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akash
06-24-2020, 07:09 PM
Do we know which Jewish or any other ethnic group today is closes to the original Israelites of the Torah/Bible Dna/Genetics wise? Have there been any tests done to find out? When I was living in Saudi Arabia, I heard there are many Arab tribes who live in the North West of the country who are actually Jewish in origin, many actually might be the 12 lost tribes of Israel.

Michalis Moriopoulos
06-24-2020, 07:45 PM
Romaniotes. Maybe Mustaarabi Syrian Jews are about as close but from what I remember they're mostly Romaniote-like themselves (but with Mesopotamian ancestry probably via Mizrahi gene flow from further east).

As far as other ethnic groups, Samaritans and Levantine Christians.

Erikl86
06-24-2020, 08:41 PM
Do we know which Jewish or any other ethnic group today is closes to the original Israelites of the Torah/Bible Dna/Genetics wise? Have there been any tests done to find out? When I was living in Saudi Arabia, I heard there are many Arab tribes who live in the North West of the country who are actually Jewish in origin, many actually might be the 12 lost tribes of Israel.


Depends at which stage.

Are we talking about Iron Age, pre-Babylonian and Assyrian exile Israelites? (so early Israelites)

Are we talking about post Babylonian Israelites/Judahites?

Are we talking about Roman-era Judean Jews?

Overall, the closest modern Torah-following adherents to early Israelites are Samaritans. Considering they follow pretty much the same 5 books that Jews deem the most sacred (albeit few differences in the versions of these books), written in a dialect of the same language (Samaritan Hebrew vs. Jewish Hebrew), and follow a lot of the same religious practices (circumcision on the 8th day, kosher laws, celebrate the three high holidays Jews celebrate - Rosh HaShana, Passover and Shavuot and name them the same way, and even follow a very similar calendar), I'd say they could be considered closest that could be to Jews not only culturally, but also to ancient Israelites genetically. Legally, in modern day Israel, they are treated as such in any case.

Following them and also autosomally plotting in modern Levant are Egyptian Karaite Jews, but this could be because they have substantial Mesopotamian admixture which pulls them Eastward than where they would have plotted without that admixture.

Followed after them are Syrian Jews and Iraqi Jews - both plot extremely close to other Levantines but show shift toward East Mediterraneans in the case of Syrian Jews, and Mesopotamian in the case of Iraqi Jews.

After that, Romaniote Jews seem to also plot close to the Levant.

In my opinion, and this was the base of the premise which I held (and still does) when I started the now very long Western Jews thread which you can read here (http://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture), I believe that when we'll find Jews from the closer period to the Roman exile, they'll already plot similar in some ways to either Syrian Jews/Romaniotes, or Aegean (or even Anatolian from ancient Asian Hellenes)-shifted Levantines.

hartaisarlag
06-24-2020, 09:09 PM
Depends at which stage.

Are we talking about Iron Age, pre-Babylonian and Assyrian exile Israelites? (so early Israelites)

Are we talking about post Babylonian Israelites/Judahites?

Are we talking about Roman-era Judean Jews?

Overall, the closest modern Torah-following adherents to early Israelites are Samaritans. Considering they follow pretty much the same 5 books that Jews deem the most sacred (albeit few differences in the versions of these books), written in a dialect of the same language (Samaritan Hebrew vs. Jewish Hebrew), and follow a lot of the same religious practices (circumcision on the 8th day, kosher laws, celebrate the three high holidays Jews celebrate - Rosh HaShana, Passover and Shavuot and name them the same way, and even follow a very similar calendar), I'd say they could be considered closest that could be to Jews not only culturally, but also to ancient Israelites genetically. Legally, in modern day Israel, they are treated as such in any case.

Following them and also autosomally plotting in modern Levant are Egyptian Karaite Jews, but this could be because they have substantial Mesopotamian admixture which pulls them Eastward than where they would have plotted without that admixture.

Followed after them are Syrian Jews and Iraqi Jews - both plot extremely close to other Levantines but show shift toward East Mediterraneans in the case of Syrian Jews, and Mesopotamian in the case of Iraqi Jews.

After that, Romaniote Jews seem to also plot close to the Levant.

In my opinion, and this was the base of the premise which I held (and still does) when I started the now very long Western Jews thread which you can read here (http://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture), I believe that when we'll find Jews from the closer period to the Roman exile, they'll already plot similar in some ways to either Syrian Jews/Romaniotes, or Aegean (or even Anatolian from ancient Asian Hellenes)-shifted Levantines.

Would you say Romaniotes plot closer than Libyan or Tunisian Jews?

akash
06-24-2020, 09:19 PM
Depends at which stage.

Are we talking about Iron Age, pre-Babylonian and Assyrian exile Israelites? (so early Israelites)

Are we talking about post Babylonian Israelites/Judahites?

Are we talking about Roman-era Judean Jews?

Overall, the closest modern Torah-following adherents to early Israelites are Samaritans. Considering they follow pretty much the same 5 books that Jews deem the most sacred (albeit few differences in the versions of these books), written in a dialect of the same language (Samaritan Hebrew vs. Jewish Hebrew), and follow a lot of the same religious practices (circumcision on the 8th day, kosher laws, celebrate the three high holidays Jews celebrate - Rosh HaShana, Passover and Shavuot and name them the same way, and even follow a very similar calendar), I'd say they could be considered closest that could be to Jews not only culturally, but also to ancient Israelites genetically. Legally, in modern day Israel, they are treated as such in any case.

Following them and also autosomally plotting in modern Levant are Egyptian Karaite Jews, but this could be because they have substantial Mesopotamian admixture which pulls them Eastward than where they would have plotted without that admixture.

Followed after them are Syrian Jews and Iraqi Jews - both plot extremely close to other Levantines but show shift toward East Mediterraneans in the case of Syrian Jews, and Mesopotamian in the case of Iraqi Jews.

After that, Romaniote Jews seem to also plot close to the Levant.

In my opinion, and this was the base of the premise which I held (and still does) when I started the now very long Western Jews thread which you can read here (http://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture), I believe that when we'll find Jews from the closer period to the Roman exile, they'll already plot similar in some ways to either Syrian Jews/Romaniotes, or Aegean (or even Anatolian from ancient Asian Hellenes)-shifted Levantines.

Interesting, were the Samaritians always living in the present day land of Israel? or were they living in other parts of Middle East? didn't really know about them until today.

Johnny ola
06-24-2020, 09:25 PM
The Palestinian Beit Sahour are also an a good example of ancient israelites,thought they are probably arabicized Samaritans or something?I am not sure but they plot similar with Samaritans.

hartaisarlag
06-24-2020, 09:29 PM
The Palestinian Beit Sahour are also an a good example of ancient israelites,thought they are probably arabicized Samaritans or something?I am not sure but they plot similar with Samaritans.

Yes, they do, but worth noting that Samaritans are the only modern Levantine group that scores closer to Bronze Age Canaanites and Iron Age I-IIA Canaanites/Israelites than to later Levantine samples.

Johnny ola
06-24-2020, 09:32 PM
Yes, they do, but worth noting that Samaritans are the only modern Levantine group that scores closer to Bronze Age Canaanites and Iron Age I-IIA Canaanites/Israelites than to later Levantine samples.

Ofc.When i am playing with modern and ancient samples on G25 Samaritans coming first always(or at least the majority).I have to respect them for being isolated for so many ages.As i know Druze people are against war,millitary and stuff like that.Are Samaritans a similar situation or they gonna fight for Israel?Does Jews consider them as their own people?

