PDA

View Full Version : Iranian G25



Pages : [1] 2

Xeon
08-14-2020, 05:38 AM
Not sure if there's already a thread for Iranian G25 coords but does anyone have any Iranian coordinates for comparisons? Feel free to post your own.

I am half Lur (western Iran) and half Persian (central Iran)


Xeon_scaled,0.08992,0.112724,-0.064111,-0.039083,-0.045855,-0.006972,-0.00094,0.000692,-0.035996,-0.015126,0.006658,-0.005095,0.003122,-0.007432,0.008007,0.00716,0.004694,0.005068,0.0031 42,-0.008254,0.000749,-0.009769,0.004807,-0.002771,0.005628

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.2807% / 0.02280652

37.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
24.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.4 Levant_PPNB
11.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
4.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.4 Nganassan
0.6 MAR_Taforalt

pegasus
08-14-2020, 06:19 AM
Not sure if there's already a thread for Iranian G25 coords but does anyone have any Iranian coordinates for comparisons?

I am half Lur (western Iran) and half Persian (central Iran)


Xeon_scaled,0.08992,0.112724,-0.064111,-0.039083,-0.045855,-0.006972,-0.00094,0.000692,-0.035996,-0.015126,0.006658,-0.005095,0.003122,-0.007432,0.008007,0.00716,0.004694,0.005068,0.0031 42,-0.008254,0.000749,-0.009769,0.004807,-0.002771,0.005628


Iranian_Bandari,0.0563425,0.076165,-0.0876805,0.0053833,-0.058062,0.014456,0.0008617,-0.0017307,-0.0229067,-0.0190437,0.0020568,-0.0005495,0.0047325,-0.003303,0.0110612,0.0195127,-0.0060847,0.0058908,0.004504,-0.0171958,0.0007485,-0.0107577,0.0024855,-0.009439,0.0058875
Iranian_Fars,0.0885141,0.0956389,-0.0638664,-0.024092,-0.0460899,0.0007546,0.0044097,-0.0052124,-0.0285852,-0.0148255,0.0007832,-0.0010579,0.0047396,-0.00255,0.0045506,0.0118005,-0.0054146,0.0015202,0.0019668,-0.008938,-0.0004036,-0.0033604,0.0012905,-0.0044371,0.0040645
Iranian_Jew,0.092829,0.1321318,-0.0645294,-0.0642411,-0.0321084,-0.0145023,0.0006006,-0.0045128,-0.012067,-0.0026324,0.0063512,-0.002681,0.0113312,-4.6e-05,-0.0018849,0.0097084,-0.0058819,0.0028296,0.005838,-0.0116306,-4.17e-05,-0.0009341,-0.0038618,-0.0004687,0.0005054
Iranian_Lor,0.0878713,0.1066306,-0.0673914,-0.035207,-0.04647,-0.0066655,0.0049585,-0.0040846,-0.0278356,-0.0126473,0.00354,-0.0009141,0.0036273,-0.0007707,0.0054153,0.0096127,-0.0039114,0.0041173,0.0059958,-0.0108927,-0.0014599,-0.005008,-0.0020705,-0.0059406,0.005748
Iranian_Mazandarani,0.0899202,0.1019592,-0.078969,-0.0211888,-0.0587494,0.0059124,0.0076142,-0.0050536,-0.0413752,-0.0212669,-0.001364,-0.0018884,-7.42e-05,0.0011561,0.0055918,0.0107134,-0.0063759,0.0032811,0.0041982,-0.0140192,-0.0009108,-0.0076911,-0.001553,-0.0053742,0.0050414
Iranian_Seyyed,0.0813834,0.0918039,-0.0670521,-0.0250971,-0.0456393,-0.001255,0.0037131,-0.0039691,-0.0256882,-0.0161279,0.0009419,-0.0049007,0.007106,-0.0033718,0.005836,0.0132854,-0.0052543,0.0026733,0.0015334,-0.0073411,0.0014723,-0.0024483,0.0010722,-0.0061093,0.0049216
Iranian_Zoroastrian,0.0916275,0.1077846,-0.0632191,-0.0225219,-0.045365,0.0040439,0.0018586,-0.005318,-0.028373,-0.0168403,-0.0002509,0.000361,0.0043652,-0.0049418,0.0071253,0.0135542,-0.0035262,0.002885,0.0017313,-0.0087712,-0.0032216,-0.0037657,0.0006777,-0.003489,0.0053669
Kurdish,0.0961287,0.114847,-0.0617106,-0.0374093,-0.0420496,-0.0071751,0.0067085,-0.0027271,-0.0304182,-0.0135847,0.0002955,-0.0004632,0.0019326,-0.0017389,0.0034053,0.0138254,0.0018016,0.0018313, 0.0001142,-0.0092317,0.0005671,-0.0052384,0.0002241,-0.0027385,0.0027868

Magnetic
08-14-2020, 03:31 PM
hi

I run a model for you


Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.7735% / 0.02773461

33.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
20.6 Levant_PPNC
18.4 TUR_Barcin_N
14.4 GEO_CHG
13.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N



btw. can I see your Eurogenes K12b results please ?

Xeon
08-14-2020, 06:19 PM
hi

I run a model for you


Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.7735% / 0.02773461

33.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
20.6 Levant_PPNC
18.4 TUR_Barcin_N
14.4 GEO_CHG
13.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N



btw. can I see your Eurogenes K12b results please ?

thanks for the model, what would yours look like with the same model? and do you happen to have them for the the g25 averages posted earlier?

Population
Western European 3.49 Pct
Siberian 0.49 Pct
East African 1.09 Pct
West Central Asian 22.14 Pct
South Asian 3.96 Pct
West African -
Caucasus 38.93 Pct
Finnish 1.70 Pct
Mediterranean 13.69 Pct
Southwest Asian 13.09 Pct
North European 1.41 Pct
East Asian -

Magnetic
08-14-2020, 06:45 PM
thanks for the model, what would yours look like with the same model? and do you happen to have them for the the g25 averages posted earlier?

Population
Western European 3.49 Pct
Siberian 0.49 Pct
East African 1.09 Pct
West Central Asian 22.14 Pct
South Asian 3.96 Pct
West African -
Caucasus 38.93 Pct
Finnish 1.70 Pct
Mediterranean 13.69 Pct
Southwest Asian 13.09 Pct
North European 1.41 Pct
East Asian -


you are welcome brother :)


you can find them here :

http://*************************/


this is me with the same model :


Target: Magnetic_scaled
Distance: 3.4142% / 0.03414224

32.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
24.6 TUR_Barcin_N
19.4 Levant_PPNC
15.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.0 GEO_CHG
2.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

David Bush
08-17-2020, 08:24 PM
39039

Which lurs are you from?
South?
North?
Bakhtiari?
Filly?

Xeon
08-17-2020, 09:29 PM
39039

Which lurs are you from?
South?
North?
Bakhtiari?
Filly?

North, so from Khorramabad, very close to Kurdistan province.
Thanks for that model btw, very interesting to see a much higher Kurdish affinity than lur itself.
the laz is interesting as well. do you know of other iranian coords you can run the same model on?

StarDS9
08-17-2020, 10:43 PM
North, so from Khorramabad, very close to Kurdistan province.
Thanks for that model btw, very interesting to see a much higher Kurdish affinity than lur itself.
the laz is interesting as well. do you know of other iranian coords you can run the same model on?

Lors are very similar to Kurds specially Feylis. I would suspect Kurds from West Iran in regions like Kermanshah and Ilam will be near identical to Lors
Where as Kurmanjis in Iran will be cross between Lors and Azeris from Iran.

StarDS9
08-17-2020, 10:48 PM
Also I am also Ydna G2a :)

StarDS9
08-17-2020, 11:05 PM
39039

Which lurs are you from?
South?
North?
Bakhtiari?
Filly?

I think you have you used too many different groups, even I get weird results with that run. It's better to use known ancestry with only around half a dozen groups.

This is better for Xeon

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 1.8209% / 0.01820890
48.8 Iranian_Lor
40.4 Kurdish
7.0 Georgian_Laz
3.0 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.8 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.0 Assyrian
0.0 Georgian_Jew
0.0 Iranian_Fars
0.0 Iranian_Jew

Xeon
08-18-2020, 12:29 AM
I think you have you used too many different groups, even I get weird results with that run. It's better to use known ancestry with only around half a dozen groups.

This is better for Xeon

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 1.8209% / 0.01820890
48.8 Iranian_Lor
40.4 Kurdish
7.0 Georgian_Laz
3.0 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.8 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.0 Assyrian
0.0 Georgian_Jew
0.0 Iranian_Fars
0.0 Iranian_Jew

the first fit does however make more sense in my case considering the fact that my parents come from different areas of Iran.
The thing is, only one side of my family is directly from Loristan, while the other is from central Iran.
Nonetheless, I am always matched with Kurdish samples, both on g25 and gedmatch, as my closest match than to other Iranian groups. My Persian side may have been very mixed by itself while my Lurish side has
stayed very consistent genetically speaking. Which is why my Kurdish affinity is much higher I would assume.

David Bush
08-18-2020, 08:53 AM
North, so from Khorramabad, very close to Kurdistan province.
Thanks for that model btw, very interesting to see a much higher Kurdish affinity than lur itself.
the laz is interesting as well. do you know of other iranian coords you can run the same model on?

I used singles for comparison(modern individual samples)
Because I know the results of people are not the same, and if we compare with the integrated set, the accuracy decreases
I compared your sample with all the Iranian samples in the calculator and the Lori samples in the G25 are related to Lorestan and the city of Khorramabad, which was published in one of the 2016 studies.

DMXX
08-22-2020, 06:59 AM
For future reference - Some of the relevant population averages in G25 aren't ideal for Iranian (or Iranian-related) populations.

As an example - The "Iranian Azeri" group, if I recall correctly, is a merger of the ?Yunusbayev (going on memory here) Iranian Azeris with Republic Azeri samples (I seem to recall inferring that based on the sample codes used in the original paper).

Similarly, as StarDS9 and some of our other Kurdish users have pointed out, the "Kurdish" average has a couple of individuals who appear to have cryptic (or known?) Anatolian admixture of some sort.

There's also the longstanding issue of representation - The current roster IMHO doesn't afford sufficient regional specificity to flesh out inter-relatedness patterns to any significant degree.

As an example, both StarDS9 and I seem to benefit from the addition of Iranian Zoroastrians in models, despite neither of us having any ancestry from modern Yazd-adjacent Zoroastrians (he's mostly Kurdish from ?Turkey with known 1/8th Circassian ancestry and ?distant Turkish; I'm a pan-N Iranian Azeri-Northern Persian mix, genealogically shifted towards the Azeri side).

Iranian Lurs are almost certainly going to be relatively close to all of their neighbours (Bakhtiaris, Feyli Kurds, Qashqais potentially). Finescale affinity ranking... Don't think we're there just yet. We'd ideally need tribal breakdowns at the least (akin to the emerging picture with the Pashtuns).

Magnetic
08-22-2020, 07:09 AM
Similarly, as StarDS9 and some of our other Kurdish users have pointed out, the "Kurdish" average has a couple of individuals who appear to have cryptic (or known?) Anatolian admixture of some sort.

.

what do you mean ? kurds have anatolian admixture by default . if you mean that some of the kurdish samples have likely anatolian turk or armenian admix then those people shall reveal themselves if they have known ancestry . otherwise you guys are going by speculation . I am one of the people who StarDS "accuses" (if I might take this term) to having such ancestry . I dont rule out some distant turkish admix given my higher than average east eurasian ...however both my mother and father said they are fully kurdish and dont know any turkish ancestor (nor armenian) . I am kurdish . period

I find this nitpicking of the kurdish sampling a bit annoying . furthermore if the "purity" of the kurdish sample is so important why is StarDS in it ? (I assume he is in it) he has KNOWN Circassian ancestry . double standard

also he is in no better position to decide who is suited to be in the kurdish sample and who isnt than us other kurds in the sample

DMXX
08-22-2020, 07:25 AM
what do you mean ? kurds have anatolian admixture by default . if you mean that some of the kurdish samples have likely anatolian turk or armenian admix then those people shall reveal themselves if they have known ancestry . otherwise you guys are going by speculation . I am one of the people who StarDS "accuses" (if I might take this term) to having such ancestry . I dont rule out some distant turkish admix given my higher than average east eurasian ...however both my mother and father said they are fully kurdish and dont know any turkish ancestor (nor armenian) . I am kurdish . period

I find this nitpicking of the kurdish sampling a bit annoying . furthermore if the "purity" of the kurdish sample is so important why is StarDS in it ? (I assume he is in it) he has KNOWN Circassian ancestry . double standard

also he is in no better position to decide who is suited to be in the kurdish sample and who isnt than us other kurds in the sample

This strikes me as a minor overreaction to the overarching point (specifically, the preempted assertions).

Certain liberties seem to have been taken with the formation of averages for some of the populations in G25. These likely weren't done by Davidski, but by third party enthusiasts who'd collated the data, formed averages and made them available for subsequent dispersal.

We likely don't have a sufficient number of samples for each of the discussed populations. Having said that, based on the G25 samples that are categorised as "Kurdish" in places like poi's old nMonte runner (now defunct unfortunately) or GenoPlot (https://genoplot.com/), there are a couple of samples within them that apparently score a good deal more Anatolian-related admix than the others.
Whether they're simply representing some unknown substructure among Turkish Kurds, actual widespread cryptic Armenian and/or Turkish ancestry, or it's a simple reflection of the inherent diversity within that population is open to speculation.

StarDS9 is perfectly entitled to make a tentative inference as to the presence of cryptic recent Anatolian admix (or the alternative) based on the basic statistical data we currently have. He isn't the only Kurdish-descent user to make that inference.
If you oppose that conclusion, and if you're sufficiently annoyed by it, you're welcome to demonstrate otherwise based on the data we currently have.

Your sample isn't incorporated in that average, so your personal involvement in the discussion is tangentially related at best.

Magnetic
08-22-2020, 07:35 AM
This strikes me as a minor overreaction to the overarching point (specifically, the preempted assertions).

it is not an overreaction . I am just sharing my opinion as a kurdish user . thats all . I am just straight to the point and when something bothers me I will say it





Whether they're simply representing some unknown substructure among Turkish Kurds, actual widespread cryptic Armenian and/or Turkish ancestry, or it's a simple reflection of the inherent diversity within that population is open to speculation.

thats exactly what I am saying . you and him are speculating



StarDS9 is perfectly entitled to make a tentative inference as to the presence of cryptic recent Anatolian admix (or the alternative) based on the basic statistical data we currently have. He isn't the only Kurdish-descent user to make that inference.

yeah like mori yek I know ...the funny thing is that he is an outlier and scores a little different compared to most of us other kurds .




If you oppose that conclusion, and if you're sufficiently annoyed by it, you're welcome to demonstrate otherwise based on the data we currently have.

and what exactly am I supposed to demonstrate ? sorry but I dont understand what you mean . so this basically seems to me "explain why certain kurds in the sample dont come out like what we imagine a kurd is supposed to come out like"



Your sample isn't incorporated in that average, so your personal involvement in the discussion is tangentially related at best.

I was thinking about the samples poi gathered . poi added me in his sampling

DMXX
08-22-2020, 07:55 AM
thats exactly what I am saying . you and him are speculating


Re-read the post you quoted carefully - Do not incorrectly attribute actions onto me.



and what exactly am I supposed to demonstrate ? sorry but I dont understand what you mean . so this basically seems to me "explain why certain kurds in the sample dont come out like what we imagine a kurd is supposed to come out like"


The bolded part is quite asinine.

I recommend avoiding such passive-aggressive language if you're aiming to have a productive discussion (rather than merely expressing your annoyance).

Don't mind suggesting ideas to you. One statistically robust idea (which probably surpasses whatever informal process the other guys used) you could try is:
1) Collate all the Kurdish samples in GenoPlot (looks like they have the same samples as poi's runner)
2) Perform a basic ancients run (Titris Hoyuk + Hajji Firuz + Sintashta + Gonur1_BA + Hovsgol_BA would be my suggestion)
3) Calculate the mean and SD data for the Titris Hoyuk and Hajji Firuz scores
4) Rank order the samples based on those scores based on Titris Hoyuk
5) Observe whether the >1 S.D. samples for TH also happen to be the < 1 S.D. samples for HF

The above approach rests on the established position that modern Anatolian populations (f.ex. Trabzon Turks, Armenians) are more Titris Hoyuk-shifted than they are Hajji Firuz (the latter is particularly representative of W. Iranian derived populations).



I was thinking about the samples poi gathered . poi added me in his sampling

You're in GenoPlot, but you're not listed as one of the reference Kurds that StarDS9 and co. had focused on previously (f.ex. Kurdish ► kurd1159 ( Iraq )Kurdish ► kurd1156 ( Iraq )Kurdish ► kurd1101 ( Iraq )).

Magnetic
08-22-2020, 08:04 AM
Re-read the post you quoted carefully - Do not incorrectly attribute actions onto me.

The bolded part is quite asinine.

I recommend avoiding such passive-aggressive language if you're aiming to have a productive discussion (rather than merely expressing your annoyance).

I didnt mean any offense . I just meant that it seems like that to me . if I am wrong with the assumption thats good . but the term asinine is not exactly a nice thing to say . but anyway no problem if my way of writing is a problem for you I will try to choose my words more wisely




Don't mind suggesting ideas to you. One statistically robust idea (which probably surpasses whatever informal process the other guys used) you could try is:
1) Collate all the Kurdish samples in GenoPlot (looks like they have the same samples as poi's runner)
2) Perform a basic ancients run (Titris Hoyuk + Hajji Firuz + Sintashta + Gonur1_BA + Hovsgol_BA would be my suggestion)
3) Calculate the mean and SD data for the Titris Hoyuk and Hajji Firuz scores
4) Rank order the samples based on those scores based on Titris Hoyuk
5) Observe whether the >1 S.D. samples for TH also happen to be the < 1 S.D. samples for HF

using hajji firuz and gonur1 at the same time seems illogical to me ....





The above approach rests on the established position that modern Anatolian populations (f.ex. Trabzon Turks, Armenians) are more Titris Hoyuk-shifted than they are Hajji Firuz (the latter is particularly representative of W. Iranian derived populations).




....and ok lets say I do this and some get more of this tetris stuff :p (I had to make this joke) . what then ? what conclusion will you take out of this ? will you imply those kurds are armenian or trabzon turkish admixed ? hmm...





You're in GenoPlot, but you're not listed as one of the reference Kurds that StarDS9 and co. had focused on previously (f.ex. Kurdish ► kurd1159 ( Iraq )Kurdish ► kurd1156 ( Iraq )Kurdish ► kurd1101 ( Iraq )).

ok then nevermind . however it seems many of the samples are from iraq so the likelyness that they are armenian or anatolian turkish admixed is very low to begin with

Buxoro
08-22-2020, 08:10 AM
hi

I run a model for you


Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.7735% / 0.02773461

33.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
20.6 Levant_PPNC
18.4 TUR_Barcin_N
14.4 GEO_CHG
13.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N



btw. can I see your Eurogenes K12b results please ?

Can you share the source for this model?

Magnetic
08-22-2020, 08:11 AM
Can you share the source for this model?

edit : hold on the link doesnt work . I will post it in a minute

Magnetic
08-22-2020, 08:14 AM
Can you share the source for this model?

here you go :)


IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Levant_PPNC,0.067156,0.168578,-0.023004,-0.150842,0.028621,-0.071954,-0.013866,-0.017999,0.077719,0.037905,0.006496,-0.013188,0.032705,-0.000275,-0.014929,0.008486,-0.000913,-0.007728,-0.013575,0.012381,-0.009982,0.01014,0.002958,0.003012,-0.001916
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N,0.0162197,-0.4440402,0.0722185,-0.0511148,-0.0373912,-0.0395328,0.0034075,0.0084802,0.0064935,0.019408,-0.048595,-0.004833,-0.0030848,0.0086702,-0.0096025,-0.0133915,-0.0007825,0.0089,0.0174408,0.0100362,0.008828,-0.027729,-0.0174702,-0.00244,-0.0145795

DMXX
08-22-2020, 08:18 AM
I didnt mean any offense . I just meant that it seems like that to me . if I am wrong with the assumption thats good . but the term asinine is not exactly a nice thing to say . but anyway no problem if my way of writing is a problem for you I will try to choose my words more wisely


No problem.
To clarify - "asinine" was used to describe the silliness of implying StarDS9 and I were forwarding a particular idea, when my original post made clear that I'm citing another individual's position (I don't know what the real picture is and have no preconceived ideas, as my post demonstrates).
No aspersions towards you as an individual.



using hajji firuz and gonur1 at the same time seems illogical to me ....


Hajji Firuz ostensibly represents the W. Iranian Chalcolithic ancestral component.
A Turanian agriculturalist-derived entity is definitely required to account for the apparent "normalisation" of Iran_N-related levels that's observed in groups like Kurds, Azeris, Lurs etc. after other ancestral populations (e.g. MLBA steppe) are added in.




....and ok lets say I do this and some get more of this tetris stuff :p (I had to make this joke) . what then ? what conclusion will you take out of this ? will you imply those kurds are armenian or trabzon turkish admixed ? hmm...


Please see my post again.
It's the specific relationship between TH and HF proportions which would give us a firm basis to either reject or entertain the idea of surplus Anatolian-related admix in Kurds (or, at least, a subgroup of them, which was StarDS9's informal assessment).
Said relationship is based on standard deviation patterns.

If, for instance, you happen to be >1 S.D. TH within that cohort, but your HF remains > -1 SD, I'd have to infer that you specifically don't have substantial recent Anatolian admixture.
However, again, you are not the focal point of the discussion (feel free to include yourself in any assessment though - More data the better).



ok then nevermind . however it seems many of the samples are from iraq so the likelyness that they are armenian or anatolian turkish admixed is very low to begin with

As highlighted with the Azeri Iranian cohort, the metadata allocations may not be correct.
I seem to recall those specific Kurdish samples were identified as being Turkish Kurds (open to correction).

DMXX
08-23-2020, 05:00 AM
I don't deny any possible Armenian and/or Turkish ancestry, since I have Armenian matches and I am also from a village were some Turkish/Tatar families got Kurdified the last since the last 200 years and completely assimilated and mixed with the locals. There was also had Armenian merchant living before WWI. But I think it is still normal for Kurds being more Anatolian and Levant shifted than Zoroastrians from Yazd. I think figures like 50% anatolian admixture is oversimplification.

The Kurds from Dersim (on gedmatch) I have seen were in line with the Eurogenes Kurdish samples (which are Kurmanji from Armenia). But the ones further south in Adiyaman and the Adiyaman "diaspora" in central Anatolia are slightly more Eastern/Caucasian shifted in general. Since StarDS9 is from a province which is more related with Adiyaman, thus his results are unsurprising similar to them. But on Gedmatch I have also seen Sorani-speaking individual from Iran (Kermanshah) who were nearly identical to Kurds from Turkey and scored results like "Kurdish/Iranian + Turkish Trabzon/Armenian".

So if Kurds from Turkey score results like that it is wrong to assume that this is real Armenian admixture for sure. It is only speculation.
Also from what we know, Lors and Feyli Kurds have less steppe than the average Kurds from Turkey so how are they ancestral to Kurds when Armenians and Assyrians have even lower steppe?

Also historically the relation of Kurds and Armenians/Assyrians were not the same as the relation of Turks and Greeks. Turks were more like elites rulling over the Greek population. Kurds were not really rulling central government but were tribal and pastoral nomads/farmers, tribes appointed by various empires to collect jizya etc. They moved in independent tribes and never had any real & last standing central rule/government over the whole North Kurdistan, but principalities/tribal zones. (By the term North Kurdistan I don't mean Turkish Kurdistan, but the whole Kurmanji speaking geographic zone). Thus I don't think that they mass assimilated Armenians or Assyrians in the same sense as Turks assimilated Greeks.

If we follow a basic "staging-admix" model for the W. Iranians (an extension of the Sintashta-Petrovka -> BA/IA C Asia -> E. Urmia chain), then, it should be apparent that the "core early Kurdish" population would've been near-identical to the Old Azari, proto-Lur etc. speakers.
Ergo, following their dissemination from E. Urmia during the Median empire's expansion, that model does project forwards to predict that the "core early Kurds" (a Median-derived population) would've intermixed to some degree with the natives of SE Anatolia/N Mesopotamia during the Classical period.

I think that Magnetic's contention is that any Anatolian-like signal in Turkish Kurds is just a result of that model's natural outcome, rather than more recent admix with Assyrians, Armenians or E. Turks. In short, that practically all of any additional Anatolian admix that is seen in Kurds versus is attributable to some degree of Iranicisation during Classical times, and not from later periods.

I also think the crux of the discussion ultimately lies in just how much Anatolian-related admix the Kurd progenitors (semi-nomadic NW Iranian speakers) were after immediately after their own ancestors (which I consider to be a subset of Medes) westwards out of NW Iran.

At this current time, this looks like an open-ended situation without any definitive data indicating which of those scenarios is true (or, indeed, which combination).

The finding of Iranian Kurds who match Turkish Kurds near-completely isn't particularly surprising to me - As we're all probably aware, cross-boundary movements have occurred within the last 500 years or so (both for Kurds and other ethnic groups in the region, such as Azeris). An analogy to this is the finding of substantively Anatolian-admixed Azeris (which deviate from the norm).

Kurax
08-24-2020, 12:40 AM
If we follow a basic "staging-admix" model for the W. Iranians (an extension of the Sintashta-Petrovka -> BA/IA C Asia -> E. Urmia chain), then, it should be apparent that the "core early Kurdish" population would've been near-identical to the Old Azari, proto-Lur etc. speakers.
Ergo, following their dissemination from E. Urmia during the Median empire's expansion, that model does project forwards to predict that the "core early Kurds" (a Median-derived population) would've intermixed to some degree with the natives of SE Anatolia/N Mesopotamia during the Classical period.

I think that Magnetic's contention is that any Anatolian-like signal in Turkish Kurds is just a result of that model's natural outcome, rather than more recent admix with Assyrians, Armenians or E. Turks. In short, that practically all of any additional Anatolian admix that is seen in Kurds versus is attributable to some degree of Iranicisation during Classical times, and not from later periods.

I also think the crux of the discussion ultimately lies in just how much Anatolian-related admix the Kurd progenitors (semi-nomadic NW Iranian speakers) were after immediately after their own ancestors (which I consider to be a subset of Medes) westwards out of NW Iran.

At this current time, this looks like an open-ended situation without any definitive data indicating which of those scenarios is true (or, indeed, which combination).

The finding of Iranian Kurds who match Turkish Kurds near-completely isn't particularly surprising to me - As we're all probably aware, cross-boundary movements have occurred within the last 500 years or so (both for Kurds and other ethnic groups in the region, such as Azeris). An analogy to this is the finding of substantively Anatolian-admixed Azeris (which deviate from the norm).

I believe Northwestern Iranian speaking populations like Kurds, Lurs, Old Azeris, Tats, Talysh, Gilaks, Mazandaranis etc are Iranicized Hurrians to a significant level.

Johnny ola
08-24-2020, 01:04 AM
I believe Northwestern Iranian speaking populations like Kurds, Lurs, Old Azeris, Tats, Talysh, Gilaks, Mazandaranis etc are Iranicized Hurrians to a significant level.

They definitely have zagros mountain tribal admixture not just Hurrians,but also Kassite,Gutian,Elamite,Mannaeans etc.Iran C related..but after the arrival of IE Iranics this admixture in some way decreased.

Kurax
08-24-2020, 02:32 AM
They definitely have zagros mountain tribal admixture not just Hurrians,but also Kassite,Gutian,Elamite,Mannaeans etc.Iran C related..but after the arrival of IE Iranics this admixture in some way decreased.

Sure, but I don't think it'd be a mistake to assume that Hurrians also had Zagros admixture. Would you disagree?

DMXX
08-24-2020, 03:28 AM
I believe Northwestern Iranian speaking populations like Kurds, Lurs, Old Azeris, Tats, Talysh, Gilaks, Mazandaranis etc are Iranicized Hurrians to a significant level.

