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capsian
08-31-2020, 04:12 PM
Viminacium - 28 (labeled Serbia_Roman):

E x 13 (L618 x 6; L618>V13 x 3; Z830 x 1; Z830>M123 x 1; Z1902 x 1; M96 x 1)

G x 5 (PF3148 x 1; PF3148>L91 x 1; P303 x 1; L497 x 1; L497>Z1815 x 1)

R1b x 3 (Z2103 x 1; U106 x 1; U152>L2>Z367 x 1)

R1a x 2 (Z2124>Z2122 x 1; Z2124>Z2123 x 1)

J x 2 (M304 x 1; L24 x 1)

T x 1 (M184)

I1 x 1 (M253)

I2 x 1 (L596)


Timacum Minus, Slog necropolis - 10 (labeled Serbia_Roman):

E x 3 (M35 x 1; L618 x 1; L618>V13 x 1)

J x 3 (M304 x 1; M410 x 1; M241 x 1)

R1b x 2 (Z2103 x 1; Z2103>CTS1450 x 1)

G x 1 (CTS342>FGC12126)

I1 x 1 (Z58>CTS8647)


Timacum Minus, Kuline necropolis - 5 (labeled Serbia_Early_Middle_Age):

I2 x 2 (M423 x 2)

E x 1 (L618)

J x 1 (M304)

R1b x 1 (P312>DF99)


Lepenski Vir - 2:

E x 1 (M35) - Serbia_Roman

J x 1 (M102) - Serbia_Medieval


Mediana - 2 (labeled Serbia_Gepid):

G x 1 (P287)

I1 x 1 (Z58>CTS8647)


Gomolava - 1 (labeled Serbia_Medieval):

I2 x 1 (M423>L621>CTS4002)
hello Pribislav
and what about remains from albania is also have lot Y DNA E-V13
you have any informatoin about this and thank

ADW_1981
08-31-2020, 04:23 PM
Nice. Proud to be Bulgarian!

Yeah, I'll most likely take a Y test in the future. Didn't know that the ancient ancestor's contribution disappears in a few generations. Still, the Y haplogroup is an interesting information about the fatherline's beginnings. The thing with my father's town history is that there was a Roman settlement, but also according to the Wiki page, there were migrations of Celts and Illyrians(who as far as I know also have some Celtic admixture). Guess that for now I'll just make a very raw assumption that my fatherline's beginning was Roman, since I'm kind of a Roman fanboy myself :biggrin1:

Thank you everyone for the help! :)

I know there are some U152+ results in Bulgaria as well as some Sephardic Jews under DF27. When you get downstream to P312+ it tends to be a west to east phenomenon, as this SNP was probably born somewhere in West-Central Europe. Your assertions about Roman or Celtic seem to be plausible explanations as well, but ancient enough to not be reflected in your autosomal DNA.

Pribislav
08-31-2020, 06:06 PM
hello Pribislav
and what about remains from albania is also have lot Y DNA E-V13
you have any informatoin about this and thank

I don't have any info about aDNA samples from Albania. But there are several upcoming papers which will include samples from Balkan countries, so I hope we'll finally get some from Albania too.

capsian
08-31-2020, 09:52 PM
I don't have any info about aDNA samples from Albania. But there are several upcoming papers which will include samples from Balkan countries, so I hope we'll finally get some from Albania too.

thanks you about infromatoin

J Man
09-01-2020, 12:39 AM
I don't have any info about aDNA samples from Albania. But there are several upcoming papers which will include samples from Balkan countries, so I hope we'll finally get some from Albania too.

I'm hoping to see some ancient samples from Montenegro as well.

eastara
09-01-2020, 05:14 AM
I know there are some U152+ results in Bulgaria as well as some Sephardic Jews under DF27. When you get downstream to P312+ it tends to be a west to east phenomenon, as this SNP was probably born somewhere in West-Central Europe. Your assertions about Roman or Celtic seem to be plausible explanations as well, but ancient enough to not be reflected in your autosomal DNA.

There are already 2 DF27, 2 L21, L2, Z36 and Z56 branches found among ethnic Bulgarians proven be Big Y and other SNP tests. However Living DNA tests for those branches and has found Taratorchec negative. Of course he may have some no calls and not be a real P312* after deeper testing.

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09-01-2020, 07:29 AM
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Hawk
09-02-2020, 07:45 PM
This article is written in German: https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/jahrb-rgzm/article/view/20311

From few paragraphs that i translated in google translate it says that the origin of Naue II sword is in Central Europe-Carpathian, Pannonia, North Italy triangle.

Interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOwIQbPZNTM

ADW_1981
09-02-2020, 07:50 PM
There are already 2 DF27, 2 L21, L2, Z36 and Z56 branches found among ethnic Bulgarians proven be Big Y and other SNP tests. However Living DNA tests for those branches and has found Taratorchec negative. Of course he may have some no calls and not be a real P312* after deeper testing.

I'm not 100% sure, but are you sure DF27+ gets a yield at LivingDNA?

Riverman
09-02-2020, 09:04 PM
Interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOwIQbPZNTM

The video is interesting, but the title is kind of silly. Comparing the Naue swords with nuclear weapons of mass destruction just makes no sense. Better use something like improved rifles, like breechloaders or if you want to exaggerate automatic rifles. That's a proportional comparison, since its no WMD and it just gives you the edge in many situations, most things equal, but its no "super weapon" which makes you invincible.

The article says North-Eastern Italy or the Central-European to Carpathian region. So pretty much the candidate zone I envision for the area in which E-V13 grew in numbers and expanded from. The article also states, that in this region the tradition of the metal work reaches back into the Middle Bronze Age, which means we have to search for a candidate population between the middle to late Bronze Age in the CEU-Carpathian sphere. Actually they state that they say its possible to isolate the source region even more to the NE-Italian and Pannonian sphere, because of the directly preceding group of swords with Sprockhoff Ia (or alternative terms):

Anhand des Verbreitungsgebietes der den Naue II-Schwertern zeitlich und typogenetisch unmittelbar vorangehenden Schwertgruppe Sprockhoff Ia (bzw. der Typen Nitzing, Traun und annenheim nach P. Schauer, des typs Sacile nach V. bianco Peroni und des typs a 1 nach t. Kemenczei) lδsst sich das Entstehungsgebiet der Naue II-Form im Grunde noch nδher auf den nordostitalisch-pannonischen Raum eingrenzen

On the other hand there were also influences going in the opposite direction with the sword type "Stδtzling", from the Mycenaean-Minoan region to the relative North West, p. 111:

eine entscheidende Konsequenz aus den vorangegangenen typogenetischen aussagen ergibt sich fόr die beurteilung der Stδtzling-Schwerter in italien und im mitteleuropδisch-karpatenlδndischen Raum. Denn das dortige Erscheinen des Schwerttyps muss letztlich auf Einflόsse aus dem spδtmykenischen Griechenland zurόckgefόhrt werden. im Gegensatz zum auftreten der originδr pannonisch-nordostitalischen Griffzun-genschwerter vom Typ Reutlingen in der Δgδis wδhrend des 13. Jahrhunderts v. Chr. ist nun mit dem Typ Stδtzling im 12. Jahrhundert v. Chr. eine Einflussnahme in umgekehrter Richtung zu verzeichnen.

These seem to have been produced regionally though, p. 112:

Das rhombische bzw. rhomboide Klingenprofil spricht demnach fόr eine lokale Herstellung der betreffenden Stδtzling-Schwerter im oberadriatischen und karpatenlδndischen Raum. Fόr einzelne italische exemplare liegen darόber hinaus archδometallurgische analysen zur chemischen und isotopischen Zusammensetzung der bronze bzw. des verarbeiteten Kupfers vor. nach den publizierten in-formationen belegen auch diese Untersuchungen eine lokale Herstellung der Schwerter, vermutlich unter Verwendung sόdalpiner Kupferressourcen

eastara
11-01-2020, 01:10 AM
The Bulgarian project with the Harvard lab(called DARE) already has a web site:
https://proizhod.nauka.bg/

Some of the preliminary results showed on the video are published and we can clearly see where from. The Ezero Early Bronze culture from SouthEastern Bulgaria are R1b1a1b1a1, not sure about what classification:

https://proizhod.nauka.bg/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/res2.png

Kelmendasi
11-01-2020, 01:25 AM
The Bulgarian project with the Harvard lab(called DARE) already has a web site:
https://proizhod.nauka.bg/

Some of the preliminary results showed on the video are published and we can clearly see where from. The Ezero Early Bronze culture from SouthEastern Bulgaria are R1b1a1b1a1, not sure about what classification:

https://proizhod.nauka.bg/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/res2.png
By the looks of it they're using the newer ISOGG nomenclatures. Judging by this, sample I19458 is R1b-L52 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L52/). Interestingly an Albanian from Kosovo is classified as R-L52*. Sample I19457 which is classified as R1b1a1b1b should be R-Z2103 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2103/).

J Man
11-01-2020, 02:56 AM
The Bulgarian project with the Harvard lab(called DARE) already has a web site:
https://proizhod.nauka.bg/

Some of the preliminary results showed on the video are published and we can clearly see where from. The Ezero Early Bronze culture from SouthEastern Bulgaria are R1b1a1b1a1, not sure about what classification:

https://proizhod.nauka.bg/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/res2.png

Neat to see an Early Bronze Age J2a sample show up as well!

eastara
11-01-2020, 06:25 AM
If we presume they use the latest ISOGG, then there are surprises.
I19452 Kazanlak,Tell Kran I2a1a2b -L621, as far as I remember this is the first going to I2a Dinaric found on the Balkans
I19458 Tell Ezero R1b1a1b1a1 - L52, in the new video Stamov again repeats Reich's theory that Ezero culture is the origin of the Trojans and possibly Hitites, who came to Anatolia from the Balkans.
I20182 Kapitan Andreevo Q1b(xQ1b1) - L56 This is towards Middle Bronze age, but first time haplogroup Q from probably Scandinavian lines found on the Balkans

Hawk
11-01-2020, 08:51 AM
We already said before but very interesting how E-V13 is a late newcomer, surprising. It looks less and less that we will find in Greece or Albania prior Late Bronze Age as well.

I hypothetize the Alps in Central Europe as the most robust place of origin, descended from Cardial Farmers coming from Spain. Stephen Shennan thinks the Michelsbergers (i doubt they are E-M78 and negative downclade E-L618 and E-V13) came from south-west to Paris Basin and then some spread to the North and West (I2a maybe? ) and some others to more East (E-V13 maybe?!) Who knows.

Then during Middle Bronze Age they could have followed the Danube trajectory to spread into the Balkans.

https://i.imgur.com/dCMQ4K4.jpg

J Man
11-01-2020, 11:42 AM
If we presume they use the latest ISOGG, then there are surprises.
I19452 Kazanlak,Tell Kran I2a1a2b -L621, as far as I remember this is the first going to I2a Dinaric found on the Balkans
I19458 Tell Ezero R1b1a1b1a1 - L52, in the new video Stamov again repeats Reich's theory that Ezero culture is the origin of the Trojans and possibly Hitites, who came to Anatolia from the Balkans.
I20182 Kapitan Andreevo Q1b(xQ1b1) - L56 This is towards Middle Bronze age, but first time haplogroup Q from probably Scandinavian lines found on the Balkans

Do you know which archaeological culture the EBA Kazanlak, Tell Kran samples come from?

eastara
11-01-2020, 01:17 PM
Do you know which archaeological culture the EBA Kazanlak, Tell Kran samples come from?

Tell Kran is from the Early Bronze, but from its latest sub period, while Ezero is the earliest. Bronze age in Bulgaria is different than Western Europe, Early Bronze is generally 3300 до 2000/1900 BC. It is divided into 3 periods by the place of excavation - Ezero A, Mihalich and Sveti Kirilovo.
Kran is also in the Thracian Valley of the Kings and there are several Thracian tombs nearby.
This is what I found about Tell Kran from the exposition in the Kazanlak museum:
https://www.muzei-kazanlak.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=61&lang=en

J Man
11-01-2020, 02:47 PM
Tell Kran is from the Early Bronze, but from its latest sub period, while Ezero is the earliest. Bronze age in Bulgaria is different than Western Europe, Early Bronze is generally 3300 до 2000/1900 BC. It is divided into 3 periods by the place of excavation - Ezero A, Mihalich and Sveti Kirilovo.
Kran is also in the Thracian Valley of the Kings and there are several Thracian tombs nearby.
This is what I found about Tell Kran from the exposition in the Kazanlak museum:
https://www.muzei-kazanlak.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=61&lang=en

Very interesting and useful information thank you.

Riverman
11-02-2020, 07:48 PM
We already said before but very interesting how E-V13 is a late newcomer, surprising. It looks less and less that we will find in Greece or Albania prior Late Bronze Age as well.

I hypothetize the Alps in Central Europe as the most robust place of origin, descended from Cardial Farmers coming from Spain. Stephen Shennan thinks the Michelsbergers (i doubt they are E-M78 and negative downclade E-L618 and E-V13) came from south-west to Paris Basin and then some spread to the North and West (I2a maybe? ) and some others to more East (E-V13 maybe?!) Who knows.

Then during Middle Bronze Age they could have followed the Danube trajectory to spread into the Balkans.

There are two likely possibilities:
- North Carpathian and Urnfield-related spread (especially Gava horizon)
- East Alpine and along the Danube like you suggest

The problem with the later is, that in the Balkans it was later than Gava and had a more Western centre, it was a layer on top of the early Urnfield-Gava wave in my opinion. This causes a problem, because the frequency seems to be in the Iron Age still from South East to North West. That's why I think a North Carpathian route is the best to correlate with the later spread of E-V13. It would have penetrated the Thracian core zone the most, Illyrians second, Celts and Greeks third. This would be perfect to align with a LBA-EIA spread and the later frequencies. Especailly since the South Eastern Urnfield and Gava-related groups were, like mentioned before, overtaken by East Alpine groups later further West, which would have somewhat reduced the frequencies and at the same time allowed the spread to the North and West (Celts, Italics, Germanics) as a minority element, especially iron working specialists.

The spread of early Iron technology is in my opinion the best correlate for the presence of large scale E-V13 related LBA-EIA colonisation. Just follow the settlements down from Teleac. With a more Western origin, while still possible, I just have troubles bringing this together with the spread in the core Thracian zone. I don't see that working out too well.

What's your connection between East Alpine -> Thracian core zone? I mean looking at all the results we have so far, we're talking about near replacement level migrations, and these must have taken place before the Iron Age stabilised, leading directly to homogeneous, stable and historically proven ethnic entities. There is only a fairly small time window actually and it works the best with the South Eastern Urnfield groups.

Hawk
11-02-2020, 07:53 PM
There are two likely possibilities:
- North Carpathian and Urnfield-related spread (especially Gava horizon)
- East Alpine and along the Danube like you suggest

The problem with the later is, that in the Balkans it was later than Gava and had a more Western centre, it was a layer on top of the early Urnfield-Gava wave in my opinion. This causes a problem, because the frequency seems to be in the Iron Age still from South East to North West. That's why I think a North Carpathian route is the best to correlate with the later spread of E-V13. It would have penetrated the Thracian core zone the most, Illyrians second, Celts and Greeks third. This would be perfect to align with a LBA-EIA spread and the later frequencies. Especailly since the South Eastern Urnfield and Gava-related groups were, like mentioned before, overtaken by East Alpine groups later further West, which would have somewhat reduced the frequencies and at the same time allowed the spread to the North and West (Celts, Italics, Germanics) as a minority element, especially iron working specialists.

The spread of early Iron technology is in my opinion the best correlate for the presence of large scale E-V13 related LBA-EIA colonisation. Just follow the settlements down from Teleac. With a more Western origin, while still possible, I just have troubles bringing this together with the spread in the core Thracian zone. I don't see that working out too well.

What's your connection between East Alpine -> Thracian core zone? I mean looking at all the results we have so far, we're talking about near replacement level migrations, and these must have taken place before the Iron Age stabilised, leading directly to homogeneous, stable and historically proven ethnic entities. There is only a fairly small time window actually and it works the best with the South Eastern Urnfield groups.

The East Alpine origin is not from Middle or Late Bronze Age rather somewhere between Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. That's why we see the earliest split of E-V13 among some Germans and some Italians.

Or, they were not Thracian/Illyrian/Greek rather they spoke a different tongue non IE, yet during and after the turmoil of Late Bronze Age, in small bands they just integrated into the before-mentioned populations.

CopperAxe
11-02-2020, 07:59 PM
Have you guys seen thid video yet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzAL0ssXwgc

I unfortunately cannot speak Bulgarian, so I don't know what is being shared here.

Anything new?

Hawk
11-02-2020, 08:06 PM
Have you guys seen thid video yet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzAL0ssXwgc

I unfortunately cannot speak Bulgarian, so I don't know what is being shared here.

Anything new?

haha, i am not so good but he mentioned Y-DNA Q among Proto-Bulgarians and the relationship with Botai and Native Americans.

Lots of G2a and R1b, interesting.

Riverman
11-02-2020, 08:11 PM
The East Alpine origin is not from Middle or Late Bronze Age rather somewhere between Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. That's why we see the earliest split of E-V13 among some Germans and some Italians.

Or, they were not Thracian/Illyrian/Greek rather they spoke a different tongue non IE, yet during and after the turmoil of Late Bronze Age, in small bands they just integrated into the before-mentioned populations.

This doesn't fit into the "empty of V13" Pannonian and Bulgarian samples taken, that's the point. If it happened earlier, it should have been present.

Hawk
11-02-2020, 08:33 PM
This doesn't fit into the "empty of V13" Pannonian and Bulgarian samples taken, that's the point. If it happened earlier, it should have been present.

That part, i have no explanation. I am talking of relatively very small group during Copper Age and Early Bronze Age, some split-offs from East Alpine to North Carpathians where they became prominent (Z5017/Z5018)?!

Particularly interesting to me is Ligurians, they have like 17.5/18% of E1b1b, and i think most of it is E-V13 (Garibaldi is the most famous Ligurian who supposedly was E-V13). That's quite high. We don't know their subclades, if they are Late Bronze Age Hallstatt comers, like the La Tene sample or earlier migrants. Lots of question marks, and empty spaces, hence wide varieties of hypothesis.

Riverman
11-02-2020, 09:28 PM
That part, i have no explanation. I am talking of relatively very small group during Copper Age and Early Bronze Age, some split-offs from East Alpine to North Carpathians where they became prominent (Z5017/Z5018)?!

