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View Full Version : R-Z2123 AKA SRUBNAYA ORIGIN OF THE HUNGARIAN ÁRPÁD (TURUL) DINASTY



Zulca
06-23-2020, 03:52 PM
http://epa.oszk.hu/03100/03120/00077/pdf/EPA03120_anthropologiai_kozlemenyek_2018_011-029.pdf

Coldmountains
06-28-2020, 09:33 PM
Z2123 is very widespread and exists from England to China and from the Volga region to India. Z2123 itself is around 4000-5000 years old, so it probably existed in various Indo-Iranian subgroups already in the Late Bronze Age.

The earliest Z2123 found yet seems to be from Sintashta and Potapovka. In the MLBA Steppe it was quite frequent including Srubnaya but it seems Z2125>S23592 very much became dominant among later Saka and Huns with some Z2123 occasionaly popping up in the Iron Age/Historical era steppe. But i have the feeling that future sampled groups of Scythians in Ukraine and Russia will show more of it and this groups could be ancestral to Arpad Z2123.


Sintashta Russia Stepnoe VII [RISE392] M 2126-1896 BC R1a1a1b S224; Tagankin reads R1a1a1b2a2a (Z2123) + downstream SNP Y877+, Y939- J2b1a2a

Potapovka, Russia, 2200-1900 BC I0419, R1a1a1b2a2a

Srubnaya Russia Spiridonovka II, Samara River, Samara [I0430/SVP 39] M 1850-1600 BC R1a1a1b2a2a Z2123 H3g

Early Andronovo,Kazakhstan, I3770, 2132-1940 calBCE Y-DNA: R1a1a1b2a2a

Coldmountains
06-29-2020, 07:58 AM
Interestingly Z2123 is unlike Z2125>S23592 widespread in Iran, Kurdistan and India (especially South India). It very much has a pan-Indo-Iranian distribution. This could be related to some Saka incursions but i rather suspect that some of it arrived with earliest Indo-Iranians in South Eurasia. If it arrived with Saka i would also expect S23592 in South Eurasia but untill yet it was not found in India, Iran or Kurdistan.

Zulca
07-13-2020, 01:23 PM
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-020-0683-z

Zulca
07-13-2020, 01:27 PM
Árpáds z2123 is found in bactria 4500 years ago , next in Bashkiria. The moving from Bashkiria is 2000 years ago maybe as sarmatians or hunno-sarmatians
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-020-0683-z

Coldmountains
07-13-2020, 01:45 PM
Árpáds z2123 is found in bactria 4500 years ago , next in Bashkiria. The moving from Bashkiria is 2000 years ago maybe as sarmatians or hunno-sarmatians
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-020-0683-z

well there was no Z2123 or Z93 in 2500 B.C near Bactria. The migration of Z93 into Central Asia just started around 2000 B.C.

The basal clades to Arpad Z2123 in North Afghanistan are not really a prove for Arpad getting his line from South Central Asia. At first it is a rare line among Tajiks and Uzbeks and second we don't know how it arrived there. Only ancient dna can really prove that. Maybe it only recently arrived with Turks. The absence of this clade among Pashtuns is pointing to that.

South Central Asian R-Y2632 diverged from Arpad Y2632 almost 4000 year ago so we don't really now how it ethnically is related to Bashkir/Arpad Y2632

Zulca
07-14-2020, 02:28 PM
exactly: R1a1a1b2a2a1c3a3b

parasar
07-14-2020, 05:25 PM
Árpáds z2123 is found in bactria 4500 years ago , next in Bashkiria. The moving from Bashkiria is 2000 years ago maybe as sarmatians or hunno-sarmatians
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-020-0683-z

The Hungarian annals talk about Persia (Persida) or maybe the Indus (terram Evilath) as the place of orgin for the Hunor Magor.
Chronica Hungarorum https://books.google.com/books?id=Ubgz-ZFowd4C&pg=PA55

Afshar
07-14-2020, 06:40 PM
They dropped a lot of samples https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2632/

Ricardoni
03-29-2021, 03:11 PM
Interestingly Z2123 is unlike Z2125>S23592 widespread in Iran, Kurdistan and India (especially South India). It very much has a pan-Indo-Iranian distribution. This could be related to some Saka incursions but i rather suspect that some of it arrived with earliest Indo-Iranians in South Eurasia. If it arrived with Saka i would also expect S23592 in South Eurasia but untill yet it was not found in India, Iran or Kurdistan.
The distribution is pan-Turkic: https://i.imgur.com/l95O2di.png
https://i.imgur.com/ATbdoG8.png
https://i.imgur.com/p9jokfq.png
Basically Tatars, Bashkirs, Karachay, Balkars, Uzbeks & Turkmens of Afghanistan.

