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View Full Version : The case for E-M123* (without E-M34 coming out of Israel, Specifically)



ACV2
06-26-2020, 06:34 PM
I find little awareness in Forums, Groups, Pages, etc. I have joined, that : Older Y-DNA subclades can reside among younger ones.
There are many examples, but the ones on the matter can be seen with J2a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#Genetics) & J2b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J)and their respective subclades. The millenium or century another subclad comes in, does not mean the older one goes extinct, nor that if they both branch/ mutate further, that they have to be another people all together; although, eventually they will drift.

Further example: Out of the Levant (OL) Asian findings of early E-Z827, E-Z830 (upstream of E-M123) & E-Y31991, E-Pf4428 ( down stream of E-M123*) have been dated as during or after the Assyrian empire and found all around it’s empire. Before those times, Natufians descendants have been dated Inside of the Levant (IL) and down to Ethiopia. Also not until after bronze age are E-M123 descendants found in Europe and all over. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6062619/ alsohttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4231410/#sup1
The above times coincide with when the Assyrians misplaced the Northern Kingdom Israelites.
https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-tablets-reveal-2-700-year-old-forced-relocation-by-assyrian-conquerors-1.7906334?fbclid=IwAR2bKkuGMK3bzIIPe_O8BeCJW_Bx55V 9VU598cGmkc0d4Is_OEoGI1ij28Q

Natufians were an E-M123 dominated Haplogroup, All other people that surrounded them around the Levant (a.k.a. The Scythians, Assyrians, Saka, other Iranians, Lebaneese/ Cannanites, Philistines, etc.) are proven to have been from other Haplotypes (during that era’s archeological findings). Note: In more modern times descendants of E-M123* can be found all over the Levant and around it.

95%+ of E-M123 are also E-M34. But E-M123* are most frequently so far, out of Northern Portugal; although, there are others all around. I have not seen a single sample case where E-M123* is found in Africa or in Saudi Arabia. It seems to be a strictly Levant originated Haplo Type.

It also insinuates that E-M123* may just be a small minority of Israelite descendants, and just mutated SNP’s differently and since the subclad is so small and hard to find, they just get lost among Israelite Diasporas. Note: E-PF2025 ( under E-M123 mutation but no E-M34 either) is just as old as E-M123* and yet unquestioned and predominantly Jewish. S(https://jewishdna.net/index.html

So why group E-M123* with E-M34’s instead of E-M123 descendants (E-Y31991) having it’s own branch like E-PF2025?
How else does one (more reasonably) 1) explain the same archeological path and time frames as the other 2 Israelite Diaspora’s? 2) The same dominating E-M123 haplogroups not found elsewhere? 3) And the same historical clustering in different nations after the Diasporas?

Sure, after the Diasporas they could have joined Phoienecians, Visigoths and or Romans, but the main clusters are found where the other Israelites went.

Farroukh
06-27-2020, 11:24 AM
Also not until after bronze age are E-M123 descendants found in Europe and all over.
E-Y29605 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y29605/) is one of the paleolithic (14 kyo) European downstreams of E-M123 (Alpine survivers?)

P. S. Also try to contact moderator Ruderico, he belongs to the same branch

Velislav
06-27-2020, 01:39 PM
I am also E-Y31991 - good to see other rare folk around. Our line could be either Paleolithic or Neolithic or even Chalcolithic in Europe as seen in Yfull - https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/ - but seems too old to be connected with the Bronze age or later migrations. I am not sure if I understand correctly but you see connection between 31991 and Jewish people? I must say the Jewish people are probably the best studied ethnicity in the world and so far there are none that would be 31991/4428.
You are right about the Natufian connection, however, the Levantine branch of out haplogroup is all Arabic. Also, there are people in Tunis who are pf4428 but I don't know details about them. Worth mentioning 2 Armenians also.
In Europe our line is spread mostly in the West - Portugal is the hot spot, also Spain, Fance, England, Norway, Germany, Austria and Italy. In the East, it is found only in Bulgaria, Romania and Moldova - what Im poised to call a Thracian branch.
If you wish you can upload to Yfull where you will get a branch and time to most recent common ancestor. I am the Bulgarian sample.

Ruderico
06-27-2020, 07:37 PM
I agree with Velislav, there's really nothing to connect our clade with ancient Israel, or even ancient Israelites besides a distant common ancestor, our common clade is just way too old. It would be cool, as we'd have good information about their culture and mentality, but not only is there no evidence to support it, all we have so far makes that extremely unlikely. There were a bunch of ancient South Levant samples from the Bronze Age and all E-M123 were positive M34..maybe our ancestors cremated the remains, maybe they were in the north Levant, or simply already in Europe. In fact, looking at modern individuals positive for Y134104, and the TMRCA (nearly 7000 years) at yfull the last option is the most likely.
The fact that there are Y31991 in cultures unrelated to the Levant (Scythian, Indo-Aryans) show that at least some clades under Y31991 had been out of the Levant for centuries before them.

Also E-PF2025 isn't under E-M123, it's a parallel branch with a common ancestor some 18000 years ago, which makes it quite irrelevant for us.


Edit: Farroukh made a map a while ago, I tend to agree with it, although it might have moved a bit more to the north, over the Alps, after going through the Balkans. Naturally we're just speculating here

https://c.radikal.ru/c32/2005/14/d16ba2f529af.jpg

Velislav
06-27-2020, 10:34 PM
I agree, however, I think that if our line is present nowadays around the Semitic world, it should have been there in the Bronze age too. That study for Southern Levant just could not locate such samples. 31991/4428 is so rare now that I do believe it was the same case in the Bronze age and probably earlier. Also, like the case in Pakistan, could have been always clan oriented, so small isolated pockets here and there are more likely to be found - and for the same reason - less likely to end up found.

Farroukh
06-29-2020, 07:34 PM
Total extinction of this line in Semitic world of Levant I associate with pagan cults of child sacrifices in Ancient Canaa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sacrifice#Ancient_Near_East)n (See: Tophet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tophet))

See also: Human sacrifices in Phoenicia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice#Phoenicia)

hartaisarlag
06-29-2020, 09:34 PM
Total extinction of this line in Semitic world of Levant I associate with pagan cults of child sacrifices in Ancient Canaa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sacrifice#Ancient_Near_East)n (See: Tophet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tophet))

See also: Human sacrifices in Phoenicia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice#Phoenicia)

Why would child sacrifice have decimated only this one particular line?