I'd think it's obvious that, based on the overwhelmingly strong general proximity between the above-stated populations and our Iranian Chalcolithic agriculturalist locations to date, we can fairly confidently determine that the largest single ancestral component in these populations is some variant of Iranian plateau agriculturalist.

However, I don't think "Iranicised Hurrians" is an accurate summary for two reasons:
1) Some of these populations, based on geographical location, derived their Iranian Chalcolithic ancestry from other populations that weren't directly related to the Hurrians.
2) The phrase "Iranicised" denotes a minority, or simple, adstratum (linguistic? genetic? cultural? not defined in your original comment) rather than a hybrid/amalgamated population (which you might've meant perhaps).

Focusing on the genetic data, from some of Davidski's old qpAdm runs involving Feyli Kurds, Lurs and Mazandaranis, the amount of Iranian Chalcolithic ancestry ranges from ~60-70%, with the remainder being represented by surplus Iran_N and Eurasian steppe (the exact proportions depend on whether EMBA or MLBA steppe pops are used). The approximate amount of "native agriculturalist" (irrespective of the intermediate historical group's identity) clearly makes up the majority.

Whether 30-40% BMAC-related + Eurasian steppe ancestry in NW Iranian speakers is sufficiently low to constitute "Iranicisation" on a genetic level is subjective. IMHO, I don't consider that phrase adequate (particularly given that individuals who approach 50:50 from that biogeographic milieu exist).

IMO, describing modern NW Iranian speakers/descendants as a complex amalgamation (or "hybridisation") of native plateau agriculturalists and Iron Age Iranic-speakers is probably the most generic (but context-preserving) summary sentence.

Kurax
08-24-2020, 04:50 AM
2) The phrase "Iranicised" denotes a minority, or simple, adstratum (linguistic? genetic? cultural? not defined in your original comment) rather than a hybrid/amalgamated population (which you might've meant perhaps).

Iranicized should mean both linguistic assimilation and genetic amalgamation.


Focusing on the genetic data, from some of Davidski's old qpAdm runs involving Feyli Kurds, Lurs and Mazandaranis, the amount of Iranian Chalcolithic ancestry ranges from ~60-70%, with the remainder being represented by surplus Iran_N and Eurasian steppe (the exact proportions depend on whether EMBA or MLBA steppe pops are used). The approximate amount of "native agriculturalist" (irrespective of the intermediate historical group's identity) clearly makes up the majority.

Whether 30-40% BMAC-related + Eurasian steppe ancestry in NW Iranian speakers is sufficiently low to constitute "Iranicisation" on a genetic level is subjective. IMHO, I don't consider that phrase adequate (particularly given that individuals who approach 50:50 from that biogeographic milieu exist).

IMO, describing modern NW Iranian speakers/descendants as a complex amalgamation (or "hybridisation") of native plateau agriculturalists and Iron Age Iranic-speakers is probably the most generic (but context-preserving) summary sentence.

The NW Iranian-speaking populations like I mentioned have genetic affinity to Tepe Hasanlu, which Davidski considers to be a probable Hurrian site. Most likely though, Tepe Hasanlu was a Mannaean site.

Johnny ola
08-24-2020, 10:58 AM
Sure, but I don't think it'd be a mistake to assume that Hurrians also had Zagros admixture. Would you disagree?

I think hurrians were multi ethnic tribes. Some were an ofshout of K.A. while others were prbobably closer to BA anatolia(Arslanteppe etc).Others were in contact with Amorites and Mittani(alalakh samples etc). I am waiting the new K.A samples from northwest Iran to see how identical they are with those from Armenia.

kyp.snow
08-24-2020, 03:46 PM
My father (from Zanjan originally):



Distance to: Father_regularkit
0.02603662 Azeri
0.03338554 Turkish_Adana
0.03372914 Azeri_Turkey
0.03626488 Turkish_Central
0.03714211 Iranian_Fars
0.03863728 Azeri_Dagestan
0.03889267 Turkish_Kayseri
0.04078618 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.04111983 Iranian_Seyyed
0.04227904 Ezid
0.04321543 Iranian_Lor
0.04484749 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.04540598 Turkish_North
0.04556223 Kurdish
0.04841788 Turkish_Southwest
0.04868205 Turkish_Istanbul
0.04973091 Turkish_South
0.05109277 Turkish_Northwest
0.05145289 Turkish_Aydin
0.05442974 Kumyk
0.05553976 Turkish_Balikesir
0.05595084 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.06073224 Kabardin
0.06206089 Karachay
0.06385229 Cherkes
0.06393435 Circassian
0.06489538 Abazin
0.06545111 Parsi_Pakistan
0.06744648 Georgian_Jew
0.06762054 Balkar



Target: Father_regularkit
Distance: 1.8183% / 0.01818321 | ADC: 0.25x
24.6 Azeri
20.2 Turkish_North
19.4 Iranian_Mazandarani
14.8 Turkish_Adana
9.2 Turkish_Southwest
8.2 Parsi_India
2.2 Turkish_Istanbul

Target: Father_Regularkit
Distance: 2.0694% / 0.02069380 | ADC: 0.5x
68.0 Azeri
16.4 Turkish_North
10.4 Parsi_Pakistan
4.2 Turkish_Adana
1.0 Turkish_Southwest



Target: Father_scaled
Distance: 1.9078% / 0.01907814
26.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
24.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
16.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.8 Han
4.2 Levant_PPNB
2.2 Nganassan


Target: FatherKyp
Distance: 1.5896% / 0.01589648
31.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
23.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
8.6 GEO_CHG
6.8 Levant_Natufian

kyp.snow
08-24-2020, 05:00 PM
Turkish Istanbul and Turkish Adana have kurdish individuals in it. Turkish southwest are diverse and some of them have kurdish admix and are from provinces with large kurdish presence.

What do your fathers model look like if you remove Parsi India and Mazandarani?

Actually I shouldn't remove Mazandaran because one of his grandmothers was Mazandarani. But here you go:

Target: KypFather_scaled
Distance: 1.9164% / 0.01916419 | ADC: 0.25x
52.8 Azeri
16.4 Turkish_Adana
13.6 Turkish_North
5.2 Kurdish
4.2 Kashmiri_Pandit
4.0 Balochi
3.0 Turkish_Southwest
0.8 Turkish_Istanbul

Target: KypFather_scaled
Distance: 2.1174% / 0.02117448 | ADC: 0.5x
81.4 Azeri
10.6 Turkish_Southwest
4.0 Turkish_Adana
3.6 Kashmiri_Pandit
0.4 Turkish_North

kyp.snow
08-24-2020, 05:36 PM
I see. The reason I said that was because Mazandaranis are high in Iran N and people from western parts of Iran need additional western source for compensate. I think your father is rich in Turkic admixture and get better fits with Anatolian Turks. Your father is likely mostly local Iranian + Turkmen.

You can actually model Kurds like this with good fits, but of course Kurds don't have Greek ancestry:

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.3817% / 0.01381704



64.4
Iranian_Mazandarani




35.6
Greek_Central_Anatolia




People from republic Azerbaijan are also richer in Anatolia N and CHG than people from Iranian Azerbaijan if I recall correct.

Yes makes sense, tried this kind of model with my father + Turkmens from Uzbekistan as Turkic proxy

Target: FatherKyp_scaled
Distance: 1.6547% / 0.01654708
41.8 Iranian_Mazandarani
29.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
28.6 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

I think my father is quite Anatolian_N shifted too:

Target: FatherKyp
Distance: 1.5896% / 0.01589648
31.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
23.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
8.6 GEO_CHG
6.8 Levant_Natufian

kyp.snow
08-24-2020, 05:56 PM
Yes. Your right they are less mixed. There may be some real Anatolian admixture/migrations in Iran but I don't think it is significant.

Karakhanids are also good if not better source.

1. yep. Native population of NW Iran was more Anatolian shifted to begin with in comparison to the rest of Iran. Talysh and Kurds are good examples of that. (this already has been discussed in this thread aswell)
2. In case of Azeris one also has to factor in that a big part of Azerbaijanis has origins as Anatolian Turkmens who migrated in 15/16th century into Iran. By that point they already must have been mixed with Anatolians. But I think point 1 is more significant.

Nassbean
08-24-2020, 06:11 PM
Not sure if there's already a thread for Iranian G25 coords but does anyone have any Iranian coordinates for comparisons? Feel free to post your own.

I am half Lur (western Iran) and half Persian (central Iran)


Xeon_scaled,0.08992,0.112724,-0.064111,-0.039083,-0.045855,-0.006972,-0.00094,0.000692,-0.035996,-0.015126,0.006658,-0.005095,0.003122,-0.007432,0.008007,0.00716,0.004694,0.005068,0.0031 42,-0.008254,0.000749,-0.009769,0.004807,-0.002771,0.005628

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.2807% / 0.02280652

37.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
24.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.4 Levant_PPNB
11.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
4.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.4 Nganassan
0.6 MAR_Taforalt



Wow I didn't know iranians had such small amount of anatolian and steppe ancestry quite ironic for the land of aryans (no offense)

Magnetic
08-24-2020, 06:19 PM
Wow I didn't know iranians had such small amount of anatolian and steppe ancestry quite ironic for the land of aryans (no offense)

they have a lot more . the modelling is just nonsense since kura araxes has a lot of anatolia in it already

Magnetic
08-24-2020, 06:22 PM
they have a lot more . the modelling is just nonsense since kura araxes has a lot of anatolia in it already


Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 3.4438% / 0.03443785

42.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.2 TUR_Barcin_N
17.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.2 Levant_PPNC

Nassbean
08-24-2020, 06:23 PM
they have a lot more . the modelling is just nonsense since kura araxes has a lot of anatolia in it already

the model you made for the OP is better ? If yes it's still surprising to me

Magnetic
08-24-2020, 06:24 PM
the model you made for the OP is better ? If yes it's still surprising to me

yes it is

nothing surprising about it tbh

Nassbean
08-24-2020, 06:24 PM
Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 3.4438% / 0.03443785

42.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.2 TUR_Barcin_N
17.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.2 Levant_PPNC

can you model your people too pls ?

Magnetic
08-24-2020, 06:26 PM
can you model your people too pls ?

with the same model ?

here is my result

Distance: 3.6900% / 0.03690037

37.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
25.6 TUR_Barcin_N
19.2 Levant_PPNC
18.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Magnetic
08-24-2020, 06:29 PM
you can also use Anatolia Tepecik Ciftlik

Target: Magnetic_scaled
Distance: 3.3979% / 0.03397884

49.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
33.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Nassbean
08-24-2020, 06:43 PM
you can also use Anatolia Tepecik Ciftlik

Target: Magnetic_scaled
Distance: 3.3979% / 0.03397884

49.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
33.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

strangely I also got higher amount of anatolian with this tepecik I wonder if it's not because these anatolians had steppe ancestry while barcin didn't ?

Magnetic
08-24-2020, 06:47 PM
strangely I also got higher amount of anatolian with this tepecik I wonder if it's not because these anatolians had steppe ancestry while barcin didn't ?

tepecik ciftlik has more levant in it while barcin is more west med shifted . I think tepecik also has some CHG in it

this is where barcin is from :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Latrans-Turkey_location_Bursa.svg/1920px-Latrans-Turkey_location_Bursa.svg.png


this is where tepecik ciftlik is from

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Ni%C4%9Fde_in_Turkey.svg/600px-Ni%C4%9Fde_in_Turkey.svg.png

Nassbean
08-24-2020, 06:55 PM
tepecik ciftlik has more levant in it while barcin is more west med shifted . I think tepecik also has some CHG in it

this is where barcin is from :




this is where tepecik ciftlik is from




True now by changing it with EEF from Iberia my levant_PPNC went from 0 to 20%

ThaYamamoto
08-25-2020, 01:47 AM
Whats going on guys quick question - before I go on a kiswahili speaker/culturally so I can't offer much about where I think ancestry is coming from. I've not been able to discern where my MENA ancestry comes from (family claimed Yemen but it seems unlikely). Here's a messy model I spun out just to compare with the most "west asian" shifted north-west South Asians in my sheets - note double the Hajji Fayruz score. Does Seh Gabi indicate anything?


39143

39144

Recently, I have a bunch of Ancestry/23andme matches that I can't figure out - four of them are from same family which is weird cuz I've never had a familial match before. Generic Muslim names except for the surnames Ketabdar, Mehmet, Alinejad (can't see the last two lady's cuz they won't connect on ancestry/23andme). I know of Kurdish folk and Turk's settled in Mombasa/Zanzibar but no idea if this kind of ancestry is present in myself. I can attach these peoples results if you guys can figure out if they are an Iranian group or otherwise? On PCAs I drop off more toward Yemen/Egypt but its hard to tell cuz I'm still too near the South Asian cline, or rather some of them are too near to me.

edit: please note I'm of tha belief that nMonte greatly depresses SSA in individuals with high basal/Hotu/IranN ancestry - this might skewer things a little bit.

kyp.snow
08-25-2020, 06:24 AM
Generic Muslim names except for the surnames Ketabdar, Mehmet, Alinejad (can't see the last two lady's cuz they won't connect on ancestry/23andme).

From their names they seem to be Iranian. Mehmet might be from Turkey (possibly Kurdish).

NK19191
08-25-2020, 12:57 PM
39039

Which lurs are you from?
South?
North?
Bakhtiari?
Filly?

Lurs are divided between two major groups Northern Luris / Lesser Lors (Lor-e kuček) and Southern Luri Greater Lors (Lor-e bozorg). Feyli I think belonging to N Luri and Bakhtiari belong to S. Luri.

The geographical dividing line between Northern Luri and Southern Luri appears to be the river Ab-e-Dez. https://iranicaonline.org/articles/ab-e-dez

Southern Luri is rather Persian influenced whereas Northern Luri has many similarities to Kurdish. Luri like Persian is a SW Iranian language whereas Kurdish is a NW Iranian language.

NK19191
08-25-2020, 12:59 PM
Not sure if there's already a thread for Iranian G25 coords but does anyone have any Iranian coordinates for comparisons? Feel free to post your own.

I am half Lur (western Iran) and half Persian (central Iran)


Xeon_scaled,0.08992,0.112724,-0.064111,-0.039083,-0.045855,-0.006972,-0.00094,0.000692,-0.035996,-0.015126,0.006658,-0.005095,0.003122,-0.007432,0.008007,0.00716,0.004694,0.005068,0.0031 42,-0.008254,0.000749,-0.009769,0.004807,-0.002771,0.005628

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.2807% / 0.02280652

37.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
24.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
17.4 Levant_PPNB
11.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
4.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.4 Nganassan
0.6 MAR_Taforalt



Central Iran? where are you from? Isfahan, Kashan, etc. where in central Iran.

NK19191
08-25-2020, 01:07 PM
Any possible Lak ancestry? You seem to be more Kurdish shifted than the Lor samples on G25 (which is interesting because they are from the same province your one parent according to David Bush)

Khorammabad is a mixed Laki and Northen Luri city based on my understanding. Based on what I have read on Northern Luri people and Southern Kurdish tribes, there has been a great deal of overlap between the two historically.

Lakis are most likely Kurds and most historians think they are but not fully proven yet.

BTW Khorammabad is one of the most beautiful cities in Iran and the region. I had the pleasure of traveling there when I was a kid and its nature and greenery are breathtakingly beautiful.

NK19191
08-25-2020, 01:26 PM
Historically there were two local dynasties that played pivitaL role beofre the modern times and the coming of Safavid in Iran which recreated Iran.

1)Khorshidi dynasty

2)Hazaraspids

The Khorshidi dynasty (Ḵoršīdī, Kurdish: XurşÓdiyan‎), (Persian: لر کوچک‎, Lor-e kūchek, Lori: Lor-e Kūček, Kurdish: LŻrÍ PiÁŻk) was a dynasty that ruled Little Lorestan between 1184 and 1597AD [1][2] from Khorramabad.[3] The dynasty was stemmed from the Jangardi tribe (Jangrūʾī or Jangardī).[3]

The rulers of Khorshidi dynasty were called Atabegs, with the word Atabeg resulting from the combination of the Turkish "ata" meaning "father", and "beg"/"bek"/"bak" meaning "great"/"big".[4] After the death of Hessameddin, Shuja' al-din Khurshid became the independent ruler of the entirety of Little Lorestan. After Shuja' al-din Khurshid, a dynasty of his successors ruled Little Lorestan. These Lurs (also Lors) formed the local dynasty of Atabakan-e-Luristan (1184-1597 AD), during the Seljuk era, with the last governor of that dynasty, known as Shahverdi Khan, being executed by Shah Abbas the Great, thereby terminating the Khorshidi dynasty.[5] Shah Abbas then assigned Hossein Beyg (a.k.a. Hossein Khan) of the Silvizi clan, the nephew of Shahverdi Khan, and grandson of Jahangir Atabeg, to rule over Little Lorestan, thus replacing the Khorshidi dynasty with its own kin, the Lorish dynasty known as the Vāli/Wāli dynasty in 1597.[5][6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khorshidi_dynasty

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fa/b/b6/Atabakan_lor_kochak.png


The Hazaraspids (Persian: هزاراسپیان‎) (1155–1424), was a Kurdish Sunni Muslim dynasty[1][2] that ruled the Zagros Mountains region of southwestern Iran, essentially in Lorestan and the adjacent parts of Fars which flourished in the later Saljuq, Ilkhanid, Muzaffarid, and Timurid periods.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazaraspids

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/IranaftertheIlkhanate.png/800px-IranaftertheIlkhanate.png

ThaYamamoto
08-25-2020, 07:50 PM
From their names they seem to be Iranian. Mehmet might be from Turkey (possibly Kurdish).

Thanks, that's a great start - I can see perhaps Kurdish input but I don't seem very Turkish shifted, but of course being mixed up throws most dimensions off.

Can anyone deduce where these people may be from? They're all one family:

Match 1:

Middle East - 51%
Turkey & The Caucasus - 32%
Italy - 12%
Greece & The Balkans - 4%
Benin & Togo - 1%

Match 2:

Middle East - 54%
Turkey & The Caucasus - 35%
Italy - 7%
Greece & The Balkans - 4%

Match 3

Middle East - 67%
Turkey & The Caucasus - 22%
Italy - 5%
Nigeria - 2%
Benin & Togo - 1%
Senegal - 1%
Ethiopia & Eritrea- 1%
Southern & Eastern Africa Hunter-Gatherers - 1%

Match 4

Middle East - 50%
Turkey & The Caucasus - 39%
Italy - 5%
Iran/Persia - 3%
Greece & The Balkans - 2%
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 1%

I can't figure them out at all - their ratios seem hella weird and one of them has both West-West African+East African affinities. Their given names are very Turkish [?] based on my googles.

kyp.snow
08-25-2020, 11:05 PM
Thanks, that's a great start - I can see perhaps Kurdish input but I don't seem very Turkish shifted, but of course being mixed up throws most dimensions off.

Can anyone deduce where these people may be from? They're all one family:

Match 1:

Middle East - 51%
Turkey & The Caucasus - 32%
Italy - 12%
Greece & The Balkans - 4%
Benin & Togo - 1%

Match 2:

Middle East - 54%
Turkey & The Caucasus - 35%
Italy - 7%
Greece & The Balkans - 4%

Match 3

Middle East - 67%
Turkey & The Caucasus - 22%
Italy - 5%
Nigeria - 2%
Benin & Togo - 1%
Senegal - 1%
Ethiopia & Eritrea- 1%
Southern & Eastern Africa Hunter-Gatherers - 1%

Match 4

Middle East - 50%
Turkey & The Caucasus - 39%
Italy - 5%
Iran/Persia - 3%
Greece & The Balkans - 2%
Eastern Bantu Peoples - 1%

I can't figure them out at all - their ratios seem hella weird and one of them has both West-West African+East African affinities. Their given names are very Turkish [?] based on my googles.

I can't help you because im not familiar with this company. Although these results look more like Levantine Arab than Turkey or Iran. If you want to go by names you can use this site: https://forebears.io/
The site shows you the distribution of most names worldwide. Just search for the name and click on "distribution"

ThaYamamoto
08-25-2020, 11:41 PM
I can't help you because im not familiar with this company. Although these results look more like Levantine Arab than Turkey or Iran. If you want to go by names you can use this site: https://forebears.io/
The site shows you the distribution of most names worldwide. Just search for the name and click on "distribution"

Thanks! I don't wanna hijack the thread so in keeping with Iranians - my closest Middle-Eastern match on 23andme is Haddadi ; from my results could my ancestor be an Arabic speaking Iranian? Funnily enough on the map, the surname then pops up in Tanzania after peaking in Iran.

Xeon
08-28-2020, 09:16 PM
they have a lot more . the modelling is just nonsense since kura araxes has a lot of anatolia in it already

do you have any kura araxes samples? what do their admixtures look like?

Xeon
08-28-2020, 09:18 PM
Central Iran? where are you from? Isfahan, Kashan, etc. where in central Iran.

im from tehran, which doesnt mean anything but my other parents side is from kashan.

Xeon
08-28-2020, 09:23 PM
Whats going on guys quick question - before I go on a kiswahili speaker/culturally so I can't offer much about where I think ancestry is coming from. I've not been able to discern where my MENA ancestry comes from (family claimed Yemen but it seems unlikely). Here's a messy model I spun out just to compare with the most "west asian" shifted north-west South Asians in my sheets - note double the Hajji Fayruz score. Does Seh Gabi indicate anything?


39143

39144

Recently, I have a bunch of Ancestry/23andme matches that I can't figure out - four of them are from same family which is weird cuz I've never had a familial match before. Generic Muslim names except for the surnames Ketabdar, Mehmet, Alinejad (can't see the last two lady's cuz they won't connect on ancestry/23andme). I know of Kurdish folk and Turk's settled in Mombasa/Zanzibar but no idea if this kind of ancestry is present in myself. I can attach these peoples results if you guys can figure out if they are an Iranian group or otherwise? On PCAs I drop off more toward Yemen/Egypt but its hard to tell cuz I'm still too near the South Asian cline, or rather some of them are too near to me.

edit: please note I'm of tha belief that nMonte greatly depresses SSA in individuals with high basal/Hotu/IranN ancestry - this might skewer things a little bit.

mehmet is a turkish name, we dont have this in Iran. Alinejad is Iranian, 'jad' is an iranian suffix. ketabdar is a generic one too, it means 'book keeper' in persian.
However, they dont seem to be iranians based on those ancestry results. They have way too much middle east and not enough Iran/Caucasus. they might be iranian arabs

davit
09-23-2020, 06:15 PM
If we follow a basic "staging-admix" model for the W. Iranians (an extension of the Sintashta-Petrovka -> BA/IA C Asia -> E. Urmia chain), then, it should be apparent that the "core early Kurdish" population would've been near-identical to the Old Azari, proto-Lur etc. speakers.
Ergo, following their dissemination from E. Urmia during the Median empire's expansion, that model does project forwards to predict that the "core early Kurds" (a Median-derived population) would've intermixed to some degree with the natives of SE Anatolia/N Mesopotamia during the Classical period.

I think that Magnetic's contention is that any Anatolian-like signal in Turkish Kurds is just a result of that model's natural outcome, rather than more recent admix with Assyrians, Armenians or E. Turks. In short, that practically all of any additional Anatolian admix that is seen in Kurds versus is attributable to some degree of Iranicisation during Classical times, and not from later periods.

I also think the crux of the discussion ultimately lies in just how much Anatolian-related admix the Kurd progenitors (semi-nomadic NW Iranian speakers) were after immediately after their own ancestors (which I consider to be a subset of Medes) westwards out of NW Iran.

At this current time, this looks like an open-ended situation without any definitive data indicating which of those scenarios is true (or, indeed, which combination).

The finding of Iranian Kurds who match Turkish Kurds near-completely isn't particularly surprising to me - As we're all probably aware, cross-boundary movements have occurred within the last 500 years or so (both for Kurds and other ethnic groups in the region, such as Azeris). An analogy to this is the finding of substantively Anatolian-admixed Azeris (which deviate from the norm).

Aren't Kurds really recent migrants to Anatolia?

Helves
09-23-2020, 07:15 PM
Interesting results you seem pretty much well within the norm of West-Central Iran. Although you seem to be lacking the small Indus-Valley related that most Iranians seem to score.

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.1093% / 0.02109292
43.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
27.8 TKM_IA
27.4 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
1.6 MNG_Hovsgol_BA
0.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Iranian_Lor
Distance: 1.1058% / 0.01105799
38.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
30.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
24.6 TKM_IA
4.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
2.2 MNG_Hovsgol_BA

Target: Iranian_Fars
Distance: 0.9130% / 0.00912996
31.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
31.4 TKM_IA
27.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
6.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
3.0 MNG_Hovsgol_BA

Xeon
09-27-2020, 12:35 AM
Aren't Kurds really recent migrants to Anatolia?

I believe kurds have been inhabitants of eastern Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia for a long time, probably since the median empire some 2500 years ago. They are however recent migrants to certain south Caucasian countries

Xeon
09-27-2020, 12:39 AM
Interesting results you seem pretty much well within the norm of West-Central Iran. Although you seem to be lacking the small Indus-Valley related that most Iranians seem to score.

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.1093% / 0.02109292
43.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
27.8 TKM_IA
27.4 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
1.6 MNG_Hovsgol_BA
0.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Iranian_Lor
Distance: 1.1058% / 0.01105799
38.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
30.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
24.6 TKM_IA
4.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
2.2 MNG_Hovsgol_BA

Target: Iranian_Fars
Distance: 0.9130% / 0.00912996
31.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
31.4 TKM_IA
27.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
6.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
3.0 MNG_Hovsgol_BA

Ty for the model, tkm is BMAC related correct?

Helves
09-27-2020, 01:55 AM
Ty for the model, tkm is BMAC related correct?

Half BMAC, half Steppe(Sintashta/Andronovo).

davit
09-27-2020, 08:24 PM
I believe kurds have been inhabitants of eastern Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia for a long time, probably since the median empire some 2500 years ago. They are however recent migrants to certain south Caucasian countries

I thought the Zagros was the border between Iranic peoples and Assyrians/Armenians. It wouldn't surprise me though if the Medes expanded past the Zagros.

Xeon
09-28-2020, 07:44 AM
I thought the Zagros was the border between Iranic peoples and Assyrians/Armenians. It wouldn't surprise me though if the Medes expanded past the Zagros.

kurds, parthians, azaris, tats and talysh tribes have been living outside of Iranian borders for thousands of years.
groups like tats and talysh don't even exist in Iran since they have been living within places like Azerbaijan for a really long time.
the persians were the only ones that never expanded past their home province since they were very urbanized to begin with. kurds for the most were nomads, same with every other iranic group.

