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gjenetiks
07-20-2020, 12:30 AM
From other data I have seen, it looks as though the majority of Sandzak Muslims are of Albanian Malesor origin and score high E-V13. Haven't seen any more data on this and cannot find the earlier data. Anyone have it? Please post and discuss.

oz
07-20-2020, 08:09 AM
Wouldn't be surprised if Sandžak Muslims are more Albanian, Serbian and Montenegrin-like than Bosnian Muslims. I too would like to see a good study on their uniparentals and autosomals with a solid number of samples.

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07-20-2020, 08:50 AM
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slavomir
07-20-2020, 03:06 PM
From other data I have seen, it looks as though the majority of Sandzak Muslims are of Albanian Malesor origin and score high E-V13. Haven't seen any more data on this and cannot find the earlier data. Anyone have it? Please post and discuss.

this is the Bosniak dna project, with both Sandžak and Bosnian Bosniaks. In column 3 on the first link, you can see some of the participants have an Albanian origin. but i'm not sure if it's the majority of them.

https://bosnjackidnk.com/baza-bez-markera/
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1OsAy-5BiJzGcHTEtF-00FYJsjwM&ll=43.0262511231849%2C19.97844456171879&z=8

this is a Sandžak only overview from 2018. now there are probably more samples, and a more accurate one could be made.

189 samples
E-V13 (78) - 41,2%
R1b (32) - 16,9%
I2 (24) - 12,7%
J2b (19) - 10%
I1 (10) - 5,3%
J2a (10) - 5,3%
R1a (5) - 2,6%
G2a (5) - 2,6%
T (2) - 1,1%
C (2) - 1,1%
H (1) - 0,6%
J1 (1) - 0,6%

gjenetiks
07-20-2020, 06:05 PM
this is the Bosniak dna project, with both Sandžak and Bosnian Bosniaks. In column 3 on the first link, you can see some of the participants have an Albanian origin. but i'm not sure if it's the majority of them.

https://bosnjackidnk.com/baza-bez-markera/
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1OsAy-5BiJzGcHTEtF-00FYJsjwM&ll=43.0262511231849%2C19.97844456171879&z=8

this is a Sandžak only overview from 2018. now there are probably more samples, and a more accurate one could be made.

189 samples
E-V13 (78) - 41,2%
R1b (32) - 16,9%
I2 (24) - 12,7%
J2b (19) - 10%
I1 (10) - 5,3%
J2a (10) - 5,3%
R1a (5) - 2,6%
G2a (5) - 2,6%
T (2) - 1,1%
C (2) - 1,1%
H (1) - 0,6%
J1 (1) - 0,6%

So would it be fair to say the majority of Sandzak muslims are of Malesor Albanian origin? If this Sandzak only sample is true, it would indicate so.

gjenetiks
07-20-2020, 06:26 PM
So would it be fair to say the majority of Sandzak muslims are of Malesor Albanian origin? If this Sandzak only sample is true, it would indicate so.

To be fair looking at this database it seems a lot of Sandzak Muslims carry the I2a Slavic haplogroup was well. Is this from Bosnian migration from Bosnia proper or an indication of Montenegrin original origin?

slavomir
07-20-2020, 06:54 PM
To be fair looking at this database it seems a lot of Sandzak Muslims carry the I2a Slavic haplogroup was well. Is this from Bosnian migration from Bosnia proper or an indication of Montenegrin original origin?

i don't think there was a lot of a such migration. the bulk of their origin is from just a handful of Montenegrin Brda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brda_(Montenegro))(a region just south of Sandžak) tribes and Albanian tribes. the R1a and i2a are probably mostly remains of the older Serbian population.

Kulin
07-20-2020, 06:59 PM
i don't think there was a lot of a such migration. the bulk of their origin is from just a handful of Montenegrin Brda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brda_(Montenegro))(a region just south of Sandžak) tribes and Albanian tribes. the R1a and i2a are probably mostly remains of the older Serbian population.

How do Serbs from the same region compare in terms of Y dna distribution?

slavomir
07-20-2020, 08:35 PM
How do Serbs from the same region compare in terms of Y dna distribution?

after a quick look at the Serbian dna project, it's should be roughly like this (maybe i missed a few results)

i2 38.67
e 18.22
i1 15.11
r1a 9.33
j2 5.33
g 4.89
r1b 3.56
j1 2.22
q 1.78
n 0.89

225 samples

oz
07-20-2020, 08:42 PM
To be fair looking at this database it seems a lot of Sandzak Muslims carry the I2a Slavic haplogroup was well. Is this from Bosnian migration from Bosnia proper or an indication of Montenegrin original origin?

Doubt there was ever significant migration from Bosnia proper. It's been more the other way around.

Bruzmi
07-20-2020, 11:45 PM
First of all we should define Sandzak. In modern times, we refer to it as one region because of historical and geopolitical issues but in terms of population movements, it is divided into two regions: a southern Sandzak (Gusinje, Plav, Tutin, Rozhaje, Novi Pazar) populated much more by an Albanian substratum than a Slavic one and a northern Sandzak (Prijepolje, Priboj, Pljevlja, Bijelo Polje) populated much more by a Slavic substratum than an Albanian one. The two regions "meet" in the Sjenica-Petnjica line. In turn, that meant that migrations from Montenegro tended to go to southern Sandzak if the population spoke Albanian and to northern Sandzak if the population spoke Serbo-Croatian. It also meant that people from Herzegovina that migrated there, tended to settle in the north and people from Albanian regions tended to settle in the south.

We can pretty much map nowadays the route of every surname of the Sandzak and explain why it is E-V13, J2b, I2 etc. An example I like are the https://bosnjackidnk.com/porijeklo-porodice-skenderovic-iz-trpezi/ Skenderovići from Petnjica (J2b-L283>Z597, typical of Albanian Malėsor tribes). This is a brotherhood from Brskut, current Bratonozići, which then was part of Bukumiri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri) . These people migrated as Orthodox in Petnjica (18th century) and became Muslim under influence from the Shabanagaj, a brotherhood from Gruemiri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruemiri), who had converted to Islam about 50 years earlier (they were Catholics).

slavomir
07-21-2020, 11:09 AM
First of all we should define Sandzak. In modern times, we refer to it as one region because of historical and geopolitical issues but in terms of population movements, it is divided into two regions: a southern Sandzak (Gusinje, Plav, Tutin, Rozhaje, Novi Pazar) populated much more by an Albanian substratum than a Slavic one and a northern Sandzak (Prijepolje, Priboj, Pljevlja, Bijelo Polje) populated much more by a Slavic substratum than an Albanian one. The two regions "meet" in the Sjenica-Petnjica line. In turn, that meant that migrations from Montenegro tended to go to southern Sandzak if the population spoke Albanian and to northern Sandzak if the population spoke Serbo-Croatian. It also meant that people from Herzegovina that migrated there, tended to settle in the north and people from Albanian regions tended to settle in the south.

We can pretty much map nowadays the route of every surname of the Sandzak and explain why it is E-V13, J2b, I2 etc. An example I like are the https://bosnjackidnk.com/porijeklo-porodice-skenderovic-iz-trpezi/ Skenderovići from Petnjica (J2b-L283>Z597, typical of Albanian Malėsor tribes). This is a brotherhood from Brskut, current Bratonozići, which then was part of Bukumiri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri) . These people migrated as Orthodox in Petnjica (18th century) and became Muslim under influence from the Shabanagaj, a brotherhood from Gruemiri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruemiri), who had converted to Islam about 50 years earlier (they were Catholics).

I believe it went a little bit differently. The southeastern counties are 80% muslim/Bosniak. The original Serbian population abandonned this area almost completely in the great migrations of Serbs(1683-1739), and it was then resettled by both Serbian speakers from Brda and Albanian speakers from Malėsia, and in fact the Serbian Brda dialect became dominant among them, and the Albanian language died out except in a few villages. This is the "proper" Sandžak, and i had just this area in mind in my previous posts. You can see on the Bosniak DNA project map that the vast majortiy of tested Bosniaks are from this area. Many Bosniaks live in the other part too, but it seems they are less interested in DNA testing.

The northwestern part is around 70/30% Serb/Bosniak, and unlike the southeastern part it never had a large population exchange. Both the Serbs and Bosniaks originate from the original medieval population. A lot of them claim roots from further south in Montenegro too, but not so much from the Brda region, but rather from the Old Herzegovina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Herzegovina) region of Montenegro. For example many Serbs and Bosniaks here claim origin from the Drobnjaci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drobnjaci) tribe, and they carry the haplogroup I-FGC33034 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-FGC33034/) typical for this tribe.

Bruzmi
07-22-2020, 02:23 PM
The available data we have are 1)some historical accounts, although no proper modern bibliography exists for Sandzak b)anthroponymy and of course c)limited Y-DNA research in the last decade.

1)The shift from Albanian to Serbo-Croatian in southern Sandzak is actually a modern phenomenon that started in the 20th century and expanded rapidly in the post--WWII era. Furthern north, up to WWII, there were bilingual areas up to Bijelo Polje. For example, Jusuf Mehonjić/Mehoniqi, a well-known rebel from Bijelo Polje was from a bilingual background and after incorporation of the area into Yugoslavia, he eventually settled in Albania.


2)In terms of anthroponymy, I make this distinction between a northern and southern Sandzak because of the radically different anthroponymy between southern, central & northern Sandzak. I've uploaded (from forebears io) the most common surnames from Tutin (southern Sandzak, 94% Bosniak/Muslim) , Petnjica (central Sandzak, 95% Bosniak/Muslim) and Prijepolje (northern Sandzak, 45% Bosniak/Muslim). In Tutin, most surnames link back to an Albanian fis/tribe (Pepić the most common surname in Tutin- Pepaj until WWII - brotherhood is from Kelmendi, on the other side of the border in Kosovo the same brotherhood continues as Pepaj). Petnjica - just 45 miles (75 km) to the west of Tutin - is very different. There, surnames - in a 95% Muslim area - clearly show that many of these people were Orthodox at some point. We also have some surnames that indicate an origin from Albanian fis/tribes (Gašić < Gashi). In Prijepolje, the situation is even more different. There we find no surnames influenced by Albanian fis, but we find many surnames influenced by Montenegrin pleme/tribes (Rovčanin, Drobnjak).

386323863338634


Therefore, I argue that because of a different substratum in sub-regions of Sandzak, different populations tended to migrate to different areas. Kelmendi, Hoti etc. brotherhoods settled in areas like Tutin because they found themselves in a much more familiar environment there and Drobnjak, Rovčan etc. brotherhoods settled in areas like Prijepolje for exactly the same reasons.

slavomir
07-22-2020, 07:39 PM
The available data we have are 1)some historical accounts, although no proper modern bibliography exists for Sandzak b)anthroponymy and of course c)limited Y-DNA research in the last decade.

1)The shift from Albanian to Serbo-Croatian in southern Sandzak is actually a modern phenomenon that started in the 20th century and expanded rapidly in the post--WWII era. Furthern north, up to WWII, there were bilingual areas up to Bijelo Polje. For example, Jusuf Mehonjić/Mehoniqi, a well-known rebel from Bijelo Polje was from a bilingual background and after incorporation of the area into Yugoslavia, he eventually settled in Albania.

2)In terms of anthroponymy, I make this distinction between a northern and southern Sandzak because of the radically different anthroponymy between southern, central & northern Sandzak. I've uploaded (from forebears io) the most common surnames from Tutin (southern Sandzak, 94% Bosniak/Muslim) , Petnjica (central Sandzak, 95% Bosniak/Muslim) and Prijepolje (northern Sandzak, 45% Bosniak/Muslim). In Tutin, most surnames link back to an Albanian fis/tribe (Pepić the most common surname in Tutin- Pepaj until WWII - brotherhood is from Kelmendi, on the other side of the border in Kosovo the same brotherhood continues as Pepaj). Petnjica - just 45 miles (75 km) to the west of Tutin - is very different. There, surnames - in a 95% Muslim area - clearly show that many of these people were Orthodox at some point. We also have some surnames that indicate an origin from Albanian fis/tribes (Gašić < Gashi). In Prijepolje, the situation is even more different. There we find no surnames influenced by Albanian fis, but we find many surnames influenced by Montenegrin pleme/tribes (Rovčanin, Drobnjak).

386323863338634

Therefore, I argue that because of a different substratum in sub-regions of Sandzak, different populations tended to migrate to different areas. Kelmendi, Hoti etc. brotherhoods settled in areas like Tutin because they found themselves in a much more familiar environment there and Drobnjak, Rovčan etc. brotherhoods settled in areas like Prijepolje for exactly the same reasons.

i don't disagree with this, that's one big difference, but there is also another one, the Serbian/Montenegrin "element" of the northern and southern area is different. as i said in my previous post.

look at the map of Serbian dialects here, and the border between two different dialects in Sandžak.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta%E2%80%93Ra%C5%A1ka_dialect

excine
03-16-2021, 04:52 AM
Any updates on this thread?

Taratorchec
03-17-2021, 10:16 PM
Not really related to the Y-DNA, but I felt like sharing it cause it's related to Sandzak Bosnians and quite interesting for me. I'm Bulgarian and my parents are from north-west and central-west Bulgaria. As far as I know all my most recent ancestors were also ethnically Bulgarian. The Vahaduo Eurogenes K13 shows me closer to Sandzak Bosnians than many Bulgarian regions. I also extended the max output number to 50 and it seems like my genetic distance to Sandzak Bosnians is 5.7, while to regular Bosnians it's 11.8. Here are the results :

Distance to: test
5.34762564 Bulgaria_Northwestern
5.39930551 Serb_south
5.47646784 Macedonian_North
5.75853280 Bosniak_Sandzak
5.84346644 Bulgaria_average
5.85594570 Bulgaria_Southwestern
5.87020443 Romania_Wallachia
5.88887086 Bulgaria_Southcentral
5.92610327 Romania_Oltenia
5.93062391 Romania_Muntenia
5.97943977 Bulgaria_Northcentral
5.97975752 Romania_Dobruja
6.08177606 Montenegrin
6.25440645 Romania_average
6.25906543 Romania_Banat
6.34361096 Romania_Transylvania
6.37651159 Romania_Moldavia_South
6.45658579 Macedonian
6.69958954 Macedonian_South
6.83970029 Moldova_South
6.98330151 Romania_Crisana
7.04094454 Pomak_Bulgaria
7.31199015 Bulgaria_Northeastern
7.31730825 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
7.85849858 Greek_Northern-Thrace
7.90182257 Moldova_South_Gagauzia
7.90750277 Pomak_Greece
8.13834135 Romania_Maramures
8.44451301 Serb_central
8.55280656 Bulgaria_Southeastern
8.78695055 Serb
9.52342900 Albanian_Gheg
9.93330257 Romania_Moldavia_North
9.98012024 Albanian
10.05257678 Torbesh_average
10.05545623 Turk_Makedonya
10.07398630 Serb_north
10.55511369 Greek_Thessaly
10.73394149 Moldova_average
10.93728028 Moldova_Centre
11.13163510 Albanian_Tosk
11.25750861 Székely
11.26534065 Greek_Central_Macedonia
11.52465618 Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely
11.69567869 Croat_South
11.70965841 Greek_Northeast
11.84460637 Turk_Deliorman
11.85213905 Bosniak
12.37432422 Greek
12.37690591 Croat_West

vasil
03-17-2021, 11:22 PM
Not really related to the Y-DNA, but I felt like sharing it cause it's related to Sandzak Bosnians and quite interesting for me. I'm Bulgarian and my parents are from north-west and central-west Bulgaria. As far as I know all my most recent ancestors were also ethnically Bulgarian. The Vahaduo Eurogenes K13 shows me closer to Sandzak Bosnians than many Bulgarian regions. I also extended the max output number to 50 and it seems like my genetic distance to Sandzak Bosnians is 5.7, while to regular Bosnians it's 11.8. Here are the results :

Distance to: test
5.34762564 Bulgaria_Northwestern
5.39930551 Serb_south
5.47646784 Macedonian_North
5.75853280 Bosniak_Sandzak
5.84346644 Bulgaria_average
5.85594570 Bulgaria_Southwestern
5.87020443 Romania_Wallachia
5.88887086 Bulgaria_Southcentral
5.92610327 Romania_Oltenia
5.93062391 Romania_Muntenia
5.97943977 Bulgaria_Northcentral
5.97975752 Romania_Dobruja
6.08177606 Montenegrin
6.25440645 Romania_average
6.25906543 Romania_Banat
6.34361096 Romania_Transylvania
6.37651159 Romania_Moldavia_South
6.45658579 Macedonian
6.69958954 Macedonian_South
6.83970029 Moldova_South
6.98330151 Romania_Crisana
7.04094454 Pomak_Bulgaria
7.31199015 Bulgaria_Northeastern
7.31730825 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
7.85849858 Greek_Northern-Thrace
7.90182257 Moldova_South_Gagauzia
7.90750277 Pomak_Greece
8.13834135 Romania_Maramures
8.44451301 Serb_central
8.55280656 Bulgaria_Southeastern
8.78695055 Serb
9.52342900 Albanian_Gheg
9.93330257 Romania_Moldavia_North
9.98012024 Albanian
10.05257678 Torbesh_average
10.05545623 Turk_Makedonya
10.07398630 Serb_north
10.55511369 Greek_Thessaly
10.73394149 Moldova_average
10.93728028 Moldova_Centre
11.13163510 Albanian_Tosk
11.25750861 Székely
11.26534065 Greek_Central_Macedonia
11.52465618 Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely
11.69567869 Croat_South
11.70965841 Greek_Northeast
11.84460637 Turk_Deliorman
11.85213905 Bosniak
12.37432422 Greek
12.37690591 Croat_West

I am prety much the same as you where are your parents from and are you in the Bulgarian project at FTDNA?

excine
03-17-2021, 11:39 PM
How come Albanians appear quite far in Vahadou? Is this normal?

excine
03-17-2021, 11:55 PM
43909

My results ^

Taratorchec
03-18-2021, 12:11 PM
I am prety much the same as you where are your parents from and are you in the Bulgarian project at FTDNA?

