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mokordo
07-08-2020, 05:37 PM
After doing it with French samples, itīs the time of Italian ones.

2 samples, North and South making the means with most representative references from each Italian zone?

Which samples would be the best ones to discriminate accurately North and South Italy among modern pop averages datasheet refrences?

Ideas,opinions,suggestions please.


Italian_Abruzzo,0.1126848,0.1488017,-0.0006749,-0.034765,0.0161163,-0.0125501,0.0007792,-0.0022834,0.0037891,0.0208133,0.0005128,0.0036677,-0.0056336,-0.0039041,-0.0061502,-0.0014655,0.0018596,0.0002667,0.0033608,-0.0036926,-0.003809,0.001334,0.0008886,0.001706,-0.0009642
Italian_Aosta_Valley,0.1269696,0.1460839,0.0392582 ,0.0047481,0.036976,-0.0015478,0.0024088,0.0028038,0.0102262,0.0219594,-0.004766,0.0049306,-0.0147248,-0.010356,0.0074986,0.0062582,0.0051892,-0.000285,0.003375,-0.0005378,0.0029261,0.0019476,-0.0009181,0.0081396,-5.98e-05
Italian_Apulia,0.1107119,0.1482673,-0.0037713,-0.0401381,0.0158388,-0.0151159,-0.0009557,-0.0016153,0.0027951,0.0206898,-0.0002273,0.0038765,-0.0064717,0.0011929,-0.0081071,-0.0038982,0.0016691,0.0005997,0.0027485,-0.0051524,-0.0038098,0.0019619,0.0017584,0.0014379,-0.0005667
Italian_Basilicata,0.1092701,0.1466877,-0.0049864,-0.0405186,0.0132674,-0.0153391,0.0010444,-0.0016667,0.0043403,0.019236,1e-07,0.0030306,-0.0071026,-0.0007799,-0.0090631,-0.0015763,0.0058818,-0.0003238,0.003366,-0.0051273,-0.0018854,0.0022396,0.0023007,0.002691,0.0003459
Italian_Bergamo,0.1238394,0.1507044,0.0306976,-0.0117572,0.0361914,-0.0026774,0.001081,0.0017076,0.010758,0.0276634,-0.0013966,0.0068042,-0.0128442,-0.0062756,-0.0034744,-0.0041634,-0.0003652,0.0006588,0.0051536,-0.0055526,-0.001048,-2.48e-05,-0.0041902,0.0037836,0.0009578
Italian_Calabria,0.1028203,0.1462363,-0.011942,-0.0466197,0.0125147,-0.0117133,-0.0024283,-0.0031537,0.0044993,0.0215037,0.000433,0.0027977,-0.0055003,-0.000963,-0.009636,-0.0052593,0.0068237,0.0009713,0.0051537,-0.003043,-0.0026203,-0.0023907,-0.0001643,0.0037753,0.00012
Italian_Campania,0.1077999,0.1480133,-0.0089094,-0.0436185,0.0137461,-0.0161523,-0.0004504,-0.002269,0.0041928,0.0222025,0.0007848,0.0023355,-0.0050607,-0.0017088,-0.0066447,-0.0007843,0.0027761,-0.0002586,0.0025872,-0.004028,-0.0040866,0.0018496,0.001058,0.0019682,0.0002893
Italian_Jew,0.0949283,0.1456271,-0.0186674,-0.0564927,0.0112941,-0.0245423,-0.003995,-0.002792,0.0128851,0.0191349,0.0045143,0.00021,0.0 021557,-0.0028762,-0.0066097,-0.0012331,-0.0011995,-0.0010515,-0.0011187,-0.0035893,-0.0039059,-0.0015456,-0.000123,0.0023617,0.0028741
Italian_Lazio,0.1146768,0.1525832,0.006694,-0.0350455,0.0213115,-0.0115738,0.0024675,0.000519,0.0068512,0.0234627,0 .001299,0.0028475,-0.007656,-0.0070875,-0.0068538,0.0041432,-0.000228,-0.0005068,0.0018225,-0.005065,-0.002745,0.0033695,-0.0003697,-0.0003613,-0.000479