Buxoro
09-28-2020, 08:39 AM
Apparently Tajiks, Pamiri and Turkmen are more Iranic/Steppe than you and they also don’t score any Semitic at all:

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.0301% / 0.02030060
52.6 Semitic
26.8 Brahui+Balochi
19.6 Caucasian
1.0 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG

Target: Turkmen
Distance: 1.7543% / 0.01754286
36.6 Caucasian
16.4 Semitic
16.2 Brahui+Balochi
9.6 NE_Asian
8.8 Uralic
3.6 South_Asian
3.6 East_Asian
2.6 Siberian_Turkic
1.8 North_Indian+Kalash
0.8 Amerindian

Target: Tajikistan_Pamir:Yaghnobi
Distance: 2.8661% / 0.02866092
36.8 Brahui+Balochi
28.8 Caucasian
14.0 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG
10.0 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
7.0 Greek+Albanian
2.8 East_Asian
0.6 Siberian_Turkic

Target: Tajik:Tajik_Afghanistan_Border
Distance: 2.3433% / 0.02343321
29.4 Brahui+Balochi
28.8 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
18.0 North_Indian+Kalash
13.0 Caucasian
4.8 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG
4.4 East_Asian
0.8 NE_Asian
0.8 Amerindian

Target: Tajik:Tajik_3
Distance: 2.6278% / 0.02627781
31.6 Caucasian
22.0 Brahui+Balochi
19.4 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
9.4 Siberian_Turkic
7.4 North_Indian+Kalash
5.6 NE_Asian
2.8 East_Asian
1.6 Arabic
0.2 Amerindian

Target: Tajik:Tajik_2
Distance: 3.1172% / 0.03117174
29.8 Caucasian
23.6 Brahui+Balochi
12.6 North_Indian+Kalash
11.4 NW_European+Beakers
7.6 NE_Asian
7.2 East_Asian
6.0 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
1.8 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG

dosas
09-28-2020, 09:18 AM
Apparently Tajiks, Pamiri and Turkmen are more Iranic/Steppe than you and they also don’t score any Semitic at all:

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.0301% / 0.02030060
52.6 Semitic
26.8 Brahui+Balochi
19.6 Caucasian
1.0 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG

Target: Turkmen
Distance: 1.7543% / 0.01754286
36.6 Caucasian
16.4 Semitic
16.2 Brahui+Balochi
9.6 NE_Asian
8.8 Uralic
3.6 South_Asian
3.6 East_Asian
2.6 Siberian_Turkic
1.8 North_Indian+Kalash
0.8 Amerindian

Target: Tajikistan_Pamir:Yaghnobi
Distance: 2.8661% / 0.02866092
36.8 Brahui+Balochi
28.8 Caucasian
14.0 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG
10.0 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
7.0 Greek+Albanian
2.8 East_Asian
0.6 Siberian_Turkic

Target: Tajik:Tajik_Afghanistan_Border
Distance: 2.3433% / 0.02343321
29.4 Brahui+Balochi
28.8 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
18.0 North_Indian+Kalash
13.0 Caucasian
4.8 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG
4.4 East_Asian
0.8 NE_Asian
0.8 Amerindian

Target: Tajik:Tajik_3
Distance: 2.6278% / 0.02627781
31.6 Caucasian
22.0 Brahui+Balochi
19.4 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
9.4 Siberian_Turkic
7.4 North_Indian+Kalash
5.6 NE_Asian
2.8 East_Asian
1.6 Arabic
0.2 Amerindian

Target: Tajik:Tajik_2
Distance: 3.1172% / 0.03117174
29.8 Caucasian
23.6 Brahui+Balochi
12.6 North_Indian+Kalash
11.4 NW_European+Beakers
7.6 NE_Asian
7.2 East_Asian
6.0 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
1.8 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG



Can you link the reference list for that model, I want to try out .

Coldmountains
09-28-2020, 09:23 AM
Apparently Tajiks, Pamiri and Turkmen are more Iranic/Steppe than you and they also don’t score any Semitic at all:

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.0301% / 0.02030060
52.6 Semitic
26.8 Brahui+Balochi
19.6 Caucasian
1.0 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG

Target: Turkmen
Distance: 1.7543% / 0.01754286
36.6 Caucasian
16.4 Semitic
16.2 Brahui+Balochi
9.6 NE_Asian
8.8 Uralic
3.6 South_Asian
3.6 East_Asian
2.6 Siberian_Turkic
1.8 North_Indian+Kalash
0.8 Amerindian

Target: Tajikistan_Pamir:Yaghnobi
Distance: 2.8661% / 0.02866092
36.8 Brahui+Balochi
28.8 Caucasian
14.0 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG
10.0 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
7.0 Greek+Albanian
2.8 East_Asian
0.6 Siberian_Turkic

Target: Tajik:Tajik_Afghanistan_Border
Distance: 2.3433% / 0.02343321
29.4 Brahui+Balochi
28.8 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
18.0 North_Indian+Kalash
13.0 Caucasian
4.8 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG
4.4 East_Asian
0.8 NE_Asian
0.8 Amerindian

Target: Tajik:Tajik_3
Distance: 2.6278% / 0.02627781
31.6 Caucasian
22.0 Brahui+Balochi
19.4 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
9.4 Siberian_Turkic
7.4 North_Indian+Kalash
5.6 NE_Asian
2.8 East_Asian
1.6 Arabic
0.2 Amerindian

Target: Tajik:Tajik_2
Distance: 3.1172% / 0.03117174
29.8 Caucasian
23.6 Brahui+Balochi
12.6 North_Indian+Kalash
11.4 NW_European+Beakers
7.6 NE_Asian
7.2 East_Asian
6.0 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
1.8 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG


This calculator has too many components and many of this components are not relevant for the region (Greek+Albanian, Uralic,..). There is some Mesopotamian-like ancestry in Iran which decreases sharply when you go to East Afghanistan (Pashtun dominated regions) and the Pamir region but it is still present among Tajiks in Herat , Central Afghanistan and even Yaghnobi. I am not sure if it is accurate to call this ancestry "Semitic". Rather it seems to be associated with some more Iran_Chalc and "western" shifted groups in the Western Iranian plateau who probably got extra geneflow from Mesopotamia but quite clearly from Pre-Islamic populations.

Alkaevli
09-28-2020, 05:17 PM
Turkish southwest are diverse and some of them have kurdish admix and are from provinces with large kurdish presence.
None of the Turkish_Southwest individuals have Kurdish ancestry. All of them descend fully (8 great-grandparents rule) from native Turks of their respective provinces. They are our project's participants.

Xeon
09-28-2020, 05:58 PM
Apparently Tajiks, Pamiri and Turkmen are more Iranic/Steppe than you and they also don’t score any Semitic at all:

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.0301% / 0.02030060
52.6 Semitic
26.8 Brahui+Balochi
19.6 Caucasian
1.0 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG

Target: Turkmen
Distance: 1.7543% / 0.01754286
36.6 Caucasian
16.4 Semitic
16.2 Brahui+Balochi
9.6 NE_Asian
8.8 Uralic
3.6 South_Asian
3.6 East_Asian
2.6 Siberian_Turkic
1.8 North_Indian+Kalash
0.8 Amerindian

Target: Tajikistan_Pamir:Yaghnobi
Distance: 2.8661% / 0.02866092
36.8 Brahui+Balochi
28.8 Caucasian
14.0 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG
10.0 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
7.0 Greek+Albanian
2.8 East_Asian
0.6 Siberian_Turkic

Target: Tajik:Tajik_Afghanistan_Border
Distance: 2.3433% / 0.02343321
29.4 Brahui+Balochi
28.8 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
18.0 North_Indian+Kalash
13.0 Caucasian
4.8 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG
4.4 East_Asian
0.8 NE_Asian
0.8 Amerindian

Target: Tajik:Tajik_3
Distance: 2.6278% / 0.02627781
31.6 Caucasian
22.0 Brahui+Balochi
19.4 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
9.4 Siberian_Turkic
7.4 North_Indian+Kalash
5.6 NE_Asian
2.8 East_Asian
1.6 Arabic
0.2 Amerindian

Target: Tajik:Tajik_2
Distance: 3.1172% / 0.03117174
29.8 Caucasian
23.6 Brahui+Balochi
12.6 North_Indian+Kalash
11.4 NW_European+Beakers
7.6 NE_Asian
7.2 East_Asian
6.0 Sintashta+Srubnaya+Kangju
1.8 Yamnaya+Afanasievo+EHG


I find that model extremely idiotic. How can my much lower ancient levant admixture turn into majority semitic? Also, how is it possible for a turkmen or Pamiri to score more Caucasian than an Iranian? How would I score more baloch than a turkmen?

Looking at the distance would be much more logical than those scores

Xeon
09-28-2020, 06:03 PM
This calculator has too many components and many of this components are not relevant for the region (Greek+Albanian, Uralic,..). There is some Mesopotamian-like ancestry in Iran which decreases sharply when you go to East Afghanistan (Pashtun dominated regions) and the Pamir region but it is still present among Tajiks in Herat , Central Afghanistan and even Yaghnobi. I am not sure if it is accurate to call this ancestry "Semitic". Rather it seems to be associated with some more Iran_Chalc and "western" shifted groups in the Western Iranian plateau who probably got extra geneflow from Mesopotamia but quite clearly from Pre-Islamic populations.

Those semitic samples are definitely from northern Mesopotamian groups and off shoots of kura araxes which already have barcin and other major west asian components to begin with.

Leper
09-28-2020, 06:13 PM
I dont mean known ancestry. They are neighbouring kurds, one of them closest to Kurds and from provinces with a lot of Kurds. So what is his ancestry then? Turkified talysh or some other crap claim? These people have obvious connection with kurds similar to how Kurds from these provinces have Turkish ancestry. I have myself only known ancestry West side of the euphrates and all my matches are from west of euphrates Kurds or Turks.

Do you even know where SOUTHWEST of Turkey is?

Buxoro
09-28-2020, 06:44 PM
Those semitic samples are definitely from northern Mesopotamian groups and off shoots of kura araxes which already have barcin and other major west asian components to begin with.

Semitic are based on Levantines - Lebanese and Samaritans. It works here as a proxy to your mesopotamian middle eastern ancestry.
Turkmens and Tajiks western asian heritage is pretty much similar to caucasus, much more so any Iranian do besides Azeris and Mazandaranis. No surprise that they score more caucasian than you.
Secondly Turkmens in general have less gedrosia than any Iranian.

Xeon
09-28-2020, 06:55 PM
Semitic are based on Levantines - Lebanese and Samaritans. It works here as a proxy to your mesopotamian middle eastern ancestry.
Turkmens and Tajiks western asian heritage is pretty much similar to caucasus, much more so any Iranian do besides Azeris and Mazandaranis. No surprise that they score more caucasian than you.
Secondly Turkmens in general have less gedrosia than any Iranian.

I find that extremely hard to believe. Tajik and turkmens are majority baloch with the rest being steppe and turkic admixture, not to mention their elevated south asian admixture.

Northern, western and central Iranians are majority Iranian Chalc which is a much western shifted sample than it's predecessor, elevated anatolian and chg. The closest you'll get to the Caucasus than baloch. This is nothing a gedmatch can't solve.

Buxoro
09-29-2020, 06:07 AM
I find that extremely hard to believe. Tajik and turkmens are majority baloch with the rest being steppe and turkic admixture, not to mention their elevated south asian admixture.

Northern, western and central Iranians are majority Iranian Chalc which is a much western shifted sample than it's predecessor, elevated anatolian and chg. The closest you'll get to the Caucasus than baloch. This is nothing a gedmatch can't solve.

Majority baloch? How come? On the g25 most Tajik individual samples score no more or leas baloch than iranians, with the main score being northern caucasus Dagestani (Kaitag, Lak, Darginian etc) along with less turkic, north east euro and small south asian.
Most iranians (especially Lurs) score mainly assyrian, mountain jew, georgian jew, armenian + some tend to even score substantial Samaritan/Palestinian. Obviously western asian ancestry of iranians are more middle eastern - like rather than caucasus which is logical.
On the ancient runs Tajiks do score mainly TKM, southern UZB, TJK ancients, which are the closest to modern day Balochis but they are not the same and the distance between these samples and modern Balochis are quite high.

Xeon
09-29-2020, 08:06 AM
Majority baloch? How come? On the g25 most Tajik individual samples score no more or leas baloch than iranians, with the main score being northern caucasus Dagestani (Kaitag, Lak, Darginian etc) along with less turkic, north east euro and small south asian.
Most iranians (especially Lurs) score mainly assyrian, mountain jew, georgian jew, armenian + some tend to even score substantial Samaritan/Palestinian. Obviously western asian ancestry of iranians are more middle eastern - like rather than caucasus which is logical.
On the ancient runs Tajiks do score mainly TKM, southern UZB, TJK ancients, which are the closest to modern day Balochis but they are not the same and the distance between these samples and modern Balochis are quite high.

I seriously fail to see this "middle eastern / Semitic" affinity which supposedly Iranians have according to your logic. The closest population to me, outside of Iran are Caucasians and Turks.
I dont see any levant population what so ever, except for assyrians who are rather different than levant populations. Its literally illogical for anyone to claim that central asians are closer to Caucasians than Iranians whom are immediate neighbours. The only overlap between a tajik and a chechen for example would be the high steppe admixture which Iranians lack. thats the only overlapping shift.

according to your logic, Azeris both from Iran and the republic must be closer to levant populations than Caucasians ones since I heavily overlap with them on g25 and gedmatch. but this isnt the reality is it?

Either way, chg seems to be more native to south Caucasus than the north.

1 West_Asian 42.08
2 East_Med 29.86
3 South_Asian 6.39
4 Red_Sea 6.36
5 West_Med 6.29
6 North_Atlantic 3.34
7 Baltic 2.98
8 Sub-Saharan 1.04
9 Siberian 0.95
10 Oceanian 0.69

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Kurdish 2.57
2 Iranian 4.76
3 Azeri 7.82
4 Armenian 9.97
5 Georgian_Jewish 10.75
6 Turkish 13.15
7 Georgian 13.69
8 Assyrian 13.82
9 Abhkasian 14.79
10 Kumyk 14.97
11 Iranian_Jewish 15.9
12 Adygei 16.21
13 Kurdish_Jewish 16.42
14 Ossetian 16.71
15 Balkar 18.37
16 Turkmen 18.37
17 North_Ossetian 18.65
18 Kabardin 19.5
19 Lezgin 19.88
20 Chechen 20.35

Here's a tajik Pamiri sample for example,
You can clearly see the baloch and south central asian affinity

[1,] "Tajik_Pomiri" "0"
[2,] "Pashtun" "7.357"
[3,] "Afghan_Pushtun" "9.2613"
[4,] "Tadjik" "9.688"
[5,] "Pakistani_Pushtun" "16.6862"
[6,] "Pathan" "18.4692"
[7,] "Parsi" "19.037"
[8,] "Burusho" "19.132"
[9,] "Iranian" "23.3765"
[10,] "Uzbek" "24.3134"
[11,] "Jatt-Haryana" "24.596"
[12,] "Jatt-Pahari" "24.9582"
[13,] "Turkmen" "25.0472"
[14,] "Makrani" "25.1914"
[15,] "Punjabi-Gujjar" "25.8254"
[16,] "Urkarah" "26.593"
[17,] "Lak" "26.7623"
[18,] "Sindhi" "26.8825"
[19,] "Tabassaran" "27.5427"
[20,] "Balochi" "27.6667"
[21,] "Stalskoe" "27.9131"
[22,] "Avar" "27.9344"
[23,] "Kurd" "27.9772"
[24,] "Lezgins" "28.0579"
[25,] "Azeri" "28.8006"
[26,] "Azeri_Dagestan" "28.8726"
[27,] "Baku_WGA" "29.3521"
[28,] "Lezgin" "29.5922"
[29,] "Kurds" "29.7181"
[30,] "Jatt-Muslim" "30.2173"
[31,] "GujaratiA_GIH" "30.4158"
[32,] "Uzbekistan_Jew" "30.4507"
[33,] "Mumbai_Jews" "30.8112"
[34,] "Ain_Touta_WGA" "30.8126"
[35,] "Pakistani" "30.9563"
[36,] "Uzbek_WGA" "31.0916"
[37,] "Mishar" "31.5589"
[38,] "Uyghur" "31.7127"
[39,] "Cochin_Jew" "32.1056"
[40,] "Nogai" "32.2401"

StarDS9
09-29-2020, 12:53 PM
I think calling Iranians Middle Eastern ancestry as Semetic is silly. There is some overleap due to sharing Neolothic ancestry(Iran_N,Anatolian_N,Levant_N) but that does not make Iranians some how Semetic.

Iranians tend to cluster closer with North Caucasians then to Levantine groups as they both share high Iran_N ancestry.

Some West Iranians like Kurds and Lors might get some Assyrian similarties that is simply do to Iranification of Assyrians and non semetic groups like Kassites,Elamites which gives some extra Levant like ancestry but not as high as some might think.

Alkaevli
09-29-2020, 07:06 PM
I dont mean known ancestry. They are neighbouring kurds, one of them closest to Kurds and from provinces with a lot of Kurds.
Google southwest Anatolia.



So what is his ancestry then? Turkified talysh or some other crap claim?
Straw man fallacy.

Kulin
09-29-2020, 07:54 PM
Please avoid reactionary comments, and keep the tone civil.

@Mountain, "Southwestern Anatolia" refers to portions of the Mediterranean region (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Region,_Turkey) in Turkey. Kurds and Anatolian Turks (and other West Asians/Caucasians) have overlaps in certain admixture components so there's bound to be some sort of similarity, atleast on paper without ancestry from one or the other.

Kurdistani
10-01-2020, 08:44 AM
Where do you look this results I want look my self as well.

Kurdistani
10-01-2020, 08:51 AM
OMG IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N Where is this website how I can find I want do my.

Kurdistani
10-01-2020, 09:31 AM
This is mean we are Proto Elamites I love it what website this please.

Kurdistani
10-06-2020, 10:55 AM
How did you get this can you look for me too please here is my result Sezar_scaled,0.087644,0.107646,-0.053928,-0.03553,-0.042162,0.002231,0.000705,-0.006,-0.028633,-0.015855,0.001949,-0.006594,0.010555,-0.003991,0.004614,0.021082,0.011343,0.003167,0.001 508,-0.011756,-0.002371,0.001237,0.000493,-0.006989,0.00491

StarDS9
10-06-2020, 11:18 AM
How did you get this can you look for me too please here is my result Sezar_scaled,0.087644,0.107646,-0.053928,-0.03553,-0.042162,0.002231,0.000705,-0.006,-0.028633,-0.015855,0.001949,-0.006594,0.010555,-0.003991,0.004614,0.021082,0.011343,0.003167,0.001 508,-0.011756,-0.002371,0.001237,0.000493,-0.006989,0.00491

Your results seem to show that you are more like Kurds from Iran and South rather then Kurds from Turkey who tend have higher Barcin_N and you also have high Steppe ancestry compared to the Kurdish average. Results are similar to the Iranian average.

SampleFitGanj Dareh NBarcin NLevant PPNBGEO CHGYamnaya RUS SamaraSimulated AASI NW by DMXXDevils Gate Cave NIranian Lor ► Average2.4236.5202011.51011
Kurdistani2.623618.521.5617.500.5
Iranian Zoroastrian ► Average2.33618.517.581910
Iranian Fars ► Average2.3435.518.5171015.51.52
Kurdish ► Average2.543224.517151100.5
Ezid ► Average2.1129.522201214.51.50.5

Kurdistani
10-06-2020, 11:44 AM
Thank You I have to learn how you run I try I can't do :D

Xeon
10-07-2020, 02:10 AM
How did you get this can you look for me too please here is my result Sezar_scaled,0.087644,0.107646,-0.053928,-0.03553,-0.042162,0.002231,0.000705,-0.006,-0.028633,-0.015855,0.001949,-0.006594,0.010555,-0.003991,0.004614,0.021082,0.011343,0.003167,0.001 508,-0.011756,-0.002371,0.001237,0.000493,-0.006989,0.00491



you can use *********************************/ to run various models

I find it pretty interesting, it seems like you're much closer to Iranian samples, especially Zoroastrian ones than I am.
most definitely because of your higher steppe.

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 1.4159% / 0.01415884 | ADC: 0.5x
29.0 Iranian_Lor
22.4 Turkish_East
18.4 Talysh_Azerbaijan
18.2 Kurdish
12.0 Iranian_Zoroastrian

Target: Sezar_scaled
Distance: 1.2328% / 0.01232813 | ADC: 0.5x
32.4 Iranian_Zoroastrian
21.4 Ezid
21.4 Iranian_Seyyed
13.4 Kurdish
7.0 Azeri
4.4 Turkish_Adana


Target: Sezar_scaled
Distance: 1.1442% / 0.01144212 | ADC: 0.25x
32.4 Iranian_Zoroastrian
20.6 Iranian_Seyyed
17.8 Ezid
8.6 Kurdish
7.0 Azeri
5.0 Turkish_Adana
3.6 Druze
3.2 Talysh_Azerbaijan
1.2 Iranian_Lor
0.6 Egyptian

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 1.1999% / 0.01199920 | ADC: 0.25x
31.0 Iranian_Lor
17.6 Kurdish
15.8 Talysh_Azerbaijan
15.8 Turkish_East
8.6 Iranian_Zoroastrian
5.8 Iranian_Mazandarani
3.2 Darginian
1.2 Moroccan_North
0.6 Georgian_Laz
0.4 Berber_MAR_ERR

Buxoro
10-07-2020, 03:40 AM
[QUOTE=StarDS9;706343]Your results seem to show that you are more like Kurds from Iran and South rather then Kurds from Turkey who tend have higher Barcin_N and you also have high Steppe ancestry compared to the Kurdish average. Results are similar to the Iranian average.

SampleFitGanj Dareh NBarcin NLevant PPNBGEO CHGYamnaya RUS SamaraSimulated AASI NW by DMXXDevils Gate Cave NIranian Lor ► Average2.4236.5202011.51011
Kurdistani2.623618.521.5617.500.5
Iranian Zoroastrian ► Average2.33618.517.581910
Iranian Fars ► Average2.3435.518.5171015.51.52
Kurdish ► Average2.543224.517151100.5
Ezid ► Average2.1129.522201214.51.50.5[/]
Nevermind i found it.
I think my Bukharan father should score around 40% Yamnaya with only trace Levant

Xeon
10-07-2020, 04:40 AM
[QUOTE=StarDS9;706343]Your results seem to show that you are more like Kurds from Iran and South rather then Kurds from Turkey who tend have higher Barcin_N and you also have high Steppe ancestry compared to the Kurdish average. Results are similar to the Iranian average.

SampleFitGanj Dareh NBarcin NLevant PPNBGEO CHGYamnaya RUS SamaraSimulated AASI NW by DMXXDevils Gate Cave NIranian Lor ► Average2.4236.5202011.51011
Kurdistani2.623618.521.5617.500.5
Iranian Zoroastrian ► Average2.33618.517.581910
Iranian Fars ► Average2.3435.518.5171015.51.52
Kurdish ► Average2.543224.517151100.5
Ezid ► Average2.1129.522201214.51.50.5[/]
Nevermind i found it.
I think my Bukharan father should score around 40% Yamnaya with only trace Levant

Bukharan as in an Persian speaking uzbek or bukharan jewish? Most Persian speaking central Asians are persianized eastern Iranians, having 40% steppe is pretty normal while the rest is BMAC or Iranian neolithic related ancestry.

Buxoro
10-07-2020, 05:16 AM
[QUOTE=Buxoro;706649]

Bukharan as in an Persian speaking uzbek or bukharan jewish? Most Persian speaking central Asians are persianized eastern Iranians, having 40% steppe is pretty normal while the rest is BMAC or Iranian neolithic related ancestry.

The levant in Iranian is ancient, it is not from any recent arab or semitic migration. there never was any migrations of semitic groups into Iran. Not even during the islamic conquest. At most, it was elite calph leadership. The levant in Iranian comes from the pre-iranic civilizations of the Iranian plateau. This would mean that any group with Iranian neolithic ancestry must have levant admixture no matter how small it maybe

Persian speaking Uzbekistanis* (Tajiks) not Uzbeks because Uzbeks are turkic speaking.
However lots of local Tajiks are already uzbekified by post-soviet nationalistic uzbek government.

Buxoro
10-07-2020, 05:39 AM
Here i ran Iranian averages against set of Iron-Age/MA samples (isn’t a mode just a compilation of samples) to see how recent it is:

Target: Iranian_Mazandarani
Distance: 1.9671% / 0.01967067 | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
19.4 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
15.8 PAK_Butkara_IA

Target: Iranian_Bandari
Distance: 2.8180% / 0.02817952 | ADC: 0.25x RC
43.6 PAK_Butkara_IA
33.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
10.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
6.6 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o
5.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian

Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 0.9583% / 0.00958312 | ADC: 0.25x RC
33.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
30.2 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
12.0 TKM_IA
10.0 PAK_Barikot_IA
6.0 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
5.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
3.0 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o

Target: Iranian_Lor
Distance: 1.3503% / 0.01350317 | ADC: 0.25x RC
36.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
28.4 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
17.2 Levant_Megiddo_IA
12.0 PAK_Butkara_IA
6.2 TUR_IA

Target: Iranian_Fars
Distance: 0.9879% / 0.00987857 | ADC: 0.25x RC
26.4 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
24.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
19.2 PAK_Barikot_IA
14.4 Levant_Megiddo_IA
10.0 TUR_IA
5.8 TKM_IA


Most tend to score IA Haiji Firuz, with small Levantine (highest in Lor). Still the sample should already have small levantine/messopotamian.

Tajiks (no Levantine at all):

Target: Tajik
Distance: 0.9802% / 0.00980217 | ADC: 0.25x RC
29.6 TKM_IA
24.4 TUR_IA
22.6 PAK_Barikot_IA
11.2 MNG_Mongol
7.6 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o
4.6 KAZ_Tasbas_IA

Target: Tajik_Yagnobi
Distance: 1.1561% / 0.01156130 | ADC: 0.25x RC
38.6 TKM_IA
19.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
18.4 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o
11.0 KAZ_Tasbas_IA
11.0 TUR_IA
1.4 PAK_Singoor_MA

Xeon
10-07-2020, 05:56 AM
Here i ran Iranian averages against set of Iron-Age/MA samples (isn’t a mode just a compilation of samples) to see how recent it is:

Target: Iranian_Mazandarani
Distance: 1.9671% / 0.01967067 | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
19.4 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
15.8 PAK_Butkara_IA

Target: Iranian_Bandari
Distance: 2.8180% / 0.02817952 | ADC: 0.25x RC
43.6 PAK_Butkara_IA
33.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
10.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
6.6 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o
5.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian

Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 0.9583% / 0.00958312 | ADC: 0.25x RC
33.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
30.2 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
12.0 TKM_IA
10.0 PAK_Barikot_IA
6.0 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
5.8 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
3.0 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o

Target: Iranian_Lor
Distance: 1.3503% / 0.01350317 | ADC: 0.25x RC
36.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
28.4 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
17.2 Levant_Megiddo_IA
12.0 PAK_Butkara_IA
6.2 TUR_IA

Target: Iranian_Fars
Distance: 0.9879% / 0.00987857 | ADC: 0.25x RC
26.4 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
24.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
19.2 PAK_Barikot_IA
14.4 Levant_Megiddo_IA
10.0 TUR_IA
5.8 TKM_IA


Most tend to score IA Haiji Firuz, with small Levantine (highest in Lor). Still the sample should already have small levantine/messopotamian.

Tajiks (no Levantine at all):

Target: Tajik
Distance: 0.9802% / 0.00980217 | ADC: 0.25x RC
29.6 TKM_IA
24.4 TUR_IA
22.6 PAK_Barikot_IA
11.2 MNG_Mongol
7.6 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o
4.6 KAZ_Tasbas_IA

Target: Tajik_Yagnobi
Distance: 1.1561% / 0.01156130 | ADC: 0.25x RC
38.6 TKM_IA
19.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
18.4 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o
11.0 KAZ_Tasbas_IA
11.0 TUR_IA
1.4 PAK_Singoor_MA

Pre iranic civilizations in Iran had direct ties to sumerians, Babylonians and other kura araxes groups. What makes you think these populations didn't have any levant to pass to Iranians? Our levant does not come from any Bedouin or modern arab related group.

I have no doubt in my mind that Babylonians, sumerians and other northern Mesopotamians had levant admixtures.
Multiple Persian empires ruled these areas for a long time, internal migration took place on many accounts, which is why there are african admixtures from egypt in southern iran

Lors and kurds were and still are one of the most protective and defensive tribes in Iranian history. Its impossible for them to have mixed with any foreign tribes in the past thousands of years. They put up the most resistance to change and only married amongst their own. This would further prove the fact that the levant is ancient

Buxoro
10-07-2020, 06:15 AM
Pre iranic civilizations in Iran had direct ties to sumerians, Babylonians and other kura araxes groups. What makes you think these populations didn't have any levant to pass to Iranians? Our levant does not come from any Bedouin or modern arab related group.

I have no doubt in my mind that Babylonians, sumerians and other northern Mesopotamians had levant admixtures.
Multiple Persian empires ruled these areas for a long time, internal migration took place on many accounts, which is why there are african admixtures from egypt in southern iran

Lors and kurds were and still are one of the most protective and defensive tribes in Iranian history. Its impossible for them to have mixed with any foreign tribes in the past thousands of years. They put up the most resistance to change and only married amongst their own. This would further prove the fact that the levant is ancient

I am not telling it’s not ancient.
Obviously it’s not arab or bedouin-like, since Levant Megiddo is closest to Samaritans - it means the link is ancient pre-arab Levantine thing.