Particularly interesting to me is Ligurians, they have like 17.5/18% of E1b1b, and i think most of it is E-V13 (Garibaldi is the most famous Ligurian who supposedly was E-V13). That's quite high. We don't know their subclades, if they are Late Bronze Age Hallstatt comers, like the La Tene sample or earlier migrants. Lots of question marks, and empty spaces, hence wide varieties of hypothesis.

There is in my opinion after the latest results no explanation without Urnfield related spreads. Mind you, that doesn't mean that the Urnfield groups which spread it were high all high in V13 and those with a high frequency exclusively so. Not at all. But a lot of what we can see, by autosomal genetics, uniparentals, linguistically, archaeologically, I expect the pre- and post-Urnfield, pre- and post Iron Age transition comparison being very, very important. I think the Northern and Western V13 groups are those which stayed behind and were assimilated by their Northern neighbours, whereas the majority migrated Southward, forming Thracians and Illyrians. This split, like we saw it in many migration periods, including the Germanic and Slavic, explains the observed pattern the best. They lived together in a Southern Urnfield group and influenced their neighbours, then they split and took different paths. One major group migrated directly South, forming the Thracian core of the Iron Age and the modern centre of E-V13. By now I doubt that any major concentration of V13 was much South of the Carpathians before Urnfield.

J Man
11-02-2020, 09:48 PM
haha, i am not so good but he mentioned Y-DNA Q among Proto-Bulgarians and the relationship with Botai and Native Americans.

Lots of G2a and R1b, interesting.

Any other haplogroups?

eastara
11-02-2020, 11:20 PM
Stamov is mistakenly claiming, that the new arriving Anatolian farmers were G2a only. There are samples from that period in Bulgaria, which were T1 and H2, which are definitely not local European, we have also R1b-V88 and I2a1 found among the Balkan hunter gatherers as well.
However he claims that modern Bulgarians have very little from the old Thracians - according to him, Bulgarians have 10% and even Albanians have 30-40%. According to him, the Balkan type admixture is in fact taken from Pannonia, where the Slavs mixed with the locals during Hun and Avar times and then brought it back to the Balkans. There were never pure blood Slavs living in Bulgaria. One of the reasons is that the Thracians were already fully Romanised and if surviving the barbarian raids and the Justinian plague fled to the South in the Early Medieval times.

td120
11-03-2020, 12:44 AM
Made some notes :

-80 results ready (hip bones,teeth, inner ear material)

-All samples dated 7000 BC -13c.AD (+carbon dating; "appr. 200 Neolithic samples available")

-Proto-Bulgarians autosomally closest to Pontic Steppe populations.

-The military leader Q-sample is Paleo-Siberian, found among Ket people."Autosomally connected to Scythians and Alan-Sarmatians...with native Caucasus admix".Reburial in a Neolithic site actually, around Tarnovo.

-At least the ruling PB elite "has , in my opinion, connections with the Siberian populations".

-Thracians blond,blue-eyed, pale skinned.

-Proto-Bulgarians "late Sarmatic people with distinct Caucasus signal", "closest to Moldova Scythians" .

-Karanovo; Varna (Neolithic , 7000-4000 BC) - G2a (so far?)

-The ancestors of Trojans ;Hittites from middle Dnieper (Reich) - in the context of I2a Bronze age samples

-up to 10% Slavic signal among Cretans (Reich)

-No Neolithic or appreciable Thracian autos. (0-10%) component in contemporary Bulgarians.

-Models modern day Bulgarians as 40% Slav; 30% Late antiquity East Romans (Byzantines); rest-Scythian-like DNA .

-Bulgarian ethnogenesis ends 11c. AD . No detectable changes after that.

Riverman
11-03-2020, 01:45 AM
Stamov is mistakenly claiming, that the new arriving Anatolian farmers were G2a only. There are samples from that period in Bulgaria, which were T1 and H2, which are definitely not local European, we have also R1b-V88 and I2a1 found among the Balkan hunter gatherers as well.
However he claims that modern Bulgarians have very little from the old Thracians - according to him, Bulgarians have 10% and even Albanians have 30-40%. According to him, the Balkan type admixture is in fact taken from Pannonia, where the Slavs mixed with the locals during Hun and Avar times and then brought it back to the Balkans. There were never pure blood Slavs living in Bulgaria. One of the reasons is that the Thracians were already fully Romanised and if surviving the barbarian raids and the Justinian plague fled to the South in the Early Medieval times.

And interesting question in this equation is the age old debate of how the regional Vlachs came up, because they might form a large portion of the pre-Slavic ancestry in Bulgarians and could be, in theory, associated with different antique ethnolinguistic groups. Question is for example, how different provincial Romans from Pannonia and Vlach-like people from there were compared to more South Eastern Vlach-Romance people.

J Man
11-03-2020, 01:47 AM
Made some notes :

-80 results ready (hip bones,teeth, inner ear material)

-All samples dated 7000 BC -13c.AD (+carbon dating; "appr. 200 Neolithic samples available")

-Proto-Bulgarians autosomally closest to Pontic Steppe populations.

-The military leader Q-sample is Paleo-Siberian, found among Ket people."Autosomally connected to Scythians and Alan-Sarmatians...with native Caucasus admix".Reburial in a Neolithic site actually, around Tarnovo.

-At least the ruling PB elite "has , in my opinion, connections with the Siberian populations".

-Thracians blond,blue-eyed, pale skinned.

-Proto-Bulgarians "late Sarmatic people with distinct Caucasus signal", "closest to Moldova Scythians" .

-Karanovo; Varna (Neolithic , 7000-4000 BC) - G2a (so far?)

-The ancestors of Trojans ;Hittites from middle Dnieper (Reich) - in the context of I2a Bronze age samples

-up to 10% Slavic signal among Cretans (Reich)

-No Neolithic or appreciable Thracian autos. (0-10%) component in contemporary Bulgarians.

-Models modern day Bulgarians as 40% Slav; 30% Late antiquity East Romans (Byzantines); rest-Scythian-like DNA .

-Bulgarian ethnogenesis ends 11c. AD . No detectable changes after that.

Any mention of when this study will be published?

td120
11-03-2020, 02:07 AM
Nope.

xripkan
11-03-2020, 02:21 AM
Made some notes :

-80 results ready (hip bones,teeth, inner ear material)

-All samples dated 7000 BC -13c.AD (+carbon dating; "appr. 200 Neolithic samples available")

-Proto-Bulgarians autosomally closest to Pontic Steppe populations.

-The military leader Q-sample is Paleo-Siberian, found among Ket people."Autosomally connected to Scythians and Alan-Sarmatians...with native Caucasus admix".Reburial in a Neolithic site actually, around Tarnovo.

-At least the ruling PB elite "has , in my opinion, connections with the Siberian populations".

-Thracians blond,blue-eyed, pale skinned.

-Proto-Bulgarians "late Sarmatic people with distinct Caucasus signal", "closest to Moldova Scythians" .

-Karanovo; Varna (Neolithic , 7000-4000 BC) - G2a (so far?)

-The ancestors of Trojans ;Hittites from middle Dnieper (Reich) - in the context of I2a Bronze age samples

-up to 10% Slavic signal among Cretans (Reich)

-No Neolithic or appreciable Thracian autos. (0-10%) component in contemporary Bulgarians.

-Models modern day Bulgarians as 40% Slav; 30% Late antiquity East Romans (Byzantines); rest-Scythian-like DNA .

-Bulgarian ethnogenesis ends 11c. AD . No detectable changes after that.

If Proto-Bulgarians have Sarmatian origin many of them should have R-Z93 yDNA.
I am also wondering what is that "30% Late antiquity East Romans (Byzantines)" in modern Bulgarians if not Thracian?

ADW_1981
11-03-2020, 02:32 AM
Have you guys seen thid video yet?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzAL0ssXwgc

I unfortunately cannot speak Bulgarian, so I don't know what is being shared here.

Anything new?

Other than making out the odd word here and there - no. Some other R1b results which weren't visible from the earlier videos mixed in with the G2a. I wonder if this is a sorting issue, or if they are actually from an earlier period? One thing to note is that the R1b Ezero results are labeled as outliers "north". From the basic wiki page, Ezero had continuity with the earlier copper period as one would expect with the presence of newcomers from the PC steppes. I'd anticipate these newcomers are the R-M269+ men based on the fact they are labeled outliers and are doubtfully present in any Balkan Neolithic culture.

ADW_1981
11-03-2020, 02:47 AM
Made some notes :

-80 results ready (hip bones,teeth, inner ear material)

-All samples dated 7000 BC -13c.AD (+carbon dating; "appr. 200 Neolithic samples available")

-Proto-Bulgarians autosomally closest to Pontic Steppe populations.

-The military leader Q-sample is Paleo-Siberian, found among Ket people."Autosomally connected to Scythians and Alan-Sarmatians...with native Caucasus admix".Reburial in a Neolithic site actually, around Tarnovo.

-At least the ruling PB elite "has , in my opinion, connections with the Siberian populations".

-Thracians blond,blue-eyed, pale skinned.

-Proto-Bulgarians "late Sarmatic people with distinct Caucasus signal", "closest to Moldova Scythians" .

-Karanovo; Varna (Neolithic , 7000-4000 BC) - G2a (so far?)

-The ancestors of Trojans ;Hittites from middle Dnieper (Reich) - in the context of I2a Bronze age samples

-up to 10% Slavic signal among Cretans (Reich)

-No Neolithic or appreciable Thracian autos. (0-10%) component in contemporary Bulgarians.

-Models modern day Bulgarians as 40% Slav; 30% Late antiquity East Romans (Byzantines); rest-Scythian-like DNA .

-Bulgarian ethnogenesis ends 11c. AD . No detectable changes after that.

The I2-L701 but not the R1b samples? The distribution of the former seems half way between the R-L51 samples and R-Z2103 samples found in populations of GB and Ireland but also the Balkans and Turkey. I'm pretty sure this branch of I2 travelled with R1b-M269 together.

eastara
11-03-2020, 05:07 AM
Ezero culture people must be newcomers as there was a 1000 hiatus in Bulgaria and partially Greece between the Calcholithics and the Early Brinze. Furthermore, Tell Kran is dated 2000-1800BC, while some think there was another hiatus and population replacement around 2400BC. There we see resurgence of the old European haplogroups I2a1a and I2a1b. There is a sample from Ezero, Bul10, which autosomally resembles late Chalcolithics, but R1b-Z2103 and L52 reported now are not found in the South Balkans until that time. The reported R1 from Varna and some other places tuned out to be V88.
Stamov is eager to prove the modern Bulgarians descend largely from the old Bulgars though the Scythians/Sarmatians connection but he is using the samples from Glinnoe many people think are not Scythians at all, but Thracians/Dacians who moved North. Real Scythians after the Iron age have a noticeable East Asian admixture and are divided into different not very related groups.

CopperAxe
11-03-2020, 10:27 AM
haha, i am not so good but he mentioned Y-DNA Q among Proto-Bulgarians and the relationship with Botai and Native Americans.

Lots of G2a and R1b, interesting.



Made some notes :

-80 results ready (hip bones,teeth, inner ear material)

-All samples dated 7000 BC -13c.AD (+carbon dating; "appr. 200 Neolithic samples available")

-Proto-Bulgarians autosomally closest to Pontic Steppe populations.

-The military leader Q-sample is Paleo-Siberian, found among Ket people."Autosomally connected to Scythians and Alan-Sarmatians...with native Caucasus admix".Reburial in a Neolithic site actually, around Tarnovo.

-At least the ruling PB elite "has , in my opinion, connections with the Siberian populations".

-Thracians blond,blue-eyed, pale skinned.

-Proto-Bulgarians "late Sarmatic people with distinct Caucasus signal", "closest to Moldova Scythians" .

-Karanovo; Varna (Neolithic , 7000-4000 BC) - G2a (so far?)

-The ancestors of Trojans ;Hittites from middle Dnieper (Reich) - in the context of I2a Bronze age samples

-up to 10% Slavic signal among Cretans (Reich)

-No Neolithic or appreciable Thracian autos. (0-10%) component in contemporary Bulgarians.

-Models modern day Bulgarians as 40% Slav; 30% Late antiquity East Romans (Byzantines); rest-Scythian-like DNA .

-Bulgarian ethnogenesis ends 11c. AD . No detectable changes after that.

Thanks for the insights guys, much appreciated!

I'm kind of interested in that MBA Q1b sample, I wonder what the story of his y-dna lineage is.

Aspar
11-03-2020, 11:09 AM
Made some notes :

-80 results ready (hip bones,teeth, inner ear material)

-All samples dated 7000 BC -13c.AD (+carbon dating; "appr. 200 Neolithic samples available")

-Proto-Bulgarians autosomally closest to Pontic Steppe populations.

-The military leader Q-sample is Paleo-Siberian, found among Ket people."Autosomally connected to Scythians and Alan-Sarmatians...with native Caucasus admix".Reburial in a Neolithic site actually, around Tarnovo.

-At least the ruling PB elite "has , in my opinion, connections with the Siberian populations".

-Thracians blond,blue-eyed, pale skinned.

-Proto-Bulgarians "late Sarmatic people with distinct Caucasus signal", "closest to Moldova Scythians" .

-Karanovo; Varna (Neolithic , 7000-4000 BC) - G2a (so far?)

-The ancestors of Trojans ;Hittites from middle Dnieper (Reich) - in the context of I2a Bronze age samples

-up to 10% Slavic signal among Cretans (Reich)

-No Neolithic or appreciable Thracian autos. (0-10%) component in contemporary Bulgarians.

-Models modern day Bulgarians as 40% Slav; 30% Late antiquity East Romans (Byzantines); rest-Scythian-like DNA .

-Bulgarian ethnogenesis ends 11c. AD . No detectable changes after that.

Considering that this same guy Stamov had one 'crazy' elaboration and PCA demonstration how modern Bulgarians are two way mix of Caucasians(Proto-Bulgarians) and EEF(native Balkan population) although there were no preserved EEF for thousands of years when the Proto-Bulgarians arrived in the Balkans, I wouldn't trust him much unless this is a more thoroughout analysis by the Reich's team.

Then again, 40% Slavic is what I get with G25 models for the Bulgarians. However the 'Scythian' part can only take place if it's 'Southern European' like as it's the case with the samples from Moldova. How Scythian they are is a different question, but I highly doubt that when the Proto-Bulgarians arrived in the Balkans they were Scythian_Moldova like. If they really were then that would be amazing and spectacular at the same time. Let's see...

Hawk
11-03-2020, 12:11 PM
There is in my opinion after the latest results no explanation without Urnfield related spreads. Mind you, that doesn't mean that the Urnfield groups which spread it were high all high in V13 and those with a high frequency exclusively so. Not at all. But a lot of what we can see, by autosomal genetics, uniparentals, linguistically, archaeologically, I expect the pre- and post-Urnfield, pre- and post Iron Age transition comparison being very, very important. I think the Northern and Western V13 groups are those which stayed behind and were assimilated by their Northern neighbours, whereas the majority migrated Southward, forming Thracians and Illyrians. This split, like we saw it in many migration periods, including the Germanic and Slavic, explains the observed pattern the best. They lived together in a Southern Urnfield group and influenced their neighbours, then they split and took different paths. One major group migrated directly South, forming the Thracian core of the Iron Age and the modern centre of E-V13. By now I doubt that any major concentration of V13 was much South of the Carpathians before Urnfield.

All of this is strange honestly.

Within the Urnfield complex, if we divide into two groups then Western Urnfield complex would compromise of Celtic and Italic people and Eastern Urnfield complex would compromise of ancestors of Thracians, Illyrians?

But, we have a non IE group which were far more powerful than the aforementioned IE groups on its early stages, and yes they are Etruscans, who are typical Urnfield descended people. In Slovenia, in V century B.C we find Etruscan helmets and people there using North Etruscan alphabet in their inscriptions. I am talking about Negau type helmet. In the Alps, we have people related to Etruscans called Rhaetians who we should consider Northern Tyrrhenians.

We need more samples, from Albania and Greece since samples from there are scarce. Also Etruscans, and if we somehow can find Urnfield remains from earlier stages, because not all of them were practicing cremation would be good in order to create a big picture.

BTW, all good with you (in relation to yesterdays terrific event)?

Riverman
11-03-2020, 02:05 PM
All of this is strange honestly.

Within the Urnfield complex, if we divide into two groups then Western Urnfield complex would compromise of Celtic and Italic people and Eastern Urnfield complex would compromise of ancestors of Thracians, Illyrians?

I think so. This would create a language continuum from Celtic-Italic-Germanic-Illyrian-Thracian-Slavic.


But, we have a non IE group which were far more powerful than the aforementioned IE groups on its early stages, and yes they are Etruscans, who are typical Urnfield descended people. In Slovenia, in V century B.C we find Etruscan helmets and people there using North Etruscan alphabet in their inscriptions. I am talking about Negau type helmet. In the Alps, we have people related to Etruscans called Rhaetians who we should consider Northern Tyrrhenians.

I think they were converted in Pannonia or close by and that not all of South Eastern Europe was IE at this point, before the Urnfield expansion. Etruscans would therefore fall into the category of "converted" people, similar to Greeks not strongly affected by the Dorian (Thraco-Illyrian influenced) migrations.


We need more samples, from Albania and Greece since samples from there are scarce. Also Etruscans, and if we somehow can find Urnfield remains from earlier stages, because not all of them were practicing cremation would be good in order to create a big picture.

Sure, that's always a good start and necessary. Surprises are always possible.

xripkan
11-03-2020, 04:01 PM
Considering that this same guy Stamov had one 'crazy' elaboration and PCA demonstration how modern Bulgarians are two way mix of Caucasians(Proto-Bulgarians) and EEF(native Balkan population) although there were no preserved EEF for thousands of years when the Proto-Bulgarians arrived in the Balkans, I wouldn't trust him much unless this is a more thoroughout analysis by the Reich's team.

Then again, 40% Slavic is what I get with G25 models for the Bulgarians. However the 'Scythian' part can only take place if it's 'Southern European' like as it's the case with the samples from Moldova. How Scythian they are is a different question, but I highly doubt that when the Proto-Bulgarians arrived in the Balkans they were Scythian_Moldova like. If they really were then that would be amazing and spectacular at the same time. Let's see...

It seems that Bulgarians are modelled not just as Thracian+Slavic but they need an extra Irano-Caucasian reference.


