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SonoftheSea
06-29-2020, 06:15 AM
Is the prevalence of E-V13 in the southeastern Europe due to ENF or a more recent North African admixture? As far as I know ENF were predominately G2a or J2. It doesn’t look like most Greeks or Balkans have a considerable amount of North African admixture though. Much higher in parts of western Spain where E is not as common. Maybe it stems from an older source?

Scythoslav
07-07-2020, 01:16 PM
It’s neither. E-V13 came from basal E-M78. The oldest E-M78 samples are found in Mesolithic North Africa. So far no samples of E-M78 were found in ancient levant or Anatolia. So it can’t be EEF. It can’t come from anywhere in recent times either because it’s found in Europe at ~8,000 years old. Most likely it came from Mesolithic Capsian culture migration to Southern Europe.

SonoftheSea
07-13-2020, 12:45 AM
Thank you. I was unaware of the presence in Europe during the mesolithic, but I figured an older source was probable. I knew hg E was present at low levels in some EEF and mistakenly thought it was brought with them. Probably just came from mixing with mesolithic peoples of southeastern Europe

J Man
07-13-2020, 12:52 AM
Thank you. I was unaware of the presence in Europe during the mesolithic, but I figured an older source was probable. I knew hg E was present at low levels in some EEF and mistakenly thought it was brought with them. Probably just came from mixing with mesolithic peoples of southeastern Europe

There are no E samples from Mesolithic period Europe so far.

SonoftheSea
07-13-2020, 01:21 AM
Apologies, I misread. So it seems it probably entered Europe around the same time as the farmers but from a different migration

Kelmendasi
07-13-2020, 03:48 PM
It’s neither. E-V13 came from basal E-M78. The oldest E-M78 samples are found in Mesolithic North Africa. So far no samples of E-M78 were found in ancient levant or Anatolia. So it can’t be EEF. It can’t come from anywhere in recent times either because it’s found in Europe at ~8,000 years old. Most likely it came from Mesolithic Capsian culture migration to Southern Europe.
It should be mentioned that E-V13 didn't diverge from basal M78*, but rather it branched off of M78>Z1919>L618. E-L618 has been found in two Neolithic samples from Europe; I3948 from the Dalmatian coast of Croatia and belonging to the Cardium Pottery culture, and sample I1900 from the Neolithic Lengyel culture of Hungary. A couple of M78+ samples from eastern France and western Germany, belonging to the Neolithic Michelsberg culture, have also been discovered and these may in fact also be L618+.

Judging by aDNA, it does seem that L618 may have entered Europe earlier on from North Africa, however I think we still need more aDNA from the southern Levant or Anatolia to be completely sure. It should also be noted that we have yet to find E among Mesolithic Europeans.

Johane Derite
07-13-2020, 10:07 PM
Judging by aDNA, it does seem that L618 may have entered Europe earlier on from North Africa, however I think we still need more aDNA from the southern Levant or Anatolia to be completely sure. It should also be noted that we have yet to find E among Mesolithic Europeans.

Which aDNA do you think suggests L618 came from North Africa before EEF? The recent paper on Neolothic shows Cardium came from east (older sites). Do you think it is pre cardium?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eca9g-aWAAIjomD.png

From:

"Climate shaped how Neolithic farmers and European hunter-gatherers interacted after a major slowdown from 6,100 BCE to 4,500 BCE"

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-0897-7

Aspar
07-13-2020, 11:26 PM
Judging by aDNA, it does seem that L618 may have entered Europe earlier on from North Africa, however I think we still need more aDNA from the southern Levant or Anatolia to be completely sure. It should also be noted that we have yet to find E among Mesolithic Europeans.