Farroukh
06-30-2020, 03:44 AM
Not only this one. Also many others too I presume.

xenus
06-30-2020, 08:14 AM
Not only this one. Also many others too I presume.

That's not how it works. Infanticide was extremely common. Even the Aztecs wouldn't have wiped out any y-dna lines just through their sacrifices and they were really into sacrificing people. If they wiped any y-dna lines out it was due to regular genocide. It was pragmatic, and especially before the advent of agriculture it was often a necessity.

Farroukh
06-30-2020, 11:00 AM
We have a few E-M123 downstream subclades (with definite Levantine homeland) but without Levantine bearers.
Infanticide is one of the reasons for ancient times.

eastara
06-30-2020, 12:14 PM
Deliberately exterminating the male line of the enemy was a custom in nomadic societies. Often were murdered not only the person and his sons, but all the male relatives. This was done mainly for prevention of the vendetta, which those people were obliged to do later to avenge their blood relatives. According to the legend even Genghis Han was marked for execution, however the Mongols had some kinder approach not to kill children shorter the cart wheel and this his enemies had to regret later.

Ruderico
06-30-2020, 03:17 PM
Thank you for uploading your sample into yfull, hopefully we'll have new TMRCAs in a couple of weeks or so. FTDNA Block Tree is still at a massive 58 private variants

Velislav
06-30-2020, 09:54 PM
Total extinction of this line in Semitic world of Levant I associate with pagan cults of child sacrifices in Ancient Canaa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sacrifice#Ancient_Near_East)n (See: Tophet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tophet))

See also: Human sacrifices in Phoenicia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice#Phoenicia)

Btw, do you think that 31991/pf4428 could be spread in any way by Phoenicians to western Europe? I noticed that the line is present not only in Lebanon but also in Tunis (where Carthage was located) and also the coastal areas of Portugal, Spain, France and England? Of course, there are other samples in the inner part of the continent but still interesting connection.

Farroukh
07-03-2020, 04:24 AM
If we talk about E-Y134104 we can include late neolithic migrants as an oldest point and also Phoenicians and so called "Tyrsenian" or "Mediterranean" languages (theory of Bulgarian linguist V. Georgiev)

Ruderico
07-03-2020, 12:01 PM
It could have dispersed with Phoenicians (or any other population) from a now-extinct Levantine population with an ancient and local origin, but there's no way to know this without ancient samples, it's just another theory. One thing that could possibly support it is multiple Iberians sharing an ancestor before the fall of Tyre, some 2500 years ago.

By the way, it'll be 2 weeks tomorrow that ACV2 and I matched on Big Y but thus far the branch stays with 58 private variants. Is it just me, or is it taking too long for the branch to update? Maybe this is all there is (I find it unlikely)?

Lupriac
07-03-2020, 01:00 PM
Btw, do you think that 31991/pf4428 could be spread in any way by Phoenicians to western Europe? I noticed that the line is present not only in Lebanon but also in Tunis (where Carthage was located) and also the coastal areas of Portugal, Spain, France and England? Of course, there are other samples in the inner part of the continent but still interesting connection.
The only E-Y31991 Lebanese sample I have seen so far is a Druze one. And he shares the same branch with a Syrian from al-Hasakah, which is not off since some Druze did migrate from northern Syria. I presume this lineage is more likely to have been a northern Levantine one. It's found sporadically throughout Asia and Europe and it would have expanded from that region (northern Syria?) all over.

Ruderico
07-03-2020, 02:18 PM
The only E-Y31991 Lebanese sample I have seen so far is a Druze one. And it shares the same branch with a Syrian sample from al-Hasakah, which is not off since some Druze did migrate from northern Syria. I presume this lineage is more likely to have been a northern Levantine one. It's found sporadically throughout Asia and Europe and it would have expanded from that region all over.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. There's also a Palestinian under PF4428 (listed as Jordanian in FTDNA), I remember Velislav and I talked about that individual but I don't recall whether he was Christian, Muslim or from anywhere else

Velislav
07-03-2020, 09:32 PM
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. There's also a Palestinian under PF4428 (listed as Jordanian in FTDNA), I remember Velislav and I talked about that individual but I don't recall whether he was Christian, Muslim or from anywhere else

He is a Christian, yes. Palestinian from Bethleem from a wealthy Christian clan. From what I know the Palestinians are collection of different peoples, so it is hard to know the exact initial origin but I place my bet on a local Levantine origin for him. The Syrian sample is from the Kurdistan area it seems, so also not 100% sure about him.

Farroukh
07-06-2020, 05:24 AM
Migration scenario of E-Y134104 has many similarities with "my" subclade E-Y37093 (basal Levantine branch, old Bulgarian derivation and ending up in Pyreneans). It seems we were the same tribe 7 ky ago

Lupriac
07-06-2020, 11:12 AM
Some cool information I found and thought of sharing:
I found out that the Yemenite who belongs to E-Y31991 is a member of the "Hamdan" tribe, a famous (and big) Yemeni tribe with branches all over the middle east outside their ancestral home (Yemen), in Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Syria. They were famous warriors and took an influential part in the Islamic conquests of the Levant, Persia and North Africa. And they even inhabited what is called "Manazil Hamdan" (Homes of Hamdan) close to Grenada at the time of the Islamic rule in Iberia. They also were the ones who garrisoned Kufa (in Iraq) and I believe they garrisoned some cities Persia and Lebanon as well. Accordingly, I've also found some old sources (dated to ~898 AD) that claim there's a group of people who belonged to the tribe that inhabited Lebanon too.

(Now of course, as always, not all of the tribe belongs to this specific branch, and there's people who belong to the tribe yet belong to different branches (E-M84, J-FGC12 ..))

Farroukh
07-06-2020, 06:59 PM
I think this Yemenite branch is recent migration from Levant, like many other subclades of E-M84

Ruderico
07-07-2020, 10:24 AM
Okay so FTDNA finally updated the tree and it's what everyone was expecting - ACV2 and I are in a branch of our own, and the other individual (German background) is in a branch of his own. We only share one variant with him: Y168273.

