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subzero85
07-23-2020, 01:45 AM
38643

Noticed on the FTDNA Druze project that there were several males with H haplogroup(s).

We basically know that the Druze community is composed of those who are descendants, strict patrilineal descendants, from the families that accepted the Druze faith in 1017-1043. And that no new adherents to the Faith were allowed after this period.

Is there any record of South Asian males becoming Fatimid loyalists and assimilating into MENA culture? Or is H more common in the Middle East than is understood? Could it be plausible that we could find a good origin population if this is indeed from India?

Farroukh
07-23-2020, 02:11 AM
It seems they belong to H-Y201933, formed 4,6 kya. I think this line lives in Levant several thousand years before Islam. Maybe ancient Elamite heritage..?

parasar
07-23-2020, 02:29 AM
It seems they belong to H-Y201933, formed 4,6 kya. I think this line lives in Levant several thousand years before Islam. Maybe ancient Elamite heritage..?

Or maybe there is something plusible to the Druze being Aryans (Druhyu?) in remote times? I have spoken to a number to Druze families and they seem to always distinguish themselves from their neighbors.
They also have some L-M20.
"L-M20 was found in 51% of Syrians from Raqqa, a northern Syrian city whose previous inhabitants were wiped out by Mongol genocides and repopulated in recent times by local Bedouin populations and Chechen war refugees from Russia (El-Sibai 2009). In a small sample of Israeli Druze haplogroup L-M20 was found in 7 out of 20 (35%). However, studies done on bigger samples showed that L-M20 averages 5% in Israeli Druze,[Footnote 2] 8% in Lebanese Druze"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20

subzero85
07-23-2020, 02:37 AM
It seems they belong to H-Y201933, formed 4,6 kya. I think this line lives in Levant several thousand years before Islam. Maybe ancient Elamite heritage..?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-Y25776/

Looks like the guy from Mont Liban is 4.6 kya TMRCA with a Pakistani Punjabi.

Caspian
07-23-2020, 02:59 AM
Or maybe there is something plusible to the Druze being Aryans (Druhyu?) in remote times? I have spoken to a number to Druze families and they seem to always distinguish themselves from their neighbors.
They also have some L-M20.
"L-M20 was found in 51% of Syrians from Raqqa, a northern Syrian city whose previous inhabitants were wiped out by Mongol genocides and repopulated in recent times by local Bedouin populations and Chechen war refugees from Russia (El-Sibai 2009). In a small sample of Israeli Druze haplogroup L-M20 was found in 7 out of 20 (35%). However, studies done on bigger samples showed that L-M20 averages 5% in Israeli Druze,[Footnote 2] 8% in Lebanese Druze"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20

L-M20 of Middle East is not related with Indian or another population from South Asia. L-M20 is older in Middle East than Indian subcontinent also L-M20 has more diversity in the Middle East. The big part of L-M20 is L1b-M317 in the Middle East and this subclade absent in South Asia.
L-M27 and L-M357 of the Middle East are also not related with Indian subcontinent. So, they should be native in the Middle East. Probably, the subclades of L-M20 were originated in Levant, Mesopotamia, Southern Anatolia or Iranian plateau. L-M27 and L-M357 (L1a1 and L1a2) without L-M317 (L1b) and L-L595 (L2) expanded to South Asia during Neolithic period.

thejkhan
07-23-2020, 03:39 AM
38643

Noticed on the FTDNA Druze project that there were several males with H haplogroup(s).

We basically know that the Druze community is composed of those who are descendants, strict patrilineal descendants, from the families that accepted the Druze faith in 1017-1043. And that no new adherents to the Faith were allowed after this period.

Is there any record of South Asian males becoming Fatimid loyalists and assimilating into MENA culture? Or is H more common in the Middle East than is understood? Could it be plausible that we could find a good origin population if this is indeed from India?

Check this thread I started to discuss this particular clade - https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20610-H-Y25776-in-Lebanese-and-Kalash

It probably belonged to the Mittani related migrations.

Farroukh
07-23-2020, 03:58 AM
Or maybe there is something plusible to the Druze being Aryans (Druhyu?) in remote times?
In any case both of us talking about pre-Islamic times. Contacts between Levant and Southern Asia were through the millenniums.
It is impossible to clearly estimate their initial ethnic identity (Elamites, Mittanni Aryans and so on).