Except there never was an archaeologically attested migration from North Africa directly into Europe when the E samples across Europe show up.
Furthermore, there isn't any E samples found in Mesolithic Europe either but they show up in Neolithic Europe exactly at the time of the advance of the Anatolian Farmers or more specifically the Ceramic Anatolian Farmers.
The first Aceramic Anatolian Farmers from Boncuklu were shown as per the paper to be derived in the greatest part from the Anatolian HG and to a small part from the CHG and Iran_N.
The Ceramic Anatolian Farmers on the other hand were modeled as a two way mixture between these Aceramic Anatolian Farmers and PPN Levant. Exactly in these Ceramic AF aka Barcin we find an E-M35 sample(Bar11).
Not to mention that there isn't any African dna whatsoever detected either in Mesolithic or the Neolithic samples of Europe but only shows up as a very small and distant signal in the Neolithic samples and it probably comes from the PPN Levant component in the Anatolian Farmers. These PPN Levantines on the other hand can be modeled as a two way mix between Natufians and Anatolian HG. And it's no surprise that in PPN culture in Jordan we find a large rate of E samples among them one which is derived for SNP's on E-M78 level.

You see, every level of the process(archaeologically and aDNA) of entering into Europe with the ENF is covered for E-L618, from the Natufians to PPN Levant to Ceramic AF and finally EEF.

So, what is the chance for a direct entry from North Africa into Europe in a situation where we haven't detected African autosomal dna(but there is a large incidence of E samples exactly showing up in the Neolithic) in any significant amount in Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe or there isn't any archaeologically attested migration but hypothetically these North Africans somehow mysteriously managed to infiltrate Europe and even to be direct ancestors of E-V13 rather than the Farmers coming from Levant and Anatolia??

I say it's very low, almost zero and it will be forgotten ones we have more high resolution samples from PPN Levant.

Hawk
07-14-2020, 06:09 AM
It is most likely via Middle East. There is no L618 yet found in Spain or Sicily <= the most hypothetical routes.

Scythoslav
07-17-2020, 01:51 PM
Except there never was an archaeologically attested migration from North Africa directly into Europe when the E samples across Europe show up.
Furthermore, there isn't any E samples found in Mesolithic Europe either but they show up in Neolithic Europe exactly at the time of the advance of the Anatolian Farmers or more specifically the Ceramic Anatolian Farmers.
The first Aceramic Anatolian Farmers from Boncuklu were shown as per the paper to be derived in the greatest part from the Anatolian HG and to a small part from the CHG and Iran_N.
The Ceramic Anatolian Farmers on the other hand were modeled as a two way mixture between these Aceramic Anatolian Farmers and PPN Levant. Exactly in these Ceramic AF aka Barcin we find an E-M35 sample(Bar11).
Not to mention that there isn't any African dna whatsoever detected either in Mesolithic or the Neolithic samples of Europe but only shows up as a very small and distant signal in the Neolithic samples and it probably comes from the PPN Levant component in the Anatolian Farmers. These PPN Levantines on the other hand can be modeled as a two way mix between Natufians and Anatolian HG. And it's no surprise that in PPN culture in Jordan we find a large rate of E samples among them one which is derived for SNP's on E-M78 level.

You see, every level of the process(archaeologically and aDNA) of entering into Europe with the ENF is covered for E-L618, from the Natufians to PPN Levant to Ceramic AF and finally EEF.

So, what is the chance for a direct entry from North Africa into Europe in a situation where we haven't detected African autosomal dna(but there is a large incidence of E samples exactly showing up in the Neolithic) in any significant amount in Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe or there isn't any archaeologically attested migration but hypothetically these North Africans somehow mysteriously managed to infiltrate Europe and even to be direct ancestors of E-V13 rather than the Farmers coming from Levant and Anatolia??

I say it's very low, almost zero and it will be forgotten ones we have more high resolution samples from PPN Levant.