In the 'Iberian branch' we have 10 private variants, and considering that one of the Levantine branches has a sub-branch with 7 private variants with a TMRCA (yfull) of 850 years, it would make our branch some 1200 years old, give or take (assuming the same time span per variant, which may or may not be the case), meaning it split in the 800s.
The 800s are a very critical part of Iberian history because it's in the aftermath of the Berber Wars which had emptied the muslim/berber garrisons, enabling Asturian colonists to populate the territory all the way down to north central Portugal, which would be effectively controlled by the Asturian Kingdom after 868/878 CE when Asturian nobles extended the kingdom's control over those areas. In the case of western Iberia this would end up with the creation of two Christian counties under the Kingdom of Asturias: Portucale (north of the Douro), and Coimbra (south of the Douro). This was only possible because there was a muladi/mozarab revolt in modern southern Portugal/SW Spain by the hand of Ibn Marwan (himself from modern northern Portugal) that cut off the Cordoba's Emirate access to the lands north of the Sistema Central.

So I see two possibilities - one that our branch represent two different colonial movements from Asturias/Galicia into modern Portugal. Keep in mind my earliest genealogical patrilinear ancestor lived some 4km from the Galician border in the late 1600s, so my branch could have been Spanish until the late middle ages/early colonial period. A second one that it was part of the Muladi/Mozarab revolt, and the branch (or one of ours) ended up with the Mozarabs in Asturias/Galicia during the early periods of the Reconquista.

Edit: Of course this interpretation could be totally wrong if yfull turns out giving an incompatible TMRCA

ACV2
07-07-2020, 11:17 AM
Thanks for all the good info. Ruderico

ACV2
07-07-2020, 11:23 AM
Thanks

ACV2
07-07-2020, 12:59 PM
Hello all, from what I could find in internet of E-M123* it does place us to have dispersed around the Bronze age, not before.
Please point archaeologically to me where I could find our line spread outside before Assyrinas came into power and dispersed people all over their kingdom.
Indo-Assyrian were J-Clad dominated, as were the other surrounding Levantine groups, and to the North most were R-clads).

I concede that no current surviving Jewish lines have been demonstrated with E-Y31991; but, that would be no excuse to ignore the archaeological timeline and dispersal of the line.

Another example of older Subgroups often living among younger ones and even branching differently while still the same people. Is not Albert Einstein's terminal subclade E-Z830*? which is older than both E-M123, E-Pf1962?

RCO
07-07-2020, 01:17 PM
Okay so FTDNA finally updated the tree and it's what everyone was expecting - ACV2 and I are in a branch of our own, and the other individual (German background) is in a branch of his own. We only share one variant with him: Y168273.

In the 'Iberian branch' we have 10 private variants, and considering that one of the Levantine branches has a sub-branch with 7 private variants with a TMRCA (yfull) of 850 years, it would make our branch some 1200 years old, give or take (assuming the same time span per variant, which may or may not be the case), meaning it split in the 800s.
The 800s are a very critical part of Iberian history because it's in the aftermath of the Berber Wars which had emptied the muslim/berber garrisons, enabling Asturian colonists to populate the territory all the way down to north central Portugal, which would be effectively controlled by the Asturian Kingdom after 868/878 CE when Asturian nobles extended the kingdom's control over those areas. In the case of western Iberia this would end up with the creation of two Christian counties under the Kingdom of Asturias: Portucale (north of the Douro), and Coimbra (south of the Douro). This was only possible because there was a muladi/mozarab revolt in modern southern Portugal/SW Spain by the hand of Ibn Marwan (himself from modern northern Portugal) that cut off the Cordoba's Emirate access to the lands north of the Sistema Central.

So I see two possibilities - one that our branch represent two different colonial movements from Asturias/Galicia into modern Portugal. Keep in mind my earliest genealogical patrilinear ancestor lived some 4km from the Galician border in the late 1600s, so my branch could have been Spanish until the late middle ages/early colonial period. A second one that it was part of the Muladi/Mozarab revolt, and the branch (or one of ours) ended up with the Mozarabs in Asturias/Galicia during the early periods of the Reconquista.

Edit: Of course this interpretation could be totally wrong if yfull turns out giving an incompatible TMRCA

You don't need necessarily any Asturian or Galician genealogical connection because the territory between the Minho and Douro, Entre-Douro-e-Minho, specially the Atlantic regions had a good population and a good demographic concentration since Roman times as a good rural territory, we can read several articles and thesis about the continuity of the Paróquias, local Churches, local communities and of course the continuity of a proper genetic identity, autosomal, Y-DNA and mt-DNA different from the East and bigger than the North, the Entre-Douro-e-Minho population has always been bigger than Galicia since the Roman times and even the Islamic conquest hadn't broken the local rural society and communities, the Arabs, Moors and Berbers - the Muslim Power just controlled the garrisons and the urban locations, but soon the local Christians regained the control of the urban locations and the territory became a Christian agressive stronghold in the Reconquista, strong enough to challenge and defeat the Northern Galicians and Castillians everytime that was needed, they did that because they had enough population, language, culture, local nobility and a sense of identity and autonomy. [A velha tese do ermamento do Minho estava equivocada_ podemos continuar na página em português]

Ruderico
07-07-2020, 02:32 PM
You don't need necessarily any Asturian or Galician genealogical connection because the territory between the Minho and Douro, Entre-Douro-e-Minho

Yes, but my two closest matches are two Mexicans, followed by a Galician (both surnames from Lugo) and a Brazilian. It's possible our common ancestor was from south of the river Minho, but it seems more likely he was from somewhere further north

Velislav
07-07-2020, 04:20 PM
Hello all, from what I could find in internet of E-M123* it does place us to have dispersed around the Bronze age, not before.
Please point archaeologically to me where I could find our line spread outside before Assyrinas came into power and dispersed people all over their kingdom.
Indo-Assyrian were J-Clad dominated, as were the other surrounding Levantine groups, and to the North most were R-clads).

I concede that no current surviving Jewish lines have been demonstrated with E-Y31991; but, that would be no excuse to ignore the archaeological timeline and dispersal of the line.

Another example of older Subgroups often living among younger ones and even branching differently while still the same people. Is not Albert Einstein's terminal subclade E-Z830*? which is older than both E-M123, E-Pf1962?


Based on the info on Yfull, we have the Palestinian (Levantine) branch PF4428>Y134097 dated around 6700 YBP and then my own Balkan derivate branch Y134104 dated around 6600 YBP - that would correspond to either Late Neolithic period or early Eneolithic period. The timeline is showing the terminal date of a Levantine migration to Europe, I guess from Anatolia to the Balkans. This time period would predate the existence of both the Assyrians and Jewish people. I'd personally like the idea of a historical connection to an ancient cilivisation but our line is just too rare and ancient for that at this point.
E-Z830 is indeed older and present among Jews and is also confirmed to be present in the area since Natufian time, however, our line specifically has not been found to date in that population. Another interesting fact is that practically all e-m123* people so far do not have any known foreign (Levantine/Jewish) patrilinear ancestor, at least from the people who shared info about that.