Italian_Liguria,0.113823,0.146236,0.027153,-0.011951,0.029236,-0.002231,0.00235,0.001154,0.009613,0.025331,-0.009743,0.002847,-0.013082,0.001101,-0.001086,-0.012463,-0.00665,-0.00038,0.003771,0.00075,-0.00025,0.000989,0.003944,0.000723,0.000599
Italian_Lombardy,0.1245224,0.147861,0.0279822,-0.0137598,0.0327446,-0.007753,0.000658,0,0.0103898,0.0299232,-0.0025008,0.008932,-0.0143606,-0.0047066,-0.0008686,-0.0078758,-0.0083448,0.0017738,0.0034442,-0.004102,-0.002246,0.0012366,-0.0006656,0.0030602,0.0008382
Italian_Marche,0.1176646,0.1482038,0.0086029,-0.0290498,0.0213692,-0.0103538,0.0006462,-0.0031152,0.0061358,0.0213101,-0.0005888,0.0043836,-0.008548,-0.0016944,-0.0032828,-0.0023286,-0.000383,0.001259,0.0026948,-0.0033219,-0.0009671,0.0024574,0.0006394,0.0037278,-0.0016691
Italian_Molise,0.112685,0.146744,0.00132,-0.0334305,0.0155415,-0.0132475,0.004465,-0.003,0.00225,0.019408,0.003735,0.003372,-0.008102,-0.002684,-0.0071255,-0.0031155,0.005085,0.001837,0.0023255,-0.0080035,-0.0013725,0.0045135,-0.000801,0.0035545,0.0001195
Italian_Northeast,0.1256119,0.1435524,0.035611,0.0 017304,0.0354352,0.0020319,0.0031725,0.0020439,0.0 068808,0.0159456,-0.0023661,0.0047744,-0.0083887,-0.0003736,-0.0045758,0.0003598,0.0040232,0.0008869,0.0038337,-0.0025993,-0.0035295,0.0004328,-0.0017957,0.0045702,0.0003593
Italian_Piedmont,0.1213354,0.1473534,0.0208925,-0.0145996,0.0292668,-0.0058844,0.0028435,0.0001615,0.0074653,0.0241279,-0.0002273,0.0063544,-0.0098859,-0.0045141,-0.0015744,-0.0027048,0.0011213,0.0008997,0.0021747,-0.0038269,-0.0025705,0.0018548,-0.0024033,0.0038316,-0.0014967
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige,0.1250429,0.1459461,0.0346411,-0.0035069,0.0372377,-0.0033864,0.0033571,0.0029997,0.011307,0.0238729,-0.0030157,0.0050099,-0.0134431,-0.002831,-0.0005237,-0.0018751,0.0005961,0.001665,0.0042739,-0.0030194,-0.0014259,0.0028086,-0.0005106,0.000637,-0.0036781
Italian_Tuscany,0.1186036,0.1487413,0.0136014,-0.0204997,0.0261587,-0.0090546,-0.00047,-0.0013845,0.0074991,0.0238972,-0.0002273,0.0054552,-0.0118631,-0.0045965,-0.0023797,-0.0002917,0.0040332,0.0004815,0.0038463,-0.0023929,-0.0012063,0.0024647,-0.0010436,0.00388,-0.0015885
Italian_Umbria,0.1171113,0.1474776,0.0077941,-0.0279933,0.0200379,-0.0091724,-0.0008617,-0.0024103,0.0052267,0.025918,-0.0003788,0.0053953,-0.0101584,-0.0053214,-0.0024883,0.0005747,0.0069538,0.0005912,0.0010613,-0.0023344,-0.0034107,0.0007556,0.0003149,0.0030391,-0.0010911
Italian_Veneto,0.1256322,0.1482672,0.0303111,-0.0061572,0.0342755,-0.0004532,0.0020416,0.0020047,0.0100346,0.0230415,-0.0022328,0.0054889,-0.0105363,-0.0038189,-0.0026974,0.000953,0.0034796,0.0019557,0.0028518,-0.0042286,-0.0009982,0.0028594,-0.0001309,0.001318,-0.0021479

