View Full Version : J-CTS5368--Unexpected Result

07-08-2020, 08:07 PM
Hello! I'm hoping that someone with much more expertise and knowledge about paternal haplogroups can help me out. My father and I recently completed dna testing through 23andme. According to family history/genealogy research and the dna test, we are primarily Northern European (British Isles/Scotland/Ireland, Scandinavian, Finnish). My father's last name is Keeling which, I believe, is a British surname. We can trace the Keelings back to the 1700's in America, and prior to England. There's lots of research on English Keelings going back centuries. My father's y-dna test came back as J-CTS5368. What I'm finding in my research is that this is a very rare haplotype in Britain, and is primarily found in Southern Europe and the Arabian peninsula. So, I'm wondering how the J-CTS5368 haplogroup might have ended up in England? I've tried to see if there are any isolated pockets of this type in Britain, but I can't find any information. Any insight you could offer would be appreciated!

levantino II
07-09-2020, 04:40 AM
There are Keelings from Worcester. They belong to J1 PF7257 haplogroup. You can find them on 17th page of Colorized chart of J1 Y-DNA project, under number 199-02. They form with some Americans branch of PF7257.


How they got on Britain island I don't know. Maybe with Romans, maybe some other way. They didn't do deeper tests so we don't know how old is there relation with other PF7257

J1 DYS388=13
07-09-2020, 08:41 AM
By a calculation which I can explain, the Fisher-Smith-Keylon-Keeling group on that FTDNA J-M267 project is probably at least 20 generations old. That's 500 to 600 years, possibly older than the adoption of surnames. The next closest case seems to be Percoco of Italy, very distant, at least 42 generations (imprecisely), 1050 to 1260 years. The Armenian cluster is at least 51 generations distant, 1275-1530 years. Sort of looks like the Fisher-Smith-Keylon-Keeling group is descended from a Medieval traveler, maybe someone who came back to England with a Crusader. The long wait for results from detailed Y-DNA testing with Family Tree DNA may not leave you any wiser than that.

07-09-2020, 10:35 AM
The J1-PF7257 Keelings will form a new branch somewhere here https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH128/

J1 DYS388=13
07-09-2020, 10:42 AM
My friend RCO is referring you to the state-of-the-art in J1 M267 testing, a long wait beyond the testing you could purchase from Family Tree DNA. If jennyi's dad does belong to PF7257, his data could be added to this page.

El Greco
07-10-2020, 10:10 AM
The best way to unravel your origin, or possible arrival in the UK, is to send information to YFULL. As your RCO instructed. By comparing it with other flags, an estimate of your common closest ancestor will be placed on that phylogenetic tree. With the arrival of other results and their comparison, we will all come to more complete data.


As there are flags of Italy, Bosnia and Herzegovina and several of them from Armenia, my assumption is that your ancestors were residents of the Roman Empire and that they came to the British Isles with the Crusaders.

A similar assumption is made by the branched British Graham family, also a J1 haplogroup, but a different branch.

10-29-2020, 08:55 AM
is not a surprise , Celtic people come from Iran trough north Africa despite the gurus saying they come from central europe but that ones come later and were another batch of celtic people not related to Iranian ones that were masters in virulas and torcs

10-29-2020, 05:12 PM
is not a surprise , Celtic people come from Iran trough north Africa despite the gurus saying they come from central europe but that ones come later and were another batch of celtic people not related to Iranian ones that were masters in virulas and torcs

Haplogroups and genetics are too sciency and too complex to be included in your fantasy/fiction work (a short story? a novel?...), you don't need to explain everything and let the readers' imagination do the rest.

10-29-2020, 10:19 PM
First of all from flags on YFULL you cant tell much about a haplogroup. For example there is almost none sample from Central Asia (or most of the Asia at all) and very few samples where dna tests are very uncommon. Almost all of those Armenian samples actually uploaded and tested by same person. And they are mostly from where Turks live like Azerbaijan and Turkey.. And actually some of them have Turkish surnames (Though it is not that rare for Armenians to have Turkish surname).
There are also many Chinese sample (One was Hui Chinese, they live close to central asia)
And it seems like there are two other Turkish sample at familytreedna beside me. Considering how rare dna testing in Turkey, 3 sample is actually not few.
PH128 most probably originates from Central Asia and through it sub branches it moves through Caucasus and expands in Turkey.

10-31-2020, 03:42 AM
if you wanna see , where the celts from you must follow the trail the archaeological one not just science and DNA fact travel visit the places of the samples and you can study the peoples culture that belong to that samples

11-07-2020, 11:37 PM
J1 was found in mesolithic southern France (Iboussieres25-1 )

11-08-2020, 01:32 AM
Not confirmed.

11-09-2020, 06:50 AM
link please

J1 DYS388=13
11-09-2020, 10:24 AM
It may be an I2.

MathiesonNature2018; https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/downloadable-genotypes-present-day-and-ancient-dna-data-compiled-published-papers