ACV2
09-04-2020, 01:44 PM
Hello, thought I'd give an update on new timeline given to our new branch (formed 5900 ybp, TMRCA 850 ybp).
Main Fact: Our E-123* folks still have solid counterparts in the Levant but also leave traces from oldest to most recent in Bulgaria, Romania, Germany, then peak in Portugal as the main concentration of people and subsequently Brazil (which kind of imitates the Sephardic Diaspora and gives similar dates down to forced Sephardic conversion times,).

My Explanation: The Main branch directly before 123* (which is E-PF1962) is Jewish old clade branch. The branch under E-M123 with the most Jewish Fruitage goes thru E-M34 then down to E-L791. There are twigs branches under E-M34 without Jewish fruitage, but just as E-M123* branch had to go thru the Jewish E-PF1962 main branch, so did all Jewish E-L791 fruit had to go thru my 123 branch. Likely, those E-L791 and down stream, returned to Ashkenazi territory while their upstream E-M123* stayed back in Sephardic countries and forcefully converted. It is likely they were hardest hit by the conversion by being mainly in the North of Iberia instead of other Jews in the south who successfully fled and thus continued Sephardic traditions.
Summary: Main Jewish E clade branch (old E-PF1962 and subclades)--- smaller "lost" branch (E-M123* and subclades)- Twig mainly without Jewish Fruitage (E-M34)- twig with Jewish Fruitage (E-L791). Also, as noted above diaspora Geographical routes and diaspora conversion times (with the new Most recent common ancestor time for my "new" branch) match.

Note: I am no saying all E-PF 1962 or all E-M123 and E-M123* folks are of Jewish heritage, just as most E-M34 and their descendants are clearly and in fact not. What I am saying is the likely the particular branch that is mainly found in Northern Iberia was mostly indeed of Jewish heritage and converted, thus was "lost" to Judaism.

Ruderico
09-04-2020, 01:53 PM
The first sentence on your explanation is factually incorrect, as E-PF1962 is estimated to be 19000 years old, about fourteen millenia older than Judaism, it's even older than proto-Afro-Asiatic. We already had this discussion, at the moment there isn't a single Jewish individual with this clade, past or present, so there isn't any evidence supporting your Jewish theory. Even the Palestinian individual, with whom we share an ancestor who lived before Judaism, is Christian.
No idea why you keep so adamant on it being Jewish, for the time being it makes no sense at all.



Note: I am no saying all E-PF 1962 or all E-M123 and E-M123* folks are of Jewish heritage, just as most E-M34 and their descendants are clearly and in fact not. What I am saying is the likely the particular branch that is mainly found in Northern Iberia was mostly indeed of Jewish heritage and converted, thus was "lost" to Judaism.

You didn't present any evidence in favour of it

Edit: Since I don't like repeating myself, I'll just quote what I wrote to you by PM


None of the people within our clade are Jewish, even the really distant Palestinian individual is Christian, nor does any of us know of any Jewish connection (patrilinear or not). None of the places people where our closest matches in Europe are found are known to have had Jews, either today or in the past. None of the historical samples collected within south Levant Bronze/Iron Ages have our clade, and some of those were certainly related to Jewish populations.
E-Z830 doesn't matter because it's extremely old, it predates Natufians and all Afro-Asiatic languages by millennia, let alone Hebrews. It's 20000 years old, it can exist just about anywhere east of the Atlantic Ocean.


NW Iberia (Asturias/León/Galicia/northern Portugal) had a non-existent, or residual at best, Jewish population in the early 1000s.
Most Jews lived in the South in large urban centres in Al-Andalus, not in the war-torn, barely urbanised Christian territories that didn't even have a monetary economy. These territories were constantly being colonised by pioneers, individuals and families who were trying their chances in newly-controlled territories in modern northern Portugal under the lords/count appointed by the King, that's why Portuguese and Galicians are genetically so closely related, and spoke the same language until the late medieval period. In a way it's similar to what Americans did after the Revolutionary War and the Louisiana Purchase in the western territories. Considering our clade seems to have expanded from NW Iberia in the middle ages, a Jewish ancestor is even less likely, considering how oppressed and marginalised they were during all the Middle Ages. Iberian Jews didn't have this sort of expansion, if anything they were ghettoed in Judiarias where they could be controlled and separated from the general populace.
I'm also very sceptical of your claim that "80% of all Jews in the world" were in Iberia. Where did you read that?
José Mattoso, the best Medievalist in Portugal, estimated that the Jewish population in Portugal even after their Alhambra Decree, was around 0.4% of the national population, and most of those Jews lived in the eastern border with Spain, generally in Bragança, Guarda and Castelo Branco. Local non-Spanish Jews were especially concentrated in Lisbon, Porto and maybe Coimbra - the largest cities in the country.

The Kazakhstan and Pakistan clades are Indo-Aryan, not Semitic, and belong to Scythians and Veddic peoples, none has any connection to Jews and their link to the Levant is probably as old as ours. If they are related to us, it's because of Sarmato-Alans or Visigoths, not Jews. The Pakistani samples seem like they belonged to a single clan because they all share the same haplogroup, and were buried together in the same site, one even had gold offerings if I'm not mistaken.

ACV2
09-04-2020, 05:48 PM
maybe I confused the statement meant to state E-PF1962 and it's branch (meaning it's subclades), it is before E-M123 is it not and it is mainly of Jewish heritage i.e. we have to have that mutation 1st in order to get to E-M123.
I hear your point. I am not a dna scientist to state that it cannot be your theory. With my simple understanding, my explanation is very evident. and it takes a lot more spin to see it your way.

