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Advokaten19
07-13-2020, 11:53 AM
1, Are Habesha basically a triangular mix between cushites, omotics and semites, With the cushitic being most prevalent followed by omotic and semitic,

2, In which timeframe did this admixture happen?

3, Where the semites from southern arabia the ones who brought farming to ethiopia? It is quite clear that the semites were the ruling class of ethiopia during their arrival, Since it lead to a language and culture change,

4, Was it a large population influx, Some anthropologist claim their was a conceited effort of colonization by the semites in ethiopia in the form of Settlements done by recent arrived semites from south arabia

5, How much is the semitic dna in the habesha autosomal dna?

6, Could the habesha have been more non african then african in some time after the semitic admixture and before the omotic one?

Granary
07-13-2020, 12:52 PM
Edit: 1. I believe you are largely correct but the deal with the Omotic speakers is not clear, how widespread were they throughout history? The fact the Mota sample has a very different genetic composition than Omotic or Cushitic speakers despite its location and late dating (2500 BCE) is weird.

2. I believe the terminus ante quem(latest date) for the Semitic admixture is around 1000 BCE, just before Dmt appears and before we actually hear of the Old South Semitic languages which are a branch far enough removed from Ethio-semitic. The terminus post quem(earliest date) should be around the 5.9 kiloyear event, according to Agamemnon here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16084-Peopling-of-Arabia/page2

So between 3900 BCE and 1000 BCE, not super helpful but maybe the date of 2200 BCE could also be used as a latest date, but it's debatable, still for all we know Ethiosemitic could have remained confined to the Eritrean coast up to then and Dmt is just the signal of its spread, not the signal of a new people arriving, archeological insights could illuminate our debate, given the arguments so far have been environmental pattern, a bit of genetics and linguistics.

5. This post on Awale's blog should be accurate enough, even if it's old by ancestry genetics' standards:

https://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/02/cushitic-admixture-levels-somalis-as.html

So 20-25% for Ethio-Semitic speakers and 15-20% the North Ethiopian Cushites near them.

6. Insofar as you consider Natufian or Natufian-like ancestry completely non-African and the modern African proxy components as completely African then the Ethio-Semitic average today are actually majority Eurasian. The Oromo migration changed little given they themselves were likely like Somalis, 40% Natufian(-like).

Advokaten19
07-13-2020, 01:02 PM
2. I believe the terminus ante quem(latest date) for the Semitic admixture is around 1000 BCE, just before Dmt appears and before we actually hear of the Old South Semitic languages which are a branch far enough removed from Ethio-semitic. The terminus post quem(earliest date) should be around the 5.9 kiloyear event, according to Agamemnon here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16084-Peopling-of-Arabia/page2

So between 3900 BCE and 1000 BCE, not super helpful but maybe the date of 2200 BCE could also be used as a latest date, but it's debatable, for all we know Ethiosemitic could have remained confined to the Eritrean coast up to then and Dmt is just the signal of its spread, not the signal of a new people arriving.

5. This post on Awale's blog should be accurate enough, even if it's old by ancestry genetics' standards:

https://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/02/cushitic-admixture-levels-somalis-as.html

So 20-25% for Ethio-Semitic speakers and 15-20% the North Ethiopian Cushites near them.

6. Insofar as you consider Natufian or Natufian-like ancestry completely non-African and the modern African proxy components as completely African then the Ethio-Semitic average today are actually majority Eurasian. The Oromo migration changed little given they themselves were likely like Somalis, 40% Natufian(-like).

I do believe that the natufian like is none african, So when you consider the non.african component of the ethiosemites, They are 40 procent eurasian, 20 to 25 procent semitic, Which means they are 60 to 65 procent non black, But some of their phenotypical charasterics disputes that they are at that amount of non african heritage, Most have kinkeish hair, Instead of somalis with looser hair, The semitic side may explain while they are shorter then other cushites

Which amount of omotic do the ethiosemites have

Granary
07-13-2020, 01:07 PM
I do believe that the natufian like is none african, So when you consider the non.african component of the ethiosemites, They are 40 procent eurasian, 20 to 25 procent semitic, Which means they are 60 to 65 procent non black, But some of their phenotypical charasterics disputes that they are at that amount of non african heritage, Most have kinkeish hair, Instead of somalis with looser hair, The semitic side may explain while they are shorter then other cushites

Which amount of omotic do the ethiosemites have

65% might be a bit too high, the highest I can get using vahaduo is just around 60% Eurasian on Eritreans.

The phenotypical differences can be explained through selection and partially to the fact that Natufians, south Semites and possibly the African ancestors of the Horn Africans were all generally darker than other Mesolithic-Neolithic West Eurasians, Semites and tropical Africans respectively.

About height, I imagine that pastoralism vs agriculture and highland vs lowland should play a role too, at least that's what I gather from other cases around the world.

Granary
07-13-2020, 01:10 PM
It's hard to know what Omotic is, if you use one of the Aris averages as a proxy then the blog post I sent you should give you the results, as far I can see vahaduo doesn't contradict them when using the same proxies.

Advokaten19
07-13-2020, 01:43 PM
It's hard to know what Omotic is, if you use one of the Aris averages as a proxy then the blog post I sent you should give you the results, as far I can see vahaduo doesn't contradict them when using the same proxies.

Thank you very good info, I would be delighted if you sent it?

Granary
07-13-2020, 01:50 PM
Thank you very good info, I would be delighted if you sent it?

I did? Maybe you can't see it? I'll try again:

https://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/02/cushitic-admixture-levels-somalis-as.html

Edit: Sorry, was a broken link

drobbah
07-13-2020, 04:55 PM
1, Are Habesha basically a triangular mix between cushites, omotics and semites, With the cushitic being most prevalent followed by omotic and semitic,

The Cushites when they entered the Horn admixed with the local hunter-gatherers who carry a component that peaks in modern Omotic speakers, all Cushites have this admixture but it is quite minor with the exception of the Oromos who carry more of this indigenous ancestry compared to the other major Cushitic groups in the Horn like Somalis,Afars & Agaw.



2, In which timeframe did this admixture happen?

Probably during the Iron age around 10th century BCE



3, Where the semites from southern arabia the ones who brought farming to ethiopia? It is quite clear that the semites were the ruling class of ethiopia during their arrival, Since it lead to a language and culture change,

Ethiopia is a large country, but no agriculture was developed independently in the Horn.Horners independently started cultivating plants like Teff (used for injera) and sorghum.



4, Was it a large population influx, Some anthropologist claim their was a conceited effort of colonization by the semites in ethiopia in the form of Settlements done by recent arrived semites from south arabia

Considering they left a large genetic and cultural imprint on Eritrea and Northern Ethiopia, I think it was definitely a conceited effort to migrate to the Horn.Reminds me of what happened in the Sudan during the later medieval era when th Bedouin tribes of Arabia heard how lush Sudan was and decided to migrate there for better pastures.Perhaps this Semitic tribe heard of opportunities on the other side or faced difficulty in their homeland whether political or enviromental.




5, How much is the semitic dna in the habesha autosomal dna?

Around a quarter of the Habesha genepool derives directly from these Semitic Yemeni migrants.

Target: Ethiopian_Amhara
Distance: 3.8261% / 0.03826138
35.2 Dinka
34.2 Levant_Natufian
22.0 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
8.6 ETH_4500BP

Target: Eritrean
Distance: 3.7421% / 0.03742122
35.8 Dinka
34.8 Levant_Natufian
25.2 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
4.2 ETH_4500BP

Target: Ethiopian_Tigray
Distance: 3.7283% / 0.03728297
35.4 Dinka
32.6 Levant_Natufian
25.2 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
6.4 ETH_4500BP
0.4 MAR_EN




6, Could the habesha have been more non african then african in some time after the semitic admixture and before the omotic one?
After this admixture stabilized and spread in the highlands and even the lowlands (Afars and other extinct lowlanders), I don't think there was any new wave of Eurasian ancestry.The Horn only had two Eurasian waves that draastically altered the demographic landscape and that was the arrival of Cushitic pasotralists in the Neolithic and the semitic colonization of the Eritrea and Northern Ethiopia.There was a major event in the later half of the 16th centruy, which was the Oromo migrations from the south into central,north and eastern Ethiopia.This event affected the entire Horn and probably caused Omotic-like dna to rise in places like central Ethiopia and eastern Ethiopia.

Granary
07-13-2020, 05:19 PM
Stuff
What do you make of the Mota samples? Having such a sample without any real Eurasian during the mid 3rd millenium actually can pose a challenge in creating chronologies for the spread of both Omotic and Cushitic given it's clear early Ethio-Semites mixed with Cushites and not with Mota-like or even Ari-like people.

drobbah
07-13-2020, 05:38 PM
What do you make of the Mota samples? Having such a sample without any real Eurasian during the mid 3rd millenium actually can pose a challenge in creating chronologies for the spread of both Omotic and Cushitic given it's clear early Ethio-Semites mixed with Cushites and not with Mota-like or even Ari-like people.
Mota is nothing special,he represents the local indigenous hunter-gathers of the Horn. I don't see why Mota not having Cushitic ancestry is "posing a challenge".Perhaps Cushitic pastoralists didn't reach his area at that time period.Modern descendants of Mota like the Wolayta or the Aris are heavily Cushitic admixed.

