that Nevgen couldn't give precise prediction albeit rightly so, it's only ten markers:
13 25 15 11 11-14 $ $ 11 13 11 30

Based on that I've managed to find an exact match in the database with a man from Bulgaria with origins from Greek Macedonia.
Since the guy from Bulgaria did SNP test and his subclade is R1a-Z280-Z92-CTS4648, the least I can do is to predict the haplotype in question belonging to R1a-Z280.

Hope this helps.

slavomir
07-08-2020, 11:39 AM
I am aware of that study but as you said, it's snp based, so not what I was looking for.
I can still convert the percentages to numbers however I tend not to without any str markers so I left this study out.

I did use Nevgen tbh, but I am not relying solely on it but I tend to look into the FTDNA's database, in the projects of the neighborhood countries as well as the main haplogroup projects.
Of course, predicting subclades on that few str markers is a difficult job however I tend to give my best and try to determine a subclade instead of designating it only with the main haplogroup even if that might not be correct in some cases which probably is true.
That being said, whenever Nevgen couldn't give me a prediction with more than 50% probability I tried to find similar haplotypes in the projects.
For example, here is one haplotype that Nevgen couldn't give precise prediction albeit rightly so, it's only ten markers:
13 25 15 11 11-14 $ $ 11 13 11 30

Based on that I've managed to find an exact match in the database with a man from Bulgaria with origins from Greek Macedonia.
Since the guy from Bulgaria did SNP test and his subclade is R1a-Z280-Z92-CTS4648, the least I can do is to predict the haplotype in question belonging to R1a-Z280.

Hope this helps.

I would like to do an analysis like this for studies for other Balkan and East European countries, but i lack knowledge.

I ran 17 marker data for Serbs through Nevgen, and among R1a there was too much R-Z284 and R-Z93, which don't appear at all among Serbs in public projects. Only with 23 markers the predictions start to make sense.

Do you know perhaps what defines similar haplotypes? Should i just count how many STRs are exactly identical (eg 22 out of 23) ? should i also check the mutation rates of the STRs i'm comparing?

I cannot find any literature about this. All studies either assign basic haplogroups with a predictor, or test for SNPs. But on the R1a project on FTDNA, they assign deeper subclades from STRs only.

slavomir
07-10-2020, 01:23 PM
i found some info about predicting subclades from STRs

if anybody's interested:
http://www.gwozdz.org/PolishClades.html
http://www.jogg.info/pages/52/files/Gwozdz1.pdf
http://www.jogg.info/pages/52/files/Gwozdz2.pdf

J Man
07-15-2020, 01:11 AM
I would like to do an analysis like this for studies for other Balkan and East European countries, but i lack knowledge.

I ran 17 marker data for Serbs through Nevgen, and among R1a there was too much R-Z284 and R-Z93, which don't appear at all among Serbs in public projects. Only with 23 markers the predictions start to make sense.

Do you know perhaps what defines similar haplotypes? Should i just count how many STRs are exactly identical (eg 22 out of 23) ? should i also check the mutation rates of the STRs i'm comparing?

I cannot find any literature about this. All studies either assign basic haplogroups with a predictor, or test for SNPs. But on the R1a project on FTDNA, they assign deeper subclades from STRs only.

Are you interested in Bulgarian haplotypes as well?

slavomir
07-15-2020, 06:41 AM
Are you interested in Bulgarian haplotypes as well?

of course.
i found these 3 sources so far:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404992/
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/bulgariandna/about/background

levantino II
07-15-2020, 08:27 AM
of course.
i found these 3 sources so far:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404992/
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/bulgariandna/about/background

You also have "Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma" 2016. Some 328 samples from Bulgaria, some Gypsys some "general population". Good thing is they have DYS426 and DYS388 included in results, which make prediction much easier at least for J1 haplogroup

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4867443/

levantino II
07-15-2020, 08:30 AM
Are you making Balkan Y-DNA database, something like FTDNA but without FTDNA? If you do, my deepest respect. I tried to do this with just J1 haplotypes and it was very hard. Too much time and concentration for me.

slavomir
07-15-2020, 09:09 AM
Are you making Balkan Y-DNA database, something like FTDNA but without FTDNA? If you do, my deepest respect. I tried to do this with just J1 haplotypes and it was very hard. Too much time and concentration for me.