My father is from Knezha(Pleven region) and my mother is from Dragovishtitsa(Kyustendil region). How about you?

I don't know about this Bulgarian project. What do I need to join? The testing company I used was LivingDNA, so I'm not sure if I can upload my results to FTDNA.

vasil
03-18-2021, 05:37 PM
My father is from Knezha(Pleven region) and my mother is from Dragovishtitsa(Kyustendil region). How about you?

I don't know about this Bulgarian project. What do I need to join? The testing company I used was LivingDNA, so I'm not sure if I can upload my results to FTDNA.

My father is from Osikovitsa and Vidrare just west of Teteven and my mother is from Borovtsi/Berkovitsa and Botunja/Krivodol if you tested at LivingDNA i dont think you can transfer to FTDNA. My Gedmatch is UT8918045 what is yours and what are your haplgroups?

Taratorchec
03-18-2021, 07:58 PM
My father is from Osikovitsa and Vidrare just west of Teteven and my mother is from Borovtsi/Berkovitsa and Botunja/Krivodol if you tested at LivingDNA i dont think you can transfer to FTDNA. My Gedmatch is UT8918045 what is yours and what are your haplgroups?

Nice. That's relatively close geographically.

My GEDmatch ID is CK8565675. Surprisingly(at least for me) my YDNA haplogroup is R1b-P312. My MtDNA haplogroup is H1b1a.

Are there some other free calculators that I can use my results on, except GEDmatch and Vahaduo?

By the way, sorry for the off topic guys. Tried to send a PM, but I don't have the required posts in the forum in order to do that.

vasil
03-18-2021, 08:49 PM
Nice. That's relatively close geographically.

My GEDmatch ID is CK8565675. Surprisingly(at least for me) my YDNA haplogroup is R1b-P312. My MtDNA haplogroup is H1b1a.

Are there some other free calculators that I can use my results on, except GEDmatch and Vahaduo?

By the way, sorry for the off topic guys. Tried to send a PM, but I don't have the required posts in the forum in order to do that.

Interesting is your Ydna from Kneza or is it from one of the surounding villages? If you want you can get your G25 coordinates from Davidski for 12$ you just paypal him the money and send him your raw file at [email protected]
http://bga101.blogspot.com/2017/10/genetic-ancestry-online-store-to-be.html

excine
03-18-2021, 09:45 PM
My father is from Osikovitsa and Vidrare just west of Teteven and my mother is from Borovtsi/Berkovitsa and Botunja/Krivodol if you tested at LivingDNA i dont think you can transfer to FTDNA. My Gedmatch is UT8918045 what is yours and what are your haplgroups?

I believed the Bulgars had some pretty long control of Sandzak back then, any toponyms reflect that? Isn't Pester seen in Bulgaria as well?

Taratorchec
03-18-2021, 10:07 PM
Interesting is your Ydna from Kneza or is it from one of the surounding villages? If you want you can get your G25 coordinates from Davidski for 12$ you just paypal him the money and send him your raw file at [email protected]
http://bga101.blogspot.com/2017/10/genetic-ancestry-online-store-to-be.html

As far as I know, the families of my grandma and grandpa from my father's line are both Knezha natives, but can't say with certainty about more distant generations.

I'll check out the G25 thingy in the future. Thanks for suggesting :)

Excine, I'm not sure about it being connected, but Pester sounds to me like "peshtera" which means cave in Bulgarian. There is also a city called Peshtera in the Rhodopes.

Kelmendasi
03-19-2021, 12:05 AM
Excine, I'm not sure about it being connected, but Pester sounds to me like "peshtera" which means cave in Bulgarian. There is also a city called Peshtera in the Rhodopes.
They are indeed both from the same Proto-Slavic root of *peťera meaning "cave". It seems to me that the toponym Pešter best correlates to the Old Church Slavonic form which is пещера (peštera) but without the suffix -a.

Taratorchec
03-19-2021, 11:20 AM
They are indeed both from the same Proto-Slavic root of *peťera meaning "cave". It seems to me that the toponym Pešter best correlates to the Old Church Slavonic form which is пещера (peštera) but without the suffix -a.

Thank God it's not Bulgarian.

Huban
03-23-2021, 02:10 PM
They are indeed both from the same Proto-Slavic root of *peťera meaning "cave". It seems to me that the toponym Pešter best correlates to the Old Church Slavonic form which is пещера (peštera) but without the suffix -a.

Pešter highlands derives its name from an old large village it used to exist there in 16th century and earlier. It was called "Peštera". Serb term is "pećina" reflecting the typical Serb change into tj and later ć. In this instance it should be Bulgarian, because there are multiple Peštera villages in Bulgaria and also there are multiple other Bulgarian toponyms nearby, most of them already being connected to my genetic cluster (which is found also in Bulgaria at 800-1000 TMRCA). And there have also been historical events involving this area and arrivals of Bulgarians in Medieval times.

Huban
03-23-2021, 03:17 PM
Thank God it's not Bulgarian.

But it is. My ancestors gave it that name. There are few other nearby settlements of even clearer Bulgarian extraction. Where people genetically very close to me have been found.
These include
Raždaginja - again giving birth in Bulgarian is raždane as opposed to Serbian rađanje, Bulgarian жд vs Serbian ђ
Boroštica - similarly Bulgarian št/щ vs Serbian ć , analogous Bulgarian village (https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D1%89%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0)

Next to Raždaginja there is Zaječiće (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaje%C4%8Di%C4%87e), derived from zajec or zaek, Torlakian or Bulgarian word for hare. Serbian is zec.
In late 16th century grandson of Ottoman magnate Ahmed-bey Silahdar (who actually built the first mosque in Sandzak) took the voynuk bashtina's from voynuks/christian sipahis of knez Ognan/his son in Zaječiće. It seems he almost 500 years ago used still this word as this village was new. And also my surname occurs in his community (a reason I connected myself to this already almost 10 years ago). That these two are connected can be seen in the fact that other two knezes of this family came from Korutan and Baljen villages, other two villages where Ahmed-Bey had his own possessions, and he resided in Korutan/Janča. Ahmed-bey's other direct possession was practically only my own village to the South which was uninhabited until the late 16th century. The fact that my own family were wealthy ktetors of Nikoljac Monastery in early 17th century, and that this village was direct property of the monastery just complement each other. And ofc Ahmed-Bey gave some benefits to other monasteries as well. So obviously just the Christian sipahis from the Pešter highalnds that were in some sort of relation to him could have settled the land.

Also nearby, village Boljare (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boljare_(Sjenica)), which ofc refers to Bolyars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar). Such villages occur only in Bulgaria.

As I've said Pešter christian sipahis other than from Zaječiće next to Raždaginja had timar in Baljen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baljen). Family tested very close to me from Raždaginja surname is without any doubt related to the Baljen, or more precisely what used to belong to the knez from Baljen, the Čarovina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Carovina) . This where we exit the Slavic Bulgarian realm.

The 15th century ancestor of these sipahis was certain Huban. Which is why I have it as my nick here. Derived of "ghob" from Codex Cumanicus and related to Mongol "ghobay". There was a bolyar Huban on Boril's court in early 13th century. No other person in history in the Western Balkans had this name.

Baljen's old name was "Balneva", a possessive added to the personal name Balin. This name was common in 15th, 16th century Bulgaria, as well as similar names. Authors differ on this name:
Serbs say it comes from Latin "Valens"
Macedonians say its related to "bal" in Decebal
Romanians say it's Slavic, related to, "white"
Ukrainians say it's Turkic
Bulgarian sources consider it either Slavic Bulgarian or Bulgar.

Some similar names that occur were Baluka (which should be Turkic), also there was a Cuman city called Balin. In any case this name is very foreign to the area.

Čarovina relates to well... So other than me there are two families from Pešter closely related to me. The only other named family closely related to us at around 800-1000 TMRCA is from Pečenjevce (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pe%C4%8Denjevce). Practically part of it is Čekmin, while nearby there is also village Čagrovac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Cagrovac). This is sufficient grounds to say that medieval Berendei Chagrovich clan did settle there (and Berendei were of Pecheneg origin). It is pronounced "Čahrovič", Serbs hate the "h" sound generally so usually it gets lost..

In 1253 Bulgarian or per some sources Bulgarian-Cuman army did visit this area, and there are other traces of them. Monastery Kumanica. Mountain Žilindar which is situated immediately above the Boroštica where I have a relative 700-800 years away from me.

I do have relatives in Bulgaria, Sofiya but it's from a study. I guess certain specific areas must be tested to find these. And Bulgarians tend to be very heterogenous and not have too many bottleneck effect people that pop out easily like in the likes of Serbs or Albanians.

None of this has much relation to Bosniaks now living in all these villages. Most of them arrived 300 or less years ago. After the battle of Wiena in 1683, most natives left the area (like these families related to me also), and there were no more Christian sipahis or the old Ottoman elite so the newcomers from Malesia and Brda flooded the area.

The fact that in 1711 we find some Kelmendi in a village where Ahmed-Bey's family had possessions is a testament to this takeover. Btw Ahmed-bey because he and his descendants had relations to these voynuks, i.e. my cluster could have been easily my own genetic cousin. Chances are high for that.

The reason you show autosomal similarities to some (I suppose) Eastern Sandzak Bosniaks might be that actually they being a mixture of Montenegrin-like and Albanian-like do tend to cluster with Bulgarians roughly speaking. Those in the Western parts of Sandžak show much more Slavic admixture, and ofc almost no typical Albanian lines the Eastern part is full of.


PS. Some Albanians patheticly many times tried to indicate that my origin is Albanian too. As all "E-V13 are Albanian" supposedly. I'd have no problem with that but I have no Albanian relatives closer than Early Iron Age and these descended to Albania from Carpathians at some point in time. And looking at these few people who were tested and where they are from one can see why is that so. If I only had no history or closer genetic matches, but I do have both.

Exercitus
03-23-2021, 07:37 PM
Huban, actually yes, there occured a important ethnic shift in the Old Raška \ Sandžak region after y. 1689, but in the basis of the Defters of Hercegovina: "Poimenični popis sandžaka vilajeta hercegovina 1477 godine" and that of Prizren that included big part of today Sanjak area: "Opširni popis prizrenskog sandžaka iz 1571. godine" there were a important presence of non-slavic people: Vlachs, also few cases of Albanians. Frankly i haven't notice any Cuman or other Turkic-like people in this Defters, so i suggest that you should search your E-V13 among those paleo-balkan people (Vlachs & Albanians) that lived in Old Raška prior the arrival of the Malisori and Brdjanin!!

Bruzmi
03-23-2021, 08:30 PM
Pešter highlands derives its name from an old large village it used to exist there in 16th century and earlier. It was called "Peštera". Serb term is "pećina" reflecting the typical Serb change into tj and later ć. In this instance it should be Bulgarian, because there are multiple Peštera villages in Bulgaria and also there are multiple other Bulgarian toponyms nearby, most of them already being connected to my genetic cluster (which is found also in Bulgaria at 800-1000 TMRCA). And there have also been historical events involving this area and arrivals of Bulgarians in Medieval times.

ESS dialects among Slavic-speakers end in southern Kosovo and from the Y-DNA samples I've seen from Gora and Shterpca, quite a few of the I2a/R1a Slavic-speakers are more related to Bulgarian/Macedonian-like populations than to I2a-Din Serbs.

Sandzak and Raska in general were part of the Bulgarian Empire for 100-150 years, but no population movement in the area has been recorded and the local, pre-medieval Slavic dialects aren't Eastern South Slavic (ESS), but Western South Slavic (Serbo-Croatian).

The /št/ in the case of Pešter predates the finalization of the split between WSS and ESS. It is not Bulgarian, it's just that the toponym is older than South Slavic diversification. Many old Sclaveni toponyms in southern Greece preserve the same /št/, but obviously they can't be classified as Bulgarian. Conversely, it's obvious that Peć as a toponym post-dates this division.

My larger point is that the fact that some Bulgarians cluster with some Sandzak Bosnians can't be explained via a highly unlikely, historically non-documented mass Bulgarian migration hypothesis to Sandzak. The reasons have probably more to do with the genealogical history of these specific families.

Huban
03-23-2021, 09:54 PM
Huban, actually yes, there occured a important ethnic shift in the Old Raška \ Sandžak region after y. 1689, but in the basis of the Defters of Hercegovina: "Poimenični popis sandžaka vilajeta hercegovina 1477 godine" and that of Prizren that included big part of today Sanjak area: "Opširni popis prizrenskog sandžaka iz 1571. godine" there were a important presence of non-slavic people: Vlachs, also few cases of Albanians. Frankly i haven't notice any Cuman or other Turkic-like people in this Defters, so i suggest that you should search your E-V13 among those paleo-balkan people (Vlachs & Albanians) that lived in Old Raška prior the arrival of the Malisori and Brdjanin!!

There were some very real Vlachs there in the area. They were called Vlachs of Sjenica. And they occupied a large area to the North of Sjenica. One of their old centers as attested in defters was a village Ursule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursule_(Sjenica)). Clearly Latin derived.

Already mentioned in 1455, they were not even fully settled at that time. The area where they were present abounds in various Paleo-Balkan hg's. Strongest by far is R-Z2705, most judging by some results of people coming from that region should be R-BY200954. But some other hg as well such as J-PH1602, some E-FGC11450. Considering their hg they may have been Albanians who were Latinised at some point.

Vlachs of Sjenica too were sipahis, and they retained their status for quite a long time. Most likely Raškovići family descend of them.

But my cluster does not occur there, though the tribal units related to me in late 16th century had the Vlachs status, everybody else in the area at the time did. And these descend from voynuks from settled villages.
There were also Paleo-Balkan populations living in the Northern Carpathians as late as 5th century AD, the Costoboci, Carpi, Daco-Iazyges who settled the Transylvania after the Roman widrawal... And well E-Z17107 has seven clades with at least Mid to Early Iron Age distance to each other in Carpathians/Eastern areas and has only 3 in the Balkans, one being mine which occurs in both..

I think Huban, Čarović, Balin, Pečenjevce, Čekmin, Čagrovac, Chekman Chagrovich of 1167, and Bulgarian incursion into Bijelo Polje of 1253/54 make it very unlikely these people were Vlachs/Armani. Additionally my family were renowned for having hoards of saddle horses, whereas Vlachs had pack horses mostly, saddle horses were rare in those days. ;) This fact prompted me to consider "nomadic connection" even before there was any DNA testing around.

There is even some evidence to suggest my ancestors were Musellem cavarly. A very old Ottoman cavalry order, only few from the Balkans belonged to it. They had no timars but they had a ciftlik that was the property of five people, closely related to each other. These were very common among Anatolian nomadics. That's how I know of this Huban, he was the father of person whose name ciftlik carried. One Musellem mentioned by name explicitly among these in late 15th century it seems. I believe my ancestors were of the class of so called Monastery Bolyars which existed even in Old Raška right there in Bijelo Polje since at least 12th century. There is evidence to suggest that Baljen village belonged to the monastery bolyars of the monastery Sopoćani.

For some Turkic traces, check better those defters. This Huban is not mentioned there, he is mentioned in Bosnian defter of 1530 as the father of a person not alive in 1530. In Crvsko at Pešter nearby you have person named Okur/Okor. Tatjana Katić proposed Slavic eye oko + ur/or which is laughable (similarly to Grković calling Shishman a Slavic name LOL) as names with oko/eye root were extremely rare and especially with such suffix. Rather in the same village in 1571 you have some "Kopun", which can be read as Kopon also (Ottoman Arabic script cannot distinguish between o/u). Now. Kopon was a Pecheneg tribe from Wallachia, and per some views it descends from a title Kopan (other being Kaban pig).

You see, there was only one kopan mentioned in history and his name was kopan Okorsis. An accident? Looking at some other names in the area probably not.

Also my clade has a weird old presence in Bosnia. Bosniaks from Bosnia have a TMRCA there of 1000 ybp, whereas that cluster hasn't been found in any Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians etc. One Bosniak is from Herzegovina but his surname (reputed to be old Bosnian) is mentioned in a Central Bosnian village of his other Bosnian genetic relatives interestingly in late 15th century. Actually on my suggestion two descendants of this old Bosnian Medieval house from 15th century were tested. Unfortunately for us, they were I-S17250. But this does not exclude that there were other Medieval Bosnians with that surname.

He has no matches in I think over 600, 700 Herzegovina Serbs tested. But it is found in Northern Transylvania. Also some Hungarian from Eastern Pannonia nearby who is in EIA, MIA distance. I do not find likely these Bosniaks (proper) have Vlach origin, but there was an influx to there from Hungarian areas in Medieval. Most basal diversity we have is atm there.

I have noticed though recently in Bosniaks from Bosnia some very close matching with some Bulgarian E-V13. I suspect these are people islamized in Bulgaria who then came to Bosnia. Most of Bosnian fortresses in 1468 were manned by the Ottomans with direct origin from Bulgaria and N.Greece. These were probably Turkish speakers as well at the time.

There are alot more defters than that. Actually a Bosnian cousin of my clade translates defters and has published something already. I can read them too, though I'm not that experienced in that field, I am going for the unpublished defters that hold information on my family.

Taratorchec
03-24-2021, 01:08 AM
But it is.

I was sarcastic.