Every process is covered for entering with ENF? Yet not a single reliable sample of E-M78 was ever found in ancient Anatolia or levant. LOL

The majority of Ceramic Anatolian farmers were G. The Levantine E that they brought into Europe was downstream E-Z827
and a sample of that was found among cucuteni culture in Europe. That E-M35 sample in Anatolia if tested downstream would also be E-Z827. Like I said in my other posts the only way to prove that E-V13 came from ENF is to find that it was actually common in Ancient Anatolia or Levant. You can’t tell me it came from somewhere that it is completely non-existent in.

Until then the science on this is not settled so don’t make ridiculous claims like “every process is covered...”

Scythoslav
07-17-2020, 02:14 PM
It should be mentioned that E-V13 didn't diverge from basal M78*, but rather it branched off of M78>Z1919>L618. E-L618 has been found in two Neolithic samples from Europe; I3948 from the Dalmatian coast of Croatia and belonging to the Cardium Pottery culture, and sample I1900 from the Neolithic Lengyel culture of Hungary. A couple of M78+ samples from eastern France and western Germany, belonging to the Neolithic Michelsberg culture, have also been discovered and these may in fact also be L618+.

Judging by aDNA, it does seem that L618 may have entered Europe earlier on from North Africa, however I think we still need more aDNA from the southern Levant or Anatolia to be completely sure. It should also be noted that we have yet to find E among Mesolithic Europeans.


Yeah, but those european Neolithic samples don’t really tell us anything about the origin, only that it was present in Europe. Kind of like I2a being present in high numbers in certain Neolithic cultures. Doesn’t mean they were Neolithic lineages.

So we have to look outside of Europe to find the closest samples and build a road from there. So far Anatolia and Levant doesn’t seem to be the most probable route for any E-M78 derived European Y-DNA because of its lack of presence there. Currently completely absent. Whether it was ever there can’t say for sure. But I can say for sure that it was very rare even if present due to the current samples.

Aspar
07-17-2020, 02:49 PM
Every process is covered for entering with ENF? Yet not a single reliable sample of E-M78 was ever found in ancient Anatolia or levant. LOL

The majority of Ceramic Anatolian farmers were G. The Levantine E that they brought into Europe was downstream E-Z827
and a sample of that was found among cucuteni culture in Europe. That E-M35 sample in Anatolia if tested downstream would also be E-Z827. Like I said in my other posts the only way to prove that E-V13 came from ENF is to find that it was actually common in Ancient Anatolia or Levant. You can’t tell me it came from somewhere that it is completely non-existent in.

Until then the science on this is not settled so don’t make ridiculous claims like “every process is covered...”

I find your 'The Apricity' style of communication a little bit aggressive but nevertheless I will give you an answer as politely as possible.

I think that your first argument of
not a single reliable sample of E-M78 was ever found in ancient Anatolia or levant is not true.
As I pointed out in my previous post we do have a reliable sample from PPNB and the sample in question I1710 is also included in Davidski's ancient sample spreadsheet. You can check it out yourself if you please.
The sample is positive for at least two SNP's that are on E-M78 level and unfortunately there is no readings for M78 but I have no doubt if the coverage of the data was much higher then I1710 would turn positive for M78 as well.

Your second argument
The Levantine E that they brought into Europe was downstream E-Z827 is again false because the Anatolian Farmers didn't bring only the lineage in question you are suggesting they brought but also the direct ancestor of E-V13, E-L618.
If you have time, you can check I3948 in Davidski's spreadsheet. It's the Cardial Neolithic sample from Croatia positive for E-L618, the lineage directly ancestral to E-V13.
It's dated to around 6000 BC, exactly when the Anatolian Farmers just entered Europe.
You can try model the sample with the rest of the ancient samples or even better, read the paper that brought light to that ancient sample.
The sample is perfectly Anatolian Farmer like, not even an inch of Mesolithic European ancestry or even some Taforalt like ancestry.

And it's not only this Neolithic Balkan sample, there are at least two more samples unearthed in close vicinity of I3948 that were shown to belong to E-L618, one in the Sopot and the other in the Lengyel culture in Hungary. All of them are perfectly Anatolian Farmer like.
The only positive sample for E-V13(that is not a direct ancestors of the modern E-V13 people) was a sample from the Cardial culture in Spain which had close affinities and is directly descended from the Cardial Culture further east in the Balkans.

