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Nqp15hhu
06-27-2020, 10:57 AM
It has been a personal quest to determine where my Y line originated in Scotland and when the line came to Ulster. Tyrone Bowes make it seem easy to do this, but I am struggling. I query many geneaological experts and am never given concrete answers. Many of the places suggested are conflicting. One suggested Northern England, but I don't have many Northern English matches and another suggested the Highlands.

Unfortunately, there are few close Scottish matches and those that are 'close' are at about 800 years out, so their families could've moved since then.

I have gone through my matches at the Y111 level and they are from all over the country. What worsens this is that a lot of my matches are colonial Americans with weak family trees, or family trees that end in Ulster.

How do I determine a region of origin with my Big Y or Y111 results?

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rms2
06-27-2020, 02:04 PM
In my case, I'm an American with y-dna ancestry going back to the colonial period, but I'm brickwalled in Maryland c. 1750. However, I belong to a haplotype cluster with a solid identifying SNP that is pretty easily tied to the Welsh Borders region. That's as precise as it gets for me thus far. The closest I can come to a village is a 106/111 match with a different surname whose mdka was in Llanafan-fawr, Powys, Wales, in about 1670. The next closest to pinpointing a village are a couple of 65/67 matches of mine who are cousins (to each other; again, different surname from mine) and whose family has been in Cardeston, Shropshire, within spitting distance of the Welsh border, as long as they can remember. All three of those matches have Welsh surnames.

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In your case, we'd have to know a lot more about you and your matches to give you any kind of educated answer.

Nqp15hhu
06-27-2020, 02:57 PM
I donít know what information you would like from me. I have gone to BIG Y and have two matches.

My SNP is downstream of FGC32004. Many of my matches though are BY207.

I have 127 Y111 matches.

Elliott/Ellwell - 21
McClean/McClain - 28
McDonald - 7
Duncan - 3
Cumming - 2

I also have a few matches that look to be potentially border names I.e Hall, Crozier, Holmes, Hollingsworth and Holder.

Closest Scottish matches origins

GD 6 - Isle of Skye
GD 6 - Angus
GD 6 - Wigtownshire
GD 6 - Mull
GD 7 - Glasgow
GD 7 - Liverpool
GD 7 - East Lothian
GD 8 - Perth
GD 8 - Campbeltown
GD 8 - Durham
GD 8 - Campbeltown

So as you can see, there is no trend. Itís all over.

rms2
06-27-2020, 04:11 PM
The trend I see is that your matches in the west are far more numerous than your eastern matches, but all those you have pegged on that map are somewhat distant.

You may have to just be patient and in the meantime try to recruit any autosomal matches you get who share your surname or a reasonable variant.

Still don't know your surname.

Dave-V
06-27-2020, 04:41 PM
The only value of Y-DNA as far as determining origins is in grouping matches together whose combined knowledge of their ancestry through traditional research can shed light on where that Y-DNA line spent certain timeframes. Once you go back far enough you don't have any knowledge from traditional research but ancient bones can help there; unfortunately it's usually not an option to conduct archaeological digs on your known ancestors within genealogical timeframes. So if your definition of "origins" is within the time of records, you're pretty much stuck with what you and your matches know together.

I wouldn't hold Tyrone Bowes up as a basis of comparison; his methods have far too many assumptions that can't be validated for specific lines and his reasoning is flawed generally on both Y-DNA and historical grounds. He tells people what they want to hear, not what is provable about their origins.

To your original question as to "has anyone been able to use Y-DNA to determine an origin" the answer is yes when the combined knowledge from the matches gives it up. Maybe the best example I can think of is one of my Vance project subgroups is very clearly from a change of surname in the Maxwell minor nobility branches in south-east Scotland around the 1400-1500s. We can trace the Vance line back to Ireland and pick it up again further back in the Maxwells in Scotland after a gap of about 150 years, so we still have to trace the exact ancestors in between, but the two lines are separately very well documented through traditional genealogy. But that's basically luck.

Personally I think if your current set of matches don't give you enough information to analyze your Y-DNA line's location in the timeframe you're interested in, you need to recruit more matches. If that timeframe was within 5-8 generations back then autosomal DNA might help you locate other more distantly-related candidates for Y-DNA testing; otherwise you're reduced to chasing up likely suspects in certain geographies. We've actually done that a few times and I know of others who have also; basically just gathering people from a phone book who match a given surname and contacting them to ask if they'd be willing to test. In one case for me that worked out nicely, in other cases it has not been as successful.