Ruderico
09-04-2020, 07:11 PM
I suspect you may be very unfamiliar with how haplogroups work. E-PF1962 was formed nearly 20000 years ago, everyone who descended from that person has developed additional mutations downstream of that, they all went their different ways from our patrilineal ancestors thousands of years ago. This probably happened in the Levant (edit: or NE Africa). Where and when they all went is completely irrelevant for us, so using some distant branch to justify yours doesn't make sense. We also certainly have Indo-Aryan cousins, that doesn't mean our branch is one. You have to look at the clades upstream of your terminal one, not a parallel one that doesn't matter because we shared a male ancestor 10000, or 7000 years ago, before Judaism was even a thing. Velislav's branch is Vlach/Romanian, but that doesn't mean I am too. Our common ancestor lived 6700 years ago, that's some 4800 years before anyone in modern Romania wven spoke Latin, so even the linguistic connection (Portuguese and Romanian being Romance languages ) is likely not relevant.

Maybe one day we'll have a Jewish match, maybe we won't, but so far there is none. However keep in mind that even if we do get one, Jewish populations also have numerous non-Jewish haplogroups, there are plenty of R-DF27 Sephardi Jews who got their haplogroups from native Iberians who married into Jewish communities, so the branch will have both Jews and non-Jews. They are not immediately all Jewish individuals just because one is.


You have yet to give a single supporting argument for your case, all you've said so far relates to (very) distant branches from a time before even Afro-Asiatic, let alone Hebrew, existed. I'm not saying your theory is impossible, but so far I don't see why it should be plausible. Occam's Razor. In fact I'd dare and say it's more likely to be Scandinavian, on account of at least me having a Y12 Norwegian match, than Jewish. Not that I think it is Scandinavian, I don't, but looking at the available data - Norwegian Y12 match, + definitely sharing the clade with a German during the late neolithic - even that seems more likely at this point.

RCO
09-04-2020, 10:01 PM
Sephardic/Jews have their own specific clusters, just like Arabs and all organized ethnicites have their own clusters in the last 1000 years, at least. In the case here E-Y31991>FT17866 looks like to be a small and rare group, E-M123 basal, ancient and we still need more samples to understand the trail/chain until NW Iberia where we can find a small Portuguese group, probably from the Interior because the Portuguese Atlantic clusters from the Minho, just like mine, even small, have another pattern of dispersion and distribution. Core Portuguese clusters just like mine and several other are all related to the same demographic logic of the moving frontier, from the Minho's concentration and wars around the year 1000-1100 to the Central and Southern Portuguese Conquests, the Atlantic Islands, North African wars and the toughest and wildest frontiers of centuries in Continental Brazil, so just follow the data as always. If you have the STR modal of E-Y31991>FT17866 you can search in old articles and databases, lots of STR data before the SNP sequencing.

Ruderico
09-04-2020, 10:17 PM
until NW Iberia where can find a small Portuguese group, probably from the Interior because the Portuguese Atlantic clusters from the Minho, just like mine, even small, have another pattern of dispersion and distribution.

Who knows, maybe. If the clade was also very rare in the past it's not surprising for it to also be rare today even if it was in the coastal areas of NW Iberia (west Galicia and NW Portugal). That said my earliest ancestor from late 1600s is from a relatively coastal area (Valença) but one of my closest matches has rare Galician surnames specific from Lugo, which is rather interior-ish for these parts. Geneanet has records of the name in NE Lugo, in the northern coast, just bordering Asturias. Searching random people with the surname on facebook showed people in both Lugo, Galicia and Oviedo, Asturias. Naturally this doesn't imply that's where the clade originally was, but I guess you'd be right saying that area didn't have the strong population expansion coastal west Galician/north Portuguese populations had during those periods you mentioned. Particularly if it were in the mountains, but I think this type is speculation is too wild to be taken seriously for the time being

As for STRs I admit I know very little about it, I generally focus a lot more on SNPs

capsian
09-05-2020, 12:53 AM
Hello Ruderico
i think Y DNA E-M123 he got into Europe since the beginning of the early frames anatolian

Velislav
09-20-2020, 10:44 PM
https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/ijms/ijms-20-05763/article_deploy/ijms-20-05763-v2.pdf

In this Sardinian study 5 men were found to be E-M123* in Sardinia.

Regarding mainland Italy, we have:

- 1 Udine
- 1 Offida
- 2 Volterra
- 1 Apulia
- 1 Grecìa Salentina

All of them are from scientific papers, while I haven't seen any commercial results so far in the Italy's project. Interesting hot-spot turns out to be Italy.

So far Portugal is leading with 14 I believe, then Italy, then Germany/Austria=4+1

Ruderico
10-23-2020, 03:44 PM
The branch gained new members, one French, one Brazilian, one Shyabouthisorigins

https://i.postimg.cc/rs3fC5gy/october2020.png


Edit: Sorry for editing this late, but if we assume the French individual doesn't have foreign origins (which theoretically he shouldn't in the recent past) then a possible source might be the arrival of the French contingent into NW Iberia during the late 1000s. One of them was Raymond de Bourgogne, who was crowned King of Galicia, and his cousin Henri who was father to the first king of Portugal. Naturally they brought along their retinue, for instance the order of Cluny gained a lot of importance in the following decades/century. If this holds true, and it may not, maybe one of these individuals who came with them was my patrilineal ancestor...or maybe I'm the rightful King ;)

Shanck
10-23-2020, 05:52 PM
https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/ijms/ijms-20-05763/article_deploy/ijms-20-05763-v2.pdf

In this Sardinian study 5 men were found to be E-M123* in Sardinia.

Regarding mainland Italy, we have:

- 1 Udine
- 1 Offida
- 2 Volterra
- 1 Apulia
- 1 Grecìa Salentina

All of them are from scientific papers, while I haven't seen any commercial results so far in the Italy's project. Interesting hot-spot turns out to be Italy.

So far Portugal is leading with 14 I believe, then Italy, then Germany/Austria=4+1

From the material found in the three studies below, I was able to find some E-M123* (using STR values):

-2 Palestinians (E-M123*(xM34)) (From: Identifying Genetic Traces of Historical Expansions: Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean)

-1 Lebanese (Sunni Muslim) from North lebanon (E-M123*(xM34)) (From: Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Lebanon Is Structured by Recent Historical Events)

-1 Syrian (E-PF4428) (From: Identifying Genetic Traces of Historical Expansions: Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean)

-1 Lebanese (Greek Orthodox Christian) from Beirut (E-PF4428) (From: Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Lebanon Is Structured by Recent Historical Events)

-1 Syrian from "EM HAJJAR" (E-PF4428) (Possibly related to Tell Hajar in Jarabulus?) (From: Geographical structure of the Y-chromosomal genetic landscape of the Levant: a coastal-inland contrast)

Farroukh
10-25-2020, 03:18 AM
The branch gained new members, one French, one Brazilian, one Shyabouthisorigins
My classical question is "Did you contact them to upload their bam-files to Yfull?
Also I see unidentified (no country/no language) sample (YF19777) as basal branch of E-Y168273.

