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JMcB
08-14-2020, 12:02 AM
For those who may have missed it, Hunter Provyn & Thomas Krahn (of YSEQ) have released a new YDNA Heatmap. It’s based on YFull’s tree, so keep that in mind when entering your information. For example: Z140


Y Heatmap
A Relative Frequency Map for Y Haplogroups
Developed by Hunter Provyn and Thomas Krahn


https://phylogeographer.com/scripts/heatmap.php?fbclid=IwAR3zsvaYSFcCD09JQ-KQE0oPdZAtaiMu4BFDP6Ns7gZUg8OnStPE9l4S19s


38932

Luso
08-14-2020, 01:00 AM
Yeah, since it is based on YSEQ data and the majority of Iberian clade R1b testers are from the Iberian Islands I get this:



38938

RCO
08-14-2020, 01:25 AM
My J1 clade in NW Iberia - J1-FGC6035 and in N Iran

38942

38943

Dewsloth
08-14-2020, 01:49 AM
So what do you think? This is P312>DF19>>R-Z17112.
Probably not Gaul...

38948

digital_noise
08-14-2020, 03:20 AM
Mine
38953

firemonkey
08-14-2020, 12:14 PM
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/y126/labile/Screenshot_2020_08_12_https_phylogeographer_com_E_ Z5018.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/y126/labile/Screenshot_2020_08_12_https_phylogeographer_com_E_ L17.png

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/y126/labile/Screenshot_2020_08_12_https_phylogeographer_com_E_ Y18336.png

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/y126/labile/Screenshot_2020_08_12_https_phylogeographer_com_E_ Z16664.png


https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/y126/labile/Screenshot_2020_08_12_https_phylogeographer_com_E_ Y45878.png

E-Z5018
E-L17
E-Y18336
E-Z16664
E-Y45878

https://phylogeographer.com/scripts/heatmap.php?fbclid=IwAR3ceiLlJ9BY5nSfjWnP65rxX9nou ZOUGPGMPti8qG1-xcb9zNLxtW7OPwo

JMcB
08-14-2020, 02:02 PM
So what do you think? This is P312>DF19>>R-Z17112.
Probably not Gaul...

38948

Of course, it all depends on the data. If your area of YFull's tree is fairly well represented than it’s probably a decent approximation. If not, not so much. Plus, there’s so much data that still missing, even if your branch is well represented. For example, there are probably more I1s in Germany than anywhere else. Yet Germany is woefully under represented, when it comes to testing. Likewise, with France and the Low Countries. So all of that data is missing. As for R1b, I can’t speak but from what I’ve heard, many of them haven’t uploaded to YFull because they’ve had Alex & Iain to do their analysis. So that has to be taken into consideration.

Darko
08-14-2020, 02:33 PM
My clade : R-YP1272.
38965

Trelvern
08-14-2020, 03:01 PM
S1911 (BY650 doesn't exist)

38972

DF 98

38974

Dewsloth
08-14-2020, 03:09 PM
Of course, it all depends on the data. If your area of YFull's tree is fairly well represented than it’s probably a decent approximation. If not, not so much. Plus, there’s so much data that still missing, even if your branch is well represented. For example, there are probably more I1s in Germany than anywhere else. Yet Germany is woefully under represented, when it comes to testing. Likewise, with France and the Low Countries. So all of that data is missing. As for R1b, I can’t speak but from what I’ve heard, many of them haven’t uploaded to YFull because they’ve had Alex & Iain to do their analysis. So that has to be taken into consideration.

Yeah, there are only about 900 DF19s in the FTDNA blocktree, 477 members in the DF19 Group, and far, far fewer in the Big Tree and Yfull.
It's frustrating in that one of my closest matches is a Dutch kit only on Yfull (all my other matches are German) and only answered one mesage then went dark.

Here's DF88. It adds Norway to the Z17112 group's Germany/Sweden/Danelaw displayed above.
DF88 is the parent of 2/3 or 3/4 of surviving DF19 subclades (582 out of 931 people in Blocktree), and is old enough to be Beaker-era:
38973

jstephan
08-14-2020, 03:33 PM
Mine (I-Y13432) appears concentrated in Western France here with another spot in central Germany !

Snp Tracker was placing my mutation in Britain during the Bronze age.

For improvements, would be good to add the number of samples it is based on, and maybe an estimated period for the mutation.

38975

38976

Riverman
08-14-2020, 04:33 PM
I think two aspects should get more weight: Number of samples, especially from the same region, but not same family as much, as well as the position on the tree, like a higher weight for the upstream root clades. Like it is right now, if by chance someone tested in a region with low general rates, this produces an hotspot immediately which is not necessarily justified. And if a couple of people from one family test, especially again from a region with low testing rates, this creates an absolute hotspot even for many levels above it.
One can regulate the heatmap down, which produces more realistic results, but right now it just gives wrong impressions to people, which might think that the hot zones are automatically the place of origin even. In fact one single individual can produce a hotspot for undertested regions and much more samples, even from different families and close by regions like from Britain and Germany get almost no coloration. This is misleading.

JMcB
08-14-2020, 06:01 PM
You can read about their methodology here:

https://phylogeographer.com/frequency-heatmaps-methodology/

Finn
08-14-2020, 06:31 PM
Of course, it all depends on the data. If your area of YFull's tree is fairly well represented than it’s probably a decent approximation. If not, not so much. Plus, there’s so much data that still missing, even if your branch is well represented. For example, there are probably more I1s in Germany than anywhere else. Yet Germany is woefully under represented, when it comes to testing. Likewise, with France and the Low Countries. So all of that data is missing. As for R1b, I can’t speak but from what I’ve heard, many of them haven’t uploaded to YFull because they’ve had Alex & Iain to do their analysis. So that has to be taken into consideration.

Absolutely right JMcB it did the one for 'my' E-V22 this is probably rooted in Egypt but no highlights in Egypt because nearly no one has full gnome research there, in the Emirates....much of them. And I saw an outlier in....China....silk route?
38981

MitchellSince1893
08-14-2020, 07:00 PM
If you put Great Britain down as paternal line origin, as I did (it’s probably English but it might be Welsh, Scottish, or Irish for all I know) it plots you in Scotland. That threw me off, because I wasn’t aware of any Scottish samples on my current terminal branch.

Riverman
08-14-2020, 08:00 PM
Absolutely right JMcB it did the one for 'my' E-V22 this is probably rooted in Egypt but no highlights in Egypt because nearly no one has full gnome research there, in the Emirates....much of them. And I saw an outlier in....China....silk route?
38981

There are various options for haplogroup E to enter China, but especially in the North the primary source are steppe people. For sure for E-V13, but also for others. The next best option is indeed Silk route and Muslims.

I really think the approach sounds nice at first, but doesn't work out that well. Whenever I want to get a better picture for a haplogroup, I turn the effect down which multiplies the relative sample presence. I still love the tool because it just sums up the current samples from YFull and their geographical distribution.

It just makes no sense if single samples make up whole undeserved hotspots. I thought it might be working better for major haplogroups like R1b, but Luso has just proven the opposite. Its really bad if you don't even get any highlight for 10 samples from Britain, but a big highlight for let's say Armenia, because of a single sample from there and the different sampling rate.

Alain
08-14-2020, 08:04 PM
38982

Here is my paternal line and its current range R1a Y33

JMcB
08-15-2020, 02:26 PM
There are various options for haplogroup E to enter China, but especially in the North the primary source are steppe people. For sure for E-V13, but also for others. The next best option is indeed Silk route and Muslims.

I really think the approach sounds nice at first, but doesn't work out that well. Whenever I want to get a better picture for a haplogroup, I turn the effect down which multiplies the relative sample presence. I still love the tool because it just sums up the current samples from YFull and their geographical distribution.

It just makes no sense if single samples make up whole undeserved hotspots. I thought it might be working better for major haplogroups like R1b, but Luso has just proven the opposite. Its really bad if you don't even get any highlight for 10 samples from Britain, but a big highlight for let's say Armenia, because of a single sample from there and the different sampling rate.

Just for the record, this is all they are claiming it does. They specifically say, it has nothing to do with origins of the haplogroups entered and just represents the modern distribution of the samples, as found at YFull. Plus, whatever ancient samples they have in their tree.

Unfortunately, most of the discussion about the Heatmap took place on their Facebook pages and I can’t reproduce them all here.

LePrieur
08-15-2020, 03:12 PM
https://i.postimg.cc/0jXT5hTB/yseqphylo.png

Adamm
08-15-2020, 04:23 PM
https://i.imgur.com/LZ0jtwg.png

Shishman
08-15-2020, 07:17 PM
38994

Andour
08-15-2020, 07:27 PM
R-S14469, aka R-DF103, aka FGC4183

The heatmap is based on only 13 samples : Italy 3 (incl. Sardinia 1), Germany 1, Czechia 1, Poland 3, Sweden 1, England 1, Scotland 3. I wish there were a few more.

https://i.imgur.com/KNkJTpf.png

For comparison, here is the R-DF103 FTDNA sample map.

https://i.imgur.com/S3Op86k.png

Agamemnon
08-15-2020, 09:25 PM
J1-YSC234:

https://i.imgur.com/mggMdPE.png


J1-Y3081:

https://i.imgur.com/ijf9Znu.png


J1-Z18271:

https://i.imgur.com/1oRlVog.png

jstephan
08-15-2020, 11:57 PM
Just for the record, this is all they are claiming it does. They specifically say, it has nothing to do with origins of the haplogroups entered and just represents the modern distribution of the samples, as found at YFull. Plus, whatever ancient samples they have in their tree.

