PDA

View Full Version : Albanian J-ZS241 Big Y-700 result



Kelmendasi
07-29-2020, 09:33 PM
Hi all!

My Big Y-700 results have finally come in and they are rather interesting. I have tested positive for Y3081 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3081/) (ZS241) and its phyloequivalent SNPs, I am also positive for two rather unique SNPs under ZS241: BY32817 and BY32820. Both these SNPs are phyloequivalent to J-BY32809 and are also shared by two other samples, both of whom are of English origin and have no knowledge of foreign paternal ancestry. However, it seems that I am negative for BY32809 itself and a few of the other SNPs, so I should split the branch further. I will upload to Yfull soon and see how far back my TMRCA with these two samples is, one of them has already uploaded to Yfull and is classified as J-Y3081*.

Here's my Y-DNA Haplotree:

https://i.postimg.cc/FstGJ9bs/image-10.png

I was wondering if any of you had an idea or theory on how and when this line may have entered the Balkans? I personally would suggest a possible Roman expansion, however it'll be hard to know for sure without uploading to Yfull and seeing how distant my relation to the J-BY32809 samples is.

I should also note that FTDNA has incorrectly assigned my terminal SNP as J-BY223621, which is a downstream of FGC11>Y10887. This is due to the fact that the BY223621 SNP itself has some stability issues which make it unreliable. I have contacted FTDNA to change this assignment and fix my Block Tree. So for now, this classification should just be ignored.

Thanks

Trojet
07-29-2020, 11:12 PM
Congrats! Very interesting result (basal J-ZS241).

I guess our hesitation, as suggested by a couple of non modal values, to not classify you any deeper than J-ZS241 without further testing turned out correct :P

I just checked your BigY results. You are indeed positive for ZS241, Y3081 plus other equivalents. And positive for 5 out of 30 SNPs shared by the Englishmen.
So you will form a subclade defined by SNPs: BY32817, BY32820, BY32833, BY32835, BZ595, which will be parallel to the popular J-Y3082/FGC13873.

From what I understood, one of these samples is YF65400 on YFull. Rough estimation suggests the TMRCA with the Englishmen should be around 5000 ybp. This result suggests that your lineage may have arrived to Europe since the Bronze Age. Though it remains to be seen if this new subclade will be found outside of Europe, particularly in the Eastern Mediterranean.

Kelmendasi
07-29-2020, 11:40 PM
Congrats! Very interesting result (basal J-ZS241).

I guess our hesitation, as suggested by a couple of non modal values, to not classify you any deeper than J-ZS241 without further testing turned out correct :P

I just checked your BigY results. You are indeed positive for ZS241, Y3081 plus other equivalents. And positive for 5 out of 30 SNPs shared by the Englishmen.
So you will form a subclade defined by SNPs: BY32817, BY32820, BY32833, BY32835, BZ595, which will be parallel to the popular J-Y3082/FGC13873.

From what I understood, one of these samples is YF65400 on YFull. Rough estimation suggests the TMRCA with the Englishmen should be around 5000 ybp. This result suggests that your lineage may have arrived to Europe since the Bronze Age. Though it remains to be seen if this new subclade will be found outside of Europe, particularly in the Eastern Mediterranean.
Indeed, we can now say for sure that the relation to S20075 (ZS227) that was speculated by some based on Y-25 was incorrect.

Yes, sample YF65400 is one of the J-BY32809 members and is the one from England (the other, who is on FTDNA, is from the United States but of English descent). The fact that I form my own basal branch does indeed seem to favour the theory of an earlier arrival into Europe or the Balkans. I really hope that in the future we will find some closer matches and pin-point the spread of this cluster, in order to get a better idea of when it arrived.

levantino II
07-30-2020, 04:46 AM
Congratulations on the result. I must ask did You use YHRD (Powerplex) to check possible connection with some other haplotypes who are not on the FTDNA database or any with konown names?