Also should be noted that all isolated religious groups consider themselves as "unique population" with "divine ancestry" which is just "prestige speculation". The core of Druze people is Levantine population.

pegasus
07-23-2020, 08:18 AM
It seems they belong to H-Y201933, formed 4,6 kya. I think this line lives in Levant several thousand years before Islam. Maybe ancient Elamite heritage..?

Of all the religions and sects in the Levant their faith, in particular, has a strong Dharmic substratum. I stayed in Moukhtara and 3yn W Zein by the account of their own Uqqals, some founders of their faith came from the subcontinent. The writer of most of their Hekmeh was actually an Eastern Iranian and/or Central Asian nobody quite knows. H1a does occur in Afghan Tajiks and Pashtuns , so its possible it came from similar populations or from further east. Most of the H1a Afghans were Pashtuns from Laghman, in that context that region fell in the Gandharan world which would explain the Dharmic aspect. Ultimately H1a originates with IVC people, since it is absent in all of Iran and Central Asia from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age and occurs only with 2 IVC outliers (one at Gonur and the other in Shahr I Sukhteh). The presence of H1a does substantiate what those Lebanese Druze Uqqals say.

Farroukh
07-23-2020, 08:47 AM
Of all the religions and sects in the Levant their faith, in particular, has a strong Dharmic substratum.
Religions of Levant (including late Abrahamic teachings) descent from earlier pagan cults ("Canaanite religion" and so on) which are quit older than Indo-Aryan concept of Dharma. Yes, there are many Zoroastrian influences in Judaism, but all of them dated back 1 mill. BC.
Druze branch is quite older than all these ancient events.

pegasus
07-23-2020, 09:14 AM
Religions of Levant (including late Abrahamic teachings) descent from earlier pagan cults ("Canaanite religion" and so on) which are quit older than Indo-Aryan concept of Dharma. Yes, there are many Zoroastrian influences in Judaism, but all of them dated back 1 mill. BC.
Druze branch is quite older than all these ancient events.

The corpus of Druze religion has a lot of shared theology with Judaism so the main take away is it formed much later , the IA let alone the BA is out of the question. The Gandharan world emanates from the Classical period and ending in the early Medieval period in South Asia. Its highly doubtful its autochthonous or mediated via the early IVC. To JKhan's point even Kalash have a unique H1a clade. Its possible his theory has some weight granted some Druze have L657/Z2124 clades of R1a. Though given the time frame of their religion its more tenuous.

Farroukh
07-23-2020, 01:28 PM
Druze religion is a kind of Ismailism with influences of other cults and beliefs and inclusants. Also R2-M124 could be considered as Indo-Afghan inclusion.

Rahuls77
07-23-2020, 01:41 PM
The corpus of Druze religion has a lot of shared theology with Judaism so the main take away is it formed much later , the IA let alone the BA is out of the question. The Gandharan world emanates from the Classical period and ending in the early Medieval period in South Asia. Its highly doubtful its autochthonous or mediated via the early IVC. To JKhan's point even Kalash have a unique H1a clade. Its possible his theory has some weight granted some Druze have L657/Z2124 clades of R1a. Though given the time frame of their religion its more tenuous.

It probably ties in with the Zoroastrian concept of falsehood, the Druj, at the very least its a cognate. And just like the schism with the Vedics, there might have been another branch they had a schism with.

pegasus
07-23-2020, 02:41 PM
It probably ties in with the Zoroastrian concept of falsehood, the Druj, at the very least its a cognate. And just like the schism with the Vedics, there might have been another branch they had a schism with.

Not really, that really does not have much bearing, honestly, while there are musings of Zoroastrianism influencing Abrahamic religions in particular esoteric sects, there is nothing concrete that would pin it, in fact, it was almost completely obliterated in the country of its origin that too quite rapidly. I should mention Greek philosophy in particular Neoplatonism also plays a significant role in Druze faith.