Target: Ethiopian_Ari
Distance: 1.9888% / 0.01988756
54.4 ETH_4500BP
45.4 KEN_Pastoral_N

Target: Ethiopian_Ari_blacksmith
Distance: 1.1363% / 0.01136311
53.4 ETH_4500BP
42.4 KEN_Pastoral_N
3.4 Dinka
0.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator
Distance: 1.0745% / 0.01074478
51.4 ETH_4500BP
47.0 KEN_Pastoral_N
1.0 Dinka
0.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ethiopian_Gumuz
Distance: 1.8086% / 0.01808639
60.2 Dinka
28.6 ETH_4500BP
10.8 KEN_Pastoral_N

Target: Ethiopian_Wolayta
Distance: 1.3386% / 0.01338553
56.4 KEN_Pastoral_N
19.6 ETH_4500BP
13.8 Levant_Natufian
7.8 Dinka
2.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Granary
07-13-2020, 06:04 PM
Mota is nothing special,he represents the local indigenous hunter-gathers of the Horn. I don't see why Mota not having Cushitic ancestry is "posing a challenge".Perhaps Cushitic pastoralists didn't reach his area at that time period.Modern descendants of Mota like the Wolayta or the Aris are heavily Cushitic admixed.

Target: Ethiopian_Ari
Distance: 1.9888% / 0.01988756
54.4 ETH_4500BP
45.4 KEN_Pastoral_N

Target: Ethiopian_Ari_blacksmith
Distance: 1.1363% / 0.01136311
53.4 ETH_4500BP
42.4 KEN_Pastoral_N
3.4 Dinka
0.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.4 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator
Distance: 1.0745% / 0.01074478
51.4 ETH_4500BP
47.0 KEN_Pastoral_N
1.0 Dinka
0.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.2 MAR_Taforalt

Target: Ethiopian_Gumuz
Distance: 1.8086% / 0.01808639
60.2 Dinka
28.6 ETH_4500BP
10.8 KEN_Pastoral_N

Target: Ethiopian_Wolayta
Distance: 1.3386% / 0.01338553
56.4 KEN_Pastoral_N
19.6 ETH_4500BP
13.8 Levant_Natufian
7.8 Dinka
2.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Low distances, but do you think the original Omotic speakers had no Eurasian admixture and were themselves just like or similar to Mota?

drobbah
07-13-2020, 06:23 PM
Low distances, but do you think the original Omotic speakers had no Eurasian admixture and were themselves just like or similar to Mota?
Tbh I have no idea, we don't know how the early PAA speakers or the early divergent Omotic speakers looked like genetically.Whatever they were genetically, they were absorbed by the indigenous population similar to what happened to the original Chadic speakers who entered the Sahel and who's modern descendants are autosomally completely Sahelian-West African

Granary
07-13-2020, 08:11 PM
Tbh I have no idea, we don't know how the early PAA speakers or the early divergent Omotic speakers looked like genetically.Whatever they were genetically, they were absorbed by the indigenous population similar to what happened to the original Chadic speakers who entered the Sahel and who's modern descendants are autosomally completely Sahelian-West African
Are they? The little we have seems to tell me to some extent they also show West Eurasian admixture, at least the ones around lake Chad, maybe not the Hausa:

https://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2016/10/southeast-africans-and-chadians-from.html

Megalophias
07-13-2020, 09:37 PM
Are they? The little we have seems to tell me to some extent they also show West Eurasian admixture, at least the ones around lake Chad, maybe not the Hausa:

https://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2016/10/southeast-africans-and-chadians-from.html
None of those Chadians are Chadic speakers (Kanembu and Daza are Saharan speakers).

In G25 there's one Chadic-speaking group, the Mada. They have a smidge of North African, not necessarily ancient.
51% Yoruba, 43% Dinka, 6% Fulani - distance 1.88%
54% Yoruba, 43% Dinka, 3% Taforalt - distance 1.74%

There's some Chadic speakers in other studies as well, but I can't find them right now.

Granary
07-13-2020, 09:41 PM
None of those Chadians are Chadic speakers (Kanembu and Daza are Saharan speakers).

In G25 there's one Chadic-speaking group, the Mada. They have a smidge of North African, not necessarily ancient.
51% Yoruba, 43% Dinka, 6% Fulani - distance 1.88%
54% Yoruba, 43% Dinka, 3% Taforalt - distance 1.74%

There's some Chadic speakers in other studies as well, but I can't find them right now.

Where did the Kanembu or Daza get their Eurasian ancestry without getting Arabized? Could be Berbers too I guess...

Granary
07-13-2020, 09:47 PM
Also are you sure that's not the Niger-Congo Mada one? They are relatively close geographically.

Megalophias
07-13-2020, 10:06 PM
Yeah, they're definitely the Chadic Mada, from the Mandara Mountain region of North Cameroon (see the meta-data from SGDP).

One of the Daza from Triska et al does look like they could have legit Arab ancestry. Haber et al estimated (using MALDER) that their Toubou sample had two episodes of Eurasian admixture: the earlier 2800–3500 years ago, the later only 170–260 years ago. Seems like the last would likely be Arab and/or Berber, but the earlier something prehistoric.

gihanga.rwanda
07-14-2020, 02:21 AM
The Cushites when they entered the Horn admixed with the local hunter-gatherers who carry a component that peaks in modern Omotic speakers, all Cushites have this admixture but it is quite minor with the exception of the Oromos who carry more of this indigenous ancestry compared to the other major Cushitic groups in the Horn like Somalis,Afars & Agaw.


Probably during the Iron age around 10th century BCE


Ethiopia is a large country, but no agriculture was developed independently in the Horn.Horners independently started cultivating plants like Teff (used for injera) and sorghum.


Considering they left a large genetic and cultural imprint on Eritrea and Northern Ethiopia, I think it was definitely a conceited effort to migrate to the Horn.Reminds me of what happened in the Sudan during the later medieval era when th Bedouin tribes of Arabia heard how lush Sudan was and decided to migrate there for better pastures.Perhaps this Semitic tribe heard of opportunities on the other side or faced difficulty in their homeland whether political or enviromental.



Around a quarter of the Habesha genepool derives directly from these Semitic Yemeni migrants.

Target: Ethiopian_Amhara
Distance: 3.8261% / 0.03826138
35.2 Dinka
34.2 Levant_Natufian
22.0 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
8.6 ETH_4500BP

Target: Eritrean
Distance: 3.7421% / 0.03742122
35.8 Dinka
34.8 Levant_Natufian
25.2 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
4.2 ETH_4500BP

Target: Ethiopian_Tigray
Distance: 3.7283% / 0.03728297
35.4 Dinka
32.6 Levant_Natufian
25.2 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
6.4 ETH_4500BP
0.4 MAR_EN



After this admixture stabilized and spread in the highlands and even the lowlands (Afars and other extinct lowlanders), I don't think there was any new wave of Eurasian ancestry.The Horn only had two Eurasian waves that draastically altered the demographic landscape and that was the arrival of Cushitic pasotralists in the Neolithic and the semitic colonization of the Eritrea and Northern Ethiopia.There was a major event in the later half of the 16th centruy, which was the Oromo migrations from the south into central,north and eastern Ethiopia.This event affected the entire Horn and probably caused Omotic-like dna to rise in places like central Ethiopia and eastern Ethiopia.

If you have access to any Beja samples, could you check to see if they show any Yemenite_Al_Jawf related ancestry?

drobbah
07-14-2020, 02:37 AM
If you have access to any Beja samples, could you check to see if they show any Yemenite_Al_Jawf related ancestry?
I don't have any Beja samples but they are probably significantly admixed with Arab Bedouins based on a pca plot I seen on Awale's blog.The average Beni Amer of Sudan seem more Semitic admixed than the Habesha which is expected considering their location.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kQtBYwNbU1I/VXheE4Eod1I/AAAAAAAACtM/p7ifqc_PHe8/s1600/28mk2sy.jpg.png

Mnemonics
07-14-2020, 03:12 AM
The Eurasian admixture in cushitic populations probably didn't come in one wave. Looking at f4 stats it seems like some modern populations received something anatolian like that wasn't in the latter pastoral neolithic samples and the early pastoral neolithic samples were likely a dead end population.
You can test this running Chimp X PPNB Italy_Imperial
All the Pastoral Neolithic groups are significantly negative (3-6.9) whereas Somali.DG and myself are slightly positive.