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 2.2213% / 0.02221322
50.2 BGR_IA
33.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
16.6 CZE_Early_Slav


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.3949% / 0.01394875
42.6 BGR_IA
42.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
14.8 RUS_Alan_MA

Alan_MA reference is a mix of Sarmatians and native Caucasians. If instead of Alan I use Western Scythians and pure Caucasians the distance is even smaller


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2370% / 0.01236978
42.6 BGR_IA
35.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
14.8 Scythian_UKR
7.6 Georgian_Imer

It seems quite possible that Proto-Bulgars were similar to Medieval Alans.
We can also use Moldova Scythians but not the Southern European-like but scy301 and 311 references.
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2861% / 0.01286129
41.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
39.4 BGR_IA
10.4 Scythian_MDA
8.8 Georgian_Imer
I have used only Scythian MDA 301 and 311.

Using scy011 which plots close to Iranic Steppe peoples
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.3294% / 0.01329392
42.4 BGR_IA
41.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
8.2 Scythian_UKR:scy011
8.0 Georgian_Imer

Aspar
11-03-2020, 06:44 PM
It seems that Bulgarians are modelled not just as Thracian+Slavic but they need an extra Irano-Caucasian reference.


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 2.2213% / 0.02221322
50.2 BGR_IA
33.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
16.6 CZE_Early_Slav


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.3949% / 0.01394875
42.6 BGR_IA
42.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
14.8 RUS_Alan_MA

Alan_MA reference is a mix of Sarmatians and native Caucasians. If instead of Alan I use Western Scythians and pure Caucasians the distance is even smaller


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2370% / 0.01236978
42.6 BGR_IA
35.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
14.8 Scythian_UKR
7.6 Georgian_Imer

It seems quite possible that Proto-Bulgars were similar to Medieval Alans.
We can also use Moldova Scythians but not the Southern European-like but scy301 and 311 references.
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2861% / 0.01286129
41.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
39.4 BGR_IA
10.4 Scythian_MDA
8.8 Georgian_Imer
I have used only Scythian MDA 301 and 311.

Using scy011 which plots close to Iranic Steppe peoples
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.3294% / 0.01329392
42.4 BGR_IA
41.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
8.2 Scythian_UKR:scy011
8.0 Georgian_Imer

Wow, you've got a nice model there. That would make sense having in mind Old Great Bulgaria was concentrated just north of the Caucasus and the Pontic steppe. That's awesome by the way because it shows that the Bulgarians are not just Slavs and bearers of a name that hasn't got much with them but they have real connection with the people of Old Great Bulgaria.
Can you try the same models but with Roman Imperial included?

dosas
11-03-2020, 07:33 PM
Messing around, even better fit with Greek_Trabzon instead of Georgian_Imer.


40970

Jokli
11-03-2020, 07:40 PM
It seems that Bulgarians are modelled not just as Thracian+Slavic but they need an extra Irano-Caucasian reference.


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 2.2213% / 0.02221322
50.2 BGR_IA
33.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
16.6 CZE_Early_Slav


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.3949% / 0.01394875
42.6 BGR_IA
42.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
14.8 RUS_Alan_MA

Alan_MA reference is a mix of Sarmatians and native Caucasians. If instead of Alan I use Western Scythians and pure Caucasians the distance is even smaller


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2370% / 0.01236978
42.6 BGR_IA
35.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
14.8 Scythian_UKR
7.6 Georgian_Imer

It seems quite possible that Proto-Bulgars were similar to Medieval Alans.
We can also use Moldova Scythians but not the Southern European-like but scy301 and 311 references.
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2861% / 0.01286129
41.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
39.4 BGR_IA
10.4 Scythian_MDA
8.8 Georgian_Imer
I have used only Scythian MDA 301 and 311.

Using scy011 which plots close to Iranic Steppe peoples
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.3294% / 0.01329392
42.4 BGR_IA
41.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
8.2 Scythian_UKR:scy011
8.0 Georgian_Imer



Could that explain that additional eastern twist to Bulgarians? I've always some subset of Bulgarians Caucasian -like looking too.

Hawk
11-03-2020, 07:50 PM
Interesting part.


Between BC 15th–12th century, the Dacian-Getae culture was influenced by the Bronze Age Tumulus-Urnfield warriors who were on their way through the Balkans to Anatolia

Mountain, Harry (1998). The Celtic Encyclopedia. Universal. ISBN 978-1581128901.

CyrylBojarski
11-03-2020, 08:57 PM
It seems that Bulgarians are modelled not just as Thracian+Slavic but they need an extra Irano-Caucasian reference.


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 2.2213% / 0.02221322
50.2 BGR_IA
33.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
16.6 CZE_Early_Slav


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.3949% / 0.01394875
42.6 BGR_IA
42.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
14.8 RUS_Alan_MA

Alan_MA reference is a mix of Sarmatians and native Caucasians. If instead of Alan I use Western Scythians and pure Caucasians the distance is even smaller


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2370% / 0.01236978
42.6 BGR_IA
35.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
14.8 Scythian_UKR
7.6 Georgian_Imer

It seems quite possible that Proto-Bulgars were similar to Medieval Alans.
We can also use Moldova Scythians but not the Southern European-like but scy301 and 311 references.
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2861% / 0.01286129
41.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
39.4 BGR_IA
10.4 Scythian_MDA
8.8 Georgian_Imer
I have used only Scythian MDA 301 and 311.

Using scy011 which plots close to Iranic Steppe peoples
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.3294% / 0.01329392
42.4 BGR_IA
41.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
8.2 Scythian_UKR:scy011
8.0 Georgian_Imer

That is because Bulgars were not Turkic, but Iranic tribe mixed with Alans, most likely because of that

CyrylBojarski
11-03-2020, 09:00 PM
It seems that Bulgarians are modelled not just as Thracian+Slavic but they need an extra Irano-Caucasian reference.


According to the craniological materials of the Zlivkinsky burial ground belonging to the Saltovo-Mayatsk culture, the anthropological type of the Bulgars is established as “brachycranial Caucasoid type with weakened Mongoloid features, average dimensions of the face and skull” .

Caucasoid brachiocrania is characterized by:

for Asian and for part of European Sarmatians (excluding Alans, whose anthropological type was dolichocranial Caucasoid )
for the interfluve of the Amu Darya and the Syr Darya from the supposed homeland of the Proto-Bulgarians among the necropolises of the Iranian-speaking peoples
among the modern Pamir peoples

xripkan
11-03-2020, 09:40 PM
Wow, you've got a nice model there. That would make sense having in mind Old Great Bulgaria was concentrated just north of the Caucasus and the Pontic steppe. That's awesome by the way because it shows that the Bulgarians are not just Slavs and bearers of a name that hasn't got much with them but they have real connection with the people of Old Great Bulgaria.
Can you try the same models but with Roman Imperial included?

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2482% / 0.01248196
43.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
25.8 BGR_IA
23.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
7.6 Scythian_UKR:scy011

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2327% / 0.01232726
45.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
27.0 BGR_IA
19.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
8.0 RUS_Alan_MA

Rome imperial eats the Thracian and the Caucasian elements.

xripkan
11-04-2020, 12:17 AM
I made a model using just Avar Szolad and BGR IA

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 2.2724% / 0.02272392
52.4 BGR_IA
47.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad

I made a reference with exactly 52.4% BGR IA and 47.6% Avar Szolad. I named it Thracian-Slav
These are the closest populations for Thracian-Slav

0.01993818 Macedonian
0.02040195 Romanian
0.02088700 Italian_Northeast
0.02260415 Serbian
0.02272392 Bulgarian
0.02293999 Montenegrin
0.02890949 Italian_Veneto
0.03035555 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03176797 Gagauz
0.03417275 Moldovan
0.03591176 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03651171 Albanian
0.03664630 Bosnian
0.03674883 Swiss_Italian
0.03703217 French_Provence
0.03734827 Italian_Bergamo
0.03904505 Italian_Piedmont
0.03906611 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04136126 Swiss_French
0.04238503 French_Alsace
0.04247746 Italian_Liguria
0.04276696 Greek_Thessaly
0.04285293 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04327289 French_Auvergne
0.04351177 Croatian

I subtracted 80% Thracian-Slav from Bulgarian reference

The closest populations

0.07837091 ARM_LBA
0.07922852 RUS_Alan_MA
0.08028020 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
0.08265626 ARM_MBA
0.08327337 TUR_IA
0.08443909 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
0.08477210 ARM_Areni_C
0.08482287 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
0.08566588 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o
0.08851319 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
0.08954767 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
0.09006995 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
0.09047558 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
0.09093968 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
0.09374134 Scythian_MDA
0.09453393 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.09484359 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
0.09564467 HUN_Avar_Period
0.09638623 RUS_Maykop
0.09649750 Scythian_UKR
0.09659849 Yamnaya_BGR
0.09702725 IND_Roopkund_B
0.09727252 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
0.09739923 HUN_Prescythian_IA
0.09784075 DEU_MA_ACD

and modern

0.06705009 Turkish_Istanbul
0.07178474 Turkish_Rumeli
0.07254896 Turkish_Deliorman
0.07312320 Roma_Madrid
0.07498794 Roma_Porto
0.07555123 Kabardin
0.07587597 Kumyk
0.07626719 Roma_Bilbao
0.07773398 Roma_Barcelona
0.07831464 Cherkes
0.07842341 Roma_Granada
0.07921137 Turkish_Adana
0.07945745 Azeri_Dagestan
0.07983376 Roma_Balkans
0.07989973 Circassian
0.08026525 Turkish_Northwest
0.08036229 Karachay
0.08092535 Turkish_Central
0.08112781 Turkish_Balikesir
0.08263482 Balkar
0.08298067 Turkish_North
0.08354314 Abazin
0.08384533 Turkish_Kayseri
0.08465143 Turkish_Southwest
0.08518015 Adygei

If I subtract 85% this is what I get

0.08966963 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o
0.09082353 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
0.09238898 ARM_LBA
0.09473477 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
0.09542523 RUS_Alan_MA
0.09642162 ARM_MBA
0.09671868 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
0.09704644 TUR_IA
0.09736784 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
0.09874768 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
0.10486261 RUS_Maykop
0.10560179 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
0.10618091 ARM_Areni_C
0.10675263 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
0.10774849 KAZ_Turk_o
0.10897039 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
0.10917836 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
0.10946460 TKM_IA
0.11034396 Saka_Tian_Shan_o
0.11094016 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
0.11316474 PAK_Udegram_MA_Ghaznavid
0.11607173 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
0.11610880 RUS_Maykop_Late
0.11712425 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent
0.11728130 RUS_Saltovo-Mayaki_low_res

0.08441165 Roma_Balkans
0.08741504 Kabardin
0.08824075 Roma_Porto
0.08846732 Kumyk
0.08919253 Karachay
0.08929272 Azeri_Dagestan
0.08938476 Cherkes
0.09010662 Circassian
0.09049664 Roma_Granada
0.09128865 Roma_Bilbao
0.09140602 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.09167237 Balkar
0.09182314 Turkish_Istanbul
0.09230739 Abazin
0.09311667 Iranian_Fars
0.09449664 Turkish_Adana
0.09515905 Iranian_Seyyed
0.09517031 Roma_Madrid
0.09523831 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.09557587 Turkish_Northwest
0.09566342 Parsi_Pakistan
0.09606174 Turkish_Central
0.09619138 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.09631636 Ingushian
0.09646986 Adygei


For 75% subtraction
0.07346181 Scythian_MDA
0.07419058 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
0.07652350 HUN_Avar_Period
0.07687431 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.07718079 RUS_Alan_MA
0.07746326 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
0.07799211 ARM_LBA
0.07812069 DEU_MA_ACD
0.07816948 ARM_Areni_C
0.07883251 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
0.08091054 IND_Roopkund_B
0.08120716 Yamnaya_BGR
0.08203668 ARM_MBA
0.08238693 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
0.08259129 TUR_IA
0.08340466 Scythian_UKR
0.08498893 HUN_Prescythian_IA
0.08557093 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
0.08602403 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
0.08622943 ITA_Rome_MA
0.08782054 HUN_MA
0.08792319 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.08898316 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
0.08898776 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky
0.08959213 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity

0.05306103 Turkish_Deliorman
0.05596177 Turkish_Rumeli
0.05925582 Turkish_Istanbul
0.06412009 Roma_Barcelona
0.06445014 Gagauz
0.06706544 Roma_Madrid
0.06817176 Bulgarian
0.07465464 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.07538396 Romanian
0.07538916 Roma_Bilbao
0.07551325 Roma_Porto
0.07571750 Moldovan
0.07650794 Macedonian
0.07676317 Kumyk
0.07697373 Kabardin
0.07783534 Turkish_Adana
0.07808046 Albanian
0.07831509 Serbian
0.07841589 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.07876656 Turkish_Northwest
0.07883585 Turkish_Balikesir
0.07904118 Greek_Thessaly
0.07939514 Roma_Granada
0.07948930 Turkish_Central
0.07997697 Cherkes

If anyone is interested I can post the coordinates.

eastara
11-04-2020, 12:26 AM
Bulgarians have more Caucasian-like admixture than people in the Western Balkans, but it is not clear it all came from North East or in fact South East. Reason is that during Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman times there were huge resettlements of Anatolian people to the Balkans. For example, around 100000 Armenian Paulicians were forcefully resettles to Thrace in 9c. Thrace was a place for banishment for the Byzantines, Anatolia was much more developed and urbanised and nobody wanted to live on the Balkans, exposed all the time to "barbarian" raids.
Stamov himself mentioned that Bulgarians were modelled best not with the Iron age Thracian(Bulgarians had 10% only), but Slavs and Medieval Byzantine(don't know which sample was referring to).

vasil
11-04-2020, 12:39 AM
Bulgarians have more Caucasian-like admixture than people in the Western Balkans, but it is not clear it all came from North East or in fact South East. Reason is that during Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman times there were huge resettlements of Anatolian people to the Balkans. For example, around 100000 Armenian Paulicians were forcefully resettles to Thrace in 9c. Thrace was a place for banishment for the Byzantines, Anatolia was much more developed and urbanised and nobody wanted to live on the Balkans, exposed all the time to "barbarian" raids.
Stamov himself mentioned that Bulgarians were modelled best not with the Iron age Thracian(Bulgarians had 10% only), but Slavs and Medieval Byzantine(don't know which sample was referring to).

Not only that but also we can't assume late Thracians were the same as early ones they also could have and probably did have extra caucasus admixture from interactions with Greek settlers and Phrygians.

DgidguBidgu
11-04-2020, 12:49 AM
Bulgarians have more Caucasian-like admixture than people in the Western Balkans, but it is not clear it all came from North East or in fact South East. Reason is that during Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman times there were huge resettlements of Anatolian people to the Balkans. For example, around 100000 Armenian Paulicians were forcefully resettles to Thrace in 9c. Thrace was a place for banishment for the Byzantines, Anatolia was much more developed and urbanised and nobody wanted to live on the Balkans, exposed all the time to "barbarian" raids.
Stamov himself mentioned that Bulgarians were modelled best not with the Iron age Thracian(Bulgarians had 10% only), but Slavs and Medieval Byzantine(don't know which sample was referring to).

Sure and the Thracians, according to him, were blond with blue eyes, Scandinavians, and in that case I am a Snow White and Santa Claus in one!
It is enough to see, for example, the walls of the Kazanlak and Alexandrov tombs (https://bulgariatravel.org/aleksandrovska-grobnitsa-selo-aleksa/) and Mr. Stamov can be declared an escapee from psychiatry at least. The other possibility speaks even worse about his persona.

Granary
11-04-2020, 01:00 AM
There seem to be so many confounding factors at play, who knows how much of the iron age or post iron age ancestry from the Steppe was already present in the pre-Slavic population through Scythian-admixed Dacians or outright Scythians(like in Scythia minor) or even Sarmatian-admixed Goths(although I don't think there is much evidence of Gothic admixture either).

Stamov saying that Thracians are not a good proxy for pre-Slavic Bulgarian ancestry seem to imply indirectly that the kind of melting pot situation we saw in Italy could have happened in this region too to some extent which I believe makes sense.

Not only that but also we can't assume late Thracians were the same as early ones they also could have and probably did have extra caucasus admixture from interactions with Greek settlers and Phrygians.
I mean isn't the Roman conquest the most obvious explanation? We roughly know how Greeks could have looked and it seem that the pre-Roman migration flow was from the Balkans to Anatolia(Greeks, Phrygians, Bythinians and Galatians) rathe

Sorcelow
11-04-2020, 01:02 AM
All southern Balkan groups seem to benefit with the addition of BA Anatolians. We know this ancestry entered Greece during the late neolithic, and I think its likely that it continuously flowed into the Balkans ever since.

DgidguBidgu
11-04-2020, 01:31 AM
There seem to be so many confounding factors at play, who knows how much of the iron age or post iron age ancestry from the Steppe was already present in the pre-Slavic population through Scythian-admixed Dacians or outright Scythians(like in Scythia minor) or even Sarmatian-admixed Goths(although I don't think there is much evidence of Gothic admixture either).

Stamov saying that Thracians are not a good proxy for pre-Slavic Bulgarian ancestry seem to imply indirectly that the kind of melting pot situation we saw in Italy could have happened in this region too to some extent which I believe makes sense.

I mean isn't the Roman conquest the most obvious explanation? We roughly know how Greeks could have looked and it seem that the pre-Roman migration flow was from the Balkans to Anatolia(Greeks, Phrygians, Bythinians and Galatians) rathe


Are we looking for any excuses for incompetence here?
We are talking about accurate data and such nonsense does not pass.
Stamov himself admitted that he is not a geneticist but an anthropologist and interpreted a study that is still in its start.
There is no way to connect Scandinavians with Thrace and this is clear to everyone with a head on their shoulders.
The languages ​​spoken in the Balkans are a continuation of the old Balkan languages, proven by toponyms and personal names, documented very accurately by historical sources. For the material culture it is also clear who carries and is a direct successor of the Thracian culture, separately agricultural tools, pastoral attributes, there are parallels in each sphere.
If they think they can manipulate the data they are mistaken. All their lies will shine like a nudist **S.

Johane Derite
11-04-2020, 02:00 AM
The languages ​​spoken in the Balkans are a continuation of the old Balkan languages, proven by toponyms and personal names, documented very accurately by historical sources.

Ancient languages of Balkans are not slavic. This would be super self-evident if true.