Rahuls77
07-23-2020, 02:54 PM
Not really, that really does not have much bearing, honestly, while there are musings of Zoroastrianism influencing Abrahamic religions in particular esoteric sects, there is nothing concrete that would pin it, in fact, it was almost completely obliterated in the country of its origin that too quite rapidly. I should mention Greek philosophy in particular Neoplatonism also plays a significant role in Druze faith.

A schism wouldn't really be any similar, would it?
It could have been a contrasting or a distinct set of beliefs. Consider the case of Modern Hinduism. It has evolved much as well, when you compare it with the Rig Vedic religion, with influences likely coming from a lot of old, ancient South Asian customs and practices. Even Zoroaster's religion had begun changing a bit from the old Avestan. Druj, as Zoroaster calls it a falsehood, equivalent to a heresy, could have become much distinct, with the course of time.

parasar
07-23-2020, 03:46 PM
L-M20 of Middle East is not related with Indian or another population from South Asia. L-M20 is older in Middle East than Indian subcontinent also L-M20 has more diversity in the Middle East. The big part of L-M20 is L1b-M317 in the Middle East and this subclade absent in South Asia.
L-M27 and L-M357 of the Middle East are also not related with Indian subcontinent. So, they should be native in the Middle East. Probably, the subclades of L-M20 were originated in Levant, Mesopotamia, Southern Anatolia or Iranian plateau. L-M27 and L-M357 (L1a1 and L1a2) without L-M317 (L1b) and L-L595 (L2) expanded to South Asia during Neolithic period.

There is L1-M317 in India and I'm sure L2-L595 too will crop up as it was seen in 2700 BC Tepe Hissar. The movement I think was from BMAC region to Tepe Hissar and Maikop and from Tepe Hissar to the Levant.

DMXX
07-23-2020, 04:07 PM
I'd actually written a brief paper based on Y-STR's over six years ago (was never published*) that examined Y-DNA L-M20.

From memory, based on the Y-STR data available at the time, L1b-M317 looked like a W-CW Asian subclade (both in terms of frequency and the presence of divergent lines).

I did find a fairly well-defined S. Asian cluster (sourced from Arunkumar et al. IIRC), but it was divergent from the more populous pan-W. Asian one (which included Lebanese sample pops). Don't recall seeing any special association between them.

Don't know how cleanly that matches the current Y-SNP evidence. Y-STR analysis is certainly less robust, but (as a matter of categorical certainty) once one achieves n=X Y-STR panels and n=Y downstream SNPs, the correlations should be fairly strong.

* Was left as an incomplete drafted manuscript, didn't pursue any journals.

DMXX
07-23-2020, 04:16 PM
Found my L1b phylogenetic Y-STR chart for those who're interested (attached).

The appropriate caveats:


Based on Y-STR's (n=19 IIRC)
Circa 2014 data
I didn't perform my intended validation checks on the outputs
No replication (through either STR's or SNP's)


38654

Farroukh
07-23-2020, 04:31 PM
Did you use Yfiler format (17 markers standard)?
Did you check them all using nevgen predictor?

DMXX
07-23-2020, 04:38 PM
Did you use Yfiler format (17 markers standard)?

It was YFiler Plus (19 STR's, just checked).



Did you check them all using nevgen predictor?


IIRC, all were SNP-backed haplotypes (i.e. confirmed as L1b via SNPs in the original papers).

I also calculated the variance of the L1b regional haplotypes (alongside "old" L1a and L1c).

L1b's pan-STR average variance was low (0.10) for S. Asia (n=11) but greater (0.35) for W. Asia (n=35). So, the non-phylogenetic stats match what the phylogenetic model demonstrated.

The seeming congruence between the pan-loci variance average and the sample size above is a coincidence (the calculations for M27 and M357 don't have the same outcome). L1c was very interesting.