Coldmountains
03-29-2021, 03:57 PM
The distribution is pan-Turkic: https://i.imgur.com/l95O2di.png
https://i.imgur.com/ATbdoG8.png
https://i.imgur.com/p9jokfq.png
Basically Tatars, Bashkirs, Karachay, Balkars, Uzbeks & Turkmens of Afghanistan.

There is based on absolute numbers likely more Z2123 in South Asia than in Central Asia or Siberia today. At least around 5-10% of Y-DNA in Afghanistan (including Pashtuns), India and Pakistan is under Z2123. Also their subclades are mostly under z2123 which diverged around or before 2000 B.C from Saka-Turkic Z2123 clades.

Z2123 is likely much older than 2000 B.C when Indo-Iranians finally split and was already present among Proto-Indo-Aryans, Proto-Iranics and probably also Nuristani based on Kalash being Z2123 too (All of Kalash R1a so far seems to be Z2123)

altvred
03-29-2021, 04:08 PM
The distribution is pan-Turkic: https://i.imgur.com/l95O2di.png
https://i.imgur.com/ATbdoG8.png
https://i.imgur.com/p9jokfq.png
Basically Tatars, Bashkirs, Karachay, Balkars, Uzbeks & Turkmens of Afghanistan.
The TMRCA of Z2123 predates the Turkic expansion by a few thousand years, likely a Steppe Iranian marker that got assimilated.

Coldmountains
03-29-2021, 06:38 PM
The TMRCA of Z2123 predates the Turkic expansion by a few thousand years, likely a Steppe Iranian marker that got assimilated.

There are many Z2123 clades that seem to be Proto-Indo-Aryan like these for example. They look in my eyes strongly Proto-Indo-Aryan because they seem to peak in South and East India which would show the least Saka or Iranic admix. Also, they diverged around/before 2000 B.C and were not found among Saka, Turkic or Iranic populations without an Indo-Aryan substrate. These lines also correlate in terms of distribution very much with Indo-Aryan R1a-L657.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y47/ (Found in South and East India, Afghanistan especially Ghilzai Pashtuns,)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y29452/ (Found among Kalash)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-SK2031/ (Found in South and East India, Afghanistan,Pamir)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y43743/ (Found in East India)

altvred
03-29-2021, 07:14 PM
There are many Z2123 clades that seem to be Proto-Indo-Aryan like these for example. They look in my eyes strongly Proto-Indo-Aryan because they seem to peak in South and East India which would show the least Saka or Iranic admix. Also, they diverged around/before 2000 B.C and were not found among Saka, Turkic or Iranic populations without an Indo-Aryan substrate. These lines also correlate in terms of distribution very much with Indo-Aryan R1a-L657.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y47/ (Found in South and East India, Afghanistan especially Ghilzai Pashtuns,)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y29452/ (Found among Kalash)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-SK2031/ (Found in South and East India, Afghanistan,Pamir)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y43743/ (Found in East India)

Yeah, I should have specified that the lineages carried by Turkic-speakers in the Volga and the Caucasus were probably originally Iranian, not Z2123 as a whole since, as you pointed out, a lot of the subclades are exclusive to South Asia.

Furthermore, most of the Uzbeks belong to the same branches as their Iranic neighbors rather than sharing them with fellow Turkic speakers further to the West - so the idea that Z2123 is a 'Pan-Turkic' haplogroup is ridiculous.

Coldmountains
03-29-2021, 08:26 PM
One Sintashta sample (I1053) under Z2123 was uploaded on YFull and it seems to have really high quality (9x Y-DNA coverage). He is under basal Y874* which diverged according to YFULL around 1800 B.C but likely in reality a bit earlier around 2000-2500 B.C (Yfull tends to underestimate ages by around 10-15%) falling in the period of the formation of Proto-Indo-Iranians.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y874/


Distance to: RUS_Sintashta_MLBA:I1053
0.02611141 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
0.02654024 RUS_Poltavka_o
0.02781235 Corded_Ware_CZE
0.02800495 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.02812165 SVK_EBA
0.02834400 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.03051004 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
0.03064530 KAZ_Karagash_MLBA
0.03082566 Corded_Ware_CHE
0.03112335 KAZ_Kairan_MLBA
0.03180633 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.03264715 KAZ_Bylkyldak_MLBA
0.03427460 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.03473859 KAZ_Chanchar_LBA
0.03528624 CZE_EBA
0.03668997 Corded_Ware_POL