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View Full Version : Are Papuans more related to Indians/South-Asians.... or more to Southeast Asians?



iloko
08-03-2020, 02:39 AM
Please provide your evidence/reasonings/etc based on your current knowledge......

JerryS.
08-03-2020, 02:44 AM
I have absolutely no known ancestry even an inkling of it from Papua New Guinea, but I get a trace of it with several calculators..... that and S. Asian (Bengali). Maybe an ancient bring back from Marco Polo's travels or something....

thejkhan
08-03-2020, 03:43 AM
A little closer to South Asians.

38865

ThaYamamoto
08-04-2020, 03:51 PM
A little closer to South Asians.

38865

Add Paniya,Jarawa and the 100bp Andamanese sample as well?

iloko
08-14-2020, 02:51 AM
I wonder how the Hòabìnhian hunter gatherers of Southeast Asia fit into this picture: https://www.sciencealert.com/8-000-year-old-remains-surprising-story-ancestry-southeast-asia-ho-abi-nhian-agriculture-migration-china

witness
12-01-2020, 09:47 PM
A little closer to South Asians.

38865

I wonder how true that is.Papuans and Aboriginals both appear to cluster genetically with East Eurasians,and Australoids historically have intermixed with Southeast Asians alot more than South Asians historically.This explains the existence of Oceania itself and whole populations like Polynesians,Micronesians,and Wallaceans.I would barely even count South Indians and Sri Lankans as actually Australoid admixed unlike the former groups.

AMS212
01-31-2021, 06:46 PM
AASI is also East Eurasian.

Bbgum
02-02-2021, 01:56 AM
I wonder how true that is.Papuans and Aboriginals both appear to cluster genetically with East Eurasians,and Australoids historically have intermixed with Southeast Asians alot more than South Asians historically.This explains the existence of Oceania itself and whole populations like Polynesians,Micronesians,and Wallaceans.I would barely even count South Indians and Sri Lankans as actually Australoid admixed unlike the former groups.

East eurasians branch off into northern (east asian) and southern (australoid). These two are very distantly related to each other and not close at all. Indians have direct contribution from the southern (australoid). And if you look at any pca you can see papuans/melanesians form a point at the bottom away from east asians, and indians are on a cline directly toward them. So there is a real, direct connection

Bbgum
02-02-2021, 02:16 AM
AASI is also East Eurasian.

Yup onge, aasi, papuans, hoabhinians are all australoid and share a common root, they're like cousins

theplayer
02-05-2021, 11:41 AM
pop1 pop2 pop3 pop4 est se z p.value
1 Mbu Pap Iru Cam 0.0033 0.00041 7.91 2.5246e-15
2 Mbu Pap Iru Han 0.0035 0.0004 8.75 < 2.22e-16
3 Mbu Pap Iru ONG 0.0045 0.00043 10.43 < 2.22e-16

Papuans are more related to even Han than some of the most AASI South Indians which isn't surprising since both East Asians and Papuans are >95% East Eurasian/ENA while Irula has significant West Eurasian ancestry as well.


pop1 pop2 pop3 pop4 est se z p.value
1 Mbu ONG Pap Han 0.0022 0.00045 4.84 1.3013e-06
2 Mbu Pap ONG Han -0.00094 0.00042 -2.26 0.023698


I don't see any reason to believe that AASI/Onge/Australasian populations all come from one clade to the exclusion of East Asians?
I think there must be some more complex history of admixture especially when you also add ancient populations like Tianyuan.
See for example the Hoabinhian paper(https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/278374v1.full) where East Asians are modelled as a mixture of something related to Onge(3/4) and something related to Tianyuan(1/4).
IIRC I've also seen the proportions reversed(IE East Asian being mostly Tianyuan-like).

Unfortunately we don't have any AASI-samples but my guess would be that they were a mix of Onge/Hoabinhian-related and something "even more indigenous" probably with lots of substructure as well over the Indian subcontinent.
But perhaps someone with more knowledge could correct me.

theplayer
02-05-2021, 12:14 PM
East eurasians branch off into northern (east asian) and southern (australoid). These two are very distantly related to each other and not close at all. Indians have direct contribution from the southern (australoid). And if you look at any pca you can see papuans/melanesians form a point at the bottom away from east asians, and indians are on a cline directly toward them. So there is a real, direct connection

Also I don't think Onge/Hoabinhian/Australasians/AASI(or well, where the cline leads to) plotting close together necessarily means they are closely related.
I would guess it has more to do with genetic drift and a bottleneck of East Asians(including Native Americans, who later had a big bottleneck of their own):

1. Tianyuan, which is closer to East Asians than to Onge, also plots right between Papuans and Onge, probably since he lived before this bottleneck in East Asians.
2. Africans with no eurasian admixture all bunch up in one corner of a global PCA, despite some being very divergent, showing that a global PCA is dominated by genetic drift.