NetNomad
07-14-2020, 09:43 AM
Low distances, but do you think the original Omotic speakers had no Eurasian admixture and were themselves just like or similar to Mota?

There is no way the first/early Omotic speakers were like the Mota sample. He actually represents something pre-Omotic.

I think the early Omotics were likely the same or similar to the early Cushites.


What do you make of the Mota samples? Having such a sample without any real Eurasian during the mid 3rd millenium actually can pose a challenge in creating chronologies for the spread of both Omotic and Cushitic given it's clear early Ethio-Semites mixed with Cushites and not with Mota-like or even Ari-like people.

Even today the Iraqw and Datoga in North Tanzania who are clearly of partial Cushitic descent live right next to some unadmixed Hadza hunter-gatherers (some Hadzas score just one HG AC component). I don't see why such scenarios wouldn't exist in the past, especially given the lower population densities.

East African hunter-gatherers are still being found Kenya's Ancient DNA record as late as 400 years before the present while South Cushites have been there since ~6-4 kyBP.

gihanga.rwanda
07-14-2020, 11:12 AM
I don't have any Beja samples but they are probably significantly admixed with Arab Bedouins based on a pca plot I seen on Awale's blog.The average Beni Amer of Sudan seem more Semitic admixed than the Habesha which is expected considering their location.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kQtBYwNbU1I/VXheE4Eod1I/AAAAAAAACtM/p7ifqc_PHe8/s1600/28mk2sy.jpg.png

Thanks! I remember that study and graph. Do we have any samples from Cushitic speakers in Eritrea? I wonder if the excess Arabian in the northern HOA predated the introduction of pre-Ethio-Semitic since the admixture is ubiquitous in that part of the region. For example, do Eritrean Cushitic speakers have more Yemeni-like ancestry than more inland Ethio-Semitic speakers?

NetNomad
07-14-2020, 12:21 PM
Thanks! I remember that study and graph. Do we have any samples from Cushitic speakers in Eritrea? I wonder if the excess Arabian in the northern HOA predated the introduction of pre-Ethio-Semitic since the admixture is ubiquitous in that part of the region. For example, do Eritrean Cushitic speakers have more Yemeni-like ancestry than more inland Ethio-Semitic speakers?

Sahos plot near Tigrinya speakers/Tigrayans, but have less Ethiopian HG affinity.

This isn't based on academic sampling, but anecdotal evidence (Saho and Bilen 23andMe users).

drobbah
07-14-2020, 02:37 PM
Thanks! I remember that study and graph. Do we have any samples from Cushitic speakers in Eritrea? I wonder if the excess Arabian in the northern HOA predated the introduction of pre-Ethio-Semitic since the admixture is ubiquitous in that part of the region. For example, do Eritrean Cushitic speakers have more Yemeni-like ancestry than more inland Ethio-Semitic speakers?
I doubt Yemeni-like ancestry did predate it, because the only other source of Iran_N ancestry would be Egypt but that would have to accompany significant Anatolian Farmer ancestry which we don't see in the Horn.It's clear, that this Yemeni Semitic tribe brought the Ethio-Semitic branch to the Horn and this is seen in both autosomal and uniparentals of the Horn

gihanga.rwanda
07-14-2020, 02:54 PM
I doubt Yemeni-like ancestry did predate it, because the only other source of Iran_N ancestry would be Egypt but that would have to accompany significant Anatolian Farmer ancestry which we don't see in the Horn.It's clear, that this Yemeni Semitic tribe brought the Ethio-Semitic branch to the Horn and this is seen in both autosomal and uniparentals of the Horn

Please don’t get me wrong I believe that this excess Arabian ancestry arrived from the vicinity of Yemen not Egypt or elsewhere. I am just not sure if we can attribute it to the introduction of Ethio-Semitic since such ancestry is found in almost equal proportions among various groups of Cushitic speakers, northern, central, and eastern. I am not familiar with the archeological record of the northern HOA so I am not sure if there are any other probable archeological cultures who could’ve been responsible for this excess Arabian besides Ethio-Semitic.

drobbah
07-14-2020, 03:42 PM
Please don’t get me wrong I believe that this excess Arabian ancestry arrived from the vicinity of Yemen not Egypt or elsewhere. I am just not sure if we can attribute it to the introduction of Ethio-Semitic since such ancestry is found in almost equal proportions among various groups of Cushitic speakers, northern, central,
Ethio-Semitic speakers live in Northern Ethiopia/Eritrea so it doesn't surprise me that local Northern Cushite speakers like Agaws or Saho have significant Semitic admixture although not as much as actual Ethio-Semitic speakers.Central Ethiopia went through many demographic changes, it was once populated by many Ethio-Semitic ethnic groups that are now extinct due to the Oromo migrations and assimilation of these people.



and eastern.
Eastern Ethiopia had the Harla Ethio-Semitic speakers who were in close contact in Somalis but have now gone extinct and the modern Hararis who are autosomally extremely Northern shifted and are the last remnants of Ethio-Semitic speaking people in Eastern Ethiopia and that's also because of the Oromo migrations from the south



I am not familiar with the archeological record of the northern HOA so I am not sure if there are any other probable archeological cultures who could’ve been responsible for this excess Arabian besides Ethio-Semitic.
For the highlands of Ethiopia & Eritrea, there is no other explanation for Iran_N ancestry and why a quarter of Amhara men carry J1.It is the Somalis who's source of minor Yemeni ancestry is more layered, there are recent Yemeni ancestry for some individuals or some who's ancestry probably dates back to the medieval Islamic era and frontier clans who intermixed with Cushitic speakers like Oromos who carry Semitic ancestry aswell.

Granary
07-14-2020, 04:04 PM
Please don’t get me wrong I believe that this excess Arabian ancestry arrived from the vicinity of Yemen not Egypt or elsewhere. I am just not sure if we can attribute it to the introduction of Ethio-Semitic since such ancestry is found in almost equal proportions among various groups of Cushitic speakers, northern, central, and eastern. I am not familiar with the archeological record of the northern HOA so I am not sure if there are any other probable archeological cultures who could’ve been responsible for this excess Arabian besides Ethio-Semitic.

What else could you attribute it to? I mean I guess you can make the argument that given how ancient the admixture is with time it would become ubiquitous to both Cushites and Ethio-Semites living near one another in the highlands, but to separate the 20-25% influx from the linguistic change would mean to argue implictly that both the genetic input had no linguistic change AND that the linguistic change had no genetic input, which seems strange to me.

gihanga.rwanda
07-14-2020, 04:41 PM
What else could you attribute it to? I mean I guess you can make the argument that given how ancient the admixture is with time it would become ubiquitous to both Cushites and Ethio-Semites living near one another in the highlands, but to separate the 20-25% influx from the linguistic change would mean to argue implictly that both the genetic input had no linguistic change AND that the linguistic change had no genetic input, which seems strange to me.

I honestly don’t know and was posing the question to the forum for more knowledgeable members to address. I don’t know enough about the archeological record in the northern HOA. I think it’s worth investigating.

gihanga.rwanda
07-14-2020, 04:58 PM
Ethio-Semitic speakers live in Northern Ethiopia/Eritrea so it doesn't surprise me that local Northern Cushite speakers like Agaws or Saho have significant Semitic admixture although not as much as actual Ethio-Semitic speakers.Central Ethiopia went through many demographic changes, it was once populated by many Ethio-Semitic ethnic groups that are now extinct due to the Oromo migrations and assimilation of these people.


Eastern Ethiopia had the Harla Ethio-Semitic speakers who were in close contact in Somalis but have now gone extinct and the modern Hararis who are autosomally extremely Northern shifted and are the last remnants of Ethio-Semitic speaking people in Eastern Ethiopia and that's also because of the Oromo migrations from the south



For the highlands of Ethiopia & Eritrea, there is no other explanation for Iran_N ancestry and why a quarter of Amhara men carry J1.It is the Somalis who's source of minor Yemeni ancestry is more layered, there are recent Yemeni ancestry for some individuals or some who's ancestry probably dates back to the medieval Islamic era and frontier clans who intermixed with Cushitic speakers like Oromos who carry Semitic ancestry aswell.

Apparently the Bilen and Saho from Eritrea are just as northern shifted as the Tigrinya.

Yeah maybe you’re right and the ubiquitous spread of the excess Arabian in the northern highlands/lowlands can be explained by assimilation and language shifts between Ethio-Semitic to various Cushitic languages and vis-a-versa. I can imagine that things could’ve been more fluid before the introduction of Orthodox Christianity and then Islam. For example, can you imagine a scenario where the pre-Saho-Afar assimilated Ethio-Semitic related groups as they pushed into the triangle? Have you observed any differences between the Afar in Ethiopia vs. those in Eritrea and Djibouti?

Granary
07-14-2020, 05:58 PM
There is no way the first/early Omotic speakers were like the Mota sample. He actually represents something pre-Omotic.

I think the early Omotics were likely the same or similar to the early Cushites.