I said that "peshtera" means cave in Bulgarian and there's also a Bulgarian city with that name and he said that it actually comes from the Old Church Slavonic "peshtera", which just sounds funny. Funny like the term "Old Church Slavonic" itself, which is basically a "politically correct" way to say Old Bulgarian without "offending" other Slavs.

The rest of your comment is very interesting. I didn't know that our ancestors left such a mark there, but I guess that it's logical. A significant portion of modern Serbia was Bulgarian for quite a while in the Middle Ages. Sadly, our neighbors want to rebrand our ancestors' legacy today.

Anyways, I didn't understand some parts of your comment, so I'll ask you for clarification.

What do you mean by "bottleneck effect people that pop out easily"?

Also, how do you know that you don't have any Albanian relatives closer than Early Iron Age?

excine
03-24-2021, 01:42 AM
Huban, actually yes, there occured a important ethnic shift in the Old Raška \ Sandžak region after y. 1689, but in the basis of the Defters of Hercegovina: "Poimenični popis sandžaka vilajeta hercegovina 1477 godine" and that of Prizren that included big part of today Sanjak area: "Opširni popis prizrenskog sandžaka iz 1571. godine" there were a important presence of non-slavic people: Vlachs, also few cases of Albanians. Frankly i haven't notice any Cuman or other Turkic-like people in this Defters, so i suggest that you should search your E-V13 among those paleo-balkan people (Vlachs & Albanians) that lived in Old Raška prior the arrival of the Malisori and Brdjanin!!

There were Albanians in Raska before Malesors migrated? Well thats quite interesting, I thought most made their arrival during the 17th and 18th centuries.

Huban
03-24-2021, 01:53 AM
There were Albanians in Raska before Malesors migrated? Well thats quite interesting, I thought most made their arrival during the 17th and 18th centuries.

Very, very few. Occasional Leka and the like here and there.

There were Vlachs of Sjenica who were mostly R-Z2705, and among them multiple occasions of some unique personal names occur. Aranid for example, related to Arianiti, multiple times among the Vlachs of Sjenica/Barča which shows their more distant origins. But if you were to search for a single Albanian carrying the name Aranid/Arianit among the thousands of Albanians in the 1485 defter of Shkoder sancak, I don't think you'd find a single one. Actually there is a list of names, and I think I checked that already.

These people were not Albanian speaking at the time, looking at Ursule etc., in 15th century they likely still spoke some East Balkan Latin dialect. There were extremely few Albanian speakers at the time in the area.

Huban
03-24-2021, 03:25 AM
I was sarcastic.

I said that "peshtera" means cave in Bulgarian and there's also a Bulgarian city with that name and he said that it actually comes from the Old Church Slavonic "peshtera", which just sounds funny. Funny like the term "Old Church Slavonic" itself, which is basically a "politically correct" way to say Old Bulgarian without "offending" other Slavs.

The rest of your comment is very interesting. I didn't know that our ancestors left such a mark there, but I guess that it's logical. A significant portion of modern Serbia was Bulgarian for quite a while in the Middle Ages. Sadly, our neighbors want to rebrand our ancestors' legacy today.

Anyways, I didn't understand some parts of your comment, so I'll ask you for clarification.

What do you mean by "bottleneck effect people that pop out easily"?

I mean that significant percentage of Serb and Albanian population descends from 10-20 men who lived 1000 years ago. So whenever any sampling on these is done, these very large "families" will pop out immediately. This is far more rare in Bulgarians and they are nowhere near as large.

Peshtera used to mean the same in OC Slavonic but the issue here is even if it were true place names such as Raždaginja with typical Bulgarian "zhd" innovation most definitely are not.

Bulgarian influence in old Rascia is actually very old. There is evidence of Tengrist Bulgars settling the area. In Northern Montenegro just South of this area Bulgar runic inscriptions similar to Pliska runes were found. One view was that tengrist Bolgars at the time of Christianization were granted refuge by the Serbs and that they settled there in late 9th century. Actually some onomastics in the area point towards possible Bolgar connection.
The runes were the known Šudikova stone.

http://aleksandarloma.com/PDF/Clanci/181%20summary.pdf

Summary of an article by the Serbian linguist Aleksandar Loma.




Also, how do you know that you don't have any Albanian relatives closer than Early Iron Age?

Because among about 1300 of Albanian families tested and the same number of Albanians from studies do not have my particular subclade. Bosniaks from Bosnia, Serbs, N.Macedonians, Bulgarians ,Romanians, Hungarians do. Except Serbs all of them are less tested than Albanians, in some cases way way less tested (Romania).

I do have plenty of Albanians at around 2800, 2900 ybp (atm its 3000). All of us have done deep BigY/NGS tests and these tests point towards that timeline.

When some cousin of mine was first tested I checked for relatives and initially Bulgarian was the only one, so I immediately thought of Bulgarian incursion in mid 13th century, or earlier. And since then other people tested only showed alot more of that Medieval Bulgarian connection, this time some very clear indications.

Kelmendasi
03-24-2021, 09:45 AM
I was sarcastic. I said that "peshtera" means cave in Bulgarian and there's also a Bulgarian city with that name and he said that it actually comes from the Old Church Slavonic "peshtera", which just sounds funny. Funny like the term "Old Church Slavonic" itself, which is basically a "politically correct" way to say Old Bulgarian without "offending" other Slavs.
Nobody was denying a connection with Bulgarian, in fact by stating that the toponym is derived from what seems to be the Old Church Slavonic form - an earlier stage in the development of the Eastern South Slavic (or Balkan Slavic) languages - I was supporting it.

This has nothing to do with being "politically correct", Old Church Slavonic is the academic and linguistic term used for this stage of Eastern South Slavic that was spoken from the ninth to eleventh centuries CE. Now if the toponym was formed in later centuries, then a connection to an earlier stage of Bulgarian (i.e. Middle Bulgarian) is more likely.

However, there are also alternate ideas, such as that suggested by user Bruzmi above. Stating that the toponym simply predates the diversification of South Slavic and that it cannot be necessarily directly connected to Eastern South Slavic.

Taratorchec
03-24-2021, 11:57 AM
Thanks for the answers, Huban.


Bulgarian influence in old Rascia is actually very old. There is evidence of Tengrist Bulgars settling the area. In Northern Montenegro just South of this area Bulgar runic inscriptions similar to Pliska runes were found. One view was that tengrist Bolgars at the time of Christianization were granted refuge by the Serbs and that they settled there in late 9th century. Actually some onomastics in the area point towards possible Bolgar connection.
The runes were the known Šudikova stone.

http://aleksandarloma.com/PDF/Clanci/181%20summary.pdf

Summary of an article by the Serbian linguist Aleksandar Loma.

Tengrist? I can see "In view of the repeated occurence on the stone of the symbol IYI presumedly designating the highest sky-god Tangra/Tengri, it seems to be a Proto-Bulgarian monument of pagan character, probably an altar or tomb-stone."

"Presumably" is the key word here. Presumably, just like the Bulgars being labeled as 100% Turkic and their deity as Tengri, but that's another topic for another time.


Because among about 1300 of Albanian families tested and the same number of Albanians from studies do not have my particular subclade. Bosniaks from Bosnia, Serbs, N.Macedonians, Bulgarians ,Romanians, Hungarians do. Except Serbs all of them are less tested than Albanians, in some cases way way less tested (Romania).

I do have plenty of Albanians at around 2800, 2900 ybp (atm its 3000). All of us have done deep BigY/NGS tests and these tests point towards that timeline.

When some cousin of mine was first tested I checked for relatives and initially Bulgarian was the only one, so I immediately thought of Bulgarian incursion in mid 13th century, or earlier. And since then other people tested only showed alot more of that Medieval Bulgarian connection, this time some very clear indications.

I see. Guess that's the benefit of BigY tests. Maybe I should do one in the future, because simply knowing that I carry the R-P312 haplogroup doesn't tell much.


Nobody was denying a connection with Bulgarian, in fact by stating that the toponym is derived from what seems to be the Old Church Slavonic form - an earlier stage in the development of the Eastern South Slavic (or Balkan Slavic) languages - I was supporting it.

This has nothing to do with being "politically correct", Old Church Slavonic is the academic and linguistic term used for this stage of Eastern South Slavic that was spoken from the ninth to eleventh centuries CE. Now if the toponym was formed in later centuries, then a connection to an earlier stage of Bulgarian (i.e. Middle Bulgarian) is more likely.

However, there are also alternate ideas, such as that suggested by user Bruzmi above. Stating that the toponym simply predates the diversification of South Slavic and that it cannot be necessarily directly connected to Eastern South Slavic.

You can't deny the "politically correct" nature of both the term "Old Church Slavonic" and also "Eastern South Slavic languages" if we are talking about that time frame.

Do you really think that anyone in Bulgaria between the 9th and 11th century called his language "Church Slavonic"?

What is the other Eastern South Slavic language present at that time? I can tell you one that emerged almost a millennium later and that's about it with the Eastern South Slavic languages.

About the Sandzak town of Peshter itself, I don't know with certainty when it got that name. Maybe it got the name before the creation of Danube Bulgaria. For now, I don't see any solid evidence for that though.

@Bruzmi, can you share the names of these Sclaveni settlements in Greece and also when they were first mentioned with their respective names?

Aspar
03-24-2021, 01:12 PM
@Taratorchec

The fact is that Old Church Slavonic is based on the Slavic dialects spoken by the Slavs around Thessaloniki which by their nature are closest to modern Bulgarian however during the time these were attested the Slavic people who spoke them weren't part of the Bulgarian Empire and thus weren't unified into the Bulgarian ethnos.
Therefore it's important to be politically correct here and call these dialects Eastern South Slavic(ESS) instead of Bulgarian.
Old Church Slavonic was one of these ESS dialects and the extraordinary thing is that there are still dialects around Thessaloniki that resemble closely OCS such as the one from Suho which is the closest thing to Old Church Slavonic. This dialect had even preserved the nassals which were lost in other dialects. Out of the modern Slavic languages, the Bulgarian is the closest thing to OCS, closer even than Macedonian which is distinguished by its /ќ/кь/kj/ and /ѓ/гь/gj/ sounds.

Taratorchec
03-24-2021, 01:50 PM
@Taratorchec

The fact is that Old Church Slavonic is based on the Slavic dialects spoken by the Slavs around Thessaloniki which by their nature are closest to modern Bulgarian however during the time these were attested the Slavic people who spoke them weren't part of the Bulgarian Empire and thus weren't unified into the Bulgarian ethnos.
Therefore it's important to be politically correct here and call these dialects Eastern South Slavic(ESS) instead of Bulgarian.
Old Church Slavonic was one of these ESS dialects and the extraordinary thing is that there are still dialects around Thessaloniki that resemble closely OCS such as the one from Suho which is the closest thing to Old Church Slavonic. This dialect had even preserved the nassals which were lost in other dialects. Out of the modern Slavic languages, the Bulgarian is the closest thing to OCS, closer even than Macedonian which is distinguished by its /ќ/кь/kj/ and /ѓ/гь/gj/ sounds.

Cyril and Methodius created Glagolitic. Their disciples used the foundation of Glagolitic and created Cyrillic. Are these languages or simply scripts that were created to fit the Slavic pronunciations?

The language that you're talking about is proto-Slavic or more specifically - it's southern branch. "Old Church Slavonic" started from the First Bulgarian Empire and was spread by it's two cultural centers - Preslav and Ohrid. The term "Old Church Slavonic" is modern and as "politically correct" as it can get. Maybe it's "correct" in the eyes of all other Slavs, but if you look at it objectively, it's nothing more than the continuation of proto-Slavic into Old Bulgarian. Sure, there are other continuations as Old Serbo-Croatian, Old Russian, and so on. That doesn't change the fact that it was developed in Bulgaria, spread by Bulgaria, and was the official language of Bulgaria for almost 200 years. I don't think that description fits a term that literally means "Old Slavic church liturgy language". How is there Old French, Old German, and so on, but Old Bulgarian is only the language of the Second Bulgarian Empire and not the first one, when it's basically the same thing, and obviously started from it?

Disclaimer - I'm not saying that proto-Slavic itself started from Bulgaria. The subsequent written form of it's southern branch started from Bulgaria and it shouldn't be confused with the language of the ancient Bulgars, who were a tribal confederation of mixed origins.

Aspar
03-24-2021, 02:52 PM
Cyril and Methodius created Glagolitic. Their disciples used the foundation of Glagolitic and created Cyrillic. Are these languages or simply scripts that were created to fit the Slavic pronunciations?

The language that you're talking about is proto-Slavic or more specifically - it's southern branch. "Old Church Slavonic" started from the First Bulgarian Empire and was spread by it's two cultural centers - Preslav and Ohrid. The term "Old Church Slavonic" is modern and as "politically correct" as it can get. Maybe it's "correct" in the eyes of all other Slavs, but if you look at it objectively, it's nothing more than the continuation of proto-Slavic into Old Bulgarian. Sure, there are other continuations as Old Serbo-Croatian, Old Russian, and so on. That doesn't change the fact that it was developed in Bulgaria, spread by Bulgaria, and was the official language of Bulgaria for almost 200 years. I don't think that description fits a term that literally means "Old Slavic church liturgy language". How is there Old French, Old German, and so on, but Old Bulgarian is only the language of the Second Bulgarian Empire and not the first one, when it's basically the same thing, and obviously started from it?

Disclaimer - I'm not saying that proto-Slavic itself started from Bulgaria. The subsequent written form of it's southern branch started from Bulgaria and it shouldn't be confused with the language of the ancient Bulgars, who were a tribal confederation of mixed origins.

My reply was in relation of OCS which is nothing more than a ESS dialect, where you've said that OCS is just the politically correct way of saying Old Bulgarian without offending other Slavs.
I didn't say anything about the scripts obviously.
In that regard, OCS can't be proto-Slavic language because it already had elements specific to South Slavic languages only and more specifically with ESS.
OCS didn't start from the Bulgarian Empire. It was standardized by Cyril and Methodius who were Greek speaking Romans and who also had knowledge of the Slavic dialects spoken around Thessaloniki. They worked by the orders of the Roman Emperor Michael in order to christianize the Slavs. Therefore if OCS is a modern invention, I doubt that Old Bulgarian is more authentic one. So again, OCS wasn't invented in Bulgaria but in the Byzantine Roman Empire and standardized by Byzantine Romans and spread to the other Slavs by them.
Their disciples were invited in Bulgaria where they spread the standardized language in Bulgaria where eventually the Bulgarian recension of OCS was born. In Serbia, the Serbian recension of OCS took place, in Russia the Russian and so on.

broder
03-24-2021, 04:02 PM
When some cousin of mine was first tested I checked for relatives and initially Bulgarian was the only one, so I immediately thought of Bulgarian incursion in mid 13th century, or earlier. And since then other people tested only showed alot more of that Medieval Bulgarian connection, this time some very clear indications.
Any of these Bulgarian matches of yours have been SNP verified as Z17107+?

Taratorchec
03-24-2021, 04:20 PM
My reply was in relation of OCS which is nothing more than a ESS dialect, where you've said that OCS is just the politically correct way of saying Old Bulgarian without offending other Slavs.
I didn't say anything about the scripts obviously.
In that regard, OCS can't be proto-Slavic language because it already had elements specific to South Slavic languages only and more specifically with ESS.
OCS didn't start from the Bulgarian Empire. It was standardized by Cyril and Methodius who were Greek speaking Romans and who also had knowledge of the Slavic dialects spoken around Thessaloniki. They worked by the orders of the Roman Emperor Michael in order to christianize the Slavs. Therefore if OCS is a modern invention, I doubt that Old Bulgarian is more authentic one. So again, OCS wasn't invented in Bulgaria but in the Byzantine Roman Empire and standardized by Byzantine Romans and spread to the other Slavs by them.
Their disciples were invited in Bulgaria where they spread the standardized language in Bulgaria where eventually the Bulgarian recension of OCS was born. In Serbia, the Serbian recension of OCS took place, in Russia the Russian and so on.

"I didn't say anything about the scripts obviously."

Your last comment - "The fact is that Old Church Slavonic is based on the Slavic dialects spoken by the Slavs around Thessaloniki..."

I already saw similar arguments from others and it's obviously connected to Cyril and Methodius who created the Glagolitic script to fit the dialects of Thessaloniki Slavs. The thing is that Old Bulgarian wasn't developed by Cyril and Methodius. Once again, they created the first Slavic writing system and not the standardized language of Bulgaria.

"In that regard, OCS can't be proto-Slavic language because it already had elements specific to South Slavic languages only and more specifically with ESS."

I didn't say that Old Church Slavonic is proto-Slavic. I said that it's a "politically correct" term used to describe the Old Bulgarian continuation of proto-Slavic.

"OCS didn't start from the Bulgarian Empire. It was standardized by Cyril and Methodius who were Greek speaking Romans and who also had knowledge of the Slavic dialects spoken around Thessaloniki. They worked by the orders of the Roman Emperor Michael in order to christianize the Slavs. Therefore if OCS is a modern invention, I doubt that Old Bulgarian is more authentic one. So again, OCS wasn't invented in Bulgaria but in the Byzantine Roman Empire and standardized by Byzantine Romans and spread to the other Slavs by them."

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/ocsol - "Because of the Balkan origin of the earliest manuscripts, OCS is at times termed Old Bulgarian, though this nomenclature has fallen out of fashion."

I don't claim Bulgarians to be "the most authentic Slavs". I claim that the First Bulgarian Empire used Old Bulgarian and not some made-up umbrella term, created to "please everyone".