Unfortunately, most of the discussion about the Heatmap took place on their Facebook pages and I can’t reproduce them all here.

The ideal would be a huge world scale study based on haplogroups using academic samples from each part of the world, then these maps could become very interesting, because even here we don't know if the samples are really academic.

ArmandoR1b
08-16-2020, 01:48 AM
The ideal would be a huge world scale study based on haplogroups using academic samples from each part of the world, then these maps could become very interesting, because even here we don't know if the samples are really academic.

Academic as well as non-academic samples are used. I can tell by using the following method -

1. Entering a rare SNP and getting the total number of samples listed in the heatmap
2. Clicking on the link from the heatmap to YFull
3. Looking at the number of academic samples at YFull using the prefix of the sample id. If it starts with YF it is not an academic sample. You can also see which are academic samples by going to https://www.yfull.com/paper/list/ and clicking on samples of each study.

The size of academic samples is especially small so if the site restricted the database to academic samples it would be very basic. I agree that is would be really nice to see a huge Next Generation Sequencing study of at least 1000 samples per region/state/province of each country. No one wants to spend that kind of money though.

Even without restricting the database to just academic samples it is still severely lacking especially when one sees examples such as J-FGC6031 which is about 5200 years old yet only has 5 samples. Not a single one of those is an academic sample. A huge study would alleviate that problem.

ArmandoR1b
08-16-2020, 01:54 AM
R-S14469, aka R-DF103, aka FGC4183

The heatmap is based on only 13 samples : Italy 3 (incl. Sardinia 1), Germany 1, Czechia 1, Poland 3, Sweden 1, England 1, Scotland 3. I wish there were a few more.



Based on the age of the SNP the small size is most likely due to the lack of popularity of NGS testing in continental Europe.

Andour
08-16-2020, 09:59 AM
R-L2

https://i.imgur.com/0tNWMWZ.png

Andour
08-16-2020, 10:00 AM
R-U152

https://i.imgur.com/26er9qQ.png

Andour
08-16-2020, 10:09 AM
R-L21

https://i.imgur.com/cXa3xNz.png

Andour
08-16-2020, 10:10 AM
R-DF27

https://i.imgur.com/Bwj3fKD.png

cheshire
08-16-2020, 10:15 AM
this is the most specific I could get for my Y
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/667098601671098390/744499070562730044/image0.png

Andour
08-16-2020, 10:19 AM
this is the most specific I could get for my Y
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/667098601671098390/744499070562730044/image0.png

What subclade is it? The search box was cut off when the image was captured. Some subclade of I1, I presume?

SUPREEEEEME
08-16-2020, 10:22 AM
39015

vs Distribution map:

39016

cheshire
08-16-2020, 10:22 AM
What subclade is it? The search box was cut off when the image was captured. Some subclade of I1, I presume?

I-L22

Dewsloth
08-16-2020, 02:29 PM
The ideal would be a huge world scale study based on haplogroups using academic samples from each part of the world, then these maps could become very interesting, because even here we don't know if the samples are really academic.

For DF19, there are only 3 “ancient” academic samples I know of. Two were found at latitudes north of Berlin (6Drif23 in York and VK333 in Sweden) and one was found in Alaric-era Rome but autosomally looks Norwegian/Saxon (RMPR31).

There’s a desperate need for more samples.

Andour
08-16-2020, 02:34 PM
R1a-Z93

https://i.imgur.com/3IeyVvQ.png

Andour
08-16-2020, 02:35 PM
R1a-Z92

https://i.imgur.com/lc5D8cY.png

Andour
08-16-2020, 02:36 PM
R1a-Z283

https://i.imgur.com/ahmSTNP.png

Andour
08-16-2020, 02:38 PM
R1a-Z284

https://i.imgur.com/vbk9x3D.png

Andour
08-16-2020, 02:39 PM
R1a-M458

https://i.imgur.com/MaPK3Xu.png

jstephan
08-16-2020, 03:12 PM
For DF19, there are only 3 “ancient” academic samples I know of. Two were found at latitudes north of Berlin (6Drif23 in York and VK333 in Sweden) and one was found in Alaric-era Rome but autosomally looks Norwegian/Saxon (RMPR31).

There’s a desperate need for more samples.

But we could also consider academic samples with at least their great paternal grand father from the location they are associated to for paternal haplogroups. This would already give a good overview, at least for countries where population movements have been low over the last centuries. This is is why the only way to give a real sense to these maps would be a proper study, else they will remain very approximate. Then, by comparing the ancient and modern distribution of each subclade, it would become very informative.

Andour
08-16-2020, 03:52 PM
Some branches of haplogroup Q:

Q-L804
https://i.imgur.com/4cazhkN.png

Q-L527
https://i.imgur.com/lBwIiJa.png

Q-L330
https://i.imgur.com/jGGXVxf.png

Q-F5005
https://i.imgur.com/jR2uQ9J.png

Q-L715
https://i.imgur.com/73TRtHd.png

Q-M120
https://i.imgur.com/XkExJcv.png

Q-M3
https://i.imgur.com/jMl9bOy.png

Agamemnon
08-16-2020, 04:19 PM
Some of the Jewish-related branches...

Q1b-Y2209:

https://i.imgur.com/isnoMzV.png


E1a-Z17699:

https://i.imgur.com/rFO0zLt.png


J2a-L210:

https://i.imgur.com/lmlV6N4.png


E1b-Y6926:

https://i.imgur.com/d5W6SSm.png


E1b-PF2025:

https://i.imgur.com/Zy1NHu4.png


R1a-CTS6:

https://i.imgur.com/FgEUJmR.png


J1-L816:

https://i.imgur.com/3E9Jry7.png

JMcB
08-16-2020, 05:28 PM
Following my branches down. With YFull’s dating for my individual sample.

1480 BC
39026

1330 BC
39027

15 BC
39028

620 AD
39029

1810 AD
39030

Dewsloth
08-21-2020, 05:51 PM
Maternal grandfather. J2a1 (M47>Y8531)

39094


Edit: About 3,000 years old.

ph2ter
12-11-2020, 02:17 PM
My version of I1 heatmap:

https://i.imgur.com/6vcZ2Rx.png

ph2ter
12-11-2020, 02:19 PM
https://i.imgur.com/5Lf92fm.png
https://i.imgur.com/0bHA3Z9.png
https://i.imgur.com/U0Y3GRO.png

Riverman
12-11-2020, 02:24 PM
R1b-U152 looks on your heatmap like a straighforward La Tene-Celtic marker to me, superficially at least and R1b-U106 like Jastorf-Germanic. Just going by the maps...

ph2ter
12-11-2020, 02:37 PM
https://i.imgur.com/6lDLxui.png

ph2ter
12-11-2020, 02:38 PM
R1b-U152 looks on your heatmap like a straighforward La Tene-Celtic marker to me, superficially at least and R1b-U106 like Jastorf-Germanic. Just going by the maps...
I1 looks strongly Germanic, but R1b not.

Riverman
12-11-2020, 03:04 PM
I1 looks strongly Germanic, but R1b not.

Going by that distribution, which might not be representative of the ancient one, it looks like being between Jastorf Germanic and the intermediate Central German and Nordwestblock-group which wasn't integrated into Celtic La Tene, both between Germanic and Celtic, probably of unknown or para-Celtic ethnicity. Will be interesting to see how that pans out, they could have transmitted the Hallstatt Iron Age innovations and formed that way Proto-Germanic and the Jastorf culture. This would make it an Iron Age expansion into the North, which was by then more I1/R1a/older R1b dominated probably.

E-V13 looks, not just on this map, like being split between Thracian and Celtic, which both might have been derived from Urnfield. The overlap of the Western branch with R1b-U152 is astonishing.

Dewsloth
12-11-2020, 03:16 PM
My version of I1 heatmap:

https://i.imgur.com/6vcZ2Rx.png

Do you have one for DF19?

trdbr1234
12-11-2020, 03:45 PM
My version of I1 heatmap:

https://i.imgur.com/6vcZ2Rx.png

Do you have one for R1a - YP4278?

Also, I have a Croatian match me at 33/37 markers on FTDNA from Herzegovenia. Do you by any chance know anything about him?

ph2ter
12-11-2020, 05:35 PM
Do you have one for DF19?


https://i.imgur.com/3ILLvJA.png

Dewsloth
12-11-2020, 05:39 PM
^^^Thank you, ph2ter! It's like a ghost of U106 :lol:

Looks like the double curse of low overall numbers and the highest reporting sources from people with MDKA in the UK hits hard.


Yeah, there are only about 900 DF19s in the FTDNA blocktree, 477 members in the DF19 Group, and far, far fewer in the Big Tree and Yfull.
It's frustrating in that one of my closest matches is a Dutch kit only on Yfull (all my other matches are German) and only answered one mesage then went dark.

Here's DF88. It adds Norway to the Z17112 group's Germany/Sweden/Danelaw displayed above.
DF88 is the parent of 2/3 or 3/4 of surviving DF19 subclades (582 out of 931 people in Blocktree), and is old enough to be Beaker-era:
38973

Interesting, DF88 got more Swedish since I posted the above a few months ago:

41657

ph2ter
12-11-2020, 05:48 PM
Do you have one for R1a - YP4278?

