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avalon
02-03-2014, 09:53 PM
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497312001810

In light of all the recent discussions about ancient European pigmention I just discovered this 2013 study about hair and eye colour in the above countries.

If I am reading the results correctly, table 1, then Ireland came out with 77% light eyes (blue, green and intermediate) and Poland a bit less at 69% and Greece 24%.

Hair colour is different though with the percentage of Irish samples with dark brown or black hair being 50% which is the same as Greece. Poland is lighter haired than the other two which comes as no surprise.

There are different shades of red hair classification (auburn red/brown, blond red and red) and I believe Ireland was 11.50% to Poland's 8.69% and Greece at 2.5%.

Interestingly, with with respect to Ireland, this study is broadly in line with old anthropology studies from years ago that showed the Irish to be predominantly dark haired but with high levels of blue eyes and a significant minority of red heads.

lgmayka
02-03-2014, 11:35 PM
Only 33% of Poles have dark brown or black hair, 58% have blond or dark blond (= light brown) hair, and 9% have auburn (= brown-red), red, or blond-red hair.

4% of Poles have true-red hair, whereas only 3% of Irish do. This is not necessarily the impression one gets from Polish-Americans, perhaps because their ancestry is more often from southern Poland. Nevertheless, all of my grandparents are from southern Poland, yet two of my four brothers have red hair. (One brother has black hair, while the other brother and I have light brown.)

The authors' prediction algorithm based on genetics correctly predicted blond hair only 70% of the time.

alan
02-04-2014, 07:55 AM
This is just a personal view. I traveled through Poland from the south border to the Baltic for several weeks a number of years back and in general I thought their hair colour is in the same middling zone as isles folks-average probably mid brown and mousey was common (the latter much more so than in Ireland) but adult blonde hair didnt seem common at all. The main difference between poles and Irish is Poles seem very much dominated by ash shades of brown and mousey while the Irish have a richer darker brown, very often with a reddish tint breaking through and in general the Irish seem to have much more extremes of hair colour ranging from near-Black to bright yellow or red while poles are often in the mousey bracket. As for redheads, I barely saw a single Pole with red hair except right at the southern border I saw a few. Same in the Baltic ex-USSR states. I saw no redheads until Estonia and I think even they were Finns over for the cheap beer. When it comes to red shades there is no comparison in my experience - its vastly more common among the Irish and British in my experience. Eyes wise they were similar to the Irish in that light predominated and lighter eyed than the English. Skin tone wise they were more monotone, better at tanning by a long chalk than the Irish. Irish tend to have skin that is much more pale, often with a rosey cheeks and light freckles when young. Height wise Poles seemed middling and similar to the Irish but with the odd giant. Face wise, both the men and women seem dominated by the sort of soft rounded face structure and relatively small heads in Poland, Irish (men, not so much women) can be more angular and have far larger heads. The Polish women are very pretty and more delicately featured than many western Europeans - probably some of the best looking women in Europe.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497312001810

In light of all the recent discussions about ancient European pigmention I just discovered this 2013 study about hair and eye colour in the above countries.

If I am reading the results correctly, table 1, then Ireland came out with 77% light eyes (blue, green and intermediate) and Poland a bit less at 69% and Greece 24%.

Hair colour is different though with the percentage of Irish samples with dark brown or black hair being 50% which is the same as Greece. Poland is lighter haired than the other two which comes as no surprise.

There are different shades of red hair classification (auburn red/brown, blond red and red) and I believe Ireland was 11.50% to Poland's 8.69% and Greece at 2.5%.

Interestingly, with with respect to Ireland, this study is broadly in line with old anthropology studies from years ago that showed the Irish to be predominantly dark haired but with high levels of blue eyes and a significant minority of red heads.

lgmayka
02-04-2014, 09:55 AM
As for redheads, I barely saw a single Pole with red hair except right at the southern border I saw a few.
Your experience does not coincide with the research paper's figures, and I think I see why. The paper is an expansion and continuation of previous research (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-010-0939-8/fulltext.html). This earlier paper (with a much smaller sample size) deliberately enriched the sample with redheads:
---
Notably, the frequency of red hair color in our study population is higher than expected in the general Polish population because of an enrichment of red hair colored individuals in the sampling process. This was done to demonstrate prediction accuracy of red hair, similar to other hair color, as red hair normally is relatively rare in the Polish population.
---

Also, both papers refer to the samples as having been taken in southern Poland--probably near Kraków, where the ethics policies were approved.

Apparently, neither study had the specific goal of randomly sampling hair color across the entire Polish population.