Another quote from the same link - "It is supposed, however, that in the 9th century the dialectal differences were still minor enough that mutual intelligibility was possible across a wide expanse of the Slavic-speaking community. This view is supported by the fact that the efforts of Cyril and Methodius were conducted through the medium of OCS alone; presumably they chose this language so that their translations would be suitable for conversion of the pan-Slavic community. It is not quite clear to what degree the language of the OCS manuscripts resembles the actual spoken language of the region."

But of course every Macedonian on the internet is going to try to convince me of the "holy truth" that Old Bulgarian is a product of the Macedonian Thessaloniki dialect, therefore "Old Macedonian". Maybe you like that name better.

Also, guess that I should thank Byzantium for spreading the writing system of Bulgaria to Southern and Eastern Slavs. LOL

If you want, we can continue the discussion on PM, because the thread is about Sandzak Bosnians and we are cluttering it with off-topic.

Huban
03-24-2021, 05:01 PM
Any of these Bulgarian matches of yours have been SNP verified as Z17107+?

I cannot verify somebody from a study just like that. But I already explained to you, Bulgarian is 100 % closely related to me as he sports a Z17107 defining mutation, three A24066 defining mutations (including one extremely slow STR), and a A24049 defining mutation. He only does not sport two younger mutations that define subclusters and actually prove that the relation is close but not closer than high Medieval. My clade is just very lucky. Serb not far from him geographically sports also a A24070 triple back mutation.

Nevertheless I am trying to get to that person even though he is from a study. And my focus is not so much on Bulgarian, my focus is on Pečenjevce and few of its neighbor villages that harbored same old population as attested in Ottoman defters. My focus is also on other villages. Any additional finds there will end any discussion about the affiliations of my cluster once and for all. I always get my way so I will get samples from there.

Enough about me, why did your family change their surname?? :) Reverted back to the old surname? In Urosevic's book in your village only one family descends of your fis. I see families there were settled by the Bey as ciftciye.

broder
03-24-2021, 05:11 PM
I cannot verify somebody from a study just like that. But I already explained to you, Bulgarian is 100 % closely related to me as he sports a Z17107 defining mutation, three A24066 defining mutations (including one extremely slow STR), and a A24049 defining mutation. He only does not sport two younger mutations that define subclusters and actually prove that the relation is close but not closer than high Medieval. My clade is just very lucky. Serb not far from him geographically sports also a A24070 triple back mutation.

Nevertheless I am trying to get to that person even though he is from a study. And my focus is not so much on Bulgarian, my focus is on Pečenjevce and few of its neighbor villages that harbored same old population as attested in Ottoman defters. My focus is also on other villages. Any additional finds there will end any discussion about the affiliations of my cluster once and for all. I always get my way so I will get samples from there.

Enough about me, why did your family change their surname?? :) Reverted back to the old surname? In Urosevic's book in your village only family one descends of your fis. I see families there were settled by the Bey as ciftciye.

So you have built all that theory based on supposed matches from low res samples. Hopefully it stands for your sake :p

My family never changed their last name. Actually we're the only family in my village that kept their old family name as a last name. Urosevic never went to my village, Vukanovic did however. We were known as Lekt and still are known as such. Vukanovic recorded us as 'Lek', in 'Banjica - Donja Drenica' (Baica e Helshanit in Alb).

Maybe you have confused me with someone else?

broder
03-24-2021, 05:31 PM
You probably have looked at the wrong Baica, that's near Lipjan. That other Baice in Alb is known as Baica e Kolshit, and they are pred Shale fis wise.

Huban
03-24-2021, 05:53 PM
So you have build all that theory based on supposed matches from low res samples. Hopefully it stands for your sake ��

I do with what I have at disposal. It helps that some of these Power Plex matches i have are very nearby so logically because of that they are surely related too. And they are very close by GD. Also I repeat my clade is probably the most distinct V13 clade on low-res. That's not the same thing as some random or even a somewhat more distinct clade. There are many E-V13 Y111 haplotypes that are less distinct than my clade on Y17/Y23..

Also it is harder to "mobilize" Serbs for deep testing unless it's some "ideal" origin, i.e. Slavic hg, just as it is the case for Albanians of say Slavic hg's.

Nevertheless I made initial prediction based on one Bulgarian 4 years ago before I was tested. And further samples came from Bulgarian named villages nearby and from Pečenjevce. That sounds to me as confirming my initial prediction.

Also whatever FTDNA haplotype even from far away places was interesting for me has been SNP profiled or BigY has been ordered. One reason I have not profiled yet Serbs for BigY is that I wanted to focus on some other ethnicities where proposed ancestry was "more popular". Why don't you test Hungarians who are likely some basal R-Z2705?? They are there for years..

And it's not all that theory. My family were wealthy 400 years ago. That's a fact. And the whereabouts of Ahmed-bey Silahdar who held our village since 1485, close links of his family with Christian sipahis from Pešter who literally match my Pešter relatives in both location and implied location (through unique surname which dates to at least 18th century) are also proven facts. The Bulgarian/Kipchak named ancestor of these voynuks is also a documented fact.

The moment I found facts about Ahmed-bey and his descendants was the moment everything was made very clear about our origins. My villages name was the second name, second names were brought by somebody, as at the time the only person who held it was him, it is actually implied that he was the carrier of this name i.e. he was our close relative.

The construction I made, I would have made it without the Y-DNA in existence. As I already years ago predicted based on surnames among voynuks from Zaječiće that we will be likely related to them. Back then I knew nothing about Ahmed-bey that I know today. So basically I did predict long ago we will get some genetic cousins from there. And then ofc I would have recognized their Bulgarian/Kipchak named ancestor and would connect it to the Bulgarian incursion of 1253/54.


My family never changed their last name. Actually we're the only family in my village that kept their old family name as a last name. Urosevic never went to my village, Vukanovic did however. We were known as Lekt and still are known as such. Vukanovic recorded us as 'Lek', in 'Banjica - Donja Drenica' (Baica e Helshanit in Alb).

Maybe you have confused me with someone else?


You probably have looked at the wrong Baica, that's near Lipjan. That other Baice in Alb in known as Baica e Kolshit, and they are pred Shale fis wise.

I read something from Urosevic and I thought I might check some of your families, I was looking at Glogovac. The only member of your fis was some Jasharit. But I didn't read Vukanovic. I see now Lagja Cėrvadiku nearby, is the singer Shaqir Cėrvadiku from there? That surname does look unusual.

broder
03-24-2021, 07:13 PM
I do with what I have at disposal. It helps that some of these Power Plex matches i have are very nearby so logically because of that they are surely related too. And they are very close by GD. Also I repeat my clade is probably the most distinct V13 clade on low-res. That's not the same thing as some random or even a somewhat more distinct clade. There are many E-V13 Y111 haplotypes that are less distinct than my clade on Y17/Y23..

Also it is harder to "mobilize" Serbs for deep testing unless it's some "ideal" origin, i.e. Slavic hg, just as it is the case for Albanians of say Slavic hg's.

Nevertheless I made initial prediction based on one Bulgarian 4 years ago before I was tested. And further samples came from Bulgarian named villages nearby and from Pečenjevce. That sounds to me as confirming my initial prediction.

Also whatever FTDNA haplotype even from far away places was interesting for me has been SNP profiled or BigY has been ordered. One reason I have not profiled yet Serbs for BigY is that I wanted to focus on some other ethnicities where proposed ancestry was "more popular". Why don't you test Hungarians who are likely some basal R-Z2705?? They are there for years..

And it's not all that theory. My family were wealthy 400 years ago. That's a fact. And the whereabouts of Ahmed-bey Silahdar who held our village since 1485, close links of his family with Christian sipahis from Pešter who literally match my Pešter relatives in both location and implied location (through unique surname which dates to at least 18th century) are also proven facts. The Bulgarian/Kipchak named ancestor of these voynuks is also a documented fact.

The moment I found facts about Ahmed-bey and his descendants was the moment everything was made very clear about our origins. My villages name was the second name, second names were brought by somebody, as at the time the only person who held it was him, it is actually implied that he was the carrier of this name i.e. he was our close relative.

The construction I made, I would have made it without the Y-DNA in existence. As I already years ago predicted based on surnames among voynuks from Zaječiće that we will be likely related to them. Back then I knew nothing about Ahmed-bey that I know today. So basically I did predict long ago we will get some genetic cousins from there. And then ofc I would have recognized their Bulgarian/Kipchak named ancestor and would connect it to the Bulgarian incursion of 1253/54.





I read something from Urosevic and I thought I might check some of your families, I was looking at Glogovac. The only member of your fis was some Jasharit. But I didn't read Vukanovic. I see now Lagja Cėrvadiku nearby, is the singer Shaqir Cėrvadiku from there? That surname does look unusual.

Still, I would be more reserved if I was you until I confirm that they are indeed Z17107+

Gllogovac in Drenice? Urosevic never did any field work in Drenice. Only Tatomir Vukanovic managed to gather data there. And no Jashari in my fis in Baice or Gllogovac/Drenas.

Yeah, lagja Cervadiku is in Poklek - a village that borders Drenas. Yes, Shaqir is from there. They're Sop and muhaxher from Jabllanice, so their last name most likely represents an old toponym from somewhere around there (a Caravadice like the one by Obiliq perhaps). Pretty common among muhaxhers to carry such last names.

See Baice attached:
44007

PS. this village never belonged to any Ciflic. Was owned by Elshani/Thaēi basically for at least the last 350/400 years. Along with bordering villages including all of Gllogovac/Drenas. Who owned it before that, it's not known. I know Gjinolli (a certain Jashar Pasha) attempted to take this region under their realm in late 19th century but their forces were defeated in Gllogovac/Drenas.

excine
03-24-2021, 08:28 PM
Do the E-V13 subclades Serbs carry hint at any possible Albanian ancestry? Or is it unrelated to Albanians

Hawk
03-25-2021, 07:24 AM
Do the E-V13 subclades Serbs carry hint at any possible Albanian ancestry? Or is it unrelated to Albanians

Some of them yes, but majority no. It's impossible. The theory that all Balkan E-V13 descends from E-V13 Albanians was being pushed by some non-EV-13 Albanians who despise us and want to minify our presence among ancient populations. So, take them for granted.

Exercitus
03-25-2021, 12:01 PM
About the Albanian onomastic, i think that every Balkan Medievalist (especially those studying the Ottoman Defters and period) should have the basic knowledge and notions concerning the peculiarity of the pan-albanian (Gheg & Tosk) anthroponymy: etymology, derivation, suffixes etc in order to 'decipher' this crucial Documents !!
Few examples:
- Tanush\i it cames from the Byzantine\Christian name\exonym Athanassius. Every person that bears this specific name must be of a Albanian-speaking background !!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanush_Thopia

- Lesh\Llesh\Lleshdri and Lekė\Leka both names came from the Byzantine\Christian name Alexander !! Saint Alexander in Old Albanian is Shen Llesh\ShindLlesh (plenty of toponyms dedicated to this Saint) or Shin Lleshdri! So every person that bears this specific name must be of a Albanian-speaking background !!

- Gjika, derives from Gjin-> Gjink-> Gjika\o (plenty of examples!) so it cames directly from the wellknown pan-albanian name GJIN !! Every person that bears this specific name must be of a Albanian-speaking background !!

- Gjoka, derives from Gjon-> Gjonk-> Gjokė\a (plenty of examples!)so it cames directly from the wellknown pan-albanian name GJON !! Every person that bears this specific name must be of a Albanian-speaking background !!
Gjoka Shalesi the Tosk Albanian in Morea\Peleponnese year 1463.
https://i.imgur.com/QEVFlXx.jpg

The only exception, the extremely rare case through the Defters, the South Slavic Đoko\Gjoko a diminutive of the name Đorđe, which i guess it might be explained through the Albanian onomastic influence!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djoko

Other Albanian names like: Koka (alb. head as slv. Glava), Lika, Kuci, Marashi, Luli\a (as the fresh case of the Albanian R-Z2705 LulGjuraj), Doda (not as the Vlachic Dodo\Dodul), Shmil etc.

Now let's see the area of Old Rashka\Peshter in the basis of the Defter y. 1571:

Село Црпско
Мароје Марко; Радивој Мароје; Јанко Мароје неожењен; Лула Владисав; Костадин Лула неожењен; Радич Владисав; Павле Радич; Вук Ђурин; Радоња Вук; Војин Вук неожењен; Радулин Ђурин; Гвозден Радулин неожењен; Рушко Јован; Дејан Рушко; Вукоман Рушко неожењен; Рус Иван; Вучихна Русин; Рајчин Дамјан; Рајко Рајчин неожењен; Раден Љубим; Ракља Раден; Рајич Раден; Вук Раден неожењен; ВучетаБранош; Радован Вучета; Вук Мило; Радоња Вук; Димјо Вук; Сава Вук неожењен; Михаилo Радоња; Рајо Михаило неожењен; Селак Окур; Илија Селак; Младен Окур; Матеј Младен; Радисав Младен неожењен; Јован Ђурин; Радоје Јован; Митрешиља Јован неожењен; Јаков Милош; Живко Милош; Јакша Милош; Вукоман Јаков неожењен; Ђуро Јован; Копун Ђуро; Манојло Јован; Јанко Јован; Комлен Јован неожењен; Арђан Јован неожењен; Стојан Радо; Хајдар Абдулах на Вучковој баштини.


Village Crpsko
Maroje Marko; Radivoj Maroje; Janko Maroje; Lula Vladisav; Kostandin Lula; Radic Vladisav; Pavle Radic; Vuk Gjurin; Radonja Vuk; Vojin Vuk; Radulin Gjurin; Gvozhden Radulin; Rushko Jovan; Dejan Rushko; Vukoman Rushko; Rus Ivan; Vucinja Rusin; Rajcin Damjan; Rajko Rajcin; Raden Ljubim; Raklja Raden; Rajic Raden; Vuk Raden; Vuceta Branosh; Radovan Vuceta; Vuk Milo; Radonja Vuk; Dimjo Vuk; Sava Vuk; Mihailo Radonja; Rajo Mihailo; Selak Okur*; Ilija Selak; Mladen Okur; Matej Mladen; Radisav Mladen; Jovan Gjurin; Radoje Jovan; Mitreshilja Jovan; Jakov Milosh; Zhivko Milosh; Jaksha Milosh; Vukoman; Gjuro Jovan; Kopun* Gjuro; Manojlo Jovan; Janko Jovan; Komlen Jovan; Argjan(Argjir); Stojan Rado; Hajdar Abdullah of the Vuckovoj bashtina.

* The names Okoje, Okunović and Oketić are recorded in the Chrysobulls. It is possible that Okur originated from the basis of Oko- and the continuation of ur

Frankly Huban i think that Selak Okur was a Serb and Kopun Gjuro a Vlach (as Radulin, Rushko -reddish-, Rusin etc)

Exercitus
03-25-2021, 12:16 PM
Село Велика Тузина
Радаш Мироје; Вучић Радосаљ неожењен; Вукола Мироје; Ивко Вукола; Вукић Радисав; Рајич Вукић неожењен; Врлета Радиш; Матеј Радиш; Соко Врлета неожењен; Ђура Радман; Јован Радман неожењен; Гика Драгишић; Врујица Гика; Селак Радоња; Вук Радоња; Милак Радоња; Ђурин Радоња; Вучко Вук; Јован Вучко; Цветашин Вучко неожењен; Рашко Срђа; Ралин Срђа; Војин Срђа неожењен; Никола Грубач; Димјо Којчин; Радојко Димјо; Младен Радивој; Илија Димјо неожењен; Вујица Мировић; Младен Мировић; Младко Белоје; Комлен Младко доселац; Радоје Врадеш; Младенко Врадеш; Јован Радисав неожењен; Алекса Радисав неожењен; Радисав Павко; Радисав Радован; Вукадин Никола; Радо Михач; Вук Радо; Вуколин Радо; Вујица Радо неожењен; Лазар Павле; Вукосав Лазар неожењен; Петар Вуксан; Живко Петар; Михаило Драгаш; Рајко Драгаш; Манојло Драгаш; Драгојло Драгаш неожењен; Младен Драгаш неожењен; Павун Драгаш неожењен; Вукоје Лепин;Влашко Радич; Ђура Херак; Војко Ђуро неожењен; Љубив Марко; Симеун Љубив; Филип Љубив неожењен; Степан Љубив неожењен; Радоња Илијаш; Секула Радоња; Војин Радоња неожењен; Вукадин Јован; Гика Ђура кнез; Вукоман Гика; Матеј Гика неожењен; Алекса Дејан; баштина Марко држе је становници села; баштина Радашин држе је становници села; баштина Вукица држе је становници села; баштина Степан држи је Никола; баштина Јанко држи је Радован

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tuzinje,+Serbia/@43.1081769,20.0240417,35229m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1352ce752ed8174b:0x2d581 169fc48b304!8m2!3d43.1270247!4d20.1223909

Village Velika Tuzina
Radash Miroje; Vucic Radosalj; Vukola Miroje; Ivko Vukola; Vukic Radisav; Rajic Vukic; Vrleta Radish; Matej Radish; Soko Vrleta; Gjura Radman; Jovan Radman; Gjika Dragishici; Vrujica Gjika; Selak Radonja; Vuk Radonja; Milak Radonja; Gjurin Radonja; Vucko Vuk; Jovan Vucko; Cvetashin Vucko, Rashko Sergja; Ralin Sergja; Vojin Sergja; Nikola Grubac; Dimjo Kojcin; Radojko Dimjo; Mladen Radivoj; Ilija Dimjo; Vujica Mirovic; Mladen Mirovic; Mladko Beloje; Komlen Mladko; Radoje Vradesh; Mladenko Vradesh; Jovan Radisav; Aleksa Radisav; Radisav Pavko; Radisav Radovan; Vukadin Nikola; Rado Mihac; Vuk Rado; Vukolin Rado; Vujica Rado; Llazar Pavle; Vukosav Lazar; Peter Vuksan; Zhivko Peter; Mihailo Dragash; Rajko Dragash; Manojlo Dragash; Dragojlo Dragash; Mladen Dragash; Pavun Dragash; Vukoje Lepin;Vlashko Radic; Gjura Herak; Vojko Gjuro; Ljubiv Marko; Simeun Ljubiv; Filip Ljubiv; Stepan Ljubiv; Radonja Ilijash; Sekula Radonja; Vojin Radonja; Vukadin Jovan; Gjika Gjura Knez; Vukoman Gjika; Matej Gjika; Aleksa Dejan..!!