Buxoro
10-07-2020, 06:19 AM
Here is your result:

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 1.9403% / 0.01940268 | ADC: 0.25x RC
44.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
39.4 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
6.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
5.2 TUR_IA
4.8 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o

My father result is terrifying and strange, but the good thing is a high distance so it’s not really reliable:

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 3.9459% / 0.03945930 | ADC: 0.25x RC
30.8 Levant_Megiddo_IA
15.8 PAK_Gogdara_IA
15.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
13.0 MNG_Xiongnu_Central_Asian
12.6 KAZ_Tasbas_IA
8.6 MNG_MA
4.2 MNG_Xiongnu_East_Asian

Xeon
10-07-2020, 06:42 AM
Here is your result:

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 1.9403% / 0.01940268 | ADC: 0.25x RC
44.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
39.4 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
6.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
5.2 TUR_IA
4.8 PAK_Loebanr_IA_o

My father result is terrifying and strange, but the good thing is a high distance so it’s not really reliable:

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 3.9459% / 0.03945930 | ADC: 0.25x RC
30.8 Levant_Megiddo_IA
15.8 PAK_Gogdara_IA
15.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
13.0 MNG_Xiongnu_Central_Asian
12.6 KAZ_Tasbas_IA
8.6 MNG_MA
4.2 MNG_Xiongnu_East_Asian

What is tur_ia exactly

Buxoro
10-07-2020, 07:19 AM
What is tur_ia exactly

Its a sample from iron age Turkey but it seems to be mislabeled. It’s suspiciously close to modern turkish people and even have central asian admixture (not possible for Iron Age anatolia).

I removed it and also Pak_loebanr_outlier
Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 1.9736% / 0.01973620 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
43.4 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
6.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
4.2 KAZ_Nomad_IA

Xeon
10-07-2020, 08:40 AM
Its a sample from iron age Turkey but it seems to be mislabeled. It’s suspiciously close to modern turkish people and even have central asian admixture (not possible for Iron Age anatolia).

I removed it and also Pak_loebanr_outlier
Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 1.9736% / 0.01973620 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
43.4 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
6.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
4.2 KAZ_Nomad_IA

that makes sense considering that the tajik sample had a higher admixture of that than I did which is impossible unless the tur_ia was mostly central asian turkic

StarDS9
10-08-2020, 04:12 PM
you can use *********************************/ to run various models

I find it pretty interesting, it seems like you're much closer to Iranian samples, especially Zoroastrian ones than I am.
most definitely because of your higher steppe.

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 1.4159% / 0.01415884 | ADC: 0.5x
29.0 Iranian_Lor
22.4 Turkish_East
18.4 Talysh_Azerbaijan
18.2 Kurdish
12.0 Iranian_Zoroastrian

Target: Sezar_scaled
Distance: 1.2328% / 0.01232813 | ADC: 0.5x
32.4 Iranian_Zoroastrian
21.4 Ezid
21.4 Iranian_Seyyed
13.4 Kurdish
7.0 Azeri
4.4 Turkish_Adana


Target: Sezar_scaled
Distance: 1.1442% / 0.01144212 | ADC: 0.25x
32.4 Iranian_Zoroastrian
20.6 Iranian_Seyyed
17.8 Ezid
8.6 Kurdish
7.0 Azeri
5.0 Turkish_Adana
3.6 Druze
3.2 Talysh_Azerbaijan
1.2 Iranian_Lor
0.6 Egyptian

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 1.1999% / 0.01199920 | ADC: 0.25x
31.0 Iranian_Lor
17.6 Kurdish
15.8 Talysh_Azerbaijan
15.8 Turkish_East
8.6 Iranian_Zoroastrian
5.8 Iranian_Mazandarani
3.2 Darginian
1.2 Moroccan_North
0.6 Georgian_Laz
0.4 Berber_MAR_ERR

I think it is because the Zoroastrain samples are from 2 regions Isfahan and Yazd. They represent pretty much central Iran DNA which some Kurds will cline towards as the only North Iranian samples we have are the Mazandarani samples who have high amounts of Iran_N/Teppe Hisser. If we had more samples from regions like Tehran I guess most of the Kurdish samples might get them first. My father like Kurdistani gets Zoroastrains and Fars first as well.

I have my own theory about the original location of where Kurmanji/Sorani were, but thats for another day.

Xeon
10-08-2020, 04:37 PM
I think it is because the Zoroastrain samples are from 2 regions Isfahan and Yazd. They represent pretty much central Iran DNA which some Kurds will cline towards as the only North Iranian samples we have are the Mazandarani samples who have high amounts of Iran_N/Teppe Hisser. If we had more samples from regions like Tehran I guess most of the Kurdish samples might get them first. My father like Kurdistani gets Zoroastrains and Fars first as well.

I have my own theory about the original location of where Kurmanji/Sorani were, but thats for another day.

Tehran is not at all a homogenous city. It's the new York of Iran. There you will find azeri-persian,lur-persian (like me), kurd-azeri, mazandarani-persian, Assyrian, Armenian and even some afghans like hazaars. Almost everyone from Tehran who lives and works there will identify as Persian rather than their true background. That's the thing with Iranians, urbanized Iranians within the capital will always identify as Persian but people from tabriz will identify as Azeris or people from rasht will identify as mazandarani. Tehran is a melting pot where people don't really acknowledge their own background but rather with the language the speak which is Persian

I wouldn't say Tehran belongs to any ethno-province since it's a melting pot and should never be sampled under a specific category.

I was born in Tehran as well, but with different backgrounds. Also, wouldn't kurds be closer to talysh groups since they are northern iranians and most probably related to the medes/parthians?

StarDS9
10-08-2020, 04:42 PM
Tehran is not at all a homogenous city. It's the new York of Iran. There you will find azeri-persian, mixes, lur-persian (like me), kurd-azeri, mazandarani-persian, Assyrian, Armenian and even some afghans like hazaars.

I wouldn't say Tehran belongs to any ethno-province since it's a melting pot and should never be sampled under a specific category.

I was born in Tehran as well, but with different backgrounds. Also, wouldn't kurds be closer to talysh groups since they are northern iranians and most probably related to the medes/parthians?

Which is why Tehran will a good reference. Even Kurds differ among themselves. Tehran will represent most regions of Iran in one.

Better will be samples Kurds from Iran and Azeri Iranian samples. There were some Azeri Iranian samples on G25 but they were removed and piled with the Azeris from Azerbaijan.

Xeon
10-08-2020, 04:56 PM
Which is why Tehran will a good reference. Even Kurds differ among themselves. Tehran will represent most regions of Iran in one.

Better will be samples Kurds from Iran and Azeri Iranian samples. There were some Azeri Iranian samples on G25 but they were removed and piled with the Azeris from Azerbaijan.

The azeris in Iran will most definitely overlap with Iranian kurds. They have less Caucasian admixture than their republic counterparts due to the albanian ancestry in azerbaijan. Their turkic admixtures may very will be within the same range as republic azeris though. From my experience, Iranian Azeris can look a lot like Iranian kurds except for the visible turanid features on some azeris

digital_noise
10-08-2020, 06:00 PM
I think I’m gonna get G25 for my wife. Thy are all from Tehran but at grandparent level on her dads side they are Kerman, and moms side is Isfahan and the surrounding area.

Xeon
10-08-2020, 06:06 PM
I think I’m gonna get G25 for my wife. Thy are all from Tehran but at grandparent level on her dads side they are Kerman, and moms side is Isfahan and the surrounding area.

Both kerman and Isfahan are overwhelming Persian areas. I would suspect she overlaps heavily with Fars and zoroastrian samples. The general area is where the Persian empire was founded

digital_noise
10-08-2020, 06:09 PM
Yea, seems about right. My daughter gets those a lot, amongst other outliers like Central Asia etc,,

Buxoro
10-08-2020, 08:10 PM
that makes sense considering that the tajik sample had a higher admixture of that than I did which is impossible unless the tur_ia was mostly central asian turkic

Itís not mostly central asian turkic, itís identical to modern turks - they are hardly more than 10-15% central asian. Other part is anatolian/caucasus.

Kurdistani
10-08-2020, 11:20 PM
interesting more close to Ukraine Yamyana Distance to: Sezar_scaled
0.11355238 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
0.13955240 Yamnaya_BGR
0.19241118 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
0.20237563 Yamnaya_UKR
0.20432554 Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash
0.20514671 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
0.20804748 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.21728866 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke

Xeon
10-08-2020, 11:49 PM
Itís not mostly central asian turkic, itís identical to modern turks - they are hardly more than 10-15% central asian. Other part is anatolian/caucasus.

I feel like that sample must have much more than 15-20% central asian turkic admixture. Otherwise how can a tajik have more native anatolian than an Iranian? This goes back to the caucasian argument. Other than central asian admixture overlap between a tajik and that iron age anatolian sample, it does not make sense for a tajik to be virtually closer to native anatolian samples than an Iranian. Same goes for Caucasians.

Some tajiks or uzbeks share the high steppe that for example a chechen might which is the only overlapping aspect. However, this doesn't mean that a tajik is closer to CHG or Barcin than an Iranian.

Buxoro
10-09-2020, 12:23 AM
I feel like that sample must have much more than 15-20% central asian turkic admixture. Otherwise how can a tajik have more native anatolian than an Iranian? This goes back to the caucasian argument. Other than central asian admixture overlap between a tajik and that iron age anatolian sample, it does not make sense for a tajik to be virtually closer to native anatolian samples than an Iranian. Same goes for Caucasians.

Some tajiks or uzbeks share the high steppe that for example a chechen might which is the only overlapping aspect. However, this doesn't mean that a tajik is closer to CHG or Barcin than an Iranian.

Doesn’t seem to be more than 20:

Target: TUR_IA
Distance: 1.9887% / 0.01988748 | ADC: 0.25x RC
26.4 Lebanese_Muslim
21.4 Azeri
16.8 Nogai
15.4 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
13.4 Kabardin
6.6 Chuvash

Target: TUR_IA
Distance: 1.4299% / 0.01429885
34.2 Armenian
17.8 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
12.2 Mongolian
11.8 Cossack_Kuban
8.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
4.8 Lithuanian_VZ
3.8 Georgian_Laz
2.2 Ket
1.8 BedouinB
0.8 Esan_Nigeria
0.8 Todzin
0.4 Nanai
0.4 Yoruba
0.2 Chuvash


Anyways i find strange at least your reaction to Tajik results.

ThaYamamoto
10-09-2020, 04:30 AM
Yea, seems about right. My daughter gets those a lot, amongst other outliers like Central Asia etc,,

Sorry to butt in and I don't wanna hijack the thread from my Iranians bros but am I right in remembering your father-in-law's haplogrop as L-M357? My bad if I'm mistaken.

digital_noise
10-09-2020, 07:22 AM
Sorry to butt in and I don't wanna hijack the thread from my Iranians bros but am I right in remembering your father-in-law's haplogrop as L-M357? My bad if I'm mistaken.

Yes, well sort of. 23 and Me, last I checked, had him at L-M22 which is really high up. I *think* I was able to get that further down to L-M357 by uploading the data to those free Y checking sites. So, yea he's confirmed L-M22, but of course I cant remember where I managed to drill it down to L-M357.

Xeon
10-09-2020, 08:09 AM
Yes, well sort of. 23 and Me, last I checked, had him at L-M22 which is really high up. I *think* I was able to get that further down to L-M357 by uploading the data to those free Y checking sites. So, yea he's confirmed L-M22, but of course I cant remember where I managed to drill it down to L-M357.

Since kerman is a south eastern province, right above balochistan, it makes sense for the dad to be apart of LM22. Do you know if the dad side is Persian speaking? Depending on certain regions, they speak dialects of balochi.

digital_noise
10-09-2020, 04:06 PM
He speaks Farsi. Nothing else. I have pictures of his moms grandfather and he is Wearing a salwar kameez. I’m guessiuits a regional thing.

As far as his grandparents language I have no idea

Helves
10-09-2020, 05:12 PM
I think it is because the Zoroastrain samples are from 2 regions Isfahan and Yazd. They represent pretty much central Iran DNA which some Kurds will cline towards as the only North Iranian samples we have are the Mazandarani samples who have high amounts of Iran_N/Teppe Hisser. If we had more samples from regions like Tehran I guess most of the Kurdish samples might get them first. My father like Kurdistani gets Zoroastrains and Fars first as well.

I have my own theory about the original location of where Kurmanji/Sorani were, but thats for another day.

It would be great to have more regional samples, although for Kurds there seems to be only small variance. Tat poeple, Gilakis and Persians from Northern Iran would be nice to have. Also I find the Fars Persians a bit suspicious the East Asian admix seems really high.

When it comes to where in Iran the various Iranic speakers today formed I have a theory based on the amount of CHG admixture. A simple run with CHG/Ganj Dareh/Barcin/Natufian/Steppe + extra East Asian and South Asian.
Here's the amount of CHG for the various groups. IMO the higher CHG the further north in Iran the group formed.

Talysh_Azerbaijan: 17.0
Kurdish: 12.2
Iranian_Mazandarani: 12.0
Ezid: 10.4
Iranian_Lor: 9.6
Iranian_Fars: 9.2
Iranian_Zoroastrian: 7.6

What's your own theory? The forum is dead when it comes to topics regarding West Asians so you might aswell just write it here anyways.

Xeon
10-09-2020, 07:00 PM
It would be great to have more regional samples, although for Kurds there seems to be only small variance. Tat poeple, Gilakis and Persians from Northern Iran would be nice to have. Also I find the Fars Persians a bit suspicious the East Asian admix seems really high.

When it comes to where in Iran the various Iranic speakers today formed I have a theory based on the amount of CHG admixture. A simple run with CHG/Ganj Dareh/Barcin/Natufian/Steppe + extra East Asian and South Asian.
Here's the amount of CHG for the various groups. IMO the higher CHG the further north in Iran the group formed.

Talysh_Azerbaijan: 17.0
Kurdish: 12.2
Iranian_Mazandarani: 12.0
Ezid: 10.4
Iranian_Lor: 9.6
Iranian_Fars: 9.2
Iranian_Zoroastrian: 7.6

What's your own theory? The forum is dead when it comes to topics regarding West Asians so you might aswell just write it here anyways.

are you using these samples for the model?

IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Levant_PPNC,0.067156,0.168578,-0.023004,-0.150842,0.028621,-0.071954,-0.013866,-0.017999,0.077719,0.037905,0.006496,-0.013188,0.032705,-0.000275,-0.014929,0.008486,-0.000913,-0.007728,-0.013575,0.012381,-0.009982,0.01014,0.002958,0.003012,-0.001916

digital_noise
10-09-2020, 08:02 PM
Not G25 but here are my FiL andMiL's results from 23 andme

40137
40138

Helves
10-09-2020, 10:51 PM
are you using these samples for the model?

IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
Levant_PPNC,0.067156,0.168578,-0.023004,-0.150842,0.028621,-0.071954,-0.013866,-0.017999,0.077719,0.037905,0.006496,-0.013188,0.032705,-0.000275,-0.014929,0.008486,-0.000913,-0.007728,-0.013575,0.012381,-0.009982,0.01014,0.002958,0.003012,-0.001916


I used Natufians instead of PPNC and I also added MNG North N and Shahr e Sokhta 2 BA to capture East and South Asian admix.

Halgurd
10-09-2020, 11:13 PM
I think it is because the Zoroastrain samples are from 2 regions Isfahan and Yazd. They represent pretty much central Iran DNA which some Kurds will cline towards as the only North Iranian samples we have are the Mazandarani samples who have high amounts of Iran_N/Teppe Hisser. If we had more samples from regions like Tehran I guess most of the Kurdish samples might get them first. My father like Kurdistani gets Zoroastrains and Fars first as well.

I have my own theory about the original location of where Kurmanji/Sorani were, but thats for another day.

Private message me your theory pismam, I am interested.

Xeon
10-11-2020, 06:36 PM
It would be great to have more regional samples, although for Kurds there seems to be only small variance. Tat poeple, Gilakis and Persians from Northern Iran would be nice to have. Also I find the Fars Persians a bit suspicious the East Asian admix seems really high.

When it comes to where in Iran the various Iranic speakers today formed I have a theory based on the amount of CHG admixture. A simple run with CHG/Ganj Dareh/Barcin/Natufian/Steppe + extra East Asian and South Asian.
Here's the amount of CHG for the various groups. IMO the higher CHG the further north in Iran the group formed.

Talysh_Azerbaijan: 17.0
Kurdish: 12.2
Iranian_Mazandarani: 12.0
Ezid: 10.4
Iranian_Lor: 9.6
Iranian_Fars: 9.2
Iranian_Zoroastrian: 7.6

What's your own theory? The forum is dead when it comes to topics regarding West Asians so you might aswell just write it here anyways.

I have a feeling that tats and gilakis are more or less the same as mazandaranis. I doubt they will be distinguishable.

Helves
10-12-2020, 04:31 PM
I have a feeling that tats and gilakis are more or less the same as mazandaranis. I doubt they will be distinguishable.

Gilakis and Mazandaranis being similar I suppose won't be a surprise, but I think Tati will be closer to Talysh.

Alkaevli
10-13-2020, 11:36 AM
Itís not mostly central asian turkic, itís identical to modern turks - they are hardly more than 10-15% central asian. Other part is anatolian/caucasus.
What's your definition of Central Asian? If it's based on Medieval Turkic samples from Kazakhstan, then modern Turks are more Central Asian than that.

KAZ_Karluk:
https://abload.de/img/adszkakk6.png
https://abload.de/img/adsz2ttkln.png

KAZ_Karakhanid:
https://abload.de/img/a148kay.png
https://abload.de/img/a22vjze.png

KAZ_Turk:
https://abload.de/img/b12ik0k.png
https://abload.de/img/b2lpjx5.png



Doesnít seem to be more than 20:

Target: TUR_IA
Distance: 1.9887% / 0.01988748 | ADC: 0.25x RC
26.4 Lebanese_Muslim
21.4 Azeri
16.8 Nogai
15.4 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
13.4 Kabardin
6.6 Chuvash

TUR_IA:MA2198 has ~13% East Eurasian admixture, so it is definitely more than 20%. The Nogai average on G25 is very close to Karakalpak. Chuvash, Kabardin, Azeri and even Lebanese_Muslim have East Eurasian ancestry in varying levels. Anyway, that's not a proper model to estimate it. TUR_IA:MA2198 seems to have ~30% Central Asian ancestry when Anatolian/Aegean Greeks and Karluks are used in the model.

Despite its suspicious proximity to modern Turkish genetic profile, there is still a possibility that TUR_IA:MA2198 is an Iron Age sample.

Target: TUR_IA:MA2198
Distance: 2.6623% / 0.02662250
31.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2205
26.0 MDA_Cimmerian:cim359
24.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA:MA2200
17.8 MDA_Cimmerian:cim358

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/10/a-closer-look-at-couple-of-ancients.html?m=1

"The models for MA2198 aren't quite as statistically sound, but they still work, and indeed suggest that this individual might be in large part of Cimmerian origin."

Mithra 𐎷𐎰𐎼
10-20-2020, 10:21 AM
Here is mine. Lur(Bakhtiyari) from Khuzestan.

Target: Mithra_scaled
Distance: 2.4239% / 0.02423921
37.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.4 Levant_PPNC
17.4 TUR_Barcin_N
12.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.6 GEO_CHG
0.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Helves
10-20-2020, 12:51 PM
Here is mine. Lur(Bakhtiyari) from Khuzestan.

Target: Mithra_scaled
Distance: 2.4239% / 0.02423921
37.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.4 Levant_PPNC
17.4 TUR_Barcin_N
12.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.6 GEO_CHG
0.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

No East Asian at all. What you score if you swap PPNC with Natufian?

Mithra 𐎷𐎰𐎼
10-20-2020, 01:07 PM
No East Asian at all. What you score if you swap PPNC with Natufian?

Natufian instead of PPNC:

Target: Mithra_scaled
Distance: 2.7956% / 0.02795560
38.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
29.8 TUR_Barcin_N
12.0 Levant_Natufian
10.2 GEO_CHG
10.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Helves
10-20-2020, 01:12 PM
Natufian instead of PPNC:

Target: Mithra_scaled
Distance: 2.7956% / 0.02795560
38.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
29.8 TUR_Barcin_N
12.0 Levant_Natufian
10.2 GEO_CHG
10.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Great thanks. I suspect you have a lot of Elamite heritage with that rather low Steppe.

Buxoro
10-20-2020, 04:51 PM
Here is mine. Lur(Bakhtiyari) from Khuzestan.

Target: Mithra_scaled
Distance: 2.4239% / 0.02423921
37.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.4 Levant_PPNC
17.4 TUR_Barcin_N
12.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.6 GEO_CHG
0.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Oh well.
I have the strong feeling that Iranians from North Horasaan and Razavi Horasaan should have least Levant in Iran (closest to motherland Central Asia). But we don’t any samples from Horasaan, right?

Xeon
10-20-2020, 05:05 PM
Oh well.
I have the strong feeling that Iranians from North Horasaan and Razavi Horasaan should have least Levant in Iran (closest to motherland Central Asia). But we don’t any samples from Horasaan, right?

Levant decreases in the east in the same way steppe decreases in the west. Khorasan has a lot of east asian from the Mongolian rape/sacking of Persian speaking central asian cities. The Mongolian influence in Mashhad is clearly obvious. They may have higher steppe but at the same time they have a lot of east asian for a west asian.

Xeon
10-20-2020, 05:07 PM
Great thanks. I suspect you have a lot of Elamite heritage with that rather low Steppe.

It seems like the low steppe from him and I is replaced with a higher CHG that would lack in other Iranian populations with higher steppe

Buxoro
10-20-2020, 05:39 PM
Levant decreases in the east in the same way steppe decreases in the west. Khorasan has a lot of east asian from the Mongolian rape/sacking of Persian speaking central asian cities. The Mongolian influence in Mashhad is clearly obvious. They may have higher steppe but at the same time they have a lot of east asian for a west asian.

More east asian than in Azeris or Turks? I doubt that. Anyways, despite their east asian admixtures, both Azeris and Turks are western asian people.

Xeon
10-20-2020, 06:13 PM
More east asian than in Azeris or Turks? I doubt that. Anyways, despite their east asian admixtures, both Azeris and Turks are western asian people.

I have seen people from Mashhad who look identical to hazaars so yes, much more east asian than Azeris. At it's lowest, they should be on par. Some Persians from Mashhad can look even Azeris due to their east asian features

Buxoro
10-20-2020, 06:30 PM
I have seen people from Mashhad who look identical to hazaars so yes, much more east asian than Azeris. At it's lowest, they should be on par. Some Persians from Mashhad can look even Azeris due to their east asian features

But in Mashhad there are Horasaan Turks and Afghans, not only Persians. Those were probably not Persians.

Xeon
10-20-2020, 06:44 PM
But in Mashhad there are Horasaan Turks and Afghans, not only Persians. Those were probably not Persians.

While I cant confirm their exact background, I am specifically talking about Persian speaking individuals. Turkmens have their own look.

Buxoro
10-20-2020, 06:45 PM
Btw was playing with g25 and decided to model “all iranian + mongoloid sources” just to see the result (however with central asian sources the distance would be better):
Target: BuxoroFatherUnscaled
Distance: 1.9949% / 0.01994855 | ADC: 0.5x RC
58.8 Iranian_Fars
12.4 Iranian_Jew
12.4 Khakass
10.4 Eskimo_Chaplin
6.0 Iranian_Lor

Target: BuxoroFatherUnscaled
Distance: 1.9390% / 0.01939030 | ADC: 0.25x RC
47.8 Iranian_Fars
17.2 Iranian_Mazandarani
11.6 Iranian_Jew
7.8 Khakass
6.8 Eskimo_Chaplin
4.0 Nenets
2.6 Eskimo_Sireniki
2.2 Nivkh

Target: BuxoroFatherUnscaled
Distance: 1.9319% / 0.01931903
43.4 Iranian_Fars
20.6 Iranian_Mazandarani
11.0 Iranian_Jew
7.6 Khakass
7.4 Eskimo_Chaplin
4.4 Nenets
2.6 Nivkh
1.6 Ngumba
1.4 Eskimo_Sireniki

Helves
10-20-2020, 06:51 PM
It seems like the low steppe from him and I is replaced with a higher CHG that would lack in other Iranian populations with higher steppe

I think the region, Luristan and adjacent areas seem to have the least Steppe input in all of Iran. The CHG in the Luri average is similar to Fars Persians but you score pretty high of it.

ancestryfan1994
10-20-2020, 07:03 PM
One on the biggest concentration of Afghans within Iran is actually in Mashhad, most of them being Hazara.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00210860701269535

Mithra 𐎷𐎰𐎼
10-20-2020, 07:31 PM
Great thanks. I suspect you have a lot of Elamite heritage with that rather low Steppe.

Yes, the range for Yamnaya is 10-15% depending on the model. I usually use the Chalcolithic Iranian, way better distance. Hope we get some Elamites and/or Sumerian samples soon, I have a feeling that they will be very close to me.

Buxoro
10-20-2020, 07:43 PM
No all East Asian is bad, the more Western Asia the better. :)

I doubt that (Steppe + Central Asia all the way). But that battle is not for this forum anyways.

Mithra 𐎷𐎰𐎼
10-20-2020, 07:51 PM
What do you think about this modelling:

TKM_IA is the proxy for Iranian tribes coming in from Central Asia.

Target: Mithra_scaled
Distance: 1.6517% / 0.01651673
33.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
32.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
24.8 TKM_IA
10.0 BedouinB
0.0 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
0.0 MNG_Mongol

I have Seyyed ancestors on my paternal side so the 5% above average of BedouinB is from Islamic period.

Did they same with Xeon Coordinates:
Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.1420% / 0.02142012
49.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
25.4 TKM_IA
19.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
4.0 BedouinB
1.8 MNG_Mongol
0.0 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C

For comparison the Iron Age Iranian (BedouinB is pre-Islam/Arabic):

Target: IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
Distance: 2.8689% / 0.02868909
49.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
24.4 TKM_IA
14.2 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
6.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
4.2 BedouinB
1.2 MNG_Mongol

Mithra 𐎷𐎰𐎼
10-20-2020, 07:54 PM
I doubt that (Steppe + Central Asia all the way). But that battle is not for this forum anyways.

Western Asia is the cradle of Civilization ;) just kidding. I am still interested in your fathers Coordinates. Does he get close to Tajiks ?

Helves
10-20-2020, 07:55 PM
Yes, the range for Yamnaya is 10-15% depending on the model. I usually use the Chalcolithic Iranian, way better distance. Hope we get some Elamites and/or Sumerian samples soon, I have a feeling that they will be very close to me.

Agreed, when calculating Steppe ancestry we should be using samples more recent in time.

Can you try this modell aswell?

IRN_Seh_Gabi_C,0.0799038,0.1186138,-0.1042362,-0.054264,-0.067151,-0.0124944,0.005499,-0.0086302,-0.0478176,-0.0168748,0.0024684,0.0005096,-0.001427,-0.0011558,0.0034204,0.0170244,-0.0028684,0.0046622,0.0082206,-0.014682,0.0070626,-0.005787,-0.0015282,-0.0162432,0.0072566
SYR_Ebla_EMBA,0.0919897,0.1485443,-0.0651733,-0.095432,-0.0144361,-0.0369149,-0.0034183,-0.0085171,0.0012643,0.0095922,0.0093005,-0.0033243,0.0091225,-3.75e-05,-0.0105985,0.0009522,-0.0016595,0.000691,0.0035425,-0.0003752,0.0012025,0.0049575,-0.0019272,-0.0025085,-0.0002941
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2,0.043708,-0.0327002,-0.170006,0.0950268,-0.1047582,0.0568936,0.0063452,0.0041998,0.0056858, 0.0067428,-0.0051964,0.0079128,-0.0018436,-0.0031928,0.0098534,0.0097852,-0.0023732,0.0025084,0.0016342,-0.0142568,0.0029694,-0.0125136,-0.0011832,-0.0119052,0.001317
KAZ_Karluk,0.0631715,-0.151822,0.0173475,-0.0008075,-0.0467775,-0.0029285,0.004935,0.01223,-0.016055,-0.010205,-0.020055,-0.000824,0,-0.0026835,0.0107895,-0.0039115,-0.0137555,0.004181,0.0072905,-0.0019385,-0.0099825,-0.002164,-0.001479,-0.0019885,0.004071
TKM_IA,0.103579,0.093429,-0.018102,0.042313,-0.035083,0.025937,0.003525,-0.003461,-0.044382,-0.040821,-0.011042,-0.00045,0.000595,-0.018579,0.024158,0.017369,-0.01356,-0.000887,0.001508,-0.01138,0.001248,0.000989,0.001849,0.009037,0.0019 16

Mithra 𐎷𐎰𐎼
10-20-2020, 08:01 PM
Agreed, when calculating Steppe ancestry we should be using samples more recent in time.