So what are the other options do you suggest and what is the other evidence we have for E-V13 if no E samples to date are found in Mesolithic Europe.
Plus no Taforalt admixture and affinities(which would be very obvious if it was present) were observed in any of the samples in question. If I3948 who is dated to 6000 BC at the beginning of the migration of the Anatolian Farmers had such affinities Taforalt dna would of been visible but there are no such affinities. Neither do the other E-L618 and E-V13 ancient samples.

Your third argument
the only way to prove that E-V13 came from ENF is to find that it was actually common in Ancient Anatolia or Levant is out of question because E-V13 will never be found in those places. It's actual forming years as per YFULL, plus it's modern distribution and diversity points to a formation in Europe. If anyone migrated to Europe it's his ancestor E-L618.

As I said, more data from PPN Levant will resolve this ones and for all but I am quite sure for one thing, no North African direct connection will ever appear for E-L618.

I believe this is crystal clear, at least for me...

Scythoslav
07-17-2020, 08:17 PM
I find your 'The Apricity' style of communication a little bit aggressive but nevertheless I will give you an answer as politely as possible.

I think that your first argument of is not true.
As I pointed out in my previous post we do have a reliable sample from PPNB and the sample in question I1710 is also included in Davidski's ancient sample spreadsheet. You can check it out yourself if you please.
The sample is positive for at least two SNP's that are on E-M78 level and unfortunately there is no readings for M78 but I have no doubt if the coverage of the data was much higher then I1710 would turn positive for M78 as well.

Your second argument is again false because the Anatolian Farmers didn't bring only the lineage in question you are suggesting they brought but also the direct ancestor of E-V13, E-L618.
If you have time, you can check I3948 in Davidski's spreadsheet. It's the Cardial Neolithic sample from Croatia positive for E-L618, the lineage directly ancestral to E-V13.
It's dated to around 6000 BC, exactly when the Anatolian Farmers just entered Europe.
You can try model the sample with the rest of the ancient samples or even better, read the paper that brought light to that ancient sample.
The sample is perfectly Anatolian Farmer like, not even an inch of Mesolithic European ancestry or even some Taforalt like ancestry.

And it's not only this Neolithic Balkan sample, there are at least two more samples unearthed in close vicinity of I3948 that were shown to belong to E-L618, one in the Sopot and the other in the Lengyel culture in Hungary. All of them are perfectly Anatolian Farmer like.
The only positive sample for E-V13(that is not a direct ancestors of the modern E-V13 people) was a sample from the Cardial culture in Spain which had close affinities and is directly descended from the Cardial Culture further east in the Balkans.

So what are the other options do you suggest and what is the other evidence we have for E-V13 if no E samples to date are found in Mesolithic Europe.
Plus no Taforalt admixture and affinities(which would be very obvious if it was present) were observed in any of the samples in question. If I3948 who is dated to 6000 BC at the beginning of the migration of the Anatolian Farmers had such affinities Taforalt dna would of been visible but there are no such affinities. Neither do the other E-L618 and E-V13 ancient samples.

Your third argument is out of question because E-V13 will never be found in those places. It's actual forming years as per YFULL, plus it's modern distribution and diversity points to a formation in Europe. If anyone migrated to Europe it's his ancestor E-L618.

As I said, more data from PPN Levant will resolve this ones and for all but I am quite sure for one thing, no North African direct connection will ever appear for E-L618.

I believe this is crystal clear, at least for me...

Sorry not meaning to be rude. Anyways to the points.

"The sample is positive for at least two SNP's that are on E-M78 level and unfortunately there is no readings for M78 but I have no doubt if the coverage of the data was much higher then I1710 would turn positive for M78 as well."