i want to make y-dna statistics by country and region from all available sources.
like Eupedia.com was doing, but i think they haven't updated in 10 years.

i need the STRs just to predict subclades from them.

eastara
07-15-2020, 09:49 AM
There is an alternative FTDNA Bulgarian project "Central Balkan Mountains", but many individuals take part in both. Be careful, though using FTDNA data. We were thinking of making an open database with Bulgarian results from commercial testing, but could be exposed to law suits for breach of privacy if using such data.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/central-balkan-mountains/dna-results

There is also an old study "Y-chromosomal STR haplotypes in three major population groups in Bulgaria"
Boriana Zaharova, Silvia Andonova, Anja Gilissen, Jean-Jacques Cassiman,Ronny Decorte, Ivo Kremensky - 2001 , the STR haplotypes were also uploaded in the YHRD database.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V2iMgYjZzk_wRxCbVR7ZdA1EYrnId26b91gVRJDMPJQ/edit#gid=0

J Man
07-15-2020, 05:32 PM
of course.
i found these 3 sources so far:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404992/
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/bulgariandna/about/background

There is also this project for Bulgarian Turks. It is a private project though and eastara has a very good point about being careful about using FTDNA project data.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/theturksofbulgaria/about/background

Archetype0ne
07-31-2020, 12:01 PM
I've analysed the str haplotypes of 386 ethnic Macedonians from four different studies:


https://i.postimg.cc/Z5DR4THT/n-386-str.png (https://postimages.org/)

All other haplogroups are found in smaller percentages.

Hey Aspar, hope all is well.

Do you by any chance know what branches of J2 are present in N Macedonia?
I am particularly interested about J2B2 L283 subranches such as PH1751 and mine Y21878. Although I doubt my branch is represented given the sample size.

Aspar
07-31-2020, 02:09 PM
Hey Aspar, hope all is well.

Do you by any chance know what branches of J2 are present in N Macedonia?
I am particularly interested about J2B2 L283 subranches such as PH1751 and mine Y21878. Although I doubt my branch is represented given the sample size.

I am still kicking mate. I hope you are fine as well.

Well of those snp profiled we have:

J-Y80036 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y80036/) - This one shows recent connection with South Albania.
J-Z38240* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240*/) - This one is from a famous Bulgarian/Macedonian family from Greek Macedonia. He forms a subclade with the Norwegian that probably dates to MBA/LBA/EIA however he is not on YFULL.
Also PH1751 is present almost certainly as there are modal haplotypes for this subclade.

Of course there are other subclades as well but we are still to define them.

That being said J-L283 is very old haplogroup in the Balkans and it was for sure present not only among the Illyrians but also ancient Greeks, Thracians, Brygians, Pelasgians, Paeonians etc. Among the Macedonians is found in frequency around 4-5%.

Archetype0ne
07-31-2020, 02:38 PM
I am still kicking mate. I hope you are fine as well.

Well of those snp profiled we have:

J-Y80036 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y80036/) - This one shows recent connection with South Albania.
J-Z38240* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240*/) - This one is from a famous Bulgarian/Macedonian family from Greek Macedonia. He forms a subclade with the Norwegian that probably dates to MBA/LBA/EIA however he is not on YFULL.
Also PH1751 is present almost certainly as there are modal haplotypes for this subclade.

Of course there are other subclades as well but we are still to define them.

That being said J-L283 is very old haplogroup in the Balkans and it was for sure present not only among the Illyrians but also ancient Greeks, Thracians, Brygians, Pelasgians, Paeonians etc. Among the Macedonians is found in frequency around 4-5%.

Thanks for the clarification.