Also, I have a Croatian match me at 33/37 markers on FTDNA from Herzegovenia. Do you by any chance know anything about him?
I am not R1a and accordingly I do not have access to R1a FTDNA project.
Of the people with YP4278 who gave their location I can see only these locations:

"4341 Klisura Bulgaria"
Sizenovo
"Репьевский район Воронежская область Россия"
"Kazincbarcika Hungary"

JMcB
12-11-2020, 06:05 PM
I am not R1a and accordingly I do not have access to R1a FTDNA project.
Of the people with YP4278 who gave their location I can see only these locations:

"4341 Klisura Bulgaria"
Sizenovo
"Репьевский район Воронежская область Россия"
"Kazincbarcika Hungary"





If you have access, would you mind posting I1-Z140?

ph2ter
12-11-2020, 06:16 PM
https://i.imgur.com/WmjFC7w.png

ph2ter
12-11-2020, 06:23 PM
If you have access, would you mind posting I1-Z140?
https://i.imgur.com/C4HJJVw.png

rms2
12-11-2020, 06:33 PM
https://i.imgur.com/5Lf92fm.png
https://i.imgur.com/0bHA3Z9.png
https://i.imgur.com/U0Y3GRO.png

That U106 map is a little odd. U106 is really not all that frequent in Ireland or in a number of the places in Britain that show as deep red.

It drops drastically as one moves west across the Welsh border from England, for example.

JMcB
12-11-2020, 06:38 PM
https://i.imgur.com/C4HJJVw.png

As always, thank you, ph2ter! Very interesting! I was expecting a little more on the Continent but perhaps not. Out of curiosity, where are you getting the data from, FT’s tree?

Bygdedweller
12-11-2020, 07:02 PM
That U106 map is a little odd. U106 is really not all that frequent in Ireland or in a number of the places in Britain that show as deep red.

It drops drastically as one moves west across the Welsh border from England, for example.
The map looks terrific, but if I'm not mistaken I think it is only showing the density of samples (ph2ter, please correct me if I'm wrong). Phylogeographer is showing a relative frequency, but this approach sounds time-consuming:

I approximate relative frequency by applying a weight to each sample that is the inverse of the sampling rate [across the whole YFull tree] at that sample's location. Otherwise you would see a frequency map, subject to population density effects, rather than a relative frequency map.


I was working on something similar and noticed the exact same effect, especially if it is a haplogroup or subclade that's common in Western Europe it will tend to get skewed towards the British isles or the Low countries due to population density:

https://i.imgur.com/FcKWqrQ.png

rms2
12-11-2020, 07:10 PM
The map looks terrific . . .

It looks kind of inaccurate to me. It makes it look as if U106 is much more frequent in Ireland and in western Britain than it is.

That's not "terrific" unless one's goal is to mislead.

ph2ter
12-11-2020, 07:11 PM
Of course, my maps show only density. I don't make any kind of corrections according to sampling rate.

ph2ter
12-11-2020, 07:17 PM
As always, thank you, ph2ter! Very interesting! I was expecting a little more in the Continent but perhaps not. Out of curiosity, where are you getting the data from, FT’s tree?
I am downloading raw data from ftdna page
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14018-R1a-haplotree-visualized-geographically&p=380040&viewfull=1#post380040

JoeyP37
12-11-2020, 07:20 PM
That J2 map, I'm figuring it's from Ashkenazim that there is a big area of high frequency in Germany, as non-Mediterranean ethnicities in Europe tend to have lower amounts of J and yes I am including the Illyrian coast on the Adriatic as Mediterranean.

Helves
12-11-2020, 07:24 PM
That U106 map is a little odd. U106 is really not all that frequent in Ireland or in a number of the places in Britain that show as deep red.

It drops drastically as one moves west across the Welsh border from England, for example.

The British isles are almost always dark red in these maps. Not sure how informative this really is.

rms2
12-11-2020, 07:24 PM
I am downloading raw data from ftdna page
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14018-R1a-haplotree-visualized-geographically&p=380040&viewfull=1#post380040

So, these maps are really about where FTDNA customers say their ancestors came from and not really about the frequency of the haplogroup in a particular region.

Riverman
12-11-2020, 07:25 PM
For the British Isles the relative distribution within is more important than the comparison with the continent I'd say, if looking at these maps created by ph2ter. Britain is in comparison to most places just kind of "oversampled". For E-V13, Moldova and Romania would gain importance with more sampling too, talking about the other end of the spectrum. Sampling bias is very real.

rms2
12-11-2020, 07:25 PM
The British isles are almost always dark red in these maps. Not sure how informative this really is.

In this case not much.

I'm not trying to be overly critical, but looking at these kinds of maps could be misleading if they are taken to reflect population studies.

trdbr1234
12-11-2020, 07:29 PM
I am not R1a and accordingly I do not have access to R1a FTDNA project.
Of the people with YP4278 who gave their location I can see only these locations:

"4341 Klisura Bulgaria"
Sizenovo
"Репьевский район Воронежская область Россия"
"Kazincbarcika Hungary"




Yeah, Thank you.

He's not on the R1a project and he doesn't answer messages. He did the Y-111 so I was thinking he is maybe part of a Croatian DNA project.

ph2ter
12-11-2020, 07:34 PM
Yeah, Thank you.

He's not on the R1a project and he doesn't answer messages. He did the Y-111 so I was thinking he is maybe part of a Croatian DNA project.

I can check this.

Bygdedweller
12-11-2020, 07:42 PM
So, these maps are really about where FTDNA customers say their ancestors came from and not really about the frequency of the haplogroup in a particular region.
No, I think they're showing the location of the testers.

ph2ter
12-11-2020, 07:45 PM
No, I think they're showing the location of the testers.
The locations of FTDNA users are the locations of the most distant ancestor as far as I know.

Bygdedweller
12-11-2020, 07:54 PM
The locations of FTDNA users are the locations of the most distant ancestor as far as I know.
That's better, if that's the case. Most of the entries within the JSON-output I looked at had "ancestor: null" (name of your most distant ancestor?) and GPS-coordinates, but I guess the latter could be arbitrarily created based on the supplied info.

oz
12-11-2020, 08:09 PM
The locations of FTDNA users are the locations of the most distant ancestor as far as I know.

Do you have an I1 Z63 map? Not that I find this really accurate cuz there's clearly a bias towards NW Euro and Scandinavian testers, but it's still somewhat helpful.

ph2ter
12-11-2020, 08:17 PM
Do you have an I1 Z63 map? Not that I find this really accurate cuz there's clearly a bias towards NW Euro and Scandinavian testers, but it's still somewhat helpful.
https://i.imgur.com/1MFuaMs.png

Bygdedweller
12-11-2020, 08:25 PM
It looks kind of inaccurate to me. It makes it look as if U106 is much more frequent in Ireland and in western Britain than it is.

That's not "terrific" unless one's goal is to mislead.
Sorry? I don't think anyone was trying to mislead you. Obviously it would be better to see maps with the relative frequencies, but they require a lot more time to create.

oz
12-11-2020, 09:26 PM
https://i.imgur.com/1MFuaMs.png

Thanks
The hot spot in Northern Albania afaik is a founder effect or sampling bias as pretty much all those individuals belong to one specific branch of Z63, I forget what it's called. Although there is an Albanian that belongs to the same branch as mine on ftdna and yfull.

Riverman
12-11-2020, 09:35 PM
No, I think they're showing the location of the testers.

On FTDNA you always get the given ancestors location, at least if there is one provided. Never the customers location.

oz
12-11-2020, 11:43 PM
Thanks
The hot spot in Northern Albania afaik is a founder effect or sampling bias as pretty much all those individuals belong to one specific branch of Z63, I forget what it's called. Although there is an Albanian that belongs to the same branch as mine on ftdna and yfull.

Another interesting coincidence with these 9 Albanians and one Montenegrin on yfull and ftdna is they all belong to a branch estimated by yfull at around 500 ybp which aligns with the timing of the Turkish/Ottoman conquests in the Balkans.

Also why does Z63 on your map look to have a particularly English hot spot compared with the rest of I1? Because there's more English testers or what, is it a realistic representation?

ph2ter
12-12-2020, 12:15 AM
Another interesting coincidence with these 9 Albanians and one Montenegrin on yfull and ftdna is they all belong to a branch estimated by yfull at around 500 ybp which aligns with the timing of the Turkish/Ottoman conquests in the Balkans.

Also why does Z63 on your map look to have a particularly English hot spot compared with the rest of I1? Because there's more English testers or what, is it a realistic representation?
Unproportionally more English testers.

JerryS.
12-12-2020, 12:39 AM
I-P109 is my Y line but I can't post the pix for some reason.

JMcB
12-12-2020, 12:54 AM
I-P109 is my Y line but I can't post the pix for some reason.

Here you go:

41670

JerryS.
12-12-2020, 01:06 AM
Here you go:

41670

thanks. I saw where it had a hot spot in the Philippines and in central Asia too?

JoeyP37
12-12-2020, 01:36 AM
Mine is dominated by Bavarians; while my male line immigrant ancestor was born in the Kingdom of Bavaria, his hometown is now part of Rhineland-Palatinate.41671

Piquerobi
12-12-2020, 03:16 AM
D-M64.1:


D-M64.1 formed 44900 ybp, TMRCA 20900 ybp
https://www.yfull.com/tree/D-M64.1/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_D-M55

41672

JMcB
12-12-2020, 03:51 AM
thanks. I saw where it had a hot spot in the Philippines and in central Asia too?