^^ That makes it an unreliable sample to me. Again even if it turned out to be E-M78(which I doubt it will) that is one sample out of how many? Proving E-M78 was rare in Levant and Anatolia.

Another point is: If E is a neolithic farmer lineage why is E-V13 (or any E) found at such low almost non existent levels among the main Neolithic farmer cultures? Out of 69 samples only one turned out to be E-V13?

The proposed E coming from Natufian admixture into Anatolia and this is how E-V13 spread into Europe also is very low chance given that all Natufian samples turned out to be another clade and not ancestors to E-V13.

This is why I'm getting pissed off when you say its clear to you like there is tons of evidence supporting what you're saying. THERE JUST ISN'T.

Point 2: "You can try model the sample with the rest of the ancient samples or even better, read the paper that brought light to that ancient sample.
The sample is perfectly Anatolian Farmer like, not even an inch of Mesolithic European ancestry or even some Taforalt like ancestry.

And it's not only this Neolithic Balkan sample, there are at least two more samples unearthed in close vicinity of I3948 that were shown to belong to E-L618, one in the Sopot and the other in the Lengyel culture in Hungary. All of them are perfectly Anatolian Farmer like.
The only positive sample for E-V13(that is not a direct ancestors of the modern E-V13 people) was a sample from the Cardial culture in Spain which had close affinities and is directly descended from the Cardial Culture further east in the Balkans.

So what are the other options do you suggest and what is the other evidence we have for E-V13 if no E samples to date are found in Mesolithic Europe.
Plus no Taforalt admixture and affinities"

If E-M78 entered Europe in the Mesolithic how would there still be decent Taforalt admixture 3-4000 years later? They would have been mixing with the local Europeans for thousands of years. And my theory is that this wasn't a huge culture. It was just fisherman/hunter gatherer culture living all along the banks of the Med sea scattered throughout Southern Europe. This explains E-V13 being so rare in Neolithic farmers it just cant be called a neolithic lineage when it was 1-3 samples out of 69 and it explains that 7,000-8000 year old Spanish E-V13. Even if that lineage itself is dead and not ancestral to modern E-V13 my theory is that they came from the same culture.

As well as E-V13 being present in Cardial culture means nothing. It couldn't have been assimilated in Europe? Says nothing about origin. And until E-V13 ancestor is found in Cardial Culture homeland then nothing can be said about this relationship.

Hawk
07-17-2020, 08:57 PM
There is absolutely no chronological order of archaeological evidences that farming was formed originally in Anatolia, it was brought as an idea from Levant and prior to that from Nile valley where you find evidences from grain collection from Mesolithic cultures there (to add chert mining to it as well, both Paleolithic and Mesolithic, and chert mining was crucial for latter development of farming). It's absolutely not far fetched to think a lineage of E-M78 might have lived between Levant and Anatolia.

Aspar
07-18-2020, 07:44 PM
Sorry not meaning to be rude. Anyways to the points.

"The sample is positive for at least two SNP's that are on E-M78 level and unfortunately there is no readings for M78 but I have no doubt if the coverage of the data was much higher then I1710 would turn positive for M78 as well."

^^ That makes it an unreliable sample to me. Again even if it turned out to be E-M78(which I doubt it will) that is one sample out of how many? Proving E-M78 was rare in Levant and Anatolia.

Another point is: If E is a neolithic farmer lineage why is E-V13 (or any E) found at such low almost non existent levels among the main Neolithic farmer cultures? Out of 69 samples only one turned out to be E-V13?

The proposed E coming from Natufian admixture into Anatolia and this is how E-V13 spread into Europe also is very low chance given that all Natufian samples turned out to be another clade and not ancestors to E-V13.

This is why I'm getting pissed off when you say its clear to you like there is tons of evidence supporting what you're saying. THERE JUST ISN'T.