Ruderico
10-25-2020, 10:50 AM
My classical question is "Did you contact them to upload their bam-files to Yfull?
Also I see unidentified (no country/no language) sample (YF19777) as basal branch of E-Y168273.

I have no way to contact these individuals, they are not matches of mine, nor are they on the E-M35 project.
YF19777 is of German origin, we've known him for a while. The kit owner also posted on double-helix

Velislav
10-26-2020, 01:32 AM
From the material found in the three studies below, I was able to find some E-M123* (using STR values):

-2 Palestinians (E-M123*(xM34)) (From: Identifying Genetic Traces of Historical Expansions: Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean)

-1 Lebanese (Sunni Muslim) from North lebanon (E-M123*(xM34)) (From: Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Lebanon Is Structured by Recent Historical Events)

-1 Syrian (E-PF4428) (From: Identifying Genetic Traces of Historical Expansions: Phoenician Footprints in the Mediterranean)

-1 Lebanese (Greek Orthodox Christian) from Beirut (E-PF4428) (From: Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Lebanon Is Structured by Recent Historical Events)

-1 Syrian from "EM HAJJAR" (E-PF4428) (Possibly related to Tell Hajar in Jarabulus?) (From: Geographical structure of the Y-chromosomal genetic landscape of the Levant: a coastal-inland contrast)

Thank you for this info.

In these studies they tested also modern population? I believe we still don't have E-m123* from ancient near eastern samples sadly.

Velislav
02-18-2021, 11:58 AM
Recently found the remarkable six E-M123* individuals in the Druze DNA project from Lebanon:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Druze?iframe=yresults

Ruderico
02-18-2021, 12:11 PM
Recently found the remarkable six E-M123* individuals in the Druze DNA project from Lebanon:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Druze?iframe=yresults

They all belong to E-Y30965 and the downstream FGC62257 subclade which is the autochthonous Levantine branch. Interestingly the FGC62257 branch has a TMRCA of 850 years in yfull which is just marginally less than the time in which Ad-Darazi lived. I'm just guessing here, but maybe their common ancestor could have been either descended from him, or from one of his associates.

capsian
02-18-2021, 12:22 PM
Recently found the remarkable six E-M123* individuals in the Druze DNA project from Lebanon:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Druze?iframe=yresults

Amazing found also branch people Amazigth(Berber) at people Duze

Velislav
02-18-2021, 12:30 PM
Amazing found also branch people Amazigth(Berber) at people Duze

This is very interesting, can you please share more details? I know 1 result from Tunisia from scientific literature and someone mentioned Egypt a while ago but could not provide a source. Any information on this rare haplogroup would be appreciated.

Velislav
02-18-2021, 12:32 PM
They all belong to E-Y30965 and the downstream FGC62257 subclade which is the autochthonous Levantine branch. Interestingly the FGC62257 branch has a TMRCA of 850 years in yfull which is just marginally less than the time in which Ad-Darazi lived. I'm just guessing here, but maybe their common ancestor could have been either descended from him, or from one of his associates.

Great observation, haven't thought of this. Maybe they all derive from a single or a handful of individuals within the Druze group.

Ruderico
02-18-2021, 03:10 PM
I might as well show the results from the very old Beleza et al 2006, even though the sample per district was quite small, in some cases ridiculously so. Ironically my District (Viana do Castelo) didn't show any positives, but with a sample of 59 you can't expect much for rare haplogroups. E-M123* corresponds to E3b1c*, it's virtually absent in the southern half of the country. Keep in mind that my own terminal branch isn't the only one present in Portugal.

I'll add their map for geographical information. A bit embarrassingly they got the Region borders and Bragança location wrong, but whatever.
https://i.postimg.cc/D01F8gYz/st2.png


https://i.postimg.cc/CL6nGMvp/Sem-T-tulo.png

Velislav
02-18-2021, 03:55 PM
It seems that there is 1 from Beja in Southern Portugal, I believe the 12,5% is just 1 person in this case? I believe Portugal also has the archaic clade that is present in Germany and Armenia (10,900 YBP) and the more recent ones as well.

Ruderico
02-18-2021, 04:08 PM
It seems that there is 1 from Beja in Southern Portugal, I believe the 12,5% is just 1 person in this case? I believe Portugal also has the archaic clade that is present in Germany and Armenia (10,900 YBP) and the more recent ones as well.

Yes, 1 positive but merely 8 samples, so it's clearly not representative. There's also no genealogical research, people got assigned to the regions they were originally born in, in which case I'd be from Lisbon..but I have no ancestry from Lisbon whatsoever in the last 300 years.

FTDNA has two Portuguese in a subclade parallel to PF4428 (E-BY56961), but even within PF4428 there are individuals of Iberian background who are not in our common branch. Clearly multiple groups moved here over time, but I'm suspecting none are very ancient in Portugal. Mine is probably medieval French.

capsian
02-18-2021, 05:16 PM
This is very interesting, can you please share more details? I know 1 result from Tunisia from scientific literature and someone mentioned Egypt a while ago but could not provide a source. Any information on this rare haplogroup would be appreciated.

this branch is no rare in North Africa on the contrary, it is the most widespread among the branches E-M81

capsian
02-18-2021, 05:18 PM
It may be the reason for its presence among the Douz people in the Middle Ages becuase there are a lot of Maghreb merchants and soldiers who have gone to the Middle East

Velislav
02-18-2021, 05:35 PM
this branch is no rare in North Africa on the contrary, it is the most widespread among the branches E-M81

You got my interest - do you have results available from Ftna projects or personal results? What sub-clades are present?

capsian
02-18-2021, 05:45 PM
You got my interest - do you have results available from Ftna projects or personal results? What sub-clades are present?

i know Many friends on under E-Z5009 its various branches
go to the projectE-M81 in FTDNA https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-m81/about/background

Ruderico
02-18-2021, 05:50 PM
E-Z5009 isn't under E-M123* though, nor is M81

capsian
02-18-2021, 05:53 PM
E-Z5009 isn't under E-M123* though, nor is M81

yes i know i just mean about one sample from people Duze under E-M81

Squad
02-18-2021, 06:37 PM
Actually, Druze are high on E-M81. I reckon most fall under its A2227 and Z5009 sub-clades