Can you try this modell aswell?

IRN_Seh_Gabi_C,0.0799038,0.1186138,-0.1042362,-0.054264,-0.067151,-0.0124944,0.005499,-0.0086302,-0.0478176,-0.0168748,0.0024684,0.0005096,-0.001427,-0.0011558,0.0034204,0.0170244,-0.0028684,0.0046622,0.0082206,-0.014682,0.0070626,-0.005787,-0.0015282,-0.0162432,0.0072566
SYR_Ebla_EMBA,0.0919897,0.1485443,-0.0651733,-0.095432,-0.0144361,-0.0369149,-0.0034183,-0.0085171,0.0012643,0.0095922,0.0093005,-0.0033243,0.0091225,-3.75e-05,-0.0105985,0.0009522,-0.0016595,0.000691,0.0035425,-0.0003752,0.0012025,0.0049575,-0.0019272,-0.0025085,-0.0002941
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2,0.043708,-0.0327002,-0.170006,0.0950268,-0.1047582,0.0568936,0.0063452,0.0041998,0.0056858, 0.0067428,-0.0051964,0.0079128,-0.0018436,-0.0031928,0.0098534,0.0097852,-0.0023732,0.0025084,0.0016342,-0.0142568,0.0029694,-0.0125136,-0.0011832,-0.0119052,0.001317
KAZ_Karluk,0.0631715,-0.151822,0.0173475,-0.0008075,-0.0467775,-0.0029285,0.004935,0.01223,-0.016055,-0.010205,-0.020055,-0.000824,0,-0.0026835,0.0107895,-0.0039115,-0.0137555,0.004181,0.0072905,-0.0019385,-0.0099825,-0.002164,-0.001479,-0.0019885,0.004071
TKM_IA,0.103579,0.093429,-0.018102,0.042313,-0.035083,0.025937,0.003525,-0.003461,-0.044382,-0.040821,-0.011042,-0.00045,0.000595,-0.018579,0.024158,0.017369,-0.01356,-0.000887,0.001508,-0.01138,0.001248,0.000989,0.001849,0.009037,0.0019 16

Target: Mithra_scaled
Distance: 1.7293% / 0.01729341
45.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
28.4 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
25.4 TKM_IA
0.6 KAZ_Karluk
0.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Hmm.. that's interesting and unexpected. Any idea why the samples from Ebla get 30% ?

Buxoro
10-20-2020, 08:02 PM
Western Asia is the cradle of Civilization ;) just kidding. I am still interested in your fathers Coordinates. Does he get close to Tajiks ?

No he is closer to Turkmens

Helves
10-20-2020, 08:07 PM
Target: Mithra_scaled
Distance: 1.7293% / 0.01729341
45.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
28.4 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
25.4 TKM_IA
0.6 KAZ_Karluk
0.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Hmm.. that's interesting and unexpected. Any idea why the samples from Ebla get 30% ?

Your results look normal, all Iranians including the Zoroastrian average from Yazd score high of it. I think it's probably from Bronze and Iron Age movements of Mespotamians into Iran.

Buxoro
10-20-2020, 08:07 PM
With added RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.3260% / 0.04326006 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.8 KAZ_Karluk
19.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
18.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
14.0 TKM_IA

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.1088% / 0.04108803 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.4 KAZ_Karluk
27.8 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
13.2 TKM_IA
8.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.1113% / 0.04111288
43.6 KAZ_Karluk
28.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
14.0 TKM_IA
8.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

StarDS9
10-20-2020, 08:07 PM
This how me and parents with Helves run

Target: StarDS9
Distance: 3.0788% / 0.03078758
34.4 TKM_IA
31.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
26.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
6.2 KAZ_Karluk
1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: StarDS9_Mom
Distance: 3.3815% / 0.03381521
42.4 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
33.2 TKM_IA
13.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
7.6 KAZ_Karluk
3.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: StarDS9_Dad
Distance: 2.2088% / 0.02208841
37.2 TKM_IA
28.4 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
26.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
8.2 KAZ_Karluk

Helves
10-20-2020, 08:12 PM
With added RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.3260% / 0.04326006 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.8 KAZ_Karluk
19.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
18.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
14.0 TKM_IA

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.1088% / 0.04108803 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.4 KAZ_Karluk
27.8 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
13.2 TKM_IA
8.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.1113% / 0.04111288
43.6 KAZ_Karluk
28.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
14.0 TKM_IA
8.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
If your father is Tajik Persian then he might require a BMAC source in addition to TKM_IA.

This how me and parents with Helves run

Target: StarDS9
Distance: 3.0788% / 0.03078758
34.4 TKM_IA
31.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
26.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
6.2 KAZ_Karluk
1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: StarDS9_Mom
Distance: 3.3815% / 0.03381521
42.4 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
33.2 TKM_IA
13.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
7.6 KAZ_Karluk
3.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: StarDS9_Dad
Distance: 2.2088% / 0.02208841
37.2 TKM_IA
28.4 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
26.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
8.2 KAZ_Karluk
Thanks. I think for Northern Kurds Arslantepe_EBA works better than the Eblaites, less Natufian more Anatolian farmer.

Buxoro
10-20-2020, 08:14 PM
If your father is Tajik Persian then he might require a BMAC source in addition to TKM_IA.

Thanks. I think for Northern Kurds Arslantepe_EBA works better than the Eblaites, less Natufian more Anatolian farmer.

Do you have suggestion which sample is better?

Helves
10-20-2020, 08:17 PM
Do you have suggestion which sample is better?

UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA,0.0780206,0.0867815,-0.1166675,-0.0024959,-0.0896671,0.0194716,0.0081611,-0.0042795,-0.0616917,-0.0368116,-0.0019339,0.0020164,-0.0042435,-0.0054048,0.0155215,0.0290132,-0.0005926,0.0016469,0.0038166,-0.0196687,0.0009982,-0.0144786,0.0017815,-0.0149418,0.0103418
UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA,0.0813021,0.0764549,-0.1100653,0.0094131,-0.0975127,0.0232676,0.0047,-0.0089339,-0.0625259,-0.0395713,0.0016936,-0.0010277,-0.0001274,-0.0121304,0.0200089,0.026537,-0.0060907,0.0029863,0.0027113,-0.0196344,0.0007131,-0.0107049,-0.0014439,-0.0143564,0.0090667
TKM_Gonur1_BA,0.0797711,0.0788728,-0.1109992,0.0083172,-0.0985823,0.0210331,0.0070112,-0.006269,-0.0638796,-0.0407905,-0.0022328,0.0026476,-0.0055005,-0.0064683,0.0183108,0.0248938,-0.0047916,0.0007389,0.0045462,-0.0232508,-0.0020797,-0.0143128,-0.0016537,-0.0157552,0.0111767


Try these three see which one works best.

StarDS9
10-20-2020, 08:18 PM
If your father is Tajik Persian then he might require a BMAC source in addition to TKM_IA.

Thanks. I think for Northern Kurds Arslantepe_EBA works better than the Eblaites, less Natufian more Anatolian farmer.

Decreases the TKM_IA a bit

Target: StarDS9
Distance: 2.8564% / 0.02856432
39.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
31.0 TKM_IA
19.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
6.6 KAZ_Karluk
3.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: StarDS9_Mom
Distance: 2.9789% / 0.02978914
52.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
28.6 TKM_IA
8.0 KAZ_Karluk
7.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
3.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Target: StarDS9_Dad
Distance: 2.1184% / 0.02118353
34.2 TKM_IA
33.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
22.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
8.8 KAZ_Karluk
1.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Xeon
10-20-2020, 08:20 PM
What do you think about this modelling:

TKM_IA is the proxy for Iranian tribes coming in from Central Asia.

Target: Mithra_scaled
Distance: 1.6517% / 0.01651673
33.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
32.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
24.8 TKM_IA
10.0 BedouinB
0.0 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
0.0 MNG_Mongol

I have Seyyed ancestors on my paternal side so the 5% above average of BedouinB is from Islamic period.

Did they same with Xeon Coordinates:
Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.1420% / 0.02142012
49.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
25.4 TKM_IA
19.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
4.0 BedouinB
1.8 MNG_Mongol
0.0 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C

For comparison the Iron Age Iranian (BedouinB is pre-Islam/Arabic):

Target: IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
Distance: 2.8689% / 0.02868909
49.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
24.4 TKM_IA
14.2 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
6.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
4.2 BedouinB
1.2 MNG_Mongol

What's the main difference between seh gabi and firuz

Helves
10-20-2020, 08:22 PM
Decreases the TKM_IA a bit

Target: StarDS9
Distance: 2.8564% / 0.02856432
39.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
31.0 TKM_IA
19.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
6.6 KAZ_Karluk
3.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: StarDS9_Mom
Distance: 2.9789% / 0.02978914
52.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
28.6 TKM_IA
8.0 KAZ_Karluk
7.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
3.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Target: StarDS9_Dad
Distance: 2.1184% / 0.02118353
34.2 TKM_IA
33.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
22.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
8.8 KAZ_Karluk
1.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

I do think Ebla_EMBA is the more logical choice atm and is preferred for all the Iranian averages, but the Kurdish average and I suppose many Turkish Kurds prefer a source with a bit less Natufian such as Arslantepe_EBA. Probably due to minor Armenian and Turkish-like admix.

Buxoro
10-20-2020, 08:26 PM
UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA,0.0780206,0.0867815,-0.1166675,-0.0024959,-0.0896671,0.0194716,0.0081611,-0.0042795,-0.0616917,-0.0368116,-0.0019339,0.0020164,-0.0042435,-0.0054048,0.0155215,0.0290132,-0.0005926,0.0016469,0.0038166,-0.0196687,0.0009982,-0.0144786,0.0017815,-0.0149418,0.0103418
UZB_Dzharkutan1_BA,0.0813021,0.0764549,-0.1100653,0.0094131,-0.0975127,0.0232676,0.0047,-0.0089339,-0.0625259,-0.0395713,0.0016936,-0.0010277,-0.0001274,-0.0121304,0.0200089,0.026537,-0.0060907,0.0029863,0.0027113,-0.0196344,0.0007131,-0.0107049,-0.0014439,-0.0143564,0.0090667
TKM_Gonur1_BA,0.0797711,0.0788728,-0.1109992,0.0083172,-0.0985823,0.0210331,0.0070112,-0.006269,-0.0638796,-0.0407905,-0.0022328,0.0026476,-0.0055005,-0.0064683,0.0183108,0.0248938,-0.0047916,0.0007389,0.0045462,-0.0232508,-0.0020797,-0.0143128,-0.0016537,-0.0157552,0.0111767


Try these three see which one works best.

Results stay the same he doesn’t acore any of the 3

Helves
10-20-2020, 08:27 PM
What do you think about this modelling:

TKM_IA is the proxy for Iranian tribes coming in from Central Asia.

Target: Mithra_scaled
Distance: 1.6517% / 0.01651673
33.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
32.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
24.8 TKM_IA
10.0 BedouinB
0.0 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
0.0 MNG_Mongol

I have Seyyed ancestors on my paternal side so the 5% above average of BedouinB is from Islamic period.

Did they same with Xeon Coordinates:
Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.1420% / 0.02142012
49.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
25.4 TKM_IA
19.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
4.0 BedouinB
1.8 MNG_Mongol
0.0 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C

For comparison the Iron Age Iranian (BedouinB is pre-Islam/Arabic):

Target: IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
Distance: 2.8689% / 0.02868909
49.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
24.4 TKM_IA
14.2 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
6.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
4.2 BedouinB
1.2 MNG_Mongol

I think that the Hajji_Firuz_C average is too old to work as a pre Iranic base. It's averaged to around 6000BC. I'm not even sure we can call it a Copper Age sample, more like Late Neolithic. Also it's from the far NW corner of Iran near the Turkish border so not exactly where Persians or even other Western Iranians originated. To me the Seh Gabi samples are the more logical choice.

Helves
10-20-2020, 08:30 PM
Results stay the same he doesn’t acore any of the 3

Weird. What is your father's ancestry exactly? If you don't mind.

Xeon
10-20-2020, 08:44 PM
Central Asian Persians aren’t decendants of proto-persians dwelling in Central Asia. They are a mix of pre-islamic east iranics (like soghdians) + post-islamic persian farmers / landowners from Iranian plateau (see Dehqans (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehqan)) + turkic + mongolian.

My thoughts exactly. They are for the most part persianized in language. Persian language itself evolved and originated within Iran ever since the avestan tribes brought it over. So any Persian speaking central asia community is a persianized eastern Iranian. There was a language shift in places like tajikistan while they were united with mainland Iran.
Proto Persians themselves were probably the same as other eastern Iranians at the time
I assume this is the main reason that caused the inevitable death of most eastern Iranian languages.

StarDS9
10-20-2020, 08:49 PM
First mention of Persians was by Assyrian who placed them in around Lake Urmia with the Medes. Later they moved south.

Xeon
10-20-2020, 08:53 PM
First mention of Persians was by Assyrian who placed them in around Lake Urmia with the Medes. Later they moved south.

It makes sense considering they migrated from turkmenistan, probably went around the caspian belt and moved south to Fars

Xeon
10-20-2020, 09:05 PM
I think proto-persians originated in central asia.

I haven’t done modelling with all populations but I bet Turkmens, Uzbeks, Hazaras, Persian speaking Tajiks all have Iranian plateau ancestry due to post-Islamic persian migrations and Central Asian slave trade of Safavid iranians (they were usually raided/enslaved by the argument that they are shia / kuffars)

Old Persian is derived from avestan, which itself is an eastern iranian language related to sogdian for example. It evolved into old Persian within Iranian borders, around Fars province.

I believe old Persian has elamite influence which is why it's reasonable to assume that old Persian originated in Iran and not in central asia. At some point, prior to the Persian empire, old Persian formulated with elamite influence.

However, the avestan speaking tribes were proto Persians and mostly related to other eastern Iranians in central asia

Buxoro
10-20-2020, 09:09 PM
Weird. What is your father's ancestry exactly? If you don't mind.

What is weird exactly?

Helves
10-20-2020, 09:15 PM
What is weird exactly?

That he doesn't score any BMAC.

Buxoro
10-20-2020, 09:52 PM
That he doesn't score any BMAC.

His main score is TKM_Parkhai_Mba on ancient averages

Buxoro
10-21-2020, 07:24 AM
Central Asian Persians aren’t decendants of proto-persians dwelling in Central Asia. They are a mix of pre-islamic east iranics (like soghdians) + post-islamic persian farmers / landowners from Iranian plateau (see Dehqans (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehqan)) + turkic + mongolian.

Well they are but indeed they re heavily mixed

Mithra 𐎷𐎰𐎼
10-21-2020, 09:24 AM
With added RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.3260% / 0.04326006 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.8 KAZ_Karluk
19.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
18.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
14.0 TKM_IA

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.1088% / 0.04108803 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.4 KAZ_Karluk
27.8 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
13.2 TKM_IA
8.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.1113% / 0.04111288
43.6 KAZ_Karluk
28.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
14.0 TKM_IA
8.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Your father is way more Turkic than Iranian genetically. Are you sure he is Persian/Tajik? Tajiks usually score like 60-90% TKM_IA. Is he from Bukhara ?

Buxoro
10-21-2020, 09:37 AM
Your father is way more Turkic than Iranian genetically. Are you sure he is Persian/Tajik? Tajiks usually score like 60-90% TKM_IA. Is he from Bukhara ?

Suggest a model Iranian/Turkic/Mongol and i will run it and we will see. I am curious to check it myself.
Anyways here what he gets on all moderns:

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 1.6728% / 0.01672802
29.2 Brahui
21.0 Azeri
11.8 Greek_Trabzon
10.4 Eskimo_Chaplin
7.8 Sardinian
4.8 Mongolian
4.4 Mari
2.4 Malay
1.6 Ami
1.6 Moroccan_South
1.6 Turkmen
1.2 Cameroon_Aghem
0.6 Azeri_Turkey
0.6 Dinka
0.4 Abkhasian
0.4 Selkup
0.2 Egyptian

It does look different from Tajikistani Tajik (which is less mongoloid, more south central asian).

Mithra 𐎷𐎰𐎼
10-21-2020, 09:58 AM
Suggest a model Iranian/Turkic/Mongol and i will run it and we will see. I am curious to check it myself.
Anyways here what he gets on all moderns:

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 1.6728% / 0.01672802
29.2 Brahui
21.0 Azeri
11.8 Greek_Trabzon
10.4 Eskimo_Chaplin
7.8 Sardinian
4.8 Mongolian
4.4 Mari
2.4 Malay
1.6 Ami
1.6 Moroccan_South
1.6 Turkmen
1.2 Cameroon_Aghem
0.6 Azeri_Turkey
0.6 Dinka
0.4 Abkhasian
0.4 Selkup
0.2 Egyptian

It does look different from Tajikistani Tajik (which is less mongoloid, more south central asian).

Karluk for Turkic, Mongol for medivial Mongols, and Kushan for pre-Turkic Iranian Central Asia.

KAZ_Karluk,0.0631715,-0.151822,0.0173475,-0.0008075,-0.0467775,-0.0029285,0.004935,0.01223,-0.016055,-0.010205,-0.020055,-0.000824,0,-0.0026835,0.0107895,-0.0039115,-0.0137555,0.004181,0.0072905,-0.0019385,-0.0099825,-0.002164,-0.001479,-0.0019885,0.004071
MNG_Mongol,0.054066,-0.3005965,0.04186,-0.0214795,-0.035545,-0.0051595,0.014101,0.0134995,-0.007056,-0.002096,-0.0403535,-0.0041965,-0.0003715,-6.9e-05,0.002511,0.000464,0.000587,-0.0024705,0.0007545,0.006753,-0.0197155,0.001546,-0.0078265,-0.0005425,0.0026345
TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan,0.0978875,0.059408,-0.0297925,0.0240635,-0.052933,0.0086455,0.00141,-0.003,-0.034667,-0.0256955,0.0023545,0.001798,-0.000223,-0.0107345,0.00794,0.008618,-0.0017605,0.0076015,0.0079815,-0.01113,-0.0077365,-0.0013605,-0.000308,-0.0021085,0.001796

Buxoro
10-21-2020, 10:20 AM
Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 6.0754% / 0.06075413 | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.2 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
35.8 KAZ_Karluk

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 6.0754% / 0.06075413
64.2 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
35.8 KAZ_Karluk

Mithra 𐎷𐎰𐎼
10-21-2020, 10:24 AM
Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 6.0754% / 0.06075413 | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.2 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
35.8 KAZ_Karluk

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 6.0754% / 0.06075413
64.2 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
35.8 KAZ_Karluk

Distance is too high and why no Mongol ? Can you please turn on Print Zeroes ?

This looks better for Tajiks.Try this one:

Uzbek,0.0747819,-0.1087631,-0.0042991,0.0098838,-0.0346217,0.0081158,0.0072148,0.0046152,-0.0154007,-0.0099319,-0.0172781,-0.0040914,0.0030475,-0.006014,0.0052795,0.0029569,-0.0029858,-0.000532,0.0011566,-0.0008127,-0.0078363,-0.0016694,-0.0036356,0.0004337,0.0035207
MNG_Mongol,0.054066,-0.3005965,0.04186,-0.0214795,-0.035545,-0.0051595,0.014101,0.0134995,-0.007056,-0.002096,-0.0403535,-0.0041965,-0.0003715,-6.9e-05,0.002511,0.000464,0.000587,-0.0024705,0.0007545,0.006753,-0.0197155,0.001546,-0.0078265,-0.0005425,0.0026345
TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan,0.0978875,0.059408,-0.0297925,0.0240635,-0.052933,0.0086455,0.00141,-0.003,-0.034667,-0.0256955,0.0023545,0.001798,-0.000223,-0.0107345,0.00794,0.008618,-0.0017605,0.0076015,0.0079815,-0.01113,-0.0077365,-0.0013605,-0.000308,-0.0021085,0.001796
KAZ_Karluk,0.0631715,-0.151822,0.0173475,-0.0008075,-0.0467775,-0.0029285,0.004935,0.01223,-0.016055,-0.010205,-0.020055,-0.000824,0,-0.0026835,0.0107895,-0.0039115,-0.0137555,0.004181,0.0072905,-0.0019385,-0.0099825,-0.002164,-0.001479,-0.0019885,0.004071


Target: Tajik
Distance: 1.6676% / 0.01667646
72.4 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
27.6 Uzbek
0.0 KAZ_Karluk
0.0 MNG_Mongol

Buxoro
10-21-2020, 11:06 AM
Distance is too high and why no Mongol ? Can you please turn on Print Zeroes ?

This looks better for Tajiks.Try this one:

Uzbek,0.0747819,-0.1087631,-0.0042991,0.0098838,-0.0346217,0.0081158,0.0072148,0.0046152,-0.0154007,-0.0099319,-0.0172781,-0.0040914,0.0030475,-0.006014,0.0052795,0.0029569,-0.0029858,-0.000532,0.0011566,-0.0008127,-0.0078363,-0.0016694,-0.0036356,0.0004337,0.0035207
MNG_Mongol,0.054066,-0.3005965,0.04186,-0.0214795,-0.035545,-0.0051595,0.014101,0.0134995,-0.007056,-0.002096,-0.0403535,-0.0041965,-0.0003715,-6.9e-05,0.002511,0.000464,0.000587,-0.0024705,0.0007545,0.006753,-0.0197155,0.001546,-0.0078265,-0.0005425,0.0026345
TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan,0.0978875,0.059408,-0.0297925,0.0240635,-0.052933,0.0086455,0.00141,-0.003,-0.034667,-0.0256955,0.0023545,0.001798,-0.000223,-0.0107345,0.00794,0.008618,-0.0017605,0.0076015,0.0079815,-0.01113,-0.0077365,-0.0013605,-0.000308,-0.0021085,0.001796
KAZ_Karluk,0.0631715,-0.151822,0.0173475,-0.0008075,-0.0467775,-0.0029285,0.004935,0.01223,-0.016055,-0.010205,-0.020055,-0.000824,0,-0.0026835,0.0107895,-0.0039115,-0.0137555,0.004181,0.0072905,-0.0019385,-0.0099825,-0.002164,-0.001479,-0.0019885,0.004071


Target: Tajik
Distance: 1.6676% / 0.01667646
72.4 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
27.6 Uzbek
0.0 KAZ_Karluk
0.0 MNG_Mongol

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 6.0754% / 0.06075413
64.2 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
35.8 KAZ_Karluk
0.0 MNG_Mongol
0.0 Uzbek

Buxoro
10-21-2020, 01:42 PM
Distance is too high and why no Mongol ? Can you please turn on Print Zeroes ?

This looks better for Tajiks.Try this one:

Uzbek,0.0747819,-0.1087631,-0.0042991,0.0098838,-0.0346217,0.0081158,0.0072148,0.0046152,-0.0154007,-0.0099319,-0.0172781,-0.0040914,0.0030475,-0.006014,0.0052795,0.0029569,-0.0029858,-0.000532,0.0011566,-0.0008127,-0.0078363,-0.0016694,-0.0036356,0.0004337,0.0035207
MNG_Mongol,0.054066,-0.3005965,0.04186,-0.0214795,-0.035545,-0.0051595,0.014101,0.0134995,-0.007056,-0.002096,-0.0403535,-0.0041965,-0.0003715,-6.9e-05,0.002511,0.000464,0.000587,-0.0024705,0.0007545,0.006753,-0.0197155,0.001546,-0.0078265,-0.0005425,0.0026345
TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan,0.0978875,0.059408,-0.0297925,0.0240635,-0.052933,0.0086455,0.00141,-0.003,-0.034667,-0.0256955,0.0023545,0.001798,-0.000223,-0.0107345,0.00794,0.008618,-0.0017605,0.0076015,0.0079815,-0.01113,-0.0077365,-0.0013605,-0.000308,-0.0021085,0.001796
KAZ_Karluk,0.0631715,-0.151822,0.0173475,-0.0008075,-0.0467775,-0.0029285,0.004935,0.01223,-0.016055,-0.010205,-0.020055,-0.000824,0,-0.0026835,0.0107895,-0.0039115,-0.0137555,0.004181,0.0072905,-0.0019385,-0.0099825,-0.002164,-0.001479,-0.0019885,0.004071


Target: Tajik
Distance: 1.6676% / 0.01667646
72.4 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
27.6 Uzbek
0.0 KAZ_Karluk
0.0 MNG_Mongol

Any ideas on how to get a better distance?

pegasus
10-21-2020, 01:47 PM
Distance is too high and why no Mongol ? Can you please turn on Print Zeroes ?

This looks better for Tajiks.Try this one:

Uzbek,0.0747819,-0.1087631,-0.0042991,0.0098838,-0.0346217,0.0081158,0.0072148,0.0046152,-0.0154007,-0.0099319,-0.0172781,-0.0040914,0.0030475,-0.006014,0.0052795,0.0029569,-0.0029858,-0.000532,0.0011566,-0.0008127,-0.0078363,-0.0016694,-0.0036356,0.0004337,0.0035207
MNG_Mongol,0.054066,-0.3005965,0.04186,-0.0214795,-0.035545,-0.0051595,0.014101,0.0134995,-0.007056,-0.002096,-0.0403535,-0.0041965,-0.0003715,-6.9e-05,0.002511,0.000464,0.000587,-0.0024705,0.0007545,0.006753,-0.0197155,0.001546,-0.0078265,-0.0005425,0.0026345
TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan,0.0978875,0.059408,-0.0297925,0.0240635,-0.052933,0.0086455,0.00141,-0.003,-0.034667,-0.0256955,0.0023545,0.001798,-0.000223,-0.0107345,0.00794,0.008618,-0.0017605,0.0076015,0.0079815,-0.01113,-0.0077365,-0.0013605,-0.000308,-0.0021085,0.001796
KAZ_Karluk,0.0631715,-0.151822,0.0173475,-0.0008075,-0.0467775,-0.0029285,0.004935,0.01223,-0.016055,-0.010205,-0.020055,-0.000824,0,-0.0026835,0.0107895,-0.0039115,-0.0137555,0.004181,0.0072905,-0.0019385,-0.0099825,-0.002164,-0.001479,-0.0019885,0.004071


Target: Tajik
Distance: 1.6676% / 0.01667646
72.4 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
27.6 Uzbek
0.0 KAZ_Karluk
0.0 MNG_Mongol

Most Tajiks generally need little or no extra post BA Iran Chl related ancestry. With Pamiris, it is even more evident where they parsimoniously model best between some CA Nomadic population and an SPGT one. Though interestingly, Yagnobis definitely need significant excess Iran Chl related ancestry.



"sample": "Tajik:Average",
"distance": 0.885,
"KAZ_Kangju": 47,
"Barikot_IA": 19,
"Sappali_Tepe_BA": 14,
"Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2": 7,
"Mongola": 10.5,
"Hajji_Firuz_C": 2.5


"sample": "Tajik Shugnan:Average",
"distance": 1.1117,
"KAZ_Kangju": 69,
"Loebanr_IA": 31

Anyways, I just wanted to point that out.

Mithra 𐎷𐎰𐎼
10-21-2020, 02:03 PM
Any ideas on how to get a better distance?

No idea, weird results though. Your father doesn't even have any Uzbek. Where is he from ?

Buxoro
10-21-2020, 02:11 PM
No idea, weird results though. Your father doesn't even have any Uzbek. Where is he from ?

