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Granary
07-14-2020, 06:24 PM
Hello, I wanted to create this thread to discuss the linguistic, genetic and archeological evidence for a general chronological-spatial model for the Bantu expansion so we can properly answer when Bantus arrived at any given region and why we believe that.

A couple of leading questions/facts I know:

-Do the Shum Laka samples meaningfully change our understanding of the Bantu expansion? I ask this about the late 2nd millennium BCE samples, if the Bantu expansion was already underway why would a place so near their homeland of all places have such a different population? Or is it simply just a isolated pigmy enclave?

-We have evidence of continuity in Malawi in Fingira up to around 500 BCE but we also have evidence of mostly Bantu individual in Botswana around 600 CE, I guess a non-Bantu sample is not necessarily evidence of Bantu absence but the presence of a single Bantu does prove to some extent the existence of Bantus, the extent though I guess is debatable.

-In terms of very early written evidence, when can we put a latest date for East Africa?

Granary
07-15-2020, 08:19 PM
Some resources I found:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/157573257.pdf

And maps that shouldn't contradict what is said in the file above:

https://i.redd.it/bc0b7rtfch151.png

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1040618216302890-gr1.jpg

https://www.gifex.com/images/500X0/2010-01-06-11637/The_Bantu_expansion_3000_1000_BC.gif

NetNomad
07-15-2020, 09:08 PM
http://yfull.com/tree/E-M2

When E-M2 lineages stop being West African and start becoming Central or Southeast African (and Arabian via the Indian Ocean slave trade) is mostly around 4-2 kyBP.

Granary
07-15-2020, 09:30 PM
http://yfull.com/tree/E-M2

When E-M2 lineages stop being West African and start becoming Central or Southeast African (and Arabian via the Indian Ocean slave trade) is mostly around 4-2 kyBP.

That's in line with the evidence, although I think the Bantu expansion beyond the rainforest can't be dated prior to 1000 BCE given what we have now, the evidence there agrees for Bantus coming in the Great Lakes region around 600 BCE(Urewe tradition).

BTW about East Africa, do you have any idea of what happened there to the Cushitic population in Western Kenya and Tanzania? Did they leave any noticeable linguistic and genetic trace in the modern populations? I know of the Iraqw but I was wondering how much of a Cushitic substratum there was and what it could tell us of how widespread Cushites were prior.

ThaYamamoto
07-16-2020, 02:25 AM
I like tha idea of this thread bro, right now I don't have any sources etc so these are some observations off the dome. The map in the first image is actually great. I don't think the Bantu homeland is in Nigerian Calabar/NW Cameroon and probably wasn't the dispersal point. I say this cuz Blench believes on linguistic and archaeological grounds, the Bantu may have originated/expanded from the Adamawa plateau, which is more North/Central-East than it is extreme South-East like has been suggested by some others. Ekoid/Enjagham are still spoken in Nigeria particularly in the South-East as well as Cameroon, so that lends support to them originating/expanding from there, but we have Jarawan peoples who speak a language closer to the narrow Bantu cluster [far as I remember I don't got sources rn] still in Nigeria to this day, but apparently linguists ignore this fact to make their explanations more parsimonious.

I'm inclined to the think that the Bantu homeland is much further West as can be seen by the genetic signature even in Ghana (unsupervised of course) - think Razib had them at 40% 'Bantu' in that old unsupervised run of his. When you start allocating clusters things change but I'd reckon Nigerian Delta maybe as the source of the proto-proto-Bantu peoples. Maybe. Again I'm just going off the top here. The Ijaw, with their most isolated/drifted language within Niger-Congo deep in Southern Nigeria, I think would definitely shed light on some things. I say this cuz I came across an Ijaw's ancestry results on Fonte Felipe's blog and surprisingly he/she scored the highest 'Cameroon/Congo/Southern Bantu' than any other Nigerian pop in his database...which is funny considering Efiks are far closer to Cameroon/Bantu peoples today, and don't exhibit as much as that individual. But its one sample, unfortunately. With Ijaws' massive [language] drift and isolation though I've been thinking they are prolly a major key.



That's in line with the evidence, although I think the Bantu expansion beyond the rainforest can't be dated prior to 1000 BCE given what we have now, the evidence there agrees for Bantus coming in the Great Lakes region around 600 BCE(Urewe tradition).