Michalis Moriopoulos
06-24-2020, 09:40 PM
I believe that when we'll find Jews from the closer period to the Roman exile, they'll already plot similar in some ways to either Syrian Jews/Romaniotes, or Aegean (or even Anatolian from ancient Asian Hellenes)-shifted Levantines.

Interestingly enough, isn't this basically what Nusayri/Alawites are genetically?

Seabass
06-25-2020, 12:54 AM
I think Tunisian Jews are a decent contender to Romaniotes based off this thread question.


Ofc.When i am playing with modern and ancient samples on G25 Samaritans coming first always(or at least the majority).I have to respect them for being isolated for so many ages.As i know Druze people are against war,millitary and stuff like that.Are Samaritans a similar situation or they gonna fight for Israel?Does Jews consider them as their own people?

The Druze, several have also served in the IDF and still do today. They're interesting people. I can't speak for them, but one guy I met in my country who's parents are Israeli Druze had pretty neutral feelings towards Israel, more good than anything and had a good impression of Jews and other Arabs.

JerryS.
06-25-2020, 01:00 AM
I occasionally get Italian_Jew as part of my autosomal readings. does anybody know where this population sample is from regionally speaking? are they Sephardic or Ashkenazi... from north Africa or the middle east....? Thanks.

Johnny ola
06-25-2020, 01:06 AM
I think Tunisian Jews are a decent contender to Romaniotes based off this thread question.



The Druze, several have also served in the IDF and still do today. They're interesting people. I can't speak for them, but one guy I met in my country who's parents are Israeli Druze had pretty neutral feelings towards Israel, more good than anything and had a good impression of Jews and other Arabs.

So,Samaritans serve in IDF?There are Samaritans in Mossad xDDD..:)

Seabass
06-25-2020, 01:20 AM
So,Samaritans serve in IDF?There are Samaritans in Mossad xDDD..:)

Haha would highly doubt all that many do, there are so few left you might as well treat them like a protected flora specie and keep them out of harms way. Also I swear I read somewhere half the samaritans live in Palestinian territories maybe

Seabass
06-25-2020, 01:28 AM
I occasionally get Italian_Jew as part of my autosomal readings. does anybody know where this population sample is from regionally speaking? are they Sephardic or Ashkenazi... from north Africa or the middle east....? Thanks.

I think either the academic paper they are from fails to specify what Jewish group they belong to, or classes them as sephardic. For a while I think some here saw them as Italqim. I think they are from Rome. My assumption which could be wrong is that they are Sephardic, but likely have Italqi origins too. I suspect this because a) they are slightly closer genetically to Romaniotes than Eastern Sephardim are and b) they show less Berber admixture than Eastern Sephardic Jews. I have a hunch today's Italqi, Sephardic and Romaniotes are all mixed with each other to some degree. Perhaps Romaniotes to a much lesser extent but still

Johnny ola
06-25-2020, 01:29 AM
Haha would highly doubt all that many do, there are so few left you might as well treat them like a protected flora specie and keep them out of harms way. Also I swear I read somewhere half the samaritans live in Palestinian territories maybe

Oh okay.

NarLFC
06-25-2020, 03:12 AM
The Samaritans show the highest genetic affinity to the Caananites followed by the Levantine Christians. No modern day Jewish group is closer to the original Jews than the aformentioned group. Even West Asian Jews have picked up excess non-Levantine admixture over time.

jkotl0327
06-25-2020, 04:17 AM
I think that the Eurogenes K13 resulst of the I2201 Abel Beth Maacah ancient DNA sample, which seems to be of probable Israelite origin, can help settle this debate.

Eurogenes K13

40.36% East_Med
22.16% West_Asian
17.68% West_Med
16.78% Red_Sea
1.96% Northeast_African
0.61% Oceanian
0.45% East_Asian

Oracle:

Mixed Mode:
1 89.45% Samaritan + 10.55% Georgian @ 5.763
2 90.23% Samaritan + 9.77% Ossetian @ 5.811
3 89.45% Samaritan + 10.55% Georgian_imereti @ 5.826
4 89.45% Samaritan + 10.55% Abhkasian @ 5.838
5 91.02% Samaritan + 8.98% North_Ossetian @ 5.964
6 87.11% Samaritan + 12.89% Turk_Meskhetian @ 5.986
7 90.23% Samaritan + 9.77% Balkar @ 5.991
8 90.23% Samaritan + 9.77% Kabardin @ 5.991
9 54.30% Samaritan + 45.70% Syrian @ 6.015
10 90.23% Samaritan + 9.77% Adygei @ 6.030

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% Samaritan @ 7.449
2 100% Syrian @ 7.956
3 100% Lebanese_Christian @ 8.857
4 100% Lebanese_Muslim @ 9.012
5 100% Jordanian @ 10.187
6 100% Nusayri @ 10.595
7 100% Palestinian @ 10.853
8 100% Greek_Cypriot @ 11.276
9 100% Cyprian @ 11.276
10 100% Turk_Cypriot @ 12.482

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% Samaritan + 50% Syrian @ 6.029
2 50% Syrian + 50% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.496
3 50% Samaritan + 50% Lebanese_Muslim @ 6.880
4 50% Samaritan + 50% Nusayri @ 7.376
5 50% Greek_Cypriot + 50% Bedouin @ 7.410
6 50% Cyprian + 50% Bedouin @ 7.410
7 50% Samaritan + 50% Samaritan @ 7.449
8 50% Lebanese_Christian + 50% Bedouin @ 7.451
9 50% Lebanese_Christian + 50% Lebanese_Muslim @ 7.668
10 50% Samaritan + 50% Jordanian @ 7.703

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% Samaritan + 33% Samaritan + 33% Syrian @ 6.132
2 33% Samaritan + 33% Syrian + 33% Syrian @ 6.341
3 33% Samaritan + 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.414
4 33% Syrian + 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.546
5 33% Lebanese_Christian + 33% Lebanese_Muslim + 33% Bedouin @ 6.607
6 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Christian + 33% Bedouin @ 6.704
7 33% Samaritan + 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Muslim @ 6.706
8 33% Samaritan + 33% Samaritan + 33% Lebanese_Muslim @ 6.736
9 33% Samaritan + 33% Samaritan + 33% Assyrian @ 6.869
10 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Christian + 33% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.921

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Syrian @ 6.029
2 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian @ 6.337
3 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Georgian_Jewish @ 6.371
4 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Lebanese_Muslim @ 6.376
5 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Kurdish_Jewish @ 6.458
6 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Assyrian @ 6.464
7 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Bedouin @ 6.467
8 25% Syrian + 25% Syrian + 25% Lebanese_Christian + 25% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.496
9 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.532
10 25% Lebanese_Christian + 25% Lebanese_Christian + 25% Lebanese_Muslim + 25% Bedouin @ 6.533


nMonte:

Distance: 5.66

60.60% Samaritan
15.60% Laz
13.40% Bedouin
08.20% Saudi
02.00% Sardinian
00.20% Georgian_imereti

PCA:

38147

Erikl86
06-25-2020, 07:53 AM
Would you say Romaniotes plot closer than Libyan or Tunisian Jews?

I'd say that Tunisian Jews (that is - Tuansa, rather than the Sephardi Gornim or Grana) also plot pretty close - perhaps on par with Romaniote Jews, but considering their extensive Berber admixture, I think the reason they seem to plot close to Levantines is that this extensive South shifting admixture draws them close to Levantine groups, not necessarily because they are more Levantine admixed. And the best proof for this model is the fact that while they do get closest matches with Levantines, the distances are still very big.