Even today the Iraqw and Datoga in North Tanzania who are clearly of partial Cushitic descent live right next to some unadmixed Hadza hunter-gatherers (some Hadzas score just one HG AC component). I don't see why such scenarios wouldn't exist in the past, especially given the lower population densities.

East African hunter-gatherers are still being found Kenya's Ancient DNA record as late as 400 years before the present while South Cushites have been there since ~6-4 kyBP.
I guess the Omotic speakers being originally like Cushites would fit in a language tree of Afro-Asiatic where Cushitic and Omotic are closest to one another but I guess there are as many trees as possible combinations at this point.

NetNomad
07-14-2020, 07:22 PM
I guess the Omotic speakers being originally like Cushites would fit in a language tree of Afro-Asiatic where Cushitic and Omotic are closest to one another but I guess there are as many trees as possible combinations at this point.

IMO, North Omotic is likely some early branch of Cushitic. While South Omotic is likely North Omotic + a language isolate. My take on this.

Granary
07-14-2020, 07:34 PM
IMO, North Omotic is likely some early branch of Cushitic. While South Omotic is likely North Omotic + a language isolate. My take on this.
Another question, in your opinion when did Cushitic-Omotic enter the Horn of African and through what route?

drobbah
07-14-2020, 10:46 PM
IMO, North Omotic is likely some early branch of Cushitic. While South Omotic is likely North Omotic + a language isolate. My take on this.
Based on what linguistic evidence? North Omotic doesn't share core words related to pastoralism which has been reconstructed for proto-cushitic.It's clear Omotic is a separate branch of the AA macro-family

Granary
07-15-2020, 12:22 AM
The Eurasian admixture in cushitic populations probably didn't come in one wave. Looking at f4 stats it seems like some modern populations received something anatolian like that wasn't in the latter pastoral neolithic samples and the early pastoral neolithic samples were likely a dead end population.
You can test this running Chimp X PPNB Italy_Imperial
All the Pastoral Neolithic groups are significantly negative (3-6.9) whereas Somali.DG and myself are slightly positive.

Dead end even considering the Iraqw or Cushitic influence in Nilotes in Tanzania and Western Kenya?

NetNomad
07-15-2020, 06:16 AM
Another question, in your opinion when did Cushitic-Omotic enter the Horn of African and through what route?

Can't really say with certainty, it is still being researched.


Based on what linguistic evidence? North Omotic doesn't share core words related to pastoralism which has been reconstructed for proto-cushitic.It's clear Omotic is a separate branch of the AA macro-family

Several linguists have considered North Omotic as something called West Cushitic.

The questionable status of Omotic within Afro-Asiatic is mainly due to South Omotic which has a definite heavy non-AA substrate.

drobbah
07-15-2020, 09:24 PM
Dead end even considering the Iraqw or Cushitic influence in Nilotes in Tanzania and Western Kenya?
He said only the Early Pastoralists samples were probably dead end which is probably true considering they had a unique admixture ratios between Natufian/Dinka/Mota

Granary
07-15-2020, 09:35 PM
He said only the Early Pastoralists samples were probably dead end which is probably true considering they had a unique admixture ratios between Natufian/Dinka/Mota
What are the main groups whose sampels we have analyized? Are groups from the Savanna Pastoral Neolithic the same as "early pastoralists"?

drobbah
07-15-2020, 09:47 PM
What are the main groups whose sampels we have analyized? Are groups from the Savanna Pastoral Neolithic the same as "early pastoralists"?
Check the G25 sample list, they are labelled as KEN or TZA PN (Pastoral Neolithic)

Mnemonics
07-16-2020, 04:43 AM
He said only the Early Pastoralists samples were probably dead end which is probably true considering they had a unique admixture ratios between Natufian/Dinka/Mota

The Dinka/Mota admixture ratio for one of them ( I12533: 0.281 / 0.217) isn't really that different from the Tanzania_PastoralN (0.326 / 0.218) or Kenya_Pastoral Neolithic ( 0.308/0.269 ), The lower coverage sample is much stranger ( 0.126 / 0.326), but the oddest part about them is that their Eurasian ancestry can actually be successfully modeled with Natufian. We may be looking at successive waves of Levantine ancestry.

NetNomad
07-16-2020, 10:57 AM
The Dinka/Mota admixture ratio for one of them ( I12533: 0.281 / 0.217) isn't really that different from the Tanzania_PastoralN (0.326 / 0.218) or Kenya_Pastoral Neolithic ( 0.308/0.269 ), The lower coverage sample is much stranger ( 0.126 / 0.326), but the oddest part about them is that their Eurasian ancestry can actually be successfully modeled with Natufian. We may be looking at successive waves of Levantine ancestry.

Should we really call it Levantine? Some of that Natufian-like ancestry may have been in Northern Africa for as long as Native Americans have been in the Americas, maybe even a few thousands years earlier (especially with M1 and U6).

MENA may be a better term.

Granary
07-16-2020, 02:11 PM
Should we really call it Levantine? Some of that Natufian-like ancestry may have been in Northern Africa for as long as Native Americans have been in the Americas, maybe even a few thousands years earlier (especially with M1 and U6).

MENA may be a better term.

Red Sea admixture might be also on point, considering it peaks in Coptic Egyptians, Arabians and Horn Africans

Mnemonics
07-16-2020, 07:42 PM
I'm very suspicious of the idea that direct Natufian like ancestry makes up the bulk of the Eurasian ancestry in NE Africa, neanderthal admixture rates, the rates of SLC24A5 in pristinely Cushitic populations, the TMRCA of certain mtdna lineages, and the possession of sheep and goats, all make a Neolithic Levantine-like population a likelier source. Pastoralists are surprisingly mobile it may even be possible for them to have spread from the Levant to Egypt-Nubia within a few hundred years without heavily mixing with a native Egyptian hunter gatherer population.

Fun fact: Kenya: I8904 may be a Proto Somali, he seems to have the same elevated Iran_N and low Mota ancestry. It's a very low coverage sample only 100K snps but it's like a 3-5 % more Eurasian version of Somali.DG and he likely has some branch of E-v12 and has one of the most common Somali mtdnas: L3a2a.

drobbah
07-16-2020, 08:26 PM
I'm very suspicious of the idea that direct Natufian like ancestry makes up the bulk of the Eurasian ancestry in NE Africa, neanderthal admixture rates, the rates of SLC24A5 in pristinely Cushitic populations, the TMRCA of certain mtdna lineages, and the possession of sheep and goats, all make a Neolithic Levantine-like population a likelier source. Pastoralists are surprisingly mobile it may even be possible for them to have spread from the Levant to Egypt-Nubia within a few hundred years without heavily mixing with a native Egyptian hunter gatherer population.

Fun fact: Kenya: I8904 may be a Proto Somali, he seems to have the same elevated Iran_N and low Mota ancestry. It's a very low coverage sample only 100K snps but it's like a 3-5 % more Eurasian version of Somali.DG and he likely has some branch of E-v12 and has one of the most common Somali mtdnas: L3a2a.
Somalis, the ancient South Cushitic pastoralists and most Horners don't score Anatolian Farmer on nMonte.I think that's the main reason that we score Natufian without actually being directly half Natufian since we have the Levantine Neolithic light skinned snp which the Natufians lacked but also generally lack the heavy ANF ancestry associated with PPNB and PPNC.Do you think it's possible Cushites derive their ancestry from a unique Levantine source that is neither Natufian (we all get bad fits with them) nor the ANF heavy PPNB/PPNC?

Granary
07-16-2020, 09:05 PM
Somalis, the ancient South Cushitic pastoralists and most Horners don't score Anatolian Farmer on nMonte.I think that's the main reason that we score Natufian without actually being directly half Natufian since we have the Levantine Neolithic light skinned snp which the Natufians lacked but also generally lack the heavy ANF ancestry associated with PPNB and PPNC.Do you think it's possible Cushites derive their ancestry from a unique Levantine source that is neither Natufian (we all get bad fits with them) nor the ANF heavy PPNB/PPNC?

That leaves a window of time between around 12000-9500 BCE and 8000-7500 BCE for such a population to have existed in the southern Levant, not impossible.

Mnemonics
07-16-2020, 09:57 PM
I don't know what is causing the aversion to Anatolian admixture in nmonte but fstats seem to imply that there is something Anatolian like in Cushitic speakers. Maybe, it's the smaller snp set. I think the most likely situation is that there were waves of Dinka-like and or Levant ancestry and each wave contained some distinct Eurasian element.

The Tanzania pastoralists seem to be almost purely Dinka + Mota + PPNB without much Iran_N, 0-5% depending on the model. The Elmenteitan's were far to heterogeneous to model as one population. The rest of the latter Kenyan pastoralists were intermediate in this Iran_N affinity between the Tanzanians and Modern Somalis.