Nqp15hhu
06-27-2020, 08:02 PM
The trend I see is that your matches in the west are far more numerous than your eastern matches, but all those you have pegged on that map are somewhat distant.

You may have to just be patient and in the meantime try to recruit any autosomal matches you get who share your surname or a reasonable variant.

Still don't know your surname.

My surname is ďCumminsĒ which is an Irish variant, so I am not sure that you can deduce anything from that.

Yes there is a pattern of western(ish) Scotland. But I seem to have half BY207 and half FGC32004 matches. Most of my close matches are actually BY207.

Given the timeframeís covered in STRís Iím surprised I donít have closer GD Scottish matches.

Nqp15hhu
06-27-2020, 08:05 PM
The only value of Y-DNA as far as determining origins is in grouping matches together whose combined knowledge of their ancestry through traditional research can shed light on where that Y-DNA line spent certain timeframes. Once you go back far enough you don't have any knowledge from traditional research but ancient bones can help there; unfortunately it's usually not an option to conduct archaeological digs on your known ancestors within genealogical timeframes. So if your definition of "origins" is within the time of records, you're pretty much stuck with what you and your matches know together.

I wouldn't hold Tyrone Bowes up as a basis of comparison; his methods have far too many assumptions that can't be validated for specific lines and his reasoning is flawed generally on both Y-DNA and historical grounds. He tells people what they want to hear, not what is provable about their origins.

To your original question as to "has anyone been able to use Y-DNA to determine an origin" the answer is yes when the combined knowledge from the matches gives it up. Maybe the best example I can think of is one of my Vance project subgroups is very clearly from a change of surname in the Maxwell minor nobility branches in south-east Scotland around the 1400-1500s. We can trace the Vance line back to Ireland and pick it up again further back in the Maxwells in Scotland after a gap of about 150 years, so we still have to trace the exact ancestors in between, but the two lines are separately very well documented through traditional genealogy. But that's basically luck.

Personally I think if your current set of matches don't give you enough information to analyze your Y-DNA line's location in the timeframe you're interested in, you need to recruit more matches. If that timeframe was within 5-8 generations back then autosomal DNA might help you locate other more distantly-related candidates for Y-DNA testing; otherwise you're reduced to chasing up likely suspects in certain geographies. We've actually done that a few times and I know of others who have also; basically just gathering people from a phone book who match a given surname and contacting them to ask if they'd be willing to test. In one case for me that worked out nicely, in other cases it has not been as successful.
Well the American Ferguson states that his line comes from the Glenshee valley. Iím not sure of that as I have matches from all over Scotland.

I must say I am surprised at the large GD for my Scottish STR matches given the time frame. It makes me query if my family came in the 1400ís even if I know thatís not true.

Yes you are right. I donít have enough close Scottish matches to determine a place of origin. Given that I am supposed to be an NPE Iím not sure who I would recruit.

I have no same surname matches autosomally. If I were to try to go through my Autosomal matches what would you say I should look for?? And how many Centimorgans?

Aha
06-27-2020, 10:05 PM
I have a similar quest for information through Y-DNA. Now the unexpected aspect of my search is that my Scottish ancestor migrated to Eastern Europe (and ended up in deep Siberia). According to 23andme autosomal prediction it is around 1700-1850. Changed surname in assimilation process. Taken surname started on Alba- but had a Slavic suffix.
Y-DNA, both SNP and STR are pointing towards Argyll. So far the most common surname in the list of matches is Campbell at around 20% of the matches.

Nqp15hhu
06-27-2020, 10:10 PM
I have a similar quest for information through Y-DNA. Now the unexpected aspect of my search is that my Scottish ancestor migrated to Eastern Europe (and ended up in deep Siberia). According to 23andme autosomal prediction it is around 1700-1850. Changed surname in assimilation process. Taken surname started on Alba- but had a Slavic suffix.
Y-DNA, both SNP and STR are pointing towards Argyll. So far the most common surname in the list of matches is Campbell at around 20% of the matches.

Oh wow that is fascinating! I wonder why they moved there.

What level have you tested to? How are you determine Argyll?

rms2
06-28-2020, 01:18 PM
My surname is “Cummins” which is an Irish variant, so I am not sure that you can deduce anything from that.