Yggdrasil
02-04-2014, 11:55 AM
I was on holliday in Ireland a couple of years back and was at the time struck by how dark the colour of people´s hair was. A lot of people had almost black hair. I found the red haired individuals to be particularly "luminous" in a crowd of dark heads, whereas in Norway redheads tend to blend in more with the blond, medium blond and brown shades. I expect that would be the case in Poland aswell.

alan
02-04-2014, 05:36 PM
The fact that Ireland is pretty low on blond hair but has one of the highest red hair counts in the world is interesting. It shows that red hair has a different history and we shouldnt ever bundle red and blonde in together as 'light' as 19th century researchers tended to do. Red seems to peak the further north-west you go in Europe while blonde peaks towards the north-east. In the isles red hair peaks among the populations who also have the highest dark hair counts like the Irish, highland Scots and Welsh. Red hair is much less common in the blonder haired parts of Britain like SE England. In the isles anyway its clear that red hair is very ancient as it peaks in the most remote areas. Blond hair levels do seem to creep up in the isles in areas more close to the mainstream of flow from the north continent and in the more historically Germanic part of the isles.

It seems that the pre-Germanic population of the isles were a mostly mix of brunnetes and redheads. I often hear the rather silly idea that the reds and the darks represent different waves but in fact 40% of the Irish population carry at least one of the MC1R gene for red hair (two are needed to produce a clear red). In Ireland anyway dark haired people often have very fair skin of the sort you normally associate with redheads - they are probably the people who carry one red hair marker rather than the two needed to produce a redhead. I would say the numbers of redheads has probably been declining for millenia as its a recessive trait that will tend to remain strongest in isolated populations and decline as populations are more mobile. I am pretty sure the primary reason for the MCR1 selection was very fair skin which only needs one copy and redheads are just a case of where MC1R carriers meet.


I was on holliday in Ireland a couple of years back and was at the time struck by how dark the colour of people´s hair was. A lot of people had almost black hair. I found the red haired individuals to be particularly "luminous" in a crowd of dark heads, whereas in Norway redheads tend to blend in more with the blond, medium blond and brown shades. I expect that would be the case in Poland aswell.

rossa
02-04-2014, 05:49 PM
What determines brown eyes being passed on? And also with green eyes, are they some kind of in between when parents have different colored eyes? I ask as in my immediate, family four of us (inculding me) have brown eyes and four have regular blue eyes while my wives family have regular blue eyes however my two daughters have a greenish grey eye color.

alan
02-04-2014, 06:27 PM
I had head that blue eyes are less likely to be passed on unless three of the grandparents have them. So, they are doomed to reduce in a population over time unless they are overwhelmingly common. I understand that blue eyes in the states has dramatically fallen over a few generations. Anyway this is a calculator for likely eye colour of offspring - you need to know all four of the grandparents eye colours to make us of it

http://genetics.thetech.org/online-exhibits/what-color-eyes-will-your-children-have


What determines brown eyes being passed on? And also with green eyes, are they some kind of in between when parents have different colored eyes? I ask as in my immediate, family four of us (inculding me) have brown eyes and four have regular blue eyes while my wives family have regular blue eyes however my two daughters have a greenish grey eye color.

rossa
02-04-2014, 07:24 PM
That's actually quite accurate for me as the results predict green.

avalon
02-04-2014, 08:36 PM
This is just a personal view. I traveled through Poland from the south border to the Baltic for several weeks a number of years back and in general I thought their hair colour is in the same middling zone as isles folks-average probably mid brown and mousey was common (the latter much more so than in Ireland) but adult blonde hair didnt seem common at all. The main difference between poles and Irish is Poles seem very much dominated by ash shades of brown and mousey while the Irish have a richer darker brown, very often with a reddish tint breaking through and in general the Irish seem to have much more extremes of hair colour ranging from near-Black to bright yellow or red while poles are often in the mousey bracket. As for redheads, I barely saw a single Pole with red hair except right at the southern border I saw a few. Same in the Baltic ex-USSR states. I saw no redheads until Estonia and I think even they were Finns over for the cheap beer. When it comes to red shades there is no comparison in my experience - its vastly more common among the Irish and British in my experience. Eyes wise they were similar to the Irish in that light predominated and lighter eyed than the English. Skin tone wise they were more monotone, better at tanning by a long chalk than the Irish. Irish tend to have skin that is much more pale, often with a rosey cheeks and light freckles when young. Height wise Poles seemed middling and similar to the Irish but with the odd giant. Face wise, both the men and women seem dominated by the sort of soft rounded face structure and relatively small heads in Poland, Irish (men, not so much women) can be more angular and have far larger heads. The Polish women are very pretty and more delicately featured than many western Europeans - probably some of the best looking women in Europe.