I tried to verify this Iran_N affinity trend using Chimp X iberomaurusian Iran_N Using the single most representative sample and it looks like it might be legit.
Mnemonics zscore: 3.34
Somali.DG zscore: 3.154
Kenya_Pastoral zscore: 1..351
Kenya_Pastoral_Elementeitan_o_lowIran zscore: 0.239
Tanzania_Pastoral zscore: -0.272

drobbah
07-16-2020, 10:20 PM
I don't know what is causing the aversion to Anatolian admixture in nmonte but fstats seem to imply that there is something Anatolian like in Cushitic speakers. Maybe, it's the smaller snp set. I think the most likely situation is that there were waves of Dinka-like and or Levant ancestry and each wave contained some distinct Eurasian element.

The Tanzania pastoralists seem to be almost purely Dinka + Mota + PPNB without much Iran_N, 0-5% depending on the model. The Elmenteitan's were far to heterogeneous to model as one population. The rest of the latter Kenyan pastoralists were intermediate in this Iran_N affinity between the Tanzanians and Modern Somalis.

I tried to verify this Iran_N affinity trend using Chimp X iberomaurusian Iran_N Using the single most representative sample and it looks like it might be legit.
Mnemonics zscore: 3.34
Somali.DG zscore: 3.154
Kenya_Pastoral zscore: 1..351
Kenya_Pastoral_Elementeitan_o_lowIran zscore: 0.239
Tanzania_Pastoral zscore: -0.272
Wouldn't it be to early for Iran_N ancestry to be in Africa? I thought Iranian ancestry arrived in the Levant during chalcolithic?

Mnemonics
07-16-2020, 10:32 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Iran_N ancestry had reached the Levant as early as the Shepherd Neolithic. Also we may be looking at some cross Red Sea exchange.

drobbah
07-16-2020, 10:43 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Iran_N ancestry had reached the Levant as early as the Shepherd Neolithic. Also we may be looking at some cross Red Sea exchange.
I was thinking the same thing, perhaps there was very early contact with the Arabian Peninsula.I remember reading on Awale's blog years ago about a possible Cushitic substratum in the modern South Arabian languages.

Granary
07-17-2020, 03:58 PM
I was thinking the same thing, perhaps there was very early contact with the Arabian Peninsula.I remember reading on Awale's blog years ago about a possible Cushitic substratum in the modern South Arabian languages.

If that's true that would be Cushites before they got their East African admixture?

drobbah
07-17-2020, 04:48 PM
If that's true that would be Cushites before they got their East African admixture?
Do you mean Ethio HG ancestry? I guess hypothetically if the early Cushites received this minor Arabian contact on the Sudanese Red Sea hills, I don't see a reason why they would have Ethio HG prior to departing for the Horn.

Granary
07-18-2020, 01:02 PM
Do you mean Ethio HG ancestry? I guess hypothetically if the early Cushites received this minor Arabian contact on the Sudanese Red Sea hills, I don't see a reason why they would have Ethio HG prior to departing for the Horn.

What I mean is that a Cushitic subtratum implies that Cushites were in Arabia but we don't have much evidence of Mota or Dinka like ancestry in southern Arabia, which we should expect given a substratum implies genetic continuity to some extent, so my idea was that those Cushites were almost completely Natufian-like.

Mnemonics
07-20-2020, 05:06 PM
I've been refining my models using the new fstat allsnps mode and qpwave. It's starting to seem like this excess Iran_N affinity is a potential a result of Levant_BA admixture into a Kenya_PastoralIA-like population.

I try to run exclusively modern models, and compare them to ancient only models, and it seems like the best fitting modern model for Somali's is a Maasai + Samaritan. The modern fit seems to be best when Yoruba is not in the right pop list, likely due to excess West African in Masai.

drobbah
07-20-2020, 07:06 PM
I've been refining my models using the new fstat allsnps mode and qpwave. It's starting to seem like this excess Iran_N affinity is a potential a result of Levant_BA admixture into a Kenya_PastoralIA-like population.

I try to run exclusively modern models, and compare them to ancient only models, and it seems like the best fitting modern model for Somali's is a Maasai + Samaritan. The modern fit seems to be best when Yoruba is not in the right pop list, likely due to excess West African in Masai.
The Iran_N/GEO_CHG ancestry in the individual Somali samples isn't uniform.The samples that completely lack it are Somali15,Ayodo_23s,Ayodo_41S,Ayodo_61S with Mota ancestries ranging from as low as 2% to 15%.The Somali Iran_N is probably from different sources,some have it due to recent Arab admixture while others especially the Kenyan Somalis have it due to intermixing with Boranas who gained Ethio-Semitic admixture from their Northern Oromo counterparts, the Borana also mediated Iran_N ancestry to the Rendille imo

https://i.imgur.com/d8VAIxt.png
https://i.imgur.com/28Or8xT.png

drobbah
07-20-2020, 07:24 PM
I try to run exclusively modern models, and compare them to ancient only models, and it seems like the best fitting modern model for Somali's is a Maasai + Samaritan. The modern fit seems to be best when Yoruba is not in the right pop list, likely due to excess West African in Masai.
Could you trying running model similar to the g25 posted below? I have a feeling using the KEN IA,ancient Egyptian samples and the Arabian Bedouin will yield better results

https://i.imgur.com/oSfJD2r.png

Mnemonics
07-20-2020, 09:43 PM
BedouinB works worse than Samaritan, the Egyptian samples are very low coverage so I try to avoid using them. I might try using the Egyptian sample from that recent near eastern study.

Granary
07-20-2020, 10:30 PM
BedouinB works worse than Samaritan, the Egyptian samples are very low coverage so I try to avoid using them. I might try using the Egyptian sample from that recent near eastern study.

You mean the ancient Egyptian samples? I thought the G25 samples were all high quality outside the explicitly low res ones.

Mnemonics
07-20-2020, 10:43 PM
You mean the ancient Egyptian samples? I thought the G25 samples were all high quality outside the explicitly low res ones.

Nah, the Third Intermediate period Egyptian samples in the 1240K dataset are very low quality, I think one had only 69k snps. There are a few unlabeled low quality samples on G25. The Natufians are pretty low coverage as well.

Edit: I tried to check out if the preference for Samaritan was legit.

San Somali.DG Samaritan BedouinB Z Score = -1.35
San Somali.DG Samaritan Yemenite_Jew Z Score = -0.103
San Somali.DG Samaritan Iraqi_Jew Z Score = -2.121
San Somali.DG Samaritan Palestinian Z Score = -4.058

It's just a bit under the significant range for most but it is pretty consistent.

Mnemonics
07-22-2020, 08:22 PM
I've been trying to figure out why G25 is not replicating what i'm seeing in qpadm. It seems like there is something funky going on with African ancestry. my African component is entirely Dinka-like according to fstats, so I tried running an F4 ratio test to find my ratio of Dinka ancestry and then subtracted that percent from my coordinates in an attempt to retrieve a more pristine Eurasian element. What I got was much more inline with the Fstats. I'll attach the models later.

Mnemonics
07-22-2020, 08:41 PM
All ancients minus pastoralists

38637


38638


All ancients minus pastoralists and egyptians

38639

38640

drobbah
07-22-2020, 08:46 PM
All ancients minus pastoralists

38637


38638


All ancients minus pastoralists and egyptians

38639

38640
If this is supposed to represent the West Eurasian side of your ancestry, why is Mota showing up in the models?

Mnemonics
07-22-2020, 09:12 PM
I only subtracted Dinka, mostly because I have negligible amounts of Mota according to fstats. I'll try subtracting Mota later.

ThaYamamoto
07-23-2020, 04:23 PM
I've been trying to figure out why G25 is not replicating what i'm seeing in qpadm. It seems like there is something funky going on with African ancestry. my African component is entirely Dinka-like according to fstats, so I tried running an F4 ratio test to find my ratio of Dinka ancestry and then subtracted that percent from my coordinates in an attempt to retrieve a more pristine Eurasian element. What I got was much more inline with the Fstats. I'll attach the models later.

I think David's mentioned suttin about African ancestries and the G25 not being fully optimized to deal wit African stuff....that why I take everything wit a pinch of salt

Advokaten19
07-24-2020, 12:42 AM
What level of Omotic admixture exists within Habesha and northern cushites?

It seems a bit weird that a group with 60 procent eaurasian admixture, 40 procent natufian like and 20 procent semitic. Has 4c hair

While somalis who are only 40 procent eurasian mostly have wavy hair

Does environment play a role in this. Maybe the half desert climate in Somalia is not conducive to more coarse hair?

beyoku
07-24-2020, 03:07 PM
What level of Omotic admixture exists within Habesha and northern cushites?

It seems a bit weird that a group with 60 procent eaurasian admixture, 40 procent natufian like and 20 procent semitic. Has 4c hair

While somalis who are only 40 procent eurasian mostly have wavy hair

Does environment play a role in this. Maybe the half desert climate in Somalia is not conducive to more coarse hair?