Erikl86
06-25-2020, 08:00 AM
I think that the Eurogenes K13 resulst of the I2201 Abel Beth Maacah ancient DNA sample, which seems to be of probable Israelite origin, can help settle this debate.

Eurogenes K13

40.36% East_Med
22.16% West_Asian
17.68% West_Med
16.78% Red_Sea
1.96% Northeast_African
0.61% Oceanian
0.45% East_Asian

Oracle:

Mixed Mode:
1 89.45% Samaritan + 10.55% Georgian @ 5.763
2 90.23% Samaritan + 9.77% Ossetian @ 5.811
3 89.45% Samaritan + 10.55% Georgian_imereti @ 5.826
4 89.45% Samaritan + 10.55% Abhkasian @ 5.838
5 91.02% Samaritan + 8.98% North_Ossetian @ 5.964
6 87.11% Samaritan + 12.89% Turk_Meskhetian @ 5.986
7 90.23% Samaritan + 9.77% Balkar @ 5.991
8 90.23% Samaritan + 9.77% Kabardin @ 5.991
9 54.30% Samaritan + 45.70% Syrian @ 6.015
10 90.23% Samaritan + 9.77% Adygei @ 6.030

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% Samaritan @ 7.449
2 100% Syrian @ 7.956
3 100% Lebanese_Christian @ 8.857
4 100% Lebanese_Muslim @ 9.012
5 100% Jordanian @ 10.187
6 100% Nusayri @ 10.595
7 100% Palestinian @ 10.853
8 100% Greek_Cypriot @ 11.276
9 100% Cyprian @ 11.276
10 100% Turk_Cypriot @ 12.482

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% Samaritan + 50% Syrian @ 6.029
2 50% Syrian + 50% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.496
3 50% Samaritan + 50% Lebanese_Muslim @ 6.880
4 50% Samaritan + 50% Nusayri @ 7.376
5 50% Greek_Cypriot + 50% Bedouin @ 7.410
6 50% Cyprian + 50% Bedouin @ 7.410
7 50% Samaritan + 50% Samaritan @ 7.449
8 50% Lebanese_Christian + 50% Bedouin @ 7.451
9 50% Lebanese_Christian + 50% Lebanese_Muslim @ 7.668
10 50% Samaritan + 50% Jordanian @ 7.703

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% Samaritan + 33% Samaritan + 33% Syrian @ 6.132
2 33% Samaritan + 33% Syrian + 33% Syrian @ 6.341
3 33% Samaritan + 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.414
4 33% Syrian + 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.546
5 33% Lebanese_Christian + 33% Lebanese_Muslim + 33% Bedouin @ 6.607
6 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Christian + 33% Bedouin @ 6.704
7 33% Samaritan + 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Muslim @ 6.706
8 33% Samaritan + 33% Samaritan + 33% Lebanese_Muslim @ 6.736
9 33% Samaritan + 33% Samaritan + 33% Assyrian @ 6.869
10 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Christian + 33% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.921

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Syrian @ 6.029
2 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian @ 6.337
3 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Georgian_Jewish @ 6.371
4 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Lebanese_Muslim @ 6.376
5 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Kurdish_Jewish @ 6.458
6 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Assyrian @ 6.464
7 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Bedouin @ 6.467
8 25% Syrian + 25% Syrian + 25% Lebanese_Christian + 25% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.496
9 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.532
10 25% Lebanese_Christian + 25% Lebanese_Christian + 25% Lebanese_Muslim + 25% Bedouin @ 6.533


nMonte:

Distance: 5.66

60.60% Samaritan
15.60% Laz
13.40% Bedouin
08.20% Saudi
02.00% Sardinian
00.20% Georgian_imereti

PCA:

38147

The reason you need additional Caucasian component with Samaritans to model IA Levantines, is because Samaritans seem to have an additional Natufian-like admixture even compare to IA Levantines, which is why they seem to plot with Middle Bronze Age Levantines, rather than actually being a genetically "fossilized" Levantine population which remained the same from that period.

My best guess is that Sargon II, the Assyrian king (emperor?) who defeated the Kingdom of Israel, which the Samaritans claim to descend from, actually knew what he was talking about when he said, as recorded in his chronicles, that:

the Samarians who had agreed with a hostile king ...I fought with them and decisively defeated them...carried off as spoil. 50 chariots for my royal force...the rest of them I settled in the midst of Assyria. ...The Tamudi, Ibadidi, Marsimani and Hayappa, who live in distant Arabia, in the desert, who knew neither overseer nor commander, who never brought tribute to any king--with the help of Ashshur my lord, I defeated them. I deported the rest of them. I settled them in Samaria/Samerina.


— Sargon II Inscriptions, COS 2.118A, p. 293

So rather than Samaritans descending from a mixture of Israelites and Kutim (from Kuta, Mesopotamia) as our Jewish tradition claims, they seem to have been mixed with Arabian people settled by the Assyrians. As we know very well to this day Arabs have high Natufian-like admixture.

jkotl0327
06-25-2020, 05:54 PM
The reason you need additional Caucasian component with Samaritans to model IA Levantines, is because Samaritans seem to have an additional Natufian-like admixture even compare to IA Levantines, which is why they seem to plot with Middle Bronze Age Levantines, rather than actually being a genetically "fossilized" Levantine population which remained the same from that period.

My best guess is that Sargon II, the Assyrian king (emperor?) who defeated the Kingdom of Israel, which the Samaritans claim to descend from, actually knew what he was talking about when he said, as recorded in his chronicles, that:

the Samarians who had agreed with a hostile king ...I fought with them and decisively defeated them...carried off as spoil. 50 chariots for my royal force...the rest of them I settled in the midst of Assyria. ...The Tamudi, Ibadidi, Marsimani and Hayappa, who live in distant Arabia, in the desert, who knew neither overseer nor commander, who never brought tribute to any king--with the help of Ashshur my lord, I defeated them. I deported the rest of them. I settled them in Samaria/Samerina.


— Sargon II Inscriptions, COS 2.118A, p. 293

So rather than Samaritans descending from a mixture of Israelites and Kutim (from Kuta, Mesopotamia) as our Jewish tradition claims, they seem to have been mixed with Arabian people settled by the Assyrians. As we know very well to this day Arabs have high Natufian-like admixture.

In my opinion, that would exclude them from being a very good proxy for Ancient Hebrew.

jkotl0327
06-25-2020, 06:04 PM
The reason you need additional Caucasian component with Samaritans to model IA Levantines, is because Samaritans seem to have an additional Natufian-like admixture even compare to IA Levantines, which is why they seem to plot with Middle Bronze Age Levantines, rather than actually being a genetically "fossilized" Levantine population which remained the same from that period.

My best guess is that Sargon II, the Assyrian king (emperor?) who defeated the Kingdom of Israel, which the Samaritans claim to descend from, actually knew what he was talking about when he said, as recorded in his chronicles, that:

the Samarians who had agreed with a hostile king ...I fought with them and decisively defeated them...carried off as spoil. 50 chariots for my royal force...the rest of them I settled in the midst of Assyria. ...The Tamudi, Ibadidi, Marsimani and Hayappa, who live in distant Arabia, in the desert, who knew neither overseer nor commander, who never brought tribute to any king--with the help of Ashshur my lord, I defeated them. I deported the rest of them. I settled them in Samaria/Samerina.