Secondly, South Slavic languages don't have intense contact with Latin like Albanian, Romanian, Greek has, since the Romans invaded and conquered the Balkans in 167BC.

This is a conspiracy theory. This cannot keep on being repeated.

DgidguBidgu
11-04-2020, 02:14 AM
Ancient languages of Balkans are not slavic. This would be super self-evident if true.

Secondly, South Slavic languages don't have intense contact with Latin like Albanian, Romanian, Greek has, since the Romans invaded and conquered the Balkans in 167BC.

This is a conspiracy theory. This cannot keep on being repeated.

This statement of yours only proves you live in some strange negation of the facts. Toponyms here can be explained precisely through the Slavic languages. And this has been written about for a long time by experts and the parallels are fact. However, nothing similar can be said about Albanian, it is an outlier here despite the many borrowings from Bulgarian and Latin. It is known that the Thracians were many tribes, second in number after the Indians and the existence of the largest IE language group here is no coincidence. Just to add that the Romanians were part of it, and today's Hungary also fell into this area, unfortunately for you ...reality disproves you.

Johane Derite
11-04-2020, 02:34 AM
Toponyms here can be explained precisely through the Slavic languages. And this has been written about for a long time by experts and the parallels are fact.

No experts argue this. It shows how dishonest those posts are.

Truth doesn't matter, just make things up out of thin air.

DgidguBidgu
11-04-2020, 03:43 AM
No experts argue this. It shows how dishonest those posts are.

Truth doesn't matter, just make things up out of thin air.

Thats why today the books of your authors who wrote about the “Asian” Bulgarians now fit only for toilet paper. A typical phantasmagoria and lie like the fiction about Novichok today in the media.
You will recognize them by their deeds!

Hawk
11-04-2020, 10:26 AM
Daco-Thracian sword Falx was a terrifying weapon for Romans, only known case in history of Romans where their legionaries had to add extra protection against this formidable sword, one strong swing with the two-handed version and his arm would have been chopped off.

https://i.imgur.com/EHvuzFF.jpeg

CyrylBojarski
11-04-2020, 10:45 AM
Bulgarians have more Caucasian-like admixture than people in the Western Balkans, but it is not clear it all came from North East or in fact South East. Reason is that during Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman times there were huge resettlements of Anatolian people to the Balkans. For example, around 100000 Armenian Paulicians were forcefully resettles to Thrace in 9c. Thrace was a place for banishment for the Byzantines, Anatolia was much more developed and urbanised and nobody wanted to live on the Balkans, exposed all the time to "barbarian" raids.
Stamov himself mentioned that Bulgarians were modelled best not with the Iron age Thracian(Bulgarians had 10% only), but Slavs and Medieval Byzantine(don't know which sample was referring to).

Do Bulgarians have admixture from Ottoman Turks? A lot of them settled Bulgaria and mixed with local population

vasil
11-04-2020, 11:38 AM
Do Bulgarians have admixture from Ottoman Turks? A lot of them settled Bulgaria and mixed with local population

The Ottomans seem to be the only ones we dont have admixture from. On the other hand they seem to have admixture from us, Islam and Christianity were the dividing factors but because there were Bulgarians converting to Islam and they intermaried with the settlers they received genetic input from us.

CyrylBojarski
11-04-2020, 11:53 AM
The Ottomans seem to be the only ones we dont have admixture from. On the other hand they seem to have admixture from us, Islam and Christianity were the dividing factors but because there were Bulgarians converting to Islam and they intermaried with the settlers they received genetic input from us.

Interesting, do you know from whom Bulgarians have Western Asian-like genetic?

CyrylBojarski
11-04-2020, 12:09 PM
If we will trust Turkic theory of Bulgars, Bulgarians are 12% Turkic


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.4332% / 0.01433203
49.4 BGR_IA
38.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
11.8 KAZ_Turk_o
0.2 JPN_Jomon

Distance is almost the same as when we use Iranic samples ( Alan or Scythian )

eastara
11-04-2020, 12:38 PM
Interesting, do you know from whom Bulgarians have Western Asian-like genetic?

If we trust Eupeda, Western Asian like admixture is more then evidently coming to the Balkans form South East.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml#West_Asian

However I am not a big fan of the autosomal analysis, it depends a lot with whom you compare to and use as reference. It can't prove where the admixture actually happened and if comparing with old samples always favours the more recent.
I am more inclined to trust the deep testing of the male haplogroup as it can tell you unequivocally to whom you are related and when exactly the split happened. There are very few haplogroups among Bulgarians which could be attributed to recent steppe admixture, for example of the 137 Genomes of the Eurasian steppes. Stamov is trying to make us at least 40% protoBulgarians, but can't get away with the haplogroup results, so he is preaching everywhere they are not important.

J Man
11-04-2020, 02:00 PM
If we trust Eupeda, Western Asian like admixture is more then evidently coming to the Balkans form South East.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml#West_Asian

However I am not a big fan of the autosomal analysis, it depends a lot with whom you compare to and use as reference. It can't prove where the admixture actually happened and if comparing with old samples always favours the more recent.
I am more inclined to trust the deep testing of the male haplogroup as it can tell you unequivocally to whom you are related and when exactly the split happened. There are very few haplogroups among Bulgarians which could be attributed to recent steppe admixture, for example of the 137 Genomes of the Eurasian steppes. Stamov is trying to make us at least 40% protoBulgarians, but can't get away with the haplogroup results, so he is preaching everywhere they are not important.

Barring Jewish and Romany admixture where do you think the majority of ethnic Bulgarian Y-DNA haplogroup J2a clade results come from? A variety of ancestral sources?

vasil
11-04-2020, 02:43 PM
If we trust Eupeda, Western Asian like admixture is more then evidently coming to the Balkans form South East.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml#West_Asian

However I am not a big fan of the autosomal analysis, it depends a lot with whom you compare to and use as reference. It can't prove where the admixture actually happened and if comparing with old samples always favours the more recent.
I am more inclined to trust the deep testing of the male haplogroup as it can tell you unequivocally to whom you are related and when exactly the split happened. There are very few haplogroups among Bulgarians which could be attributed to recent steppe admixture, for example of the 137 Genomes of the Eurasian steppes. Stamov is trying to make us at least 40% protoBulgarians, but can't get away with the haplogroup results, so he is preaching everywhere they are not important.

Exactly, what he is saying makes zero sense. He is saying that Bulgarians are 40% Bulgars autosomaly but from all the data we have Bulgarians dont have more than 5% recent steppe y-dna and at the same time the Bulgars were the elite and patrilineality is very important in the steppe ie what he is basically implying is the Bulgar elite had only daughters and married them to the Slavic peasants which is the most absurd thing i have ever heard in my life.

xripkan
11-04-2020, 04:30 PM
If we will trust Turkic theory of Bulgars, Bulgarians are 12% Turkic


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.4332% / 0.01433203
49.4 BGR_IA
38.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
11.8 KAZ_Turk_o
0.2 JPN_Jomon

Distance is almost the same as when we use Iranic samples ( Alan or Scythian )

The reference you use is an outlier among Medieval Kazak Turk samples. It is not Turkic but Iranic.

CyrylBojarski
11-04-2020, 04:47 PM
The reference you use is an outlier among Medieval Kazak Turk samples. It is not Turkic but Iranic.

It is mixed Turko-Iranic, I support Irano-Turkic theory of Bulgars. Bulga in Turkic means mixed

Granary
11-04-2020, 09:52 PM
The Ottomans seem to be the only ones we dont have admixture from. On the other hand they seem to have admixture from us, Islam and Christianity were the dividing factors but because there were Bulgarians converting to Islam and they intermaried with the settlers they received genetic input from us.

Not even Gagauz people have particularly much Ottoman ancestry and they speaok Oghuz Turkic, it seems religion was indeed an extremely strong dividing factor even when you have Turkic speaking groups.

CyrylBojarski
11-04-2020, 10:25 PM
Not even Gagauz people have particularly much Ottoman ancestry and they speaok Oghuz Turkic, it seems religion was indeed an extremely strong dividing factor even when you have Turkic speaking groups.

I do not understand how in this case Balkanic people have not Ottoman Turk DNA if land where their ancestors lived was Ottoman Empire for centuries and people from different places of Empire moved to Balkans. Even Russians have some DNA from Mongols, while they were not even so long in Russia as Turks in Balkans

Johnny ola
11-04-2020, 10:57 PM
I do not understand how in this case Balkanic people have not Ottoman Turk DNA if land where their ancestors lived was Ottoman Empire for centuries and people from different places of Empire moved to Balkans. Even Russians have some DNA from Mongols, while they were not even so long in Russia as Turks in Balkans

It has a name:Orthodox Christianity...

Granary
11-04-2020, 11:05 PM
I do not understand how in this case Balkanic people have not Ottoman Turk DNA if land where their ancestors lived was Ottoman Empire for centuries and people from different places of Empire moved to Balkans. Even Russians have some DNA from Mongols, while they were not even so long in Russia as Turks in Balkans
Do Russians actually have that much DNA from 13th-15th century Mongol domination? Especially when we account for pre-Turkic Iranic influence, early Turkic influence and Uralic influence?

Johnny ola
11-04-2020, 11:13 PM
Do Russians actually have that much DNA from 13th-15th century Mongol domination? Especially when we account for pre-Turkic Iranic influence, early Turkic influence and Uralic influence?

Russians have mixed hardly with Finno-Ugrians/Uralics in general.Their Turkic admixture might be a more recent phenomenon from Tatars etc.Their expansion also to Siberia brought them closer with other Turko-uralic folks.Putin for example is northern Russian i bet if you test him he will score significant Uralic.

CyrylBojarski
11-04-2020, 11:51 PM
Do Russians actually have that much DNA from 13th-15th century Mongol domination? Especially when we account for pre-Turkic Iranic influence, early Turkic influence and Uralic influence?

Not from Mongol domination, but there were a lot of Turkic states on modern territory of Russia after 15th century and they have admixture from Turkic people

CyrylBojarski
11-04-2020, 11:54 PM
Russians have mixed hardly with Finno-Ugrians/Uralics in general.Their Turkic admixture might be a more recent phenomenon from Tatars etc.Their expansion also to Siberia brought them closer with other Turko-uralic folks.Putin for example is northern Russian i bet if you test him he will score significant Uralic.
41002
I am about Mongol-like DNA, not about Finnic, they have about 10% of it

Generalissimo
11-05-2020, 12:04 AM
41002
I am about Mongol-like DNA, not about Finnic, they have about 10% of it

"A Genetic Atlas of Human Admixture History" is a pile of crap.

It's based on modern DNA and often confuses the direction of gene flow.

Russians don't have 10% Turkic or Mongol ancestry. Some Russian groups have Finno-Ugric and Volga Tatar substrates because their ancestors settled in lands that were Finno-Ugric and Tatar.

Johnny ola
11-05-2020, 12:27 AM
41002
I am about Mongol-like DNA, not about Finnic, they have about 10% of it

Stop pretend yourself being Turko-Mongol warrior aka Attila the Hun xD :lol:

Russians,Bulgarians and Poles have nothing to do with such people xD.Also your ydna is not associated with such populations. :)

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 07:33 AM
Stop pretend yourself being Turko-Mongol warrior aka Attila the Hun xD :lol:

Russians,Bulgarians and Poles have nothing to do with such people xD.Also your ydna is not associated with such populations. :)

I did not say I am Turkic or something like this nowhere and Poles are 0% Turkic. I said true about Russian and Bulgarian DNA

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 08:02 AM
"A Genetic Atlas of Human Admixture History" is a pile of crap.

It's based on modern DNA and often confuses the direction of gene flow.

Russians don't have 10% Turkic or Mongol ancestry. Some Russian groups have Finno-Ugric and Volga Tatar substrates because their ancestors settled in lands that were Finno-Ugric and Tatar.

Same thing with Bulgaria and Ottoman Turks, they settled Bulgaria and mix was inevitable

Alain
11-05-2020, 08:57 AM
Same thing with Bulgaria and Ottoman Turks, they settled Bulgaria and mix was inevitable

Bulgarians do not come from Ottoman Turks but from Slavs, the indigenous local population such as Thracians ... absorbed, yes, small minimal admixture of proto-Bulgarians from the steppe area, that's it

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 09:11 AM
Bulgarians do not come from Ottoman Turks but from Slavs, the indigenous local population such as Thracians ... absorbed, yes, small minimal admixture of proto-Bulgarians from the steppe area, that's it

Such Slavic, that are closer to Anatolians, than to modern Slavic populations genetically

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1325% / 0.01132514
60.0 Greek_Izmir
40.0 Ukrainian

Alain
11-05-2020, 09:18 AM
Such Slavic, that are closer to Anatolians, than to modern Slavic populations genetically

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1325% / 0.01132514
60.0 Greek_Izmir
40.0 Ukrainian

It always looks like a Mediterranean component (Greco-Romanic) because there were many Greek colonies in Bulgaria and later Roman provinces, yes there are Turks in Bulgaria as a large minority from the Ottoman period, but they did not change the entire genome of the Bulgarians but remained more to their community (one aspect of religion ...)

23abc
11-05-2020, 09:33 AM
Such Slavic, that are closer to Anatolians, than to modern Slavic populations genetically

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1325% / 0.01132514
60.0 Greek_Izmir
40.0 Ukrainian

You have a strange definition of Anatolian.

Target: Greek_Izmir
Distance: 0.8992% / 0.00899218
86.8 Greek_Peloponnese
13.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia

Distance to: Bulgarian
0.08210549 Ukrainian
0.10479435 Greek_Central_Anatolia

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 09:38 AM
It always looks like a Mediterranean component (Greco-Romanic) because there were many Greek colonies in Bulgaria and later Roman provinces, yes there are Turks in Bulgaria as a large minority from the Ottoman period, but they did not change the entire genome of the Bulgarians but remained more to their community (one aspect of religion ...)

Bulgarians have large amount of DNA, that is Western Asian-like, I do not think it came from Greeks.
Religion is not reason to not mix, we can compare Tatars in Russia and Turks in Bulgaria, Tatars have also different religion from Eastern Slavs, but they admixed with each other.

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 09:42 AM
You have a strange definition of Anatolian.

Target: Greek_Izmir
Distance: 0.8992% / 0.00899218
86.8 Greek_Peloponnese
13.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia

Distance to: Bulgarian
0.08210549 Ukrainian
0.10479435 Greek_Central_Anatolia

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.5476% / 0.01547563
51.4 Greek_Crete
47.8 Polish
0.8 Turkish_Southwest



Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 2.3234% / 0.02323397
56.4 Ukrainian
43.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 3.5630% / 0.03562974
50.2 Polish
49.8 Turkish_Istanbul

Alain
11-05-2020, 09:50 AM
Bulgarians have large amount of DNA, that is Western Asian-like, I do not think it came from Greeks.
Religion is not reason to not mix, we can compare Tatars in Russia and Turks in Bulgaria, Tatars have also different religion from Eastern Slavs, but they admixed with each other.

The mixture of Tatars and Russians is partly from more recent times, for example the Cossacks or Russians from Pinega
have absorbed some "exotics" but that doesn't change the whole genome of a population, yes, but religion used to be an aspect of marrying in one's own community, except for kidnapping other population groups, the Mongols have left no significant genetic contribution to the Slavic population They had taken over a large territory, but there were different ethnic groups who were vassals, and I do not think that half of the Bulgarians are descended from Anatolian Turks, that's their opinion

23abc
11-05-2020, 09:58 AM
.

Who knows if any of these models would hold in qpAdm. But this is what I think is likely:

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.0756% / 0.01075568
49.6 Ukrainian
30.8 BGR_IA
19.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia

The same processes which made Romans so East Med surely made Greece and the Balkans more East Med at a similar point in time, it's just that the Balkans Slavic admixture drowned it all out.

Johnny ola
11-05-2020, 10:14 AM
Bulgarians have large amount of DNA, that is Western Asian-like, I do not think it came from Greeks.
Religion is not reason to not mix, we can compare Tatars in Russia and Turks in Bulgaria, Tatars have also different religion from Eastern Slavs, but they admixed with each other.

Religion was a very important factor in Balkans during Ottoman Empire to not mix and ofc keep in mind than even Muslims did not wanted to mix with Christians. It was a sin. Most people from Balkans converted Like Albanians, Bosnians or Pomaks etc. Ofc the policies of the Ottoman empire with devshirme played a role that many Christian Balkan kids have switched to Islam and become Ottomans. What happened in Russia is an other story.

eastara
11-05-2020, 10:47 AM
Modern Bulgarian largely descend from mountain people, who spread to the plains and bigger Ottoman cities only in 18-19c. Previously best arable land is taken over by the Turks and most Bulgarians who lived close to them in Eastern Bulgaria and Thrace were forced to convert and Turkify. It was rewarded to convert to Islam, while converting back to Christianity was punishable by death. While it was common for the Turks to kidnap and marry a Bulgarian girl the opposite was impossible. There could be occasional rapes, which could leave some Turkish genes among Bulgarians, but most Turks were former Balkanians anyway, so not very evident.

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 10:49 AM
Religion was a very important factor in Balkans during Ottoman Empire to not mix and ofc keep in mind than even Muslims did not wanted to mix with Christians. It was a sin. Most people from Balkans converted Like Albanians, Bosnians or Pomaks etc. Ofc the policies of the Ottoman empire with devshirme played a role that many Christian Balkan kids have switched to Islam and become Ottomans. What happened in Russia is an other story.

What happened in Russia is similiar, you said religion is most important factor for mixing, but Tatars for example somehow mixed with Russians. I know many Bulgarians have Turkish roots, who are Christians

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 10:57 AM
Who knows if any of these models would hold in qpAdm. But this is what I think is likely:

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.0756% / 0.01075568
49.6 Ukrainian
30.8 BGR_IA
19.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia

The same processes which made Romans so East Med surely made Greece and the Balkans more East Med at a similar point in time, it's just that the Balkans Slavic admixture drowned it all out.