I was curious because to me it seems the biggest difference between Gheg and Tosk Albanians is the J2B2 L283 ratio among them. Based on the limited sample size I have seen in the Geg Albanians its around 25%, while in Kosovo and N Macedonia Albanians it is closer to 30%, whereas in Tosks its around 7%%. EV13 and R1B ratios between Gegs and Tosks are indeed different but still comparable, but J2B L283 is a fraction in Tosks compared to Gegs. Also from outdated data I have from a FTDNA admin J2B L283 peaks at around 7% in Euboea, with another 5% in Korinthia and 1% in Cyprus... So it seems as you go North the percentage rises. So J2B L283 in modern Macedonians is comparable to their ratio in Greeks at ~5% (Not sure about the holistic picture of L283 in the whole of Greece. So don't quote me on this)
As you said this Haplogroup is old and is not exclusive to Albanians (albeit some sublades based on diversity and age seem to have an exclusively Albanian Gheg connection), populations deriving from Illyrians Thracians Aromanians and I guess Paeonians (Although Thracian and Illyrian should be inclusive of them) definitively show a good ratio of L283. Although there are old subclades of L283 found exclusively among Thracian descendants (NM Macedonians, Bulgarians, Vlachs/Aromanians), from what I see there is quite a lot of diversity in haplos exclusively connected to Ghegs.

https://i.imgur.com/p9mfIYt.png

https://i.imgur.com/ay7J92a.png

https://i.imgur.com/Vao44RG.png

The above images show the discrepency of J2B2 L283 among Albanians from various states in the Balkans. Mal i Zi is Crna Gora in Albanian. The rest is understandable I hope.

Aspar
07-31-2020, 06:17 PM
Thanks for the clarification.

I was curious because to me it seems the biggest difference between Gheg and Tosk Albanians is the J2B2 L283 ratio among them. Based on the limited sample size I have seen in the Geg Albanians its around 25%, while in Kosovo and N Macedonia Albanians it is closer to 30%, whereas in Tosks its around 7%%. EV13 and R1B ratios between Gegs and Tosks are indeed different but still comparable, but J2B L283 is a fraction in Tosks compared to Gegs. Also from outdated data I have from a FTDNA admin J2B L283 peaks at around 7% in Euboea, with another 5% in Korinthia and 1% in Cyprus... So it seems as you go North the percentage rises. So J2B L283 in modern Macedonians is comparable to their ratio in Greeks at ~5% (Not sure about the holistic picture of L283 in the whole of Greece. So don't quote me on this)
As you said this Haplogroup is old and is not exclusive to Albanians (albeit some sublades based on diversity and age seem to have an exclusively Albanian Gheg connection), populations deriving from Illyrians Thracians Aromanians and I guess Paeonians (Although Thracian and Illyrian should be inclusive of them) definitively show a good ratio of L283. Although there are old subclades of L283 found exclusively among Thracian descendants (NM Macedonians, Bulgarians, Vlachs/Aromanians), from what I see there is quite a lot of diversity in haplos exclusively connected to Ghegs.

https://i.imgur.com/p9mfIYt.png

https://i.imgur.com/ay7J92a.png

https://i.imgur.com/Vao44RG.png

The above images show the discrepency of J2B2 L283 among Albanians from various states in the Balkans. Mal i Zi is Crna Gora in Albanian. The rest is understandable I hope.

From what I can see here the ratio of different haplogroups in N.Macedonians is more similar to that of the Tosks than it is in Ghegs with of course varying percentages in different haplogroups, Tosks have more of R1b, E-V13, J2b2, J2a and J1, while there is more I2 and R1a in N.Macedonians.
Although from what I can see J2b2 although less in Tosks than Ghegs is still quite diverse in South Albania. There is even an Aromanian from Korce that forms a parallel branch to the most frequent J2b2 branch among the Ghegs.
Certainly it's interesting the situation between the Tosks and the Ghegs regarding their y-dna because they do show some difference not only in the ratio of certain haplogroups but also difference in subclades, I believe some subclades are exclusively found in South Albania(Laberians and Tosks), others exclusively in Ghegs, correct me if I am wrong on this.
It seems to me that the Ghegs might be descendants of some more northern Illyrian tribes that have been pushed further south by the Serb and Croat tribes. Probably descendants of tribes such as Autariatae...

Hawk
07-31-2020, 10:06 PM
How much of E-V13 is S2979?

And, is Z5018 or Z5017 more prevalent on general?