— Sargon II Inscriptions, COS 2.118A, p. 293

So rather than Samaritans descending from a mixture of Israelites and Kutim (from Kuta, Mesopotamia) as our Jewish tradition claims, they seem to have been mixed with Arabian people settled by the Assyrians. As we know very well to this day Arabs have high Natufian-like admixture.

“The inhabitants of Samaria/Samerina, who agreed [and plotted] with a king [hostile to] me, not to do service and not to bring tribute [to Ashshur] and who did battle, I fought against them with the power of the great gods, my lords. I counted as spoil 27,280 people, together with their chariots, and carved gods, in which they trusted. I formed a unit with 200 of [their] chariots for my royal force. I settled the rest of them in the midst of Assyria. I repopulated Samaria/Samerina more than before. I brought into it people from countries conquered by my hands. I appointed my eunuch as governor over them. And I counted them as Assyrians.”
- Sargon II

He says that he repopulated Samaria from “conquered countries.” This probably included Mesopotamians like the Cuthim, but as you mentioned from a genetic standpoint, probably involved a large number of southern MENA groups. If we are trusting Sargon, he says that he repopulated Samaria “more than before,” which would imply that the modern-day Samaritans have less Israelite admixture than other foreign MENA admixture. This would make them a bad proxy for Ancient Hebrew.

Erikl86
06-25-2020, 06:21 PM
In my opinion, that would exclude them from being a very good proxy for Ancient Hebrew.

That depends on just how much of such Arabian ancestry did they receive. I don't think it was a lot. In most models I run I require no more than 8% extra Natufian for IAIII Levantines in order to model Samaritans with good enough distances (which is hard in any case, since they were an endogenous people for millennia just like us Jews, and as a result of the recent severe bottleneck they've experienced, dropping to around 150 in the later 19th century, I'm sure a genetic shift have occurred, ie a Samaritan today probably doesn't plot exactly the same as a Samaritan 500 years ago).

In any case, I think the fact that they still plot so close to ancient Levantines makes them a pretty good proxy for ancient Israelites, albeit not perfect of course. What is important that people will open their minds and realize the chance of them being this rare "genetic living fossil" if you will, of Bronze Age Levantines, is almost likely to not be the case at all.

Dewsloth
06-25-2020, 07:45 PM
Yes, they do, but worth noting that Samaritans are the only modern Levantine group that scores closer to Bronze Age Canaanites and Iron Age I-IIA Canaanites/Israelites than to later Levantine samples.

Seems to check out for IAII, not sure about BA:

Distance to: DewslothMom_scaled
0.02564413 Levant_LBN_MA
0.02599229 Levant_LBN_Roman
0.02749937 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
0.02909796 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.03124718 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
0.03158394 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.03358374 TUR_Arslantepe_LC
0.03586001 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
0.03707480 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.03769609 Levant_Abel_IA
0.03909758 TUR_Ovaoren_EBA
0.04077012 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.04122607 Levant_Beirut_Hellenistic
0.04125967 IND_Roopkund_B_o
0.04188566 Levant_LBN_MA_o3
0.04350744 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.04381826 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.04649365 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
0.04686865 Levant_Baqah_BA
0.04748353 ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.04816249 Levant_Beirut_IAII
0.04825084 Levant_Hazor_MLBA
0.04885205 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
0.05042246 Levant_Shadud_MLBA
0.05064728 TUR_Camlibel_Tarlasi_LC

I took out Levant_MA to see what the older results would look like:
Target: DewslothMom_scaled
Distance: 0.6088% / 0.00608829
21.0 Levant_PPNC
11.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
11.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
9.2 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
9.0 TKM_Sumbar_LBA
5.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
5.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
4.0 Levant_Abel_IA
3.8 TKM_Gonur3_BA
3.6 RUS_Kubano-Tersk
2.8 MKD_N
2.4 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
2.2 Levant_Megiddo_IBA
2.0 BGR_IA
2.0 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
1.6 Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
1.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
0.6 LAO_LN_BA
0.4 RUS_Alan_MA
0.2 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
0.2 MWI_Fingira_6100BP

^^No specific Natufian

jkotl0327
06-25-2020, 08:26 PM
Also, here is the (in my opinion somewhat unreliable) Eurogenes K15 plot. The 3 points are Abel_Beth_Maacah_Hebrew_Proxy, me, and Ashkenazi_Non-Levant_Component_Combined (I think you can guess which is which). 38156

Cascio
06-25-2020, 08:50 PM
Also, here is the (in my opinion somewhat unreliable) Eurogenes K15 plot. The 3 points are Abel_Beth_Maacah_Hebrew_Proxy, me, and Ashkenazi_Non-Levant_Component_Combined (I think you can guess which is which). 38156

Please indulge me.
Which is which?

Presumably the Ashkenazi Non-Levant Component lies between Cataluna and Serbia but rather closer to Cataluna.

jkotl0327
06-25-2020, 09:42 PM
Please indulge me.
Which is which?

Presumably the Ashkenazi Non-Levant Component lies between Cataluna and Serbia but rather closer to Cataluna.

Ok, I will indulge you. The one near N. Italian is the Ashkenazi non-levant. The one near Sephardic is me (even though I'm Ashkenazi I seem to be a little more MENA-shifted than average). The one kind of near Samaritan is Abel Beth Maacah. Eurogenes K15 models him as 50% Samaritan and 50% Syrian.

Helves
06-25-2020, 11:41 PM
The reason you need additional Caucasian component with Samaritans to model IA Levantines, is because Samaritans seem to have an additional Natufian-like admixture even compare to IA Levantines, which is why they seem to plot with Middle Bronze Age Levantines, rather than actually being a genetically "fossilized" Levantine population which remained the same from that period.

My best guess is that Sargon II, the Assyrian king (emperor?) who defeated the Kingdom of Israel, which the Samaritans claim to descend from, actually knew what he was talking about when he said, as recorded in his chronicles, that:

the Samarians who had agreed with a hostile king ...I fought with them and decisively defeated them...carried off as spoil. 50 chariots for my royal force...the rest of them I settled in the midst of Assyria. ...The Tamudi, Ibadidi, Marsimani and Hayappa, who live in distant Arabia, in the desert, who knew neither overseer nor commander, who never brought tribute to any king--with the help of Ashshur my lord, I defeated them. I deported the rest of them. I settled them in Samaria/Samerina.


— Sargon II Inscriptions, COS 2.118A, p. 293

So rather than Samaritans descending from a mixture of Israelites and Kutim (from Kuta, Mesopotamia) as our Jewish tradition claims, they seem to have been mixed with Arabian people settled by the Assyrians. As we know very well to this day Arabs have high Natufian-like admixture.
This doesn’t seem to be the case

Target: Samaritan
Distance: 3.9308% / 0.03930802
39.6 Early_European_Farmer
30.8 Natufian
21.4 Iran_Neolithic
8.2 GEO_CHG

Target: Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
Distance: 3.8291% / 0.03829105
36.6 Early_European_Farmer
33.6 Natufian
21.8 Iran_Neolithic
8.0 GEO_CHG

Target: Levant_Beirut_IAII
Distance: 4.6293% / 0.04629329
42.2 Early_European_Farmer
30.2 Natufian
22.8 Iran_Neolithic
4.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Levant_Megiddo_IA
Distance: 5.0331% / 0.05033149
38.2 Early_European_Farmer
31.0 Natufian
24.0 Iran_Neolithic
6.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Levant_Abel_IA
Distance: 4.2461% / 0.04246051
39.4 Early_European_Farmer
30.0 Natufian
20.0 Iran_Neolithic
10.6 GEO_CHG

jkotl0327
06-26-2020, 12:01 AM
This doesn’t seem to be the case

Target: Samaritan
Distance: 3.9308% / 0.03930802
39.6 Early_European_Farmer
30.8 Natufian
21.4 Iran_Neolithic
8.2 GEO_CHG

Target: Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
Distance: 3.8291% / 0.03829105
36.6 Early_European_Farmer
33.6 Natufian
21.8 Iran_Neolithic
8.0 GEO_CHG

Target: Levant_Beirut_IAII
Distance: 4.6293% / 0.04629329
42.2 Early_European_Farmer
30.2 Natufian
22.8 Iran_Neolithic
4.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Levant_Megiddo_IA
Distance: 5.0331% / 0.05033149
38.2 Early_European_Farmer
31.0 Natufian
24.0 Iran_Neolithic
6.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Levant_Abel_IA
Distance: 4.2461% / 0.04246051
39.4 Early_European_Farmer
30.0 Natufian
20.0 Iran_Neolithic
10.6 GEO_CHG

What calculator is this?