My suggestion is instead of looking at the climate of Somalia, you should analyze the climate over time in region of where Horners northern Ancestors come from.

xenus
07-24-2020, 04:57 PM
There are too many separate waves going into Africa and too much movement within Africa to
Goat pastoralism reached Africa +/- 7k years ago
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-24048-0

Goats were proposed to have been domesticated approximately 10,000 years ago in the region called the Fertile Crescent in southwest Asia14. From this area, goats were thought to have been introduced to southeast Asia via two routes, one through the Indian subcontinent and the other across the central Asian steppes and China14,17,18, although the age of the goat dissemination to Asia has not been clearly elucidated. Introduction to the African continent from southwest Asia is thought to have occurred roughly 7,000 years ago and spread rapidly into the central Sahara and the Ethiopian highlands around 5,000 ~ 6,500 years ago.

I think someone mentioned low anatolia_n in east africa
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05649-9

Our finding that the Levant_ChL population can be well-modeled as a three-way admixture between Levant_N (57%), Anatolia_N (26%), and Iran_ChL (17%), while the Levant_BA_South can be modeled as a mixture of Levant_N (58%) and Iran_ChL (42%), but has little if any additional Anatolia_N-related ancestry, can only be explained by multiple episodes of population movement. The presence of Iran_ChL-related ancestry in both populations – but not in the earlier Levant_N – suggests a history of spread into the Levant of peoples related to Iranian agriculturalists, which must have occurred at least by the time of the Chalcolithic. The Anatolian_N component present in the Levant_ChL but not in the Levant_BA_South sample suggests that there was also a separate spread of Anatolian-related people into the region. The Levant_BA_South population may thus represent a remnant of a population that formed after an initial spread of Iran_ChL-related ancestry into the Levant that was not affected by the spread of an Anatolia_N-related population, or perhaps a reintroduction of a population without Anatolia_N-related ancestry to the region. We additionally find that the Levant_ChL population does not serve as a likely source of the Levantine-related ancestry in present-day East African populations (see Supplementary Note 4)24.

We've got YDNA T-M184
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184#/media/File:Distribution_Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA_II.svg
And then we've got MTDNA R0
https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fsrep25472/MediaObjects/41598_2016_Article_BFsrep25472_Fig2_HTML.jpg

drobbah
07-24-2020, 06:33 PM
R0a was probably in North Africa prior to the Neolithic

Advokaten19
07-25-2020, 03:11 AM
My suggestion is instead of looking at the climate of Somalia, you should analyze the climate over time in region of where Horners northern Ancestors come from.

Well somalis and habeshas share the same natufian like ancestors who probably came from the fertile crescent

The semitic component of habeshas also came from a region near the fertile crescent with similar climate

So im pretty sure the omotic part of habeshas must be of a substantial element

Quality
07-25-2020, 06:02 AM
The Iran_N/GEO_CHG ancestry in the individual Somali samples isn't uniform.The samples that completely lack it are Somali15,Ayodo_23s,Ayodo_41S,Ayodo_61S with Mota ancestries ranging from as low as 2% to 15%.The Somali Iran_N is probably from different sources,some have it due to recent Arab admixture while others especially the Kenyan Somalis have it due to intermixing with Boranas who gained Ethio-Semitic admixture from their Northern Oromo counterparts, the Borana also mediated Iran_N ancestry to the Rendille imo

https://i.imgur.com/d8VAIxt.png
https://i.imgur.com/28Or8xT.png

I am looking at the chart you posted and I am finding it weird how the Somalis with the Iran_N/CHG admixture and the Somalis without the Iran_N/CHG admixture both have similar SSA/West Eurasian ratio of 55/45 (give or take a few points). There doesn't seem to be any difference, compare this to the differences that exist between Somalia Somalis and the borana admixed Kenyan Somalis.

Borana are more SSA adjacent than Somalis and this is clearly reflected in the West Eurasian/SSA ratio of most Somali_Kenya_Ayodo sampled on the chart, for they are a bit more SSA than Somali:Somali examples.

If Arabian admixture was present in some Somalis and not others, then i'd expect there to be more difference in the SSA/West Eurasian ratio.

This makes me believe more and more that whatever the predominant mena like ancestry in cushitic people is, it was a fairly unique one from what we currently have on file (like natufians for example), which is kinda obvious I suppose. Maybe if there was a better proxy for the west eurasian ancestry in Somalis then it would cause the slight differences in the west eurasian components in Somalis to decrease or disappear all together.

Awale
07-25-2020, 10:04 PM
The Iran_N/GEO_CHG ancestry in the individual Somali samples isn't uniform.The samples that completely lack it are Somali15,Ayodo_23s,Ayodo_41S,Ayodo_61S with Mota ancestries ranging from as low as 2% to 15%.The Somali Iran_N is probably from different sources,some have it due to recent Arab admixture while others especially the Kenyan Somalis have it due to intermixing with Boranas who gained Ethio-Semitic admixture from their Northern Oromo counterparts, the Borana also mediated Iran_N ancestry to the Rendille imo

Glad someone finally noted this cos I noticed a good while ago while tinkering with the Somali samples that two of what I would consider outliers completely lack South-Arabian ancestry in even some of the most overfit models I could come up with. That would be Somali-15 and Ayodo-41s. The rest have some, though the amounts can vary quite a bit. I also would not characterize this ancestry as "Iran_N" since it does not seem to come from wildly different sources. Take every single sample in the ancient and modern averages, remove Horners and various Southeast Africans then run the individual Somalis and you will see- :

https://i.imgur.com/OTqneW6.png

-that it looks like the same old South-Arabian admixture found all over the Horn region with Jawf Yemenis being overwhelmingly favored as per usual. And, personally, I think probably none of it comes from recent Arabian admixture but from intra-Horn admixture:


https://i.imgur.com/P8DgyXz.png
https://i.imgur.com/FLlb5IQ.png
https://i.imgur.com/A5Nj5gB.png
https://i.imgur.com/qN0BMbn.png
https://i.imgur.com/TJJE78A.png
https://i.imgur.com/EXVyNmI.png


Use Somali-15 for a sort of "pure-bred Somali" component then throw in Mota and Yemenis along with any modern Cushitic or Ethiosemitic ethnic group and watch, as you can see above, how South-Arabian ancestry pretty much disappears. In fact, it's Mota related ancestry that consistently persists. And the most favored fellow Horners are by far Oromos which linguistically make sense:


https://i.imgur.com/Wvy3ZTb.png
https://i.imgur.com/EXVyNmI.png

And it says something that the South-Arabian admixture completely disappears when only Oromos are used. I think if this isn't some G25 messery and is legit somehow, it actually might make some sense with linguistic theories I've seen and referenced in the past myself on this forum (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16556-can-somebody-provide-me-some-somali-GEDmatch-results&p=551537#post551537). Basically, Christopher Ehret, if I'm not mistaken, believes that the original speakers of what is ancestral to the Coastal-Northern Somali dialects (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WTkVtV2lrTkN2Y0k/view?usp=sharing) came from areas further south around what is now the Ogaden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Region), probably somewhere between their closest linguistic relatives (Maay, Tunni, Jiddu etc) in Southern Somalia and the original spread of Oromo speakers around Borena (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Borena,+Ethiopia/@6.4134097,39.8355944,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x17b93193f6e3e463:0x19eaf54ec040f 84!8m2!3d4.7234632!4d38.9876741), Bale (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bale,+Ethiopia/@6.9908036,40.5052793,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x17c9c06d6e2ccfa5:0xf2aba1a3172e8 a5a!8m2!3d6.7606468!4d40.3088626) and Arsi (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Arsi,+Ethiopia/@7.5587991,40.359226,7z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x17b50d6c8d8a05dd:0xabec702dfbe71 7e3!8m2!3d7.9339881!4d39.6518165) and that these people sometime around 1,500-2,000 years ago or so migrated into North-Central Somalia and Somalized what were previously non-Somali speaking Cushites of some sort whom Ehret believes would have spoken something closer to Saho-Afar.