Point 2: "You can try model the sample with the rest of the ancient samples or even better, read the paper that brought light to that ancient sample.
The sample is perfectly Anatolian Farmer like, not even an inch of Mesolithic European ancestry or even some Taforalt like ancestry.

And it's not only this Neolithic Balkan sample, there are at least two more samples unearthed in close vicinity of I3948 that were shown to belong to E-L618, one in the Sopot and the other in the Lengyel culture in Hungary. All of them are perfectly Anatolian Farmer like.
The only positive sample for E-V13(that is not a direct ancestors of the modern E-V13 people) was a sample from the Cardial culture in Spain which had close affinities and is directly descended from the Cardial Culture further east in the Balkans.

So what are the other options do you suggest and what is the other evidence we have for E-V13 if no E samples to date are found in Mesolithic Europe.
Plus no Taforalt admixture and affinities"

If E-M78 entered Europe in the Mesolithic how would there still be decent Taforalt admixture 3-4000 years later? They would have been mixing with the local Europeans for thousands of years. And my theory is that this wasn't a huge culture. It was just fisherman/hunter gatherer culture living all along the banks of the Med sea scattered throughout Southern Europe. This explains E-V13 being so rare in Neolithic farmers it just cant be called a neolithic lineage when it was 1-3 samples out of 69 and it explains that 7,000-8000 year old Spanish E-V13. Even if that lineage itself is dead and not ancestral to modern E-V13 my theory is that they came from the same culture.

As well as E-V13 being present in Cardial culture means nothing. It couldn't have been assimilated in Europe? Says nothing about origin. And until E-V13 ancestor is found in Cardial Culture homeland then nothing can be said about this relationship.

At this point you are not only giving false facts but also contradicting yourself.

First, you are giving false facts about the Natufians saying that all of them were positive for a clade that is not ancestral of E-V13. Here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/y-snp-calls-from-the-ancient-near-east/) you can see a list of ancient samples in the Near East among them the Natufians as well. It's the well known blogger Genetiker who compiled these results. It's evident that two of the Natufians are indeed positive for a branch that is not ancestral(E1b1b1b2) to E-V13 but three of them respectively E1b1b1(M35) and E1b1b(M215) stop at these levels with no readings downstream however these markers ARE ancestors of E-V13. So we don't know further down the line where these three Natufians end up and are they derived for M78, the next marker down the line to E-V13. However you decided to ignore the fact that a sample from PPNB, a culture directly derived from the Natufian one turned out negative for all non-ancestral E-V13 branches downstream of E-M35 and positive for snp's at E-M78 level and call it not reliable???

Second, you are contradicting yourself by doubting the very obvious connection of the ancestors of E-V13 with the Mesolithic and Neolithic Levant and E-V13's direct origin from the Neolithic Farmers of Anatolia and Europe simply because it was rare in those places and cultures, your words*("Again even if it turned out to be E-M78(which I doubt it will) that is one sample out of how many? Proving E-M78 was rare in Levant and Anatolia."; "E-V13 being so rare in Neolithic farmers it just cant be called a neolithic lineage when it was 1-3 samples out of 69") and at the same time you are bringing forward a dubious theory about a pre Neolithic Farmer origin of E-V13 although there is neither one E sample(not only derived for E-V13 or some of it's ancestors but any kind of E sample) that appears in pre Neolithic Europe HG or in the Neolithic HG of Europe. As a matter of fact we do have Mesolithic samples from all across Europe and from a Croatian island as well and again no E sample nor any detectable admix from a Taforalt like population. Plus you decided to ignore the facts that three E-L618 samples perfectly Barcin like are found in Neolithic Europe with at least one dating to the very beginning of the Farmers's migration into Europe with 100% Barcin like dna. This alone tells you that this Cardial sample from Croatia didn't have any European Hunter Gatherer ancestors and at the same time is positive for a clade directly upstream of E-V13. I explained in my previous posts(if you bother to read them) that the Barcin population was modeled as overwhelmingly Boncuklu like(AAF) with a minor Levanine Neolithic component as per the paper (http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/10/016477). In that regard it's clear why the E samples were overwhelmed by G samples but that alone is not an argument against E-V13's Neolithic Farmer origin with further connection to the Farmers from Anatolia and the Levant.