Село Прелог
Станоје Ђорђе; поп Вуксав; Смољан Вукашин; Љеш Никола; Радич Радисав; Мараш Радич; Вуксан Радич; Тодор Вуковић; Радуле Вук; баштина Грубина Радоња држи је поп Вукосав на основу тапије; баштина Вуксан Драгић држи је Љеш Никола на основу тапије

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Prijelozi,+Montenegro/@42.9277471,19.5333265,70665m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x135297dbf10d5d4b:0x660d9 9495d23d0d1!8m2!3d42.9529754!4d19.7874439

Village Prelog
Stanoje Gjorgje; Pop(Priest) Vuksav; Smoljan(Shmiljan) Vukashin; Llesh Nikolla; Radic Radisav; Marash Radic; Vuksan Radic;Todor Vukovic; Radul Vuk; bashtina Grubina Radonja; bashtina Vuksan Dragic held by Llesh Nikolla.


Село Барошић
Чифтлик у руци џиндије Хусрева, даје ушур; баштина Јоко држи је Тимур б. Килич чифт; баштина Вукоман држи је џиндија Јолдаш б. Омер чифт; Мараш Рајо; Павле Мараш; Цветко Мараш; Пејо Мараш; Јаков Мараш неожењен; Рајко Мараш; Радич Мараш неожењен; баштина Милашин Никола држи је Мараш Бежан; Радич Петар на баштини Марка; Новак Радич; Ранко Радич неожењен; баштина Новак држи је Милош Радисав из села Радоњић; баштина Влајко Вукча држи је Милош Радисав из села Радоњић

Village Baroshic ( near village Брестовик\Brestovik, Bihor )
Ciftlig in the hand of xhindija Husrev, gives ushur; Joko's bashtina is held by Timur Kilic pair; bashtina Vukoman held by xhindija Joldash Omer pair; Marash Rajo; Pavle Marashi; Zvetko Marashi; Pejo Marashi; Jakov Marashi unmarried; Rajko Marashi; Radic Marashi unmarried; bashtina Milashin Nikolla held by Marash Bezhani; Radic Petar; Novak Radic; Ranko Radic unmarried; bashtina Novak held by Milosh Radisav from village Radonjić; bashtina Vlajko Vukca held by Milosh Radisav from village Radonjić


Село Брдарева(Бродарево)
Љешан* Вукдраг; Радо Вук; Марин Вук; Радоња Вук; Радул Вукман; Павле Вукман; Никола Радул неожењен; Радоња Вук; Драгаш Радоња; Дракула Радоња; Радивој Радевић неожењен; Степан Димитар; Лазар Радивој; баштина Вук Радивој држи је Лазар Радивој; Марко Драгић; Живко Марко; Вук Живко; Милко Вук; Аранид Вук неожењен; баштина Вук држи је његов брат Бехрам; Јован Ђурко; Радисав Ђурко; Павле Ђурко; Вукоман Радисав; Јеремијо Вукоман; Михаил Вук неожењен; Вујица Вукман неожењен; баштина Вук Ненко држи је Благој из села Жакут; баштина Рахоје држи је Љешан Вукдраг.

* Од влашког имена Љеш


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Brodarevo,+Serbia/@43.2372241,19.4309516,70309m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1352ad01c5203fc5:0xcdf8e ca2228ccd58!8m2!3d43.2196097!4d19.7264281

Village Brdareva
Lleshan* Vukdrag; Rado Vuk; Marin Vuk; Radonja Vuk; Radul Vukman; Pavle Vukman; Nikola Radul; Radonja Vuk; Dragash Radonja; Drakula Radonja; Radivoj Radevic; Stepan Dimitar; Lazar Radivoj; bashtina Vuk Radivoj held by Llazar Radivoj; Marko Dragic; Zhivko Marko; Vuk Zhivko; Millko Vuk; Arianit Vuk ; bashtina Vuk held by his brother Behram; Jovan Gjurko; Radisav Gjurko; Pavle Gjurko; Vukoman Radisav; Jeremije Vukoman; Mihail Vuk; Vujica Vukman; bashtina Vuk Nenko held by Blagoj from village Zhakut; bashtina Rahoje held by Lleshan Vukdrag.

* from the Vlach name Llesh ??? <- This is a concrete example of the astonishing ignorance toward the Albanian onomastics !!

Bruzmi
03-25-2021, 12:31 PM
Do the E-V13 subclades Serbs carry hint at any possible Albanian ancestry? Or is it unrelated to Albanians

There are E-V13 subclades among Serbs and other Slavic groups in the Balkans which show a late medieval or an early modern "split" from Albanian lineages. It's obvious that these people were Albanians and their descendants over time became part of other groups. This process is still ongoing.

There are other E-V13 subclades among Slavic groups in the Balkans which show a Roman or a post-Roman split from present-day Albanian lineages. This population was most likely composed of speakers of Proto-Albanian or a closely related dialect.

These are fairly simple observations and shouldn't be politicized. As more samples emerge, we'll get a clearer picture.

What we should all remember is that there is no identity based on just haplogroups, despite the importance of notions of kinship in determining identity in many groups. There is no "us" based on a single haplogroup in real life. Y-DNA research helps us understand the different pathways of humanity and how we all came to be and form the identities we have today.

Exercitus
03-25-2021, 12:35 PM
Other examples from the Defter of year 1571:

- Radman Tanushi, north Bjelo Polje
https://i.imgur.com/s4D76st.jpg

- Suvi Do, Tutin
Gjon Milko
https://i.imgur.com/RMsXp4T.jpg

- Bashtina Gjon, Banjska, Zvecan, N. Kosovo
https://i.imgur.com/ZwH5wgN.jpg

- Radashin Gjoni, village Junake, Banjska, N. Kosovo
https://i.imgur.com/tPF7LsQ.jpg


- Village Borojevic, North Tutin, Peshter
alb. Vukadin Kuci & Martin Lika
vlch. Sekula Vuceta & Vid Sekula
https://i.imgur.com/N9idZ7k.jpg

- Village Slavkovic, south Sjenica
alb. Vuk Doda
vlch. Stanisha Radule
https://i.imgur.com/gfEM9PF.jpg

- Village Bekova, north Novi Pazar
alb. Niko Koka
https://i.imgur.com/15Wh9Va.jpg

- Village Sebeceva, east Novi Pazar
alb. Gjon Noja
https://i.imgur.com/MIL1PYN.jpg

etc etc
The majority of non-Slavic people were Vlachs\Arumuns hence the "Stari Vlah" (Albanian also, in a minor percentage, i guess as remnants of an old stratum !!)

Hawk
03-25-2021, 01:02 PM
There are E-V13 subclades among Serbs and other Slavic groups in the Balkans which show a late medieval or an early modern "split" from Albanian lineages. It's obvious that these people were Albanians and their descendants over time became part of other groups. This process is still ongoing.

There are other E-V13 subclades among Slavic groups in the Balkans which show a Roman or a post-Roman split from present-day Albanian lineages. This population was most likely composed of speakers of Proto-Albanian or a closely related dialect.

These are fairly simple observations and shouldn't be politicized. As more samples emerge, we'll get a clearer picture.

What we should all remember is that there is no identity based on just haplogroups, despite the importance of notions of kinship in determining identity in many groups. There is no "us" based on a single haplogroup in real life. Y-DNA research helps us understand the different pathways of humanity and how we all came to be and form the identities we have today.

Can you tell us which are the subclades?

excine
03-25-2021, 03:19 PM
Dang, its quite amazing to see that the albanian population coexisted with the orthodox serbs before the malesors started migrating, I'd assume if we go more back in time we'd see more of a proto-albanian vlach symbiosis in Sandzak (Raska)

excine
03-25-2021, 04:02 PM
Anyone here know what Y-DNA do the Bratonozici tribe carry?

Bruzmi
03-25-2021, 04:15 PM
...

The same discussion has been had before at the closed thread about E-V13 and this isn't a thread about E-V13, but about Sandzak Muslims. This should be respected so I'm not going to reply again in full. There are also many threads about the different families which stem from medieval Albanian tribes which carried E-V13.

But let's do a quick review E-A18833 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18833/) (formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp) since more and more information is emerging about it.

E-A18833>Y172393>FT146201 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FT146201/) (formed 1500 ybp, TMRCA 850 ybp) :
1 Albanian who descends from the Bobi tribe of the Dukagjin highlands.

E-A18833>Y172393>A9739 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A9739/) (formed 1500 ybp, TMRCA 1350 ybp):
FT61051 (formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 350 ybp): 2 Bulgarians - one identified as being from Radevtsi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radevtsi), central Bulgaria
Y190254* (formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 1000 ybp): 1 Bulgarian from Novo Selo, Vidin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novo_Selo,_Vidin_Province) (northwesternmost Bulgaria)
Y190253 (formed 1000 ybp, TMRCA 500 ybp): 2 Serbs from Šetonje (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0etonje), central Serbia

The village of Radevtsi was settled by Vlachs (https://revista.acadsudest.ro/Arhiv%C4%83/Revista%202016/RESEE_2016.pdf) during the 16th century under Petru cel Tānăr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Younger). The Serbs under E-Y190253 know that their families migrated from Negotin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotin_Valley) to Šetonje during the 18th century. The distance between Novo Selo (Vidin) and Negotin is ~30km. The geographical homeland of E-A9739+ in the early Middle Ages was in the Vlach/Romanian-speaking area of present-day eastern Serbia and the border region between Serbia-Romania-Bulgaria.

Under A9739* there are 2 Bosnian Muslims/Bosniaks from Bosanska Krajina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosanska_Krajina) (western Bosnia) and central Bosnia (as reported on the Serbian Genealogical Project 'Poreklo' (https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=4773.0)).

E-A18833>Y172393>A18844 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18844/) (formed 1500 ybp, TMRCA 1300 ybp):
Many results in Montenegro, Serbia, some in Bosnia, one in Bulgaria. A18844 are linked to the medieval Albanian Mataruga tribe and its offshoots throughout the central Balkans during its migration from its initial homeland in Katunska Nahija (from the word "katund", pasture settlement) and Old Herzegovina, present-day Montenegro where A18844 is found among the later Montenegrin Bjelice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjelice), Riđani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ri%C4%91ani) and other tribal communities. The Mataruga in 1477 are also found in Pljevlja (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge,_Montenegro)and Prijepolje where they form their own nahija in present-day Sandzak. Their slavicization wasn't yet completed because one of their heads bore the name Vojko Arbanash and some villages still had Albanian toponymy (Dobroja Bukur, Gurovik, Dardaca). (This information also partly answers the question about Albanian presence in Sandzak before 1689). Later, the Mataruga migrated to central Serbia (Mataruge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge_(Kraljevo)), Mataruška Banja (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataru%C5%A1ka_Banja)) and others parts of the region.

Summary: Prior to Slavic migrations, there were two clusters of E-A18833>Y172393 in the Balkans. One was Albanian, the other was Vlach. We don't know their precise location but in the Middle Ages the Albanian cluster was found in northernmost present-day Albania and present-day 'Old Montenegro', while the Vlach in eastern Serbia. A9739* reported results suggest an original location to the north of the Albanian cluster in Bosnia, but we can't draw any conclusions at the moment. The eastern Serbian/western Bulgarian cluster is the result of the acculturation of the Vlach group and the Montenegrin/western Serbian cluster is the result of the acculturation of a part of the Albanian group.

*All TMRCA based on v. 9.00 at Yfull

This doesn't change the modern identity of people. Identity is very complex and doesn't exclusively derive from one's lineage. The above example shows why we should pay attention to the specific historical details of the families and groups which carry each hg/clade. HGs have no history by themselves.

Pribislav
03-25-2021, 05:18 PM
Anyone here know what Y-DNA do the Bratonozici tribe carry?

Q2-L275>M378>L245>Y2209>BZ3000 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-BZ3000/)

Huban
03-25-2021, 05:52 PM
Still, I would be more reserved if I was you until I confirm that they are indeed Z17107+

True, one needs to be careful, yet 4 BigY/NGS results of my branch do determine the stability of our multiple defining STR's. But I should get BigY from those places too in the near future, and I got few of my brotherhood members interested in this.



Gllogovac in Drenice? Urosevic never did any field work in Drenice. Only Tatomir Vukanovic managed to gather data there. And no Jashari in my fis in Baice or Gllogovac/Drenas.

Yeah, lagja Cervadiku is in Poklek - a village that borders Drenas. Yes, Shaqir is from there. They're Sop and muhaxher from Jabllanice, so their last name most likely represents an old toponym from somewhere around there (a Caravadice like the one by Obiliq perhaps). Pretty common among muhaxhers to carry such last names.

See Baice attached:
44007

PS. this village never belonged to any Ciflic. Was owned by Elshani/Thaēi basically for at least the last 350/400 years. Along with bordering villages including all of Gllogovac/Drenas. Who owned it before that, it's not known. I know Gjinolli (a certain Jashar Pasha) attempted to take this region under their realm in late 19th century but their forces were defeated in Gllogovac/Drenas.

You can see I'm not from there lol, I was looking at Gllogoc, Глоговце (also Glogovac in Urosevic's book) near Lipljan. Totally different place. There is Jasharovit from the Thaci fis there. Is Ilir Shaqiri also from there? I also see village Polluzha nearby. Many "hardcore" Albanians seem to be from there.

Urosevic said some Hahxi Ali-Bey from Prishtina had a ciftlik there before WW1 (Gllogoc). This is what I'm used to, finding info on some Ottoman figures. Regarding that Ahmed-bey from Sandzak, I found his sons, grandsons, and greatgrandsons, ranging from late 15th to early 17th century, and even his daughter and whom she married and their offspring. None of that was known (though probably very few paid attention to that).

He also said there are some albanised Roma/Gypsy families there that have entered the Berisha, Sop and Krasniq. Wasn't there some I-PH908 or E-A7065 result of Roma origin from Berisha fis?

Huban
03-25-2021, 06:17 PM
Village Brdareva
Lleshan* Vukdrag; Rado Vuk; Marin Vuk; Radonja Vuk; Radul Vukman; Pavle Vukman; Nikola Radul; Radonja Vuk; Dragash Radonja; Drakula Radonja; Radivoj Radevic; Stepan Dimitar; Lazar Radivoj; bashtina Vuk Radivoj held by Llazar Radivoj; Marko Dragic; Zhivko Marko; Vuk Zhivko; Millko Vuk; Arianit Vuk ; bashtina Vuk held by his brother Behram; Jovan Gjurko; Radisav Gjurko; Pavle Gjurko; Vukoman Radisav; Jeremije Vukoman; Mihail Vuk; Vujica Vukman; bashtina Vuk Nenko held by Blagoj from village Zhakut; bashtina Rahoje held by Lleshan Vukdrag.

* from the Vlach name Llesh ??? <- This is a concrete example of the astonishing ignorance toward the Albanian onomastics !!

This is true regarding Lesh, but you cannot translate Aranid as Arianit. "t" and "d" letters in Arabic script are very different so Aranid is Aranid. Even though it is related to Arianit. In general Katic does know alot and she is an expert in the field.



About the Albanian onomastic, i think that every Balkan Medievalist (especially those studying the Ottoman Defters and period) should have the basic knowledge and notions concerning the peculiarity of the pan-albanian (Gheg & Tosk) anthroponymy: etymology, derivation, suffixes etc in order to 'decipher' this crucial Documents !!


I know etymology of all those names. But there are also "true" Albanian names i.e. names that are not Christian. And these are attested actually in Serbian Chrysobull of Dečani, there Petar Kul and Lješ Tuz are mentioned.



Frankly Huban i think that Selak Okur was a Serb and Kopun Gjuro a Vlach (as Radulin, Rushko -reddish-, Rusin etc)

I know about few such names in earlier sources, but my point is -or/-ur suffix was very rare. It is not likely a rare root would be paired with a rare suffix. Kopun in Italian means Cappone, fattened rooster. Some Serbs from Croatia have surname Kopunović, but this does not derive from a personal name but profession. And I find it hard to believe someone in that area would call a son a rooster, especially as nobody else did it.

Check Krnja Jela in 1571. Baština called Kuman. Točilova on Pešter, Tugan/Togan and his sons. Devreč, Dogan.

There is village Gostun. There in 1485 among voynuks there was Drman. There are few old Bosniak families from there that I'd like to test. Stranjane Yarmen. 1485 Tuzina voynuks few had the name Dulko, 1571 Goševo on Pešter Toholj. There were various other Toholj around though. Once I tried to fit that name in context with these:

Avitohol lived 300 years. His clan was Dulo and his year (of ascending to the throne) dilom tvirem.
Irnik lived 150 years. His clan Dulo and his year dilom tverim.
Gostun, the regent, 2 years. His clan Ermi and his year dokhs tvirem.

The fact that a Pecheneg, or Cuman name of Pecheneg origin Darman occurs in voynuks of Gostun (Pulaha wrongly translated it as Gusnova, "n" and "t" differ by one dot above, and "v" + "a" van look like "n") in 1485 does indicate something was odd about that place. This Darman occurs in Radonjic near Bijelo Polje.