There isn't actually linguistic evidence for that last bit as I pointed out here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16556-can-somebody-provide-me-some-somali-GEDmatch-results&p=551537#post551537) but even so, if these genetic results are legit it does make one wonder. Somali-15 and a few like him might be preserving some pretty old diversity while everyone else is a mark of Horners from further south and west carrying admixture from the Highlands mixing into the Somali gene pool and, ironically enough, bringing the Somali language with them. It might make sense with some other things as well. I've noticed that the more north you go into Somali territories the more the culture seems closer to other Coastal-Cushites like Afars and Sahos but the more you go south, like with the Rahanweyn, the more similar it looks to Oromos. Though I admit this could just be due to the obvious geographic proximity. But there's also the fact that V32 seems pretty common among Oromos and suddenly seems less common the more northwest you go in Somali territory where T becomes more common. Something I noted to Lank about this via PMs:


It even makes some sense with uniparentals. The origin story of the Darod clan, despite supposedly being about a Muslim saint, has clear Waqist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waaqeffanna) themes often found in Ethiopia. Saint appears atop a sacred tree, local people give him a local daughter so he comes down, marries her and guides them. This is a common Waqist story (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-015-9181-z) and the "daughter" in this context is the daughter of the Dir clan chief. Darods, a clan rich in V32, according to oral tradition, intermarry with Dirs, a clan rich in T-M70, through the maternal line to become Somalis like them. I think what Somalis are recounting here is actually the Somalization of North-Central Somalia. Similar to Arabians with the "Adnan" & "Qahtan" story (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12680-DNA-result-Quraish-tribe-quot-Makkah-quot-Saud-Arabia&p=311411#post311411), Somalis probably have things assed backwards and the Somalized people are in fact Dir in this story and the Darod in this story are a representation of a people from further south and west in the Horn coming into North-Central Somali territories and bringing Proto-Coastal-Northern Somali with them. The prior inhabitants probably spoke some other form of Cushitic. I doubt it was that close to Saho-Afar like Ehret thinks cos I see no proof for this but I'm becoming somewhat convinced this more or less was the case.

I think admixture from a Horner source also makes more sense of why Somalis are so homogeneous in terms of basal admixture levels:


https://i.imgur.com/qqVLczY.png
^ Collated Mota & Dinka for SSA and collated Natufian and Yemenis for MENA
https://i.imgur.com/nwKHVTx.png

There really is very little variation in terms of how MENA everyone is on a basal level even if one person is 3% South-Arabian and the other is 10%, especially once one accounts for some of the Kenyan samples who might be Borana admixed or something along those lines (http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2015/12/kenyan-somalis-not-all-borana-admixed.html). This would make little sense to me if every other person has a Yemeni great grandma. Basal admixture level tightness is something I've noticed over the years with commercially tested Somalis as well. This could make sense if this admixture comes from Horners who were about as admixed as Somali-15-like Somalis on a basal level despite being distinct on a more recent ancestral level like how Wolaytas cluster fairly close to Somalis in global PCAs despite the more recent ancestral makeup in the two groups being pretty damn different:


https://i.imgur.com/hhc7kmH.png
https://i.imgur.com/DIDTGBZ.png

So yeah, who knows... all this theorizing might just be based on all these analysis methods being wonky and unreliable and me making too much of Somali Y-DNA founder-effects and being over-imaginative with the clan mythologies but it is interesting to think about.

drobbah
07-26-2020, 05:28 AM
Use Somali-15 for a sort of "pure-bred Somali" component then throw in Mota and Yemenis along with any modern Cushitic or Ethiosemitic ethnic group and watch, as you can see above, how South-Arabian ancestry pretty much disappears. In fact, it's Mota related ancestry that consistently persists. And the most favored fellow Horners are by far Oromos which linguistically make sense:


https://i.imgur.com/Wvy3ZTb.png
https://i.imgur.com/EXVyNmI.png

I tried the same model but instead divided Oromos between the assimilated Ethio-Semites (20% + Yemeni ancestry) and the Boranas (17%+ Ethio HG ancestry) and used Somali15 & Ayodo_41S as a reference for possible proto-Somalis

https://i.imgur.com/ozsg3LM.png





There isn't actually linguistic evidence for that last bit as I pointed out here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16556-can-somebody-provide-me-some-somali-GEDmatch-results&p=551537#post551537) but even so, if these genetic results are legit it does make one wonder. Somali-15 and a few like him might be preserving some pretty old diversity while everyone else is a mark of Horners from further south and west carrying admixture from the Highlands mixing into the Somali gene pool and, ironically enough, bringing the Somali language with them. It might make sense with some other things as well. I've noticed that the more north you go into Somali territories the more the culture seems closer to other Coastal-Cushites like Afars and Sahos but the more you go south, like with the Rahanweyn, the more similar it looks to Oromos. Though I admit this could just be due to the obvious geographic proximity. But there's also the fact that V32 seems pretty common among Oromos and suddenly seems less common the more northwest you go in Somali territory where T becomes more common. Something I noted to Lank about this via PMs:
Somaliland is where you will find the weird Cushitic haplogroups.As you said T-M70 dominates here (but could be due to founder effect) but we also have found E-M96 among the Sanbuur Isaaq clan, Z813* in a Habar Jeclo individual and so far the only Habar Awal E-V32 on yfull is more basal than the other Somalis (more to come as my bigY is being analyzed as we speak).





It even makes some sense with uniparentals. The origin story of the Darod clan, despite supposedly being about a Muslim saint, has clear Waqist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waaqeffanna) themes often found in Ethiopia. Saint appears atop a sacred tree, local people give him a local daughter so he comes down, marries her and guides them. This is a common Waqist story (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-015-9181-z) and the "daughter" in this context is the daughter of the Dir clan chief. Darods, a clan rich in V32, according to oral tradition, intermarry with Dirs, a clan rich in T-M70, through the maternal line to become Somalis like them. I think what Somalis are recounting here is actually the Somalization of North-Central Somalia. Similar to Arabians with the "Adnan" & "Qahtan" story (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12680-DNA-result-Quraish-tribe-quot-Makkah-quot-Saud-Arabia&p=311411#post311411), Somalis probably have things assed backwards and the Somalized people are in fact Dir in this story and the Darod in this story are a representation of a people from further south and west in the Horn coming into North-Central Somali territories and bringing Proto-Coastal-Northern Somali with them. The prior inhabitants probably spoke some other form of Cushitic. I doubt it was that close to Saho-Afar like Ehret thinks cos I see no proof for this but I'm becoming somewhat convinced this more or less was the case.

The holy tree is a common theme among waaqist/ancient Cushitic followers,perhaps Sheikh Darood was a powerful Waaqist priest who's descendants later on turned him into an Arab muslim saint.
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Mnemonics
07-27-2020, 01:13 PM
I think i've figured out why qpadm and g25 are in disagreement . G25 gives Horn Africans significant Iberomaurusian ancestry where as fstats shows Somalis have no specific preference for Iberomaurusian vs MA1. The inflation of Iberomaurusian affinity is making Somali's Eurasian seem closer to Natufian than it actually is.

drobbah
07-28-2020, 05:39 AM
I tried to a better job at dividing the Oromos between the Borana & those with profiles most similar to Amharas and got rid of samples that range between the two extremes.There are a few samples I could characterize as Eastern Oromos as they have lower Yemeni_Jawf (but higher than Boranas) but also average Mota ancestry.I also included Rendille1 who clusters with Kenyan Somalis as a target sample as he would be a good indication of how the Proto-Somalis prior to their departure from possible Southern Ethiopia/Northern Kenyan origin point looked like.

G25 results
https://i.imgur.com/sXGGM12.jpg

If we were take Awale's theory of Borana-like people representing the people who brought proto-Somali to modern Somaliland and the locals are represented by Ayodo_40 (no mota ancestry,1% Iran_N) then atleast half the Somalis would need a third Ethio-Semitic layer.This admixture could have happened during the medieval era when Somalis came into contact with the various Ethio-Semitic and Highland Cushitic Islamic Sultanates like Shewa,Dawaro,Hadiya,Ifat & ofcourse the infamous Adal.The ones that are probably responsible for this admixture are probably the Harla (now extinct) and possibly the Harari people.As you can see Rendille1 and majority of the Kenyan Ayodo samples (groups like Ajuraan,Degodia etc) don't get any Ethio-Semitic admixture.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dp5DwH3X4AA4c4I.jpg