Squad
02-18-2021, 09:15 PM
Actually, Druze are high on E-M81. I reckon most fall under its A2227 and Z5009 sub-clades

Velislav
02-18-2021, 09:32 PM
i know Many friends on under E-Z5009 its various branches
go to the projectE-M81 in FTDNA https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-m81/about/background

This is a different haplogroup, this thread is about:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

capsian
02-18-2021, 09:52 PM
This is a different haplogroup, this thread is about:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

yes i know just when i have seen sample under E-M81 i m comment thanks

capsian
02-18-2021, 09:55 PM
This is a different haplogroup, this thread is about:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

Haplgroup E-Y31991 this branch i think maybe are Farmers Antolian-Levantine

Velislav
04-15-2021, 12:12 PM
So now we have 2 Scythians E-M123* - although they are from another branch. Both The Scythian branch and E-Y31991 stem from E-FT20896.

altvred
04-15-2021, 01:28 PM
So now we have 2 Scythians E-M123* - although they are from another branch. Both The Scythian branch and E-Y31991 stem from E-FT20896.

The E-Y31991 found in the 'Scythian' from Alai Nura is probably related to the one's in Swat Valley (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples&p=762879&viewfull=1#post762879)

Pribislav
04-15-2021, 01:57 PM
The E-Y31991 found in the 'Scythian' from Alai Nura is probably related to the one's in Swat Valley (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples&p=762879&viewfull=1#post762879)

I rechecked all ancient Y31991 samples with FTDNA Block tree SNPs, and all of them indeed belong to the same clade (FT179548) that had split from the main Y31991 lineage quite early:

ALN008; ~300 AD; Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials, Kyrgyzstan; Late Saka; E-Y31991>FT179548>FT169238>FT167798 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-FT167798)

DA19; 801-749 BC; Karaterekh, Burial 1, Maiskij rajon, Kazakhstan; Central Saka_o; E-Y31991>FT179548>FT169238* (xFT167798) (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-FT169238)

I1799, I1985, I3262, I6197, I6899, I6900; ~1500-800 BC; Udegram, Swat Valley, Pakistan; SPGT; E-Y31991>FT179548>FT377116 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-FT377116)


44350

Velislav
04-15-2021, 02:07 PM
I rechecked all ancient Y31991 samples with FTDNA Block tree SNPs, and all of them indeed belong to the same clade (FT179548) that had split from the main Y31991 lineage quite early:

ALN008; ~300 AD; Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials, Kyrgyzstan; Late Saka; E-Y31991>FT179548>FT169238>FT167798 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-FT167798)

DA19; 801-749 BC; Karaterekh, Burial 1, Maiskij rajon, Kazakhstan; Central Saka_o; E-Y31991>FT179548>FT169238* (xFT167798) (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-FT169238)

I1799, I1985, I3262, I6197, I6899, I6900; ~1500-800 BC; Udegram, Swat Valley, Pakistan; SPGT; E-Y31991>FT179548>FT377116 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-FT377116)

Тhank you for this interesting information. By quite early, are we speaking about the Mesolithic period or Neolithic, if it is known at this point? I see the Scythian branch is not available on Yfull but only on FTDNA where this information cannot be salvaged.

altvred
04-15-2021, 02:48 PM
I rechecked all ancient Y31991 samples with FTDNA Block tree SNPs, and all of them indeed belong to the same clade (FT179548) that had split from the main Y31991 lineage quite early:

ALN008; ~300 AD; Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials, Kyrgyzstan; Late Saka; E-Y31991>FT179548>FT169238>FT167798 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-FT167798)

DA19; 801-749 BC; Karaterekh, Burial 1, Maiskij rajon, Kazakhstan; Central Saka_o; E-Y31991>FT179548>FT169238* (xFT167798) (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-FT169238)

I1799, I1985, I3262, I6197, I6899, I6900; ~1500-800 BC; Udegram, Swat Valley, Pakistan; SPGT; E-Y31991>FT179548>FT377116 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E;name=E-FT377116)

Thanks for taking a closer look at them Pribislav! I went by just the YFull tree when comparing ALN008 and two of the Swat Valley fellows - never would have occurred to me to check the FTDNA tree as well.

Pribislav
04-15-2021, 02:50 PM
Тhank you for this interesting information. By quite early, are we speaking about the Mesolithic period or Neolithic, if it is known at this point? I see the Scythian branch is not available on Yfull but only on FTDNA where this information cannot be salvaged.

According to my calculations the split occurred sometime between 13500-11500 BC, so Natufian origin of this clade would make the most sense IMO, both temporally and spatially.

Chad Rohlfsen
04-15-2021, 03:46 PM
I am also E-Y31991 - good to see other rare folk around. Our line could be either Paleolithic or Neolithic or even Chalcolithic in Europe as seen in Yfull - https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/ - but seems too old to be connected with the Bronze age or later migrations. I am not sure if I understand correctly but you see connection between 31991 and Jewish people? I must say the Jewish people are probably the best studied ethnicity in the world and so far there are none that would be 31991/4428.
You are right about the Natufian connection, however, the Levantine branch of out haplogroup is all Arabic. Also, there are people in Tunis who are pf4428 but I don't know details about them. Worth mentioning 2 Armenians also.
In Europe our line is spread mostly in the West - Portugal is the hot spot, also Spain, Fance, England, Norway, Germany, Austria and Italy. In the East, it is found only in Bulgaria, Romania and Moldova - what Im poised to call a Thracian branch.
If you wish you can upload to Yfull where you will get a branch and time to most recent common ancestor. I am the Bulgarian sample.

That almost sounds like a cardial spread. This is kinda odd.

Velislav
04-15-2021, 04:32 PM
That almost sounds like a cardial spread. This is kinda odd.