I have already made the Sicilian average:


Sicilian_Average,0.10168200,0.14606700,-0.00383415,-0.03832935,0.01861865,-0.01259680,-0.00129250,0.00030765,0.01046465,0.02180770,0.0053 5865,0.00349700,-0.00418735,0.00250000,-0.00409415,-0.00483950,-0.00236850,-0.00059115,0.00180165,-0.00500250,0.00039535,0.00175180,-0.00254700,-0.00060250,0.00031915

Sicilian_Average,=Sicilian_East,+Sicilian_West

Target: Sicilian_Average
Distance: 0.0000% / 0.00000000
50.0 Sicilian_East
50.0 Sicilian_West

There is only 1 Sardinian sample in modern pop. averages datasheet, so nothing to do with it.

Caius Agrippa
07-08-2020, 09:25 PM
I believe the best averages for North Italian are Italian_Bergamo and Italian_Lombardy. Lombardia is the most populous region of Italy.

JerryS.
08-24-2020, 07:08 PM
help me try to understand something about my minor Mediterranean ancestry. I am a vast majority N.W. European. my Italian comes from the south, and there is suspect northern Italian as well but I find only a surname and family story for that. If I run my unscaled G25 through this of course it will only show Italian populations, but I wonder if the break down of those populations could shed some light on my Italian ancestry. my scaled g25 shows 100% Aosta Valley. no surprise there and I have at least 75% or more N.W. European. my unscaled g25 data shows several Italian regional breakdowns so I was wondering if that could be interpreted somehow with any measure of validity?

Thanks.

anglesqueville
08-24-2020, 09:03 PM
After doing it with French samples, itīs the time of Italian ones.



Sorry for my distraction, I have seemingly missed something. What were you referring to?

edit: ignore my question, I found your thread. Sorry again.

digital_noise
08-24-2020, 09:18 PM
help me try to understand something about my minor Mediterranean ancestry. I am a vast majority N.W. European. my Italian comes from the south, and there is suspect northern Italian as well but I find only a surname and family story for that. If I run my unscaled G25 through this of course it will only show Italian populations, but I wonder if the break down of those populations could shed some light on my Italian ancestry. my scaled g25 shows 100% Aosta Valley. no surprise there and I have at least 75% or more N.W. European. my unscaled g25 data shows several Italian regional breakdowns so I was wondering if that could be interpreted somehow with any measure of validity?

Thanks.

Regardless of North/South etc.. it s unlikely at this point you will be able to figure any of this out via G25. I ve seen your results, and its minor enough that it is unlikely that any results would shed much light on things, especially since you get strong NW Euro %'s.

That said, your 23 and me results, if I understood what you said correctly, showed Veneto as the #1 region followed by others? They usually get the #1 correct, its the rest that are usually due to marriages etc... also the fact that you get 0% West Asian. If thats the case, I would recommend tightening up what you think you know via documented paper trails instead of relying on test results to get to the facts.

JerryS.
08-24-2020, 09:31 PM
Regardless of North/South etc.. it s unlikely at this point you will be able to figure any of this out via G25. I ve seen your results, and its minor enough that it is unlikely that any results would shed much light on things, especially since you get strong NW Euro %'s.

That said, your 23 and me results, if I understood what you said correctly, showed Veneto as the #1 region followed by others? They usually get the #1 correct, its the rest that are usually due to marriages etc... also the fact that you get 0% West Asian. If thats the case, I would recommend tightening up what you think you know via documented paper trails instead of relying on test results to get to the facts.

yes, 23/me is the only DNA test that I've taken that did not show west Asian (though it does show trace Somalia). the other companies that decipher the 23/me raw data it show it, but 23/me itself does not. even Ancestry* showed it as trace if I recall correctly.

that said, my question was how, if at all could this population collection infer anything from my data?

digital_noise
08-24-2020, 09:41 PM
Yes, the answer is unlikely to help. That’s why I suggested you solve it the old fashioned way :).

Did 23 & Me list Veneto as your #1 region?


Edit*. Let me say that it would take a lot of work to develop a model that may or may not help you. But just taking population averages won’t really be of any use.

JerryS.
08-24-2020, 09:53 PM
Yes, the answer is unlikely to help. That’s why I suggested you solve it the old fashioned way :).

Did 23 & Me list Veneto as your #1 region?


Edit*. Let me say that it would take a lot of work to develop a model that may or may not help you. But just taking population averages won’t really be of any use.

yes, 23/me has Veneto and Campania shaded the same dark blue with Calabria looking a shade lighter.

I figured that this pop sample group here might help in this way.....

whether my Italian is 10% or 20% for easy numbers, this model would show only my Italian leaning. so for example if my unscaled data showed half north and half south, it could possibly indicate that 10% is 5 north and 5 south, or 20% is 10 north and 10 south etc.... I've already played with this here but did not post any of the data because I don't know if it would have any relevance at all. with the Sicilian sample I get some Sicilian, without it I get Italian Jew in its place, the rest being north in either mode. that's something to discuss if anything can be be inferred.

JMcB
08-24-2020, 09:54 PM
help me try to understand something about my minor Mediterranean ancestry. I am a vast majority N.W. European. my Italian comes from the south, and there is suspect northern Italian as well but I find only a surname and family story for that. If I run my unscaled G25 through this of course it will only show Italian populations, but I wonder if the break down of those populations could shed some light on my Italian ancestry. my scaled g25 shows 100% Aosta Valley. no surprise there and I have at least 75% or more N.W. European. my unscaled g25 data shows several Italian regional breakdowns so I was wondering if that could be interpreted somehow with any measure of validity?

Thanks.

Coincidentally, my 2cd Great Grandfather and his parents were all Sicilian but I never get any Sicilian. I also get 100% Aosta_Valley.