Bruzmi
08-01-2020, 01:45 AM
From what I can see here the ratio of different haplogroups in N.Macedonians is more similar to that of the Tosks than it is in Ghegs with of course varying percentages in different haplogroups, Tosks have more of R1b, E-V13, J2b2, J2a and J1, while there is more I2 and R1a in N.Macedonians.
Although from what I can see J2b2 although less in Tosks than Ghegs is still quite diverse in South Albania. There is even an Aromanian from Korce that forms a parallel branch to the most frequent J2b2 branch among the Ghegs.
Certainly it's interesting the situation between the Tosks and the Ghegs regarding their y-dna because they do show some difference not only in the ratio of certain haplogroups but also difference in subclades, I believe some subclades are exclusively found in South Albania(Laberians and Tosks), others exclusively in Ghegs, correct me if I am wrong on this.
It seems to me that the Ghegs might be descendants of some more northern Illyrian tribes that have been pushed further south by the Serb and Croat tribes. Probably descendants of tribes such as Autariatae...

The Autariatae, had migrated en masse (c. 20000 people) since the time of Phillip, father of Alexander the Great in the modern border area between Greece, NMacedonia and Bulgaria in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belasica mountain range.

There is a problem of methodology in adding up samples from different studies and then calculating an average, just as there is a problem of methodology with adding up samples in order to get a "Geg" or "Tosk" average. The problem has to do with regional over-representation of certain samples in lack of large-scale sampling. That is why your average of E-V13 is considerably higher than the average in "Y-chromosome Diversity of the Three Major Ethno-Linguistic Groups in the Republic of North Macedonia" (~27% to ~20%). Also, it is (one of the reasons) of the differences in J2b-L83 between northern and southern Albania. In general, regarding southern Albania: it is difficult to get a properly weighted regional representation because of the heavy migration from that area and the geographical disappearance of many lineages because of that since the Middle Ages. While most fis/tribes of northern Albania even if they disappeared as distinct units left lineages and descendants in other fis or at least in a single village, many of the tribes of southern Albania migrated in a complete manner and left only toponyms in the country.

This second part also makes the error of inaccurate categorization because there are no "Gegs" and "Tosks" in the way non-Albanian literature often perceives them. The people who call themselves Tosk are a very specific subset of southern Albanians, just as the people who are actualy Geg are a very specific subset of northern Albanians. A Lab is not a Tosk and a Malėsor is not Geg, to put it in simple terms.

Archetype0ne
08-01-2020, 03:43 AM
The Autariatae, had migrated en masse (c. 20000 people) since the time of Phillip, father of Alexander the Great in the modern border area between Greece, NMacedonia and Bulgaria in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belasica mountain range.

There is a problem of methodology in adding up samples from different studies and then calculating an average, just as there is a problem of methodology with adding up samples in order to get a "Geg" or "Tosk" average. The problem has to do with regional over-representation of certain samples in lack of large-scale sampling. That is why your average of E-V13 is considerably higher than the average in "Y-chromosome Diversity of the Three Major Ethno-Linguistic Groups in the Republic of North Macedonia" (~27% to ~20%). Also, it is (one of the reasons) of the differences in J2b-L83 between northern and southern Albania. In general, regarding southern Albania: it is difficult to get a properly weighted regional representation because of the heavy migration from that area and the geographical disappearance of many lineages because of that since the Middle Ages. While most fis/tribes of northern Albania even if they disappeared as distinct units left lineages and descendants in other fis or at least in a single village, many of the tribes of southern Albania migrated in a complete manner and left only toponyms in the country.

This second part also makes the error of inaccurate categorization because there are no "Gegs" and "Tosks" in the way non-Albanian literature often perceives them. The people who call themselves Tosk are a very specific subset of southern Albanians, just as the people who are actualy Geg are a very specific subset of northern Albanians. A Lab is not a Tosk and a Malėsor is not Geg, to put it in simple terms.

Have to agree with point 1 and 2 (paragraph 1 and 2).
With regards to paragraph 3, albeit I agree with the premise I do not agree with the conclusion. It is true that Gheg and Tosk are social constructs (Just like modern nationalities, if genetics have taught us anything). It is true that the sample size of <1000 is in no way representative of the whole (~5+ Mil people between AL, KS, MK). It is true that simply taking the percentage of the haplogroup representation as an indicator is shabby methodology without looking into deeper clades, geography, diversity etc. However, I can not agree with your very last sentence. It could be my personal ignorance - but Malėsor are a subcategory of Gheg, and although not sure how Labs would categorize themselves, all the sources I have come across and the people I have discussed this with considered/would consider them/selves Tosk.