My personal experience of Poles that I have met in the UK is that they are generally lighter haired than Brits and Irish and I can't ever remember a red haired Pole!

Agree about the Polish women!!

- - - Updated - - -


What determines brown eyes being passed on? And also with green eyes, are they some kind of in between when parents have different colored eyes? I ask as in my immediate, family four of us (inculding me) have brown eyes and four have regular blue eyes while my wives family have regular blue eyes however my two daughters have a greenish grey eye color.

I'm no expert but I think the genetics of eye colour is very complex. In fact, I think I read an article once that said it was more complicated than people think. In my own case, I have brown eyes, my wife has a sort of greeny-hazel and one of our children has blue eyes which surprised us both even though there are two blue eyed grandparents.

And eye colour isn't just a case of blue, green or brown because there are varying intermediate shades such as browny-hazel, greeny-hazel, lightish brown, blue-grey, etc, to complicate matters.

Táltos
02-05-2014, 04:25 AM
Very interesting. Years ago when I was taking care of an older woman in the hospital she asked me what my ancestry was. When she learned that I had some Polish heritage she told me about when she was a model in her younger years. She said everyone in the business back then would lie and say they were Polish because they were sought after for their beauty by modeling agencies.

On another note. One of my best friends is 100% Irish she has dark hair and dark eyes. It was funny when we used to go out she would get mistaken for an Italian, and I would get mistaken for an American Indian or Mexican, and I have the Italian heritage! She has very pale skin and definitely has to watch so she does not burn in the sun, while I can bask with no issue. The head size comment also resonated. I always say my husband got the large Irish head, while mine is the little pin headed one!

vettor
02-05-2014, 04:54 AM
That's actually quite accurate for me as the results predict green.

There are two different types of melanin, the pigment that allows skin to tan and that makes brown eyes brown. There is a dark, black melanin and a yellow melanin. An eye without melanin, either black or yellow will be blue eyes. Green eyes are caused by low levels of black melanin and higher levels of the yellow melanin.

Babies with green eyes are born with blue or gray eyes, just like other Caucasian babies. Green eyes do not appear immediately and may take several months to appear. The most dramatic changes to a baby's eye color will typically occur sometime after 6 months of age, but can continue to change for several years.
Where do green eyes come from?

Green eyes have been around for thousands of years. They were present in Siberia during the Bronze Age. This color is most common in Europe, or in people of European descent. In some European countries green eyes are more common than brown. In Iceland it is said that 80% of people have blue or green eyes. Green eyes are more common in Icelandic females than in males. One study found that 17% of the women studied had green eyes compared to only 8% of the males. Similar results were found in a Dutch study. Green eyes are very rare in males worldwide.

Europeans with green eyes generally come from Celtic or German ancestry, although Hungarians have the highest percentage today at 20%.


my ancestry
father =green mother = hazel ..........75% green will result.........I am green
father = green mother = blue ...........90% blue will result ..............both sons are blue
father =green mother= brown .........50% result, either way
I did have all the breakdown via percentages...i will check if I can find it

alan
02-05-2014, 06:13 AM
Yes that calculator does seem to work. A few people I know have tried it and it has worked every time. However, it crucial that grandparents eye colour is known or it cannot be used.


That's actually quite accurate for me as the results predict green.

dp
03-04-2015, 05:50 PM
There are two different types of melanin, the pigment that allows skin to tan and that makes brown eyes brown. There is a dark, black melanin and a yellow melanin. An eye without melanin, either black or yellow will be blue eyes. Green eyes are caused by low levels of black melanin and higher levels of the yellow melanin.

Babies with green eyes are born with blue or gray eyes, just like other Caucasian babies. Green eyes do not appear immediately and may take several months to appear. The most dramatic changes to a baby's eye color will typically occur sometime after 6 months of age, but can continue to change for several years.
Where do green eyes come from?

Green eyes have been around for thousands of years. They were present in Siberia during the Bronze Age. This color is most common in Europe, or in people of European descent. In some European countries green eyes are more common than brown. In Iceland it is said that 80% of people have blue or green eyes. Green eyes are more common in Icelandic females than in males. One study found that 17% of the women studied had green eyes compared to only 8% of the males. Similar results were found in a Dutch study. Green eyes are very rare in males worldwide.