. . .

Maybe, maybe not, but one thing is certain: you can't deduce anything from nothing. So, thanks for telling us your surname.

I'll stick with what I said in post #4 above, which Dave-V seconded, that is, you should look for male autosomal matches who share your surname or a reasonable variant (like Cummings) and try to recruit them for y-dna testing. You might have to pay for a test or two, but it could be worth it.

Peter MacDonald
06-28-2020, 07:03 PM
In my opinion, Tyrone Bowes methods fall into the category of astrological genetic genealogy.

rms2
06-28-2020, 09:07 PM
In my opinion, Tyrone Bowes methods fall into the category of astrological genetic genealogy.

One of my matches paid for Bowes' services a couple of years ago. He determined that we originated in Ceredigion, Wales, which isn't too far off, and I understand his methodology. It used British censuses, so it was a little late and ignored some of the other evidence, but in our case it wasn't too ridiculous.

Nqp15hhu
06-29-2020, 07:15 AM
I think that only works if your surname and matches arenít NPEís and the variant is localised. My surname has many different origins, so they could be from anywhere.

Osiris
06-29-2020, 07:00 PM
Have you reviewed your other matches down to 25 strings? In my line if you're only looking at 67 and 111, other than me and the kits I've paid for, there's only 1 who went to 111. There's maybe one or two more at 37 and the rest are split between 25 and 12. They had a project back in 2002 to determine whether they were related to another family, got the proof they weren't of the same male line and concluded the project way back then. It may be challenging to pull out info from the matches that low but there may be some diamonds there.

rms2
06-29-2020, 07:54 PM
I think that only works if your surname and matches aren’t NPE’s and the variant is localised. My surname has many different origins, so they could be from anywhere.

What "only works if your surname and matches aren’t NPE’s and the variant is localised"? Bowes' methodology?

I have a fairly common surname. It isn't exactly "localised".

What makes you think your matches are NPEs?

Aha
06-29-2020, 08:05 PM
Oh wow that is fascinating! I wonder why they moved there.

What level have you tested to? How are you determine Argyll?

At this stage it is a best guess. I tested 2 SNP packs and Y37. SNP packs so far were a lot more useful than STR at point out a specific area. Y37 and Y25 came back without matches. Y12 showed a picture that was similar to SNP test.
You might know this tool already. It is quite useful: an SNP county mapper: http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/countyMapper.html
SNP frequency:
https://i.imgur.com/56sKu48.png

STR (Y-12) matches:
https://i.imgur.com/hx3QrAG.png

As to why moved. There were different reasons. This could have been one of the reasons to leave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

As for Eastern European Scott migrations, some information is provided in these two wiki pages:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_diaspora (bottom of the page, Poland)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Russians

Nqp15hhu
06-29-2020, 09:02 PM
Have you reviewed your other matches down to 25 strings? In my line if you're only looking at 67 and 111, other than me and the kits I've paid for, there's only 1 who went to 111. There's maybe one or two more at 37 and the rest are split between 25 and 12. They had a project back in 2002 to determine whether they were related to another family, got the proof they weren't of the same male line and concluded the project way back then. It may be challenging to pull out info from the matches that low but there may be some diamonds there.

My matches produce a map at Y37 and it doesnít change from that point onwards.

Nqp15hhu
06-29-2020, 09:03 PM
At this stage it is a best guess. I tested 2 SNP packs and Y37. SNP packs so far were a lot more useful than STR at point out a specific area. Y37 and Y25 came back without matches. Y12 showed a picture that was similar to SNP test.
You might know this tool already. It is quite useful: an SNP county mapper: http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/countyMapper.html
SNP frequency:
https://i.imgur.com/56sKu48.png

STR (Y-12) matches:
https://i.imgur.com/hx3QrAG.png

As to why moved. There were different reasons. This could have been one of the reasons to leave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

As for Eastern European Scott migrations, some information is provided in these two wiki pages:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_diaspora (bottom of the page, Poland)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Russians

That’s fascinating. Put’s it in the same category as Irish Argentinians.

I wouldn’t use the Y12 maps though. I matches all over the world with that.

https://imgur.com/a/eFWFtiY

MacUalraig
06-29-2020, 09:09 PM
Always best to concentrate on links to rural locations, places like Glasgow and Liverpool sucked in huge populations in the industrial era from large catchment areas. In the case of Glasgow that includes the highlands and Ulster. Back in the 1600s it was only ranked 10th biggest burgh in Scotland - put another way, I doubt many people really 'come from Glasgow' in a meaningful sense.