Kelmendasi
07-30-2020, 06:34 AM
Congratulations on the result. I must ask did You use YHRD (Powerplex) to check possible connection with some other haplotypes who are not on the FTDNA database or any with konown names?
I've uploaded my CSV file to the site, but unfortunately they could not find any matches.

levantino II
07-30-2020, 11:06 AM
I've uploaded my CSV file to the site, but unfortunately they could not find any matches.

Thanks. I don't know how they check those files but even on seven markers they have the chance to miss some close connections. In Minimal complete, with seven markers they have one complex and some relatively fast markers like DYS391 and DYS389II. I prefer manual entering into Search option

I play a little with Cooper haplotype and I found following result:

393-390-19-391-385ab-439-389I-392-389II-458-437-448-GATAH4-456-438-635
12- 23- 14- 10- 15/15- 11- 13- 11- 29- 16.2- 14- 20- 12- 15- 10-22

This looks very close to Coopers haplotype, especially if we reduce value on GATAH4 for -1 (on eleven). This haplotype is from:"Analysis of 36 Y-STR marker units including a concordance study among 2085 Dutch males" as NL1996 Table 2

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497314002282#upi0005

I know this is Cooper and not your haplotype but I believe it could be useful for some analysis of your branch

Kelmendasi
07-30-2020, 06:10 PM
Thanks. I don't know how they check those files but even on seven markers they have the chance to miss some close connections. In Minimal complete, with seven markers they have one complex and some relatively fast markers like DYS391 and DYS389II. I prefer manual entering into Search option

I play a little with Cooper haplotype and I found following result:

393-390-19-391-385ab-439-389I-392-389II-458-437-448-GATAH4-456-438-635
12- 23- 14- 10- 15/15- 11- 13- 11- 29- 16.2- 14- 20- 12- 15- 10-22

This looks very close to Coopers haplotype, especially if we reduce value on GATAH4 for -1 (on eleven). This haplotype is from:"Analysis of 36 Y-STR marker units including a concordance study among 2085 Dutch males" as NL1996 Table 2

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497314002282#upi0005

I know this is Cooper and not your haplotype but I believe it could be useful for some analysis of your branch
I could PM you my STR markers so that you could search for any potential matches, I'm not fully sure on how to use the YHRD site and find the markers of these samples in order to compare with mine.

Though on Minimal it says that I have 13 matches in 307,169 haplotypes, I do not seem to have matches on the other higher levels however.

levantino II
07-31-2020, 03:49 AM
No problem. I'll be glad to do it.

I need just 17 markers:

393-390-19-391-385ab-439-389I-392-389II-458-437-448-GATAH4-456-438-635

Kelmendasi
08-01-2020, 10:38 AM
FTDNA has just updated my results and the Haplotree. I am now classified as J-BY32817 which is correct, and this is also shown on the Haplotree where I am just upstream of BY32809.

https://i.postimg.cc/HWw5KTkS/image-11.png

Agamemnon
08-14-2020, 12:30 AM
Was planning on writing this when the forum went down:

BY32817 is a very interesting and basal branch, its distribution is somewhat puzzling. Considering how ZS241 itself is a major branch of YSC234 and the presence of ZS241 in the most ancient Middle Bronze Age sample from Megiddo (I10268) there is in my view no question that your branch originated in the Levant. The question that needs to be asked is where exactly in the Levant. It is tempting to draw conclusions from its presence in MBA Megiddo and assign a Canaanite origin to this branch, on the other hand an origin among the Amorites in Syria is just as feasible, it's also unclear to what extent the Canaanites can be distinguished from the Amorites as it is likely they too originally were southern Amorites. One could infer an arrival in Europe during the Late Bronze Age as Mycenaean trade made its way to Lezh and its immediate surroundings, LBA trade networks were thoroughly interconnected and it is entirely plausible for some Canaanite trader to have made his way to what would later become Illyria. Alternatively, a later origin during Roman times is also plausible considering the pre-Y3081 case from Civitanova Marche (R85) during the Imperial Period, this could be Syrian/Aramean just as easily as it could be Judean. Much of this depends on your branch's TMRCA and on future finds.