True, I didn’t notice that because I zoomed right in on Europe.

MitchellSince1893
12-12-2020, 04:51 AM
https://i.imgur.com/5Lf92fm.png
https://i.imgur.com/0bHA3Z9.png
[COLOR=#FFFFFF][FONT="]

Not sure whether it just a heat "mapism", or has a historical significance; but it's interesting that brother clades DF-27 and U152 have a similar pattern of concentration to the north Alps, near the Rhine (present day Alsace/Lorraine, France; Baden-Württemberg/Rhineland Palatinate, Germany; northern Switzerland)

phter U152 map with DF27 highest concentration area outlined in blue

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/83/40/208340b9ad70eda84c45152907a37989.png

EDIT: It may not be anything as I1, J2, U106 and other heat maps also have a concentration in the same area.

Riverman
12-12-2020, 11:02 AM
Not sure whether it just a heat "mapism", or has a historical significance; but it's interesting that brother clades DF-27 and U152 have a similar pattern of concentration to the north Alps, near the Rhine (present day Alsace/Lorraine, France; Baden-Württemberg/Rhineland Palatinate, Germany; northern Switzerland)

phter U152 map with DF27 highest concentration area outlined in blue

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/83/40/208340b9ad70eda84c45152907a37989.png

EDIT: It may not be anything as I1, J2, U106 and other heat maps also have a concentration in the same area.

For DF27 its less significant than for E-V13 and J, because the South West of Germany is densely populated and has a history of large migrations to the USA. Considering that sample bias, that its equally distributed from Western Iberia to South Western Germany is telling imho. Its like with dots in Romania and Moldova, those need to be multiplied while you have to divide those from Britain and South Western Germany. They really need to stick out big time. Yet there is a slight trend probably?

Hawk
12-12-2020, 12:23 PM
This is for E-V13 => Z5018 => S2979, the subclade i belong to.

https://i.imgur.com/x0gMBTX.png

Riverman
12-12-2020, 01:23 PM
This is for E-V13 => Z5018 => S2979, the subclade i belong to.

https://i.imgur.com/x0gMBTX.png

France seems to be constantly underrepresented because of the sampling bias, isn't it?

Nino90
12-12-2020, 04:21 PM
41683
Son of the alps and apennines.

cvolt
12-12-2020, 04:31 PM
I did it for my dad, he is J2b2
https://i.imgur.com/um9JK1j.png

JMcB
12-12-2020, 04:46 PM
Unproportionally more English testers.

Hell ph2ter,

If you have access to the branch I1-Y7198 would you mind doing another map? Family Tree has much better coverage of that branch and it’s 14 subclades than YFull does. So I’m curious to see how it looks.


Thanks in advance, not matter what the case may be!

ph2ter
12-12-2020, 06:34 PM
Hell ph2ter,

If you have access to the branch I1-Y7198 would you mind doing another map? Family Tree has much better coverage of that branch and it’s 14 subclades than YFull does. So I’m curious to see how it looks.


Thanks in advance, not matter what the case may be!
Only a few samples:

https://i.imgur.com/d0ivnxn.png

dosas
12-12-2020, 06:45 PM
If you have time and can be bothered, can you do R-L584?

Thanks in advance.

Tz85
12-12-2020, 07:13 PM
Here's mine. Closest I could get was E-V12. Nothing for E-V12*.

MitchellSince1893
12-12-2020, 08:05 PM
My version of ...
Hey ph2ter, I know others have attempted to remove/negate/lessen the FTDNA testing bias.

I'm not sure if there's any way for you (or others) to use this, but I've just completed my own attempt. Looking at when the bulk of immigrants came to the US (per the US testing bias), I chose 1850 as a mid point (half way between 1700 & 2000), I had to chose a year where historic population data was readily available for European countries, and 1850 seemed a good compromise, while after much of the English immigration, and before much of the Italian immigration to America, 1850 was close to the Irish and German peak immigration years.

Methodology
Totaled # of samples for following 42 European countries in FTDNA database (no US, Canada, etc), Also didn't include, Cyprus, Turkey, Malta, and Caucacus countries.

This came out to 75,495 samples. Figured percentage of this total for each country (I excluded United Kingdom numbers as they can't be further classified)

For example
England: 12,497 came out to 16.55% of the total for FTDNA European countries

I then got the 1850 populations for these 42 countries from various sources. Data wasn't always available for circa 1850, so I just had to extropolate based on what I could find.
The 1850 estimated population total for these 42 countries was 263,003,787.


England: 18,000,000 in 1850, represented 6.84% of this total.
England's FTDNA percentage of 16.55% is 241.87% greater than it's percentage of the 1850 total population.

Here is the FTDNA totals

England 12,497
Ireland 9,297
Germany 8,015
Scotland 6,836
Russian Federation 4,549
Sweden 3,456
Finland 3,222
Italy 2,984
Poland 2,971
France 2,900
Spain 2,226
Norway 1,755
Switzerland 1,451
Ukraine 1,426
Netherlands 1,086
Northern Ireland 1,062
Wales 1,023
Hungary 879
Portugal 837
Lithuania 782
Greece 672
Belarus 655
Czech Republic 650
Denmark 627
Austria 530
Romania 446
Belgium 387
Bulgaria 371
Slovakia 363
Croatia 188
Latvia 175
Serbia 171
Bosnia and Herzegovina 157
Albania 137
Iceland 135
Slovenia 133
Estonia 112
Macedonia 86
Montenegro 83
Isle of Man 66
Kosovo 50
Luxembourg 47
Total: 75,495


The 1850 population estimates
Country Pop
England 18,000,000
Ireland 4,800,000 (excluding Northern Ireland)
Germany 35,300,000
Scotland 3,000,000
Russia 43,500,000
Sweden 3,483,000
Finland 1,637,000
Italy 24,300,000
Poland 4,900,000
France 35,600,000
Spain 15,700,000
Norway 1,390,000
Switzerland 2,400,000
Ukraine 13,200,000
Netherlands 3,057,000
Northern Ireland 2,200,000
Wales 2,400,000
Hungary 4,802,400
Portugal 3,800,000
Lithuania 5,000,000
Greece 1,000,000
Belarus 2,300,000
Czech Republic 6,600,000
Denmark 1,415,000
Austria 3,879,000
Romania 3,700,000
Belgium 4,400,000
Bulgaria 1,700,000
Slovakia 2,390,000
Georgia 1,300,000
Croatia 1,610,000
Latvia 140,000
Serbia 1,000,000
Bosnia-Herzegovina 1,000,000
Albania 507,000
Iceland 60,000
Slovenia 1,100,000
Estonia 290,000
Macedonia 800,000
Montenegro 100,000
Isle of Man 52,387
Kosovo 300,000
Luxembourg 191,000
Total: 263,003,787


And the corresponding FTDNA bias
Country Bias
England 2.42 (2.42 times over represented)
Ireland 6.75
Germany 0.79 (under represented)
Scotland 7.94
Russian Federation 0.36
Sweden 3.46
Finland 6.86
Italy 0.43
Poland 2.11
France 0.28
Spain 0.49
Norway 4.40
Switzerland 2.11
Ukraine 0.38
Netherlands 1.24
Northern Ireland 1.68
Wales 1.48
Hungary 0.64
Portugal 0.77
Lithuania 0.54
Greece 2.34
Belarus 0.99 (very close to being un-biased)
Czech Republic 0.34
Denmark 1.54
Austria 0.48
Romania 0.42
Belgium 0.31
Bulgaria 0.76
Slovakia 0.53
Croatia 0.41
Latvia 4.35
Serbia 0.60
Bosnia and Herzegovina 0.55
Albania 0.94
Iceland 7.84
Slovenia 0.42
Estonia 1.35
Macedonia 0.37
Montenegro 2.89
Isle of Man 4.39
Kosovo 0.58
Luxembourg 0.86



There are problems with this approach.
1. It doesn't account for regions of countries that are over/under represented in the US (e.g. Palantinate Germany is probably over represented even though Germany as a whole is slightly under represented)
2. It doesnt' account for the difference between 1850 and when the bulk of a population immigrated (e.g. most of Italian immigration was after 1850 when Italy's population was larger)
3. It doesn't account for subsequent population growth after immigration (17th century English population's growth after immigration e.g. 500,000 immigrated but they have 50,000,000 descendants)
4. Probably many others issues I haven't even thought about.

Having said that, is there a way you could use this data to reduce the bias?

ph2ter
12-12-2020, 08:12 PM
If you have time and can be bothered, can you do R-L584?

Thanks in advance.
I don't know the name of this R1b project and cannot download the raw data.

ph2ter
12-12-2020, 08:25 PM
@MitchellSince1893 (https://anthrogenica.com/member.php?607-MitchellSince1893),

Thank you for your input.
These bias numbers can be used as weighting factors for every country, but it will took some time to prepare the data.
I will try this next week, I hope.

MitchellSince1893
12-12-2020, 08:34 PM
@MitchellSince1893 (https://anthrogenica.com/member.php?607-MitchellSince1893),

Thank you for your input.
These bias numbers can be used as weighting factors for every country, but it will took some time to prepare the data.
I will try this next week, I hope.

Please note that I had errors in the Austria & Hungary population estimates for 1850, which affected all the other numbers. I have gone back and fixed the errors/updated the percentages/totals.