Aha
06-30-2020, 12:22 PM
That’s fascinating. Put’s it in the same category as Irish Argentinians.

I wouldn’t use the Y12 maps though. I matches all over the world with that.

https://imgur.com/a/eFWFtiY

Woah, that is a lot of matches. Unfortunately my kit only has 60 Y12 matches and absolutely none on Y25 or Y37 levels. More than half of those Y12 matches are Americans... Maybe I can learn something from the pattern it is distributed there, but I do not know much about Scottish migrations to Americas.

I have checked STR differences in the Z251 project with other Z17662 persons, it seems like the biggest changes are in the "red" STRs. Almost all of them are shifted by one in either direction in comparison to most common one. That is sad. I do not know if it is possible to crosscheck closest excluding those red STR numbers

FionnSneachta
06-30-2020, 06:42 PM
I've been able to determine an origin based on Y-DNA results. My surname isn't localised as Kelly is a very common surname with multiple origins. The origin is based on the combined knowledge of the matches. Most matches have their origins around the Roscommon/Galway border. Every branch has a Kelly with an origin in these locations. It also matches up with the family lore associated with the origin of the surname in that part of Ireland.

However, NPEs can also be used to determine an origin. The NPE surname can often be a surname that was also in the area. I believe that Bowes uses NPE surnames this way. This is seen in our group where we have Dyer, Heavey and Madden which are surnames associated with Connacht. Also looking the history of a surname and surnames associated with the family can help to identify an origin. For example, there is a Keogh in our group and the history associated with the family has Keogh descended from a common ancestor O'Kelly who lived in the 1200s. You could look at the different origins for Cummins and variants in Scotland and try to find the tribal association with other surnames. One of the NPEs successfully identified his Kelly ancestor. He thought that his paternal was from Denmark but found the connection to a Kelly ancestor in Canada.

I really wouldn't get hung up on the spelling of a surname as they can change so easily through the years. A surname in my family has changed from Feenaghty to Finaghty to Finnerty.

You can use STR matches to determine a pattern for an origin. However, you have lots of STR matches that aren't actually closely connected, likely due to convergence. Therefore, I would focus on your closest Big Y matches followed by the next closest SNP branch and so on to try and identify an origin. In your case, you'd be focusing on matches positive for S2292 followed by A7711 followed by BY2634 followed by BY651 followed by FGC32004 followed by S5982, etc. You say that a lot of your STR matches are BY207 but I wouldn't give them as much attention as your closest matches since SNP testing has shown that they're not closely connected.

Nqp15hhu
06-30-2020, 07:45 PM
Thanks. So should I look at surnames within those branches and identify common locations??

I do have a lot of BY207 which mostly seem to be McClean. They have a highland islands skewing.

Itís a pity I couldnít filter BY207 out of my matches. I will try on Excel.

Nqp15hhu
06-30-2020, 10:05 PM
Through analysis of my Y111 matches and the Vance L193 records, I have found 51 BY207 matches (including my 109 GD match - how does that work out?). I seem to have a very close connection with BY207. I have 21 FGC32004 matches.

Nearly all of my BY207 matches are McClean, FGC32004 has a much broader range of surnames: Elliott, Hall, Holder, Wilson, Montgomery, Profitt, Crozier and Roland. The lack of clustering outside Elliott, concerns me.

Looking through my FGC32004 matches, SEVERAL have end points in North Carolina. I only have five directly from Scotland, in Perthshire, East Lothian, Glasgow and Roxburgh but two matches are from one ancestor.

FionnSneachta
06-30-2020, 11:23 PM
Through analysis of my Y111 matches and the Vance L193 records, I have found 51 BY207 matches (including my 109 GD match - how does that work out?). I seem to have a very close connection with BY207. I have 21 FGC32004 matches

SNPs are more reliable than STRs. STRs are most useful in conjunction with SNPs but aren't more reliable by themselves. Your connection to the BY207 is more distant than to FGC32004. The connection to BY207 isn't as close as your connection to matches positive for FGC32004 since you are negative for BY207.