Again, this bears repeating, there is little doubt that your branch is ultimately NW Semitic in origin, and has its roots in the earliest Semitic-speaking groups in the region. ZS241 itself might also have been present east of the Jordan river, which adds another layer of complexity.

Kelmendasi
08-14-2020, 10:55 AM
Was planning on writing this when the forum went down:

BY32817 is a very interesting and basal branch, its distribution is somewhat puzzling. Considering how ZS241 itself is a major branch of YSC234 and the presence of ZS241 in the most ancient Middle Bronze Age sample from Megiddo (I10268) there is in my view no question that your branch originated in the Levant. The question that needs to be asked is where exactly in the Levant. It is tempting to draw conclusions from its presence in MBA Megiddo and assign a Canaanite origin to this branch, on the other hand an origin among the Amorites in Syria is just as feasible, it's also unclear to what extent the Canaanites can be distinguished from the Amorites as it is likely they too originally were southern Amorites. One could infer an arrival in Europe during the Late Bronze Age as Mycenean trade made its way to Lezh and its immediate surroundings, LBA trade networks were thoroughly interconnected and it is entirely plausible for some Canaanite trader to have made his way to what would later become Illyria. Alternatively, a later origin during Roman times is also plausible considering the pre-Y3081 case from Civitanova Marche (R85) during the Imperial Period, this could be Syrian/Aramean just as easily as it could be Judean. Much of this depends on your branch's TMRCA and on future finds.

Again, this bears repeating, there is little doubt that your branch is ultimately NW Semitic in origin, and has its roots in the earliest Semitic-speaking groups in the region. ZS241 itself might also have been present east of the Jordan river, which adds another layer of complexity.
Great input as always Agamemnon!

I too think that it's fairly certain that ZS241>BY32817 originated and expanded from somewhere around the Levant, within a NW Semitic-speaking population. This is what all the evidence around ZS241 is suggesting. For me it's also a question of when my lineage arrived into Europe, I think both an arrival during the LBA or Roman period are likely. However, given that so far my relation to my closest matches (BY32817>BY32809) dates back to the Bronze Age, a LBA arrival could be more plausible. Though we still cannot say this with much confidence given the scarcity of samples.

I have uploaded to Yfull and am currently classified as just J-Y3081* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3081*/). We'll need to wait for the next update in order to find out the exact TMRCA shared between me and sample YF65400 from England. I was also wondering if you knew more in regards to the origin of these samples from Britain and how BY32809 may have arrived?

ShpataEMadhe
01-14-2021, 08:42 PM
Reason why it appears in Britain and not much else is because not enough ancient dna has been tested in middle east, north africa and LOT of testing has been done in UK.

P58 is a strong arab muslim expansion marker mostly in middle east, north africa and spain/Portugal but if your y dna is related to an old British line then it won't be from that but could be instead from Jewish people. May have migrated by Romans initially as slaves, maybe later on as citizens of the empire.

I personally don't think P58 is Jewish, they are not exactly the same people as Arabs but would have history due to living nearby for thousands of years - some of which, would be violent history of course

There is absolutely no reason for this being brought to albania FROM britain, I can only imagine your line had brothers in Italy or in middle east and moved to Albania from there. When, who knows

What is the history of your family if we can ask? About their culture/jobs etc, what do you know?

Kelmendasi
01-15-2021, 12:51 PM
The Arabic-speaking nations, especially the the Arab states of the Persian Gulf, are actually rather overrepresented on Yfull and there is a substantial amount of Y-DNA haplogroup research on them. As of now, J-Y3081 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3081/) or J-ZS241 clusters as a whole are fairly negligible among those nations.

