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Caius Agrippa
07-07-2020, 09:35 PM
How common are I1 lineages in Iberia and how did they arrived there? Are they more common in Spain or Portugal?

jkotl0327
07-07-2020, 09:47 PM
38337
Source: Eupedia

Their sources:
38338

Caius Agrippa
07-07-2020, 09:53 PM
38337
Source: Eupedia

Their sources:
38338

Seem to be slightly more common in West Iberia than elsewhere. Possible Germanic influence perhaps?

spruithean
07-07-2020, 10:37 PM
Seem to be slightly more common in West Iberia than elsewhere. Possible Germanic influence perhaps?

Probably Germanic influence to some degree, likely a mixture of Migration Period and Medieval Period (Flemish, etc).

Caius Agrippa
07-07-2020, 10:44 PM
Probably Germanic influence to some degree, likely a mixture of Migration Period and Medieval Period (Flemish, etc).

The only way to know for sure is through Big Y or similar tests, right? To see the matches and lineages. I ask because one of my lines is from Azores and this lineage has been proven to carry I1 haplogroup through the test of a relative. Since Azores received some Flemish colonists I'm not sure if the source is more recent Flemish (400-500 years) or very old Germanic (1500 years).

spruithean
07-07-2020, 11:04 PM
The only way to know for sure is through Big Y or similar tests, right? To see the matches and lineages. I ask because one of my lines is from Azores and this lineage has been proven to carry I1 haplogroup through the test of a relative. Since Azores received some Flemish colonists I'm not sure if the source is more recent Flemish (400-500 years) or very old Germanic (1500 years).

Here (https://phylogeographer.com/two-subclades-of-i1-z141-with-potential-to-be-viking-migrants-to-the-azores/) is an interesting read in regards to I1 in the Azores, at least the I-Z140 subclade.

jkotl0327
07-08-2020, 12:04 AM
Seem to be slightly more common in West Iberia than elsewhere. Possible Germanic influence perhaps?

Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia. It is not just W. Iberia.

BAL0051, Late Upper Paleolithic(Azilian?), 11,384–9,263 Cal BCE has YDNA I1. It is probably mostly from Viking/Germanic invasion since I think that is why most southern european I1s are in southern europe, but maybe some of it is local. This sample is from NE Spain.

Looks like mostly I2 and some unidentified I before 2000 BC and R after 2000 BC. Anyway, I'm I2c2 so I don't know much about I1.

Ruderico
07-08-2020, 12:17 PM
I agree it correlates well with Germanic settling during the migration period, West and East Iberia seem to have both higher Germanic/Scandinavian-related haplogroups and genetic drift. I'd say it's hardly a coincidence even if correlation does not imply causation, although in the case of East Iberia it could also be related with their stronger connections with France, including during the early periods of the Reconquista and the Marca Hispanica after the 800s created by Charlemagne.

artemv
07-08-2020, 01:28 PM
Numbers are from FTDNA Y-tree:
Spain - total 2193, I1 - 108, 4,9%
Portugal - total 819, I1 - 41, 5%

I guess bug cities are overrepresented here, but that's the stats of Spanish/Portuguese FTDNA clients.

Token
07-08-2020, 01:51 PM
Numbers are from FTDNA Y-tree:
Spain - total 2193, I1 - 108, 4,9%
Portugal - total 819, I1 - 41, 5%

I guess bug cities are overrepresented here, but that's the stats of Spanish/Portuguese FTDNA clients.

Makes more sense. It would be weird if Iberia had less I1 than Macedonia, as the Eupedia figures suggests.

deadly77
07-08-2020, 08:38 PM
Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia. It is not just W. Iberia.

BAL0051, Late Upper Paleolithic(Azilian?), 11,384–9,263 Cal BCE has YDNA I1. It is probably mostly from Viking/Germanic invasion since I think that is why most southern european I1s are in southern europe, but maybe some of it is local. This sample is from NE Spain.

Looks like mostly I2 and some unidentified I before 2000 BC and R after 2000 BC. Anyway, I'm I2c2 so I don't know much about I1.