Johnny ola
06-26-2020, 12:08 AM
This doesn’t seem to be the case

Target: Samaritan
Distance: 3.9308% / 0.03930802
39.6 Early_European_Farmer
30.8 Natufian
21.4 Iran_Neolithic
8.2 GEO_CHG

Target: Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
Distance: 3.8291% / 0.03829105
36.6 Early_European_Farmer
33.6 Natufian
21.8 Iran_Neolithic
8.0 GEO_CHG

Target: Levant_Beirut_IAII
Distance: 4.6293% / 0.04629329
42.2 Early_European_Farmer
30.2 Natufian
22.8 Iran_Neolithic
4.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Levant_Megiddo_IA
Distance: 5.0331% / 0.05033149
38.2 Early_European_Farmer
31.0 Natufian
24.0 Iran_Neolithic
6.8 GEO_CHG

Target: Levant_Abel_IA
Distance: 4.2461% / 0.04246051
39.4 Early_European_Farmer
30.0 Natufian
20.0 Iran_Neolithic
10.6 GEO_CHG

Limited CHG,invisible steppe admixture..so i don't see a hurrian-hittite influence like some other user's have mention among Jews and Samaritans.If someone from the Levant have an anatolian/caucasian influence then we have to do with Lebanese people more specific.The EBLA EBA samples on the other hand have a decent CHG admixture witch is possible a hurrian element since amorites have been mixed with them.In general Northern Levant is more influenced from hurrians and hittites while the southern levant seems to be influenced by sea people/philistines.

Greekscholar
06-26-2020, 12:34 AM
Good question, which group of Early Farmers is the source reference? Barcin?

Johnny ola
06-26-2020, 12:47 AM
Good question, which group of Early Farmers is the source reference? Barcin?

Good question.Also the Levant Natufian samples on G25 are good or we should better use the PPNB samples?I am wondering if the Levant Natufian samples on G2 are accurate or they got some error..

lifeisdandy
06-26-2020, 01:10 AM
Guys as a copt...I feel we are also quite close to ancient canaanites but with some east African admixture....
38158
38159

jkotl0327
06-26-2020, 01:35 AM
Speaking of Ancient ethnically MENA samples, the Roman-era samples near the city of Rome in the article "Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean" are pretty interesting. Many of the Roman samples come out as very MENA-shifted, far closer to modern-day MENA populations than even Sicilians or Maltese, indicating that they were probably of foreign origin, like many Romans. Below is the Eurogenes K15 plot of the R38, R67, and R68 samples, which came up as MyTrueAncestry matches for me (I know that MTA is nonsense, it's just how I learned about these samples' existence). I have 23andme files for each and I want to know if it is possible to make good inferences about their ethnicities based on the plot or some other genetic tool I can do with the 23andMe file.

Here is the plot:
38160

Here is some background from the article's supplement about each sample:

R38: "Isola Sacra necropolis
Date Range: 1 CE - 400 CE
Individuals: R42, R39, R37, R38, R40, R41, R43, R44, R45
The Imperial port town of Portus Romae is located approximately 23 km southwest of Rome, and was a
key trading center for the city during the Roman Empire. Portus was the port of Rome, and the uninhibited
flow of goods into the metropolis, first and foremost grain, but also other vital foodstuffs, was the highest
priority of the imperial government. The prosperity of Portus was tied up with that of the imperial city. The
inhabitants of Portus were buried in the necropolis of Isola Sacra, which extends approximately 1.5 km
along the road between Ostia and Portus Romae, and was in use from the 2nd to the late 3rd-early 4th
centuries CE. People buried in the Isola Sacra were engaged in commerce and business, frequently
themselves descended from slaves. The population, those sections of it that are 'visible', was, or appears,
relatively egalitarian, in comparison with other Italian towns. There is a missing 'tranche' in the social
hierarchy, at the top, where one would expect to locate an aristocracy of office and social prestige (33).
Over 2000 individuals have been recovered to-date from the necropolis and are currently stored at the
Museo delle Civiltà in Rome. The bioarchaeology of the odontoskeletal collection of Isola Sacra was
intensely investigated and a number of contributions has been published, exploring demography (139, 140),
diet (34, 95, 141, 142), occupational markers (143), stress of the infant segment (144–146), and
paleopathology (19, 147–149)."

R67 & R68: "ANAS (Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada)
Date range: 100 - 300 CE
Individuals: R66, R67, R68, R69, R70, R71, R72, R73
The ANAS necropolis is situated in a southern suburb of Rome and was uncovered during road building
(by the Azienda Nazionale Autonoma delle Strada, ANAS) in the area of the present day Acilia (Rome).
The necropolis consists of 8 individuals, mostly adults, and is dated to the II-III century CE. The graveyard
was associated with a small rural center of farmers and possibly with a nearby villa. Paleodietary analysis
of the inhumated has been previously studied (95). The human osteological material is currently stored at
the Museo delle Civiltà in Rome."

Dewsloth
06-26-2020, 01:41 AM
Distance to: DewslothMom_scaled
0.02564413 Levant_LBN_MA
0.02599229 Levant_LBN_Roman
0.02749937 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
0.02909796 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.03124718 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
0.03158394 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.03358374 TUR_Arslantepe_LC
0.03586001 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
0.03707480 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.03769609 Levant_Abel_IA


^^ My maternal grandfather's Y-line MDKA is from 10 miles NE of Tel Abel Beth Maacah :lol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abel-beth-maachah

Helves
06-26-2020, 10:08 AM
Good question, which group of Early Farmers is the source reference? Barcin?

Yes Barcin.

akash
06-28-2020, 10:27 PM
Hopefully Saudi Arabia will allow dna testing of Jewish tribes who converted to Islam

jkotl0327
06-29-2020, 04:18 AM
Hopefully Saudi Arabia will allow dna testing of Jewish tribes who converted to Islam

Have those tribes remained at least mostly endogamous over the millennia?

Riverman
06-29-2020, 09:38 AM
Hopefully Saudi Arabia will allow dna testing of Jewish tribes who converted to Islam

There are so many Saudis tested, shouldn't there be some results out there already?

akash
06-29-2020, 03:08 PM
There are so many Saudis tested, shouldn't there be some results out there already?

Mostly likely not, The Original Jewish tribes in Saudi Mostly live in the North West in smaller cities, not far from the supposed Real Mount Sinai.

akash
06-29-2020, 03:11 PM
Have those tribes remained at least mostly endogamous over the millennia?