Huban
03-25-2021, 06:30 PM
Can you tell us which are the subclades?

I can name a few. I know of a result that per 37 STR's is clearly E-Y173822. I know a number of E-Y146086 though they were negative to an SNP at the Y140828 level, yet they are much closer by STR's to Albanians than to that Russian/Finns. There are various E-BY4465 results one can find, both commercially and even in studies.

broder
03-26-2021, 01:36 AM
True, one needs to be careful, yet 4 BigY/NGS results of my branch do determine the stability of our multiple defining STR's. But I should get BigY from those places too in the near future, and I got few of my brotherhood members interested in this.



You can see I'm not from there lol, I was looking at Gllogoc, Глоговце (also Glogovac in Urosevic's book) near Lipljan. Totally different place. There is Jasharovit from the Thaci fis there. Is Ilir Shaqiri also from there? I also see village Polluzha nearby. Many "hardcore" Albanians seem to be from there.

Urosevic said some Hahxi Ali-Bey from Prishtina had a ciftlik there before WW1 (Gllogoc). This is what I'm used to, finding info on some Ottoman figures. Regarding that Ahmed-bey from Sandzak, I found his sons, grandsons, and greatgrandsons, ranging from late 15th to early 17th century, and even his daughter and whom she married and their offspring. None of that was known (though probably very few paid attention to that).

He also said there are some albanised Roma/Gypsy families there that have entered the Berisha, Sop and Krasniq. Wasn't there some I-PH908 or E-A7065 result of Roma origin from Berisha fis?

Get one of those samples commercially tested and then we can talk :)

Don't know much about that Glogovce by Lipjan so can't say much. But yeah, we do have a PH908 Roma/Ashkali that's from Mitrovice and no tribe affiliation. Berisha there are two, one Y97307 and one A7065. The A7065 Berisha are muhaxher from Toplice. He actually matches two other Albanians closely, one from Shkoder and another one that lives in Serbia, but is with origin from Tirane.

Portion of these Gypsies/Ashkali were obviously Albanian judging by their paternal lineages, that took Roma brides. That's what the A7065 fella told me actually when I spoke to him. Apparently when they came to Kosove they intermarried with Roma because of their economical standing. In those days if you ended up marrying a Roma, you were basically kicked out (Leqitė) from the family. Once that happened to them, they basically were landless and had to work as labourers so they bounced around from village to village as Cipci. Hence the tribe discrepancies, they adopted whatever they could to survive and for protection.

Out of like 80 L241 samples at Poreklo I only see one A7065. Wonder if he is any close to these guys. There should be another Albanian from Kosove under A7065, but he has a different haplotype and he has some strong off modals. Hence why I wouldn't classify him as such for now without testing that position. BTW, a portion of those unclassified L241 Serbs should be under PH2180 lol

Regarding singer Ilir Shaqiri, he is from the same village as Hashim Thaēi (Broje).

Huban
03-27-2021, 03:48 AM
Get one of those samples commercially tested and then we can talk :)

A number of these families are already commercially tested, but at the Belgrade Lab with Power Plex. I tried to get one or two deep tested, but that is the problem of this system, you have to send the samples again to Houston or Berlin and they must cooperate. And most don't. Especially among the non-Slavic hg's. It's no wonder that you see only a single tribal Vasojevic there with NGS, and only two tribal Kuci (three are Sandzaklije). As these are far more numerous, one would expect by now at least 4-5 Vasojevici/Kuči NGS.

I did prove without any doubt (through non Y111 STR triple backmutation) the existence of a sub-cluster under A24066 whose oldest individual mutations include backmutations at dys385b and H4. My prediction in this sense is as strong as an SNP confirmation itself. And that these samples with the old H4 value do fit there by any standard by far, far the best (or just about the only fitting almost).

For my new effort I am coming with a different strategy that gives me more leverage in securing deep tests.



Don't know much about that Glogovce by Lipjan so can't say much. But yeah, we do have a PH908 Roma/Ashkali that's from Mitrovice and no tribe affiliation. Berisha there are two, one Y97307 and one A7065. The A7065 Berisha are muhaxher from Toplice. He actually matches two other Albanians closely, one from Shkoder and another one that lives in Serbia, but is with origin from Tirane.

Portion of these Gypsies/Ashkali were obviously Albanian judging by their paternal lineages, that took Roma brides. That's what the A7065 fella told me actually when I spoke to him. Apparently when they came to Kosove they intermarried with Roma because of their economical standing. In those days if you ended up marrying a Roma, you were basically kicked out (Leqitė) from the family. Once that happened to them, they basically were landless and had to work as labourers so they bounced around from village to village as Cipci. Hence the tribe discrepancies, they adopted whatever they could to survive and for protection.

Out of like 80 L241 samples at Poreklo I only see one A7065. Wonder if he is any close to these guys. There should be another Albanian from Kosove under A7065, but he has a different haplotype and he has some strong off modals. Hence why I wouldn't classify him as such for now without testing that position. BTW, a portion of those unclassified L241 Serbs should be under PH2180 lol

It is odd to have already some Roma tested without hg H, as even those from Albania in a study showed dominance of their typical hg's.

A7065+ guy is a Miyak from Macedonia, SNP confirmed though I haven't seen his STR's. I have little doubt these A7065 are generally rather closely affiliated to each other, as that Berisha guy is only 8/67 with the YF02217 Ruthenian at YFull. Looks like a cluster Vlachs/Romanians spread around. Occurs also in a Hungarian who is also close by STR's. Oddly his surname in Hungarian means "Serb".

As Serbs are tested with Power Plex and it lacks 442 defining for A7065 it is hard to say. There is one cluster of Serbs and Montenegrins whose home should be Western Montenegro that hovers between PH1280 and BY6550 in STR affinity. More likely PH1280 and maybe related to one Romanian that is predicted as PH1280. Could be something 3rd as well.

Also another small cluster that was SNP confirmed as L241+ via 23andme (only SNP under V13 they test). L241 is very numerous in Serbs but not well NGS profiled, two YP4806 who represent a cluster that should be local there, and one E-BY5650 downstream of whom are a Hungarian and Bulgarian with NGS.


Regarding singer Ilir Shaqiri, he is from the same village as Hashim Thaēi (Broje).

So the people from Drenica are the equivalent of Western Herzegovinians who have influence in Zagreb, Montenegrins with influence in Belgrade and Sandzaklije with influence in Sarajevo. :)

User1
06-21-2021, 09:48 AM
Y chromosome and MyOrigins from Sandzak (Bosniak DNA project 2021)

https://s20.directupload.net/images/210621/g3n9c8pp.png

[https://s20.directupload.net/images/210621/n9eaj926.png

Kulin
06-22-2021, 01:56 AM
I'm saying it's surprising because I thought Sandžaklije were closest to Montenegrins and Serbians genetically. But these results suggest they are essentially Albanians speaking Bosnian and calling themselves Bosniaks. Which is fine with me, I'm all for the Balkan friendship.

Based on gedmatch kits I've seen, most of them have Montenegrins as their top oracle population, while others have Serbs.

User1
06-22-2021, 02:30 PM
Bosniaks from Sandzak, divided into municipalities!

(405 different surnames from different places)

https://s20.directupload.net/images/210622/ow4y8bxc.png
https://s20.directupload.net/images/210622/ms2h9vk4.png
https://s20.directupload.net/images/210622/92qx9pqw.png
https://s20.directupload.net/images/210622/io6chrx3.png
https://s20.directupload.net/images/210622/ye8i47uu.png
https://s20.directupload.net/images/210622/jmvpcng3.pnghttps://s20.directupload.net/images/210622/y2lldrcn.png
https://s20.directupload.net/images/210622/wigdmmrl.png
https://s20.directupload.net/images/210622/fnot4nnn.png
https://s20.directupload.net/images/210622/7ym4vr66.png
https://s20.directupload.net/images/210622/kjj2luij.png
https://s20.directupload.net/images/210622/vqt4bxfy.png

Bruzmi
06-22-2021, 04:10 PM
I don't know what to make of that. I'm just commenting on what the user1 individual posted. It would be kinda odd if they were closest to Albanians while the non-Muslims from the region are not. But it might have something to do with the Ottoman period and Muslims mixing more with each other therefore they mixed a lot with Albanians.

The Y-DNA % of E-V13, J2b-L283 and R1b are so high mostly because of Albanian migration to Sandzak during the late 17th and 18th century and also migrations from Brda clans of southern Montenegro. A hundred years ago many of these families still spoke Albanian. In the late 19th century, many Muslim Slavs from central and northern Montenegro moved to the area. There were also local Orthodox Serbs who converted to Islam before and after the arrival of these two groups. These three populations nowadays identify as Bosniaks. The differences from municipality to municipality are related to where each population first settled.

What I find surprising is that there is also a small population descended from Ottoman colonists in Sandzak (hg D=0.5%, some C and G-M342 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-M342/) results)

Kulin
06-22-2021, 04:31 PM
The Y-DNA % of E-V13, J2b-L283 and R1b are so high mostly because of Albanian migration to Sandzak during the late 17th and 18th century and also migrations from Brda clans of southern Montenegro. A hundred years ago many of these families still spoke Albanian. In the late 19th century, many Muslim Slavs from central and northern Montenegro moved to the area. There were also local Orthodox Serbs who converted to Islam before and after the arrival of these two groups. These three populations nowadays identify as Bosniaks. The differences from municipality to municipality are related to where each population first settled.

What I find surprising is that there is also a small population descended from Ottoman colonists in Sandzak (hg D=0.5%, some C and G-M342 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-M342/) results)

Although people from the Sandžak are fairly distinct from Bosniaks from Bosnia/Herzegovina, I believe there was also a small-scale migration of Bosniaks after Austro-Hungarian occupation-annexation post 1878. I've seen some very "northern-shifted" kits, though I'm not sure how prevalent these are vs montenegrin-like ones.

Do you have haplogroup data for Montenegrins from various regions of the country just so we can compare btw. Also I believe some orthodox Serbs have also been found to be under "East Eurasian-like" clades, so it could potentially also be some Avar connection.

excine
07-03-2021, 03:43 AM
Although people from the Sandžak are fairly distinct from Bosniaks from Bosnia/Herzegovina, I believe there was also a small-scale migration of Bosniaks after Austro-Hungarian occupation-annexation post 1878. I've seen some very "northern-shifted" kits, though I'm not sure how prevalent these are vs montenegrin-like ones.

Do you have haplogroup data for Montenegrins from various regions of the country just so we can compare btw. Also I believe some orthodox Serbs have also been found to be under "East Eurasian-like" clades, so it could potentially also be some Avar connection.

45415

This map is provided by poreklo.rs

excine
07-03-2021, 03:49 PM
Much of the Y-DNA in Montenegro appears to be more native and predates the Slavic invasion. This provides a few indications that there was a larger presence of Albanian and Vlach pastoralists living in semi-permanent katun-structured households predominantly in more mountainous areas, forming symbiotic relationships with the earliest Slavs and eventually incorporating one's culture and language, this large amalgamation which I believe contributed significantly to the formation and identification of the early Slavs in Montenegro.

User1
07-06-2021, 11:12 AM
Zeta-Sandzak dialect in Sandzak
(Berane, Bijelo Polje, Gusinje, Petnjica, Plav, Rozaje, Novi Pazar, Tutin, Sjenica)
https://s20.directupload.net/images/210706/rxp934ly.png

Eastern Herzegovinian dialect in Sandzak
(Pljevlja, Prijepolje, Priboj, Nova Varos)
https://s20.directupload.net/images/210706/aw3bpxkq.png

Bihor
07-06-2021, 03:04 PM
First of all we should define Sandzak. In modern times, we refer to it as one region because of historical and geopolitical issues but in terms of population movements, it is divided into two regions: a southern Sandzak (Gusinje, Plav, Tutin, Rozhaje, Novi Pazar) populated much more by an Albanian substratum than a Slavic one and a northern Sandzak (Prijepolje, Priboj, Pljevlja, Bijelo Polje) populated much more by a Slavic substratum than an Albanian one. The two regions "meet" in the Sjenica-Petnjica line. In turn, that meant that migrations from Montenegro tended to go to southern Sandzak if the population spoke Albanian and to northern Sandzak if the population spoke Serbo-Croatian. It also meant that people from Herzegovina that migrated there, tended to settle in the north and people from Albanian regions tended to settle in the south.

We can pretty much map nowadays the route of every surname of the Sandzak and explain why it is E-V13, J2b, I2 etc. An example I like are the https://bosnjackidnk.com/porijeklo-porodice-skenderovic-iz-trpezi/ Skenderovići from Petnjica (J2b-L283>Z597, typical of Albanian Malėsor tribes). This is a brotherhood from Brskut, current Bratonozići, which then was part of Bukumiri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri) . These people migrated as Orthodox in Petnjica (18th century) and became Muslim under influence from the Shabanagaj, a brotherhood from Gruemiri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruemiri), who had converted to Islam about 50 years earlier (they were Catholics).

how do you know that about Shabanagaj and the Skenderovic's? Im from this Family, In our family tradition it is said that we are descended from Bratonozic.
It has always been strange to me that not long ago our ancestors wore the clothes of the regions from northern Albania.
Bratonozic could be correct in terms of the region, but not the ancestry. One of our family was tested and the haplogroup had a match with the Abazi (Islamized?) family from Pukė.
I would be very grateful if someone knew more. Maybe someone also knows something about the Abazi's from Pukė. Many of them also live in Shkodra. thanks for any information.

Bruzmi
07-06-2021, 07:59 PM
how do you know that about Shabanagaj and the Skenderovic's? Im from this Family, In our family tradition it is said that we are descended from Bratonozic.
It has always been strange to me that not long ago our ancestors wore the clothes of the regions from northern Albania.
Bratonozic could be correct in terms of the region, but not the ancestry. One of our family was tested and the haplogroup had a match with the Abazi (Islamized?) family from Pukė.
I would be very grateful if someone knew more. Maybe someone also knows something about the Abazi's from Pukė. Many of them also live in Shkodra. thanks for any information.



Bratonozic could be correct in terms of the region, but not the ancestry.

Yes, it's exactly what I mean by "current Bratonozići" when I referred to the region. The connection to Shabanagaj referred to the Bukumiri (also from the same area as the ancestor of the Skenderovici), not the Skenderovici which I think moved in a different route.

The Skenderovici went to Petnjica from Rozaje, Kalace. You have the same ancestor as the Ramdedovići (Ram Dedov, Skender's brother), right?

If you send me more information, I can search about it so we can continue our discussion via dm, if you want to.

Bihor
07-06-2021, 11:15 PM
If you send me more information, I can search about it so we can continue our discussion via dm, if you want to.

Can you please send me your email address via DM. I don't have enough posts in this forum yet and unfortunately I cant send DMs. I will then contact you privat.
Thanks

Bihor
07-23-2021, 08:21 AM
Thank you for your DM. Unfortunately I can't answer you via DM because I don't have ten posts yet. You can contact me on this mail here [email protected] .

Bihor
07-23-2021, 11:01 AM
https://s20.directupload.net/images/210723/9vevwup7.png
Haplogroups from the upper Bihor Area.The one posted above is outdated, some families were added. I got it from "Bihorski DNK Projekat" on Facebook and they just posted it a few days ago.


Bihor is a geographical region in northeastern Montenegro. The region is within three municipalities: Berane, Bijelo Polje and Petnjica. It was named after Bihor, a former medieval town that was near Bijelo Polje. The region mainly consists of ethnic Bosniaks.

There are 73 surnames of villagers found in Upper Bihor:

Adrović
Agović
Alibašić
Babić
Babačić
Batilović
Bibuljica
Bošnjak
Brakočević
Cikotić
Ćeman
Ćorović
Čivović
Čilović
Čolović
Duraković
Đukić
Đurašković
Garčević
Goljo
Hajdarpašić
Halilović
Hodžić
Huremović
Idrizović
Ivezić
Javorovac
Kalić
Kočan
Korać
Klica
Kolić
Kožar
Kršić
Hećo
Herović
Latić
Levaić
Ličina
Ligonja
Luković
Mehović
Muhović
Muratović
Murić
Mirković
Novalić
Osmanović
Palamar
Pačariz
Petrović
Pramenko
Prentić
Pljakić
Radošević
Ramdedović
Ramčilović
Račić
Rastoder
Rujović
Rugovac
Sijarić
Sadiković
Sehratlić
Smailović
Skenderović
Šabotić
Škrijelj
Taraniš
Tiganj
Vukajlović
Vujošević
Zverotić

A few more personal words and estimates from me,
The Islamized Novalics and Lukovics have not been included. The orthodox Novalic and Lukovics have already been tested both i2a, the islamized ones are logically descended from the orthodox ones, so they will be added in the near future. There are also other surnames that have not been tested that see other I2a surnames as their cousins. Surnames like Cilovic or Civovic also sound a lot like Serbian ancestry. Let's see what comes out. I am sure that the i2a value will increase. The high G2A value is certainly surprising but it will certainly go down because about 40% of the bihor is still to be tested. Most of the not tested families like the Rujovic`s, Prentic`s, Kalic`s and Kolic`s are supposed to be descended from the Kuci Tribe according to literature. We will see if this is true, but it would be strange if the Mehovic`s should remain the only Kuci`s in the entire Bihor. The neighboring Rozaje is full with Islamized Kuci`s, so probably it will not remain only with the Mehovic`s in the Bihor. The Rugovac family is said to be descended from Klimenta who came from Rugova to the Bihor. Sounds realistic because also in the Pester some Klimentas came from the Rugova area. The Pljakic`s probably have the same ancestry as the Pljakic from Pester. They would also be Klimenta`s. The Garcevic are islamized Vasojevic`s, there is actually only the test missing but it is 100% sure. There are also a few houses of Islamized Racic who are also 100% descended from the Vasojevics, but they are so few that they will probably not be tested. The Babic family could possibly also be descended from the Vasojevics. So the haplogroup E will get some percentages and overtake G2A. The Bibuljica family considers itself related to the Korac and Palamar both tested for R1a-Z283, so the Bibuljica`s will pretty much join them. So the Bihor is a bit more special than the surrounding areas with the higher i2a, the some families with G2a and the few islamized Vasojevic`s. As someone who comes from the region, I would actually have rather guessed a picture like in Rozaje with predominantly Islamized Kuci`s and Klimenta`s. I am also surprised.