Associating the whole of J-P58 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-P58/), a haplogroup that has a TMRCA of ~9,200 ybp and various sub-clusters with unique histories and expansions, with the early Muslim conquests of the 7th and 8th centuries is erroneous and does not explain the presence and diversity of a multitude of clusters in various countries. The cluster that could be considered quintessentially Arab or Proto-Arabic is J-Y10887 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y10887/) (FGC1695) which has branches spread throughout the Arabic-speaking world and has a TMRCA of ~3,100 ybp according to Yfull estimations, a century or so before the Arabs first enter the historical spotlight during the mid-9th century BCE (first attested as taking part in the Battle of Qarqar in 853 BCE). Sure, the expanding Arabs likely picked up other clusters throughout their history, however this still would not explain many clusters. And attributing the clusters present among Jewish populations to historical contact with Arab groups is also incorrect, for the most part they are diverged from clusters found among the Arabs and have been found in Bronze Age archaeological sites and cultures that are significant in regards to the formation of populations such as the Judeans or Israelites (e.g., MBA Megiddo).

In regards to my cluster which is J-BY32817 or J-Y179831 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y179831/) on Yfull, the only thing that we can say for certain is that it originated in the Bronze Age Levant within a population group that spoke a Northwest Semitic dialect, possibly from the Canaanite dialectal continuum, however as user Agamemnon stated it could also just as easily be Aramean. The samples of British origin are BY32817>BY32809+, I am negative for BY32809. User Levantino II has stated previously that a fairly similar haplotype to the British one was found in a study on Dutch men, so if this is the case we can assume that J-BY32809 may have a more northwestern European association in regards to distribution. However, my cluster split from this one ~4,600 ybp so while they are the closest to me they are still extremely distant. The connection to the firmly Jewish clusters under S20075/ZS227 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-S20075/) is even more distant with the TMRCA being ~5,600 ybp. It is possible that my line is ultimately Judean and that it may have arrived with Roman imperialism or even during the later phases of the Bronze Age, however without more data and samples, especially from the Levant or Eastern Mediterranean, it is hard to come to any hard conclusions.

ShpataEMadhe
01-16-2021, 01:04 PM
The Arabic-speaking nations, especially the the Arab states of the Persian Gulf, are actually rather overrepresented on Yfull and there is a substantial amount of Y-DNA haplogroup research on them. As of now, J-Y3081 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3081/) or J-ZS241 clusters as a whole are fairly negligible among those nations.

Associating the whole of J-P58 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-P58/), a haplogroup that has a TMRCA of ~9,200 ybp and various sub-clusters with unique histories and expansions, with the early Muslim conquests of the 7th and 8th centuries is erroneous and does not explain the presence and diversity of a multitude of clusters in various countries. The cluster that could be considered quintessentially Arab or Proto-Arabic is J-Y10887 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y10887/) (FGC1695) which has branches spread throughout the Arabic-speaking world and has a TMRCA of ~3,100 ybp according to Yfull estimations, a century or so before the Arabs first enter the historical spotlight during the mid-9th century BCE (first attested as taking part in the Battle of Qarqar in 853 BCE). Sure, the expanding Arabs likely picked up other clusters throughout their history, however this still would not explain many clusters. And attributing the clusters present among Jewish populations to historical contact with Arab groups is also incorrect, for the most part they are diverged from clusters found among the Arabs and have been found in Bronze Age archaeological sites and cultures that are significant in regards to the formation of populations such as the Judeans or Israelites (e.g., MBA Megiddo).

In regards to my cluster which is J-BY32817 or J-Y179831 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y179831/) on Yfull, the only thing that we can say for certain is that it originated in the Bronze Age Levant within a population group that spoke a Northwest Semitic dialect, possibly from the Canaanite dialectal continuum, however as user Agamemnon stated it could also just as easily be Aramean. The samples of British origin are BY32817>BY32809+, I am negative for BY32809. User Levantino II has stated previously that a fairly similar haplotype to the British one was found in a study on Dutch men, so if this is the case we can assume that J-BY32809 may have a more northwestern European association in regards to distribution. However, my cluster split from this one ~4,600 ybp so while they are the closest to me they are still extremely distant. The connection to the firmly Jewish clusters under S20075/ZS227 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-S20075/) is even more distant with the TMRCA being ~5,600 ybp. It is possible that my line is ultimately Judean and that it may have arrived with Roman imperialism or even during the later phases of the Bronze Age, however without more data and samples, especially from the Levant or Eastern Mediterranean, it is hard to come to any hard conclusions.