From What I a know about Saudi Culture (having lived there 15 years) Saudis are very strict in marrying outside tribes. Saudis are a very tribal society who dont exactly mix very easily unless some financial gain is there. The Tribes of the Hejaz are the most strictest in the whole country, even many Saudis from Najd (Riyadh Capital area) or other bigger cities have a hard time interacting with them, let alone marrying them.

jkotl0327
06-29-2020, 08:49 PM
From What I a know about Saudi Culture (having lived there 15 years) Saudis are very strict in marrying outside tribes. Saudis are a very tribal society who dont exactly mix very easily unless some financial gain is there. The Tribes of the Hejaz are the most strictest in the whole country, even many Saudis from Najd (Riyadh Capital area) or other bigger cities have a hard time interacting with them, let alone marrying them.

Yes, it would certainly be interesting to test the tribes who consider themselves to been ethnically Jewish and see if there is any noticeable difference from the Arabs. The Yemeni Jews are pretty mixed though and I would imagine that tribes that converted to Islam would be at least as mixed as them.

Tomasso29
06-30-2020, 07:51 PM
I think the Samaritans are probably your closest bet, how do they compare to the other populations around them genetically?

jkotl0327
06-30-2020, 08:05 PM
I think the Samaritans are probably your closest bet, how do they compare to the other populations around them genetically?

The Samaritans are a mix of the original Israelites plus a foreign population of Arabians + Kutim Assyrians, with more Arabian than Kutim admixture. Samaritan can be modeled as about 90% Abel Beth Maacah Ancient Israelite and 10% Arabian, but that is only because there were more Arabians than Kutim brought into Samaria in my opinion. You are probably right about them being the closest, but I would wait for more Israelite samples.

eolien
07-04-2020, 01:43 PM
I think this overfitting table can show some basic patterns for Levantine/Eastern Jews:

38256

eolien
07-04-2020, 01:54 PM
Whereas the Tunisian and Libyan Jews need something else for good fit , can one guess which population will reduce the fitness to around 2.


38257

Dewsloth
07-09-2020, 03:48 PM
Distance to: DewslothMom_scaled
0.02564413 Levant_LBN_MA
0.02599229 Levant_LBN_Roman
0.02749937 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
0.02909796 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.03124718 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
0.03158394 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.03358374 TUR_Arslantepe_LC
0.03586001 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
0.03707480 Levant_Ashkelon_LBA
0.03769609 Levant_Abel_IA


^^ My maternal grandfather's Y-line MDKA is from 10 miles NE of Tel Abel Beth Maacah :lol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abel-beth-maachah

^^ And his only (Y67 STR) match at FTDNA has a MDKA from Ramallah.
So that's a probable shared ancestor in the last ~16 generations.

Themixedpenguin
07-21-2020, 02:42 AM
I think that can be said comfortably that the closest modern groups to Roman Era Jews are Druze, Samaritans, Lebanese Christians, Palestinian/Israeli Arab Christians.
The closest Jews to Roman Era Jews are Iraqi Jews, Iranian Jews, Georgian Jews and Syrian Jews, but I don't think any Jewish group come closer to Roman Jews that the non Jewish groups already mentioned.
Karaite Jews are considerably close to the Roman Era examples that plot with Levantines but I haven't seen any studies about them, maybe someone could post or add them.
Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1547
0.02958786 Lebanese_Christian
0.03091293 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.03421386 Samaritan
0.03523272 Lebanese_Druze
0.03709840 Druze
0.03892316 Karaite_Egypt
0.04007189 Cypriot
0.04056934 Lebanese_Muslim
0.04372457 Syrian_Jew
0.04760754 Iraqi_Jew
If any MDLP K16 and HarappaWorld are the best calculators for West Asians but I prefer to use MDLP because It has Israeli Arab Christians and also in HarappaWorld Samaritans are not "very close" to any group.
Palestinian Christians are like >80% Levantine with many being more than 90%> on 23andme so I suppose they are closest.

Anyways Israeli Arab Christians appear to be very Northern shifted, they are close to Druze, Cypriot and even Turks. They are appear to be more Northern Shifted than any Lebanese Christian or Muslims. I don't know why, maybe because Philistines? But I don't know if Christians from Palestine are that Northern Shifted, maybe this could be explain for the fact that Palestinian Christians have received Samaritan blood. But also Philistines colonized the Coast of Southern Palestine while Christian Israelis are more Galilean than other. And maybe Galileans were more Northern Shifted because they had more contact with non Jews. Another posibility is that Christian Israelis has Northern Ancestry, maybe Syrian? Because they still are very Levantine.
Like some Users have said Jews (Roman Era) were probably more Northern Shifted, so maybe Israeli Arab Christians are the closest.





Interestingly enough, isn't this basically what Nusayri/Alawites are genetically?

I don't think so, Alawites can be modeled as >60% Samaritan/Lebanese christian + <40% North Caucasian which would put them more Caucasian shifted than Aegean.

Themixedpenguin
07-21-2020, 03:23 AM
I think that the Eurogenes K13 resulst of the I2201 Abel Beth Maacah ancient DNA sample, which seems to be of probable Israelite origin, can help settle this debate.

Eurogenes K13

40.36% East_Med
22.16% West_Asian
17.68% West_Med
16.78% Red_Sea
1.96% Northeast_African
0.61% Oceanian
0.45% East_Asian

Oracle:

Mixed Mode:
1 89.45% Samaritan + 10.55% Georgian @ 5.763
2 90.23% Samaritan + 9.77% Ossetian @ 5.811
3 89.45% Samaritan + 10.55% Georgian_imereti @ 5.826
4 89.45% Samaritan + 10.55% Abhkasian @ 5.838
5 91.02% Samaritan + 8.98% North_Ossetian @ 5.964
6 87.11% Samaritan + 12.89% Turk_Meskhetian @ 5.986
7 90.23% Samaritan + 9.77% Balkar @ 5.991
8 90.23% Samaritan + 9.77% Kabardin @ 5.991
9 54.30% Samaritan + 45.70% Syrian @ 6.015
10 90.23% Samaritan + 9.77% Adygei @ 6.030

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% Samaritan @ 7.449
2 100% Syrian @ 7.956
3 100% Lebanese_Christian @ 8.857
4 100% Lebanese_Muslim @ 9.012
5 100% Jordanian @ 10.187
6 100% Nusayri @ 10.595
7 100% Palestinian @ 10.853
8 100% Greek_Cypriot @ 11.276
9 100% Cyprian @ 11.276
10 100% Turk_Cypriot @ 12.482

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% Samaritan + 50% Syrian @ 6.029
2 50% Syrian + 50% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.496
3 50% Samaritan + 50% Lebanese_Muslim @ 6.880
4 50% Samaritan + 50% Nusayri @ 7.376
5 50% Greek_Cypriot + 50% Bedouin @ 7.410
6 50% Cyprian + 50% Bedouin @ 7.410
7 50% Samaritan + 50% Samaritan @ 7.449
8 50% Lebanese_Christian + 50% Bedouin @ 7.451
9 50% Lebanese_Christian + 50% Lebanese_Muslim @ 7.668
10 50% Samaritan + 50% Jordanian @ 7.703