BTW about East Africa, do you have any idea of what happened there to the Cushitic population in Western Kenya and Tanzania? Did they leave any noticeable linguistic and genetic trace in the modern populations? I know of the Iraqw but I was wondering how much of a Cushitic substratum there was and what it could tell us of how widespread Cushites were prior.

In regards to Tanzanians in particular (I'm not gonna get into Kenya etc its messy and I can't really explain Kikuyus etc as well as someone else), you can see in the attached admixture [a pretty nuanced run where they allowed for both supervised and unsupervised after a certain K, shout out to them] that the Tanzanian/Nyamwezi groups like Sukuma, Gogo etc have a significant cushitic/pastoralist and eastafrican hunter gatherer input. You can find tha study here (https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2014.1448)

ThaYamamoto
07-23-2020, 02:12 AM
I'm starting to think that Proto-Potou-Tano-Bantu/Proto-Potou-Akanic-Bantu is actually just an even mix of Bangime + Mota, amateur as it sounds. That's why the signal is strong all the way into Ghana (30-40%?). But that wouldn't explain the prevalence of L3b etc on the Atlantic Coast. What yall think?

Granary
07-30-2020, 08:17 AM
I like tha idea of this thread bro, right now I don't have any sources etc so these are some observations off the dome. The map in the first image is actually great. I don't think the Bantu homeland is in Nigerian Calabar/NW Cameroon and probably wasn't the dispersal point. I say this cuz Blench believes on linguistic and archaeological grounds, the Bantu may have originated/expanded from the Adamawa plateau, which is more North/Central-East than it is extreme South-East like has been suggested by some others. Ekoid/Enjagham are still spoken in Nigeria particularly in the South-East as well as Cameroon, so that lends support to them originating/expanding from there, but we have Jarawan peoples who speak a language closer to the narrow Bantu cluster [far as I remember I don't got sources rn] still in Nigeria to this day, but apparently linguists ignore this fact to make their explanations more parsimonious.
I believe we should always distinguish between narrow and Bantoid languages, for narrow Bantu langauges the homeland or last place where the population was close must be in Cameroon, the modern linguistic situation is just too in line with that idea.

I can't properly comment on Bantoid, I don't even really know the chronological depth of the branch itself. Even there though I believe the Bantoid branch homeland is East of the Niger, as even Benue-Congo is today concentrated east of there.


I'm inclined to the think that the Bantu homeland is much further West as can be seen by the genetic signature even in Ghana (unsupervised of course) - think Razib had them at 40% 'Bantu' in that old unsupervised run of his. When you start allocating clusters things change but I'd reckon Nigerian Delta maybe as the source of the proto-proto-Bantu peoples. Maybe. Again I'm just going off the top here. The Ijaw, with their most isolated/drifted language within Niger-Congo deep in Southern Nigeria, I think would definitely shed light on some things. I say this cuz I came across an Ijaw's ancestry results on Fonte Felipe's blog and surprisingly he/she scored the highest 'Cameroon/Congo/Southern Bantu' than any other Nigerian pop in his database...which is funny considering Efiks are far closer to Cameroon/Bantu peoples today, and don't exhibit as much as that individual. But its one sample, unfortunately. With Ijaws' massive [language] drift and isolation though I've been thinking they are prolly a major key.
How old is "Volta-Congo"? In any case aren't such genetic patterns just indicative that West Africans and Bantus have recent common origins? This wouldn't be surprising so I'm not sure how much it says about the Bantu homeland.



In regards to Tanzanians in particular (I'm not gonna get into Kenya etc its messy and I can't really explain Kikuyus etc as well as someone else), you can see in the attached admixture [a pretty nuanced run where they allowed for both supervised and unsupervised after a certain K, shout out to them] that the Tanzanian/Nyamwezi groups like Sukuma, Gogo etc have a significant cushitic/pastoralist and eastafrican hunter gatherer input. You can find tha study here (https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2014.1448)
Ngl it's hard for me to read those graphs, I wish they had them in a numerical format.


In any case in terms of linguistic replacement in Nigeria is there a particular region that is today Benue-Congo that was not in the "recent" past(last 3 millennia) or vice versa? Because if the modern situation is roughly the same as it was 2-4 millennia ago then Benue-Congo must have originated also near Cameroon even if within Nigeria.