Here is the weighting based on the inverse of the bias

Country Weighting
England 0.41
Ireland 0.15
Germany 1.26
Scotland 0.13
Russia 2.74
Sweden 0.29
Finland 0.15
Italy 2.34
Poland 0.47
France 3.52
Spain 2.02
Norway 0.23
Switzerland 0.47
Ukraine 2.66
Netherlands 0.81
Northern Ireland 0.59
Wales 0.67
Hungary 1.57
Portugal 1.30
Lithuania 1.84
Greece 0.43
Belarus 1.01
Czech Republic 2.91
Denmark 0.65
Austria 2.10
Romania 2.38
Belgium 3.26
Bulgaria 1.32
Slovakia 1.89
Croatia 2.46
Latvia 0.23
Serbia 1.68
Bosnia-Herzegovina 1.83
Albania 1.06
Iceland 0.13
Slovenia 2.37
Estonia 0.74
Macedonia 2.67
Montenegro 0.35
Isle of Man 0.23
Kosovo 1.72
Luxembourg 1.17

Hawk
12-12-2020, 09:40 PM
France seems to be constantly underrepresented because of the sampling bias, isn't it?

Would France change anything? Why would E-V13 S2979 be common in France?

Riverman
12-12-2020, 09:50 PM
Would France change anything? Why would E-V13 S2979 be common in France?

I'm not saying particularly common, but right now its like a gap between South Western Germany and Britain. That's not logical, because if E-V13 spread with Celts also, France too should have it, if it spread with Romans and Thracian-Roman soldiers too, as well. Even with Western Germanics, too. There is little reason for Britain having more of it than France. One could argue for more Anglo-Saxon and German influences probably, sure, but still, the difference shouldn't be that big at all.

Piquerobi
12-12-2020, 11:21 PM
A00:


A00 formed 235900 ybp, TMRCA 37600 ybpinfo
https://www.yfull.com/tree/A00/

41697

JMcB
12-13-2020, 12:44 AM
Only a few samples:

https://i.imgur.com/d0ivnxn.png

Thank you, ph2ter!

Yes, it is a small branch with only 24 members and YFull is missing a quarter of them. Including the only two who are on the Continent. So I was hoping to see how they placed, which you have captured.

dosas
12-13-2020, 08:03 AM
I don't know the name of this R1b project and cannot download the raw data.

Oh sorry, didn't realise you were going by project name. L584 is a split from Z2103, R1b - Basal is the best source, I guess.

ph2ter
12-13-2020, 11:14 AM
Oh sorry, didn't realise you were going by project name. L584 is a split from Z2103, R1b - Basal is the best source, I guess.
I know that it is R1b Basal, but that is not the name under which the raw data are hiding (axn=getdata&group=R1b-????)

Riverman
12-13-2020, 12:11 PM
I know that it is R1b Basal, but that is not the name under which the raw data are hiding (axn=getdata&group=R1b-????)

I would be very interested in a E-S2979 map by you, the other heatmap is in my opinion not that expressive and unfortunately also more incomplete.

ph2ter
12-13-2020, 04:13 PM
I would be very interested in a E-S2979 map by you, the other heatmap is in my opinion not that expressive and unfortunately also more incomplete.
Only one kit under this subgroup:
Bugjon, Albania

MitchellSince1893
12-13-2020, 05:52 PM
Only one kit under this subgroup:
Bugjon, Albania

Could I request a map for
U152> L2> Z41150> Z49,Z68> Z142?

If I go down to U152> L2> Z41150> Z49,Z68> Z142>Z12222 there probably isn’t enough data to make a useful map.
Thank you in advance.

Riverman
12-13-2020, 07:05 PM
Only one kit under this subgroup:
Bugjon, Albania

I meant all subclades below included :) But good to know, wasn't aware of that fact. Interesting.

ph2ter
12-13-2020, 10:43 PM
Could I request a map for
U152> L2> Z41150> Z49,Z68> Z142?

If I go down to U152> L2> Z41150> Z49,Z68> Z142>Z12222 there probably isn’t enough data to make a useful map.
Thank you in advance.
https://i.imgur.com/2uNZksW.png

https://i.imgur.com/rwOrfz7.png

ph2ter
12-13-2020, 10:53 PM
I would be very interested in a E-S2979 map by you, the other heatmap is in my opinion not that expressive and unfortunately also more incomplete.
Before I made some error.
Here is the heatmap:

https://i.imgur.com/x1frU0Q.png

drobbah
12-13-2020, 11:06 PM
E-V32 seems to be restricted to the Horn,Egypt/Sudan,Sahel,Jordan/Palestine & Arabian Peninsula from what I seen on ftdna.Heat map is missing many samples but is pretty accurate

https://i.imgur.com/JmEM7Bw.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Ffm3HbD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ARb5Aj0.jpg

davit
12-13-2020, 11:10 PM
E-V32 seems to be restricted to the Horn,Egypt/Sudan,Sahel,Jordan/Palestine & Arabian Peninsula from what I seen on ftdna.Heat map is missing many samples but is pretty accurate

https://i.imgur.com/JmEM7Bw.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Ffm3HbD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ARb5Aj0.jpg


How did it get to Arabia?

drobbah
12-13-2020, 11:17 PM
How did it get to Arabia?
Depends on which branch of E-V32 the Arabian has, the E-Y17859 Arabians are descendants of proto-Somali immigrants and have been found in Hijaz,Riyadh & Qatar so far, E-FGC14382 are probably descendants of Nubians,Red Sea Beja,or Upper Egyptians and can be found in Southern Levantines,Saudis and Yemenis.E-V5933 which is from the Sahel was probably brought to Kuwait by slaves or merchants.

ph2ter
12-14-2020, 10:04 AM
Please note that I had errors in the Austria & Hungary population estimates for 1850, which affected all the other numbers. I have gone back and fixed the errors/updated the percentages/totals.

Here is the weighting based on the inverse of the bias

Country Weighting
England 0.41
Ireland 0.15
Germany 1.26
Scotland 0.13
Russia 2.74
Sweden 0.29
Finland 0.15
Italy 2.34
Poland 0.47
France 3.52
Spain 2.02
Norway 0.23
Switzerland 0.47
Ukraine 2.66
Netherlands 0.81
Northern Ireland 0.59
Wales 0.67
Hungary 1.57
Portugal 1.30
Lithuania 1.84
Greece 0.43
Belarus 1.01
Czech Republic 2.91
Denmark 0.65
Austria 2.10
Romania 2.38
Belgium 3.26
Bulgaria 1.32
Slovakia 1.89
Croatia 2.46
Latvia 0.23
Serbia 1.68
Bosnia-Herzegovina 1.83
Albania 1.06
Iceland 0.13
Slovenia 2.37
Estonia 0.74
Macedonia 2.67
Montenegro 0.35
Isle of Man 0.23
Kosovo 1.72
Luxembourg 1.17

This is the result for U152 (it took much work, because I needed to extract the country of origin from text and latitude and longitude values).

https://i.imgur.com/LAUcxCY.png
https://i.imgur.com/gBdSffu.png
https://i.imgur.com/sMJT39m.png

Riverman
12-14-2020, 10:15 AM
This is the result for U152 (it took much work, because I needed to extract the country of origin from text and latitude and longitude values).


Wow, especially the second image reproduces just the La Tene Celtic centres, looks great. The hotspot between Romania-Moldova-Ukraine is interesting. Really worth it and a game changer imho.

ph2ter
12-14-2020, 10:38 AM
Wow, especially the second image reproduces just the La Tene Celtic centres, looks great. The hotspot between Romania-Moldova-Ukraine is interesting. Really worth it and a game changer imho.
Several others heatmap parameters:

https://i.imgur.com/4iM0f9y.png

https://i.imgur.com/dUE94Ua.png

ph2ter
12-14-2020, 02:23 PM
Weighted DF27 with various heatmap parameters:
https://i.imgur.com/n74dWL9.png
https://i.imgur.com/Yy3cfc7.png
https://i.imgur.com/JJ41k0n.png
https://i.imgur.com/bQqUPDO.png

Webb
12-14-2020, 08:51 PM
Weighted DF27 with various heatmap parameters:
https://i.imgur.com/n74dWL9.png
https://i.imgur.com/Yy3cfc7.png
https://i.imgur.com/JJ41k0n.png
https://i.imgur.com/bQqUPDO.png

This set is my favorite.

FionnSneachta
12-14-2020, 10:56 PM
Phylogeographer heatmap of my terminal SNP going back to L21.

https://i.imgur.com/htVpiBo.png

MitchellSince1893
12-15-2020, 12:39 AM
This is the result for U152 (it took much work, because I needed to extract the country of origin from text and latitude and longitude values).

Thanks for doing this. It does appear to be effective in reducing the British Isles Bias...especially the top maps for U152 and DF27 you posted.

mokordo
12-15-2020, 01:07 AM
Mine.

https://i.imgur.com/eO5Bbc5.png

JoeyP37
12-15-2020, 01:44 AM
Mine.

https://i.imgur.com/eO5Bbc5.png

Hey, yours looks like mine.

mokordo
12-15-2020, 01:54 PM
Hey, yours looks like mine.

I still don´t know how it came to Spain...

Riverman
12-15-2020, 02:01 PM
I still don´t know how it came to Spain...

Germanic migrations or later Frankish crusaders probably? But could also have been a Celt or a Medieval trader. A lot depends on the timing and so far there are not that many samples for a correct TMRCA.