I cannot define it archaeologically but from the data on Yfull (TMRCA not present at the moment), it seems that it might have migrated from Near East to Europe at any time between 10,000 to 6700 years before present. This is exactly the Neolithic time frame and I guess that E-Y31991 managed to infiltrate another bigger migratory wave of let say G2a and travel among them to Europe. Since this haplogroup is so rare in its homeland, it seems that it was always a minor lineage, hence would be a matter of pure luck to pop up in ancient samples.

altvred
04-15-2021, 05:54 PM
I cannot define it archaeologically but from the data on Yfull (TMRCA not present at the moment), it seems that it might have migrated from Near East to Europe at any time between 10,000 to 6700 years before present. This is exactly the Neolithic time frame and I guess that E-Y31991 managed to infiltrate another bigger migratory wave of let say G2a and travel among them to Europe. Since this haplogroup is so rare in its homeland, it seems that it was always a minor lineage, hence would be a matter of pure luck to pop up in ancient samples.
It is interesting that the dominant lineages that arrived with the spread of agriculture, like G2a, are rare in modern Europe or the in the case of minor subclades like H and C-V86 almost extinct - while subclades that would have only been a minority in the Neolithic farmer population have a far more even and extensive modern distribution across Europe.

capsian
04-15-2021, 06:27 PM
It is interesting that the dominant lineages that arrived with the spread of agriculture, like G2a, are rare in modern Europe or the in the case of minor subclades like H and C-V86 almost extinct - while subclades that would have only been a minority in the Neolithic farmer population have a far more even and extensive modern distribution across Europe.

like E-L618

Ruderico
04-16-2021, 09:01 AM
It is interesting that the dominant lineages that arrived with the spread of agriculture, like G2a, are rare in modern Europe or the in the case of minor subclades like H and C-V86 almost extinct - while subclades that would have only been a minority in the Neolithic farmer population have a far more even and extensive modern distribution across Europe.

I'm guessing these were more likely to have survived in more remote areas that were not well suited for the newer immigrants, such as mountain areas and whatnot. Our (Velislav's and mine) branch seems to have an old connection to France, it might have survived somewhere in the NW Alps, for example.

capsian
04-24-2021, 09:06 PM
I find little awareness in Forums, Groups, Pages, etc. I have joined, that : Older Y-DNA subclades can reside among younger ones.
There are many examples, but the ones on the matter can be seen with J2a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#Genetics) & J2b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J)and their respective subclades. The millenium or century another subclad comes in, does not mean the older one goes extinct, nor that if they both branch/ mutate further, that they have to be another people all together; although, eventually they will drift.

Further example: Out of the Levant (OL) Asian findings of early E-Z827, E-Z830 (upstream of E-M123) & E-Y31991, E-Pf4428 ( down stream of E-M123*) have been dated as during or after the Assyrian empire and found all around it’s empire. Before those times, Natufians descendants have been dated Inside of the Levant (IL) and down to Ethiopia. Also not until after bronze age are E-M123 descendants found in Europe and all over. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6062619/ alsohttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4231410/#sup1
The above times coincide with when the Assyrians misplaced the Northern Kingdom Israelites.
https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-tablets-reveal-2-700-year-old-forced-relocation-by-assyrian-conquerors-1.7906334?fbclid=IwAR2bKkuGMK3bzIIPe_O8BeCJW_Bx55V 9VU598cGmkc0d4Is_OEoGI1ij28Q

Natufians were an E-M123 dominated Haplogroup, All other people that surrounded them around the Levant (a.k.a. The Scythians, Assyrians, Saka, other Iranians, Lebaneese/ Cannanites, Philistines, etc.) are proven to have been from other Haplotypes (during that era’s archeological findings). Note: In more modern times descendants of E-M123* can be found all over the Levant and around it.

95%+ of E-M123 are also E-M34. But E-M123* are most frequently so far, out of Northern Portugal; although, there are others all around. I have not seen a single sample case where E-M123* is found in Africa or in Saudi Arabia. It seems to be a strictly Levant originated Haplo Type.

It also insinuates that E-M123* may just be a small minority of Israelite descendants, and just mutated SNP’s differently and since the subclad is so small and hard to find, they just get lost among Israelite Diasporas. Note: E-PF2025 ( under E-M123 mutation but no E-M34 either) is just as old as E-M123* and yet unquestioned and predominantly Jewish. S(https://jewishdna.net/index.html

So why group E-M123* with E-M34’s instead of E-M123 descendants (E-Y31991) having it’s own branch like E-PF2025?
How else does one (more reasonably) 1) explain the same archeological path and time frames as the other 2 Israelite Diaspora’s? 2) The same dominating E-M123 haplogroups not found elsewhere? 3) And the same historical clustering in different nations after the Diasporas?

Sure, after the Diasporas they could have joined Phoienecians, Visigoths and or Romans, but the main clusters are found where the other Israelites went.

E-M84* he is Jewish or espanian or no

leorcooper19
04-25-2021, 01:28 AM
E-M84* he is Jewish or espanian or no

If I recall correctly, YF05886 is a Qatari.

Velislav
11-19-2021, 06:00 PM
3 new E-M123* samples are found in Spain:

1- from Madrid
1- from Lerida
1- from Salamanca

Ruderico
11-19-2021, 06:52 PM
Here's how it's currently looking like under E-Y134104 (BY36858). The '?' individual is an American of German background, as far as I know from a village near the French border. TMRCA still at 6700 ybp.

https://i.postimg.cc/gjjrTyY8/E-Y134104.png

Velislav
11-20-2021, 10:47 PM
2 cases are found also in marsh Arabs in Southern Iraq.

Velislav
11-24-2021, 09:04 AM
I made a blog to collect any individual E-M123* samples rather than just posting them randomly here:

https://e-m123.blogspot.com/

Farroukh
11-24-2021, 05:09 PM
Also added this speculative map :)

https://c.radikal.ru/c32/2005/14/d16ba2f529af.jpg (https://radikal.ru)

capsian
11-28-2021, 09:53 AM
I made a blog to collect any individual E-M123* samples rather than just posting them randomly here:

https://e-m123.blogspot.com/

Hi i was have seen one sample from algeria or morocco in fact i don't remember from where
it was Negative to M34 and positive to M123 so very possible it's Y31991

capsian
11-28-2021, 09:58 AM
Also added this speculative map :)

https://c.radikal.ru/c32/2005/14/d16ba2f529af.jpg (https://radikal.ru)

do you think this branch was early anatolian with haplogroup H-P96 and G2a and T-M70 and spread to europe since 9000 yrs

Velislav
11-28-2021, 02:49 PM
Hi i was Have seen one sample from algeria or morocco in fact i don't remember from where
it was Negative to M34 and positive to M123 so very possible it's Y31991

Do you know if this can be checked somewhere?

capsian
11-28-2021, 05:04 PM
Do you know if this can be checked somewhere?

Hi Velislav i havee seen post a long time maybe 7 months this result in group genome North Africa DNA