Kelmendasi
07-23-2021, 12:19 PM
A number of the Albanians that settled in Sandžak (especially around Tutin, but also in Bihor) arrived via the region of Rugova in western Kosovo. The Škrijelj (Albanian: Shkreli) who settled in Bihor, especially in the Petnjica Municipality (e.g., Javarova, Dašča Rijeka, Murovac), arrived from the settlement of Shkrel to the east of Boga in Rugova and are of the same stock as the brotherhoods that settled in the area of Tutin (e.g., Leskova, Boroštica, Brniševo, Namga etc). There are also some who have stated that there was another wave of Shkreli coming directly from their tribal territory in Malėsia. The Smailovići who also settled in Delimeđe, Tutin, also arrived from Rugova and seem to have been a fis that joined the Shkreli of the region since they belong to E-PH2180 rather than J2b-CTS8786.

As for the Kelmendi, as you stated above, there are brotherhoods in regions such as the Pešter plateau that arrived from Rugova. For example, in Duga Poljana the Ljajići (Albanian: Lajēi) arrived from Rugova during the eighteenth century and were initially Albanian-speaking and Catholic Christian. They belong to the larger Lajēi brotherhood of Rugova that is spread across the region and originally came from the tribal territory of Kelmend in Malėsi (possibly Vukėl). So it is not surprising that brotherhoods such as the Rugovac also arrived from Rugova. Of course there are brotherhoods in Bihor that also claim to have arrived directly from Kelmendi. The Agovići of Petnjica (Vrbica, Bare, Orahovo) have tradition of having arrived from Selca in Kelmend and the Murići are clearly connected to the Muriqi of Kelmend.

Bihor
07-23-2021, 01:09 PM
the Murići are clearly connected to the Muriqi of Kelmend.

The Bihor tribe (R1b>BY611>Y32147>Y82919) is a Brother branch of the Muric`s /Muriqi`s.The Agovic`s from the Bihor also belong to this Tribe. The Agovic`s from Rozaje are Klimentas from Selca. If the Muric's have something to do with the Klimentas then the people of the Bihor tribe have also something to do with them. I have heard so far only about the connection to the Thaci`s. But I am not an expert and I am not so long in the topic inside but it sounds interesting what you say. So the families Rugovac and Pljakic from the Bihor have quite certainly Klimenta ancestors, there is just missing the test that then finally confirms this. There is no doubt that the Bihor tribe was of Albanian origin. I have enough pictures at home where my ancestors wear Malisoren costumes. And also on the Internet there are enough pictures.

Here is a link regarding the Agovic Family from Bihor: https://bosnjackidnk.com/porijeklo-porodice-agovic-iz-bara-kod-petnjice/

https://forum.agovic.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Bihorci-na-putu.jpg
https://www.avlija.me/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Picture51-602x446.png
https://sandzakpress.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/5.-EKSKLUZIVNA-FOTOGRAFIJA.-Milicija-mula-Osmana-Hrastodera-komandanta-odbrane-Gornjeg-Bihora-od-%C4%8Detnika-1941-45.jpg
The militia of Osman Mula Rastoder in the Second World War defending the upper Bihor against the Cetniks. The Rastoder`s also belong to the Bihortribe.

https://sandzakpress.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/11.-Familija-Kadrije-Javorovca-slikana-1953.-u-Beranama.-Sa-lijeva-sjedi-otac-Alija-1868-1968-amid%C5%BEa-Avdo-1865-1963-stoje-brat-od-amid%C5%BEe-Delija-snaha-od-amid%C5%BEe-D%C5%BEemaila-i-Kadrija-1918.jpg

The Family Javorovac from Vrševo, Petnjica(Bihor). Very likely they are descended from the Skreli`s. Have also not yet been tested.

Kelmendasi
07-23-2021, 01:44 PM
The Bihor tribe (R1b>BY611>Y32147>Y82919) is a Brother branch of the Muric`s /Muriqi`s.The Agovic`s from the Bihor also belong to this Tribe. The Agovic`s from Rozaje are Klimentas from Selca. If the Muric's have something to do with the Klimentas then the people of the Bihor tribe have also something to do with them. I have heard so far only about the connection to the Thaci`s. But I am not an expert and I am not so long in the topic inside but it sounds interesting what you say. So the families Rugovac and Pljakic from the Bihor have quite certainly Klimenta ancestors, there is just missing the test that then finally confirms this. There is no doubt that the Bihor tribe was of Albanian origin. I have enough pictures at home where my ancestors wear Malisoren costumes. And also on the Internet there are enough pictures.

Here is a link regarding the Agovic Family from Bihor: https://bosnjackidnk.com/porijeklo-porodice-agovic-iz-bara-kod-petnjice/

https://forum.agovic.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Bihorci-na-putu.jpg
https://www.avlija.me/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Picture51-602x446.png
https://sandzakpress.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/5.-EKSKLUZIVNA-FOTOGRAFIJA.-Milicija-mula-Osmana-Hrastodera-komandanta-odbrane-Gornjeg-Bihora-od-%C4%8Detnika-1941-45.jpg
The militia of Osman Mula Rastoder in the Second World War defending the upper Bihor against the Cetniks. The Rastoder`s also belong to the Bihortribe.

https://sandzakpress.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/11.-Familija-Kadrije-Javorovca-slikana-1953.-u-Beranama.-Sa-lijeva-sjedi-otac-Alija-1868-1968-amid%C5%BEa-Avdo-1865-1963-stoje-brat-od-amid%C5%BEe-Delija-snaha-od-amid%C5%BEe-D%C5%BEemaila-i-Kadrija-1918.jpg

The Family Javorovac from Vrševo, Petnjica(Bihor). Very likely they are descended from the Skreli`s. Have also not yet been tested.
The R1b-Y82919>BY53973 cluster that reaches high frequencies in Bihor includes brotherhoods and families which do not claim common paternal origin with one another which is interesting. For example the Rastoder or Hrastoder came from Kuči/Kuēi and the Durakovići from the Bukmiri of Bratonožići. There is also an Albanian from the area of Debar (Albanian: Dibėr / Dibra e Madhe) in North Macedonia who forms a cluster under Y82919. To me it also seems certain that these lineages were of Albanian origin originating from Malėsia (including the highlands of eastern Montenegro).

The vast majority of the Muriqi or Murići who have tested come under R1b-Y63957. Both Y63957 and Y82919 are clusters under Y32147 and so their TMRCA is ~1,300 ybp, sometime during the Early Middle Ages (eighth century CE possibly). The connection with some brotherhoods of the Thaēi (Elshani) is not all that direct, both simply share Y133365 with a TMRCA of ~900 ybp. The Muriqi are without a doubt a brotherhood originally stemming from Kelmendi. In 1497 the katund or pastoral community of Muriq is recorded as having settled in the village of Ishpaja in Kelmend, likely establishing the settlement or quarter of Muriq which in modern times comes under Vukėl. The branches that then settled in Sandžak still maintained and acknowledged their origins from Kelmendi.

Bihor
07-23-2021, 02:11 PM
The R1b-Y82919>BY53973 cluster that reaches high frequencies in Bihor includes brotherhoods and families which do not claim common paternal origin with one another which is interesting. For example the Rastoder or Hrastoder came from Kuči/Kuēi and the Durakovići from the Bukmiri of Bratonožići. There is also an Albanian from the area of Debar (Albanian: Dibėr / Dibra e Madhe) in North Macedonia who forms a cluster under Y82919. To me it also seems certain that these lineages were of Albanian origin originating from Malėsia (including the highlands of eastern Montenegro).

The vast majority of the Muriqi or Murići who have tested come under R1b-Y63957. Both Y63957 and Y82919 are clusters under Y32147 and so their TMRCA is ~1,300 ybp, sometime during the Early Middle Ages (eighth century CE possibly). The connection with some brotherhoods of the Thaēi (Elshani) is not all that direct, both simply share Y133365 with a TMRCA of ~900 ybp. The Muriqi are without a doubt a brotherhood originally stemming from Kelmendi. In 1497 the katund or pastoral community of Muriq is recorded as having settled in the village of Ishpaja in Kelmend, likely establishing the settlement or quarter of Muriq which in modern times comes under Vukėl. The branches that then settled in Sandžak still maintained and acknowledged their origins from Kelmendi.

It could be that the traditions about the Rastoder`s and Durakovic`s are simply wrong. As far as I know, they have the same paternal origin.I sometimes have the feeling that the author Lutovac(Which is responsible for many of these stories) has written a lot of nonsense to give the Bosniaks in the Sandzak all a "Serbian" background. I have no problem with a Serbian background, don't misunderstand.
But it is a bit noticeable that there was also a political agenda. The clear majority of his ancestry theories are wrong. Many from our area know everything about their family only from these "books". It is possible that many were ashamed to be Slavicized or that the Bosniak identity simply brought more advantages and the other one was dropped. Some from Pester and Rozaje report that they came to Sandzak as Catholic Albanians (some certainly as Orthodox) and found Bosniaks there. In time, they married Bosniak women and adopted Islam in order to be accepted. In the old patriarchal households, the mother was responsible for the education of the children, and since the mother was only a Serbian speaker, this language was also taught to the children. In this way, the Albanian identity was lost more and more. School, marketplaces (pazar) and religious places were anyway in the language of the natives. As a migrant you always have to adapt and accept new things from the locals, that is normal. Where do you look up these things like TCMRA? On which page? My family also has the tradition that we descend from the Bukumiri of Bratonozici. Here is a link of my family: https://bosnjackidnk.com/porijeklo-porodice-skenderovic-iz-trpezi/

I am already a few months in search of "relatives", but was not found except for the Abazi Family in Puke.

J Man
07-23-2021, 06:51 PM
It could be that the traditions about the Rastoder`s and Durakovic`s are simply wrong. As far as I know, they have the same paternal origin.I sometimes have the feeling that the author Lutovac(Which is responsible for many of these stories) has written a lot of nonsense to give the Bosniaks in the Sandzak all a "Serbian" background. I have no problem with a Serbian background, don't misunderstand.
But it is a bit noticeable that there was also a political agenda. The clear majority of his ancestry theories are wrong. Many from our area know everything about their family only from these "books". It is possible that many were ashamed to be Slavicized or that the Bosniak identity simply brought more advantages and the other one was dropped. Some from Pester and Rozaje report that they came to Sandzak as Catholic Albanians (some certainly as Orthodox) and found Bosniaks there. In time, they married Bosniak women and adopted Islam in order to be accepted. In the old patriarchal households, the mother was responsible for the education of the children, and since the mother was only a Serbian speaker, this language was also taught to the children. In this way, the Albanian identity was lost more and more. School, marketplaces (pazar) and religious places were anyway in the language of the natives. As a migrant you always have to adapt and accept new things from the locals, that is normal. Where do you look up these things like TCMRA? On which page? My family also has the tradition that we descend from the Bukumiri of Bratonozici. Here is a link of my family: https://bosnjackidnk.com/porijeklo-porodice-skenderovic-iz-trpezi/

I am already a few months in search of "relatives", but was not found except for the Abazi Family in Puke.

I'm just learning now about the people of Bihor. Was the Slavic speaking Muslim population of Bihor divided into bratstva (patrilineal clans) and plemena (tribes) like the other (Christian) people of Montenegro?

User1
07-23-2021, 11:20 PM
https://s20.directupload.net/images/210723/9vevwup7.png
Haplogroups from the upper Bihor Area.The one posted above is outdated, some families were added. I got it from "Bihorski DNK Projekat" on Facebook and they just posted it a few days ago.


Bihor is a geographical region in northeastern Montenegro. The region is within three municipalities: Berane, Bijelo Polje and Petnjica. It was named after Bihor, a former medieval town that was near Bijelo Polje. The region mainly consists of ethnic Bosniaks.

There are 73 surnames of villagers found in Upper Bihor:

Adrović
Agović
Alibašić
Babić
Babačić
Batilović
Bibuljica
Bošnjak
Brakočević
Cikotić
Ćeman
Ćorović
Čivović
Čilović
Čolović
Duraković
Đukić
Đurašković
Garčević
Goljo
Hajdarpašić
Halilović
Hodžić
Huremović
Idrizović
Ivezić
Javorovac
Kalić
Kočan
Korać
Klica
Kolić
Kožar
Kršić
Hećo
Herović
Latić
Levaić
Ličina
Ligonja
Luković
Mehović
Muhović
Muratović
Murić
Mirković
Novalić
Osmanović
Palamar
Pačariz
Petrović
Pramenko
Prentić
Pljakić
Radošević
Ramdedović
Ramčilović
Račić
Rastoder
Rujović
Rugovac
Sijarić
Sadiković
Sehratlić
Smailović
Skenderović
Šabotić
Škrijelj
Taraniš
Tiganj
Vukajlović
Vujošević
Zverotić

A few more personal words and estimates from me,
The Islamized Novalics and Lukovics have not been included. The orthodox Novalic and Lukovics have already been tested both i2a, the islamized ones are logically descended from the orthodox ones, so they will be added in the near future. There are also other surnames that have not been tested that see other I2a surnames as their cousins. Surnames like Cilovic or Civovic also sound a lot like Serbian ancestry. Let's see what comes out. I am sure that the i2a value will increase. The high G2A value is certainly surprising but it will certainly go down because about 40% of the bihor is still to be tested. Most of the not tested families like the Rujovic`s, Prentic`s, Kalic`s and Kolic`s are supposed to be descended from the Kuci Tribe according to literature. We will see if this is true, but it would be strange if the Mehovic`s should remain the only Kuci`s in the entire Bihor. The neighboring Rozaje is full with Islamized Kuci`s, so probably it will not remain only with the Mehovic`s in the Bihor. The Rugovac family is said to be descended from Klimenta who came from Rugova to the Bihor. Sounds realistic because also in the Pester some Klimentas came from the Rugova area. The Pljakic`s probably have the same ancestry as the Pljakic from Pester. They would also be Klimenta`s. The Garcevic are islamized Vasojevic`s, there is actually only the test missing but it is 100% sure. There are also a few houses of Islamized Racic who are also 100% descended from the Vasojevics, but they are so few that they will probably not be tested. The Babic family could possibly also be descended from the Vasojevics. So the haplogroup E will get some percentages and overtake G2A. The Bibuljica family considers itself related to the Korac and Palamar both tested for R1a-Z283, so the Bibuljica`s will pretty much join them. So the Bihor is a bit more special than the surrounding areas with the higher i2a, the some families with G2a and the few islamized Vasojevic`s. As someone who comes from the region, I would actually have rather guessed a picture like in Rozaje with predominantly Islamized Kuci`s and Klimenta`s. I am also surprised.

You have to distinguish the lower Bihor (Bijelo Polje) from the upper Bihor (Petnjica), the "Bihorski DNK Projekat" is only about the Upper Bihor!

The Bosniak family names in Upper Bihor are!

Name - Haplogroup - Houses in 1913 in Upper Bihor.

Adrović - G2a - 88 houses.
Agović - R1b - 50 houses.
Babić - not tested - 1 house.
Babačić - I2a1 - 12 houses.
Batilović - not tested - 2 houses.
Bošnjak - not tested - 0.
Cikotić - I2a1 - 19 houses.
Ćeman - R1b - 13 houses.
Čivović - not tested, 6 houses.
Čilović - not tested - 0.
Duraković - R1b - 15 houses.
Đukić - E-V13 - 0.
Goljo - G2a - 1 house.
Hajdarpašić - R1b and G2a - 27 houses.
Halilović - R1a - 1 house.
Hodžić - R1b - 18 houses.
Huremović - I2a1 - 15 houses.
Javorovac - not tested, but are J2b Škrijelj like Škrijelji from Murovac, Javorova, etc. - 6 houses
Kočan - I2a1 - 37 houses
Korać - R1a - 20 houses.
Klica - R1b - 4 houses
Kožar - R1b - 22 houses
Kršić - R1b - 4 houses.
Latić - not tested - 12 houses.
Ličina - R1b - 64 houses.
Ligonja - not tested, 2 houses.
Luković - not tested - 6 houses.
Mehović - E-V13 - 25 houses.
Muhović - R1b - 15 houses.
Muratović - R1b - 44 houses.
Novalić - I2a1 - 5 houses.
Osmanović - I2a1 - 12 houses.
Palamar - R1a - 3 houses.
Pramenko - R1b - 3 houses.
Prentić - not tested - 7 houses.
Ramdedović - J2b -11 houses.
Ramčilović - E-V13 - 13 houses.
Rastoder - R1b - 49 houses.
Rujović - not tested - 10 houses.
Sehratlić - not tested - 3 houses.
Skenderović - J2b - 35 houses.
Šabotić - G2a - 63 houses.
Škrijelj - J2b - 70 houses.
Taraniš - I2a1 - 7 houses.
Tiganj - I2a1 - 6 houses.
Zverotić - G2a - 7 houses.

The others are from lower Bihor, such as:
Bibuljica - R1a are tested
Ćorović - R1a and G2a
Pačariz - R1b
Sijarić - J2a1 and R1a
Herović - I1
Etc.
Or Garčević from Polica.

