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sheepslayer
06-22-2020, 05:32 PM
https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y11200/ is an interesting branch. It probably formed near Mesopotamia during the Copper Age, from where it spread to places like Georgia, Turkey, and England.

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Y11200 and its predecessors have been found in human remains all the way from Europe to the BMAC, concentrated along the southeastern coast of the Black Sea. Today the mutation is present among a family of Arabs from Riyadh, a few Chechens, and 6 or 7 Americans with matches in western Europe.

Trying to figure out how this branch spread is confusing. This thread is for discussing Y11200 and related branches. What do you think happened?

Principe
06-22-2020, 05:57 PM
My honest opinion and based on the data we have so far, well there was Y11200* found in Maykop, I think Y11200 was part of a Mesopotamian influx into the Caucasus during the Neolithic, likely from Uruk period, I am actually convinced that all of Y3020 came together. By Chalcolithic I would imagine that Y11200 was already in the areas of Proto Maykop like Meshoko (which was also Y3020*), from Bronze Age spreads in multiple directions make entire sense.

sheepslayer
06-22-2020, 06:17 PM
My honest opinion and based on the data we have so far, well there was Y11200* found in Maykop, I think Y11200 was part of a Mesopotamian influx into the Caucasus during the Neolithic, likely from Uruk period, I am actually convinced that all of Y3020 came together. By Chalcolithic I would imagine that Y11200 was already in the areas of Proto Maykop like Meshoko (which was also Y3020*), from Bronze Age spreads in multiple directions make entire sense.

You're right about Y11200 being in the Maykop area earlier. One of the Meshoko guys actually tested positive for Y11200, I think it was sample I2056. Y11200 proliferated after at least 5050 BC according to YFull, and that sample was dated to around 4500 BC. However, due to there being vestiges of the branch in Saudi Arabia, I'm inclined to believe that even Z30677 formed closer to Mesopotamia, splitting into the Caucasus-bound Y20512 and the esoteric Z30682, which holds many more Jews and Portuguese islanders than it does Chechens.

I think many branches under CTS6804 formed in the Caucasus, but Y11200 seems to reflect multiple waves of different branches being swept into the Caucasus by some continued impulse in their urheimat further south.

Principe
06-22-2020, 06:53 PM
You're right about Y11200 being in the Maykop area earlier. One of the Meshoko guys actually tested positive for Y11200, I think it was sample I2056. Y11200 proliferated after at least 5050 BC according to YFull, and that sample was dated to around 4500 BC. However, due to there being vestiges of the branch in Saudi Arabia, I'm inclined to believe that even Z30677 formed closer to Mesopotamia, splitting into the Caucasus-bound Y20512 and the esoteric Z30682, which holds many more Jews and Portuguese islanders than it does Chechens.


I think many branches under CTS6804 formed in the Caucasus, but Y11200 seems to reflect multiple waves of different branches being swept into the Caucasus by some continued impulse in their urheimat further south.

We will see when more data comes through, seeing Y11200 that old does give higher odds.

RCO
06-22-2020, 09:43 PM
Normal J distribution. Several other branches have more or less the same distribution in the last 8000 years.

sheepslayer
06-24-2020, 06:10 PM
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Made a sketch of the FTDNA haplotree of Y11200. If anyone uses SNP Tracker they'll be familiar with these colors. Blue SNPs were formed during the Neolithic/Chalcolithic, while teal are from the Bronze Age and greens are from the Iron Age. Yellow mutations are from during the Roman period.

sheepslayer
07-20-2020, 10:13 PM
Here are my SNPs, I figured I would just line them up so I could have a solid reference. Also figured I'd post the chart here because it seems to shed some light on the history of Y11200:
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I've been interested in the structure of this phylogenetic tree, particularly the way it splits and the time frame. Couple things to note:

1. Check out where the major discontinuities are. 2 big events in the Mesolithic, 2 Neolithic, and 1 Bronze. I recognize that these aren't real "events" as much as they are trends in observed data (every man has his own branch but most aren't tested), but still. Being able to date the big splits helps bind the mutations to historical context, and it produces some cool results.

2. The "Spread during" column is taken from the recent bound of YFull's 95% confidence interval for the formation of each branch (the "formed before" date). Whichever period this date falls in, I list the subsequent period as the one during which the branch "proliferated." If a mutation only formed before a certain date, it must exist afterward. Ancient DNA from the "formation period" should be sought after and regarded as basal, while DNA from the period after that (i.e. the "spread period") demonstrates where these people went after the branch formed. It's a very speculative approach, but also safe approach with a few useful guarantees.