Do not mix Ancient samples with modern, I showed that Bulgarians can be easily modelled as 1/2 Turkish and 1/2 Slavic (Polish), it is funny to see how people call Bulgarians as "pure" Slavs genetically


Target: BGR_IA
Distance: 2.4870% / 0.02487003
44.2 Greek_Izmir
35.0 Sardinian
14.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
6.8 Greek_Peloponnese

eastara
11-05-2020, 11:09 AM
What happened in Russia is similiar, you said religion is most important factor for mixing, but Tatars for example somehow mixed with Russians. I know many Bulgarians have Turkish roots, who are Christians

The difference is that in Russia the tables were turned and from vassals to the Tartars they became their rulers. When Ivan the Terrible conquered Kazan khaganate he ordered the surviving Tartars there to convert to Christianity or be put to death. There are theories even that the word "крестьяне", i.e peasants, but literally meaning "christened" refers to those Tartars who became serfs to the Russians after that. Later many non Russian people voluntarily converted to Christianity and Russified, as it was more beneficial to them. While in Bulgaria during Ottoman times nobody had any benefits to be a Orthodox Bulgarian. For that reason Bulgarians also did not mix with the Jews until Communist times, while many converted to Islam, the so called "donmehs".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6nmeh#:~:text=The%20D%C3%B6nmeh%20(Hebrew%3A %20%D7%93%D7%95%D6%B9%D7%A0%D6%B0%D7%9E%D6%B6%D7%9 4%E2%80%8E,was%20centered%20mainly%20in%20Thessalo niki.

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 11:31 AM
The difference is that in Russia the tables were turned and from vassals to the Tartars they became their rulers. When Ivan the Terrible conquered Kazan khaganate he ordered the surviving Tartars there to convert to Christianity or be put to death. There are theories even that the word "крестьяне", i.e peasants, but literally meaning "christened" refers to those Tartars who became serfs to the Russians after that. Later many non Russian people voluntarily converted to Christianity and Russified, as it was more beneficial to them. While in Bulgaria during Ottoman times nobody had any benefits to be a Orthodox Bulgarian. For that reason Bulgarians also did not mix with the Jews until Communist times, while many converted to Islam, the so called "donmehs".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6nmeh#:~:text=The%20D%C3%B6nmeh%20(Hebrew%3A %20%D7%93%D7%95%D6%B9%D7%A0%D6%B0%D7%9E%D6%B6%D7%9 4%E2%80%8E,was%20centered%20mainly%20in%20Thessalo niki.

I did not hear anything about Christened Tatars. After Ivan the Terrible conquered Kazan khaganate, Tatars had autonomy within Russian Empire and there was Islam. Turks or Jews could mix with Bulgarians How I said in previous comments I know Bulgarians with Turkish roots, who are Christians and I also have distant cousins from Balkans who have distant Jewish roots and mixing happened until communism. I know there are many situations of people which ancestors intermix with people of other religions in 19,20 century

eastara
11-05-2020, 11:54 AM
Bulgarians did not mix with Jews during Ottoman times. However for some reason, especially on FTDNA Myorigin some Bulgarians receive false Sephardic or Ashkenazi admixture. This is because FTDNA algorithm is very primitive and people who have similar East European/Middle Easterm mix like the Jews are branded with this. 23andMe also started with assigning many Bulgarians to Ashkenazi admixture, especially when they had Jewish relatives(probably through the Slavic admixture in Ashlekenazi), but more recently they learned how to tell the real Jews and this disappeared. Strongly recommend to test with 23andme if you want to know if any Jewish connection.

You should read also more about history of Russia:
Downfall
Main article: Siege of Kazan
In August 1552, forces of Ivan the Terrible, operating from the Russian castle of Sviyazhsk, laid siege to Kazan. The Russians defeated the Tatar inland troops, burnt Archa and some castles. On October 3, after two months of siege and destruction of the citadel walls, the Russians entered the city. Some defenders managed to escape but most were put to the sword. Yadegar Moxammad was imprisoned and the population was slaughtered. The Kazan Chronicle[dubious – discuss] reports about 110,000 killed, both civilians and garrison.
After the fall of Kazan, territories such as Udmurtia and Bashkortostan joined Russia without a conflict. The administration of the khanate was wiped out; pro-Moscow and neutral nobles kept their lands, but others were executed. Tatars were then resettled far away from rivers, roads and Kazan. Free lands were settled by Russians and sometimes by pro-Russian Tatars. [B]Orthodox bishops such as Germogen forcibly baptized many Tatars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanate_of_Kazan

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 11:58 AM
Bulgarians did not mix with Jews during Ottoman times. However for some reason, especially on FTDNA Myorigin some Bulgarians receive false Sephardic or Ashkenazi admixture. This is because FTDNA algorithm is very primitive and people who have similar East European/Middle Easterm mix like the Jews are branded with this. 23andMe also started with assigning many Bulgarians to Ashkenazi admixture, especially when they had Jewish relatives(probably through the Slavic admixture in Ashlekenazi), but more recently they learned how to tell the real Jews and this disappeared. Strongly recommend to test with 23andme if you want to know if any Jewish connection.

You should read also more about history of Russia:
Downfall
Main article: Siege of Kazan
In August 1552, forces of Ivan the Terrible, operating from the Russian castle of Sviyazhsk, laid siege to Kazan. The Russians defeated the Tatar inland troops, burnt Archa and some castles. On October 3, after two months of siege and destruction of the citadel walls, the Russians entered the city. Some defenders managed to escape but most were put to the sword. Yadegar Moxammad was imprisoned and the population was slaughtered. The Kazan Chronicle[dubious – discuss] reports about 110,000 killed, both civilians and garrison.
After the fall of Kazan, territories such as Udmurtia and Bashkortostan joined Russia without a conflict. The administration of the khanate was wiped out; pro-Moscow and neutral nobles kept their lands, but others were executed. Tatars were then resettled far away from rivers, roads and Kazan. Free lands were settled by Russians and sometimes by pro-Russian Tatars. [B]Orthodox bishops such as Germogen forcibly baptized many Tatars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanate_of_Kazan

Lol, I have never seen false Ashkenazi on 23andme, I have never also seen full Bulgarians with Ashkenazi on 23andme. FTDNA 3.0 fixed this problem, you can see results of Bulgarians in thread FTDNA update
Only Poles can match Jews through Slavic admix, Ashkenazim do not have Bulgarian DNA
I was tested on 23andme, I have a very few, but I have Bulgarian relatives with Ashkenazi percentage and they have known Sephardi ancestry due to Ottoman Empire

Only minority of Tatars were Christianised

eastara
11-05-2020, 12:09 PM
Lol, I have never seen false Ashkenazi on 23andme, I have never also seen full Bulgarians with Ashkenazi on 23andme. FTDNA 3.0 fixed this problem, you can see results of Bulgarians in thread FTDNA update

If you are Russian it is very likely your Jewish is real, regardless if know it or not, however this is not the case with Bulgarians. There was no way Bulgarians mixing with Jews as only church weddings were legal. Converting to Judaism was a big NO for Bulgarians during Ottoman times, while Jews had no benefits to do the opposite(like in Russia). Jews and Bulgarians started to intermarry only when civil marriage was introduced during Communist times.
I personally had around 1% Ashkenazi and has heaps of Ashkenazi "relatives" as was from the first Bulgarians who tested with 23andMe version 2.0. Now I have none and almost all Ashkenazi relatives disappeared.

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 12:19 PM
If you are Russian it is very likely your Jewish is real, regardless if know it or not, however this is not the case with Bulgarians. There was no way Bulgarians mixing with Jews as only church weddings were legal. Converting to Judaism was a big NO for Bulgarians during Ottoman times, while Jews had no benefits to do the opposite(like in Russia). Jews and Bulgarians started to intermarry only when civil marriage was introduced during Communist times.
I personally had around 1% Ashkenazi and has heaps of Ashkenazi "relatives" as was from the first Bulgarians who tested with 23andMe version 2.0. Now I have none and almost all Ashkenazi relatives disappeared.

The thing is my Jewish ancestry is from Bulgarian side. My great great grandmother parents have Hebrew names, she married Bulgarian. I have a lot of Sephardic relatives from Latin America , some from Greece, Turkey and Bulgaria matching me on 23andme-reading Ashkenazi, Spanish and Portuguese, Western Asian and Greek and Balkan segments. Also my Ashkenazi Jewish 23andme-reading segments are in one chromosomes near Greek and Balkan and Western Asian, that means it comes from one ancestor, no way I have it from my North Slavic side.

Johnny ola
11-05-2020, 02:00 PM
What happened in Russia is similiar, you said religion is most important factor for mixing, but Tatars for example somehow mixed with Russians. I know many Bulgarians have Turkish roots, who are Christians

You don't understand because obvious you don't know the history of the balkans or you have an agenda.Russians and Tatars mixed quite recently and not all Russians are mixed with Tatars.Also you should not forget that bulgarians,greeks and other balkaners were under the ottoman ocupation for centuries.Do you really believe these 2 examples are the same?I don't think so.

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 02:06 PM
You don't understand because obvious you don't know the history of the balkans or you have an agenda.Russians and Tatars mixed quite recently and not all Russians are mixed with Tatars.Also you should not forget that bulgarians,greeks and other balkaners were under the ottoman ocupation for centuries.Do you really believe these 2 examples are the same?I don't think so.

I did not say these examples are the same, but you said something about religion, history of Russians is example of that people of other religions can mix, I even do not want to say more about Christian Bulgarians with Turkish or Jewish roots ( last is a bit rare, but such people exist ) , because you and user eastara think Bulgarians could not mix with them

Johnny ola
11-05-2020, 03:56 PM
I did not say these examples are the same, but you said something about religion, history of Russians is example of that people of other religions can mix, I even do not want to say more about Christian Bulgarians with Turkish or Jewish roots ( last is a bit rare, but such people exist ) , because you and user eastara think Bulgarians could not mix with them

The reason why the balkan ethnicities did not mixed with Ottomans it is has to do mostly for religious issues..and not only for Christians but also for Muslims.It is a sin in Islam someones to take a christian wife.In balkans there were only converts to Islam mostly by Albanians,Bosnians and Pomaks.Devshirme is an other story.Also you are wrong that Bulgarians have Turkic or east asian genes.Modern Bulgarians are mostly a combination of IA people(Balkans),Slavs , with also some Byzantine-West Asian influence.There are not Bulgarians with east eurasian genes and even if we see one day someone like this it will be not more than 0,5-1,5% on his autosomal.As for Jews,that's also an other story.People convert to Judaism usually they did not just mix.

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 05:42 PM
The reason why the balkan ethnicities did not mixed with Ottomans it is has to do mostly for religious issues..and not only for Christians but also for Muslims.It is a sin in Islam someones to take a christian wife.In balkans there were only converts to Islam mostly by Albanians,Bosnians and Pomaks.Devshirme is an other story.Also you are wrong that Bulgarians have Turkic or east asian genes.Modern Bulgarians are mostly a combination of IA people(Balkans),Slavs , with also some Byzantine-West Asian influence.There are not Bulgarians with east eurasian genes and even if we see one day someone like this it will be not more than 0,5-1,5% on his autosomal.As for Jews,that's also an other story.People convert to Judaism usually they did not just mix.

You are talking about majority, there were still Bulgarian-Turkish or Bulgarian-Jewish mixes, yes, they were rare, but they were.You are wrong if you think Bulgarians do not have Turkic or Iranic genes, check my and user xripkan previous comments, Bulgarians have 5-15% DNA from Bulgars

DgidguBidgu
11-05-2020, 06:11 PM
It is mixed Turko-Iranic, I support Irano-Turkic theory of Bulgars. Bulga in Turkic means mixed

The etymology is not Turkic, but IE and it appears for the first time in Europe before any Turk even mentioned in the historical annals.
It does not make sense to make state formations in a whole Eurasia before any other ethnic group and to wait for someone else to give you a name, someone who did not exist as a formed ethnic group at that same time.
The most ancient variant of the national name was blugii (бльгии), bolgi, as there are archeological finds and old European maps confirming the above.


In the ninth century and after, "Slovenian" is not understood as something separate from "Bulgarian". In fact, the Bulgarians were perceived as one of the Slavic peoples until the end of the 18th century, when the German scholars Schlφzer, Thunmann and Engel SUGGESTED that the Bulgarians were of Turkish or Tatar origin.
The first home name of the language is словѣньскый ѩзыкъ, and when Chernorizets Hrabar writes about the features and sharpness (the writing ) of the Bulgarians, he calls them Slovene - Прѣжде оубω словѣне на имѣхѫ книгъ нѫ чратами и рѣзами чьтѣхѫ и гатаахѫ Pagan sѫще.
Arab authors often consider "Bulgarians" equivalent to "Slavs" (Sakaliba)
Al Tabari, who lived in the late ninth century, reported that in 897 "the Slavs attacked the Romans in large numbers and killed many of them." It is about the defeat inflicted by Simeon's troops on the Byzantines in the battle of Bulgarofigon.
Ibn Fadlan, for him "Slavs" and "Bulgarians" are interchangeable concepts. Sometimes he calls the ruler Almus "king of the Bulgarians", and other times - "king of the Slavs".
The famous Arab historian, geographer and compiler Sheikh Imam Shihab ad-Din Abu ‘Abdullah Yakut b. ‘Abdullah al-Hamawi ar-Rumi al-Baghdadi (ca. 1179 - 1229) says the following about the capital of Volga Bulgaria:
"Bulgar - a city of the Slavs, located in the north"
A work by the Arab writer Abu Obeid Al Bekri contains a story of the Jew Ibrahim Ibn Yakub, who in 965 had the opportunity to meet and talk with envoys of the Bulgarian king. They told him that they were Bulgarians (al blakarin, бльгарин) and that they had translated the Gospel into Slavic.
As you can see, no one thought of the Bulgarians as something different than Slavs, on the contrary, the terms are interchangeable, yet the Bulgarians are the generators of this language, it is logical to be so.

vasil
11-05-2020, 06:40 PM
You are talking about majority, there were still Bulgarian-Turkish or Bulgarian-Jewish mixes, yes, they were rare, but they were.You are wrong if you think Bulgarians do not have Turkic or Iranic genes, check my and user xripkan previous comments, Bulgarians have 5-15% DNA from Bulgars

WHERE IS THE Y-DNA TO PROVE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING???
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bulgariandna?iframe=yresults

DgidguBidgu
11-05-2020, 06:40 PM
You are talking about majority, there were still Bulgarian-Turkish or Bulgarian-Jewish mixes, yes, they were rare, but they were.You are wrong if you think Bulgarians do not have Turkic or Iranic genes, check my and user xripkan previous comments, Bulgarians have 5-15% DNA from Bulgars

Well it is not only Christianity. Do you forget the fact that this was a slavery for Bulgarians? Who sleeps with his enemy? Only the traitors, and in this case it would be a betrayal of your own people.
While the Turks have Bulgarian DNA, this is easily explained by the blood tax, Devshirme, in which the healthiest boys were taken from their families. If it has anything in common, it most likely comes from local Anatolian genes. It is no secret that there was a constant cultural and population exchange between the Balkans and northwestern Anatolia.

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 06:57 PM
Well it is not only Christianity. Do you forget the fact that this was a slavery for Bulgarians? Who sleeps with his enemy? Only the traitors, and in this case it would be a betrayal of your own people.
While the Turks have Bulgarian DNA, this is easily explained by the blood tax, Devshirme, in which the healthiest boys were taken from their families. If it has anything in common, it most likely comes from local Anatolian genes. It is no secret that there was a constant cultural and population exchange between the Balkans and northwestern Anatolia.

Well, there are Bulgarians with Turkish roots or otherwise regardless of confession. It is also not secret, that Bulgarian people are partially descended from Turkic semi-nomadic warrior tribes called Bulgars

Johnny ola
11-05-2020, 06:59 PM
You are talking about majority, there were still Bulgarian-Turkish or Bulgarian-Jewish mixes, yes, they were rare, but they were.You are wrong if you think Bulgarians do not have Turkic or Iranic genes, check my and user xripkan previous comments, Bulgarians have 5-15% DNA from Bulgars

LoL definitely not.5%-15% turkic-iranic?You must be joking...

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 07:04 PM
LoL definitely not.5%-15% turkic-iranic?You must be joking...

No, I am not joking

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.4332% / 0.01433203
49.4 BGR_IA
38.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
11.8 KAZ_Turk_o
0.2 JPN_Jomon

DgidguBidgu
11-05-2020, 07:25 PM
Well, there are Bulgarians with Turkish roots or otherwise regardless of confession. It is also not secret, that Bulgarian people are partially descended from Turkic semi-nomadic warrior tribes called Bulgars

That is an invention from XVIII century and is not based on any evidence. DNA proved it was a big manipulation but we know that already from Obermuller for instance.
That claim for diff between Bulgarian and Bulgars... It looks more like an attempt to steal an ethnic identity because Bulgarian and Bulgars is the same ethnonym but transmitted by different language groups. The root is the same and belongs to one people and as I wrote already according to history records Bulgarians never had something in common with Turks. But they influenced Turks for sure.
This is nothing more than an attempt by some Asians to attach a part of a very rich but foreign history. Not a good move and speaking enough for the author... and a new try to continue the lie about the Bulgarians.

Johnny ola
11-05-2020, 07:30 PM
No, I am not joking

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.4332% / 0.01433203
49.4 BGR_IA
38.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
11.8 KAZ_Turk_o
0.2 JPN_Jomon

An outlier?LOL,this model is inaccurate. Bulgarians in G25 do not show any east eurasian influence,only one sample shows some tiny admixture(not more than 1%).Bulgarians have some Iran N admixture witch btw is also limited and its also not associated with Iranics or Turks.It is prolly from BA/IA or later from Greeks-Byzantines.

DgidguBidgu
11-05-2020, 07:35 PM
that Bulgarian people are partially descended from Turkic semi-nomadic



Bulgarians cannot be descendants of a younger nation.
The language of the Bulgarians is one of the few analytical languages in the world. Count on your fingers of ONE hand. You can't tie your pants with such ridiculous statements. We have Turkey since which year?!
Look there and check out Old Great Bulgaria, Danube Bulgaria, Volga Bulgaria... and we are talking about a civilization that left stone cities with aqueducts there in Asia from the Bulgarians.

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 07:43 PM
An outlier?LOL,this model is inaccurate. Bulgarians in G25 do not show any east eurasian influence,only one sample shows some tiny admixture(not more than 1%).Bulgarians have some Iran N admixture witch btw is also limited and its also not associated with Iranics or Turks.It is prolly from BA/IA or later from Greeks-Byzantines.

Bulgars were not full East Asian genetically

Johnny ola
11-05-2020, 07:49 PM
Bulgars were not full East Asian genetically

There are not lineages(ydna) to prove what you claiming...sorry!!!