MitchellSince1893
12-15-2020, 02:35 PM
This is the result for U152 (it took much work, because I needed to extract the country of origin from text and latitude and longitude values).

https://i.imgur.com/LAUcxCY.png
https://i.imgur.com/gBdSffu.png
https://i.imgur.com/sMJT39m.png

Out of curiosity, there appears to be a U152 yellow dot cluster in SW Ireland, along the southern coast in Cork, but it’s having no impact on the heat maps.

ph2ter
12-15-2020, 02:40 PM
Out of curiosity, there appears to be a U152 yellow dot cluster in SW Ireland, along the southern coast in Cork, but it’s having no impact on the heat maps.
Ireland country weighting parameter is 0.15.
You are contradictory :)

mokordo
12-15-2020, 05:22 PM
Germanic migrations or later Frankish crusaders probably? But could also have been a Celt or a Medieval trader. A lot depends on the timing and so far there are not that many samples for a correct TMRCA.

I don´t know, i´ve ordered a FTDNA Y-111, maybe that could bring more light about where or who brought it to the Iberian peninsula.

My grandparent was born in Úbeda, a small city near La Carolina, and La Carolina was one of the main settlements of the "Nuevas poblaciones de Andalucía y Sierra Morena".

There is a good article in Wikipedia about those settlements of Center European people in late 1700s in that area, but in Spanish only:

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuevas_Poblaciones_de_Andaluc%C3%ADa_y_Sierra_More na

Could be a possible explanation, but my paternal ancestors in 1850s had Spanish surnames and neither my father nor I have an autosomal abnormal excess of Germanic or Slavic contribution, so could be that the haplotype arrived in Spain quite before that time.

mokordo
12-15-2020, 06:23 PM
Germanic migrations or later Frankish crusaders probably? But could also have been a Celt or a Medieval trader. A lot depends on the timing and so far there are not that many samples for a correct TMRCA.

About "Nuevas Poblaciones de...", this is a sample of propaganda made to attract settlers:

Thürriegel's propaganda to attract settlers (1767-1769)
Posted on 16 January, 2019by Carmen María Fernández Casas
Greetings to all.

The information that I publish below is extracted from a communication made in the Proceedings of the International Congress New Populations of Sierra Morena and Andalusia and other agrarian colonizations in the Europe of the Enlightenment, by Albert Alonso Carmona.

Johan Kaspar von Thürriegel (Gossersdorf, Bavaria, 1722- Pamplona, ​​Navarra, 1800) was the main of the settlers who participated in the colonization project of the New Towns of Sierra Morena and later of Andalusia. In mid-1765 he had already submitted a proposal to recruit soldiers and settlers that was not accepted. The second proposal was agreed with King Carlos III and was signed on April 2, 1767. In order to attract a sufficient number of settlers, he had different brochures printed and published, from April 1767 to January 1769, addressed to people who desperately seeking to improve their living conditions in an extremely destitute and depressed Europe.

contract_th3



A letter from Campomanes to Múzquiz

This letter is dated in Madrid on May 15, 1767, Pedro Rodríguez Campomanes, Prosecutor of the Council of Castile, informs Miguel de Müzquiz, Minister of Finance, about the imminent march of Thurriegel to somewhere in the Holy Roman Empire to start the settler recruit (Thurriegel's fate could be anyone except Bavaria, from where he had been expelled in 1765).

”Mui Sr of mine: In a separate sheet I take the confidence to direct VSI 24 Examples. of the Cédula and Contract with Thente. Colonel Dn. Juan Gaspar de Thurriegel, and are attached the notices in French and Flemish that he has arranged, in accordance with the Consultation of the Council to attract the new Settlers, of which he has sent a portion to his Correspondents and in this he has used his time, with utility and in their particular contracts. Tomorrow he will present himself to VSI to say goodbye and go to Germany, where he is going through Pamplona, ​​Tolosa and León, (...) I have speculated, because he has opened up with me, the measures he has taken to carry out his contract and I contemplate them very proportionate ( ...) "

BIENFAITS DE SA MAJESTÉ CATHOLIQUE - APRIL 1767:

Here is the complete translation of the first propaganda in French. It has an extension of 7 pages and was printed in Madrid by Antonio Sanz on April 15, 1767.

bienfaits1b

Benefits of His Catholic Majesty

In favor of 6000 Flemish and German settlers, of the contract of Lord Jean Gaspara de Thürriegel for their introduction and establishment in Spain.

I. From the port of disembarkation they will be housed, maintained and taken to the place of establishment with expenses covered by SM

II. They will be divided into colonies or villages of 20 to 30 families each, on healthy land and with enough water.

III. Each family will have their home 60 to 62 feet per side, and settlers will be required to help build it.

IV. Each family will be given fifty bushels ∗ of arable land on a comfortable land for cultivation and also some other land to plant trees, vineyards, with pasture land in the mountains for their cows, sheep, goats and pigs.

V. For each Council, made up of 3 or 4 of these towns, a sufficient and common free space will be assigned to graze the working cattle of the communities.

SAW. Each family will also be given the necessary utensils of hoes, picks, axes, plows and other agricultural tools, and people with trade all the tools, devices and looms of their different trades.

VII. Each family will also be given 2 cows, 5 sheep, 5 goats, 5 chickens, a rooster and a sow.

VIII. During the first year grains and vegetables will be given for their subsistence and seeds of all kinds.

IX. The settlers will be assisted by all possible means for the success and progress of the colony.

X. There will be a book to record the ownership of the land that will be given to each family.

XI. A certain time will be established in which the lands must be plowed and cultivated.

XII. They will retain ownership of these lands for themselves and their descendants, as long as they have the will to cultivate them and maintain them as good parents.

XIII. For ten years they will be free of tribute, so that they have better support to sustain themselves and establish their homes and families.

XIV. They will enjoy the same general privileges as the other subjects of SM for themselves and their descendants without any difference.

XV. They will have priests in their own language until they learn that of the country.

XVI. They will be treated in everything with the utmost humanity and hospitality in accordance with His Majesty's intentions, and his Supreme Council will ensure the execution of these Conditions with the equity that is its own.

XVII. By this means the interested parties can already consider themselves sufficiently informed of the advantages that they will have when settling in a pleasant, healthy and fertile country; not only in grains and legumes, but also in wines, oils and other crops of great value, which will largely reward the settlers for the work carried out, and where the benefits are guaranteed by the means used in the distribution order of the land that would have made the established inhabitants happy if the same distribution had been made.

Madrid April 15, 1767.

(∗) Each Bushel is 254 feet Paris long, and the same width.

GLÜCKS-HAFEN ODER REICHER SCHASS-KASTEN - APRIL 1767

The following comments refer to propaganda to attract settlers in the German language. The first known version consists of 9 pages and the cover. Its content is broader than the French propaganda seen previously. There is no truthful record of where they were printed and who the printer is. Its cover is a fragment of the best known in all historiography on New Populations.



glusckshafen1

The Port of Happiness or The Treasure Chest.

The Spanish monarch, as one of the richest Kings, has opened his rich coffers for the consolation and benefit of all farmers, wage earners, artisans, apprentices or with trade, young and old, single or married, men, women and children, Germans and flamingos, it will be a sure hit, in the form of money, cows, lambs, goats, pigs, birds, wheat, corn, oats and other necessary foods of the earth; likewise houses, fields, meadows, forests, as well as the necessary tools and instruments that may be obtained, among them, by those who attend to this notice and accept the advantages of following the prescriptions of this side.

1767

Its continuation corresponds to the first page of the previous notice, "Bienfaits de Sa Majesté Catholique"; its title is "Hülfreiche hand".

Hülfreiche hand

gluckliche

… With which His Catholic Majesty the King of Spain will help the 6000 German and Flemish settlers for any type of need (that Mr. Johann Caspar von Thürriegel will bring as residents to the country of the Kingdom of Spain according to the content of the contract that he has closed and signed ) (…)

The 17 articles are the same as those contained in French propaganda, with some variations; thus Article II says: "They will be distributed, at the beginning, in towns of 20 to 30 houses", omitting the continuation "in a healthy land and with enough water". The footnote at the end of the 17 articles now reads: “Each Bushel is 268 feet of the Rhine long by the same width”, therefore for articles III and IV the foot of the Rhine should now be applied instead of the foot of Paris to estimate the surface of the houses or to establish the equivalence of 50 Bushels. There are changes in the translation in the places of origin of the settlers, the meeting points with the representatives of Thürriegel, the amount for travel expenses that should be given to the future settlers and in the ports of embarkation.

four Kreuzers of the Rhine or 3 French Soles for every league from the place of his house to Marseille or Sète. All of them will travel free of charge to Malaga in Spain and during the journey they will be provided with good food free of charge on the boats. This cruise will be 12 days with bad wind, 8 with medium wind and 4 to 5 days with good wind, the trip will be pleasant and distracted because you will never stop seeing the Spanish coast, shore or coastline. All those who want to carry their tools, clothes or other necessary things of their own will be free of toll in all countries and in all Spanish Royal Customs, and German carpenters will do well to carry their tools, because in Spain they are not of the same type and characteristics such as those made in Germany.

