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View Full Version : Ev13 panel questions. (How to get out of a paragroup and get a more recent TMRCA)



digital_noise
08-20-2020, 10:25 PM
At both FTDNA (Big-Y 700) and Yfull, I am E-By14160*. The way I understand this, is this is a paragroup. I am looking to y test either my son or a second cousin with the goal of getting out of the paragroup and getting more clarity as to a more recent placement on the Yvtree. At this point, since I am in a paragroup, is it even worth testing either of those people? The e-v13 panel is $88 which is much cheaper than y700 at FTDNA. However the only subclade under BY14160 in the panel is BY14155, which I am negative for.

I guess what I am asking is if I am in a paragroup, how would I get out of that paragroup and move our position more recent? Im not even sure if Im asking the correct questions or asking correctly

MacUalraig
08-21-2020, 12:56 PM
Just to recap then, a static test can only test you against the known tree and if you are near the bottom (leaf) then it can't reveal much more if at all. The extent to which YSEQ panels track the latest tree(s) vary but the YFull tree doesn't show much more detail. Sometimes the panel lags behind latest research and they will take suggestions/requests to extend or update it.

If you are fairly confident there isn't much more testable structure then you need to discover it yourself by sequencing a male in that branch which you can do with various companies including YSEQ, Full Genomes, Dante, Nebula or ftdna. It costs a fair bit more than the panel so make sure you are 100% certain the candidate is actually in your branch.

Usually the tree builders require two samples to call a branch public, some will ask for two sequencing samples and some are persuadable to use a static test (eg YSEQ WishASNP/custom test at USD18 a shot) for the second sample. That's what most people would consider extending down in an officially recognised sense. If you are happy with private research sequence once then do a static test for the other.

Riverman
08-21-2020, 01:13 PM
The main problem of yours is that there are no closer, but preferably not too close (like father/son) matches tested yet. A problem many yDNA testers share, including myself. Unfortunately some potential candidates which did autosomal tests passed away before I could contact them.

digital_noise
08-21-2020, 09:31 PM
Just to recap then, a static test can only test you against the known tree and if you are near the bottom (leaf) then it can't reveal much more if at all. The extent to which YSEQ panels track the latest tree(s) vary but the YFull tree doesn't show much more detail. Sometimes the panel lags behind latest research and they will take suggestions/requests to extend or update it.

If you are fairly confident there isn't much more testable structure then you need to discover it yourself by sequencing a male in that branch which you can do with various companies including YSEQ, Full Genomes, Dante, Nebula or ftdna. It costs a fair bit more than the panel so make sure you are 100% certain the candidate is actually in your branch.

Usually the tree builders require two samples to call a branch public, some will ask for two sequencing samples and some are persuadable to use a static test (eg YSEQ WishASNP/custom test at USD18 a shot) for the second sample. That's what most people would consider extending down in an officially recognised sense. If you are happy with private research sequence once then do a static test for the other.
So since I am at the bottom of the v13 panel snp’s I’m essentially stuck doing a Big y or equivalent in order to glean any movement?

MacUalraig
08-22-2020, 02:52 PM
So since I am at the bottom of the v13 panel snp’s I’m essentially stuck doing a Big y or equivalent in order to glean any movement?

Yes, you've got to build a bit more road yourself to move down. Remember to budget the whole process as one NGS test won't produce a public branch with a TMRCA estimate.

digital_noise
08-22-2020, 03:46 PM
Yes, you've got to build a bit more road yourself to move down. Remember to budget the whole process as one NGS test won't produce a public branch with a TMRCA estimate.


Sorry, let me clarify. I already did a Big Y but I’d have to have someone else do it also?

Riverman
08-22-2020, 04:00 PM
Sorry, let me clarify. I already did a Big Y but Id have to have someone else do it also?

Or a similarly "complete" test, because with the prepared panels, you only get the known clades, but you are asking for the detection and classification of a new clade, your own one. I'd say however, that this is not that meaningful, because you will only sit on the same isolated branch with your son or father, or cousin. The most you can hope for is a name for it, if at all, because you are too close. Not that much would be won from this. It would be better to have more distant, yet close enough matches in the data base. But it seems that we both simply need to wait for those to test, eventually. Hopefully in our lifetime :)

MacUalraig
08-22-2020, 08:02 PM
Sorry, let me clarify. I already did a Big Y but I’d have to have someone else do it also?

Sorry I overlooked that bit. You need at least two in total. Some people struggle to find a good candidate and just test a close family member just so they can get themselves on the public trees. You could try waiting but that might take years. For example I actively hunted down several people via my one-name study to build out my branch; it took something like six years for a random passerby to join us and that's how long I'd have waited if that was my sole strategy.