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 08:24 PM
There are not lineages(ydna) to prove what you claiming...sorry!!!

Is Y DNA more important, than Autosomal DNA lol?

Johnny ola
11-05-2020, 08:27 PM
Is Y DNA more important, than Autosomal DNA lol?

Both the autosomal and ydna proves you wrong.You can leave the G25 samples and look for other Bulgarian kits.They have nothing to do with east eurasian genes.If Bulgarians had east eurasian genes they would clushter with modern Turks,North Caucasians etc.Bulgarians clushter with Romanians,Serbs,Northern Greeks and south Slavs in general.

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 08:29 PM
Both the autosomal and ydna proves you wrong.You can leave the G25 samples and look for other Bulgarian kits.They have nothing to do with east eurasian genes.If Bulgarians had east eursian genes they would clushter with modern Turks,North Caucasians etc.Bulgarians clushter with Romanians,Serbs,Northern Greeks and south Slavs in general.

They would cluster with Turks and North Caucasians if they were mostly Turkic. Romanians are more Turkic, than Bulgarians, they have about 20% Turkic or Siberian DNA, Bulgarians have 5-15%, we will know exact percentage when we will get Bulgar samples

Johnny ola
11-05-2020, 08:34 PM
They would cluster with Turks and North Caucasians if they were mostly Turkic. Romanians are more Turkic, than Bulgarians, they have about 20% Turkic or Siberian DNA, Bulgarians have 5-15%, we will know exact percentage when we will get Bulgar samples

LOLZZ!Where are the Romanian and Bulgarian members?hahahah this guy just made you Kazaks lolz :bounce::laugh::lol::rofl:

I am off you win me!!!!

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 08:36 PM
LOLZZ!Where are the Romanian and Bulgarian members?hahahah this guy just made you Kazaks lolz :bounce::laugh::lol::rofl:

I am off you win me!!!!

It is not battle to win. It is known Romanians have very high Turkic admixture, ask Romanians to make sure

Johnny ola
11-05-2020, 08:40 PM
It is not battle to win. It is known Romanians have very high Turkic admixture, ask Romanians to make sure

I don't have to ask Romanians.First of all not all of them scoring such components but even if they do it is not more than 2,3,4% witch is funny to call them high Turkic admixed.I know that you write as a Turkish nationalist but at least do it proper..

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 08:41 PM
I don't have to ask Romanians.First of all not all of them scoring such components but even if they do it is not more than 2,3,4% witch is funny to call them high Turkic admixed.I know that you write as a Turkish nationalist but at least do it proper..

Just understand that Turkic is not 100% East Asian component, you think it is and I have feeling you write numbers from Gedmatch East Asian admixture

Johnny ola
11-05-2020, 08:45 PM
Just understand that Turkic is not 100% East Asian component, you think it is and I have feeling you write numbers from Gedmatch East Asian admixture

Not even Turks from modern Turkey are not 10-15% Turkic admixed and are Bulgarians and Romanians according to you ahahaha okay.Anyway that it was my last comment not worth it to discuss with a Turkic nationalist..i am losing my time here.

td120
11-05-2020, 08:51 PM
Cyryl's been drinking too much ...or feeling overwhelmed with boredom.

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 08:52 PM
Not even Turks from modern Turkey are not 10-15% Turkic admixed and are Bulgarians and Romanians according to you ahahaha okay.Anyway that it was my last comment not worth it to discuss with a Turkic nationalist..i am losing my time here.

I am interested how can non-Turkic person be Turkic nationalist. Modern Turks are 25-35% Turkic

xripkan
11-05-2020, 08:55 PM
They would cluster with Turks and North Caucasians if they were mostly Turkic. Romanians are more Turkic, than Bulgarians, they have about 20% Turkic or Siberian DNA, Bulgarians have 5-15%, we will know exact percentage when we will get Bulgar samples

Not Turkic. They have about 10-15% admixture related to Western Scythians. It's a mix of Steppe+BMAC+East Eurasian+ancient northern Balkan like the admixture ancient Scythians and Sarmatians had. Such admixture existed in ancient Balkans and Eastern Europe. Hun Avar period at the model above is a proxy for such an ancestry.
I am just wondering if this was the genetic profile of Proto-Bulgars as well.
So their East Eurasian is much less than 10-15%. If they had 10-15% Turk admixture they would be similar to Balkan Turks. The medieval Turk outlier reference you use plots close to Tajiks not Turkmens or Uzbeks.
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 0.9357% / 0.00935687 | ADC: 0.25x
22.2 IND_Roopkund_B
19.6 VK2020_UKR_Lutsk_MA
14.2 Scythian_HUN
10.6 HUN_Avar_Period
10.4 UKR_Cimmerian_o
9.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
4.0 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
3.6 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro
3.4 DEU_Singen_EIA
1.6 Scythian_MDA
0.8 CZE_Early_Slav
0.4 HUN_MA
0.2 DEU_MA_o

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 09:02 PM
If they had 10-15% Turk admixture they would be similar to Balkan Turks.
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 0.9357% / 0.00935687 | ADC: 0.25x
22.2 IND_Roopkund_B
19.6 VK2020_UKR_Lutsk_MA
14.2 Scythian_HUN
10.6 HUN_Avar_Period
10.4 UKR_Cimmerian_o
9.0 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
4.0 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
3.6 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro
3.4 DEU_Singen_EIA
1.6 Scythian_MDA
0.8 CZE_Early_Slav
0.4 HUN_MA
0.2 DEU_MA_o

Actually Bulgarians are genetically very similiar to Balkan Turks

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 3.6141% / 0.03614143
79.4 Balkan_Turk
20.6 Ukrainian

vasil
11-05-2020, 09:04 PM
Actually Bulgarians are genetically very similiar to Balkan Turks

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 3.6141% / 0.03614143
79.4 Balkan_Turk
20.6 Ukrainian

Now you are just being a retard its not that Bulgarians are close to Balkan Turks but the other way arround ie Pomaks(Bulgarian converts to islam).

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 09:07 PM
Now you are just being a retard its not that Bulgarians are close to Balkan Turks but the other way arround ie Pomaks(Bulgarian converts to islam).

That does not change these 2 populations are very similiar genetically speaking

Alkaevli
11-05-2020, 09:09 PM
The etymology is not Turkic, but IE and it appears for the first time in Europe before any Turk even mentioned in the historical annals.
Bulgar is a Turkic word. The Bulgars were a Turkic people speaking a Lir/Oghur Turkic language. Their Volga branch (Volga Bulgars) played a role in the ethnic formation of present-day Kazan Tatars. The Turkic ethnonym Balkar is probably linked to Bulgar too.

Furthermore, Bulgar was even used as a personal name by Turks. Personal names from 16th-century Anatolian sanjaks of the Ottoman Empire:
https://abload.de/img/kozan7bjtt.png
https://abload.de/img/sivasu0j83.png



It does not make sense to make state formations in a whole Eurasia before any other ethnic group and to wait for someone else to give you a name, someone who did not exist as a formed ethnic group at that same time.
Anachronism at its best. The first people to use the ethnonym Turk to refer to themselves emerged as a political power (Turk Khaganate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Turkic_Khaganate)) in the early 6th century AD, but Turkic-speaking peoples and the Turkic language predate by far the Turk Khaganate. Turkic speakers existed under different tribal names prior to the spread of the word as a political designation. Turk was originally the name of a single tribe (or tribal confederation).

Johnny ola
11-05-2020, 09:11 PM
Where is Onur Dincer when you need him ? :lol:

xripkan
11-05-2020, 09:14 PM
Actually Bulgarians are genetically very similiar to Balkan Turks

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 3.6141% / 0.03614143
79.4 Balkan_Turk
20.6 Ukrainian

Because Balkan Turks have a lot of Slavo-Balkan admixture. Bulgarians have just traces of East Eurasian. This is what makes me wonder about Proto-Bulgars. It fits they were mostly an Western Iranic group with low East Eurasian rather a Turkic group highly East Eurasian-admixed.

Target: Turkish_Deliorman
Distance: 2.9965% / 0.02996531
39.2 STEPPE
38.2 EEF
6.6 LEVANT
5.6 IRAN
5.2 ASIA-EAST
3.0 WHG
2.2 CHG

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 3.0478% / 0.03047834
48.8 EEF
40.6 STEPPE
4.6 WHG
2.8 CENTRAL-ASIA
1.8 LEVANT
1.0 IRAN
0.2 ASIA-EAST
0.2 AUSTRALIA

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 09:20 PM
Because Balkan Turks have a lot of Slavo-Balkan admixture. Bulgarians have just traces of East Eurasian. This is what makes me wonder about Proto-Bulgars. It fits they were mostly an Western Iranic group with low East Eurasian rather a Turkic group highly East Eurasian-admixed.

Target: Turkish_Deliorman
Distance: 2.9965% / 0.02996531
39.2 STEPPE
38.2 EEF
6.6 LEVANT
5.6 IRAN
5.2 ASIA-EAST
3.0 WHG
2.2 CHG

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 3.0478% / 0.03047834
48.8 EEF
40.6 STEPPE
4.6 WHG
2.8 CENTRAL-ASIA
1.8 LEVANT
1.0 IRAN
0.2 ASIA-EAST
0.2 AUSTRALIA

What is model you are using, please share

xripkan
11-05-2020, 09:26 PM
What is model you are using, please share

It's G25 calculator of ancient basic components of ph2ter

AFRICA-NORTHWEST,-0.1950928,0.0838824,-0.0220238,-0.0860472,0.0300366,-0.057284,-0.0743572,0.017953,0.1578106,0.0036082,0.0185774,-0.032521,0.0781954,-0.0503696,0.071036,-0.0394586,0.0052676,-0.066765,-0.1426924,0.0345916,-0.0395804,-0.1231336,0.0711878,-0.013303,0.0179384
AFRICA-SOUTHEAST,-0.561906333,0.056531333,0.001257,0.024009667,-0.004000333,-0.007623,0.162862667,-0.119995,0.034973333,-0.022961667,-0.008065333,-0.024128333,-0.022695667,-0.000688,0.018593667,-0.016839,0.023512667,0.120818667,-0.035572667,-0.007670333,-0.015639,-0.006017667,0.000246333,-4E-05,-0.006706
AMERO-ASIATIC,0.0387,-0.305674,0.090886,0.086887,-0.082477,-0.018965,-0.129256,-0.155763,-0.01309,-0.025878,0.002436,-0.007793,0.011447,-0.008945,-0.010722,-0.001989,0.000782,0.004181,0.005531,0.014257,-0.009234,0.003091,0.009737,0.005061,0.003592
CHG,0.087644,0.106631,-0.086361,-0.002261,-0.08617,0.0251,0.028436,0.003923,-0.129464,-0.077086,-0.005359,0.023979,-0.056788,0.012386,0.030401,-0.032617,0.025034,-0.012289,-0.021117,0.033641,0.030821,-0.009398,0.009613,-0.022654,-0.001078
DRAVIDIAN,0.033009,-0.081242,-0.180641,0.120157,-0.097557,0.065539,0.0047,0.009461,0.035996,0.02678 9,-0.002273,0.003747,-0.005649,0.007982,0.003529,0.003182,0.008736,0.001 647,0.000126,-0.002001,0.001373,-0.008161,0.000246,-0.001928,-0.008023
EEF,0.123799353,0.183810882,0.010004882,-0.097736118,0.057893118,-0.046164647,-0.003193294,-0.003773529,0.044465882,0.090153294,0.007785,0.014 166882,-0.023733294,8.09412E-05,-0.041362706,-0.015411706,0.019580529,0.001594882,0.010521706,-0.011306882,-0.010819118,0.007528235,-0.005118471,-0.002665235,-0.005593059
EHG,0.120368,0.03808225,0.12774975,0.20260275,-0.0100015,0.057591,-0.0198585,-0.02538325,-0.0079765,-0.082553,0.016726,-0.01453675,0.028171,-0.04548425,0.02388675,0.0208495,-0.00805125,0.0006335,-0.0063475,0.016414,-0.005771,0.019568,0.008165,-0.020093,-0.0073345
SIBERIA,0.104717333,-0.067702,0.102325333,0.181311667,-0.093145667,0.039974333,-0.040265333,-0.049690333,-0.02502,-0.084253667,0.024304,-0.012888667,0.024776667,-0.068719667,0.032165667,0.021921333,-0.014255333,-0.008276667,-0.001424667,0.007211667,-0.025829667,0.009851,0.031099667,0.008233667,-0.013492
WHG,0.123688,0.115770333,0.185166,0.187556333,0.15 5208667,0.051223,0.015510667,0.036844333,0.0902633 33,0.017859,-0.015697333,-0.015936,0.016253333,-0.005367,0.053564333,0.061256333,0.003607333,0.012 711333,-0.009008333,0.054901333,0.09633,0.011087333,-0.049175667,-0.161749667,0.017763
IRAN,0.043395125,0.06867525,-0.1553265,-0.003553,-0.1179065,0.017813875,0.01445325,-0.002105625,-0.079074,-0.053805375,-0.00064975,-0.002941,0.006225125,-0.00815425,0.02862,0.056980375,-0.006796375,0.0072055,0.01194125,-0.03547025,0.008609875,-0.0251325,-0.00896625,-0.035487,0.02204875
LEVANT,0.0700015,0.170609,-0.0267755,-0.1493885,0.0315445,-0.070141,-0.0151585,-0.0148835,0.0751625,0.043281,0.008444,-0.013188,0.030996,-0.004266,-0.019883,0.007889,0.010105,-0.0081715,-0.009113,0.018071,-0.0052405,0.0072955,0.0015405,-0.0010845,-0.004431
NORTH-AMERICA,0.046667,-0.307705,0.109742,0.08721,-0.100634,-0.019801,-0.220675,-0.261681,-0.01268,-0.017677,0.001949,0.000599,0.001784,0.012524,-0.010043,0.010209,0.007302,0.005701,0.013575,0.005 002,0.000499,-0.008532,-0.002342,0.001566,-0.001676
SOUTH-AMERICA,0.048727095,-0.311622571,0.118290143,0.096807762,-0.11405781,-0.018380333,-0.286892048,-0.340799,-0.010927429,-0.015941238,0.00225019,-0.001534476,0.000155667,0.021737857,-0.006824762,0.004520619,0.006984762,-0.001104,0.00404619,0.004115095,0.000707143,0.0056 64524,-0.000786381,-0.001715667,-0.000667143
STEPPE,0.123827526,0.088083737,0.044480421,0.11366 2947,-0.027697368,0.045576632,0.003957947,-0.002101211,-0.055533579,-0.074812684,-0.000145316,-0.000836105,-0.001572789,-0.022200684,0.036558684,0.01194,-0.004741789,-0.002053684,-0.002811684,0.013052211,-0.004465789,0.002024053,0.012078368,0.021220421,-0.004184842
CENTRAL-ASIA,0.075882222,0.076051778,-0.113094222,0.020600222,-0.108874889,0.029779333,0.012194444,-0.004076889,-0.083468444,-0.054043,-0.000198556,0.001415444,-0.003386333,-0.011438,0.024308889,0.035254,-0.003172778,0.003786667,0.005907778,-0.023024889,0.000443556,-0.017160111,-0.001807667,-0.020739111,0.013065889
AUSTRALIA,-0.041887,-0.23215,-0.208171,0.229266,0.140519,-0.336844,0.00094,0.004384,-0.007976,0.001021,-0.006138,-0.00021,0.001041,-0.000633,-0.003257,-0.000955,0.010665,0.000152,-0.002514,0.007854,0.005016,0.001731,-0.004018,0.002265,-0.004598
ASIA-EAST,0.029512714,-0.413393,0.093175714,-0.016057714,-0.084521214,-0.047949286,0.005321214,0.0091975,0.014229071,0.01 2352929,-0.015844571,-0.003050857,0.002760786,-0.007441429,-0.004527286,-0.004081786,-0.002514714,0.000887,0.004489286,0.016793714,-0.017709857,-0.006474143,-0.014860071,-0.002616429,0.003669286

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 09:40 PM
Where is Onur Dincer when you need him ? :lol:

Maybe I overdid it, but about 5% is for sure from Bulgars and it is Turkic in Bulgarians. Romanians have about 10%, but it is depends what do you use as proxy for Turkic. If we use ancient Nomad or pure Turkic ( Siberian, Altaic ) samples Turkic percentage is on level what I said in this comment

DgidguBidgu
11-05-2020, 10:00 PM
Nope is not Turkic, it is an autonym. Your personal desires have nothing to do with reality. Khaganat/Khan/Kanac /Akenac/the Irish-Gaelic CEANNAS/the German cyning, koning, konge are of IE origin and is obviously a loan from Bulgarian-*кань, конъ-начало,началник, заченти-започвам. As well as "Stan"some nation in Asia using today. I could help you what is the word and what is its etymology. Well, we have it even in English today. It's obviously where it comes from. Not from Turks who want to be connected with Bulgarians and their statehood, culture and heritage. The chord committed genocide against the Bulgarians to seek to benefit from their history. LOL

DgidguBidgu
11-05-2020, 10:11 PM
Maybe I overdid it, but about 5% is for sure from Bulgars and it is Turkic in Bulgarians. Romanians have about 10%, but it is depends what do you use as proxy for Turkic. If we use ancient Nomad or pure Turkic ( Siberian, Altaic ) samples Turkic percentage is on level what I said in this comment

By your logic, the Romanians are also Turks, and why not the Greeks, and we can extend the list with your help.

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 10:16 PM
By your logic, the Romanians are also Turks, and why not the Greeks, and we can extend the list with your help.

No, Bulgarians are Thracians, Romanians are Dacians, but those 2 populations, especially Romanians have very high Turkic admix, Bulgarians have not a lot as Romanians, but more than Yugoslavs ( they have 0% )

eastara
11-05-2020, 10:21 PM
The thing is my Jewish ancestry is from Bulgarian side. My great great grandmother parents have Hebrew names, she married Bulgarian. I have a lot of Sephardic relatives from Latin America , some from Greece, Turkey and Bulgaria matching me on 23andme-reading Ashkenazi, Spanish and Portuguese, Western Asian and Greek and Balkan segments. Also my Ashkenazi Jewish 23andme-reading segments are in one chromosomes near Greek and Balkan and Western Asian, that means it comes from one ancestor, no way I have it from my North Slavic side.