Distance to: JMcB_scaled
0.05285513 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.06009734 Italian_Northeast
0.06432564 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.06858750 Italian_Veneto
0.07417266 Italian_Bergamo
0.07876055 Italian_Lombardy


It works as a nice proxy percentage wise, so I shrug my shoulders and carry on.

However, as my nephew used to say: what’s up with that?

digital_noise
08-24-2020, 09:56 PM
I could be wrong but I don’t think it works that way for most of us who are mixed.

JerryS.
08-24-2020, 09:56 PM
Coincidentally, my 2cd Great Grandfather and his parents were all Sicilian but I never get any Sicilian. I also get 100% Aosta_Valley.

Distance to: JMcB_scaled
0.05285513 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.06009734 Italian_Northeast
0.06432564 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.06858750 Italian_Veneto
0.07417266 Italian_Bergamo
0.07876055 Italian_Lombardy


It works as a nice proxy percentage wise, so I shrug my shoulder and carry on.

As my nephew used to say: what’s up with that?

what is your unscaled breakdown? if my thinking here is along any sound reasoning that is... if your 6.25% shows as all southern or what?

JerryS.
08-24-2020, 10:15 PM
just playing with this idea...

Ancestry* with Sicilian average.

Target: Gerald
Distance: 17.2838% / 0.17283750
64.6 Sicilian_Average
29.0 Italian_Northeast
6.4 Italian_Liguria

23/me with Sicilian average.

Target: Gerald
Distance: 17.2664% / 0.17266439
42.2 Sicilian_Average
35.0 Italian_Northeast
14.8 Italian_Jew
8.0 Italian_Liguria


Ancestry* without Sicilian average.

Target: Gerald
Distance: 17.3016% / 0.17301570
41.2 Italian_Jew
35.4 Italian_Northeast
23.4 Italian_Liguria


23/me without Sicilian average.

Target: Gerald
Distance: 17.2727% / 0.17272701
41.8 Italian_Jew
39.2 Italian_Northeast
19.0 Italian_Liguria


just pondering if anything can be inferred by this.

digital_noise
08-24-2020, 10:18 PM
It does that I think because of the vast majority of your ethnicity is NW, but it sees any sort of Italian it just pulls it as close as possible to the NW. I think at least, I could be misunderstanding something

JerryS.
08-24-2020, 10:21 PM
It does that I think because of the vast majority of your ethnicity is NW, but it sees any sort of Italian it just pulls it as close as possible to the NW. I think at least, I could be misunderstanding something

try yours since yours is from one source recently and of higher amount. see what your unscaled data shows you. if you think anything can be inferred share it. if not I'm just not knowledgeable enough to understand this.

digital_noise
08-24-2020, 10:27 PM
Thats scaled data not umscaled. Running unscaled is incorrect.

Distance: 4.0517% / 0.04051654
76.6 Italian_Northeast
21.6 Italian_Aosta_Valley
1.8 Italian_Liguria


Absolutely useless.


I guess what I am saying to you is this: We are mixed so this method wont give anything useful, unless a very thorough and thoughtfully compiled model is developed. If I were you, I would try to figure out if you really had Southern Italian or not. Its pointing northern for you. Of course, none of this is set in stone but thats how it seems

JerryS.
08-24-2020, 10:32 PM
Thats scaled data not umscaled. Running unscaled is incorrect.

Distance: 4.0517% / 0.04051654
76.6 Italian_Northeast
21.6 Italian_Aosta_Valley
1.8 Italian_Liguria


Absolutely useless.


I guess what I am saying to you is this: We are mixed so this method wont give anything useful, unless a very thorough and thoughtfully compiled model is developed. If I were you, I would try to figure out if you really had Southern Italian or not. Its pointing northern for you. Of course, none of this is set in stone but thats how it seems

I've read that unscaled filters less show that smaller amounts show, or something like that.

digital_noise
08-24-2020, 10:33 PM
Yea but you need unscaled coordinates for that

JerryS.
08-24-2020, 10:36 PM
Yea but you need unscaled coordinates for that

ok. I thought everyone got scaled and unscaled at the same time when they bought the G25 coordinates.

digital_noise
08-24-2020, 10:43 PM
They do but the sample coordinates need to be unscaled also. Your scaled coordinates cannot be used with an I scaled cLculator and vice versa. The distance is too high. 17.00 vs 4.5 for me.

JerryS.
08-24-2020, 10:52 PM
They do but the sample coordinates need to be unscaled also. Your scaled coordinates cannot be used with an I scaled cLculator and vice versa. The distance is too high. 17.00 vs 4.5 for me.

right, I figured that this model might only look at the Italian part since there are no NW European averages. and if so, would it break down that Italian part into segments according to how its put together. I know the scaled data is no good as it gives me 100% Aosta Valley @ 5.00 something, guessing because of my NW primary. I've been using unscaled data for this.

digital_noise
08-24-2020, 11:00 PM
Your scaled coordinates only go with scaled data calcs. Unscaled go with unscaled calculators. Mixing the two gives large distances. I don’t know how meaningful, if at all, the results would even be.