I would suggest digging into some Italian y dna for potential links, it is possible this could be a phoenician marker if not jewish. Italy has history with both cultures and reason for a related line found in England would have to tie in with the romans

There is little reason for proto j1 to exist in England when early r1b pretty much wiped everyone out - earliest j1 in England is surely either phoenician roman, middle eastern roman or slightly later jewish slaves (I think Jews were forbidden from joining the army?) - should be late BC/early AD

Agamemnon
01-16-2021, 10:20 PM
I would suggest digging into some Italian y dna for potential links, it is possible this could be a phoenician marker if not jewish. Italy has history with both cultures and reason for a related line found in England would have to tie in with the romans

There is little reason for proto j1 to exist in England when early r1b pretty much wiped everyone out - earliest j1 in England is surely either phoenician roman, middle eastern roman or slightly later jewish slaves (I think Jews were forbidden from joining the army?) - should be late BC/early AD

While it is reasonable to imagine that there is an underlying link to Italy and to the Phoenicians, the only branch which might fit the bill so far is BY143137 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-BY143137/). Yet here too, a Phoenician provenance for this lineage isn't exactly convincing. Likewise, a Jewish origin for Kelmendasi's basal branch isn't convincing, anything which isn't under ZS227 (S20075 on YFull) is unlikely to have much to do with the Israelites, in fact there are reasons to suspect that prior to the Babylonian exile Z18271 amounted to less than 1% of the Israelite lineages and that those under Y3081 back then were ZS227 or ZS222 (Y3088) xZ18271 but that's another issue entirely (just keep in mind that the current predominance of Z18271 is severely skewing our understanding of the lineage's ancient history).

The overall distribution of ZS241, especially its basal cases, combined with its appearance in MBA Megiddo strongly hints at a dispersal with the Amorites. The real question is to what extent the Amorites can be differentiated from their Canaanite neighbours. Considering the broadly Amorite background for this lineage, which makes sense looking at ZS241's place in Z2331's broader phylogeny, we should expect it to show up in other sites where the material culture is affiliated to the Amorite cultural assemblage highlighted on the following map:


https://i.imgur.com/3efMLE3.png


The appearance at Alalakh of a branch of FGC4745 (like ZS241, a major xL858 branch of J1-YSC234) which has similar TMRCA estimates falling somewhere around the middle of the 3rd millennium BCE, much like BY32817, further strengthens the odds that we are dealing with a branch tied to Amorite dispersals. It wouldn't be surprising to find Y3081 at Ugarit, Mari or Avaris at this stage, that much is clear. What is less clear is how this basal branch made it to Albania. R835 from Civitanova Marche was Y3081, but considering his autosomal profile I think this individual might have been of partial Jewish descent. The truth is that we do not know.

ShpataEMadhe
01-16-2021, 11:52 PM
@Agamemnon

Some cool stuff.

"Amorite, member of an ancient Semitic-speaking people who dominated the history of Mesopotamia, Syria, and Palestine from about 2000 to about 1600 BC. In the oldest cuneiform sources (c. 2400–c. 2000 BC), the Amorites were equated with the West, though their true place of origin was most likely Arabia, not Syria."

The history of the Amorites ends at 1200BC so they became assimilated into other cultures in the region. As we know the Romans took control over most of the region early AD so that's a 1300+ year gap. What Kelmendasi wants to know is how it ended up in Albania and when. What we know is that they were in Syria/Iraq 1200BC and were soon conquered by Hittites as well as Assyrians