Source samples
Somali:Ayodo_40S,-0.306184,0.096475,-0.031301,-0.072029,0.002154,-0.039324,-0.018801,0.013384,0.112693,-0.077815,-0.013641,-0.002398,0.013082,-0.001101,0.024022,-0.016839,0.019949,-0.003801,0.015587,-0.005753,0.006364,0.002844,-0.000616,0.000241,-0.003832
Borana:OROMO1,-0.332363,0.089367,-0.026776,-0.058786,0.000615,-0.026495,0.003525,-0.012692,0.103489,-0.077086,-0.005846,-0.002548,0.004906,-0.004404,0.026737,-0.008751,0.029728,0.013176,0.001508,-0.002251,0.004243,0.00507,-0.005793,-0.001205,-0.003473
Ethio_Semitic_Oromo:OROMO11,-0.236752,0.096475,-0.034695,-0.075582,0.000923,-0.035977,-0.016686,-0.004154,0.102671,-0.068703,0.001624,-0.014537,0.016799,0.008945,0.018051,-0.012596,0.015125,0.003801,0.004525,0.004252,0.002 995,0.005688,0.00037,0.011327,-0.002994
Ethio_Semitic_Oromo:OROMO12,-0.228784,0.101553,-0.035826,-0.079781,-0.005232,-0.036256,-0.015511,-0.002077,0.102466,-0.071619,-0.002761,-0.014087,0.023191,-0.001651,0.026194,-0.005569,0.016428,0.008488,0.008296,0.007253,0.007 861,0.011747,-0.003328,0.003976,-0.003712
Ethio_Semitic_Oromo:OROMO15,-0.26407,0.097491,-0.032055,-0.072998,0.004308,-0.035419,-0.007755,-0.002077,0.097558,-0.0636,-0.008444,-0.007194,0.014866,0.002477,0.018187,-0.016574,0.007171,0.005828,0.007919,-0.00025,0.006988,0.006554,-0.008874,0.010242,-0.003832
Borana:OROMO16,-0.313014,0.085304,-0.022627,-0.052972,0.004308,-0.029562,0.001175,-0.013153,0.106148,-0.078726,-0.008931,-0.006444,0.00223,-0.000963,0.022665,-0.025059,0.011865,0.010895,0.005531,-0.002251,-0.000499,0.004328,-0.002588,-0.001566,0.001197
Ethio_Semitic_Oromo:OROMO18,-0.261793,0.103584,-0.029415,-0.072998,-0.001846,-0.031794,-0.011045,-0.004846,0.102466,-0.067792,-0.001137,-0.008992,0.015907,-0.004954,0.019272,-0.005701,0.023078,0.005068,0.008547,0.007754,0.002 87,0.005688,0.000123,0.006868,-0.007784
Ethio_Semitic_Oromo:OROMO19,-0.254964,0.096475,-0.029415,-0.075259,-0.002154,-0.034582,-0.00799,-0.006923,0.107375,-0.067427,-0.004872,-0.01094,0.014717,-0.006468,0.02443,-0.012861,0.017863,0.002914,0.012947,0.004002,-0.001373,0.007666,-0.003451,0.002289,-0.003592
Borana:OROMO2,-0.301631,0.087336,-0.02753,-0.067507,0.004616,-0.033467,-0.000705,-0.004846,0.108807,-0.075446,-0.007145,-0.005845,0.002081,-0.004404,0.020358,-0.014983,0.021644,0,0.001257,-0.006628,-0.000125,0.003586,-0.005916,-0.000723,-0.000958
Borana:OROMO3,-0.29594,0.090382,-0.032055,-0.068476,0.006463,-0.030399,-0.004465,-0.004384,0.106148,-0.075628,-0.005359,-0.014237,0.008028,-0.003441,0.022665,-0.015778,0.024773,0.006081,0.003897,-0.004002,0.003619,0.005441,-0.006902,0.000843,0.000718
Ethio_Semitic_Oromo:OROMO5,-0.242443,0.102568,-0.035449,-0.084949,0.000615,-0.035698,-0.010575,-0.003,0.102262,-0.064694,-0.005196,-0.013938,0.022894,-0.000826,0.021987,-0.008353,0.016559,0.003547,0.00729,-0.002501,0.006114,0.005688,-0.007641,-0.001205,0
Ethio_Semitic_Oromo:OROMO6,-0.265208,0.09546,-0.028661,-0.071706,0.007078,-0.034582,-0.009165,-0.007154,0.099194,-0.068339,-0.000487,-0.014237,0.006392,-0.000138,0.016558,-0.007292,0.018645,0.000253,0.003897,0.002001,0.002 246,0.010758,-0.003821,0.008314,-0.005868

piye
08-02-2020, 10:21 AM
Well somalis and habeshas share the same natufian like ancestors who probably came from the fertile crescent

The semitic component of habeshas also came from a region near the fertile crescent with similar climate

So im pretty sure the omotic part of habeshas must be of a substantial element

When?? What time period do you think the emboldened happened and what event occupied it?

Tie it to your comment on lack of Anatolian and Iran neolithic in east african afrasans

piye
08-02-2020, 10:55 AM
I am looking at the chart you posted and I am finding it weird how the Somalis with the Iran_N/CHG admixture and the Somalis without the Iran_N/CHG admixture both have similar SSA/West Eurasian ratio of 55/45 (give or take a few points). There doesn't seem to be any difference, compare this to the differences that exist between Somalia Somalis and the borana admixed Kenyan Somalis.

Borana are more SSA adjacent than Somalis and this is clearly reflected in the West Eurasian/SSA ratio of most Somali_Kenya_Ayodo sampled on the chart, for they are a bit more SSA than Somali:Somali examples.

If Arabian admixture was present in some Somalis and not others, then i'd expect there to be more difference in the SSA/West Eurasian ratio.

This makes me believe more and more that whatever the predominant mena like ancestry in cushitic people is, it was a fairly unique one from what we currently have on file (like natufians for example), which is kinda obvious I suppose. Maybe if there was a better proxy for the west eurasian ancestry in Somalis then it would cause the slight differences in the west eurasian components in Somalis to decrease or disappear all together.

That stuff we are currently calling "natufian" in east Africans will be clearer once wr get ancient preneoilthic , neolithic and even paleolithic DNA from various regions in NE Africa (north + East Africa)

Awale
10-01-2020, 08:45 AM
So I emailed Ehret (https://i.imgur.com/NtI6Jhl.png) a while back and he got back to me (https://i.imgur.com/AKenVON.png) with this nice, straight-forward visual for East-Cushitic:


https://i.imgur.com/uaZCrWN.png

source (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11gBQWdWlVLvfHPamu9WT-cuFhZgk1ijp/view?usp=sharing)

What is listed as "Proto-Maxay" is basically the "Coastal-Northern (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2ARnUeK-Y8WTkVtV2lrTkN2Y0k/view?usp=sharing)" dialects of Somali. As in "Somali" proper. What was historically spoken by the 4 main clans. I also got some useful dates off of him as you could see with those links:


By the way, the proto-Lowland Eastern Cushitic language was spoken around 4,000 years ago, and the proto-Soomaali language around 2,000 years ago—


I mainly sent him that email to see if memory served me right about Oromo basically being the closest among the East-Cushitic group to the Somali group (Proto-East Omo-Tana above)
and I was more or less correct which fits in well with how the modeling keeps picking Oromos. Early Omo-Tana speakers would have been living neck and neck with early Konsoromo speakers.


If we were take Awale's theory of Borana-like people representing the people who brought proto-Somali to modern Somaliland and the locals are represented by Ayodo_40 (no mota ancestry,1% Iran_N) then atleast half the Somalis would need a third Ethio-Semitic layer.This admixture could have happened during the medieval era when Somalis came into contact with the various Ethio-Semitic and Highland Cushitic Islamic Sultanates like Shewa,Dawaro,Hadiya,Ifat & ofcourse the infamous Adal.The ones that are probably responsible for this admixture are probably the Harla (now extinct) and possibly the Harari people.As you can see Rendille1 and majority of the Kenyan Ayodo samples (groups like Ajuraan,Degodia etc) don't get any Ethio-Semitic admixture.

Sounds a tad bit too complicated, abowe. Especially given how it all magically worked itself out for Somalis to now have pretty homogenous basal admixture levels. I side more with one group with very similar basal admixture levels to individuals like Somali-15 admixing into the "Pre-Somalis". Plus, those theoretical South Ethiosemitic speakers who may have lived in Somali territories were mainly thought to have lived along the northwest, were seemingly small in number and those small settlements may very well have not even been by Ethiosemitic speakers to begin with as the Harlas' linguistic alignment is dubious and there are people among Somalis, Oromos and Afars who carry around the name nowadays as well.

But who knows. This is all very interesting, I'll say that much.


I tried to a better job at dividing the Oromos between the Borana & those with profiles most similar to Amharas and got rid of samples that range between the two extremes.There are a few samples I could characterize as Eastern Oromos as they have lower Yemeni_Jawf (but higher than Boranas) but also average Mota ancestry.I also included Rendille1 who clusters with Kenyan Somalis as a target sample as he would be a good indication of how the Proto-Somalis prior to their departure from possible Southern Ethiopia/Northern Kenyan origin point looked like.

I wouldn't be so sure those more admixed Oromos are actually assimilated Habeshas. Think there's a solid chance they're assimilated HE Cushites whose spread along central, east and west Ethiopia was probably a lot greater than it is now before the Oromo expansion. I wouldn't be surprised if people in areas like Bale & Arsi were always East-Cushites who existed on some sort of continuum with the East-Cushites further to their east (like Somali and Oromo speakers) and were basically the source of the Habesha-Agaw type admixture in these more eastern groups. Also, even if they are Habesha assimilates they're most likely Habesha assimilates with some admixture from the early Oromos which is why the model would continue to favor them over straight Habeshas like Tigrinyas (https://imgur.com/a/qBQK9DG). Again, who knows but I side more with a group or collection of groups with South-Arabian admixture living in that general area that seems an early nucleus for East-Cushites migrating into Somali territories if indeed this even happened and I'm not being too fanciful in all this which still might be the case.