(handwritten signature) Johann Caspar Von Thürriegel

SECOND VERSION (German propaganda) - APRIL 1767

It also has a cover and 9 pages. with the novelty that the coat of arms of Carlos III appears over the words “Hülfreiche Hand” (The Helpful Hand), and on the last page to the left of Thürriegel's signature there is a coat of arms that will be repeated in both following brochures and that in the fourth version he will attribute himself as his own. Also on the last page is a novelty in this second edition in an annex of 6 double-column paragraphs with the following Auxiliary Notes (Ferrere Nachricht):

Auxiliary Notes.

First of all: Those who, due to their language or way of dressing, cannot be distinguished from Alsatians or French, must bring their baptismal certificate or passport from the German or Swiss authorities when arriving in Schlettstadt or Belfort, it is previously written that the subjects will not be accepted come from the villages of France.

Secondly: It is advisable that people (before contacting the commissars of Schlettstadt or Belfort to get their money for the trip go in groups, of 12, 15 or 30 people, also counting the children until the moment of their arrival where they will be provided with money for the trip and the form with the route to follow.

Third: To change cities, they will do so in groups of a maximum of 40 people, always the same, so that they can be anywhere with ease.

Fourth: All those who are able to acquire one or more horses and who travel to their new land in Spain keeping them, know that they can sell them there for double the money. However, mares are not allowed into Spain.

Fifth: The place where the colonists and their goods will settle is between the Royal residence city of Madrid and the very famous and rich city of Cádiz where gold and silver are traded.

Sixth: Those who come from the Lower Rhine, Speyer or the Palatinate, and all those who come from between Landau and Kehl, should contact Mr. Demars, in Schelettsatt, who will provide provisions for Spain. Those who come from Basel can go to Belfort and introduce themselves to Mr. Royer the younger, by whom they will all be well received.

THIRD VERSION - OCTOBER 1768

Its extension is only 4 pages and includes the 17 articles. In the section "Message and public notes", it is shorter and in this edition it is extended to other Central European areas as origins of possible settlers. The last paragraph shows the following warning: All those who are French subjects are aware that they are not accepted by my commissioners, but those who are from other countries will do well to always be able to demonstrate with a baptismal certificate or a reliable certificate, that it can be of marriage or of another class, that they are not French or subjects of the King of France, which are not accepted in this colony.

FOURTH VERSION - JANUARY 1769

Likewise, its 4 pages include the 17 articles of "The helpful hand", it continues with a section entitled "Short messages and notes" where there is a small explanation about the supposed advantages of settling in Spain. It is dedicated to counteracting the confrontation by competition from another settler, Johann Josef Anton Jauch between mid and late 1768 for wanting to incorporate Swiss settlers for the same destination.

Short messages and notes.

Count of Aranda and several other members of the Supreme Council, even with the printing of the Great Seal of the Royal Crown, to put order in any doubt. Therefore, no one should be fooled by it, being applicable also to people who receive instructions from Jauch.

My commissioners who have started the delivery of money to pay for the trips from the place of origin on the way to Spain, with all humanity and without exception for all who personally contact them, are in Alsace and in France in the following places :

At Schlettstadt Herr Demars, at Belfort Herr Royer der Jüngere, at Besançon Herr Patot, at Lyon Herr Richard, at Sète Herr Chevalier de Gorce.

In Spain: In Barcelona Herr Franß Ponte, in Pamplona Herr Burguy, in Madrid Herr Franß Godin.

In Genoa, in Italy, Herr Carl Ponte.

My own autograph signature and my stamp printed on this document affirm that all of this is in accordance with the truth.

Madrid January 12, 1769

(handwritten signature) Johann Caspar von Thürriegel

Riverman
12-15-2020, 06:58 PM
About "Nuevas Poblaciones de...", this is a sample of propaganda made to attract settlers:

Did these settlement persist and kept the Germans their surnames? Or how was the impact overall?

mokordo
12-15-2020, 08:50 PM
Did these settlement persist and kept the Germans their surnames? Or how was the impact overall?

Many of them adopted Spanish surnames or they "hispanized" they original surnames, resulting in surnames with Castilian sound but quite strange.


Currently, the descendants of the settlers live mainly in the towns of La Carlota, La Luisiana, Cañada Rosal, La Carolina and others nearby, conserving some foreign surnames, their physiognomy, such as light hair, blue eyes, etc., or parties such as that of painted eggs, which occur in many humid European climates, from Asturias to Russia. In any case, do not think of the descendants of the colonists as a kind of immigrant group who have preserved some of their culture, as is the case with the Italians or the Irish in the United States, for example. If it were not for the foreign appearance of some, and strange surnames to the Spanish ear, they would not differ at all from other Spaniards and Andalusians.

Webb
12-15-2020, 08:59 PM
Many of them adopted Spanish surnames or they "hispanized" they original surnames, resulting in surnames with Castilian sound but quite strange.

There are a number of kits in the DF27 project that are most likely "hispanized" Frankish surnames. My own block mate under FGC23196 is Spanish and his name is Javaloy, which was originally de Valois.

mokordo
12-15-2020, 10:00 PM
There are a number of kits in the DF27 project that are most likely "hispanized" Frankish surnames. My own block mate under FGC23196 is Spanish and his name is Javaloy, which was originally de Valois.

I don´t think so, Javaloy comes probably from Javaloyes,a quite common surname in Alicante and Valencia, a corrupted form of Jabaloyas , a town in Teruel.And that name probably has a mixed Arab+Castillian origin (Javal=gebel/ğabal=mount in Arab+hoya=it has many means in Spanish) or even simply Arab (jabal ʿulyà=the greatest mountain).

And DF27 is quite common in the Iberian peninsula.

Webb
12-15-2020, 11:25 PM
I don´t think so, Javaloy comes probably from Javaloyes,a quite common surname in Alicante and Valencia, a corrupted form of Jabaloyas , a town in Teruel.And that name probably has a mixed Arab+Castillian origin (Javal=gebel/ğabal=mount in Arab+hoya=it has many means in Spanish) or even simply Arab (jabal ʿulyà=the greatest mountain).

And DF27 is quite common in the Iberian peninsula.

He has a documented paper trail showing he descends from a Vincent de Valois en Crepy, or en Crepy de Valois, who was given property for serving King Jaime during the reconquest. I’m just going by what he told me.

Riverman
12-15-2020, 11:56 PM
He has a documented paper trail showing he descends from a Vincent de Valois en Crepy, or en Crepy de Valois, who was given property for serving King Jaime during the reconquest. I’m just going by what he told me.

Its actually quite common in various languages that the same or at least a very similar surname can come up in different ways. Like foreign place names too can get corrupted to develop into something known. If it sounds similar, people begin to use the spelling and interpretation being best adapted to the known. So I guess you both could be right.

ADW_1981
12-16-2020, 02:54 AM
And DF27 is quite common in the Iberian peninsula.

Not just "quite common", it is the most common haplogroup. However, a 4500 year old ancestor is not that informative. If you look at the distribution of CTS4065, a descendant of DF27 which has limited descendants, you could more easily pinpoint an highly plausible origin among Frankish tribes of Central Europe. (Not very common in Iberia) In summary, CTS4065 isn't of Iberian origin based on the data we have.

As much as I appreciate the heatmaps, you can't really draw conclusions based on oversampling of data, and lack there of in other regions. DF27 looks absent in Spain for instance, yet I know most of the public samples are indeed DF27. I haven't followed the thread to see if there was any explanation on the methodology.

ADW_1981
12-16-2020, 02:59 AM
He has a documented paper trail showing he descends from a Vincent de Valois en Crepy, or en Crepy de Valois, who was given property for serving King Jaime during the reconquest. I’m just going by what he told me.

He's probably correct, that whole branch is very French, but also pops up in England and Germany, so I'd anticipate many CTS4065 ancestors living among the Franks and Normans. Whether the group was originally from La Tene or something else further back is neither here nor there.

MitchellSince1893
12-16-2020, 06:27 AM
Ireland country weighting parameter is 0.15.
You are contradictory :)
Maybe it's your hot map settings, but even when I look at your unweighted map in post 60 (zoomed in below), it shows little impact caused by the cluster of 11 samples within the red rectangle along the southern coast. Instead the heat map is "hotter" in the more sparsely populated center of Ireland, when in fact it should be brighter at this southern cluster and in Northern Ireland.

Just seems like something is off on your heat map display setting, like it needs to be narrowed or tightened up...not sure what the actual option is called. I remember there was something you could play with when I was going thorugh my GIS training.

It's no biggie, just wanted to bring it to your attention in case some setting was off.

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/50/86/0c/50860c0943426a0fce647c2b23bbd1d6.jpg

EDIT: I think I know what the issue might be. You don’t have LAT/LONG for each dot so you are using a manual method to create the heat maps, thus the dots don’t always correspond to the heat locations? If so I applaud you effort to manually do this...that’s a lot of work.

ph2ter
12-16-2020, 07:09 AM
Maybe it's your hot map settings, but even when I look at your unweighted map in post 60 (zoomed in below), it shows little impact caused by the cluster of 11 samples within the red rectangle along the southern coast. Instead the heat map is "hotter" in the more sparsely populated center of Ireland, when in fact it should be brighter at this southern cluster and in Northern Ireland.

Just seems like something is off on your heat map display setting, like it needs to be narrowed or tightened up...not sure what the actual option is called. I remember there was something you could play with when I was going thorugh my GIS training.

It's no biggie, just wanted to bring it to your attention in case some setting was off.