When did your great grandmother marry a Bulgarian? I bet it is after 1878 when Bulgaria became independent. Then there were rare cases in urban environment when Jewish women married Bulgarian men, but first converting to Christianity. Another case was with Bulgarian communists in 1920s and 30s, many had Jewish de-facto wives, as they thought legal marriage was a bourgeois redundant institution. Many of them also lived abroad and in USSR. First Bulgarian communist leader Georgi Dimitrov had a second wife an Ashkenazi from rich Austrian family, who was involved in the Comintern. However when returning to Bulgaria his mother insisted of not living in sin and have a church wedding, when she formally converted to Christianity.

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 10:31 PM
When did your great grandmother marry a Bulgarian? I bet it is after 1878 when Bulgaria became independent. Then there were rare cases in urban environment when Jewish women married Bulgarian men, but first converting to Christianity. Another case was with Bulgarian communists in 1920s and 30s, many had Jewish de-facto wives, as they thought legal marriage was a bourgeois redundant institution. Many of them also lived abroad and in USSR. First Bulgarian communist leader Georgi Dimitrov had a second wife an Ashkenazi from rich Austrian family, who was involved in the Comintern. However when returning to Bulgaria his mother insisted of not living in sin and have a church wedding, when she formally converted to Christianity.

In 1920s, my Bulgarian ancestors lived in USSR for 200 years

Alkaevli
11-05-2020, 10:53 PM
Not even Turks from modern Turkey are not 10-15% Turkic admixed and are Bulgarians and Romanians according to you ahahaha okay.Anyway that it was my last comment not worth it to discuss with a Turkic nationalist..i am losing my time here.


I am just wondering if this was the genetic profile of Proto-Bulgars as well.
So their East Eurasian is much less than 10-15%. If they had 10-15% Turk admixture they would be similar to Balkan Turks.
I thought Damgaard's paper made it clear that the medieval Central Asian Turkic genetic profile was not Korean-like. Why do you keep repeating this old myth? Most of the medieval Turkic samples from Kazakhstan have less than 50% East Eurasian ancestry.

Based on ~600 samples of our project, ethnic Turks of Anatolia have 10% East Eurasian (Mongoloid) admixture on average. Balkan Turks have less than that. The level of Central Asian admixture in Anatolian Turks is a different story.

East Eurasian admixture decreases from west to east.

ADMIXTURE CALCULATOR:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JEezl8YoZjOoNqnMoha9sWdMsvIwYYmV5ccljTkhryQ/edit?usp=sharing

GLOBAL25:
Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.4479% / 0.01447858
53.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
22.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.4 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave
10.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.5214% / 0.01521397
49.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
19.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
13.4 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave

Target: Turkish_South
Distance: 0.9664% / 0.00966422
36.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
31.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
18.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.4 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave

Target: Turkish_North
Distance: 1.3688% / 0.01368812
47.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
17.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
14.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
12.0 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave

Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 1.1867% / 0.01186722
43.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
31.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
16.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.8 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave

Target: Turkish_East
Distance: 0.9225% / 0.00922471
48.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
26.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
14.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
3.6 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave

Target: Turkish_Trabzon
Distance: 1.7261% / 0.01726144
47.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
39.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
9.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
3.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



Not Turkic. They have about 10-15% admixture related to Western Scythians. It's a mix of Steppe+BMAC+East Eurasian+ancient northern Balkan like the admixture ancient Scythians and Sarmatians had. Such admixture existed in ancient Balkans and Eastern Europe. Hun Avar period at the model above is a proxy for such an ancestry.
False. We have samples both from medieval Turkic peoples of Central Asia (Damgaard et al.) and Anatolian Greeks, so it is not difficult to model modern Anatolian Turks. The Oghuz/Turkmens started migrating into Anatolia in late 11th century AD from West Central Asia, but not in the form of Proto-Turks whose precise genetic profile is still unknown.

The level of Central Asian ancestry varies from west to east across Anatolia.

Global25 nMonte
Reference: KAZ_Karluk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karluks)
https://abload.de/img/adszkakk6.png
https://abload.de/img/adsz2ttkln.png

Reference: KAZ_Karakhanid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara-Khanid_Khanate)
https://abload.de/img/a148kay.png
https://abload.de/img/a22vjze.png

Reference: KAZ_Turk
https://abload.de/img/b12ik0k.png
https://abload.de/img/b2lpjx5.png

https://abload.de/img/newpca2yjsr.png

Global mixed mode method also confirms the nMonte models above. You can't model Turks as a mix of Anatolian Greeks and a fully East Eurasian population, it simply won't work.

300-1500 AD samples

Turkish_Central

Single Population Approximation List:
1. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA160 @ 0.053836
2. Crimea (Ostrogothic period) – KER_1 @ 0.056397
3. West Iranian (Middle Ages) – I1955 @ 0.058265
4. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA164 @ 0.066898
5. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA243 @ 0.069780
6. Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.073284
7. Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.082287
8. Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR134 @ 0.083208
9. Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 @ 0.083836
10. South Italian (Viking Age) – VK537 @ 0.085230

2-Population Approximation List:
1. 28.5% Early Turk (Central Steppe) – DA89 + 71.5% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.015938
2. 21.3% Karakhanid – DA204 + 78.7% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.019708
3. 40.6% Medieval Turk (Anatolia) – MA2196 + 59.4% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.019941
4. 22.4% Nomad (Karluk period) – DA126 + 77.6% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.020151
5. 73.8% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 + 26.2% Orkhon Uyghur (Eastern Steppe) – OLN012 @ 0.020911
6. 22.4% Karluk – DA230 + 77.6% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.021929
7. 21.3% Karluk – DA222 + 78.7% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.022209
8. 33.3% Kipchak – DA179 + 66.7% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.022227
9. 20.9% Karakhanid – DA203 + 79.1% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.022553
10. 78.1% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 + 21.9% Orkhon Uyghur (Eastern Steppe) – OLN009 @ 0.022789


Turkish_Southwest

Single Population Approximation List:
1. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA160 @ 0.073398
2. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA164 @ 0.075162
3. Medieval Turk (Anatolia) – MA2196 @ 0.077212
4. Crimea (Ostrogothic period) – KER_1 @ 0.078173
5. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA243 @ 0.079280
6. West Iranian (Middle Ages) – I1955 @ 0.083718
7. East Iranic (Eastern Steppe) – OLN003 @ 0.087587
8. Pannonian Basin (Avar period) – SZ1 @ 0.093925
9. Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.100131
10. Hun–Gepid – VIM_2 @ 0.101136

2-Population Approximation List:
1. 60.6% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 39.4% Early Turk (Central Steppe) – DA89 @ 0.018856
2. 39.8% Early Turk (Central Steppe) – DA89 + 60.2% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.019613
3. 43.2% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 56.8% Medieval Turk (Anatolia) – MA2196 @ 0.020264
4. 58.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 + 41.1% Early Turk (Central Steppe) – DA89 @ 0.020392
5. 62.9% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 + 37.1% Orkhon Uyghur (Eastern Steppe) – OLN012 @ 0.021460
6. 57.3% Medieval Turk (Anatolia) – MA2196 + 42.7% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.021550
7. 31.5% Nomad (Karluk period) – DA126 + 68.5% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.022290
8. 58.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR134 + 41.1% Early Turk (Central Steppe) – DA89 @ 0.022324
9. 41.3% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 + 58.7% Medieval Turk (Anatolia) – MA2196 @ 0.022333
10. 47.3% Kipchak – DA179 + 52.7% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.022471




1000-300 AD samples

Turkish_Central

Single Population Approximation List:
1. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA162 @ 0.053740
2. Mannaean – F38 @ 0.070679
3. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR1548 @ 0.076684
4. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR1544 @ 0.076972
5. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR114 @ 0.080742
6. Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR72 @ 0.085756
7. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR835 @ 0.085757
8. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR47 @ 0.087536
9. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR131 @ 0.089172
10. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR51 @ 0.089297

2-Population Approximation List:
1. 73.4% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 26.6% Xiongnu, Central Asian profile – DA38 @ 0.024593
2. 75.1% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 24.9% Xiongnu, Central Asian profile – SKT005 @ 0.026231
3. 59.4% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR72 + 40.6% Kushan – I12294 @ 0.026280
4. 56.2% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR78 + 43.8% Kushan – I12294 @ 0.027081
5. 69.6% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 30.4% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA73 @ 0.027272
6. 66.0% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 34.0% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA69 @ 0.027396
7. 65.6% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 34.4% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA101 @ 0.027427
8. 68.9% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 31.1% Tarim Basin (Iron Age) – M820 @ 0.027836
9. 71.9% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 28.1% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA385 @ 0.028127
10. 70.6% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 29.4% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA100 @ 0.028317


Turkish_Southwest

Single Population Approximation List:
1. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA162 @ 0.070540
2. Western Scythian – scy311 @ 0.082193
3. Western Scythian – scy301 @ 0.085392
4. Kangju – DA206 @ 0.089998
5. Mannaean – F38 @ 0.092949
6. Western Scythian – scy011 @ 0.095306
7. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR1544 @ 0.095960
8. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR1548 @ 0.097029
9. Geto-Thracian – scy305 @ 0.099020
10. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR835 @ 0.100869

2-Population Approximation List:
1. 65.3% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 34.7% Xiongnu, Central Asian profile – DA38 @ 0.022735
2. 63.8% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR72 + 36.2% Saka (Tian Shan) – DA50 @ 0.023221
3. 67.4% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR72 + 32.6% Xiongnu, Central Asian profile – DA38 @ 0.023283
4. 55.2% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 44.8% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA69 @ 0.023331
5. 58.2% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 41.8% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA72 @ 0.023524
6. 57.4% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR72 + 42.6% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA69 @ 0.023560
7. 60.0% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 40.0% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA73 @ 0.023582
8. 64.1% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 35.9% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA54 @ 0.023658
9. 61.7% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 38.3% Saka (Tian Shan) – DA50 @ 0.023874
10. 57.2% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR72 + 42.8% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA101 @ 0.024110

vasil
11-05-2020, 10:54 PM
In 1920s, my Bulgarian ancestors lived in USSR for 200 years

Bessarabian Bulgarians?

xripkan
11-05-2020, 11:07 PM
snip

I never mentioned that medieval Turkic genetic profile was Korean-like.
Furthermore I was meaning Western Iranic groups when I was talking about Steppe+BMAC+East Eurasian with extra native ancient Balkan/European input not the Turkic peoples.
My question is clear, based on the point that if Proto-Bulgars were Turkic similar to Central Asia Turkic group even an input 10-15% would make Bulgarians similar to Balakn Turks. However Bulgarians score some traces of East Eurasian, definitely less than 1%.
Isn't it more plausible they were a Western Iranic group with the genetic profile I described above?

Alkaevli
11-05-2020, 11:11 PM
Mixed Mode, 300-1500 AD

Bulgarian average

Single Population Approximation List:
1. Pannonian Basin (Middle Ages) – DA199 @ 0.045989
2. Pannonian Basin (Avar period) – SZ1 @ 0.046650
3. Germanic (Bavaria) – AED_1135 @ 0.052131
4. Visigoth (Iberia) – I12163 @ 0.053140
5. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR36 @ 0.054448
6. Central Italian (Papal States) – RMPR1287 @ 0.059291
7. Roman (Bavaria) – FN_2 @ 0.059647
8. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR121 @ 0.060274
9. Visigoth (Iberia) – I12162 @ 0.060351
10. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10853 @ 0.061224
11. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10895 @ 0.061233
12. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10892 @ 0.061480
13. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 @ 0.061705
14. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10852 @ 0.063218
15. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR120 @ 0.065778
16. Central Italian (Carolingian period) – RMPR1283 @ 0.066077
17. West European Crusader (Outremer) – SI-47 @ 0.066487
18. Germanic (Bavaria) – STR_220 @ 0.066789
19. Longobard (Szolad) – SZ42 @ 0.067067
20. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR118 @ 0.067259

2-Population Approximation List:
1. 51.7% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 48.3% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.015762
2. 44.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 55.9% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.016115
3. 48.4% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 51.6% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.017036
4. 43.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 + 56.1% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.017344
5. 53.2% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 + 46.8% Early Slav (Bohemia) – RISE569 @ 0.017723
6. 50.5% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 49.5% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 @ 0.017895
7. 45.2% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 + 54.8% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.018091
8. 48.6% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 51.4% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 @ 0.018153
9. 43.6% Izjaslav Ingvarevych (Rurikid dynasty) – VK541 + 56.4% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR121 @ 0.018296
10. 44.1% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 55.9% South Italian (Viking Age) – VK537 @ 0.018378
11. 51.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 48.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 @ 0.018647
12. 47.3% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 52.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 @ 0.019089
13. 54.9% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 + 45.1% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.019131
14. 42.6% Estonia (Middle Ages) – s19_IIf_1 + 57.4% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 @ 0.019144
15. 56.1% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 43.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR130 @ 0.019189
16. 37.5% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 62.5% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR36 @ 0.019297
17. 49.7% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 50.3% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR134 @ 0.019538
18. 40.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 59.1% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 @ 0.019588
19. 39.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR130 + 60.3% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.019592
20. 42.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR134 + 57.2% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.019614

3-Population Approximation List:
1. 45.7% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 32.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 22.2% Central Italian (Papal States) – RMPR1287 @ 0.011514
2. 51.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 14.9% Sardinia (Early Middle Ages) – COR001 + 33.2% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.011837
3. 51.6% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 14.9% Sardinia (Early Middle Ages) – COR002 + 33.5% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.012293
4. 39.8% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 44.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 15.4% West European Crusader (Outremer) – SI-39 @ 0.012754
5. 48.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 39.6% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 11.5% Sardinia (Middle Ages) – SNN003 @ 0.013024
6. 35.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 47.7% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 + 16.6% Pannonian Basin (Avar period) – SZ1 @ 0.013652
7. 41.1% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 11.5% Scandinavian (Viking Age) – VK393 + 47.4% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013868
8. 41.0% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 12.1% Scandinavian (Viking Age) – vik_stg021 + 46.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013874
9. 44.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 8.5% Pict (Viking Age) – VK201 + 46.6% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013881
10. 40.7% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 12.2% Scandinavian (Viking Age) – VK290 + 47.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013913
11. 43.8% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 9.4% Pict (Viking Age) – VK203 + 46.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013922
12. 48.0% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 34.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 17.9% Central Italian (Carolingian period) – RMPR1283 @ 0.013944
13. 47.1% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 44.0% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 8.9% West European Crusader (Outremer) – SI-40 @ 0.013972
14. 40.5% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 40.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 18.7% Pannonian Basin (Avar period) – SZ1 @ 0.013984
15. 43.2% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 36.5% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 20.3% Central Italian (Papal States) – RMPR1287 @ 0.014006
16. 50.6% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 42.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 6.5% Sardinia (Early Middle Ages) – COR002 @ 0.014039
17. 50.8% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 42.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 6.4% Sardinia (Early Middle Ages) – COR001 @ 0.014084
18. 43.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 9.2% Celt (Britain) – 6DT3 + 46.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.014101
19. 10.4% Longobard (Szolad) – SZ2 + 41.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 47.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.014118
20. 49.0% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 13.1% Roman, Sardinian profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR104 + 37.9% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.014134

vasil
11-05-2020, 11:19 PM
Mixed Mode, 300-1500 AD

Bulgarian average

Single Population Approximation List:
1. Pannonian Basin (Middle Ages) – DA199 @ 0.045989
2. Pannonian Basin (Avar period) – SZ1 @ 0.046650
3. Germanic (Bavaria) – AED_1135 @ 0.052131
4. Visigoth (Iberia) – I12163 @ 0.053140
5. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR36 @ 0.054448
6. Central Italian (Papal States) – RMPR1287 @ 0.059291
7. Roman (Bavaria) – FN_2 @ 0.059647
8. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR121 @ 0.060274
9. Visigoth (Iberia) – I12162 @ 0.060351
10. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10853 @ 0.061224
11. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10895 @ 0.061233
12. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10892 @ 0.061480
13. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 @ 0.061705
14. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10852 @ 0.063218
15. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR120 @ 0.065778
16. Central Italian (Carolingian period) – RMPR1283 @ 0.066077
17. West European Crusader (Outremer) – SI-47 @ 0.066487
18. Germanic (Bavaria) – STR_220 @ 0.066789
19. Longobard (Szolad) – SZ42 @ 0.067067
20. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR118 @ 0.067259

2-Population Approximation List:
1. 51.7% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 48.3% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.015762
2. 44.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 55.9% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.016115
3. 48.4% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 51.6% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.017036
4. 43.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 + 56.1% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.017344
5. 53.2% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 + 46.8% Early Slav (Bohemia) – RISE569 @ 0.017723
6. 50.5% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 49.5% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 @ 0.017895
7. 45.2% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 + 54.8% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.018091
8. 48.6% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 51.4% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 @ 0.018153
9. 43.6% Izjaslav Ingvarevych (Rurikid dynasty) – VK541 + 56.4% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR121 @ 0.018296
10. 44.1% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 55.9% South Italian (Viking Age) – VK537 @ 0.018378
11. 51.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 48.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 @ 0.018647
12. 47.3% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 52.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 @ 0.019089
13. 54.9% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 + 45.1% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.019131
14. 42.6% Estonia (Middle Ages) – s19_IIf_1 + 57.4% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 @ 0.019144
15. 56.1% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 43.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR130 @ 0.019189
16. 37.5% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 62.5% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR36 @ 0.019297
17. 49.7% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 50.3% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR134 @ 0.019538
18. 40.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 59.1% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 @ 0.019588
19. 39.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR130 + 60.3% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.019592
20. 42.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR134 + 57.2% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.019614

3-Population Approximation List:
1. 45.7% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 32.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 22.2% Central Italian (Papal States) – RMPR1287 @ 0.011514
2. 51.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 14.9% Sardinia (Early Middle Ages) – COR001 + 33.2% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.011837
3. 51.6% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 14.9% Sardinia (Early Middle Ages) – COR002 + 33.5% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.012293
4. 39.8% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 44.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 15.4% West European Crusader (Outremer) – SI-39 @ 0.012754
5. 48.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 39.6% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 11.5% Sardinia (Middle Ages) – SNN003 @ 0.013024
6. 35.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 47.7% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 + 16.6% Pannonian Basin (Avar period) – SZ1 @ 0.013652
7. 41.1% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 11.5% Scandinavian (Viking Age) – VK393 + 47.4% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013868
8. 41.0% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 12.1% Scandinavian (Viking Age) – vik_stg021 + 46.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013874
9. 44.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 8.5% Pict (Viking Age) – VK201 + 46.6% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013881
10. 40.7% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 12.2% Scandinavian (Viking Age) – VK290 + 47.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013913
11. 43.8% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 9.4% Pict (Viking Age) – VK203 + 46.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013922
12. 48.0% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 34.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 17.9% Central Italian (Carolingian period) – RMPR1283 @ 0.013944
13. 47.1% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 44.0% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 8.9% West European Crusader (Outremer) – SI-40 @ 0.013972
14. 40.5% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 40.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 18.7% Pannonian Basin (Avar period) – SZ1 @ 0.013984
15. 43.2% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 36.5% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 20.3% Central Italian (Papal States) – RMPR1287 @ 0.014006
16. 50.6% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 42.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 6.5% Sardinia (Early Middle Ages) – COR002 @ 0.014039
17. 50.8% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 42.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 6.4% Sardinia (Early Middle Ages) – COR001 @ 0.014084
18. 43.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 9.2% Celt (Britain) – 6DT3 + 46.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.014101
19. 10.4% Longobard (Szolad) – SZ2 + 41.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 47.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.014118
20. 49.0% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 13.1% Roman, Sardinian profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR104 + 37.9% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.014134

Can you run me?
Vasil,0.0108,0.0131,0.0078,0.0016,0.0105,0.0003,0. 0035,0.0034,-0.0013,0.0001,0.0005,-0.0023,0.0041,0.0102,-0.0139,-0.0029,0.0074,-0.0008,0.0028,0.0039,-0.0082,-0.0022,0.0036,-0.0011,-0.0015
Vasil_scaled,0.122929,0.133034,0.029415,0.005168,0 .032314,0.000837,0.008225,0.007846,-0.002659,0.000182,0.000812,-0.003447,0.006095,0.014038,-0.018865,-0.003845,0.009648,-0.001014,0.00352,0.004877,-0.010232,-0.00272,0.004437,-0.001325,-0.001796

CyrylBojarski
11-05-2020, 11:21 PM
Bessarabian Bulgarians?