Granary
07-30-2020, 08:21 AM
I'm starting to think that Proto-Potou-Tano-Bantu/Proto-Potou-Akanic-Bantu is actually just an even mix of Bangime + Mota, amateur as it sounds. That's why the signal is strong all the way into Ghana (30-40%?). But that wouldn't explain the prevalence of L3b etc on the Atlantic Coast. What yall think?
I'm not familiar with this linguistic branch, is it more solid than the general Volta-Congo branch?

Brwn_trd
07-30-2020, 03:51 PM
Hello, I wanted to create this thread to discuss the linguistic, genetic and archeological evidence for a general chronological-spatial model for the Bantu expansion so we can properly answer when Bantus arrived at any given region and why we believe that.

A couple of leading questions/facts I know:

-Do the Shum Laka samples meaningfully change our understanding of the Bantu expansion? I ask this about the late 2nd millennium BCE samples, if the Bantu expansion was already underway why would a place so near their homeland of all places have such a different population? Or is it simply just a isolated pigmy enclave?

-We have evidence of continuity in Malawi in Fingira up to around 500 BCE but we also have evidence of mostly Bantu individual in Botswana around 600 CE, I guess a non-Bantu sample is not necessarily evidence of Bantu absence but the presence of a single Bantu does prove to some extent the existence of Bantus, the extent though I guess is debatable.

-In terms of very early written evidence, when can we put a latest date for East Africa?

There was no agenda to eliminate hunter gatherer populations which existed alongside agricultural populations. There are several regions where stone using populations were attested even up to the 17th century in Ghana. The point is, the presence of one population does not mean the absence of the other, therefore the Shum Laka samples should not be over intepreted.

Some models of the bantu expansion have a natural expansion after the adoption of a stable economic system. The faster population growth would result in assimilation of populations with less stable economic systems with minimal impact on the genome. In regions where the economic systems result in similar population dynamics, stable boundaries formed from which bidirectional assimilation occurred. In such regions, there was significant impact on the genome of bantu populations. Malawi is of the first type, and botswana of the second.

ThaYamamoto
07-30-2020, 03:54 PM
There was no agenda to eliminate hunter gatherer populations which existed alongside agricultural populations. There are several regions where stone using populations were attested even up to the 17th century in Ghana. The point is, the presence of one population does not mean the absence of the other, therefore the Shum Laka samples should not be over intepreted.

Some models of the bantu expansion have a natural expansion after the adoption of a stable economic system. The faster population growth would result in assimilation of populations with less stable economic systems with minimal impact on the genome. In regions where the economic systems result in similar population dynamics, stable boundaries formed from which bidirectional assimilation occurred. In such regions, there was significant impact on the genome of bantu populations. Malawi is of the first type, and botswana of the second.

Can you tell us more about these types in Ghana? Fascinating

Granary
07-30-2020, 04:37 PM
There was no agenda to eliminate hunter gatherer populations which existed alongside agricultural populations. There are several regions where stone using populations were attested even up to the 17th century in Ghana. The point is, the presence of one population does not mean the absence of the other, therefore the Shum Laka samples should not be over intepreted.

Some models of the bantu expansion have a natural expansion after the adoption of a stable economic system. The faster population growth would result in assimilation of populations with less stable economic systems with minimal impact on the genome. In regions where the economic systems result in similar population dynamics, stable boundaries formed from which bidirectional assimilation occurred. In such regions, there was significant impact on the genome of bantu populations. Malawi is of the first type, and botswana of the second.

What do you mean by stable economic system? Isn't that essentially different crops and better technology? That's the standard model.

Brwn_trd
07-30-2020, 10:17 PM
Can you tell us more about these types in Ghana? Fascinating

Can't say if they were a genetically distinct population, but they were certainly culturally distinct from the majority of Ghanaians today whose cultural antecedents are well known. Like the rest of west africa, there are no osteological remains. It could simply be late adoption of iron technology. Interestingly, the site has the earliest pottery in Africa; if not intrusive, it could indicate expansion from the south into the sahara at the beginning of the holocene or at least southern cultural aspects.