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/50/86/0c/50860c0943426a0fce647c2b23bbd1d6.jpg

EDIT: I think I know what the issue might be. You don’t have LAT/LONG for each dot so you are using a manual method to create the heat maps, thus the dots don’t always correspond to the heat locations? If so I applaud you effort to manually do this...that’s a lot of work.
The parameter is heatmap radius. On the previous map the heat of the samples of southern coast were adding to the central yellow area.
When I reduce the heatmap radius parameter then you can see a little heating on the southwest coast of Ireland (this is weighted map, so the heat area is not so obvious):

https://i.imgur.com/UfhaJML.png

mokordo
12-16-2020, 11:03 AM
He has a documented paper trail showing he descends from a Vincent de Valois en Crepy, or en Crepy de Valois, who was given property for serving King Jaime during the reconquest. I’m just going by what he told me.

I don´t know if its invented, a fantasy or real, too much coincidence:


Vincent de Valoys Crépy
sr. de Jabaloyas (Albarracín,Teruel, España) y alcaide de Alpuente (Valencia, España).

Nacido alrededor de 1185 - Crépy-en-Valois
Fallecido después de 1250
Caballero cruzado

It´s quite strange all, and more considering that Javaloyas is near Javalambre.

Webb
12-16-2020, 11:37 AM
The parameter is heatmap radius. On the previous map the heat of the samples of southern coast were adding to the central yellow area.
When I reduce the heatmap radius parameter then you can see a little heating on the southwest coast of Ireland (this is weighted map, so the heat area is not so obvious):

https://i.imgur.com/UfhaJML.png

Would it be too much trouble to ask you to try the same thing with DF27? Thanks.

ph2ter
12-16-2020, 12:13 PM
Would it be too much trouble to ask you to try the same thing with DF27? Thanks.
https://i.imgur.com/qXAORRg.png

Riverman
12-16-2020, 12:40 PM
A weighted map for E-S2979 would be great to check for me. Just in case you still have some time and motivation left :)

ph2ter
12-16-2020, 12:47 PM
A weighted map for E-S2979 would be great to check for me. Just in case you still have some time and motivation left :)
A weighted map means that I must manually extract country of origin from savedloc textual field.
I am not in that mood anymore. Sorry.

mokordo
12-16-2020, 12:49 PM
.....OR]

I supose that about R-YP5000 there are not enough samples to provide any really representative map.

ph2ter
12-17-2020, 07:48 AM
A weighted map for E-S2979 would be great to check for me. Just in case you still have some time and motivation left :)
non-weighted
https://i.imgur.com/WjEzD2x.png

ph2ter
12-17-2020, 07:48 AM
I supose that about R-YP5000 there are not enough samples to provide any really representative map.
https://i.imgur.com/WtIjfbk.png

Artmar
12-17-2020, 08:45 AM
YP5000 map
I don't think there are so many samples of YP5000 in that many countries. Where is the data taken from?

mokordo
12-17-2020, 09:26 AM
https://i.imgur.com/WtIjfbk.png

Thank you.

So, at least there is another YP5000 in Spain, it seems that in Alicante...

mokordo
12-17-2020, 09:28 AM
I don't think there are so many samples of YP5000 in that many countries. Where is the data taken from?

In the Yfull tree, there were 2 samples, one from Germany and another one from an "unknow country". Maybe there are from R1a FTDNA project.

Artmar
12-17-2020, 09:35 AM
In the Yfull tree, there were 2 samples, one from Germany and another one from an "unknow country". Maybe there are from R1a FTDNA project.
I am an admin at R1a Project :). I have to check whether I missed something.

ph2ter
12-17-2020, 10:46 AM
I don't think there are so many samples of YP5000 in that many countries. Where is the data taken from?
You are right.
I was careless. These samples are only adviced to make such test.

I have only one sample from Germany confirmed to be YP5000.

mokordo
12-17-2020, 12:43 PM
I am an admin at R1a Project :). I have to check whether I missed something.

Soon you will have a lonely Spanish member.

mokordo
12-17-2020, 12:48 PM
You are right.
I was careless. These samples are only adviced to make such test.

I have only one sample from Germany confirmed to be YP5000.

I am YP5000 too, but I was tested by Yseq so my sample will not appear in Yfull tree till I get my FTDNA results.(I guess)

Riverman
12-17-2020, 12:59 PM
I am YP5000 too, but I was tested by Yseq so my sample will not appear in Yfull tree till I get my FTDNA results.(I guess)

You need to upload and pay for it on YFull. If its tested by Yseq, you should be able to upload it?

mokordo
12-17-2020, 02:38 PM
You need to upload and pay for it on YFull. If its tested by Yseq, you should be able to upload it?

I am not sure, as far as I know I can´t upload Yseq results to Yfull tree.

I will ask them if it is possible.

JMcB
12-17-2020, 03:33 PM
I am not sure, as far as I know I can´t upload Yseq results to Yfull tree.

I will ask them if it is possible.

I believe you can only upload a YSEQ test if it was one of their WGS tests. As far I as I know, YFull will not accept SNP Packs or single SNP tests for upload.

Riverman
12-17-2020, 04:15 PM
I believe you can only upload a YSEQ test if it was one of their WGS tests. As far I as I know, YFull will not accept SNP Packs or single SNP tests for upload.

That's correct, because SNP packs might miss the terminal ones without which YFull is pretty much useless. I thought he might have done the full test rather than just packs.

MitchellSince1893
12-23-2020, 12:11 AM
The parameter is heatmap radius. On the previous map the heat of the samples of southern coast were adding to the central yellow area.
When I reduce the heatmap radius parameter then you can see a little heating on the southwest coast of Ireland (this is weighted map, so the heat area is not so obvious):


Thanks for doing these. A zoomed in side-by-side of DF27 & U152 in the Hiberno-Britannic Isles. For the most part, they have a similar distribution.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/69/a1/15/69a1157e6215ab6ba85055897f0bd7a2.png

Kinda reminds me of the area of the coin minting, pre roman tribes in Britain below, yet both DF27 & U152 extend further into Northern England towards Scotland, and into Cornwall (especially DF27)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b9/08/f2/b908f297dccb97f317fb8e1b9d999af1.jpg

Or Romano Britain

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_Roman_rule_in_Britain#/media/File%3AEnd.of.Roman.rule.in.Britain.383.410.jpg

If there is still any genetic remnant, of the Jutes in Kent, Isle of Wight, and Hampshire; it doesn't appear that the Jutes had much DF27. Also, while U152 is strong in East Anglia, it looks sparse in the former Anglian coastal areas in Northumbria (Lothan, Bernica, Deira) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Northumbria_802.jpg/1200px-Northumbria_802.jpg

corner
12-23-2020, 10:09 AM
Also, while U152 is strong in East Anglia, it looks sparse in the former Anglian coastal areas in Northumbria (Lothan, Bernica, Deira Hobbyist yDNA coverage is more sparse here than other regions. Seems like heat maps for all haplogroups often have cold spots along the coast between the Tees and the Wash.

MitchellSince1893
12-23-2020, 04:57 PM
Hobbyist yDNA coverage is more sparse here than other regions. Seems like heat maps for all haplogroups often have cold spots along the coast between the Tees and the Wash.

Not a hotspot map but here is a U152 map (and many others) I made in 2016. Used FTDNA projects for data. Based on percentages vs actual numbers.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6154-Y-DNA-Haplogroup-Percentages-and-maps-for-England-Source-FTDNA-Y-DNA-projects&p=131772&viewfull=1#post131772

peloponnesian
03-04-2021, 12:04 PM
That's correct, because SNP packs might miss the terminal ones without which YFull is pretty much useless. I thought he might have done the full test rather than just packs.

What about panels? If they find your terminal SNP is it enough? Also, what happens if you happen to have a previously unknown mutation/clade? Do they give you your clade or do you have to wait for other people to test the same as you?

Riverman
03-04-2021, 12:39 PM
What about panels? If they find your terminal SNP is it enough? Also, what happens if you happen to have a previously unknown mutation/clade? Do they give you your clade or do you have to wait for other people to test the same as you?

The panels only test up to the main known subclades. Nothing which is rare or new. Based on the panels you don't know where you could end up, it always misses the final or future branches. If you have new SNPs, they being "private" as long as you don't match with another person having the same. If you match, it creates a new subclade. This can and will happen numerous times for many people, because most people don't have matches which are very close to them (0-2 mutations), which would make them close to extended family members.

Ashina
03-04-2021, 01:31 PM
R-Y19434

My dad is the only one from Turkey.

peloponnesian
03-04-2021, 02:08 PM
The panels only test up to the main known subclades. Nothing which is rare or new. Based on the panels you don't know where you could end up, it always misses the final or future branches. If you have new SNPs, they being "private" as long as you don't match with another person having the same. If you match, it creates a new subclade. This can and will happen numerous times for many people, because most people don't have matches which are very close to them (0-2 mutations), which would make them close to extended family members.

Thanks a lot. I was thinking of doing the panel but now I'm having second thoughts because there are very few clades downstream from my own and I suspect I'm not in any of them.

Riverman
03-04-2021, 03:09 PM
Thanks a lot. I was thinking of doing the panel but now I'm having second thoughts because there are very few clades downstream from my own and I suspect I'm not in any of them.

Rather skip it and save for a full test like WGS from YSeq or BigY from FTDNA. Then you get the real thing and might one day being assigned to a specific younger subclade. The panel is a waste of money if you have done a basic test like with Living DNA or 23andme which gives you some idea about your general haplogroup.