Europeans with green eyes generally come from Celtic or German ancestry, although Hungarians have the highest percentage today at 20%.


my ancestry
father =green mother = hazel ..........75% green will result.........I am green
father = green mother = blue ...........90% blue will result ..............both sons are blue
father =green mother= brown .........50% result, either way
I did have all the breakdown via percentages...i will check if I can find it

Dear Vettor,
thanks for the info. I have a greenish hazel eye, but I swear they were blue when I was born. I had wondered about where they came from as my mom's are brown and dad's were blue. GEDmatch eye color util predicts Green eyes for a cousin --with a MRCA of my paternal great-grandfather. This mutual ancestor was recorded as having gray eyes.
yours,
dp :-)

vettor
03-04-2015, 06:05 PM
Dear Vettor,
thanks for the info. I have a greenish hazel eye, but I swear they were blue when I was born. I had wondered about where they came from as my mom's are brown and dad's were blue. GEDmatch eye color util predicts Green eyes for a cousin --with a MRCA of my paternal great-grandfather. This mutual ancestor was recorded as having gray eyes.
yours,
dp :-)

majority of caucasian children are born blue.............they change inside 6 weeks of birth.

since I am recently been made an uncle ( via marriage ) I am waiting to see my brother in law child, a girl , finalised eye colour. her mother is taiwanese ...........currently the girl has blue eyes. ......I will let you know

Táltos
03-04-2015, 07:25 PM
Dear Vettor,
thanks for the info. I have a greenish hazel eye, but I swear they were blue when I was born. I had wondered about where they came from as my mom's are brown and dad's were blue. GEDmatch eye color util predicts Green eyes for a cousin --with a MRCA of my paternal great-grandfather. This mutual ancestor was recorded as having gray eyes.
yours,
dp :-)

David,
You probably were born with blue eyes. My daughter had bright blue eyes when she was born that changed after about two months to hazel. vettor is right that a lot of children are born with blue eyes. Honestly though I'm not sure if that is just limited to caucasians. My parents always used to tell me that that I was born with black eyes. They thought that was neat because they said babies are always born with blue eyes. My eyes remain to be very dark.

Gray Fox
03-04-2015, 09:46 PM
My eye color ancestry...

Father- pale blue eyes, Mother- green eyes
Paternal Grandfather- pale blue eyes, Paternal Grandmother- green eyes
Maternal Grandfather- brown eyes, Maternal Grandmother- blue eyes

My eye color is medium blue with gray around the pupils (central heterochromia).

SwampThing27
03-05-2015, 12:29 AM
David,
You probably were born with blue eyes. My daughter had bright blue eyes when she was born that changed after about two months to hazel. vettor is right that a lot of children are born with blue eyes. Honestly though I'm not sure if that is just limited to caucasians. My parents always used to tell me that that I was born with black eyes. They thought that was neat because they said babies are always born with blue eyes. My eyes remain to be very dark.

I also wasn't born with the typical blue eyes, but more of a hazel/light brown (it says hazel on the paperwork). My younger brother, who's eyes now look darker than mine, was born with blue eyes though. He also never had blonde hair like I did as a baby, but now we both have dark brown hair.

Stephen1986
03-05-2015, 12:42 AM
My eyes are dark blue but with green around the middle, whilst my brother has lighter blue eyes. We both have a 72% chance of blue eyes, 27% chance of green eyes and 1% chance of brown eyes according to 23andMe. Our parents had blue eyes, as did our maternal grandfather, I think my other three grandparents also did but can't be sure.

My siblings were born with white blonde hair that darkened to various shades of medium to dark brown hair, whilst I was born with black hair that lightened to medium brown before darkening to dark brown. Our mother had blonde hair as a young child but black hair as an adult, whilst my father had dark brown hair when he was younger which is now going grey.

RazorBlade
05-31-2015, 06:27 AM
I was on holliday in Ireland a couple of years back and was at the time struck by how dark the colour of people´s hair was. A lot of people had almost black hair. I found the red haired individuals to be particularly "luminous" in a crowd of dark heads, whereas in Norway redheads tend to blend in more with the blond, medium blond and brown shades. I expect that would be the case in Poland aswell.

Sorry for bumping this old thread, I have noticed exactly the same, but with the British. I think for some odd reason people tend to assume both the Irish and British Islanders to be Blonder than they really are. Dark Brown hair is very common in both countries... and some of those hairs look nearly completly black, I have been in crowds of Irish and British Islanders were 80% of the people had darkbrown hair.

Fair hair and specially blonde is much commoner among scandinavians and continental germanics (Dutch, germans, etc) where the crowd seems to be usually dominated by blondes and even the brown haired people have clear traces of blondism (golden brown/lightbrown/sandy brown)