JerryS.
08-24-2020, 11:12 PM
Your scaled coordinates only go with scaled data calcs. Unscaled go with unscaled calculators. Mixing the two gives large distances. I don’t know how meaningful, if at all, the results would even be.

yeah, I was hoping somebody with a true scientific understanding of all this could weigh in instead of just our layman knowledge, though I yield to you better understanding of all this.

JMcB
08-24-2020, 11:33 PM
what is your unscaled breakdown? if my thinking here is along any sound reasoning that is... if your 6.25% shows as all southern or what?

Using unscaled I get pretty much the same:

Distance to: JMcB
0.02071913 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02652793 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02740666 Italian_Northeast
0.02798388 Italian_Veneto
0.02978784 Italian_Bergamo
0.03097376 Italian_Piedmont
0.03122198 Italian_Lombardy
0.03163384 Italian_Liguria
0.03291802 Italian_Tuscany
0.03563826 Italian_Marche
0.03689752 Italian_Umbria
0.03831636 Italian_Lazio
0.03992273 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04028412 Italian_Molise
0.04052992 Sicilian_West
0.04273391 Sicilian_East
0.04307581 Italian_Apulia
0.04308891 Italian_Basilicata
0.04376594 Italian_Campania
0.04582392 Italian_Calabria
0.04930049 Italian_Jew


Target: JMcB
Distance: 2.0719% / 0.02071913

100.0 Italian_Aosta_Valley

JerryS.
08-24-2020, 11:36 PM
Using unscaled I get pretty much the same:

Distance to: JMcB
0.02071913 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02652793 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02740666 Italian_Northeast
0.02798388 Italian_Veneto
0.02978784 Italian_Bergamo
0.03097376 Italian_Piedmont
0.03122198 Italian_Lombardy
0.03163384 Italian_Liguria
0.03291802 Italian_Tuscany
0.03563826 Italian_Marche
0.03689752 Italian_Umbria
0.03831636 Italian_Lazio
0.03992273 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04028412 Italian_Molise
0.04052992 Sicilian_West
0.04273391 Sicilian_East
0.04307581 Italian_Apulia
0.04308891 Italian_Basilicata
0.04376594 Italian_Campania
0.04582392 Italian_Calabria
0.04930049 Italian_Jew


Target: JMcB
Distance: 2.0719% / 0.02071913

100.0 Italian_Aosta_Valley

what is your single list (4th tab from left) showing? my guess is with unscaled data yours should show all southern listing based on your history.

JMcB
08-24-2020, 11:45 PM
what is your single list (4th tab from left) showing? my guess is with unscaled data yours should show all southern listing based on your history.

Same thing more or less.

Distance to: JMcB
0.02088325 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta6
0.02149349 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta1
0.02184468 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta10
0.02255748 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta18
0.02419793 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071
0.02436534 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta15
0.02507728 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta3
0.02583892 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP070
0.02622003 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta2
0.02642347 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta16
0.02658515 Italian_Veneto:Alp100
0.02663494 Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
0.02667171 Italian_Northeast:ALP346
0.02713798 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta12
0.02737042 Italian_Northeast:KF1800761
0.02764760 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01147
0.02807080 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta9
0.02830495 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP259
0.02846226 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta19
0.02852262 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta20
0.02856326 Italian_Veneto:ALP250
0.02870749 Italian_Veneto:Alp401
0.02879965 Italian_Northeast:ALP435
0.02882950 Italian_Northeast:ALP280
0.02900241 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta11


I think I’ll go back to shrugging my shoulders. Interesting experiment, though.

JerryS.
08-24-2020, 11:48 PM
Same thing more or less.

Distance to: JMcB
0.02088325 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta6
0.02149349 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta1
0.02184468 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta10
0.02255748 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta18
0.02419793 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071
0.02436534 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta15
0.02507728 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta3
0.02583892 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP070
0.02622003 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta2
0.02642347 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta16
0.02658515 Italian_Veneto:Alp100
0.02663494 Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
0.02667171 Italian_Northeast:ALP346
0.02713798 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta12
0.02737042 Italian_Northeast:KF1800761
0.02764760 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01147
0.02807080 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta9
0.02830495 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP259
0.02846226 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta19
0.02852262 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta20
0.02856326 Italian_Veneto:ALP250
0.02870749 Italian_Veneto:Alp401
0.02879965 Italian_Northeast:ALP435
0.02882950 Italian_Northeast:ALP280
0.02900241 Italian_Aosta_Valley:Aosta11


I think I’ll go back to shrugging my shoulders. Interesting experiment, though.

you're not using unscaled data and showing the (4th tab) single tab listings. you're showing the 3rd tab distance listing.

digital_noise
08-24-2020, 11:58 PM
You’d have to eliminate any or all of the Northern Italian samples in order to get any meaningful southern numbers, especially if you have a majority NW. otherwise due to the nature of the program, it’ll just give you as close to NW euro as it can.