What my point is/was in the previous post: Tosk and Gheg as subcategories of Albanians. The percentage of representation of particular YDNA lineages among such groups does not define who is Albanian and who is not.

I am not that handy with analyzing the particular branches, diversity etc of L283, Trojet did a good job, albeit the only tables I could find were a bit outdated (2017, found some from 2019,2020 but they were just branch graphics, not holistic). However one can not simply deny the proportional discrepancy of L283 between Ghegs and Tosks.

Afaik the currently used subcategories for modern Albanians are Gheg, Tosk and Arbėresh. Correct me if I am wrong.

I am sorry for derailing this thread, was not my intention, maybe me and Maleschreiber should take this into PM's. Mods feel free to remove this/my post since it does not add anything to the "Y-dna of ethnic Macedonians from four DNA studies thread".

Aspar
08-01-2020, 10:08 AM
How much of E-V13 is S2979?

And, is Z5018 or Z5017 more prevalent on general?

There is S2979 however I can't say for sure how much is S2979 as it's difficult to predict subclades of E-V13 solely on str markers however we do have snp confirmed S2979 N.Macedonians.

Again difficult to say which one is more prevalent but I will give advantage to Z5017 and more specifically CTS9320 on which falls great part of Z5017 in N.Macedonians.

Kelmendasi
08-01-2020, 10:11 AM
Have to agree with point 1 and 2 (paragraph 1 and 2).
With regards to paragraph 3, albeit I agree with the premise I do not agree with the conclusion. It is true that Gheg and Tosk are social constructs (Just like modern nationalities, if genetics have taught us anything). It is true that the sample size of <1000 is in no way representative of the whole (~5+ Mil people between AL, KS, MK). It is true that simply taking the percentage of the haplogroup representation as an indicator is shabby methodology without looking into deeper clades, geography, diversity etc. However, I can not agree with your very last sentence. It could be my personal ignorance - but Malėsor are a subcategory of Gheg, and although not sure how Labs would categorize themselves, all the sources I have come across and the people I have discussed this with considered/would consider them/selves Tosk.

What my point is/was in the previous post: Tosk and Gheg as subcategories of Albanians. The percentage of representation of particular YDNA lineages among such groups does not define who is Albanian and who is not.

I am not that handy with analyzing the particular branches, diversity etc of L283, Trojet did a good job, albeit the only tables I could find were a bit outdated (2017, found some from 2019,2020 but they were just branch graphics, not holistic). However one can not simply deny the proportional discrepancy of L283 between Ghegs and Tosks.

Afaik the currently used subcategories for modern Albanians are Gheg, Tosk and Arbėresh. Correct me if I am wrong.

I am sorry for derailing this thread, was not my intention, maybe me and Maleschreiber should take this into PM's. Mods feel free to remove this/my post since it does not add anything to the "Y-dna of ethnic Macedonians from four DNA studies thread".
I too do not want to derail the thread, however I just want to chime in on this. Maleschreiber is correct in saying that Gegs are in fact a specific sub-group of North Albanians, in the ethnographic or traditional sense. Traditionally Geg was only used to refer to the Albanians that lived in the region of Gegnia, that stretched from the northern banks of the Shkumbin and into the border between Mati and Mirdita. After that we get the regions of Leknia/Dukagjin and Malėsi. There is also the so-called "fushat bregdetare tė veriut tė Shqipėrisė" which seems to be included as a part of Gegni but is also somewhat separate ethnographically in that it has a mixed population of locals and migrants that came especially from regions such as Malėsi. http://www.bibliotekashkoder.com/doc/gegnia_6.pdf.

However, if we were to talk about dialectal classifications, there are only Geg and Tosk Albanians. The Albanian Y-DNA Project classifies them in terms of dialect, which is easier and more simplistic.

Aspar
08-01-2020, 10:26 AM
The Autariatae, had migrated en masse (c. 20000 people) since the time of Phillip, father of Alexander the Great in the modern border area between Greece, NMacedonia and Bulgaria in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belasica mountain range.