Nqp15hhu
07-01-2020, 12:10 AM
SNPs are more reliable than STRs. STRs are most useful in conjunction with SNPs but aren't more reliable by themselves. Your connection to the BY207 is more distant than to FGC32004. The connection to BY207 isn't as close as your connection to matches positive for FGC32004 since you are negative for BY207.

How does he share 109 markers with me though?? 🤔

FionnSneachta
07-01-2020, 07:18 AM
How does he share 109 markers with me though?? ��

As Robert Casey said, BY207 YSTR matches are just random YSTR overlap and are not important.

Nqp15hhu
07-01-2020, 01:29 PM
I keep coming across this Cumming in Tyrone Bowes case studies maps. Page 10.

https://www.keepandshare.com/doc/8251693/wilson-a-scottish-origenes-ydna-case-study-dr-tyrone-bowes-161019-for-website-signed-pdf-1-8-meg?da=y

See that it is beside Ferguson? I wonder if it that could be where they are from?

Peter MacDonald
07-01-2020, 02:05 PM
Here is a quick summary of my experience combining Y DNA along with traditional paper/document research. I didn't go too deep into detail, just hitting that major wave tops of my experience.

I started using genetics in 2010 to assist with my MacDonald paternal ancestry. Up until this point I had my line traced back to my 5x Great Grandfather Martin MacDonald who was born in 1755 and passed away in 1836 in Knoydart, Nova Scotia (the area he settled in 1785, which he is attributed to naming after where he emigrated from in Scotland). The results of my first Y DNA test indicated that my paternal line was not of the Clan Donald Chiefly lines and I would have to search elsewhere for the origins of direct paternal line. Overlapping with the timeframe which I received my results I became aware of Martin MacDonald (1755-1836) being included in genealogical charts from the Glengarry, Ontario area of Canada. Further to the knowledge of these charts it was also discovered that Martin’s son John MacDonald died in the Glengarry, Ontario area in 1858 where his death was recorded by the St Columbian Roman Catholic Church and also by a priest (Father John MacDonald) who kept genealogical records of Scottish emigrants. In Father John’s diary, the death of John MacDonald records him as coming from Nova Scotia and being the son of Martin, son of Donald, son of John, son of Angus.

Heading back to the genealogical charts .... Although the charts listed the names of ancestors, genealogists (both professional and amateur) where unable to answer basic questions pertaining to Clan Iain Ruadh, such as an overall history of the Clan, timeline or geographic origins. One major issue with the charts showed the Clan Chiefs to be of the Haplogroup R1A, where I was R1B. After playing around with this idea of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh, I eventually wrote off my Family’s inclusion onto these charts. I believed at the time Martin MacDonald’s mentioned as a mistake and/or possibly fabricated and continued my searching for my paternal ancestry elsewhere, even though I did have paternal Y DNA matches from the Glengarry area of Canada (with genealogies not showing a linkage to my paternal line).

My belief of not belonging to Clan Iain Ruadh was put to rest in February 2017 when I received an email from a MacDonell who had a Y DNA match with me and upon further testing we were able to determine we were both positive for the SNP BY154, which indicated a fairly recent (in genealogical terms) common paternal ancestor. Garry and I had not shared any type of research, however both of our Families had traditions of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh. Any remote disbelieve of descending from Clan Iain Ruadh melted away upon receiving a gravestone picture from Mr. MacDonell of the Auchterawe Roman Catholic burial ground in Inverness, Scotland. The gravestone belongs to his 3x Great Grandfather John MacDonell, on the gravestone (which was erected by John MacDonell’s son Captain Ewen Macdonell) “..John MacDonell of Clan Iain Ruadh..”. This connection was the motivation I needed to keep my research going.

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My research had another two breaks with two testers from the Glengarry, Ontario area who had family traditions and paper trails of paternal descent from Clan Ian Ruadh. Both testers have matched closely to myself and other persons who are BY154+ and have genealogies that actually appear to fit into the older genealogical charts from the Glengayy, Ontario area I previously mentioned. One of these tester's ancestors (a father and son) where Loyalists who petitioned for Land in the Glengarry area. In their petitions, the son Duncan McDonell states that he was “from Glen Morrison, Late of Tryon County, N.Y. Province...came to Canada in 1780”

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The father, John McDonell states at the time of the petition he was from “...Lot 17, Cornwall Township, N. Johnson, Late of Tryon County, N. York Province...”