JerryS.
08-25-2020, 12:01 AM
You’d have to eliminate any or all of the Northern Italian samples in order to get any meaningful southern numbers, especially if you have a majority NW. otherwise due to the nature of the program, it’ll just give you as close to NW euro as it can.

but why would it have any southern if its pull north because of primary ancestry? again, I'm using unscaled. I figured leaving all the pop groups listed in there that if there was no southern the 4th tab would show all northern pops.

digital_noise
08-25-2020, 12:33 AM
What southern pull are you talking about?

JerryS.
08-25-2020, 12:38 AM
What southern pull are you talking about?

you said you have to remove all northern samples to get any meaningful southern numbers. I figured leaving the northern samples of Liguria, Lombardy etc. in there that no southern groups like Sicilian, Basilicata etc. would show unless there was a southern pull to the sample. just guess work is all I'm doing.

digital_noise
08-25-2020, 01:07 AM
My results default to like 35-45% Aosta or Liguria if given the opportunity.even if I leave all Southern pops there. To get any southern result I have to remove the northern.

jstephan
08-25-2020, 01:36 AM
My results default to like 35-45% Aosta or Liguria if given the opportunity.even if I leave all Southern pops there. To get any southern result I have to remove the northern.

It would be nice to have the possibility to extract some fractions of specific ancestries directly from Vahaduo (or others tools), then Jerry could extract everything non Italian based on his known ancestry and leave all the Italian populations and get something accurate. Aosta valley is genetically speaking one of the most most North-Western (if not the most) part of Italy so makes sense you all get it first if you also have significant British ancestry. Ph2ter can also help you with his extraction maps, they could be very useful in your case Jerry, they helped a lot a friend of mine that was mixed.

JerryS.
08-25-2020, 01:53 AM
It would be nice to have the possibility to extract some fractions of specific ancestries directly from Vahaduo (or others tools), then Jerry could extract everything non Italian based on his known ancestry and leave all the Italian populations and get something accurate. Aosta valley is genetically speaking one of the most most North-Western (if not the most) part of Italy so makes sense you all get it first if you also have significant British ancestry. Ph2ter can also help you with his extraction maps, they could be very useful in your case Jerry, they helped a lot a friend of mine that was mixed.

I enjoy messing around with these models using the G25 data. I've read pros and cons of how population sample groups have been put together so I take everything with a grain of salt. I also wonder how (if at all) any of that is related to G25 data gathering. I was really hoping for the FGC to have gotten itself together with their beta project I was involved with... until then, if they ever get going with it again I've subscribed to yet another one of the latest raw data deciphering companies, ANDTRO. however, they have some work to do. Ethnogenes seemed to be back on track and have been almost perfect for a lot of people but their methods are somewhat secretive and they go under too often to be relied upon. thanks for your input here.

digital_noise
08-25-2020, 02:48 AM
I think you need to take all of this with. Grain of salt. G25 is good for modeling and creating “good enough” but it’s not gonna eek out fine details unless you work hard at it. I’d trust 23 and me over anything honestly. I know it doesn’t follow the narrative you’d hoped for but I think it’s gonna get you pointed in the right direction better than any other service

JerryS.
08-25-2020, 03:18 AM
I think you need to take all of this with. Grain of salt. G25 is good for modeling and creating “good enough” but it’s not gonna eek out fine details unless you work hard at it. I’d trust 23 and me over anything honestly. I know it doesn’t follow the narrative you’d hoped for but I think it’s gonna get you pointed in the right direction better than any other service

what about the old Ancestry data? having the raw data from both evaluated by the same source and getting slightly different results.... I take it all with a grain of salt now. I've now been looking at matches with relatives and see how their Gedmatch stuff meters out.

digital_noise
08-25-2020, 05:29 AM
Ancestry autosomal results or raw data? In my opinion Ancestry was good three updates ago. The last 2 have dumbed it down severely. The raw data is good for Gedmatch and the like, but you run into the same issues we all do when running it through third parties like Ethnogene, Adntro etc... I cannot begin to tell you how many third party results I have that are essentially the same as each other from different companies that use the same old 1000 Genomes project samples.