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% Samaritan + 33% Samaritan + 33% Syrian @ 6.132
2 33% Samaritan + 33% Syrian + 33% Syrian @ 6.341
3 33% Samaritan + 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.414
4 33% Syrian + 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.546
5 33% Lebanese_Christian + 33% Lebanese_Muslim + 33% Bedouin @ 6.607
6 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Christian + 33% Bedouin @ 6.704
7 33% Samaritan + 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Muslim @ 6.706
8 33% Samaritan + 33% Samaritan + 33% Lebanese_Muslim @ 6.736
9 33% Samaritan + 33% Samaritan + 33% Assyrian @ 6.869
10 33% Syrian + 33% Lebanese_Christian + 33% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.921

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Syrian @ 6.029
2 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian @ 6.337
3 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Georgian_Jewish @ 6.371
4 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Lebanese_Muslim @ 6.376
5 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Kurdish_Jewish @ 6.458
6 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Assyrian @ 6.464
7 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Bedouin @ 6.467
8 25% Syrian + 25% Syrian + 25% Lebanese_Christian + 25% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.496
9 25% Samaritan + 25% Samaritan + 25% Syrian + 25% Lebanese_Christian @ 6.532
10 25% Lebanese_Christian + 25% Lebanese_Christian + 25% Lebanese_Muslim + 25% Bedouin @ 6.533


nMonte:

Distance: 5.66

60.60% Samaritan
15.60% Laz
13.40% Bedouin
08.20% Saudi
02.00% Sardinian
00.20% Georgian_imereti

PCA:

38147

Eurogenes is not very reliable for West Asians. Could you post his MDLP K16 and HarappaWorld?

Moldovlah
07-21-2020, 03:29 AM
Libyan.

Themixedpenguin
07-21-2020, 03:29 AM
The reason you need additional Caucasian component with Samaritans to model IA Levantines, is because Samaritans seem to have an additional Natufian-like admixture even compare to IA Levantines, which is why they seem to plot with Middle Bronze Age Levantines, rather than actually being a genetically "fossilized" Levantine population which remained the same from that period.

My best guess is that Sargon II, the Assyrian king (emperor?) who defeated the Kingdom of Israel, which the Samaritans claim to descend from, actually knew what he was talking about when he said, as recorded in his chronicles, that:

the Samarians who had agreed with a hostile king ...I fought with them and decisively defeated them...carried off as spoil. 50 chariots for my royal force...the rest of them I settled in the midst of Assyria. ...The Tamudi, Ibadidi, Marsimani and Hayappa, who live in distant Arabia, in the desert, who knew neither overseer nor commander, who never brought tribute to any king--with the help of Ashshur my lord, I defeated them. I deported the rest of them. I settled them in Samaria/Samerina.


— Sargon II Inscriptions, COS 2.118A, p. 293

So rather than Samaritans descending from a mixture of Israelites and Kutim (from Kuta, Mesopotamia) as our Jewish tradition claims, they seem to have been mixed with Arabian people settled by the Assyrians. As we know very well to this day Arabs have high Natufian-like admixture.

True about Samaritans,they need more North Caucasian ancestry than other groups from the Levant, but even if they were Lebanese Christian they would need some North Caucasian, the likely Levantine samples from the Imperial Rome were slightly more CHG and slightly less Iran Neolithic than Lebanese Romans. Do you know why?

Generalissimo
07-21-2020, 04:06 AM
Eurogenes is not very reliable for West Asians. Could you post his MDLP K16 and HarappaWorld?

Eurogenes is very reliable for West Asians.

Themixedpenguin
07-21-2020, 04:54 AM
Eurogenes is very reliable for West Asians.

Lol no, and I use no very reliable for not use awful. Eurogenes is specially for europeans, and even for some like greeks MDLP K16 is clearly better.

Generalissimo
07-21-2020, 05:27 AM
Lol no, and I use no very reliable for not use awful. Eurogenes is specially for europeans, and even for some like greeks MDLP K16 is clearly better.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Eurogenes isn't designed especially for Europeans. It's very reliable for people from all over the world, including West Asians.

Alexander87
07-21-2020, 06:15 AM
You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Eurogenes isn't designed especially for Europeans. It's very reliable for people from all over the world, including West Asians.

I would say MDLP is quite reliable for Greeks and west Asians. It was way ahead of eurogenes calculators when discerning my dad's, who is Levantine, admixture. But now with the k13 updated I think eurogenes have caught up or at least greatly improved. But the calculator was more eurocentric before.

jkotl0327
07-21-2020, 07:49 AM
Eurogenes is not very reliable for West Asians. Could you post his MDLP K16 and HarappaWorld?

I consider K13 reliable but sure.

HarappaWorld

Components %
S-Indian 1.14
Baloch 7.40
Caucasian 42.55
NE-Euro 0.00
SE-Asian 0.52
Siberian 0.00
NE-Asian 0.83
Papuan 0.00
American 0.00
Beringian 0.00
Mediterranean 15.32
SW-Asian 29.55
San 0.00
E-African 2.67
Pygmy 0.00
W-African 0.00


Oracle Calculator by www.dnagenics.com
v1.5 07/02/2020

Finished reading population data. 505 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------


Mixed Mode:
1 50.39% samaritian + 49.61% jordanian @ 3.260
2 50.39% jordanian + 49.61% samaritian @ 3.261
3 89.45% samaritian + 10.55% algeria @ 3.714
4 90.23% samaritian + 9.77% morocco-n @ 3.763
5 91.02% samaritian + 8.98% tunisia @ 3.797
6 54.30% palestinian2 + 45.70% samaritian @ 3.876
7 50.39% samaritian + 49.61% palestinian2 @ 3.900
8 78.52% samaritian + 21.48% morocco-jew @ 3.967
9 57.42% samaritian + 42.58% lebanese @ 3.971
10 91.02% samaritian + 8.98% saharawi @ 4.018

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% samaritian @ 6.643
2 100% jordanian @ 6.698
3 100% lebanese @ 8.185
4 100% syrian @ 9.130
5 100% lebanese-christian @ 10.668
6 100% palestinian1 @ 10.690
7 100% lebanese-muslim @ 11.203
8 100% lebanese-druze @ 13.003
9 100% iraq-jew @ 14.962
10 100% palestinian2 @ 16.308

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% samaritian + 50% jordanian @ 3.260
2 50% palestinian2 + 50% samaritian @ 3.896
3 50% samaritian + 50% lebanese @ 4.075
4 50% samaritian + 50% syrian @ 4.871
5 50% samaritian + 50% palestinian1 @ 4.991
6 50% palestinian2 + 50% lebanese-christian @ 5.283
7 50% palestinian2 + 50% lebanese @ 5.597
8 50% palestinian2 + 50% palestinian2 @ 6.020
9 50% palestinian2 + 50% jordanian @ 6.123
10 50% jordanian + 50% lebanese-christian @ 6.319

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% palestinian2 + 33% samaritian + 33% lebanese @ 3.417
2 33% palestinian2 + 33% samaritian + 33% jordanian @ 3.771
3 33% samaritian + 33% samaritian + 33% jordanian @ 3.777
4 33% samaritian + 33% jordanian + 33% jordanian @ 3.810
5 33% samaritian + 33% jordanian + 33% lebanese @ 3.898
6 33% palestinian2 + 33% palestinian2 + 33% samaritian @ 4.079
7 33% samaritian + 33% samaritian + 33% lebanese @ 4.138
8 33% palestinian2 + 33% samaritian + 33% syrian @ 4.230
9 33% palestinian2 + 33% samaritian + 33% palestinian1 @ 4.312
10 33% samaritian + 33% samaritian + 33% palestinian1 @ 4.388