There is a problem of methodology in adding up samples from different studies and then calculating an average, just as there is a problem of methodology with adding up samples in order to get a "Geg" or "Tosk" average. The problem has to do with regional over-representation of certain samples in lack of large-scale sampling. That is why your average of E-V13 is considerably higher than the average in "Y-chromosome Diversity of the Three Major Ethno-Linguistic Groups in the Republic of North Macedonia" (~27% to ~20%). Also, it is (one of the reasons) of the differences in J2b-L83 between northern and southern Albania. In general, regarding southern Albania: it is difficult to get a properly weighted regional representation because of the heavy migration from that area and the geographical disappearance of many lineages because of that since the Middle Ages. While most fis/tribes of northern Albania even if they disappeared as distinct units left lineages and descendants in other fis or at least in a single village, many of the tribes of southern Albania migrated in a complete manner and left only toponyms in the country.

This second part also makes the error of inaccurate categorization because there are no "Gegs" and "Tosks" in the way non-Albanian literature often perceives them. The people who call themselves Tosk are a very specific subset of southern Albanians, just as the people who are actualy Geg are a very specific subset of northern Albanians. A Lab is not a Tosk and a Malėsor is not Geg, to put it in simple terms.

Well probably you are right on many things about the Gegs-Tosk relation and probably you know more than me on this matter. I admit my answer to the other user was more of speculation more so because I wanted to give him an answer regarding the question he asked me although I don't know a lot about the matter.

I certainly don't agree on the second part because having samples from unrelated studies is certainly better way of finding an average than relying on a single study. "Y-chromosome Diversity of the Three Major Ethno-Linguistic Groups in the Republic of North Macedonia" alone shows some discrepancies when comparing with the other studies, namely the equal percentage of E1b and R1a which is certainly not the case as none of the other studies showed such a pattern. On the other hand the study "Genetic data for 17 Y-chromosomal STR loci in Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia" shows a frequency of E1b among N.Macedonians of above >30% as shown already by 130 samples from that study alone which again is not realy the case as Albanians most certainly have more E1b than N.Macedonians.
Plus the average of all these studies looks very reliable because when compared with other neighboring ethnicities the average looks most similar to that of the Bulgarians. N.Macedonians have more E1b than Bulgarians however which is nothing strange because E1b peaks up in Albanians so there is a cline:
https://i.postimg.cc/YjcnSx2s/E-V13-frequency.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

So N.Macedonians having around 25% E1b is definitely not out of equation when the patterns shows high frequency of this haplogroup in the region, even among the Serbs of Kosovo.

Hawk
08-02-2020, 11:59 AM
There is S2979 however I can't say for sure how much is S2979 as it's difficult to predict subclades of E-V13 solely on str markers however we do have snp confirmed S2979 N.Macedonians.

Again difficult to say which one is more prevalent but I will give advantage to Z5017 and more specifically CTS9320 on which falls great part of Z5017 in N.Macedonians.

I am sure Ancient Macedonians will have a lot of E-V13 considering that they were the northernmost Greeks, would be interesting to compare the subclades whether modern Macedonians carry Paeonian/Thracian or Macedonian, or they rather had similar subclades after all.

Aspar
08-03-2020, 07:46 PM
I am sure Ancient Macedonians will have a lot of E-V13 considering that they were the northernmost Greeks, would be interesting to compare the subclades whether modern Macedonians carry Paeonian/Thracian or Macedonian, or they rather had similar subclades after all.

Who knows, we don't have such samples to compare. I think that the modern Macedonians compared to the ancient Balkan people have mostly Thracian related lineages but also others as well. Many Macedonians share subclades with Albanians dating to the Medieval period which speaks of incorporation of Albanoid population in the ethnogenesis of the modern Macedonians. Such subclades among the Macedonians are R-BY611, E-Z38456, some subclades of J-L283 etc. But many such as myself don't have Albanian matches whatsoever in the last 4300 years as per BY3880's TMRCA the only SNP I share with Albanians till now. I am somehow 'closer' to a Bulgarian from Eastern Bulgaria sharing with me an ancestor 4100 ybp. Because of such a limited information I can't tell what ancient people my BA, IA and Roman age ancestors that transmitted the y-dna I carry today to me and my immediate ancestors belonged. Probably with more sampling in the future me and many other Macedonians will be able to.