You get different results from 23/me and Ancestry raw data because they test different SNP's. The 23/me raw data is good for 23/me, thats about it. For everything else, Ancestry, My Heritage, FTDNA is better.

Nino90
08-26-2020, 09:43 PM
After doing it with French samples, itīs the time of Italian ones.

2 samples, North and South making the means with most representative references from each Italian zone?

Which samples would be the best ones to discriminate accurately North and South Italy among modern pop averages datasheet refrences?

Ideas,opinions,suggestions please.


Italian_Abruzzo,0.1126848,0.1488017,-0.0006749,-0.034765,0.0161163,-0.0125501,0.0007792,-0.0022834,0.0037891,0.0208133,0.0005128,0.0036677,-0.0056336,-0.0039041,-0.0061502,-0.0014655,0.0018596,0.0002667,0.0033608,-0.0036926,-0.003809,0.001334,0.0008886,0.001706,-0.0009642
Italian_Aosta_Valley,0.1269696,0.1460839,0.0392582 ,0.0047481,0.036976,-0.0015478,0.0024088,0.0028038,0.0102262,0.0219594,-0.004766,0.0049306,-0.0147248,-0.010356,0.0074986,0.0062582,0.0051892,-0.000285,0.003375,-0.0005378,0.0029261,0.0019476,-0.0009181,0.0081396,-5.98e-05
Italian_Apulia,0.1107119,0.1482673,-0.0037713,-0.0401381,0.0158388,-0.0151159,-0.0009557,-0.0016153,0.0027951,0.0206898,-0.0002273,0.0038765,-0.0064717,0.0011929,-0.0081071,-0.0038982,0.0016691,0.0005997,0.0027485,-0.0051524,-0.0038098,0.0019619,0.0017584,0.0014379,-0.0005667
Italian_Basilicata,0.1092701,0.1466877,-0.0049864,-0.0405186,0.0132674,-0.0153391,0.0010444,-0.0016667,0.0043403,0.019236,1e-07,0.0030306,-0.0071026,-0.0007799,-0.0090631,-0.0015763,0.0058818,-0.0003238,0.003366,-0.0051273,-0.0018854,0.0022396,0.0023007,0.002691,0.0003459
Italian_Bergamo,0.1238394,0.1507044,0.0306976,-0.0117572,0.0361914,-0.0026774,0.001081,0.0017076,0.010758,0.0276634,-0.0013966,0.0068042,-0.0128442,-0.0062756,-0.0034744,-0.0041634,-0.0003652,0.0006588,0.0051536,-0.0055526,-0.001048,-2.48e-05,-0.0041902,0.0037836,0.0009578
Italian_Calabria,0.1028203,0.1462363,-0.011942,-0.0466197,0.0125147,-0.0117133,-0.0024283,-0.0031537,0.0044993,0.0215037,0.000433,0.0027977,-0.0055003,-0.000963,-0.009636,-0.0052593,0.0068237,0.0009713,0.0051537,-0.003043,-0.0026203,-0.0023907,-0.0001643,0.0037753,0.00012
Italian_Campania,0.1077999,0.1480133,-0.0089094,-0.0436185,0.0137461,-0.0161523,-0.0004504,-0.002269,0.0041928,0.0222025,0.0007848,0.0023355,-0.0050607,-0.0017088,-0.0066447,-0.0007843,0.0027761,-0.0002586,0.0025872,-0.004028,-0.0040866,0.0018496,0.001058,0.0019682,0.0002893
Italian_Jew,0.0949283,0.1456271,-0.0186674,-0.0564927,0.0112941,-0.0245423,-0.003995,-0.002792,0.0128851,0.0191349,0.0045143,0.00021,0.0 021557,-0.0028762,-0.0066097,-0.0012331,-0.0011995,-0.0010515,-0.0011187,-0.0035893,-0.0039059,-0.0015456,-0.000123,0.0023617,0.0028741
Italian_Lazio,0.1146768,0.1525832,0.006694,-0.0350455,0.0213115,-0.0115738,0.0024675,0.000519,0.0068512,0.0234627,0 .001299,0.0028475,-0.007656,-0.0070875,-0.0068538,0.0041432,-0.000228,-0.0005068,0.0018225,-0.005065,-0.002745,0.0033695,-0.0003697,-0.0003613,-0.000479
Italian_Liguria,0.113823,0.146236,0.027153,-0.011951,0.029236,-0.002231,0.00235,0.001154,0.009613,0.025331,-0.009743,0.002847,-0.013082,0.001101,-0.001086,-0.012463,-0.00665,-0.00038,0.003771,0.00075,-0.00025,0.000989,0.003944,0.000723,0.000599