Bosumpra revisited: 12,500 years on the Kwahu Plateau, Ghana, as viewed from ‘On top of the hill’

Abstract

Thurstan Shaw directed a pioneering excavation within Bosumpra Cave, Ghana, in 1943 and in 1973/1974 it was re-excavated by Andrew Smith, who obtained radiocarbon dates bracketing the upper section of the site's occupation sequence between 4500 cal. BC and cal. AD 1400. Bosumpra has since been widely cited in discussions concerning the West African Late Stone Age, although its significance and most of its occupation sequence remain obscure and open to speculation. Re-excavation during 2008–2011 revealed that the site's earliest occupation/exploitation dates from the mid-eleventh millennium cal. BC and continued throughout the Holocene. The site has more recently functioned as a shrine to the deity Pra and is in use today as a Christian church. Geometric microliths, celts and pottery formed the basis of a distinctive adaptation on the Kwahu Plateau from the tenth millennium cal. BC, with the stone tool component persisting until the seventeenth century AD. The upper layers of the shelter also yielded material that provides insights into the history of the Akan-speaking people of southern Ghana.

Brwn_trd
07-30-2020, 10:29 PM
What do you mean by stable economic system? Isn't that essentially different crops and better technology? That's the standard model.

This is a term I read in a paper. Economic system refers to the mode of production of the population, how they sustain themselves. Stability refers to robustness to random adverse events, things like droughts etc and how easily populations can recover. It could be different crops or better technology but it really depends on the match between that and the environment. Worse technology with a better strategy could represent a more stable economic system. The criteria is if it leads to faster population growth. I liked the gist of the paper as it seemed to explain population replacement better than the other models.

Interestingly the Bantu populations in Botswana circa 600BC appear to have been replaced or assimilated. They do not resemble modern Batswana. In southern Africa there is a distinction between the early iron age and the later iron age, which begins just before the turn of the second millennium.

mpatsibihugu89
08-25-2020, 04:13 PM
I thought this would be a good place to post my kenyan relative.I am from Rwanda/Burundi yet I have a kenyan relative. Tutsi "Southeastern African" ancestry may be a component shared with luhya like or proto Luhya eastern bantus. Just that component is older in the region than the Angola& congolese one. Pretty sure they are the reference for that region anyway. I wonder if the extra central bantu ancestry is more recent in the Great Lakes region and Greater East Africa region?! Tutsi on 23andme seem overall to have very minimal "Angola & Congolese". See below my relative on the right and my regional assignment on the left. Thoughts?

39156

39157

Mirix
09-20-2020, 08:12 AM
That's in line with the evidence, although I think the Bantu expansion beyond the rainforest can't be dated prior to 1000 BCE given what we have now, the evidence there agrees for Bantus coming in the Great Lakes region around 600 BCE(Urewe tradition).

BTW about East Africa, do you have any idea of what happened there to the Cushitic population in Western Kenya and Tanzania? Did they leave any noticeable linguistic and genetic trace in the modern populations? I know of the Iraqw but I was wondering how much of a Cushitic substratum there was and what it could tell us of how widespread Cushites were prior.


Copying another post i made about South Cushitic from another thread. Not only with Iraqw and Yaaku you see traces , you see cushitic genes, culture ,archeology and borrowed words in places like rwanda , burundi with Tutsis, and with Masai , Rendille in Kenya.


It was certaintly not through war or genocide postulated by people who mention Bantu expansion. Because of lack of evidence. There was certaintly a way of either migratory obsorption i reckon its was due to larger population and mass scale movements. That migration also pushed those groups overhelmed by the sheer numbers away into other territories (Primarily in the horn) while the few ones that remained were assimilated and absorbed.

I believe this is how it played out and it makes more sense than some genocide. Especially considering how Southern Cushitic speaking groups who proceeded them were relatively more advanced in weaponry tools (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savanna_Pastoral_Neolithic: and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azania ), it wouldn't make sense for relatively less armed/advanced bantus to be able to genocide these armed established populations.

You can see how this number absorption and assimilation took place in modern times with the Yaaku https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaaku_language and the there were only 3 Yaaku cushitic speakers until late. There was no force, genocide murder or war that brought that about. Then there is IraqW cushites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqw_people who managed to survive the mass wave. But they are substantially mixed between Nilotic and bantu speakers. With E1b1b haplogroup of 56% from their original cushitic ancestry and Haplogroup B of 22% from Nilotic and E1b1a haplogroup of 11% from Bantu.

https://landofpunt.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/yaaku-man-mixed-cushite.png?w=300&h=287
Example of a Yaaku South Cushitic man, you can see he retained a lot cushitic type features and hair texture.

I think the best way to explain what occured is to visualize that you and your friends are 3 people and group of 100 people came in your direction, you would be gulfed up and overtaken by those 100 peoples if you remained or you would move away to somewhere else. I think this is what happened to the South Cushites when a mass wave of Niger-congo speakers headed their way.