O'zbekiston, Buxoro

Mithra 𐎷𐎰𐎼
10-21-2020, 02:20 PM
O'zbekiston, Buxoro

Going by his results I would say he is Persianized and most of his ancestors were Oghuz Turks not even Uzbeks.

Buxoro
10-21-2020, 02:27 PM
Going by his results I would say he is Persianized and most of his ancestors were Oghuz Turks not even Uzbeks.

What makes you think so? I don’t see any evidence for such claims

Mithra 𐎷𐎰𐎼
10-21-2020, 02:47 PM
What makes you think so? I don’t see any evidence for such claims

Because of these results:
Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.3260% / 0.04326006 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.8 KAZ_Karluk
19.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
18.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
14.0 TKM_IA

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.1088% / 0.04108803 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.4 KAZ_Karluk
27.8 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
13.2 TKM_IA
8.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.1113% / 0.04111288
43.6 KAZ_Karluk
28.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
14.0 TKM_IA
8.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N


All of his Easteurasian DNA seems to be in Karluk(Oghuz Turkic) and he also doesn't score any Uzbek who were East Kiptcak. The Westeurasian side seems to be difficult to determine. Maybe there are other members for a better model.

Buxoro
10-21-2020, 03:07 PM
Because of these results:
Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.3260% / 0.04326006 | ADC: 0.5x RC
48.8 KAZ_Karluk
19.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
18.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
14.0 TKM_IA

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.1088% / 0.04108803 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.4 KAZ_Karluk
27.8 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
13.2 TKM_IA
8.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.1113% / 0.04111288
43.6 KAZ_Karluk
28.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
14.0 TKM_IA
8.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N


All of his Easteurasian DNA seems to be in Karluk(Oghuz Turkic) and he also doesn't score any Uzbek who were East Kiptcak. The Westeurasian side seems to be difficult to determine. Maybe there are other members for a better model.

I don’t think this is a proper model anyways. Also the distance is high. If you can suggest a better model i will appreciate it.
But given the proximity of Buxoro to Turkmenistan border it seems logical for some local turkic admixture to be of Oghuz branch. O'zbekiston is very diverse, and the most generic Uzbeks live in the northeastern O'zbekiston closer to Kyrghyzstan border.
I have also heard from Toshkenti Uzbeks that they don’t consider Bukharans or Samarqandi to be Uzbeks.

Mithra 𐎷𐎰𐎼
10-21-2020, 03:21 PM
I don’t think this is a proper model anyways. Also the distance is high. If you can suggest a better model i will appreciate it.
But given the proximity of Buxoro to Turkmenistan border it seems logical for some local turkic admixture to be of Oghuz branch. O'zbekiston is very diverse, and the most generic Uzbeks live in the northeastern O'zbekiston closer to Kyrghyzstan border.
I have also heard from Toshkenti Uzbeks that they don’t consider Bukharans or Samarqandi to be Uzbeks.

I have no idea for a better model, if I recall correctly we lack samples from Turkmenistan/Uzbekistan after the Iron Age and before Oghuz Period. These samples will be the key to successful model Central Asians. Bukharans and Samarqandi are Persian culturally, no doubt. Both were the centers of Islamic Persian Civilization in Central Asia. I think Samarqandians will be closer to Tajiks from Tajikistan genetically though.

Buxoro
10-21-2020, 03:21 PM
No idea, weird results though. Your father doesn't even have any Uzbek. Where is he from ?

Was trying to get better distance on your model, tried many things, but as for now Ganj_Dareh_historic reduces distance to 4% (haven’t found anything yet to get below 4%):
Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.1203% / 0.04120284 | ADC: 0.25x RC
54.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
45.8 KAZ_Karluk

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.1203% / 0.04120284
54.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
45.8 KAZ_Karluk

Buxoro
10-21-2020, 03:26 PM
Was trying to get better distance on your model, tried many things, but as for now Ganj_Dareh_historic reduces distance to 4% (haven’t found anything yet to get below 4%):
Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.1203% / 0.04120284 | ADC: 0.25x RC
54.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
45.8 KAZ_Karluk

Target: BuxoroFather_scaled
Distance: 4.1203% / 0.04120284
54.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
45.8 KAZ_Karluk

And myself:

Target: Buxoro_scaled
Distance: 2.0094% / 0.02009413 | ADC: 0.25x RC
47.6 Russian_Smolensk
29.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
23.0 KAZ_Karluk
0.2 Uzbek

Target: Buxoro_scaled
Distance: 2.0094% / 0.02009413
47.6 Russian_Smolensk
29.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
23.0 KAZ_Karluk
0.2 Uzbek

Buxoro
10-21-2020, 03:38 PM
I have no idea for a better model, if I recall correctly we lack samples from Turkmenistan/Uzbekistan after the Iron Age and before Oghuz Period. These samples will be the key to successful model Central Asians. Bukharans and Samarqandi are Persian culturally, no doubt. Both were the centers of Islamic Persian Civilization in Central Asia. I think Samarqandians will be closer to Tajiks from Tajikistan genetically though.
“Were” is the keyword. There was a strong uzbekification politics by post-soviet Uzbek government, some of persian speaking citizens left the country. I think the persian history in O'zbekiston is ended.
Uzbek government even wanted to forbid playing Tar instrument because it was regarded as a foreign (Tar music has a long tradition in Bukhara and Samarqand).

Xeon
10-21-2020, 05:34 PM
ďWereĒ is the keyword. There was a strong uzbekification politics by post-soviet Uzbek government, some of persian speaking citizens left the country. I think the persian history in O'zbekiston is ended.
Uzbek government even wanted to forbid playing Tar instrument because it was regarded as a foreign (Tar music has a long tradition in Bukhara and Samarqand).

That's pretty sad. You have other Turkic countries claiming that we are oppressing our Azeri brothers despite their massive significance in Iranian society today.

At the end of the day, the Persian influence on central asia can never be erased as it became a core part of it centuries ago. I was surprised to find out that even Kazakhs celebrate Nowruz

pegasus
10-22-2020, 01:07 AM
edit..

Buxoro
10-22-2020, 01:18 AM
That's pretty sad. You have other Turkic countries claiming that we are oppressing our Azeri brothers despite their massive significance in Iranian society today.

At the end of the day, the Persian influence on central asia can never be erased as it became a core part of it centuries ago. I was surprised to find out that even Kazakhs celebrate Nowruz

All muslims turkic people celebrate Nowruz, even Bashkirs and Kazan Tatars in Russia.

Buxoro
10-22-2020, 02:37 AM
Going by his results I would say he is Persianized and most of his ancestors were Oghuz Turks not even Uzbeks.

From Uzbek wiki:

X-asrda ularning boshqa qismi Buxoroga koʻchdi va oʻtroqlashdi.

Oʻgʻuzlarning ajdodlari oʻzbeklar, qozoqlar, qoraqalpoqlar, boshqirtlar, tatarlarni ham etnogenezida katta rol oʻynashgan.

In englis:

In the X century, another part of Oghuzs moved to Bukhara and settled there.

The ancestors of the Oghuzs also played a big role in the ethnogenesis of Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Karakalpaks, Bashkirs, Tatars.

Buxoro
10-22-2020, 05:02 AM
And myself:

Target: Buxoro_scaled
Distance: 2.0094% / 0.02009413 | ADC: 0.25x RC
47.6 Russian_Smolensk
29.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
23.0 KAZ_Karluk
0.2 Uzbek

Target: Buxoro_scaled
Distance: 2.0094% / 0.02009413
47.6 Russian_Smolensk
29.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
23.0 KAZ_Karluk
0.2 Uzbek

I find it interesting that these results are kinda similar to updated 23andme:
https://i.ibb.co/8NtBbd7/5-E4-F5-EC8-CB84-4-E44-915-E-62054-BB27842.jpg (https://ibb.co/PF0YM96)
https://i.ibb.co/sFNRRGL/2-EA31924-A65-E-4-EED-84-A5-468-CAF37-C9-D6.jpg (https://ibb.co/gDf99ps)
https://i.ibb.co/4KGJWJ0/C19-FD637-877-A-4-F1-B-92-A8-F20-C483-A8-EF5.jpg (https://ibb.co/gmp6y6c)

Buxoro
10-23-2020, 01:09 PM
Don’t want to steal the thread but here are updated 23andme of my Tajik (Uzbekistan) match, i will put it under spoiler (he doesn’t seem to score much Iranian, Caucasian and Messopotamian like i do (and even almost 50% for my father + other western asian) but mainly central asia - which is logical since 23andme has Tajik reference):
https://i.ibb.co/nLhVtfw/284-F0-D5-A-6357-48-BE-B338-A551-D5904-B04.jpg (https://ibb.co/CHxXDvw)
https://i.ibb.co/6JjShTZ/648675-A6-B738-40-D9-8992-A9-F31-E5-A713-F.jpg (https://ibb.co/7NsDcZz)
https://i.ibb.co/LSQbqh6/657-C5527-5-C03-453-A-8101-A1971-B136-DB7.jpg (https://ibb.co/8MzTR42)

Xeon
10-24-2020, 03:38 AM
Donít want to steal the thread but here are updated 23andme of my Tajik (Uzbekistan) match, i will put it under spoiler (he doesnít seem to score much Iranian, Caucasian and Messopotamian like i do (and even almost 50% for my father + other western asian) but mainly central asia - which is logical since 23andme has Tajik reference):
https://i.ibb.co/nLhVtfw/284-F0-D5-A-6357-48-BE-B338-A551-D5904-B04.jpg (https://ibb.co/CHxXDvw)
https://i.ibb.co/6JjShTZ/648675-A6-B738-40-D9-8992-A9-F31-E5-A713-F.jpg (https://ibb.co/7NsDcZz)
https://i.ibb.co/LSQbqh6/657-C5527-5-C03-453-A-8101-A1971-B136-DB7.jpg (https://ibb.co/8MzTR42)

Doesn't the average tajik get around 15-20% north eastern european on certain gedmatches? Why such a low European admixture on the tajik. Certainly their steppe must contribute to much more than 3%

Buxoro
10-24-2020, 04:40 AM
Doesn't the average tajik get around 15-20% north eastern european on certain gedmatches? Why such a low European admixture on the tajik. Certainly their steppe must contribute to much more than 3%

Some of it probably included in the Central Asian, since 23andme uses Tajiks as a reference
Need to add him to connections (i just asked about his origins) to see the region he scores. He was online more than a month ago tho (that’s my complaint also - most of my matches on 23andme doesn’t even log in after receiving their results and there is no response to messages).

Xeon
10-24-2020, 05:33 AM
Some of it probably included in the Central Asian, since 23andme uses Tajiks as a reference
Need to add him to connections (i just asked about his origins) to see the region he scores. He was online more than a month ago tho (that’s my complaint also - most of my matches on 23andme doesn’t even log in after receiving their results and there is no response to messages).

makes sense, they look at modern ancestry rather than ancient I guess

kyp.snow
11-02-2020, 04:04 PM
It would be great to have more regional samples, although for Kurds there seems to be only small variance. Tat poeple, Gilakis and Persians from Northern Iran would be nice to have. Also I find the Fars Persians a bit suspicious the East Asian admix seems really high.

When it comes to where in Iran the various Iranic speakers today formed I have a theory based on the amount of CHG admixture. A simple run with CHG/Ganj Dareh/Barcin/Natufian/Steppe + extra East Asian and South Asian.
Here's the amount of CHG for the various groups. IMO the higher CHG the further north in Iran the group formed.

Talysh_Azerbaijan: 17.0
Kurdish: 12.2
Iranian_Mazandarani: 12.0
Ezid: 10.4
Iranian_Lor: 9.6
Iranian_Fars: 9.2
Iranian_Zoroastrian: 7.6

What's your own theory? The forum is dead when it comes to topics regarding West Asians so you might aswell just write it here anyways.

The East Asian in Fars is not suspicious. There were multiple turkish speaking/Azerbaijani tribes throughout history in the Fars province. Also after searching for Iranian results on Gedmatch the last couple of months I came to the conclusion that around 3% East Asian is very normal for Persians to have. I contribute those to all of the assimilated Azerbaijani tribes all over Iran meaning recent Azerbaijani ancestry.

In case for "Northern Persians" like Alborz province etc.: I think a lot of them will be between Iranian Azerbaijanis and Isfahan genetically since the region was historically mixed Azerbaijani and Persian speaking. Semnan etc. are also not homogenous at all but are a mix of different tribes who came from all over Iran (Turks, Kurds, Lurs etc.) Natives of Semnan will probably be in between East Iran and Mazandaran. Western Semnan is not populated by native Semnanis at all but rather from different people like Azerbaijanis, Persians, Kurds etc. with the natives being a minority.

Tats will be closer to Kurds and Talysh than to Gilakis and Mazandaranis. Easy to tell because of geography.

I do have a lot of regional samples, but only for Gedmatch not g25.

Saba123
02-02-2021, 08:35 AM
Target: Saba_scaled
Distance: 2.2453% / 0.02245321 | ADC: 0.25x RC
48.0 Azeri_Turkey
42.4 Iranian_Mazandarani
8.0 Iranian_Bandari
1.6 Esan_Nigeria

Target: Saba_Unscaled
Distance: 1.5122% / 0.01512153 | ADC: 0.25x RC
63.0 Azeri_Turkey
20.8 Iranian_Mazandarani
13.0 Makrani
2.6 Igorot
0.6 Ju_hoan_North


Well damn I guess my Turkic/ East Asian heritage really came out with this G25 test.

Arbogan
02-02-2021, 09:14 AM
here are my results, im feyli in both sides:

Target: Arbogan_scaled
Distance: 1.7920% / 0.01792049
29.2 Kurdish
3.0 Lak
16.2 Makrani
8.8 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
42.6 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.2 Tibetan_Xunhua

Target: Arbogan_scaled
Distance: 2.5353% / 0.02535342
30.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
16.2 Levant_PPNB
14.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.8 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.8 Han
1.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.2 Nganassan

My top matches are Talysh Azerbaijan, Kurdish, other iranics, armenians and south-eastern turks and north-west-asian jews, and then various caucasus and levantine populations. I have no idea why Im most similar to the far nothern Talysh. I have no known ancestry beyond Ilam.

Saba123
02-02-2021, 09:39 AM
Target: Saba_scaled
Distance: 3.1133% / 0.03113279
32.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
25.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
24.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
2.8 Han
1.2 Levant_PPNB
0.8 Yoruba
0.6 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP
0.4 ETH_4500BP

Target: Saba_scaled
Distance: 1.0892% / 0.01089232
45.6 TKM_Parkhai_MBA
17.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
11.8 DEU_LBK_KD
8.2 RUS_Saltovo-Mayaki_low_res
3.6 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
3.2 Baltic_LTU_BA
2.8 TWN_Gongguan
2.6 PAK_Katelai_LBA
1.6 POL_BKG_N_o2
1.6 ZAF_2100BP
1.0 CHL_PicaOcho_700BP
0.2 KEN_Kakapel_900BP

I don't fully understand what these mean because I haven't heard of some of these lol. but heres G25 and ancient samples.

StarDS9
02-02-2021, 10:18 AM
here are my results, im feyli in both sides:

Target: Arbogan_scaled
Distance: 1.7920% / 0.01792049
29.2 Kurdish
3.0 Lak
16.2 Makrani
8.8 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
42.6 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.2 Tibetan_Xunhua

Target: Arbogan_scaled
Distance: 2.5353% / 0.02535342
30.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
16.2 Levant_PPNB
14.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.8 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.8 Han
1.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.2 Nganassan

My top matches are Talysh Azerbaijan, Kurdish, other iranics, armenians and south-eastern turks and north-west-asian jews, and then various caucasus and levantine populations. I have no idea why Im most similar to the far nothern Talysh. I have no known ancestry beyond Ilam.


Target: Saba_scaled
Distance: 3.1133% / 0.03113279
32.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
25.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
24.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
7.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
2.8 Han
1.2 Levant_PPNB
0.8 Yoruba
0.6 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP
0.4 ETH_4500BP

Target: Saba_scaled
Distance: 1.0892% / 0.01089232
45.6 TKM_Parkhai_MBA
17.8 Levant_Yehud_IBA
11.8 DEU_LBK_KD
8.2 RUS_Saltovo-Mayaki_low_res
3.6 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
3.2 Baltic_LTU_BA
2.8 TWN_Gongguan
2.6 PAK_Katelai_LBA
1.6 POL_BKG_N_o2
1.6 ZAF_2100BP
1.0 CHL_PicaOcho_700BP
0.2 KEN_Kakapel_900BP

I don't fully understand what these mean because I haven't heard of some of these lol. but heres G25 and ancient samples.

Try this one its pretty good. G25 is tricky if you don't use correct sources for your ancestry.


GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
MAR_EN,-0.1735805,0.0919055,-0.0258325,-0.083657,0.0283125,-0.0596825,-0.079316,0.021461,0.1500185,0.0043735,0.0222475,-0.0264515,0.075148,-0.0461725,0.069353,-0.03381,0.0171455,-0.05549,-0.1487635,0.0340785,-0.038245,-0.118212,0.0826995,-0.009941,0.021615
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N,0.0162197,-0.4440402,0.0722185,-0.0511148,-0.0373912,-0.0395328,0.0034075,0.0084802,0.0064935,0.019408,-0.048595,-0.004833,-0.0030848,0.0086702,-0.0096025,-0.0133915,-0.0007825,0.0089,0.0174408,0.0100362,0.008828,-0.027729,-0.0174702,-0.00244,-0.0145795
TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045

Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537

Arbogan
02-02-2021, 10:25 AM
could you list your 10 top matches for g25 scaled?

StarDS9
02-02-2021, 10:36 AM
could you list your 10 top matches for g25 scaled?

Both my parents have some Anatolian/Circassian ancestry, my father seems more Kurdish like. The Kurdish sample on G25 seem to have some Armenian/Assyrian mixture which why get poor fit with them.

Distance to: StarDS9_Mom_scaled
0.01997343 Azeri_Turkey
0.03223584 Azeri
0.03465425 Azeri_Dagestan
0.03744317 Turkish_East
0.03758303 Zaza_Dersim
0.03817420 Ezid
0.03954593 Iranian_Fars
0.03966649 Turkish_Adana
0.03995806 Iranian_Lor


Distance to: StarDS9_Dad_scaled
0.02625481 Iranian_Fars
0.02762449 Azeri
0.02803750 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.02856993 Ezid
0.02859091 Zaza_Dersim
0.03057637 Iranian_Seyyed
0.03144710 Azeri_Dagestan
0.03158649 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.03332198 Iranian_Lor
0.03333993 Iranian_B


Distance to: StarDS9_scaled
0.02566661 Azeri_Turkey
0.03041435 Zaza_Dersim
0.03147035 Iranian_Fars
0.03218184 Azeri
0.03237124 Ezid
0.03238076 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.03249944 Iranian_Lor
0.03329539 Azeri_Dagestan
0.03433253 Talysh_Azerbaijan

Xeon
02-02-2021, 12:42 PM
here are my results, im feyli in both sides:

My top matches are Talysh Azerbaijan, Kurdish, other iranics, armenians and south-eastern turks and north-west-asian jews, and then various caucasus and levantine populations. I have no idea why Im most similar to the far nothern Talysh. I have no known ancestry beyond Ilam.

Same here, I'm not sure why I am so closely related to Talysh. I think it might have to do with my higher CHG that draws me closer. I also didn't realize how close the Zaza average was to me either. here are my modern average distances,

Distance to: Xeon_scaled
0.02024311 Kurdish
0.02138834 Iranian_Lor
0.02186664 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.02518194 Ezid
0.02828278 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.02853592 Zaza_Dersim
0.03137294 Iranian_Fars
0.03454384 Iranian_Seyyed
0.03569980 Turkish_East
0.03765838 Azeri
0.03941760 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.04253161 Azeri_Turkey
0.04477979 Azeri_Dagestan
0.04534686 Mountain_Jew
0.04542738 Assyrian
0.04582526 Iranian_B
0.04640184 Georgian_Jew
0.05074608 Iranian_Jew
0.05126767 Armenian
0.05149737 Iraqi_B
0.05265432 Turkish_Adana
0.05330468 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05679339 Armenian_B
0.05852006 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.06139804 Turkish_Central
0.06141526 Turkish_B
0.06250141 Turkish_Trabzon
0.06465852 Greek_Trabzon
0.06504761 Georgian_Laz

Xeon
02-02-2021, 12:55 PM
Target: Saba_scaled
Distance: 2.2453% / 0.02245321 | ADC: 0.25x RC
48.0 Azeri_Turkey
42.4 Iranian_Mazandarani
8.0 Iranian_Bandari
1.6 Esan_Nigeria

Target: Saba_Unscaled
Distance: 1.5122% / 0.01512153 | ADC: 0.25x RC
63.0 Azeri_Turkey
20.8 Iranian_Mazandarani
13.0 Makrani
2.6 Igorot
0.6 Ju_hoan_North


Well damn I guess my Turkic/ East Asian heritage really came out with this G25 test.

I wonder if other Qashqais score the same amount of Azeri considering the distance between the 2 communities. They must've stayed pretty consistent due to tribalism.

StarDS9
02-02-2021, 01:55 PM
The Medieval sample from Kermanshah also has high CHG as well. It's likely Kurds from those regions also have that CHG thing.

Saba123
02-02-2021, 08:01 PM
Try this one its pretty good. G25 is tricky if you don't use correct sources for your ancestry.


GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
MAR_EN,-0.1735805,0.0919055,-0.0258325,-0.083657,0.0283125,-0.0596825,-0.079316,0.021461,0.1500185,0.0043735,0.0222475,-0.0264515,0.075148,-0.0461725,0.069353,-0.03381,0.0171455,-0.05549,-0.1487635,0.0340785,-0.038245,-0.118212,0.0826995,-0.009941,0.021615
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N,0.0162197,-0.4440402,0.0722185,-0.0511148,-0.0373912,-0.0395328,0.0034075,0.0084802,0.0064935,0.019408,-0.048595,-0.004833,-0.0030848,0.0086702,-0.0096025,-0.0133915,-0.0007825,0.0089,0.0174408,0.0100362,0.008828,-0.027729,-0.0174702,-0.00244,-0.0145795
TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045

Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537

Target: Saba UNSCALED
Distance: 6.5305% / 0.06530493
30.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.8 TUR_Barcin_N
18.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
15.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.8 MAR_EN
3.6 WHG

Target: Saba_scaled
Distance: 4.0897% / 0.04089679
39.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
25.2 TUR_Barcin_N
11.4 Levant_PPNB
11.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.4 GEO_CHG
3.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

StarDS9
02-02-2021, 08:10 PM
Target: Saba UNSCALED
Distance: 6.5305% / 0.06530493
30.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.8 TUR_Barcin_N
18.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
15.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.8 MAR_EN
3.6 WHG

Target: Saba_scaled
Distance: 4.0897% / 0.04089679
39.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
25.2 TUR_Barcin_N
11.4 Levant_PPNB
11.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.4 GEO_CHG
3.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Those were for scaled only so ignore the unscaled you posted as you need unscaled coordinates for unscaled.

Your results seem similar to Lors with some Turkic mixture. Lors seem to have retained more of their Kassite and Elamite ancestry.

Arbogan
02-02-2021, 08:10 PM
The question is whether Kura-Axes or related Transcaucasian cultures transmitted some limited genetic influence into NW Iran which then lead to its diffusion into the Zagros via the spread of NW Iranian languages. The Talysh have definitively some CHG-like signature, as do kurds and related groups.

StarDS9
02-02-2021, 08:15 PM
The question is whether Kura-Axes or related Transcaucasian cultures transmitted some limited genetic influence into NW Iran which then lead to its diffusion into the Zagros via the spread of NW Iranian languages. The Talysh have definitively some CHG-like signature, as do kurds and related groups.

The phenomenon of the high CHG does not seem to be that prevalent in all Kurds, my father and the user Kurdistan seem to have relatively low compared to other Kurds and Lors.

It could likely be do to the Hurrians who are believed to have been Caucasian speakers.

Xeon
02-02-2021, 09:10 PM
The question is whether Kura-Axes or related Transcaucasian cultures transmitted some limited genetic influence into NW Iran which then lead to its diffusion into the Zagros via the spread of NW Iranian languages. The Talysh have definitively some CHG-like signature, as do kurds and related groups.

I think it's because of the high affinity NW Iranians have to Hasanlu and Haji Firuz. They are probably a Kura Araxes related site. My results are practically identical to Hasanlu, from the Iron Age.

Distance to: Xeon_scaled
0.03026490 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
0.03027449 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
0.04180124 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
0.04612990 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
0.04939577 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
0.04948846 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
0.05019116 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin
0.05097425 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o
0.05642246 ARM_MBA
0.05671400 RUS_Maykop
0.05796515 ARM_LBA
0.05798759 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
0.05806154 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent
0.05827306 RUS_Maykop_Late
0.06019475 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps


Target: IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
Distance: 4.0436% / 0.04043560
37.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.6 Levant_PPNB
18.4 TUR_Barcin_N
13.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.0 GEO_CHG

Target: IRN_Hasanlu_IA
Distance: 3.1237% / 0.03123736
34.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.6 Levant_PPNB
20.0 TUR_Barcin_N
12.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.4 GEO_CHG

Target: Xeon_scaled
Distance: 2.7735% / 0.02773461
33.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
20.6 Levant_PPNC
18.4 TUR_Barcin_N
14.4 GEO_CHG
13.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Saba123
02-02-2021, 09:39 PM
Those were for scaled only so ignore the unscaled you posted as you need unscaled coordinates for unscaled.

Your results seem similar to Lors with some Turkic mixture. Lors seem to have retained more of their Kassite and Elamite ancestry.

Makes sense my mother's family is pretty heavily Bakhtiari and I am not super certain about the Qashqai lineage on my father's side but apparently, some of his ancestors spoke Lurish aswell as Turkish. They just are generally a pretty diverse admixed group so my full understanding of ethnic makeup is a little blurry.

Could you give an unscaled version of those samples for my unscaled coordinates. I am still trying to fully understand the pros and cons of scaled vs unscaled

Saba123
02-02-2021, 10:01 PM
Also do not know why I never posted the no Add distance columns G25 modern averages

Target: Saba_scaled
Distance: 2.1786% / 0.02178627
45.8 Iranian_Mazandarani
39.0 Azeri_Turkey
5.6 Makrani
4.6 Iraqi_Jew
2.4 Greek_Cappadocia
1.4 Esan_Nigeria
0.8 Dusun
0.2 Ju_hoan_North
0.2 Surui

Xeon
02-02-2021, 11:48 PM
The Medieval sample from Kermanshah also has high CHG as well. It's likely Kurds from those regions also have that CHG thing.

Do you have the sample?

Arbogan
02-03-2021, 05:24 AM
Could you post your 25 top distance list. Im curious if its similar to mine.

Saba123
02-03-2021, 07:46 AM
Could you post your 25 top distance list. Im curious if its similar to mine.

Distance to: Saba_scaled
0.03333333 Iranian_Fars
0.03352041 Iranian_Lor
0.03420796 Iranian_Seyyed
0.03617224 Iranian_B
0.03716011 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.03849326 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.03963743 Ezid
0.03967057 Azeri_Turkey
0.04216662 Azeri
0.04267502 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.04616869 Kurdish
0.04803918 Zaza_Dersim
0.04903613 Azeri_Dagestan
0.05258480 Turkish_East
0.06048475 Turkish_Adana
0.06147929 Turkish_Kayseri
0.06168984 Parsi_Pakistan
0.06350995 Iranian_Bandari
0.06431354 Parsi_India
0.06514386 Turkish_Central
0.06779096 Iraqi_B
0.06804635 Mountain_Jew
0.06834080 Assyrian
0.06839774 Iranian_Jew
0.06876269 Georgian_Jew

on the unscaled modern avg

Distance to: Saba
0.01921513 Azeri_Turkey
0.02040256 Iranian_Lor
0.02117592 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.02298989 Iranian_Fars
0.02344834 Azeri
0.02367226 Ezid
0.02395895 Kurdish_Dersim
0.02427149 Iranian_Seyyed
0.02498703 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.02584039 Azeri_Dagestan
0.02647556 Kurdish
0.02738679 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.02749577 Parsi_Pakistan
0.02776238 Armenian
0.02794598 Turkish_East
0.02795659 Iranian_Jew
0.02797526 Turkish_Kayseri
0.02831294 Parsi_India
0.02884202 Turkish_Adana
0.02898140 Assyrian
0.02986418 Iranian_Bandari
0.03029804 Turkish_Central
0.03069910 Mountain_Jew
0.03096562 Georgian_Jew
0.03146078 Turkish_North

StarDS9
02-03-2021, 09:32 AM
Makes sense my mother's family is pretty heavily Bakhtiari and I am not super certain about the Qashqai lineage on my father's side but apparently, some of his ancestors spoke Lurish aswell as Turkish. They just are generally a pretty diverse admixed group so my full understanding of ethnic makeup is a little blurry.