Italian_Lombardy,0.1245224,0.147861,0.0279822,-0.0137598,0.0327446,-0.007753,0.000658,0,0.0103898,0.0299232,-0.0025008,0.008932,-0.0143606,-0.0047066,-0.0008686,-0.0078758,-0.0083448,0.0017738,0.0034442,-0.004102,-0.002246,0.0012366,-0.0006656,0.0030602,0.0008382
Italian_Marche,0.1176646,0.1482038,0.0086029,-0.0290498,0.0213692,-0.0103538,0.0006462,-0.0031152,0.0061358,0.0213101,-0.0005888,0.0043836,-0.008548,-0.0016944,-0.0032828,-0.0023286,-0.000383,0.001259,0.0026948,-0.0033219,-0.0009671,0.0024574,0.0006394,0.0037278,-0.0016691
Italian_Molise,0.112685,0.146744,0.00132,-0.0334305,0.0155415,-0.0132475,0.004465,-0.003,0.00225,0.019408,0.003735,0.003372,-0.008102,-0.002684,-0.0071255,-0.0031155,0.005085,0.001837,0.0023255,-0.0080035,-0.0013725,0.0045135,-0.000801,0.0035545,0.0001195
Italian_Northeast,0.1256119,0.1435524,0.035611,0.0 017304,0.0354352,0.0020319,0.0031725,0.0020439,0.0 068808,0.0159456,-0.0023661,0.0047744,-0.0083887,-0.0003736,-0.0045758,0.0003598,0.0040232,0.0008869,0.0038337,-0.0025993,-0.0035295,0.0004328,-0.0017957,0.0045702,0.0003593
Italian_Piedmont,0.1213354,0.1473534,0.0208925,-0.0145996,0.0292668,-0.0058844,0.0028435,0.0001615,0.0074653,0.0241279,-0.0002273,0.0063544,-0.0098859,-0.0045141,-0.0015744,-0.0027048,0.0011213,0.0008997,0.0021747,-0.0038269,-0.0025705,0.0018548,-0.0024033,0.0038316,-0.0014967
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige,0.1250429,0.1459461,0.0346411,-0.0035069,0.0372377,-0.0033864,0.0033571,0.0029997,0.011307,0.0238729,-0.0030157,0.0050099,-0.0134431,-0.002831,-0.0005237,-0.0018751,0.0005961,0.001665,0.0042739,-0.0030194,-0.0014259,0.0028086,-0.0005106,0.000637,-0.0036781
Italian_Tuscany,0.1186036,0.1487413,0.0136014,-0.0204997,0.0261587,-0.0090546,-0.00047,-0.0013845,0.0074991,0.0238972,-0.0002273,0.0054552,-0.0118631,-0.0045965,-0.0023797,-0.0002917,0.0040332,0.0004815,0.0038463,-0.0023929,-0.0012063,0.0024647,-0.0010436,0.00388,-0.0015885
Italian_Umbria,0.1171113,0.1474776,0.0077941,-0.0279933,0.0200379,-0.0091724,-0.0008617,-0.0024103,0.0052267,0.025918,-0.0003788,0.0053953,-0.0101584,-0.0053214,-0.0024883,0.0005747,0.0069538,0.0005912,0.0010613,-0.0023344,-0.0034107,0.0007556,0.0003149,0.0030391,-0.0010911
Italian_Veneto,0.1256322,0.1482672,0.0303111,-0.0061572,0.0342755,-0.0004532,0.0020416,0.0020047,0.0100346,0.0230415,-0.0022328,0.0054889,-0.0105363,-0.0038189,-0.0026974,0.000953,0.0034796,0.0019557,0.0028518,-0.0042286,-0.0009982,0.0028594,-0.0001309,0.001318,-0.0021479

I have already made the Sicilian average:


Sicilian_Average,0.10168200,0.14606700,-0.00383415,-0.03832935,0.01861865,-0.01259680,-0.00129250,0.00030765,0.01046465,0.02180770,0.0053 5865,0.00349700,-0.00418735,0.00250000,-0.00409415,-0.00483950,-0.00236850,-0.00059115,0.00180165,-0.00500250,0.00039535,0.00175180,-0.00254700,-0.00060250,0.00031915

Sicilian_Average,=Sicilian_East,+Sicilian_West

Target: Sicilian_Average
Distance: 0.0000% / 0.00000000
50.0 Sicilian_East
50.0 Sicilian_West

There is only 1 Sardinian sample in modern pop. averages datasheet, so nothing to do with it.


Combine follow:

Italian_Aosta_Valley
Italian_Veneto
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
Italian_Piedmont
Italian_Northeast
Italian_Lombardy
Italian_Liguria

To and averages?