At this point I can't take your theory seriously, neither from a point of view of aDNA(both autosomal and y-dna as there is no any Taforalt like admix nor any E samples in Mesolithic Europe) nor from a chronological point of view(simply put all E samples show up during the Neolithic) nor from a cultural point of view(all ancient E samples including the three E-L618 and the one E-V13 were from cultures that were founded by the Anatolian Farmers with no previous connections to the earlier Mesolithic people of Europe and these samples as demonstrated by the first two points MOST certainly weren't assimilated European Mesolithic descendants). Period

Scythoslav
07-18-2020, 09:29 PM
[QUOTE=Aspar;686379]At this point you are not only giving false facts but also contradicting yourself.



"At this point I can't take your theory seriously, neither from a point of view of aDNA"

I dont need you to take me seriously. Provide at least one full complete sample of E-M78 from Levant or Anatolia. Until then what you're saying means nothing and you're still stuck in 2001 theories.

Aspar
07-18-2020, 10:09 PM
I dont need you to take me seriously. Provide at least one full complete sample of E-M78 from Levant or Anatolia. Until then what you're saying means nothing and you're still stuck in 2001 theories.

I don't need to provide you, such samples are already there in the Levant, waiting to be unearthed and sampled. But why specifically M78? We already have E-M35 samples in the Natufian culture, PPNB and Barcin. You see, it's much easier to fill up the gap from E-M35 to E-L618 and E-V13 who were already found in a Neolithic Farmer context in Europe and connect the dots with what you call "2001 theories"!

It's all there already, I've mentioned all the connecting dots and it's up to you if you can or if you want to absorb these thoughts.

Then again following your "2020 theory" and the Mesolithic origin of E-V13 that somehow was transplanted by ancient North Africans into Europe fails to fill the gap because there is no gap but a big and massive hole(no any E samples whatsoever in Mesolithic Europe up to date).

Therefore you are pushing for something that is not supported by anything, the least by aDNA. That's why I don't understand why are you asking me to provide you with E-M78 samples from the Levant because such a question can hit you as a bumerang and can ask you the same thing, can you provide E-M78 samples from Mesolithic Europe? Or even worse can you provide E-M35 or any E samples in pre-Neolithic Europe?

I guess you can't...

Scythoslav
07-18-2020, 10:43 PM
I don't need to provide you, such samples are already there in the Levant, waiting to be unearthed and sampled. But why specifically M78? We already have E-M35 samples in the Natufian culture, PPNB and Barcin. You see, it's much easier to fill up the gap from E-M35 to E-L618 and E-V13 who were already found in a Neolithic Farmer context in Europe and connect the dots with what you call "2001 theories"!

It's all there already, I've mentioned all the connecting dots and it's up to you if you can or if you want to absorb these thoughts.

Then again following your "2020 theory" and the Mesolithic origin of E-V13 that somehow was transplanted by ancient North Africans into Europe fails to fill the gap because there is no gap but a big and massive hole(no any E samples whatsoever in Mesolithic Europe up to date).

Therefore you are pushing for something that is not supported by anything, the least by aDNA. That's why I don't understand why are you asking me to provide you with E-M78 samples from the Levant because such a question can hit you as a bumerang and can ask you the same thing, can you provide E-M78 samples from Mesolithic Europe? Or even worse can you provide E-M35 or any E samples in pre-Neolithic Europe?

I guess you can't...