I should've finished this paper.

vettor
07-23-2020, 05:37 PM
Or maybe there is something plusible to the Druze being Aryans (Druhyu?) in remote times? I have spoken to a number to Druze families and they seem to always distinguish themselves from their neighbors.
They also have some L-M20.
"L-M20 was found in 51% of Syrians from Raqqa, a northern Syrian city whose previous inhabitants were wiped out by Mongol genocides and repopulated in recent times by local Bedouin populations and Chechen war refugees from Russia (El-Sibai 2009). In a small sample of Israeli Druze haplogroup L-M20 was found in 7 out of 20 (35%). However, studies done on bigger samples showed that L-M20 averages 5% in Israeli Druze,[Footnote 2] 8% in Lebanese Druze"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20

I agree with the Pamir Knot area ( south central Asia ) is where haplogroup LT where and where they split into L and T

That is a high percentage for ydna L ..................maybe these Druze are also ancient Assyrians as this paper below has a high % of T ydna for Kurds/Assyrians ....we know haplogroup L and T where once united into haplogroup LT

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3286660/

Raqqa , IIRC is Kurdish area .......................


this paper below only had 17% of T under Druze ............not as high as L ydna

Original Paper
Published: 27 August 2014
Inferring population structure and demographic history using Y-STR data from worldwide populations
Hongyang Xu, Chuan-Chao Wang, Rukesh Shrestha, Ling-Xiang Wang, Manfei Zhang, Yungang He, Judith R. Kidd, Kenneth K. Kidd, Li Jin & Hui Li

the bulk of T in that area comes from Zaza people as per map in link below
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurmanji

vettor
07-23-2020, 05:49 PM
It probably ties in with the Zoroastrian concept of falsehood, the Druj, at the very least its a cognate. And just like the schism with the Vedics, there might have been another branch they had a schism with.

If you read about ancient persians ...........they state they arrived in Iran from modern Uzbekistan circa 1100BC and brought zorastrian with them to Iran ......................this is what I keep seeing on the net, ....not sure

Farroukh
07-23-2020, 05:51 PM
It was YFiler Plus (19 STR's, just checked).
Can you post them here?

Rahuls77
07-23-2020, 09:04 PM
If you read about ancient persians ...........they state they arrived in Iran from modern Uzbekistan circa 1100BC and brought zorastrian with them to Iran ......................this is what I keep seeing on the net, ....not sure

I was merely shooting in the dark, if there were migrations, they are way far back in a period from which e have no hopes of getting any recorded accounts of migrations, in any direction. Genetics can help, however everyone is going to have one's own perspective.
Same is the issue with Zoroaster's origins, while some place it in Balkh, modern Iranian nationalists tend to place it in Iran, while most scholars tend to place it somewhere in what became the Khorasan, virtually in the Yaz Culture country. But eventually even Zoroaster's religion was influenced by the religion of Iranian plateau, just as Hinduism has developed in South Asia.
PS: Cultures and beliefs people hold, they change or go through transformation over a period, and wrt the Druze and the Indo-Iranians, we are speaking of several thousand years, if they did share common ground and inputs way back in that past.

Amber29
07-23-2020, 09:20 PM
38669

this ydna str match is druze origin- since were on the topic! lol

subzero85
07-23-2020, 09:31 PM
38669

this ydna str match is druze origin- since were on the topic! lol

Who is this of?

Amber29
07-23-2020, 09:33 PM
Who is this of?

my families ydna line haha

subzero85
07-24-2020, 10:51 PM
my families ydna line haha

So perhaps there were South Asian male(s) with at least R2 that joined the Druze as well?

Amber29
07-24-2020, 11:02 PM
So perhaps there were South Asian male(s) with at least R2 that joined the Druze as well?

have no clue yet but as far as im aware the R2a is a Zagros line where it travelled after that, my families subclade is still unique atm (its limited to my family only atm) - so untill more testers are found cant say anything yet esp when majority are in west asia and east europe (of jewish origin) only 2 Indian brahmins but not even a close match to me which i was suprised at lol - there other R2 lebanese on my fathers dna match list but i dont know if they are druze there one in lebanese in another subclade under Y12100 not sure if that is druze either - difficult to say atm with less data but there is also a saudi dude under that subclade on ftdna wonder if he has a druze connection or something? time will tell only. lol

thejkhan
07-24-2020, 11:05 PM
So perhaps there were South Asian male(s) with at least R2 that joined the Druze as well?

More likely "eastern Iranic" male. Their closest lineage is found in Uzbekistan.

