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Imesmouden
07-03-2020, 11:22 AM
After a new E-M81 basal shown in the yfull tree

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M81/

some people start claiming that E-M81 has been originated in the levant since the basal sample is of a negev bedouin

how much is this scientifically accurate?

RCO
07-03-2020, 01:02 PM
One swallow doesn't make a summer. Find more and that's a point.

RagingBull
07-03-2020, 02:47 PM
One swallow doesn't make a summer. Find more and that's a point.
The evidence is compelling enough, you can either you refute it or accept it.

Ruderico
07-03-2020, 03:13 PM
I wouldn't call it 'compelling enough' it's only one sample, and thus has little statistical relevance. Maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong, we need more basal samples.

RagingBull
07-03-2020, 05:29 PM
I wouldn't call it 'compelling enough' it's only one sample, and thus has little statistical relevance. Maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong, we need more basal samples.
It's not a matter of opinion. The Bedouin subclade of haplogroup E-M81 is ancestral to the North African and European subclades.

Ibericus
07-03-2020, 05:37 PM
Just a technical question: why are some samples displayed directly under the clade (ie. E-PF2546) and others are under the paragroup (ie. E-PF2546*)? Aren't both basal?

NetNomad
07-03-2020, 06:05 PM
There was this Berber guy posting on here who claimed that E-M81 was Amorite (Semitic). :P

Edit: This was the thread: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16632-On-the-origin-of-E-M183 :biggrin1:

Adamm
07-03-2020, 06:16 PM
Basal? We don;t even know how old this sample is.... (it's still under analyze)

Ignis90
07-03-2020, 06:18 PM
Interesting but only ancient dna can tell if E-M81* has had a ancient presence in the Levant, let alone explaining why and when this haplogroup became dominant in modern Maghrebis (the two can be independent of each other).

I think we're bound to find basal E-M81 not only in NW Africa but also in regions which have been in continuous or periodic contacts throughout prehistory and history with the Maghreb (the Near East, Europe and the Sahel).

Also, it' seems like this Negev Bedouin individual is not from the more "pristine" group ( B ) but from the more [North] African-shifted Bedouin A group (similar to some Palestinian Muslims). Correct me if I am wrong.
So I'd say this discovery is less meaningful and almost disappointing.

RagingBull
07-06-2020, 12:28 AM
Interesting but only ancient dna can tell if E-M81* has had a ancient presence in the Levant, let alone explaining why and when this haplogroup became dominant in modern Maghrebis (the two can be independent of each other).

I think we're bound to find basal E-M81 not only in NW Africa but also in regions which have been in continuous or periodic contacts throughout prehistory and history with the Maghreb (the Near East, Europe and the Sahel).

Also, it' seems like this Negev Bedouin individual is not from the more "pristine" group ( B ) but from the more [North] African-shifted Bedouin A group (similar to some Palestinian Muslims). Correct me if I am wrong.
So I'd say this discovery is less meaningful and almost disappointing.

BedouinB form their own component while BedouinA are Samaritan-like and have SSA.

38280

All Negev Bedouins are now on Y-Full. They belong to J-ZS5603* (6), J-Y181197 (2), J-FGC67898* (1), J-BY208461 (1), J-Y125209 (1) J-ZS1575 (1), E-M81* (1), E-Y20282* (1) and G-Y92117* (1). Unexpectedly, J subclades date back to the Islamic period, while E and G subclades are pre-Islamic.

Ibericus
09-06-2020, 01:26 PM
What are these new ERS samples that popped up in the E-M81 tree? Those are from scientific studies, right?

RagingBull
09-07-2020, 06:57 AM
ERS17- samples are from a study titled "The genetic variation in the R1a clade among the Ashkenazi Levites' Y chromosome". I looked at a few samples, they seem to be Jewish.

https://trace.ddbj.nig.ac.jp/DRASearch/study?acc=ERP023547
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-14761-7

Edit: ERS27- samples are from "Whole Y-chromosome sequences reveal an extremely recent origin of the most common North African paternal lineage E-M183 (M81)". A mix of Berbers, Arabs and Europeans.

https://trace.ddbj.nig.ac.jp/DRASearch/study?acc=ERP111419
https://tdx.cat/bitstream/handle/10803/543846/tnsm.pdf?sequence=5&isAllowed=y

Edit 2: ERS25- samples are from "Low-pass DNA sequencing of 1200 Sardinians reconstructs European Y-chromosome phylogeny". All Sardinians.
https://yfull.com/sardinians/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23908240/