Got my data from the Block Tree, via http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/treeExplorer.html . Indispensable tool

sheepslayer
08-18-2020, 09:16 PM
New Neolithic split at level Z30677
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sheepslayer
08-21-2020, 09:07 PM
New match from Iraq joins Late Bronze Age branch BY44714, down to level BY44562/Y142842. According to STRs the branch will coalesce closer to AD 1000. The Chechens will progress the clade into a new split, leaving the Iraqi match at BY44562* to find more matches in the Fertile Crescent
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PS: Did some digging on Russian websites. The text in the two Y142842 Chechens' FTDNA blurbs translate to "Qurayshi Arabs," so that seems to narrow things down quite a bit. The proportion of self-proclaimed Arab descendants and other Levant peoples keeps growing in this branch. I'd say it's about on par with all the hidden Georgians in the STRs. Currently figuring out which STRs each branch has in common.

hartaisarlag
08-21-2020, 09:23 PM
Anyone know what PGA4 signifies under J-Y63950?

sheepslayer
08-23-2020, 08:09 PM
Anyone know what PGA4 signifies under J-Y63950?

Wow, that one is brand new. Y63950 is off to a good start.

To try and answer your question, though, I emailed YFull the other week and they told me they'll put any ancient samples on their tree for free if they look at the bam and think it's good enough quality. They asked me what I had so I sent them one of those Arslantepe samples from Skourtanioti et al. 2020, the one who was positive for Z30679. If I had to guess, I would tell you PGA4 is my ancient sample that they are analyzing. I could be wrong.

I looked for other PGAs and could only find PGA3, under R-Z330

sheepslayer
10-14-2020, 04:40 PM
Took a manual look at R1551.. On level Y30812 there's 1 read each for FT136784+, Y30810+, and Y68221+, but multiple reads for BY37883-. The one-offs don't look like damage but there is damage elsewhere. R1551 is positive for Y139254 itself by multiple reads, I think it's 3 or 4. 1 read each for BY6770+, FT349679+, FT349970+, and Y139229+. BY139500 is all negative so it could be Y30812 > Y139254*

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Is this just damaged? Lots of non-damagey stuff going on with these reads but is there a chance Y139254 is supposed to split the Y30812 block before BY37883?

sheepslayer
02-09-2021, 08:55 PM
So I've spent a lot of my free time lately looking at the structure of Y11200 within the context of PF5116 and Z7671. It all seems to circle back to one observation:

If you look at Z7671 you will encounter a few branches who, as soon as they split from the central Z7671 -> Y3620 progression, contain zero participants who are living in the Caucasus. The prime examples I have for this phenomenon are denoted by mutations BY61128 and PH1244.
Considering the discovery of the 2 Chechen DNA testers beneath BY44714 claiming descent from the Arabic Quraysh tribe instead of traditional Chechen family organizations (such as teips or tukkhums), the Z30682 half of Y11200 also seems entirely absent from the Caucasus. The only other known Russian tester positive for Z30682 is Jewish and shares the mutation PH355 with other Jewish people from eastern Europe.

Let's look at Z30682 for a moment. This mutation formed alongside Y20512 as part of the spread of Z30677+ men circa the 4100s BC. Y20512 has been found in Georgians, Arabic people from Riyadh, a Pontic immigrant in Rome, and some eastern Caucasian people; Z30682+ sites so far involve Hungary and eastern Anatolia (Arslantepe) during the bronze age.

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Attached above is the truncated view of Z30682 according to FTDNA, along with the structure of Z30682 as I see it. It might appear as though I am employing a bias towards my results and am trying to steer the tree towards Y23163, but you must understand that FT29661 BY159622 and BY44714 are the only branches splitting from Y11200 that are not one-off mutations. All three are similar in that they are progressions of mutations. Y11200 can be simplified to the early split of larger FT29661 followed by the late split of the two larger Y23163+ branches.

Given this wall of context I have just spewed, I'm curious how others feel about where Z30682 originated. My two best theories are that it originated and lingered in Mesopotamia, and that it originated in the Georgian part of the Caucasus and spread with the Kura-Araxes culture into the north Levant (Khirbet Kerak ware, I can't remember if it was Agamemnon or Principe who introduced me to this). Both theories seem very plausible to me. I'm still having a difficult time eliminating a Mesopotamian origin, as that or a Kura-Araxes alignment could both tie in with all the testers from Arabic countries. It will certainly require more ancient DNA to find out for sure, but if what I showed you gives you any ideas I'd certalily like to hear what you think