For BAL0051, it depends on how you define I1. I prefer to call this sample pre-I1 because he's positive for 13 of the SNPs that define the I1 haplogroup and negative for 20 of the SNPs that define I1 (the rest are unknown as they are no call). I think it's more likely that BAL0051 represents an extinct Y-DNA lineage with no modern day descendants and is an offshoot that shares a common ancestor with modern day I1 folks after the split away from I2, but BAL0051 isn't an ancestor of modern I1.

There are two other ancient samples that are I1 related from Iberia that I'm aware of, and both come from the Olade et al 2019 paper on the Iberian peninsula - one is Car1 - this is also a pre-I1 from a little further South in Cueva de la Carigüela (Piñar, Granada, Andalusia, Spain). Again, I'd call this "pre-I1" as Car1/I0899 is derived for 19 of the SNPs that define I1 and ancestral for 35 of the SNPs that define I1. The dating of this sample at 9700–5500 BCE prior to the TMRCA of modern I1 descendants also makes pre-I1 more likely than full I1 (same with BAL0051).

The other one is I12033 at a necropolis to the North of the Pla de l’Horta villa is located in Sarrià de Ter, around 4km from the city of Girona. The grave goods and the typology of the tombs point to a Visigothic origin of the individuals. 9 of the 58 individuals from this site (5 males, 4 females) were sampled for DNA analysis. Y-DNA haplogroups reported are BT (low coverage), E1b1b1a1b1a, R1b1a1a2a1, J2a and I so they were quite a mixture of haplogroups. The sample I12033 was listed as haplogroup I in the paper, but in looking in the BAM file I've found that I12033 was positive for three of the SNPs that definite I1. It's a very low coverage sample (all the other I1 SNPs are no call) but the dating to to 500-600 CE based on archaeological context and the positive results, I've tentatively put this as I1.

See the link in my signature below for the map of all the known I1 ancient samples (at least the ones I'm aware of).

ColonelPickering
10-13-2021, 05:37 PM
Very interesting thread!

My paternal family is from the Spanish Caribbean and my y-dna is I-Z63. As that haplogroup seems to be somewhat uncommon in Iberia, I have always wondered where it came from.

I have been able to trace most branches of my father's family back to the 18th and 19th century in Spain (Canary Islands, Asturias, Navarre, Galicia, Castilla la Nueva, Andalucia in order), but I do not know where in Spain/Europe my direct paternal line comes from.

Like the OP, I have wondered whether this this haplogroup came from Germanic tribes in Iberia (the Suebi?) or later medieval/colonial era migrants (I know the Flemish were active in the Canary Islands and the early colonization of the Spanish Caribbean).

I actually did the FTDNA big Y to try to find out more, but I'm not entirely sure what to do with the data.

JonikW
10-13-2021, 07:04 PM
Very interesting thread!

My paternal family is from the Spanish Caribbean and my y-dna is I-Z63. As that haplogroup seems to be somewhat uncommon in Iberia, I have always wondered where it came from.

I have been able to trace most branches of my father's family back to the 18th and 19th century in Spain (Canary Islands, Asturias, Navarre, Galicia, Castilla la Nueva, Andalucia in order), but I do not know where in Spain/Europe my direct paternal line comes from.

Like the OP, I have wondered whether this this haplogroup came from Germanic tribes in Iberia (the Suebi?) or later medieval/colonial era migrants (I know the Flemish were active in the Canary Islands and the early colonization of the Spanish Caribbean).

I actually did the FTDNA big Y to try to find out more, but I'm not entirely sure what to do with the data.

Welcome to the forum! Can you tell us your Big Y terminal SNP so we can try to help?

ColonelPickering
10-13-2021, 09:48 PM
Welcome to the forum! Can you tell us your Big Y terminal SNP so we can try to help?

Thank you for the welcome!

It is I-FTA23416. I don't think I have any close matches.

JonikW
10-14-2021, 10:06 AM
Thank you for the welcome!

It is I-FTA23416. I don't think I have any close matches.

Thanks for that. So you're I-BY583+ (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-BY583/) (TMRCA 2,700 ybp).

(This is your path from DF29 to your terminal SNP: I-DF29 > Z63 > BY151 > L849 > S2078 > S2077 > FGC9506 > PR683 > L1237 > BY180884 > BY583 > FTA23416)

We can only guess as to your origin, but a look at the branches arising from your upstream I-S2077 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S2077/) line (3,700 ybp) provides some ideas.