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This is an area for further research, perhaps the family when in Scotland relocated from Knoydart to Glenmoriston, however it is most likely that the was originally from Glenmoriston. Important to note that there is a Clan Iain Ruadh MacDonald Sept that originated in Glenmoriston. This past summer (2019) I was on a family trip to Scotland and arranged to be shown around Knoydart by the Knoydart Ranger Mrs. Dowel and by Mr. Wilson.

A side bar:
Martin was the son of Donald, son of John, son of Angus. Luckily for me, Martin was a very uncommon name among the MacDonalds, which made my research less difficult.
Two records of the Scottish Privy Council that are of great interest to me due to the location of Knoydart and the first name Martin associated with the MacDonalds of this area are:
"In the Record of the Scottish Privy Council there is a 1628 record that contains events involving three brother in Knoydart: Martin, Donald and Angus.

Next we come to 1628, in which year an action was pursued by: - Thomas Fraser of Streachin
Donald McGillemichell in Mureton
Alexander Cowy there
Donald McEane McWilliam there William McFrenshe there
against:
................
................
Martin McEane VcRorie Donald McEane VcRorie
Angus McEane VcRorie ......"
In another entry pertaining to this matter only Martin and Donald are mentioned with some further information provided:
Marine McEane VcRorie VcEane Roy in Knoydert Donald McEane Roy VcEane Roy in Killastardertach

Denis Rixson’s book, Knoydart: A history and noticed a chart of the various namings of Knoydart’s Settlements. Of the ones that most likely to be connected with the place name “Killstarderach”, two locations caught my attention:
"Knoydart’s Settlements
1637 Charter: Kelist
Modern Name: Kylesknoydart Canada List: Kiles Knodartach Census Returns: Kyles"
Through these records, I felt that the “Knoydert” mentioned in the Privy Council Record was an anglicization of the Gaelic place name of Niegart.
End sidebar

ALSO!!!!!! I should mention that while in Arisaig during the weekend of the Arisaig Highland games, I had the great fortunate of randomly being in the same place as BY154+ Group member (Mr. Gillis) and his wife. Talk about a small world!!!

The next day we were heading to Knoydart and Mr. Gillis agreed to come along. One thing that was learned on that trip was that there were once a lot of Gillis across the narrow from Kyles Knoydart in Morar.......

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So back to how I met Mr. Wilson. I hired the Knoydart Ranger Land Rover to get me around Knoydart to visit both Niegart and Kyles Knoydart. Unfortunately (but as it turns out not so), Kyles Knoydart was inaccessible, but I was advised that Mr. Wilson could provide a boat tour to take me to Kyles Knoydart. I relayed my personal interest in both location due to my genealogical research. Iain Insisted on meeting us at the edge of his property (Inverguseran) to show us around. So, you could imagine my surprise when Mr. Wilson brought me to a burial ground on his property, which I was totally unaware of its existence. And even more so when he brought me to a graveslab for a D. MacDonald of Kyles Knoydart who died in 1805. This could potentially be the resting place of my 6x Great Grandfather Donald MacDonald.

In October 2019 I had a Y DNA match with a P. McDonald from Edmonton. His family was from Glengarry Ontario and lived what is locally referred to as the “Brown House”. I was in Kingston for work training in September and October and was planning on heading to the Glengarry, Ontario area for one of the weekends, the Wednesday prior to visiting I received P. McDonalds match and corresponded with him. That weekend I found the Brown House and went over to introduce myself. The person living there was actually descended from the same ancestor as Patrick, luckily, she was the Family historian, she knew of Patrick’s Father and that he moved out west but that was it. Pretty amazing that a DNA test led me to that house. Both McDonald lines have taken the Big Y700, and Y111 results indicate a clear match. Their family line is known as the “Taylor” MacDonalds who descend from a Donald “Taylor” MacDonald who it appears might be a brother to my 5x Great Grandfather Martin MacDonald (will have to wait until the New Year to confirm this through testing).

Through SNP testing of families with know Clan Iain Ruadh traditions on the older chart below has been proved to some degree. The ancestry lines in green have been determined to be closely related with advanced SNP testing. Hopefully more direct paternal descendants of Clan Iain Ruadh will be discovered in the near future:

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While I have had the opportunity to connect with my MacDonald kin and have been forming a picture of to whom and how we are related to one another through a combination of traditional paper trails and advance Y DNA testing, there is still much more research to be done.....(still waiting on two important Big Y700 Tests to be completed).