So all of these southern ENA groups doesn't have to form a clade with respect to East Asians, it could just be that East Asians "recently"(probably still 30kya or something) had a bottleneck and that explains why Tianyuan/Hoabinhian/Onge/Papuan/Australian/"Simulated-AASI" etc all plot together

But again someone please correct me if I am wrong, which I absolutely could be.

witness
02-06-2021, 03:56 AM
pop1 pop2 pop3 pop4 est se z p.value
1 Mbu Pap Iru Cam 0.0033 0.00041 7.91 2.5246e-15
2 Mbu Pap Iru Han 0.0035 0.0004 8.75 < 2.22e-16
3 Mbu Pap Iru ONG 0.0045 0.00043 10.43 < 2.22e-16

Papuans are more related to even Han than some of the most AASI South Indians which isn't surprising since both East Asians and Papuans are >95% East Eurasian/ENA while Irula has significant West Eurasian ancestry as well.


pop1 pop2 pop3 pop4 est se z p.value
1 Mbu ONG Pap Han 0.0022 0.00045 4.84 1.3013e-06
2 Mbu Pap ONG Han -0.00094 0.00042 -2.26 0.023698


I don't see any reason to believe that AASI/Onge/Australasian populations all come from one clade to the exclusion of East Asians?
I think there must be some more complex history of admixture especially when you also add ancient populations like Tianyuan.
See for example the Hoabinhian paper(https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/278374v1.full) where East Asians are modelled as a mixture of something related to Onge(3/4) and something related to Tianyuan(1/4).
IIRC I've also seen the proportions reversed(IE East Asian being mostly Tianyuan-like).

Unfortunately we don't have any AASI-samples but my guess would be that they were a mix of Onge/Hoabinhian-related and something "even more indigenous" probably with lots of substructure as well over the Indian subcontinent.
But perhaps someone with more knowledge could correct me.

Perhaps it is Denisovan admixture or even other local ancient Hominids around the area?

parasar
03-12-2021, 04:37 AM
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/advances/7/2/eabc4587/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

Wes345
04-02-2021, 11:27 AM
More to Southeast Asians.

Encik Ahmad
01-10-2022, 03:24 PM
Hi,

I am a Malay, born in Penang, Malaysia and lived in Singapore.

I did a DNA test with LivingDNA, and my Y-DNA haplogroup is M1. I was informed it is mostly found in Papuan.

I guess more related to Austronesian.

ferraribluerims
03-05-2022, 08:11 PM
Papuans are closer to tribal South Asians.

48659

pmokeefe
03-05-2022, 08:59 PM
Episodes of diversification and isolation in Island Southeast Asian and Near Oceanian male lineages (https://academic.oup.com/mbe/advance-article/doi/10.1093/molbev/msac045/6539761)
Published: 28 February 2022

Abstract
Island Southeast Asia and Oceania host one of the world’s richest assemblages of human phenotypic, linguistic and cultural diversity. Despite this, the region’s male genetic lineages are globally among the last to remain unresolved. We compiled ∼9.7 Mb of Y chromosome sequence from a diverse sample of over 380 men from this region, including 152 first reported here. The granularity of this dataset allows us to fully resolve and date the regional Y chromosome phylogeny. This new high-resolution tree confirms two main population bursts: multiple rapid diversifications following the region’s initial settlement ∼50 kya, and extensive expansions <6 kya. Notably, ∼40-25 kya the deep rooting local lineages of C-M130, M-P256, and S-B254 show almost no further branching events in Island Southeast Asia, New Guinea and Australia, matching a similar pause in diversification seen in maternal mitochondrial DNA lineages. The main local lineages start diversifying ∼25 kya, at the time of the Last Glacial Maximum. This improved Y chromosome topology highlights localized events with important historical implications, including pre-Holocene contact between Mainland and Island Southeast Asia, potential interactions between Australia and the Papuan world, and a sustained period of diversification following the flooding of the ancient Sunda and Sahul continents as the insular landscape observed today formed. The high-resolution phylogeny of the Y chromosome presented here thus enables a detailed exploration of past isolation, interaction and change in one of the world’s least understood regions.

More recent papers from the region:
Genome of a middle Holocene hunter-gatherer from Wallacea (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03823-6) (2021)

Mitogenomes Reveal Two Major Influxes of Papuan Ancestry across Wallacea Following the Last Glacial Maximum and Austronesian Contact (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34202821/) (2021)

Widespread Denisovan ancestry in Island Southeast Asia but no evidence of substantial super-archaic hominin admixture (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-021-01408-0) (2021)

Philippine Ayta possess the highest level of Denisovan ancestry in the world (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982221009775) (2021)

Papua New Guinean Genomes Reveal the Complex Settlement of North Sahul (https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/38/11/5107/6349182) (2021)

Genomic insights into population history and biological adaptation in Oceania (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03236-5?sid=h63Nuu) (2021)

Papuan mitochondrial genomes and the settlement of Sahul (https://www.nature.com/articles/s10038-020-0781-3) (2020)

Multiple Deeply Divergent Denisovan Ancestries in Papuans (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30981557/) (2019)