There are a host of possibilities, but I'd put the Vandal movements high up the list based on distribution there. Here's a Wiki map of the Vandal (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Vandals_Migration_pt.gif/290px-Vandals_Migration_pt.gif) movements for comparison with I-S2077.

deadly77
10-14-2021, 10:10 AM
I'll add to JonikW's welcome and welcome to the Anthrogenica forums.

The lack of close matches on Big Y is largely down to the relatively small number of men who have tested to this level of resolution for comparison, and there's also a smaller contribution from FTDNA's filtering of non-matching variants.

Some things you can do (if you haven't already) is to join some of the relevant haplogroup projects at FTDNA. These are run by volunteer admins and these admins are the experts in their Y-DNA "genetic neighbourhood" - their email addresses are on the project page. Projects you should look at (go to these links while logged into your FTDNA account):
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/2121/about - largest I-Z63 focused project. Admins are enthusiastic and they have a Facebook group for I-Z63 here https://www.facebook.com/groups/1617233258554237
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i1-pr683y2245/about - smaller subgroup within I-Z63
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/y-dna-i1/about - main I1 project
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/i1-iberico/about - geographical project for I1 in Iberia

Looking up I-FTA23416, it looks like there's only one person on that branch, which I guess is you, and three more kits (two German flags, one unknown) at FTDNA under I-BY94239. These three have a phylogenetic block of 32 SNPs so they probably won't appear in your Big Y match list and the common ancestor between themselves and you is likely quite far in the past. Going up to your "parent" subclade of I-BY583, it's a small group of 10 at FTDNA, with 3 Russian flags, 2 German flags, 1 Sweden flag, 1 Estonia and 3 that haven't put an origin. So definitely a different geographical distribution from Iberia. However, the common ancestor is likely quite far in the past. Looking up I-BY583 on the YFull tree here https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-BY583/, the TMRCA (time to most recent common ancestor) is estimated to 3400-2100 years ago. A lot can have happened since then. YFull is a good second opinion - they don't do Y-DNA testing themselves but they analyze Y-DNA data. It's a smaller data subset compared to the FTDNA Big Y database (you can see there are only four here rather than the 10 at FTDNA under I-BY583), but also includes data from people who have tested outside of FTDNA Big Y and I find their analysis tools are better and easier to use.

In terms of ancient samples, not a lot that are confirmed I-Z63. I have a map of the known ancient I1 on this map here https://bit.ly/2Z3CJk7 - I-Z63 samples are in yellow and there's three of them - CL63, R110, VK157 - you can read more about them by clicking on the pins on the map.

deadly77
10-14-2021, 10:13 AM
[mod note] - moved this from the I to the I1 subforum.

Aroon1916
10-14-2021, 02:08 PM
My father is Y6375 which I believe is just downstream of S2077. I should ask him to test with FTDNA.
I am always excited to find out more about Z63.

Can trace his direct paternal ancestor (my father’s 2x great grandfather) to Ulster. I haven’t been able to find out any other information (I.e. did the family originate from England, Scotland or elsewhere).

My apologies for jumping in.

deadly77
10-14-2021, 03:38 PM
My father is Y6375 which I believe is just downstream of S2077. I should ask him to test with FTDNA.
I am always excited to find out more about Z63.

Can trace his direct paternal ancestor (my father’s 2x great grandfather) to Ulster. I haven’t been able to find out any other information (I.e. did the family originate from England, Scotland or elsewhere).

My apologies for jumping in.

Based on what I've seen in discussion forums (and my own experience), it's not uncommon to have a considerable gap between the end of an individual's paper trail genealogy and the TMRCA of the subclade where branching off from the rest of the tested population. This won't apply to everyone, but it seems that it is the most likely outcome for most Y-DNA testers.

No need to apologise - I'm not opposed to a things that are a little off topic- threads can go off on short tangents like above, where the main thread topic is I1 in Iberia, but a few posts about I-Z63 in relation to I-Z63 tracing their lineage back to Iberia is an organic feature of discussion and not unexpected (and also not off-topic). However, if it's going to diverge significantly from I1 in Iberia, it may be best to start a new thread on I-Z63 outside of the Iberia topic. That will also make it easier for other readers to find the topic and contribute to discussions.