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% samaritian + 25% samaritian + 25% jordanian + 25% jordanian @ 3.260
2 25% samaritian + 25% samaritian + 25% jordanian + 25% lebanese @ 3.335
3 25% palestinian2 + 25% palestinian2 + 25% samaritian + 25% cypriot @ 3.574
4 25% samaritian + 25% samaritian + 25% jordanian + 25% morocco-jew @ 3.631
5 25% palestinian2 + 25% palestinian2 + 25% samaritian + 25% lebanese @ 3.676
6 25% samaritian + 25% samaritian + 25% jordanian + 25% sephardic-jew @ 3.761
7 25% samaritian + 25% samaritian + 25% jordanian + 25% palestinian1 @ 3.828
8 25% palestinian2 + 25% palestinian2 + 25% samaritian + 25% lebanese-christian @ 3.859
9 25% samaritian + 25% samaritian + 25% jordanian + 25% syrian @ 3.871
10 25% palestinian2 + 25% palestinian2 + 25% samaritian + 25% samaritian @ 3.896


MDLP K16

Components %
Amerindian 0.00
Ancestor 0.00
ANE 2.58
ANI 0.00
Arctic 0.00
Australian 0.00
Caucasian 50.67
EastAfrican 2.03
Mesolithic 0.00
NearEast 19.40
Neolithic 19.74
NorthAfrican 4.63
Oceanic 0.00
Siberian 0.00
SouthEastAsian 0.95
Subsaharian 0.00


Oracle Calculator by www.dnagenics.com
v1.5 07/02/2020

Finished reading population data. 516 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------


Mixed Mode:
1 70.70% Cypriot_113 + 29.30% Jew_256 @ 5.261
2 76.95% Cypriot_113 + 23.05% Saudi_416 @ 6.391
3 68.36% Samaritan_412 + 31.64% Druze_124 @ 6.541
4 77.73% Samaritan_412 + 22.27% Jew_244 @ 6.691
5 91.02% Cypriot_113 + 8.98% BedouinB_71 @ 6.802
6 50.39% Druze_124 + 49.61% Samaritan_412 @ 6.874
7 71.48% Samaritan_412 + 28.52% Cypriot_113 @ 6.968
8 91.02% Samaritan_412 + 8.98% Turk_482 @ 7.055
9 51.17% Cypriot_113 + 48.83% Palestinian_371 @ 7.132
10 50.39% Palestinian_371 + 49.61% Cypriot_113 @ 7.135

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% Samaritan_412 @ 7.469
3 100% Lebanese_Christian_311 @ 9.291
4 100% Cypriot_113 @ 9.766
5 100% Palestinian_371 @ 9.949
6 100% Druze_124 @ 10.135
7 100% Syrian_458 @ 11.599
8 100% Jordanian_260 @ 11.812
9 100% Lebanese_Muslim_312 @ 11.819
10 100% Lebanese_310 @ 12.645
Oracle Calculator by www.dnagenics.com
v1.5 07/02/2020

Finished reading population data. 516 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------


Mixed Mode:
1 70.70% Cypriot_113 + 29.30% Jew_256 @ 5.261
2 76.95% Cypriot_113 + 23.05% Saudi_416 @ 6.391
3 68.36% Samaritan_412 + 31.64% Druze_124 @ 6.541
4 77.73% Samaritan_412 + 22.27% Jew_244 @ 6.691
5 91.02% Cypriot_113 + 8.98% BedouinB_71 @ 6.802
6 50.39% Druze_124 + 49.61% Samaritan_412 @ 6.874
7 71.48% Samaritan_412 + 28.52% Cypriot_113 @ 6.968
8 91.02% Samaritan_412 + 8.98% Turk_482 @ 7.055
9 51.17% Cypriot_113 + 48.83% Palestinian_371 @ 7.132
10 50.39% Palestinian_371 + 49.61% Cypriot_113 @ 7.135

Least-squares method.

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% Samaritan_412 @ 7.469
2 100% Lebanese_Christian_311 @ 9.291
3 100% Cypriot_113 @ 9.766
4 100% Druze_124 @ 10.135
5 100% Syrian_458 @ 11.599
6 100% Jordanian_260 @ 11.812
7 100% Lebanese_Muslim_312 @ 11.819
8 100% Lebanese_310 @ 12.645
9 100% Arab_Israel_1_14 @ 8.803
10 100% Palestinian_371 @ 9.949

Using 2 populations approximation
1 50% Samaritan_412 + 50% Druze_124 @ 6.860
2 50% Cypriot_113 + 50% Palestinian_371 @ 7.134
3 50% Samaritan_412 + 50% Cypriot_113 @ 7.271
4 50% Samaritan_412 + 50% Samaritan_412 @ 7.469
5 50% Cypriot_113 + 50% Jew_256 @ 7.783
6 50% Samaritan_412 + 50% Jew_244 @ 7.827
7 50% Arab_Israel_1_14 + 50% Druze_124 @ 7.866
8 50% Palestinian_371 + 50% Druze_124 @ 7.930
9 50% Samaritan_412 + 50% Arab_Israel_1_14 @ 7.974
10 50% Samaritan_412 + 50% Lebanese_Christian_311 @ 8.121

Using 3 populations approximation
1 33% Cypriot_113 + 33% Cypriot_113 + 33% Jew_256 @ 5.371
2 33% Samaritan_412 + 33% Samaritan_412 + 33% Druze_124 @ 6.544
3 33% Lebanese_Christian_311 + 33% Cypriot_113 + 33% Jew_256 @ 6.859
4 33% Samaritan_412 + 33% Samaritan_412 + 33% Jew_244 @ 6.879
5 33% Samaritan_412 + 33% Samaritan_412 + 33% Cypriot_113 @ 6.985
6 33% Samaritan_412 + 33% Arab_Israel_1_14 + 33% Druze_124 @ 7.103
7 33% Cypriot_113 + 33% Cypriot_113 + 33% BedouinA_70 @ 7.201
8 33% Cypriot_113 + 33% Cypriot_113 + 33% Saudi_416 @ 7.239
9 33% Cypriot_113 + 33% Palestinian_371 + 33% Druze_124 @ 7.367
10 33% Cypriot_113 + 33% Cypriot_113 + 33% Palestinian_371 @ 7.445

Using 4 populations approximation
1 25% Cypriot_113 + 25% Cypriot_113 + 25% Cypriot_113 + 25% Jew_256 @ 5.406
2 25% Cypriot_113 + 25% Cypriot_113 + 25% Palestinian_371 + 25% Jew_256 @ 6.299
3 25% Cypriot_113 + 25% Cypriot_113 + 25% Cypriot_113 + 25% Saudi_416 @ 6.429
4 25% Samaritan_412 + 25% Samaritan_412 + 25% Samaritan_412 + 25% Druze_124 @ 6.586
5 25% Samaritan_412 + 25% Samaritan_412 + 25% Samaritan_412 + 25% Jew_244 @ 6.701
6 25% Samaritan_412 + 25% Samaritan_412 + 25% Arab_Israel_1_14 + 25% Druze_124 @ 6.947
7 25% Lebanese_Christian_311 + 25% Lebanese_Christian_311 + 25% Cypriot_113 + 25% Jew_256 @ 6.969
8 25% Samaritan_412 + 25% Samaritan_412 + 25% Samaritan_412 + 25% Cypriot_113 @ 6.975
9 25% Cypriot_113 + 25% Cypriot_113 + 25% Palestinian_371 + 25% Palestinian_371 @ 7.134
10 25% Samaritan_412 + 25% Samaritan_412 + 25% Arab_Israel_1_14 + 25% Jew_244 @ 7.184