Could you give an unscaled version of those samples for my unscaled coordinates. I am still trying to fully understand the pros and cons of scaled vs unscaled


TUR_Barcin_N,0.0103318,0.0177364,0.0009364,-0.0313182,0.0165864,-0.01735,-0.0018545,-0.0030045,0.0177136,0.0443091,0.0049091,0.0079273,-0.0157773,0.0003409,-0.0309318,-0.0076864,0.0178773,0.0015682,0.0108955,-0.0077955,-0.0114,0.0046682,-0.0033455,-0.0026273,-0.0036273
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.00378,0.00654,-0.04112,0.00146,-0.03986,0.00844,0.00728,-0.00052,-0.04036,-0.02986,-0.00174,-0.00108,0.00302,-0.00456,0.02332,0.04234,-0.00416,0.00542,0.01086,-0.02672,0.00686,-0.02332,-0.00898,-0.03264,0.01856
WHG,0.01095,0.01145,0.049,0.0586,0.05025,0.01665,0 .0056,0.01615,0.04355,0.00975,-0.00945,-0.01055,0.0107,-0.0022,0.0393,0.0439,0.00385,0.0129,-0.0074,0.04445,0.0757,0.00905,-0.04025,-0.1335,0.0142
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.0110333,0.0087667,0.0113222,0 .0357111,-0.0093333,0.0161556,0.0015333,-0.0011111,-0.0273333,-0.04,0.0011222,2.22e-05,-0.0018111,-0.0169333,0.0269778,0.0118889,-0.0009444,-0.0014111,-0.0030556,0.0110111,-0.0025444,0.0006111,0.0089778,0.0154444,-0.0037889
GEO_CHG,0.008,0.0101,-0.0221,-0.001,-0.028,0.0074,0.0106,-8e-04,-0.0627,-0.041,-0.0039,0.016,-0.0369,0.0032,0.0196,-0.0247,0.0183,-0.0106,-0.0177,0.0278,0.0271,-0.0057,0.0053,-0.0214,-0.0017
Levant_PPNB,0.0064,0.01614,-0.00838,-0.04214,0.01082,-0.02314,-0.00572,-0.0064,0.03626,0.01976,0.01158,-0.01006,0.02404,0.00186,-0.01604,0.0046,0.00752,-0.00104,-0.00376,0.01504,-0.00144,0.00578,0.00072,-0.00472,-0.00314
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N,0.001425,-0.043725,0.01915,-0.015825,-0.01215,-0.014175,0.00145,0.003675,0.003175,0.01065,-0.029925,-0.003225,-0.002075,0.0063,-0.007075,-0.0101,-6e-04,0.007025,0.013875,0.008025,0.007075,-0.022425,-0.014175,-0.002025,-0.012175
MAR_EN,-0.01525,0.00905,-0.00685,-0.0259,0.0092,-0.0214,-0.03375,0.0093,0.07335,0.0024,0.0137,-0.01765,0.05055,-0.03355,0.0511,-0.0255,0.01315,-0.0438,-0.11835,0.02725,-0.03065,-0.0956,0.0671,-0.00825,0.01805

StarDS9
02-03-2021, 09:43 AM
Do you have the sample?

It's the sample under Ancients Ganj Dareh Historic. But looking at again, it seems to have high stepp rather then CHG and lower Turkey_Barcin_N.

Target: IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
Distance: 4.3794% / 0.04379445
29.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 Levant_PPNB
19.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.6 TUR_Barcin_N
11.8 GEO_CHG
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

These are 2 results of Kurds from Iran, one is Feyli from Ilam and other unknown location.

Target: Kurd_Iran
Distance: 2.7077% / 0.02707653
37.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
24.8 Levant_PPNB
15.8 TUR_Barcin_N
15.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.0 GEO_CHG
2.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: Feyli_Kurd_Iran
Distance: 2.7265% / 0.02726509
39.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.0 Levant_PPNB
17.8 TUR_Barcin_N
17.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Xeon
02-03-2021, 10:44 AM
It's the sample under Ancients Ganj Dareh Historic. But looking at again, it seems to have high stepp rather then CHG and lower Turkey_Barcin_N.

Target: IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
Distance: 4.3794% / 0.04379445
29.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 Levant_PPNB
19.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.6 TUR_Barcin_N
11.8 GEO_CHG
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

These are 2 results of Kurds from Iran, one is Feyli from Ilam and other unknown location.

Target: Kurd_Iran
Distance: 2.7077% / 0.02707653
37.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
24.8 Levant_PPNB
15.8 TUR_Barcin_N
15.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.0 GEO_CHG
2.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: Feyli_Kurd_Iran
Distance: 2.7265% / 0.02726509
39.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.0 Levant_PPNB
17.8 TUR_Barcin_N
17.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

High indeed damn, comparable to North ossetians for example

StarDS9
02-03-2021, 10:59 AM
High indeed damn, comparable to North ossetians for example

I think the reason Kurds have higher steppe compared to Lors might be do to Kurdish regions had more Ancient Iranian settlements, first with the Medes and Sycthians(Saka) and later with the Parthians.

There was recently discovered Parthian settlements found in Kurdistan Province and reliefs in Iraqi Kurdistan.

Xeon
02-03-2021, 11:13 AM
Yeah that seems right

davit
02-03-2021, 11:13 AM
It's the sample under Ancients Ganj Dareh Historic. But looking at again, it seems to have high stepp rather then CHG and lower Turkey_Barcin_N.

Target: IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
Distance: 4.3794% / 0.04379445
29.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 Levant_PPNB
19.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.6 TUR_Barcin_N
11.8 GEO_CHG
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

These are 2 results of Kurds from Iran, one is Feyli from Ilam and other unknown location.

Target: Kurd_Iran
Distance: 2.7077% / 0.02707653
37.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
24.8 Levant_PPNB
15.8 TUR_Barcin_N
15.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.0 GEO_CHG
2.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: Feyli_Kurd_Iran
Distance: 2.7265% / 0.02726509
39.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
23.0 Levant_PPNB
17.8 TUR_Barcin_N
17.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Is there a reason Yamnaya_RUS_Samara is in these models as opposed to one of the Steppe_MLBA samples?

StarDS9
02-03-2021, 02:01 PM
Is there a reason Yamnaya_RUS_Samara is in these models as opposed to one of the Steppe_MLBA samples?

Because calculator is based more on Neolithic times. To have Sintasha will have to have calculator with chalcolithic iran and Bronze age Central Asia.

DMXX
02-03-2021, 09:28 PM
High indeed damn, comparable to North ossetians for example

They're not the only one.

My results from GenoPlot (https://genoplot.com/g25):

Sample:AGUsers ► DMXX
Fit:2.3776
Results:Ganj Dareh N36
Barcin N21.5
Yamnaya RUS Samara19
Levant PPNB17
Devils Gate Cave N4
GEO CHG2.5

A cross-comparison with various W. Asian groups (Iranian plateau and S. Caucasus):

SampleFitGanj Dareh NBarcin NYamnaya RUS SamaraGEO CHGLevant PPNBDevils Gate Cave NIranian Mazandarani ► Average2.3346.520.5131091
Iranian Zoroastrian ► Average1.86392019.55160.5
AGUsers ► DMXX2.313622192.516.54
Kurdish ► Average2.01332413.511.517.50.5
Ezid ► Average1.7332.523.5168.518.51
Azeri ► Average2.05262313.51418.55
Armenian ► Average2.882236616200
Azeri Dagestan ► Average2.5420252219.5103.5
Turkish Trabzon ► Average2.6614.541.53.52812.50
Chechen ► Average2.73724.528.535.531.5
North Ossetian ► Average2.9142418.544.55.53.5

So, yes, Zoroastrians and a minority of W-NW Iranians (i.e. Azeri Iranians and Kurds) do indeed have North Caucasus-tier levels of EMBA steppe ancestry. Folks such as StarDS9, myself and NK19191 sit in that 'hyper-steppe' group.

I'd attribute some part of that to the Kura-Araxes phenomenon - The later samples that we have seem to show some degree of EHG-related ancestry (which may be related to the proto-Armenians, or some other unattested IE branch, may explain Hajji Firuz BA).

StarDS9
02-03-2021, 10:17 PM
They're not the only one.

My results from GenoPlot (https://genoplot.com/g25):

Sample:AGUsers ► DMXX
Fit:2.3776
Results:Ganj Dareh N36
Barcin N21.5
Yamnaya RUS Samara19
Levant PPNB17
Devils Gate Cave N4
GEO CHG2.5

A cross-comparison with various W. Asian groups (Iranian plateau and S. Caucasus):

SampleFitGanj Dareh NBarcin NYamnaya RUS SamaraGEO CHGLevant PPNBDevils Gate Cave NIranian Mazandarani ► Average2.3346.520.5131091
Iranian Zoroastrian ► Average1.86392019.55160.5
AGUsers ► DMXX2.313622192.516.54
Kurdish ► Average2.01332413.511.517.50.5
Ezid ► Average1.7332.523.5168.518.51
Azeri ► Average2.05262313.51418.55
Armenian ► Average2.882236616200
Azeri Dagestan ► Average2.5420252219.5103.5
Turkish Trabzon ► Average2.6614.541.53.52812.50
Chechen ► Average2.73724.528.535.531.5
North Ossetian ► Average2.9142418.544.55.53.5

So, yes, Zoroastrians and a minority of W-NW Iranians (i.e. Azeri Iranians and Kurds) do indeed have North Caucasus-tier levels of EMBA steppe ancestry. Folks such as StarDS9, myself and NK19191 sit in that 'hyper-steppe' group.

I'd attribute some part of that to the Kura-Araxes phenomenon - The later samples that we have seem to show some degree of EHG-related ancestry (which may be related to the proto-Armenians, or some other unattested IE branch, may explain Hajji Firuz BA).

Do you think some of the Steppe ancestry in Iranians might be pre-ancient Iranian? It's very possible do to the BA sample from West Iran. How would we be able to distinguish iranic steppe ancestry from the BA iran?

My father also has high steppe, higher then me, also the user Kurdistani who posted his results earlier posts.

DMXX
02-03-2021, 11:04 PM
Do you think some of the Steppe ancestry in Iranians might be pre-ancient Iranian? It's very possible do to the BA sample from West Iran. How would we be able to distinguish iranic steppe ancestry from the BA iran?


I think it's likely given a) Kura-Araxes' cultural expansion deep into Iran, b) a potential diffusion event secondary to the movement of the proto-Armenians (either from the west or north) and c) the Mitanni precursors.

Depending on one's point of view, the Gutians may have belonged to a (now-irretrievable) branch of IE, so that'd be a (very hotly-contested) d) for several big reasons (archaeological trail? material evidence? consistency of reconstructions and inferred sound changes from LPIE -> a hypothetical early Gutian? which direction? secondary evidence? etc.).

Regarding distinguishing between the ancestral streams, G25 data informally guides us on this:

SampleFitYamnaya RUS SamaraBarcin NGanj Dareh NGEO CHGLevant PPNBHajji Firuz BA ► Average2.2258.52111.554
Hasanlu IA ► Average2.7312213610.520.5
Hajji Firuz C ► Average2.44025.530.52024

Note that Hajji Firuz BA's Iran_N:Anatolia_N ratio is completely different to both the preceding (Hajji Firuz ChL) and successor (Hasanlu IA) samples. They're predominantly Yamnaya+Barcin, with seldom any CHG ancestry, implying they originated much further west (HF BA resembles some of the steppe-rich Anatolian-Levant BA samples).

By deduction through the above, I'd deduced that HF BA might've been a (pre?)-proto-Armenian speaker.

I don't think it's possible to separate HF BA-like steppe ancestry in modern NW-W Iranic-speakers/Iranians from later sources.
Just tried a model (see below).

SampleFitHasanlu IATitris Hoyuk EBATKM IAKAZ KipchakKAZ KarakhanidIranian Lor ► Average2.7376.59.57.53.53
Kurdish ► Average1.826716.51321.5
Ezid ► Average2.06591817.53.52
AGUsers ► DMXX2.38531517.59.55

SampleFitHasanlu IATitris Hoyuk EBAKAZ KarakhanidTKM IAKAZ KipchakHajji Firuz BAIranian Lor ► Average2.7281.57.54.541.51
Kurdish ► Average1.8369.5151.5923
Ezid ► Average2.1163.515.52.59.536
AGUsers ► DMXX2.496111.589.55.54.5

All the fits either remain the same or worsen, with the additional fact that the percentages appear to correlate with proximity to Anatolia (hence the Yazidi Kurd -> other Kurds + me -> Lurs chain).

qpAdm would offer more clarity, I'd imagine.



My father also has high steppe, higher then me, also the user Kurdistani who posted his results earlier posts.

Yes, we're comfortably in the top centile irrespective of the modeling. There's some component-dancing depending on the models used (that's the case with you and I).
There are two Azeri Iranians and at least one Yazidi Kurd who're slightly more steppe-shifted (1-2%) than myself.

Forgive me, but is it your mother or father's side that's 1/4 Circassian? If it's on your father's side, that'd explain the bump-up. Adyghei/Circassians are more Yamnaya-shifted on average than the 'extreme' W. Iranic cases we're discussing (GenoPlot again):

SampleFitGEO CHGBarcin NGanj Dareh NLevant PPNBYamnaya RUS SamaraDevils Gate Cave NGeorgian Imer ► Average2.7255.537610.50
Abkhasian ► Average2.545430.53.54.570.5
North Ossetian ► Average2.6445.52335.5185
Adygei ► Average2.4142.529.532.520.52
Chechen ► Average2.67352276291
Azeri Dagestan ► Average2.6119.526.520.58.5223

StarDS9
02-03-2021, 11:26 PM
.......

StarDS9
02-04-2021, 10:59 AM
These are results of Zaza's from Dersim, who also show high Steppe like the Kurmanji from Mardin.

Target: Zaza_Dersim
Distance: 2.4854% / 0.02485366
28.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
25.8 TUR_Barcin_N
18.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
16.0 Levant_PPNB
10.8 GEO_CHG
0.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Magnetic
02-04-2021, 09:37 PM
doesnt using yamnaya and chg at the same time underestimate the real steppe admix ? because yamnaya itself has chg

StarDS9
02-04-2021, 11:59 PM
I think it's likely given a) Kura-Araxes' cultural expansion deep into Iran, b) a potential diffusion event secondary to the movement of the proto-Armenians (either from the west or north) and c) the Mitanni precursors.

Depending on one's point of view, the Gutians may have belonged to a (now-irretrievable) branch of IE, so that'd be a (very hotly-contested) d) for several big reasons (archaeological trail? material evidence? consistency of reconstructions and inferred sound changes from LPIE -> a hypothetical early Gutian? which direction? secondary evidence? etc.).

Regarding distinguishing between the ancestral streams, G25 data informally guides us on this:

SampleFitYamnaya RUS SamaraBarcin NGanj Dareh NGEO CHGLevant PPNBHajji Firuz BA ► Average2.2258.52111.554
Hasanlu IA ► Average2.7312213610.520.5
Hajji Firuz C ► Average2.44025.530.52024

Note that Hajji Firuz BA's Iran_N:Anatolia_N ratio is completely different to both the preceding (Hajji Firuz ChL) and successor (Hasanlu IA) samples. They're predominantly Yamnaya+Barcin, with seldom any CHG ancestry, implying they originated much further west (HF BA resembles some of the steppe-rich Anatolian-Levant BA samples).

By deduction through the above, I'd deduced that HF BA might've been a (pre?)-proto-Armenian speaker.

I don't think it's possible to separate HF BA-like steppe ancestry in modern NW-W Iranic-speakers/Iranians from later sources.
Just tried a model (see below).

SampleFitHasanlu IATitris Hoyuk EBATKM IAKAZ KipchakKAZ KarakhanidIranian Lor ► Average2.7376.59.57.53.53
Kurdish ► Average1.826716.51321.5
Ezid ► Average2.06591817.53.52
AGUsers ► DMXX2.38531517.59.55

SampleFitHasanlu IATitris Hoyuk EBAKAZ KarakhanidTKM IAKAZ KipchakHajji Firuz BAIranian Lor ► Average2.7281.57.54.541.51
Kurdish ► Average1.8369.5151.5923
Ezid ► Average2.1163.515.52.59.536
AGUsers ► DMXX2.496111.589.55.54.5

All the fits either remain the same or worsen, with the additional fact that the percentages appear to correlate with proximity to Anatolia (hence the Yazidi Kurd -> other Kurds + me -> Lurs chain).

qpAdm would offer more clarity, I'd imagine.



Yes, we're comfortably in the top centile irrespective of the modeling. There's some component-dancing depending on the models used (that's the case with you and I).
There are two Azeri Iranians and at least one Yazidi Kurd who're slightly more steppe-shifted (1-2%) than myself.

Forgive me, but is it your mother or father's side that's 1/4 Circassian? If it's on your father's side, that'd explain the bump-up. Adyghei/Circassians are more Yamnaya-shifted on average than the 'extreme' W. Iranic cases we're discussing (GenoPlot again):

SampleFitGEO CHGBarcin NGanj Dareh NLevant PPNBYamnaya RUS SamaraDevils Gate Cave NGeorgian Imer ► Average2.7255.537610.50
Abkhasian ► Average2.545430.53.54.570.5
North Ossetian ► Average2.6445.52335.5185
Adygei ► Average2.4142.529.532.520.52
Chechen ► Average2.67352276291
Azeri Dagestan ► Average2.6119.526.520.58.5223

Apologies for deleting the previous post as I was a bit drunk whiles typing with my phone and it looked a little slurred.

Based on your runs I do not believe the BA group that settled in West Iran had much impact on the local Hajji Firuz C like people.. I would guess majority of the Steppe ancestey contribution to modern day Iranians is from Iranics. Looking at close populations like Assyrians and Armenians I find it to be the likely case.

As for my fathers Circassian ancestry. I am starting to have doubts if its 1/4 based on his results. Seems more like 1/8 as he is very Iranian shifted and his CHG seems relatively low. I believe my paternal grandnother was probably Kurdish with some Turkish and Circassian. Not as much I was told. I do not think ancestry and ethnicity of grandparents is not something that is discussed much among people in my region as intermarriage are common.

My father's G25 is on Genoplot if you wish to check it out, it is fine by me if you wish to post his results in future posts.

My mother seems to be more the one who seems to have none kurdish ancestry as she shows Anatolian and Circassian like ancestry. It could be that her Circassian like mixture might be something her ancestry already had in Iran and only her Anatolian like ancestry I would contribute to her non Kurdish mixture.

Xeon
02-05-2021, 01:24 AM
I do not think ancestry and ethnicity of grandparents is not something that is discussed much among people in my region as intermarriage are common.


For real, tell me about it. I can't track my background past my parents. Hahaha, seems like many Iranians simply don't give a shit about ancestry, might just be the case with heavily urbanized ones. Makes it a nightmare

Saba123
02-05-2021, 07:19 AM
TUR_Barcin_N,0.0103318,0.0177364,0.0009364,-0.0313182,0.0165864,-0.01735,-0.0018545,-0.0030045,0.0177136,0.0443091,0.0049091,0.0079273,-0.0157773,0.0003409,-0.0309318,-0.0076864,0.0178773,0.0015682,0.0108955,-0.0077955,-0.0114,0.0046682,-0.0033455,-0.0026273,-0.0036273
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.00378,0.00654,-0.04112,0.00146,-0.03986,0.00844,0.00728,-0.00052,-0.04036,-0.02986,-0.00174,-0.00108,0.00302,-0.00456,0.02332,0.04234,-0.00416,0.00542,0.01086,-0.02672,0.00686,-0.02332,-0.00898,-0.03264,0.01856
WHG,0.01095,0.01145,0.049,0.0586,0.05025,0.01665,0 .0056,0.01615,0.04355,0.00975,-0.00945,-0.01055,0.0107,-0.0022,0.0393,0.0439,0.00385,0.0129,-0.0074,0.04445,0.0757,0.00905,-0.04025,-0.1335,0.0142
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.0110333,0.0087667,0.0113222,0 .0357111,-0.0093333,0.0161556,0.0015333,-0.0011111,-0.0273333,-0.04,0.0011222,2.22e-05,-0.0018111,-0.0169333,0.0269778,0.0118889,-0.0009444,-0.0014111,-0.0030556,0.0110111,-0.0025444,0.0006111,0.0089778,0.0154444,-0.0037889
GEO_CHG,0.008,0.0101,-0.0221,-0.001,-0.028,0.0074,0.0106,-8e-04,-0.0627,-0.041,-0.0039,0.016,-0.0369,0.0032,0.0196,-0.0247,0.0183,-0.0106,-0.0177,0.0278,0.0271,-0.0057,0.0053,-0.0214,-0.0017
Levant_PPNB,0.0064,0.01614,-0.00838,-0.04214,0.01082,-0.02314,-0.00572,-0.0064,0.03626,0.01976,0.01158,-0.01006,0.02404,0.00186,-0.01604,0.0046,0.00752,-0.00104,-0.00376,0.01504,-0.00144,0.00578,0.00072,-0.00472,-0.00314
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N,0.001425,-0.043725,0.01915,-0.015825,-0.01215,-0.014175,0.00145,0.003675,0.003175,0.01065,-0.029925,-0.003225,-0.002075,0.0063,-0.007075,-0.0101,-6e-04,0.007025,0.013875,0.008025,0.007075,-0.022425,-0.014175,-0.002025,-0.012175
MAR_EN,-0.01525,0.00905,-0.00685,-0.0259,0.0092,-0.0214,-0.03375,0.0093,0.07335,0.0024,0.0137,-0.01765,0.05055,-0.03355,0.0511,-0.0255,0.01315,-0.0438,-0.11835,0.02725,-0.03065,-0.0956,0.0671,-0.00825,0.01805


Unscaled

Target: Saba
Distance: 2.9551% / 0.02955082
35.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
26.4 TUR_Barcin_N
13.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.4 Levant_PPNB
7.4 GEO_CHG
7.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

StarDS9
02-05-2021, 09:12 AM
Unscaled

Target: Saba
Distance: 2.9551% / 0.02955082
35.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
26.4 TUR_Barcin_N
13.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.4 Levant_PPNB
7.4 GEO_CHG
7.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

There is still a debate if Scaled or Unscaled is better to model ancestry. Davidski recommends scaled, where as others Unscaled. I would trust Davidski point of view as he has contributed a lot in the DNA community with his various projects.

Xeon
02-11-2021, 06:19 AM
doesnt using yamnaya and chg at the same time underestimate the real steppe admix ? because yamnaya itself has chg

Makes sense. In that case, that already high Yamnaya admixture may even reach the low 20s no?

Magnetic
02-11-2021, 07:46 AM
Makes sense. In that case, that already high Yamnaya admixture may even reach the low 20s no?

yes it definitely can

Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 2.0477% / 0.02047707
44.0 Iran_Late_Neolithic
23.6 Yamnaya/Steppe
20.6 Early_European_Farmer
10.2 Levant_Neolithic
1.0 AASI
0.6 Native_American


---

i get 17-18


Target: Magnetic_scaled
Distance: 3.0656% / 0.03065639
40.8 Iran_Late_Neolithic
27.4 Early_European_Farmer
17.6 Yamnaya/Steppe
11.6 Levant_Neolithic
1.4 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
1.2 Native_American

Helves
02-13-2021, 08:53 PM
I noticed that the Seh_Gabi_C average included one outlier(IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1670) so I created a new average wthout it. Thought I might share it here.


IRN_Seh_Gabi_C_New,0.0808145,0.12135575,-0.108328,-0.05563675,-0.066397,-0.0132475,0.00534625,-0.009634,-0.05092625,-0.01503425,0.0024765,0.00022475,0.002007,-0.00147925,0.00054325,0.01886075,-0.00045625,0.00142525,0.00864175,-0.01904025,0.00651975,-0.01097425,-0.015652,-0.01924975,0.0087415


Just to compare sample I1670 with the new average, there's a rather significant difference.

Target: IRN_Seh_Gabi_C_New
Distance: 4.0029% / 0.04002857
53.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
30.8 TUR_Barcin_N
9.8 GEO_CHG
5.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1670
Distance: 5.1600% / 0.05159962
36.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
27.0 GEO_CHG
21.2 TUR_Barcin_N
15.2 Levant_Natufian

Xeon
02-17-2021, 11:31 AM
I noticed that the Seh_Gabi_C average included one outlier(IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1670) so I created a new average wthout it. Thought I might share it here.


IRN_Seh_Gabi_C_New,0.0808145,0.12135575,-0.108328,-0.05563675,-0.066397,-0.0132475,0.00534625,-0.009634,-0.05092625,-0.01503425,0.0024765,0.00022475,0.002007,-0.00147925,0.00054325,0.01886075,-0.00045625,0.00142525,0.00864175,-0.01904025,0.00651975,-0.01097425,-0.015652,-0.01924975,0.0087415


Just to compare sample I1670 with the new average, there's a rather significant difference.

Target: IRN_Seh_Gabi_C_New
Distance: 4.0029% / 0.04002857
53.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
30.8 TUR_Barcin_N
9.8 GEO_CHG
5.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1670
Distance: 5.1600% / 0.05159962
36.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
27.0 GEO_CHG
21.2 TUR_Barcin_N
15.2 Levant_Natufian

The outlier seems to resemble a caucasian albanian of some sort. Very interesting

Helves
02-17-2021, 01:15 PM
The outlier seems to resemble a caucasian albanian of some sort. Very interesting

Yeah quite interesting he has different shifts(high Natufian but also high CHG at the same time), doesn't look like he's a recent arrival from somewhere rather a mix of several sources.

Target: IRN_Seh_Gabi_C:I1670
Distance: 3.6793% / 0.03679331 | R3P
45.4 Levant_Shadud_MLBA
43.8 TKM_Geoksyur_N
10.8 GEO_CHG

Xeon
02-24-2021, 12:47 AM
Makes sense my mother's family is pretty heavily Bakhtiari and I am not super certain about the Qashqai lineage on my father's side but apparently, some of his ancestors spoke Lurish aswell as Turkish. They just are generally a pretty diverse admixed group so my full understanding of ethnic makeup is a little blurry.

Could you give an unscaled version of those samples for my unscaled coordinates. I am still trying to fully understand the pros and cons of scaled vs unscaled

Your J2a subclade seems to be a very common amongst some other Lur samples that I've seen, seems to be pretty common in western Iran. I wonder if other turkic speaking Qashqais are simply turkified in language. For example, some turks in Iran and azerbaijan can trace their kin to a Turkic tribe like the Afshars and even have Turkic haplogroups.