Lol so your belief is that E-M35 sample in Barcin is Basal E-M35 or those Natufian are basal E-M215? You do understand how old those basal clades are right? They predate natufians or even iberomaurusians. Those samples were just not tested downstream because they are not FULL QUALITY SAMPLES. Have they been tested they would have been downstream E- Z827 because that is all we found in Levant so far. You are trying to cover up basic facts with word salad it might work on other people but it doesn’t on me. I say once again and for the final time there have been ZERO quality E-M78 in Levant or Anatolia, but for some reason they are found as the major haplo among iberomaursians. Weird isn’t it.

As far as proving my theory. There is exactly as much evidence for it as there is for Neolithic farmers bringing E-M78 to Europe which is 0 lol.

Aspar
07-19-2020, 04:49 AM
Lol so your belief is that E-M35 sample in Barcin is Basal E-M35 or those Natufian are basal E-M215? You do understand how old those basal clades are right? They predate natufians or even iberomaurusians. Those samples were just not tested downstream because they are not FULL QUALITY SAMPLES. Have they been tested they would have been downstream E- Z827 because that is all we found in Levant so far. You are trying to cover up basic facts with word salad it might work on other people but it doesn’t on me. I say once again and for the final time there have been ZERO quality E-M78 in Levant or Anatolia, but for some reason they are found as the major haplo among iberomaursians. Weird isn’t it.

As far as proving my theory. There is exactly as much evidence for it as there is for Neolithic farmers bringing E-M78 to Europe which is 0 lol.

Once again, if you bothered to read my "word salad" you would have picked up all the arguments and facts which you don't and you would have understand that I never said we are dealing with basal E-M35 but those samples are not of great quality, too less SNP's to determine a marker further down of E-M35.

At least one sample from PPNB I1710 (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1710/) proves you yet again wrong because this sample wasn't E-Z827 but now I am getting repetitive.

Constantly giving false arguments and contradicting yourself is bringing the quality of the discussion down.

But I will not feed you anymore. Let's wait for those Mesolithic European E-M78 and E-L618 of yours. Who knows, they might pop out on some Croatian island where they were fishing and sailing along the coast as you say...

Scythoslav
07-19-2020, 02:40 PM
Once again, if you bothered to read my "word salad" you would have picked up all the arguments and facts which you don't and you would have understand that I never said we are dealing with basal E-M35 but those samples are not of great quality, too less SNP's to determine a marker further down of E-M35.

At least one sample from PPNB I1710 (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1710/) proves you yet again wrong because this sample wasn't E-Z827 but now I am getting repetitive.

Constantly giving false arguments and contradicting yourself is bringing the quality of the discussion down.

But I will not feed you anymore. Let's wait for those Mesolithic European E-M78 and E-L618 of yours. Who knows, they might pop out on some Croatian island where they were fishing and sailing along the coast as you say...

Like I said that PPNB sample is incomplete and unreliable. And if I’m right these samples will pop up all over Southern Europe not just Croatia. But no reason to argue we just have to wait for new samples whether they pop up in Europe or in levant and Anatolia. So far nothing is “clear” though.

Aspar
07-20-2020, 04:17 PM
Like I said that PPNB sample is incomplete and unreliable. And if I’m right these samples will pop up all over Southern Europe not just Croatia. But no reason to argue we just have to wait for new samples whether they pop up in Europe or in levant and Anatolia. So far nothing is “clear” though.

Under which criteria I1710 is unreliable?
The sample is perfectly reliable, I have the BAM file on my computer.
It is more reliable than many other ancient samples who don't even fit the bill for a basic haplogroup prediction. Just because the sample doesn't have reads for M78 doesn't make it unreliable. Having no reads means we can't say whether the sample is ancestral or derived for that particular marker. However what we know for sure is that this sample is negative for E-Z827 and that alone is sufficient to downplay your claim that all PPN samples turned out E-Z827.
Pls inform yourself better before making such claims.

I am not here to force my theories to anyone but the facts are clear, there is no E sample up to date in Mesolithic Europe nor there is a detectable Iberomaurusian dna among the Mesolithic Europeans.
We will see what the future sampling brings on the table.