As you can see, the upper Bihor has been tested very well, of 826 houses, only 55 "houses" are not tested, not even 7% of the "houses" from 1913 are still to be tested.
There won't be any big surprises in Upper Bihor(Petnjica).

In Upper Bihor according to the 1913 census:
R1b is 40%.
G2a is 22%
J2b is 15%.
I2a1 is 15%
E-V13 5%.
R1a is 3%.

The lower Bihor is completely different as far as the haplogroups are concerned

XXD
07-24-2021, 12:04 AM
Thank you all for these posts! Most of my closest FTDNA matches (they only match me at 67, no matches at 111) belong to the families you mention: Agovic, Ličina, Rastoder, with the exception of one from Blliēė, Dibėr (Hoxha surname). Although I have high STR distance (=6) with these individuals, it seems to me quite reasonable to assume that my ancestor came from the Sandžak.

Although Kelmendasi, you suggest that at least the Agovic family probably originates from Kelmendi?
Waiting for my WGS to submit on Y-full...

Bihor
07-24-2021, 08:49 AM
You have to distinguish the lower Bihor (Bijelo Polje) from the upper Bihor (Petnjica), the "Bihorski DNK Projekat" is only about the Upper Bihor!

The Bosniak family names in Upper Bihor are!

Name - Haplogroup - Houses in 1913 in Upper Bihor.

Adrović - G2a - 88 houses.
Agović - R1b - 50 houses.
Babić - not tested - 1 house.
Babačić - I2a1 - 12 houses.
Batilović - not tested - 2 houses.
Bošnjak - not tested - 0.
Cikotić - I2a1 - 19 houses.
Ćeman - R1b - 13 houses.
Čivović - not tested, 6 houses.
Čilović - not tested - 0.
Duraković - R1b - 15 houses.
Đukić - E-V13 - 0.
Goljo - G2a - 1 house.
Hajdarpašić - R1b and G2a - 27 houses.
Halilović - R1a - 1 house.
Hodžić - R1b - 18 houses.
Huremović - I2a1 - 15 houses.
Javorovac - not tested, but are J2b Škrijelj like Škrijelji from Murovac, Javorova, etc. - 6 houses
Kočan - I2a1 - 37 houses
Korać - R1a - 20 houses.
Klica - R1b - 4 houses
Kožar - R1b - 22 houses
Kršić - R1b - 4 houses.
Latić - not tested - 12 houses.
Ličina - R1b - 64 houses.
Ligonja - not tested, 2 houses.
Luković - not tested - 6 houses.
Mehović - E-V13 - 25 houses.
Muhović - R1b - 15 houses.
Muratović - R1b - 44 houses.
Novalić - I2a1 - 5 houses.
Osmanović - I2a1 - 12 houses.
Palamar - R1a - 3 houses.
Pramenko - R1b - 3 houses.
Prentić - not tested - 7 houses.
Ramdedović - J2b -11 houses.
Ramčilović - E-V13 - 13 houses.
Rastoder - R1b - 49 houses.
Rujović - not tested - 10 houses.
Sehratlić - not tested - 3 houses.
Skenderović - J2b - 35 houses.
Šabotić - G2a - 63 houses.
Škrijelj - J2b - 70 houses.
Taraniš - I2a1 - 7 houses.
Tiganj - I2a1 - 6 houses.
Zverotić - G2a - 7 houses.

The others are from lower Bihor, such as:
Bibuljica - R1a are tested
Ćorović - R1a and G2a
Pačariz - R1b
Sijarić - J2a1 and R1a
Herović - I1
Etc.
Or Garčević from Polica.

As you can see, the upper Bihor has been tested very well, of 826 houses, only 55 "houses" are not tested, not even 7% of the "houses" from 1913 are still to be tested.
There won't be any big surprises in Upper Bihor(Petnjica).

In Upper Bihor according to the 1913 census:
R1b is 40%.
G2a is 22%
J2b is 15%.
I2a1 is 15%
E-V13 5%.
R1a is 3%.

The lower Bihor is completely different as far as the haplogroups are concerned

That's not entirely true, they didn't test 826 houses. This graph also shows only the upper Bihor. But what I have checked only now, they have counted some surnames several times, for example, the Kocan`s in Godocelje and the Kocan`s in Poroce. Both had the same ancestry. Now you can argue about whether this duplicates the statistics, on the other hand I can imagine that the more we test the big surnames, the more surprises will come. I could imagine that such a huge family like the Adrovic`s do not have only one haplogroup - this is my guess. At the Skenderovic`s never 35 houses were tested. you can check for yourself on their Facebook page. If it is a mistake, you can write to them. According to Bihorski DNK Projekat, 60 people have been tested in the upper Bihor so far.What you said with the surnames from the lower Bihor is true, this I did not differentiate.

Look here, there is a family from Sjenica which, according to their traditions, is said to be descended from the Hadrovics. However, they do not belong to the haplogroup G2a but to the Bihor claster of r1b. Now there are two theories, their family history is wrong or the Adrovics divide in several haplogroups (which is my theory). So we need to test more anyway.

https://bosnjackidnk.com/porijeklo-porodice-gasanin-iz-cipalja-kod-sjenice/

Among us Skenderovic there are also the different subdivisions of the forefathers for example the Muratovici(descend from Murat, but their surname is Skenderovic), the Jahovici, Sacirovici etc.. Some of them are brothers, others have a different father, which could mean a different ancestry. I know, for example, according to many family histories that the Skenderovic's descended from Murat are not the same as those of Jaho. They share the same surname, so they see each other as "cousins" and do not intermarry but the ancestry is not the same. That is why we need more tests in Bihor, because there are such things in many families.The Hajdarpasic`s are already divided into 2 haplogroups. Why should it not be the same with the Adrovics or Skenderovics? In Luxembourg alone live over 800 people with the surname Adrovic :D Believe me there are still some Bratstva divided into several haplogroups.With the Adrovic`s there was always this story that they descend from the islamized Andro Đurašković. My grandmother comes from the Adrovic's and before I have even dealt with such topics, I have already heard such things. So the Adrovics themselves claimed that they descended from the Đurašković. Who knows, maybe there really was an Andro Đurašković, but maybe his descendants are only a small part of today's Adrovic. Is now only an example, I do not care whether they descend from the Đuraškovićs or not, but just want to show you 1 or 2 tested Adrovic`s do not say much. Maybe the G2a were even the smaller part that was tested, maybe they all descended from that - we will only know if we test more.
In the Hajdarpasics from Vrsevo only two random people were tested and two haplogroups came out. Crazy, isn't it? In Trpezi I know of Muric's who changed their last name to Durakovic or something else. I am not sure in which surname exactly, but this has happened. I would have to ask my father. But this was much more common than you think, so many big bratstva will have different haplogroups.
Here the Post from their Facebook Page:

U Gornjem Bihoru do sada je testirano ukupno 36 plemena i 60 osoba. Testirano je preko 50% plemena. Najzastupljenija Haplogrupa je R1b, 36%. Ovoj haplogrupi pripadaju plemena: Ličine, Kožari, Rastoderi, Kršići, Agovići, Muratovići, Hodžići, Durakovići, Hajdarpašići, Pramenkovići, Muhovići, Ćemani i Klica. Ova plemena dijele zajedničkog pretka u bližoj i daljoj prošlosti.

https://www.facebook.com/licinafehim/posts/356034692589993

Kelmendasi
07-24-2021, 09:55 AM
Thank you all for these posts! Most of my closest FTDNA matches (they only match me at 67, no matches at 111) belong to the families you mention: Agovic, Ličina, Rastoder, with the exception of one from Blliēė, Dibėr (Hoxha surname). Although I have high STR distance (=6) with these individuals, it seems to me quite reasonable to assume that my ancestor came from the Sandžak.

Although Kelmendasi, you suggest that at least the Agovic family probably originates from Kelmendi?
Waiting for my WGS to submit on Y-full...
It should be kept in mind that this lineage ultimately very likely came from Malėsia which would also include the Albanian-speaking territories of eastern Montenegro. So unless your common ancestor with these matches from Sandžak is extremely recent, I personally would not suggest a direct origin or arrival from Sandžak.

Regarding the Agovići, I confused the ones from Rožaje (Albanian: Rozhajė) with the ones from Petnjica who are R1b-Y82919>BY53973. The Agovići of Rožaja can directly trace back their paternal ancestry to the village of Selca of Kelmend and have tested as E-BY105970 which confirms their genealogy and tradition. As for the Agovići of Petnjica, there is not much information. There are some who suggest an origin from northern Albania though I could not find anything more specific.

Bihor
07-24-2021, 10:07 AM
It should be kept in mind that this lineage ultimately very likely came from Malėsia which would also include the Albanian-speaking territories of eastern Montenegro. So unless your common ancestor with these matches from Sandžak is extremely recent, I personally would not suggest a direct origin or arrival from Sandžak.

Regarding the Agovići, I confused the ones from Rožaje (Albanian: Rozhajė) with the ones from Petnjica who are R1b-Y82919>BY53973. The Agovići of Rožaja can directly trace back their paternal ancestry to the village of Selca of Kelmend and have tested as E-BY105970 which confirms their genealogy and tradition. As for the Agovići of Petnjica, there is not much information. There are some who suggest an origin from northern Albania though I could not find anything more specific.

Maybe you have to test the Agovic`s in Petnjica more and then the haplogroup of the ones in Rozaje comes out :D

The big Bratstva will have several haplogroups, that`s for sure. I think I explained in detail in the post above.

User1
07-24-2021, 11:05 AM
That's not entirely true, they didn't test 826 houses. This graph also shows only the upper Bihor. But what I have checked only now, they have counted some surnames several times, for example, the Kocan`s in Godocelje and the Kocan`s in Poroce. Both had the same ancestry. Now you can argue about whether this duplicates the statistics, on the other hand I can imagine that the more we test the big surnames, the more surprises will come. I could imagine that such a huge family like the Adrovic`s do not have only one haplogroup - this is my guess. At the Skenderovic`s never 35 houses were tested. you can check for yourself on their Facebook page. If it is a mistake, you can write to them. According to Bihorski DNK Projekat, 60 people have been tested in the upper Bihor so far.What you said with the surnames from the lower Bihor is true, this I did not differentiate.

Look here, there is a family from Sjenica which, according to their traditions, is said to be descended from the Hadrovics. However, they do not belong to the haplogroup G2a but to the Bihor claster of r1b. Now there are two theories, their family history is wrong or the Adrovics divide in several haplogroups (which is my theory). So we need to test more anyway.

https://bosnjackidnk.com/porijeklo-porodice-gasanin-iz-cipalja-kod-sjenice/

Among us Skenderovic there are also the different subdivisions of the forefathers for example the Muratovici(descend from Murat, but their surname is Skenderovic), the Jahovici, Sacirovici etc.. Some of them are brothers, others have a different father, which could mean a different ancestry. I know, for example, according to many family histories that the Skenderovic's descended from Murat are not the same as those of Jaho. They share the same surname, so they see each other as "cousins" and do not intermarry but the ancestry is not the same. That is why we need more tests in Bihor, because there are such things in many families.The Hajdarpasic`s are already divided into 2 haplogroups. Why should it not be the same with the Adrovics or Skenderovics? In Luxembourg alone live over 800 people with the surname Adrovic :D Believe me there are still some Bratstva divided into several haplogroups.With the Adrovic`s there was always this story that they descend from the islamized Andro Đurašković. My grandmother comes from the Adrovic's and before I have even dealt with such topics, I have already heard such things. So the Adrovics themselves claimed that they descended from the Đurašković. Who knows, maybe there really was an Andro Đurašković, but maybe his descendants are only a small part of today's Adrovic. Is now only an example, I do not care whether they descend from the Đuraškovićs or not, but just want to show you 1 or 2 tested Adrovic`s do not say much. Maybe the G2a were even the smaller part that was tested, maybe they all descended from that - we will only know if we test more.
In the Hajdarpasics from Vrsevo only two random people were tested and two haplogroups came out. Crazy, isn't it? In Trpezi I know of Muric's who changed their last name to Durakovic or something else. I am not sure in which surname exactly, but this has happened. I would have to ask my father. But this was much more common than you think, so many big bratstva will have different haplogroups.
Here the Post from their Facebook Page:

U Gornjem Bihoru do sada je testirano ukupno 36 plemena i 60 osoba. Testirano je preko 50% plemena. Najzastupljenija Haplogrupa je R1b, 36%. Ovoj haplogrupi pripadaju plemena: Ličine, Kožari, Rastoderi, Kršići, Agovići, Muratovići, Hodžići, Durakovići, Hajdarpašići, Pramenkovići, Muhovići, Ćemani i Klica. Ova plemena dijele zajedničkog pretka u bližoj i daljoj prošlosti.

https://www.facebook.com/licinafehim/posts/356034692589993

I think you didn't understand me, of course there weren't 35 houses of Skenderovic who did the test, but one test counts for the whole family, except several different haplogroups were found, as long as there is only one haplogroup, it counts for the whole family!

There are clearly some wrong traditions, Gašanin from Sjenice say they come from Savin Bor from the Hadrović but it is more likely that they come from Rastoder from Bor!

The statistics I have listed are many times more accurate than statistics alone on the number of tested persons, we can't say 1 House Halilovic - R1a is the same like 88 houses Hadrovic - G2a in Upper Bihor.

User1
07-24-2021, 11:16 AM
Maybe you have to test the Agovic`s in Petnjica more and then the haplogroup of the ones in Rozaje comes out :D

The big Bratstva will have several haplogroups, that`s for sure. I think I explained in detail in the post above.

There are 6 Agović from different vilages in Upper Bihor who did a test and all are R1b-Z2705.

Agović from Rožaje have the tradition that they come from Selce-Kelmendi, Agović from Bihor the tradition that they come from Plav and further they are from a Catholic from Northern Albania without any reference to a tribe (there are of course different interpretations based on history and surname in the last decades of which tribe they could be)

Bihor
07-24-2021, 11:34 AM
There are 6 Agović from different vilages in Upper Bihor who did a test and all are R1b-Z2705.

Agović from Rožaje have the tradition that they come from Selce-Kelmendi, Agović from Bihor the tradition that they come from Plav and further they are from a Catholic from Northern Albania without any reference to a tribe (there are of course different interpretations based on history and surname in the last decades of which tribe they could be)

Okay then, it is pretty sure that they have nothing to do with the ones from Rozaje. Thanks for this information.

Bihor
07-24-2021, 12:19 PM
I think you didn't understand me, of course there weren't 35 houses of Skenderovic who did the test, but one test counts for the whole family, except several different haplogroups were found, as long as there is only one haplogroup, it counts for the whole family!

There are clearly some wrong traditions, Gašanin from Sjenice say they come from Savin Bor from the Hadrović but it is more likely that they come from Rastoder from Bor!

The statistics I have listed are many times more accurate than statistics alone on the number of tested persons, we can't say 1 House Halilovic - R1a is the same like 88 houses Hadrovic - G2a in Upper Bihor.


Yes, you are right. I misunderstood the graphic from the dnk project because I did not expect that the Kocan`s 2x tested. And so of course the whole thing is a bit duplicated. I was also surprised because I did not expect such a high i2a value. I must correct myself, you are right in any case. I hope it will be further tested because I am pretty sure that there are Bratstva with multiple haplogroups as in the Hajdarpasic`s. Are you from the Bihor too?

Kelmendasi
07-24-2021, 10:03 PM
Bratonozic could be correct in terms of the region, but not the ancestry. One of our family was tested and the haplogroup had a match with the Abazi (Islamized?) family from Pukė.
I would be very grateful if someone knew more. Maybe someone also knows something about the Abazi's from Pukė. Many of them also live in Shkodra. thanks for any information.
Looking at the Gjenetika Shqiptare project public database, Abazi is in fact not from the town of Puka or even Albania for that matter. They are an ethnic Albanian from the Preševo Valley (Albanian: Lugina e Preshevės) and more specifically the large Pčinja District (Albanian: Pēinjė) in south-eastern Serbia. I also see that they claim fis or tribal origin from the Thaēi which is likely why they placed Puka as their place of origin on FTDNA given that the core territory of the Thaēi has historically been located to the south of the River Drin in the Pukė District of northern Albania. Based on the fact that the Abazi belong to an entirely different lineage than the bulk of the Thaēi, it can be assumed that they descend from a smaller fis or brotherhood that was adopted into the Thaēi. Something that was not unheard of in the history of the tribe.

The sample has been identified as J2b-Z1043>FGC55778 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC55778/) which is just upstream of Y98609 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y98609/) however due to the low resolution of testing it cannot be determined if they are in fact Y98609+ or not, I personally think that it certainly is a possibility. There is also another FGC55778+ sample on the project, an Albanian from the city of Skopje (Albanian: Shkup) in North Macedonia. This sample has paternal origin from the ethno-geographic territory of Luma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luma_(region)) which extends from north-eastern Albania into south-western Kosovo.

XXD
07-26-2021, 09:43 AM
It should be kept in mind that this lineage ultimately very likely came from Malėsia which would also include the Albanian-speaking territories of eastern Montenegro. So unless your common ancestor with these matches from Sandžak is extremely recent, I personally would not suggest a direct origin or arrival from Sandžak.

Regarding the Agovići, I confused the ones from Rožaje (Albanian: Rozhajė) with the ones from Petnjica who are R1b-Y82919>BY53973. The Agovići of Rožaja can directly trace back their paternal ancestry to the village of Selca of Kelmend and have tested as E-BY105970 which confirms their genealogy and tradition. As for the Agovići of Petnjica, there is not much information. There are some who suggest an origin from northern Albania though I could not find anything more specific.

Thanks for this Kelmendasi! So most likely from Malėsia, but not Sandzak - got it!