ThaYamamoto
02-25-2021, 05:15 PM
Hello, does anyone know which region or ethnic group Iranian:11AM187 belongs to? Currently its labelled under Balochistan_Profile on my datasheet thanks to Michalis' great work but he/she is distant from both the Iran and Pakistan Baloch clusters but doesn't model quite like a Bandari either:


Distance to: Iranian_(Balochistan_Profile):11AM187
0.03616643 Iranian_Bandari
0.03627619 Makrani
0.04173952 Balochi
0.04325171 Brahui
0.04870142 Parsi_India
0.04905035 Parsi_Pakistan
0.06314311 Iranian_B
0.07038498 Iranian_Seyyed
0.07072144 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.07360259 Tarkalani
0.07442149 Iranian_Fars
0.07756193 Uthmankhel
0.07881556 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.08109105 Yusufzai
0.08495998 Iranian_Lor
0.08542594 Pashtun
0.08670670 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.08837859 Kalash
0.08884111 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.09105033 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.09120046 Tajik_Shugnan
0.09163464 Ezid
0.09242952 Kamboj
0.09336350 Kho_Singanali
0.09434561 Kurdish



Target: Iranian_(Balochistan_Profile):11AM187
Distance: 2.5867% / 0.02586692 | R3P
73.8 Brahui
22.8 Kurdish
3.4 Tunisian_Rbaya


Target: Iranian_(Balochistan_Profile):11AM187
Distance: 2.6331% / 0.02633087 | R4P
62.6 Brahui
21.4 Kurdish
16.0 Iranian_Bandari

heksindhi
02-25-2021, 06:45 PM
Hello, does anyone know which region or ethnic group Iranian:11AM187 belongs to? Currently its labelled under Balochistan_Profile on my datasheet thanks to Michalis' great work but he/she is distant from both the Iran and Pakistan Baloch clusters but doesn't model quite like a Bandari either:


This individual is almost certainly Baloch (mostly). The HGDP Baloch/Brahui samples are somewhat misleading in that they don't adequately reflect the diversity of Baloch outside the core populated Balochistan regions of Sarawan/Jahlwan/Kharan/Makran.
These regions have been populated since at least the Bronze age, and given that the HGDP samples are entirely from these regions, their genetic signature is skewed somewhat to the underlying base 'Gedrosian' ancestry. The Baloch outside these core regions are probably a better gauge of modern Baloch genetic structure. Keep in mind that the population of Baloch outside Balochistan far exceeds that within its boundaries. Possibly by a factor of 2X to 4X.

Unfortunately I only have simulated G25 coordinates, but here are a few results for some Baloch from Southern Sindh

SampleFitBrahuiKurdishYemenite Al BaydaSindhiBaloch4-sim0.6582.510.57
SindhiBaloch6-sim1.8178.5192.5
SindhiBaloch3-sim0.9178175
Iranian ► 11AM1871.6373.5224.5

ThaYamamoto
02-25-2021, 08:54 PM
This individual is almost certainly Baloch (mostly). The HGDP Baloch/Brahui samples are somewhat misleading in that they don't adequately reflect the diversity of Baloch outside the core populated Balochistan regions of Sarawan/Jahlwan/Kharan/Makran.
These regions have been populated since at least the Bronze age, and given that the HGDP samples are entirely from these regions, their genetic signature is skewed somewhat to the underlying base 'Gedrosian' ancestry. The Baloch outside these core regions are probably a better gauge of modern Baloch genetic structure. Keep in mind that the population of Baloch outside Balochistan far exceeds that within its boundaries. Possibly by a factor of 2X to 4X.

Unfortunately I only have simulated G25 coordinates, but here are a few results for some Baloch from Southern Sindh

SampleFitBrahuiKurdishYemenite Al BaydaSindhiBaloch4-sim0.6582.510.57
SindhiBaloch6-sim1.8178.5192.5
SindhiBaloch3-sim0.9178175
Iranian ► 11AM1871.6373.5224.5

Wow I didn't know that, great to know. So I'll keep them labeled as Iranian_Baloch then. I'm assuming Kurdish then in these better fitting/more representative Baloch is an ancestral indication of the proto-Baloch considering its a NW-Iranian language right? Never realised the current HGDP groups were off like that, maybe I'll relabel em Gedrosian or something.

Have you considered g25? Would be really interesting.

heksindhi
02-25-2021, 10:04 PM
Wow I didn't know that, great to know. So I'll keep them labeled as Iranian_Baloch then. I'm assuming Kurdish then in these better fitting/more representative Baloch is an ancestral indication of the proto-Baloch considering its a NW-Iranian language right?

I'm using Kurdish as a stand-in for west Iranian/Iranian plateau ancestry. NW Iranian languages are found across the southern Caspian and its more likely that the proto-Baloch originate from the southern/eastern Caspian region. My intention was not to suggest actual Kurdish ancestry for these samples, but rather that the HGDP Baloch have lower levels of plateau ancestry compared to the Baloch samples I've come across from outside Balochistan. A lot of the Baloch from Sindh and Multan/Derajat have Sindhi/Seraiki admixture, but nonetheless, they still fit this pattern of elevated plateau ancestry(relatively speaking).

ThaYamamoto
02-25-2021, 11:56 PM
I'm using Kurdish as a stand-in for west Iranian/Iranian plateau ancestry. NW Iranian languages are found across the southern Caspian and its more likely that the proto-Baloch originate from the southern/eastern Caspian region. My intention was not to suggest actual Kurdish ancestry for these samples, but rather that the HGDP Baloch have lower levels of plateau ancestry compared to the Baloch samples I've come across from outside Balochistan. A lot of the Baloch from Sindh and Multan/Derajat have Sindhi/Seraiki admixture, but nonetheless, they still fit this pattern of elevated plateau ancestry(relatively speaking).

Yeah I got that, obviously its just a proxy as it was in my model. The language itself must have come from a plateau-like group rather than the heavy Iran_N/Gedrosian that Baloch exhibit today, though. Is there any relation between Bandaris and the umbrella Baloch to your knowledge? I now share my largest segments on FTDNA with two Bandari ladies, one an expert in the Sultanate of Hormuz, apparently.

heksindhi
02-26-2021, 02:20 AM
Yeah I got that, obviously its just a proxy as it was in my model. The language itself must have come from a plateau-like group rather than the heavy Iran_N/Gedrosian that Baloch exhibit today, though. Is there any relation between Bandaris and the umbrella Baloch to your knowledge? I now share my largest segments on FTDNA with two Bandari ladies, one an expert in the Sultanate of Hormuz, apparently.

They're part of the same continuum. Bandar Abbas has always had a large Baloch population historically, and I have no doubt that at least some Bandari are assimilated Baloch. This is particularly true for Shia Baloch(yes, they exist...).

Xeon
02-26-2021, 03:13 AM
Yeah I got that, obviously its just a proxy as it was in my model. The language itself must have come from a plateau-like group rather than the heavy Iran_N/Gedrosian that Baloch exhibit today, though. Is there any relation between Bandaris and the umbrella Baloch to your knowledge? I now share my largest segments on FTDNA with two Bandari ladies, one an expert in the Sultanate of Hormuz, apparently.

Bandaris are a mix of multiple different sources. Balochis, arabs and in some cases east african. Afro Iranians live in and around the southern coast, amongst bandaris. Their diverse admixtures seems to shift them away from main land Iranians, pretty far from what I've seen on distances. Balochis are less diverse than bandaris but are also shifted towards south asia. They definitely cluster amongst their own but are closer to each other than to rest of Iran. Bandari is an umbrella term, it's very diverse, bandar Abbas was a major international trading hub for several iranian dynasties. Many different groups, mainly arabs and afro Iranians have settled in those areas

ThaYamamoto
02-26-2021, 03:39 AM
Bandaris are a mix of multiple different sources. Balochis, arabs and in some cases east african. Afro Iranians live in and around the southern coast, amongst bandaris. Their diverse admixtures seems to shift them away from main land Iranians, pretty far from what I've seen on distances. Balochis are less diverse than bandaris but are also shifted towards south asia. They definitely cluster amongst their own but are closer to each other than to rest of Iran. Bandari is an umbrella term, it's very diverse, bandar Abbas was a major international trading hub for several iranian dynasties. Many different groups, mainly arabs and afro Iranians have settled in those areas

Ahh I see, yeah they seem like a very diverse bunch. My own match claims 2 Bandari parents but emigrated to Oman [Al-Kamaali]. I'll run a admixture test on our shared segments see what pops up. From the newer set of Bandaris on the g25, around half seem to have plateau ancestry, the others don't [seems to be Baloch + Arab+ Indian+African etc]. Thought I should add that upon extensive review of these guys, due to having a big affinity with them, the Afro admixture in Iranians can only sometimes be particularly West-African i.e. non-Bantu instead of East-African. The one non-Bandari admixed Iranian [~9%] [generic plateau] has specifically Nigerian ancestry - I've tested this sample extensively. It lends credence to there being a network of trader outposts bringing in peoples from as far as the Bight of Benin. I've got a graphic somewhere that highlights this. But I've gone off on a tangent.

Is this sample not Bandari then? :

Target: Iranian_(SSA-Mixed_Profile):14AQ60
Distance: 1.9066% / 0.01906594 | R3P
71.0 Kurdish
19.4 Turkish_Southwest
9.6 Calabar_Niger-Cameroon


These are the Bandari that seem to have Persian/Plateau ancestry to my eye but I don't know to what degree Mazandarani or Azeri Turkey represents that adequately. Note that African scores are probably inflated due to pop. restriction. Am unsure about the individual that scores 'Mountain Jew'.

edit: the Mountain Jew individual is non-plateau admixed, Palestinian takes over if removed.


Target: Iranian_(Bandari_Profile):9AM185
Distance: 1.6320% / 0.01632045 | R3P
56.2 Makrani
27.6 Azeri_Turkey
16.2 Iranian_Mazandarani


Target: Iranian_(Bandari_Profile):3AQ112
Distance: 2.8587% / 0.02858657 | R3P
62.8 Balochi
33.6 Azeri_Turkey
3.6 Esan_Nigeria


Target: Iranian_(Bandari_Profile):15AQ111
Distance: 2.1576% / 0.02157583 | R3P
45.2 Iranian_Mazandarani
43.8 Parsi_India
11.0 Luhya_Kenya


Target: Iranian_(Bandari_Profile):14AQ111
Distance: 1.8866% / 0.01886582 | R3P
50.2 Iranian_Mazandarani
43.8 Makrani
6.0 Manyika


Target: Iranian_(Bandari_Profile):13AQ111
Distance: 2.0688% / 0.02068811 | R3P
53.8 Balochi
38.6 Azeri_Turkey
7.6 Cameroon_Bangwa


Target: Iranian_(Bandari_Profile):10AM187
Distance: 2.2686% / 0.02268595 | R3P
64.6 Brahui
27.4 Mountain_Jew
8.0 Mali_BAMBARA


Target: Iranian_(Bandari_Profile):1AQ112
Distance: 2.3323% / 0.02332264 | R3P
61.8 Iranian_Mazandarani
32.4 Balochi
5.8 Ronga

Target: Iranian_Bandari:BanII38
Distance: 2.0015% / 0.02001491 | R3P
75.4 Iranian_Mazandarani
21.2 Makrani
3.4 Manyika


Target: Iranian_Bandari:BanII80
Distance: 1.7557% / 0.01755723 | R3P
60.2 Balochi
35.4 Azeri_Turkey
4.4 Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator


Target: Iranian_Bandari:BanII4
Distance: 2.2412% / 0.02241247 | R3P
47.4 Brahui
43.8 Iranian_Mazandarani
8.8 Ethiopian_Agaw

Xeon
02-26-2021, 07:15 AM
Target: Iranian_(SSA-Mixed_Profile):14AQ60
Distance: 1.9066% / 0.01906594 | R3P
71.0 Kurdish
19.4 Turkish_Southwest
9.6 Calabar_Niger-Cameroon


This sample doesn't fit the bandari classification at all. The base ancestry of bandaris is primarily balochi which in itself is quite distant from plateau Iranians. So kurdish and turkish south western would be outliers for this population. The nigerian is interesting but like I said, anything is possible, southern Iran is very diverse. This individual could be a western iranian with an afro iranian great grandparent or something along that line.

These things happen due to internal migration all the time. Iranians marry outside of their own ethnic communities all the time.

Also, mountain jews are iranian jews from the Caucasus. They are still pretty close to Iranians but have a levant shift due to their jewish ancestry. So mountain jew can be used as a proxy for Iranians with semitic admixtures

AureliusDNA
03-12-2021, 01:13 PM
I'm an Turkish Alevi who's ancestors moved from Khorasan to Eastern Anatolia. My maternal side is from the Town of Tunceli and associated with Zazaki-Speakers. My paternal tribe is one of the founding tribes of the Safavid dynasty and has Turkish, Zazaki and Kirmanji speakers in what is today Turkey, Iran and the Republic of Azerbaijan.

Ancient Scaled:


Distance to: Aurelius_scaled
0.03308915 IRN_Hasanlu_IA:F38
0.04592700 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA:I2327
0.04792243 ARM_Lchashen_MBA:DA35
0.04862502 ARM_Lchashen_MBA:DA31
0.04987803 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5004
0.05026045 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o:I7493
0.05415147 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic:I1955
0.05504871 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1633
0.05604330 ARM_Areni_C:I1407
0.05614842 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5001
0.05637486 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan:I12292
0.05677861 ARM_MBA:I1656
0.05700840 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1635
0.05803633 RUS_Alan_MA:DA162
0.05832376 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin:I1658
0.05958910 ARM_LBA:RISE397
0.06132434 RUS_Maykop:OSS001
0.06156074 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349
0.06310021 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent:VEK007-009
0.06346851 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2:I10100
0.06495439 ARM_MBA:RISE423
0.06525148 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1:I2200
0.06537279 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR67
0.06683163 MNG_TUK001:TUK001
0.06782402 TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART018

Target: Aurelius_scaled
Distance: 1.2125% / 0.01212545 | R5P
38.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
31.4 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
18.0 RUS_Afanasievo
9.6 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
3.0 MNG_Late_Med



Ancient unscaled:


Distance to: Aurelius
0.01878617 IRN_Hasanlu_IA:F38
0.02502958 MNG_Early_Med_Uigur:OLN004
0.02669494 ARM_Lchashen_MBA:DA35
0.02728351 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o:I7493
0.02748854 ARM_Lchashen_MBA:DA31
0.02927063 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR67
0.02976642 MNG_Early_Med_Turk:TSB001
0.02993493 ARM_MBA:I1656
0.03042483 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan:I12292
0.03067165 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241
0.03087523 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349
0.03095400 ARM_Areni_C:I1407
0.03107217 RUS_Alan_MA:DA162
0.03108955 MNG_Early_Med_Uigur:OLN005
0.03137515 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1635
0.03141878 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5004
0.03150016 TUR_IA:MA2198
0.03163037 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1633
0.03230263 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA:I2327
0.03254243 KAZ_Kipchak:DA179
0.03320075 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5001
0.03344667 MNG_TUK001:TUK001
0.03376951 UZB_Sappali_Tepe2_BA:I7494
0.03394658 TUR_Ottoman:MA2196
0.03428804 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA018

Target: Aurelius
Distance: 0.6797% / 0.00679703 | R5P
35.2 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
25.6 TKM_Tepe_Anau_En
19.8 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
14.8 RUS_Afanasievo
4.6 CHN_Western_Liao_River_LN



Modern Averages scaled:


Distance to: Aurelius_scaled
0.02775464 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.02778089 Kurdish
0.03191692 Ezid
0.03230691 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.03441549 Zaza_Dersim
0.03641559 Iranian_Fars
0.03739419 Iranian_Lor
0.04112994 Iranian_Seyyed
0.04182134 Turkish_East
0.04199571 Azeri
0.04307183 Azeri_Dagestan
0.04584495 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.04802680 Iranian_B
0.05098058 Azeri_Turkey
0.05420412 Turkish_Adana
0.05430252 Georgian_Jew
0.05563712 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05592257 Mountain_Jew
0.05644148 Assyrian
0.05852285 Turkish_B
0.06031700 Armenian
0.06161620 Turkish_Central
0.06232628 Iranian_Jew
0.06247935 Kumyk
0.06280635 Iraqi_B


Target: Aurelius_scaled
Distance: 2.4197% / 0.02419725
75.0 Kurdish
9.4 Talysh_Azerbaijan
6.4 Tabasaran
5.2 Tarkalani
2.2 Cossack_Kuban
1.6 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.2 Han_Shanghai



Modern averages unscaled:


Distance to: Aurelius
0.01790938 Kurdish
0.01835598 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.02136314 Ezid
0.02146699 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.02230311 Iranian_Fars
0.02257493 Iranian_Seyyed
0.02318262 Azeri
0.02358936 Kurdish_Dersim
0.02402995 Iranian_Lor
0.02538573 Turkish_East
0.02588403 Azeri_Dagestan
0.02590917 Mountain_Jew
0.02599766 Georgian_Jew
0.02618166 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.02683257 Assyrian
0.02723727 Turkish_South
0.02771664 Turkish_Adana
0.02817912 Parsi_Pakistan
0.02821394 Parsi_India
0.02839085 Turkish_Southwest
0.02938406 Turkish_Kayseri
0.02942975 Armenian
0.02995935 Iranian_Jew
0.03020169 Turkish_Central
0.03084936 Tajik

Target: Aurelius
Distance: 1.6489% / 0.01648863 | R5P
78.8 Kurdish
7.4 Tabasaran
5.4 Tarkalani
5.0 Cossack_Kuban
3.4 Han_Shanghai

Halgurd
03-13-2021, 01:08 AM
I'm an Turkish Alevi who's ancestors moved from Khorasan to Eastern Anatolia. My maternal side is from the Town of Tunceli and associated with Zazaki-Speakers. My paternal tribe is one of the founding tribes of the Safavid dynasty and has Turkish, Zazaki and Kirmanji speakers in what is today Turkey, Iran and the Republic of Azerbaijan.

Ancient Scaled:


Distance to: Aurelius_scaled
0.03308915 IRN_Hasanlu_IA:F38
0.04592700 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA:I2327
0.04792243 ARM_Lchashen_MBA:DA35
0.04862502 ARM_Lchashen_MBA:DA31
0.04987803 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5004
0.05026045 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o:I7493
0.05415147 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic:I1955
0.05504871 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1633
0.05604330 ARM_Areni_C:I1407
0.05614842 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5001
0.05637486 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan:I12292
0.05677861 ARM_MBA:I1656
0.05700840 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1635
0.05803633 RUS_Alan_MA:DA162
0.05832376 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin:I1658
0.05958910 ARM_LBA:RISE397
0.06132434 RUS_Maykop:OSS001
0.06156074 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349
0.06310021 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent:VEK007-009
0.06346851 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2:I10100
0.06495439 ARM_MBA:RISE423
0.06525148 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1:I2200
0.06537279 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR67
0.06683163 MNG_TUK001:TUK001
0.06782402 TUR_Arslantepe_LC:ART018

Target: Aurelius_scaled
Distance: 1.2125% / 0.01212545 | R5P
38.0 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
31.4 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
18.0 RUS_Afanasievo
9.6 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
3.0 MNG_Late_Med



Ancient unscaled:


Distance to: Aurelius
0.01878617 IRN_Hasanlu_IA:F38
0.02502958 MNG_Early_Med_Uigur:OLN004
0.02669494 ARM_Lchashen_MBA:DA35
0.02728351 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o:I7493
0.02748854 ARM_Lchashen_MBA:DA31
0.02927063 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR67
0.02976642 MNG_Early_Med_Turk:TSB001
0.02993493 ARM_MBA:I1656
0.03042483 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan:I12292
0.03067165 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241
0.03087523 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349
0.03095400 ARM_Areni_C:I1407
0.03107217 RUS_Alan_MA:DA162
0.03108955 MNG_Early_Med_Uigur:OLN005
0.03137515 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1635
0.03141878 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5004
0.03150016 TUR_IA:MA2198
0.03163037 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan:I1633
0.03230263 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA:I2327
0.03254243 KAZ_Kipchak:DA179
0.03320075 RUS_Maykop_Late:MK5001
0.03344667 MNG_TUK001:TUK001
0.03376951 UZB_Sappali_Tepe2_BA:I7494
0.03394658 TUR_Ottoman:MA2196
0.03428804 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA:ALA018

Target: Aurelius
Distance: 0.6797% / 0.00679703 | R5P
35.2 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
25.6 TKM_Tepe_Anau_En
19.8 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
14.8 RUS_Afanasievo
4.6 CHN_Western_Liao_River_LN



Modern Averages scaled:


Distance to: Aurelius_scaled
0.02775464 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.02778089 Kurdish
0.03191692 Ezid
0.03230691 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.03441549 Zaza_Dersim
0.03641559 Iranian_Fars
0.03739419 Iranian_Lor
0.04112994 Iranian_Seyyed
0.04182134 Turkish_East
0.04199571 Azeri
0.04307183 Azeri_Dagestan
0.04584495 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.04802680 Iranian_B
0.05098058 Azeri_Turkey
0.05420412 Turkish_Adana
0.05430252 Georgian_Jew
0.05563712 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05592257 Mountain_Jew
0.05644148 Assyrian
0.05852285 Turkish_B
0.06031700 Armenian
0.06161620 Turkish_Central
0.06232628 Iranian_Jew
0.06247935 Kumyk
0.06280635 Iraqi_B


Target: Aurelius_scaled
Distance: 2.4197% / 0.02419725
75.0 Kurdish
9.4 Talysh_Azerbaijan
6.4 Tabasaran
5.2 Tarkalani
2.2 Cossack_Kuban
1.6 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.2 Han_Shanghai



Modern averages unscaled:


Distance to: Aurelius
0.01790938 Kurdish
0.01835598 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.02136314 Ezid
0.02146699 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.02230311 Iranian_Fars
0.02257493 Iranian_Seyyed
0.02318262 Azeri
0.02358936 Kurdish_Dersim
0.02402995 Iranian_Lor
0.02538573 Turkish_East
0.02588403 Azeri_Dagestan
0.02590917 Mountain_Jew
0.02599766 Georgian_Jew
0.02618166 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.02683257 Assyrian
0.02723727 Turkish_South
0.02771664 Turkish_Adana
0.02817912 Parsi_Pakistan
0.02821394 Parsi_India
0.02839085 Turkish_Southwest
0.02938406 Turkish_Kayseri
0.02942975 Armenian
0.02995935 Iranian_Jew
0.03020169 Turkish_Central
0.03084936 Tajik

Target: Aurelius
Distance: 1.6489% / 0.01648863 | R5P
78.8 Kurdish
7.4 Tabasaran
5.4 Tarkalani
5.0 Cossack_Kuban
3.4 Han_Shanghai



What is your tribe name? Your results are typical Kurdish.

J Man
03-13-2021, 01:17 AM
Your J2a subclade seems to be a very common amongst some other Lur samples that I've seen, seems to be pretty common in western Iran. I wonder if other turkic speaking Qashqais are simply turkified in language. For example, some turks in Iran and azerbaijan can trace their kin to a Turkic tribe like the Afshars and even have Turkic haplogroups.

Do you know of quite a few J2a Lur samples?

Xeon
03-13-2021, 11:39 AM
Do you know of quite a few J2a Lur samples?

Yeah a friend of mine, full Lur, belongs to J2a m47. I've seen other ones online as well. However I can't find much information regarding m47. Seems rare

J Man
03-13-2021, 02:10 PM
Yeah a friend of mine, full Lur, belongs to J2a m47. I've seen other ones online as well. However I can't find much information regarding m47. Seems rare

Very interesting...I am interested in Lur tribal structure. Is it ok if I PM you?

Xeon
03-13-2021, 10:47 PM
.
Can you run this model on ur coords?



GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Levant_PPNB,0.072847,0.1639064,-0.0316026,-0.1361132,0.0332986,-0.0645352,-0.0134426,-0.0147684,0.0741604,0.03601,0.0188046,-0.0150764,0.035738,0.0025596,-0.0217696,0.006099,0.0098048,-0.0013176,-0.0047264,0.0188088,-0.001797,0.0071472,0.0008872,-0.0056874,-0.0037602
MAR_EN,-0.1735805,0.0919055,-0.0258325,-0.083657,0.0283125,-0.0596825,-0.079316,0.021461,0.1500185,0.0043735,0.0222475,-0.0264515,0.075148,-0.0461725,0.069353,-0.03381,0.0171455,-0.05549,-0.1487635,0.0340785,-0.038245,-0.118212,0.0826995,-0.009941,0.021615
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N,0.0162197,-0.4440402,0.0722185,-0.0511148,-0.0373912,-0.0395328,0.0034075,0.0084802,0.0064935,0.019408,-0.048595,-0.004833,-0.0030848,0.0086702,-0.0096025,-0.0133915,-0.0007825,0.0089,0.0174408,0.0100362,0.008828,-0.027729,-0.0174702,-0.00244,-0.0145795
TUR_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045

Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537

AureliusDNA
03-15-2021, 01:02 PM
What is your tribe name? Your results are typical Kurdish.

Well, my maternal side are Zazaki speakers and my paternal side are Eastern Turks (pretty close admixture with Kurds and Zaza anyway) who were most likely mixed with Kurds and Zazas. It's the Shadlu tribe which is part of the Afshar confederation. However, the tribe is mixed when it comes to self identification of its members as Kurds, Turkics or Zaza which is fine for me. Everyone has the right to express his identity as he wishes to.


Can you run this model on ur coords?

Sure Brother.


Distance to: Aurelius_scaled
0.16938993 GEO_CHG
0.18196624 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.20328305 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.21117730 Levant_PPNB
0.21282390 TUR_Barcin_N
0.44338817 MAR_EN
0.46186027 WHG
0.58471058 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: Aurelius_scaled
Distance: 3.5852% / 0.03585165
32.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.0 TUR_Barcin_N
18.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.0 Levant_PPNB
11.0 GEO_CHG
0.6 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

What are your thoughts?

FeyliDNAproject
03-22-2021, 01:17 PM
Distance for an average created from 5 feyli samples:

43965

Azbuzz
04-10-2021, 06:06 PM
Parsi_India,0.0793598,0.0657836,-0.0922269,0.0027634,-0.0526422,0.0143629,0.0035251,8.97e-05,-0.0108626,-0.0073806,-0.001678,-0.0031638,0.0060124,-0.0010245,0.0039283,0.0096791,-0.0028828,0.0025479,0.0030098,-0.0079831,-0.0005475,-0.0034897,-0.0006024,-0.0025506,0.0029938
Parsi_Pakistan,0.0806659,0.0675989,-0.0894431,0.0025138,-0.0527991,0.0133626,0.0017778,0.0001404,-0.0112576,-0.0088979,-0.0006072,-0.0026846,0.0063213,-0.0018788,0.0045613,0.0089297,-0.0044275,0.0016801,0.0024373,-0.008515,0,-0.0043332,-0.0015807,-0.0021585,0.0018795

Parsi Zoroastrian cordinates from Vahaduo

zafomafo
04-21-2021, 08:55 PM
Target: ZaferGuven_scaled
Distance: 1.5553% / 0.01555294
40.2 TKM_IA
38.2 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
19.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
2.2 MNG_Khovsgol_BA

ZaferGuven_scaled,0.097888,0.109677,-0.049026,-0.031654,-0.036007,-0.006136,0.003525,-0.002769,-0.026793,-0.016583,-0.005521,0.001948,0.003717,-0.000138,0.007465,0.009016,-0.005346,0.006968,0.008799,-0.008629,-0.000374,0.001237,0.000493,0.003012,0.003952
Kurd from central anatolia

StarDS9
04-29-2021, 12:54 PM
Target: ZaferGuven_scaled
Distance: 1.5553% / 0.01555294
40.2 TKM_IA
38.2 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
19.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
2.2 MNG_Khovsgol_BA

ZaferGuven_scaled,0.097888,0.109677,-0.049026,-0.031654,-0.036007,-0.006136,0.003525,-0.002769,-0.026793,-0.016583,-0.005521,0.001948,0.003717,-0.000138,0.007465,0.009016,-0.005346,0.006968,0.008799,-0.008629,-0.000374,0.001237,0.000493,0.003012,0.003952
Kurd from central anatolia


Thanks for the results. Which city are you from?

You seem to have high Steppe like my father has.

Cynic
04-29-2021, 05:04 PM
Are there genetic differences between Lurs and Persians who inhabit the same areas? It seems like most of the genetic variation between west Iranic speaking populations is geography based as opposed to ethnicity based. In addition I heard that most Lurs essentially see themselves as nomadic Persians(someone correct me if I’m wrong).

Azbuzz
04-29-2021, 05:49 PM
Are there genetic differences between Lurs and Persians who inhabit the same areas? It seems like most of the genetic variation between west Iranic speaking populations is geography based as opposed to ethnicity based. In addition I heard that most Lurs essentially see themselves as nomadic Persians(someone correct me if Iím wrong).

This is far too simplistic. The Baloch and Zoroastrians speak a West Iranic language and they are genetically seperate from the neighbours (the Sistanis and Kermani Muslims).