38689

Magnetic
07-25-2020, 11:18 AM
there are a decent amount of domaris / gypsies in west asia . it is very likely that the H haplo in west asia belongs to doms . most likely they are the only ones with those haplo . but haplogroups are a very small part of our dna anyway as you know :) so either way it wouldnt mean much and I would not intepret too much into it OP

pegasus
07-25-2020, 12:06 PM
there are a decent amount of domaris / gypsies in west asia . it is very likely that the H haplo in west asia belongs to doms . most likely they are the only ones with those haplo . but haplogroups are a very small part of our dna anyway as you know :) so either way it wouldnt mean much and I would not intepret too much into it OP

What you are suggesting makes no sense.
Considering Druze have traditionally occupied the landowning class in Lebanon and they have more or less been endogamous since the 11th century, the odds of intermarrying with Dom/Domari people is out of the question. I don't know what you mean by "our", since your not a Druze.

H1a and L1a entered Lebanon during the Classical period, which I mentioned in an earlier post and formal papers support that.

We found that the Hellenistic and early Roman population can be modeled as a mixture of the local population, Beirut_IA (88%–94%), and a Central/South Asian population (6%–12%) (Tables 2 and S8 and Figure 2C). We then analyzed haplotype segments shared between the ancient Lebanese and modern populations in set 2 by using ChromoPainter44 on 2.5 million imputed SNPs and found that two Hellenistic individuals (SFI-5 and SFI-12) and one early Roman individual (SFI-11) had excess haplotype sharing with Central and South Asians (Figures 2E and S9), thus confirming the qpAdm results. The relationship of ancient Lebanon with Central and South Asia also manifests in the presence of haplogroup L1a1-M27 among the modern Lebanese Y chromosome lineages (Figure S10). Haplogroup L1a1-M27 is common today in Central and South Asia .

The relationship of ancient Lebanon with Central and South Asia also manifests in the presence of haplogroup L1a1-M27 among the modern Lebanese Y chromosome lineages (Figure S10). Haplogroup L1a1-M27 is common today in Central and South Asia but rare elsewhere

We tested46 (see Supplemental Methods) the coalescence of the five L1a1-M27 Lebanese chromosomes and found that they all derived from a man who lived around 450 BCE–50 CE, a time interval overlapping with the Hellenistic period


In context of L1a and H1a being present in SPGT, a similar H1a clade in Kalash, the Dharmic substratum in Druze Tawhid, all arrows point to Gandharan related people during the Seleucid or Post Seleucid Era.

Magnetic
07-25-2020, 12:11 PM
by "our" I meant humans in general

you are right that it is less likely with the druze to intermarry with domaris . but I dont think it is impossible tbh

just wanted to give some food for thought and another possible explanation . of course everything is possible in the end

Caspian
07-27-2020, 12:16 AM
There is L1-M317 in India and I'm sure L2-L595 too will crop up as it was seen in 2700 BC Tepe Hissar. The movement I think was from BMAC region to Tepe Hissar and Maikop and from Tepe Hissar to the Levant.

Indian L1b-M317 has certain Portuguese origins probably from campaigns of Vasco Da Gama in the Medieval era If you meant a member of FTDNA haplogrup L project and Yfull below. There are other L1b-M317 samples among Parsi population of India, but they aren't native in the India, they have certain Iranian origins. Their Str haplotypes are the same with other Iranian L1b-M317 samples from Fars and Yazd province. I saw Parsi and Iranian haplotypes in the Ysearch, when Ysearch was open.

https://i.ibb.co/4SRg0s2/portoguese-l1b.jpg

We already have ancient L samples in Chalcolithic Armenia which are older than BMAC, Tepe Hissar and Maikop and Chalcolithic Armenian L samples don't have South Asian connection in their autosomal genetics.

akm oma
08-04-2020, 05:37 PM
Religions of Levant (including late Abrahamic teachings) descent from earlier pagan cults ("Canaanite religion" and so on) which are quit older than Indo-Aryan concept of Dharma. Yes, there are many Zoroastrian influences in Judaism, but all of them dated back 1 mill. BC.
Druze branch is quite older than all these ancient events.

thatís ridiculous the struggle of abraham and the prophets was fighting not continuing it
monotheism vs paganism