No, from there

https://i.imgur.com/J9YrWHx.png

xripkan
11-05-2020, 11:21 PM
Mixed Mode, 300-1500 AD

Bulgarian average

Single Population Approximation List:
1. Pannonian Basin (Middle Ages) – DA199 @ 0.045989
2. Pannonian Basin (Avar period) – SZ1 @ 0.046650
3. Germanic (Bavaria) – AED_1135 @ 0.052131
4. Visigoth (Iberia) – I12163 @ 0.053140
5. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR36 @ 0.054448
6. Central Italian (Papal States) – RMPR1287 @ 0.059291
7. Roman (Bavaria) – FN_2 @ 0.059647
8. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR121 @ 0.060274
9. Visigoth (Iberia) – I12162 @ 0.060351
10. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10853 @ 0.061224
11. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10895 @ 0.061233
12. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10892 @ 0.061480
13. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 @ 0.061705
14. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10852 @ 0.063218
15. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR120 @ 0.065778
16. Central Italian (Carolingian period) – RMPR1283 @ 0.066077
17. West European Crusader (Outremer) – SI-47 @ 0.066487
18. Germanic (Bavaria) – STR_220 @ 0.066789
19. Longobard (Szolad) – SZ42 @ 0.067067
20. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR118 @ 0.067259

2-Population Approximation List:
1. 51.7% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 48.3% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.015762
2. 44.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 55.9% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.016115
3. 48.4% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 51.6% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.017036
4. 43.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 + 56.1% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.017344
5. 53.2% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 + 46.8% Early Slav (Bohemia) – RISE569 @ 0.017723
6. 50.5% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 49.5% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 @ 0.017895
7. 45.2% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 + 54.8% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.018091
8. 48.6% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 51.4% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 @ 0.018153
9. 43.6% Izjaslav Ingvarevych (Rurikid dynasty) – VK541 + 56.4% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR121 @ 0.018296
10. 44.1% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 55.9% South Italian (Viking Age) – VK537 @ 0.018378
11. 51.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 48.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 @ 0.018647
12. 47.3% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 52.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 @ 0.019089
13. 54.9% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 + 45.1% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.019131
14. 42.6% Estonia (Middle Ages) – s19_IIf_1 + 57.4% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 @ 0.019144
15. 56.1% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 43.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR130 @ 0.019189
16. 37.5% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 62.5% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR36 @ 0.019297
17. 49.7% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 50.3% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR134 @ 0.019538
18. 40.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 59.1% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 @ 0.019588
19. 39.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR130 + 60.3% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.019592
20. 42.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR134 + 57.2% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.019614

3-Population Approximation List:
1. 45.7% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 32.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 22.2% Central Italian (Papal States) – RMPR1287 @ 0.011514
2. 51.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 14.9% Sardinia (Early Middle Ages) – COR001 + 33.2% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.011837
3. 51.6% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 14.9% Sardinia (Early Middle Ages) – COR002 + 33.5% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.012293
4. 39.8% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 44.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 15.4% West European Crusader (Outremer) – SI-39 @ 0.012754
5. 48.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 39.6% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 11.5% Sardinia (Middle Ages) – SNN003 @ 0.013024
6. 35.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 47.7% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 + 16.6% Pannonian Basin (Avar period) – SZ1 @ 0.013652
7. 41.1% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 11.5% Scandinavian (Viking Age) – VK393 + 47.4% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013868
8. 41.0% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 12.1% Scandinavian (Viking Age) – vik_stg021 + 46.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013874
9. 44.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 8.5% Pict (Viking Age) – VK201 + 46.6% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013881
10. 40.7% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 12.2% Scandinavian (Viking Age) – VK290 + 47.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013913
11. 43.8% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 9.4% Pict (Viking Age) – VK203 + 46.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.013922
12. 48.0% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 34.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 17.9% Central Italian (Carolingian period) – RMPR1283 @ 0.013944
13. 47.1% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 44.0% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 8.9% West European Crusader (Outremer) – SI-40 @ 0.013972
14. 40.5% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 40.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 18.7% Pannonian Basin (Avar period) – SZ1 @ 0.013984
15. 43.2% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 36.5% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 20.3% Central Italian (Papal States) – RMPR1287 @ 0.014006
16. 50.6% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 42.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 6.5% Sardinia (Early Middle Ages) – COR002 @ 0.014039
17. 50.8% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 42.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 6.4% Sardinia (Early Middle Ages) – COR001 @ 0.014084
18. 43.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 9.2% Celt (Britain) – 6DT3 + 46.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.014101
19. 10.4% Longobard (Szolad) – SZ2 + 41.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 47.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.014118
20. 49.0% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 13.1% Roman, Sardinian profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR104 + 37.9% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.014134

This is exactly what I mean, Bulgarians can be modeled as Byzantine+Slavs+Western Iranics. Sz1 is a proxy for a Western Iranic ancestry.

Alkaevli
11-05-2020, 11:29 PM
Can you run me?
Vasil,0.0108,0.0131,0.0078,0.0016,0.0105,0.0003,0. 0035,0.0034,-0.0013,0.0001,0.0005,-0.0023,0.0041,0.0102,-0.0139,-0.0029,0.0074,-0.0008,0.0028,0.0039,-0.0082,-0.0022,0.0036,-0.0011,-0.0015
Vasil_scaled,0.122929,0.133034,0.029415,0.005168,0 .032314,0.000837,0.008225,0.007846,-0.002659,0.000182,0.000812,-0.003447,0.006095,0.014038,-0.018865,-0.003845,0.009648,-0.001014,0.00352,0.004877,-0.010232,-0.00272,0.004437,-0.001325,-0.001796

Single Population Approximation List:
1. Pannonian Basin (Middle Ages) – DA199 @ 0.051097
2. Germanic (Bavaria) – AED_1135 @ 0.054925
3. Visigoth (Iberia) – I12163 @ 0.056055
4. Pannonian Basin (Avar period) – SZ1 @ 0.056078
5. Visigoth (Iberia) – I12162 @ 0.064921
6. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR36 @ 0.065179
7. Early Slav (Bohemia) – RISE569 @ 0.066329
8. Roman (Bavaria) – FN_2 @ 0.066627
9. Germanic (Bavaria) – STR_220 @ 0.067118
10. Izjaslav Ingvarevych (Rurikid dynasty) – VK541 @ 0.068382
11. Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.069042
12. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 @ 0.069475
13. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10895 @ 0.069830
14. Longobard (Szolad) – SZ42 @ 0.070148
15. Longobard (Szolad) – SZ24 @ 0.070167
16. Central Italian (Papal States) – RMPR1287 @ 0.070466
17. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10852 @ 0.070596
18. Iberia (Middle Ages) – I10892 @ 0.071177
19. West European Crusader (Outremer) – SI-47 @ 0.071547
20. Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR121 @ 0.071554

2-Population Approximation List:
1. 55.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 44.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.016012
2. 58.9% Izjaslav Ingvarevych (Rurikid dynasty) – VK541 + 41.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 @ 0.017675
3. 56.0% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 44.0% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 @ 0.017768
4. 54.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 45.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 @ 0.018104
5. 60.0% Izjaslav Ingvarevych (Rurikid dynasty) – VK541 + 40.0% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 @ 0.018425
6. 51.3% Slav (Viking Age) – VK212 + 48.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.019302
7. 50.4% Izjaslav Ingvarevych (Rurikid dynasty) – VK541 + 49.6% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 @ 0.019971
8. 57.1% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 42.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR134 @ 0.020294
9. 60.0% Izjaslav Ingvarevych (Rurikid dynasty) – VK541 + 40.0% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.020336
10. 46.3% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 53.7% Roman (Late Antiquity) – RMPR107 @ 0.020711
11. 51.5% Slav (Viking Age) – VK139 + 48.5% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.021320
12. 61.2% Izjaslav Ingvarevych (Rurikid dynasty) – VK541 + 38.8% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR134 @ 0.021421
13. 40.2% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 59.8% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.021436
14. 43.8% Balt (Viking Age) – VK475 + 56.2% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 @ 0.021442
15. 40.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 + 59.9% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.021561
16. 44.9% Balt (Viking Age) – VK475 + 55.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 @ 0.021563
17. 49.6% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 50.4% South Italian (Viking Age) – VK537 @ 0.021593
18. 46.3% South Italian (Viking Age) – VK537 + 53.7% Izjaslav Ingvarevych (Rurikid dynasty) – VK541 @ 0.021783
19. 52.3% Izjaslav Ingvarevych (Rurikid dynasty) – VK541 + 47.7% Central Italian (Carolingian period) – RMPR1283 @ 0.021811
20. 53.6% Slav (Viking Age) – VK340 + 46.4% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 @ 0.021855

3-Population Approximation List:
1. 54.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 17.5% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR30 + 27.6% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.014492
2. 55.5% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 27.6% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 16.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 @ 0.014986
3. 53.7% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 35.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 10.6% Central Italian (Carolingian period) – RMPR1283 @ 0.015425
4. 55.8% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 33.3% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 10.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR134 @ 0.015430
5. 54.6% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 40.0% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 5.4% Sardinia (Middle Ages) – SNN003 @ 0.015454
6. 54.0% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 39.0% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 7.0% Central Italian (Papal States) – RMPR1287 @ 0.015664
7. 55.4% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 41.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 2.9% Sardinia (Middle Ages) – SNN004 @ 0.015798
8. 55.5% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 42.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 2.4% Sardinia (Early Middle Ages) – COR002 @ 0.015801
9. 55.6% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 42.3% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 2.1% Sardinia (Early Middle Ages) – COR001 @ 0.015847
10. 56.1% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 40.5% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 3.4% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR130 @ 0.015941
11. 51.5% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 43.7% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 4.8% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av1 @ 0.015968
12. 56.0% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 43.4% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 0.6% Levantine (Middle Ages) – SI-42 @ 0.016006
13. 55.9% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 43.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 1.0% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.016007
14. 0.5% Early Slav (Szolad) – Av2 + 55.3% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 44.2% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.016012
15. 55.5% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 44.0% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 0.5% West European Crusader (Outremer) – SI-39 @ 0.016013
16. 55.4% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 0.5% Slav (Viking Age) – VK340 + 44.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.016014
17. 55.4% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 0.5% Scandinavian (Viking Age) – VK393 + 44.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.016033
18. 55.4% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 0.5% Scandinavian (Viking Age) – VK290 + 44.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.016038
19. 55.4% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 0.5% Scandinavian (Viking Age) – VK281 + 44.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.016045
20. 55.4% Slav (Sunghir) – Sunghir6 + 0.5% Scandinavian (Iron Age) – VK522 + 44.1% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.016045

Alkaevli
11-05-2020, 11:36 PM
This is exactly what I mean, Bulgarians can be modeled as Byzantine+Slavs+Western Iranics. Sz1 is a proxy for a Western Iranic ancestry.

SZ1 has 5-6% East Eurasian ancestry and is likely an Avar-admixed native Pannonian.

xripkan
11-05-2020, 11:40 PM
SZ1 has 5-6% East Eurasian ancestry and is likely an Avar-admixed native Pannonian.

I know that. I am just saying it could be a proxy for European Scythian ancestry. My question is clear, I posted it above. If Proto-Bulgars were Turkic similar to Central Asia Turkic group even an input 10-15% would make Bulgarians similar to Balakn Turks. However Bulgarians score some traces of East Eurasian, definitely less than 1%.
Isn't it more plausible they were a Western Iranic group with the genetic profile I described above?

Sorcelow
11-05-2020, 11:47 PM
Wouldn't something like this make more sense? Bulgarians don't require any Siberian admixture, and there was likely a continuous stream of Anatolian ancestry throughout each period of time, in my opinion.

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1046% / 0.01104552
49.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
17.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
14.2 UKR_Cimmerian_o
14.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
5.0 Levant_Beirut_ERoman


I'm not using BGR_IA because I find that I obtain better fits without it, but the sum of Empuries2 and Cimmerian_o can serve as a proxy for the IA inhabitants of Bulgaria.

Alkaevli
11-05-2020, 11:51 PM
I know that. I am just saying it could be a proxy for European Scythian ancestry. My question is clear, I posted it above. If Proto-Bulgars were Turkic similar to Central Asia Turkic group even an input 10-15% would make Bulgarians similar to Balakn Turks. However Bulgarians score some traces of East Eurasian, definitely less than 1%.
Isn't it more plausible they were a Western Iranic group with the genetic profile I described above?
I agree with this part. 10-15% Medieval CA Turkic admixture roughly corresponds to 4-7% East Eurasian admixture, which is not what we see in modern Bulgarians. The Bulgars might have arrived in the Balkans as a more West Eurasian-admixed population than Medieval CA Turkic populations though.

A dozen of Bulgar samples from the Pontic Steppe would settle the matter.

xripkan
11-06-2020, 12:06 AM
I agree with this part. 10-15% Medieval CA Turkic admixture roughly corresponds to 4-7% East Eurasian admixture, which is not what we see in modern Bulgarians. The Bulgars might have arrived in the Balkans as a more West Eurasian-admixed population than Medieval CA Turkic populations though.

A dozen of Bulgar samples from the Pontic Steppe would settle the matter.

This is also a possible scenario. They could be a group of nomads with mixed background (Caucasian,Iranic,Finno-Ugric,Slavic etc) inclunding a Turkic minority (maybe their elite was Turkic).

eastara
11-06-2020, 02:04 AM
In 1920s, my Bulgarian ancestors lived in USSR for 200 years

Ha, I knew it, you are describing USSR, and have no knowledge of Bulgarian realities. I am very confident in claiming that Bulgarians did not mix with Jews until Communist times with very rare exceptions after 1878. So Bulgarians may not scratch their heads how they may have Jewish ancestry shown on FTDNA, or some other calculators. Those Bulgarians who have real Jewish admixture know about that as it is very recent.

Amerismed
11-06-2020, 04:14 AM
Indeed, I noticed that there was also some matching of the Mycenaean with samples from Bulgaria.

Johnny ola
11-06-2020, 06:23 AM
I thought Damgaard's paper made it clear that the medieval Central Asian Turkic genetic profile was not Korean-like. Why do you keep repeating this old myth? Most of the medieval Turkic samples from Kazakhstan have less than 50% East Eurasian ancestry.

Based on ~600 samples of our project, ethnic Turks of Anatolia have 10% East Eurasian (Mongoloid) admixture on average. Balkan Turks have less than that. The level of Central Asian admixture in Anatolian Turks is a different story.

East Eurasian admixture decreases from west to east.

ADMIXTURE CALCULATOR:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JEezl8YoZjOoNqnMoha9sWdMsvIwYYmV5ccljTkhryQ/edit?usp=sharing

GLOBAL25:
Target: Turkish_Northwest
Distance: 1.4479% / 0.01447858
53.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
22.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.4 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave
10.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 1.5214% / 0.01521397
49.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
19.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
17.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
13.4 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave

Target: Turkish_South
Distance: 0.9664% / 0.00966422
36.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
31.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
18.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.4 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave

Target: Turkish_North
Distance: 1.3688% / 0.01368812
47.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
17.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
14.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
12.0 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave

Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 1.1867% / 0.01186722
43.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
31.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
16.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.8 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave

Target: Turkish_East
Distance: 0.9225% / 0.00922471
48.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
26.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
14.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
3.6 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave

Target: Turkish_Trabzon
Distance: 1.7261% / 0.01726144
47.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
39.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
9.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
3.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



False. We have samples both from medieval Turkic peoples of Central Asia (Damgaard et al.) and Anatolian Greeks, so it is not difficult to model modern Anatolian Turks. The Oghuz/Turkmens started migrating into Anatolia in late 11th century AD from West Central Asia, but not in the form of Proto-Turks whose precise genetic profile is still unknown.

The level of Central Asian ancestry varies from west to east across Anatolia.

Global25 nMonte
Reference: KAZ_Karluk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karluks)
https://abload.de/img/adszkakk6.png
https://abload.de/img/adsz2ttkln.png

Reference: KAZ_Karakhanid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara-Khanid_Khanate)
https://abload.de/img/a148kay.png
https://abload.de/img/a22vjze.png

Reference: KAZ_Turk
https://abload.de/img/b12ik0k.png
https://abload.de/img/b2lpjx5.png

https://abload.de/img/newpca2yjsr.png

Global mixed mode method also confirms the nMonte models above. You can't model Turks as a mix of Anatolian Greeks and a fully East Eurasian population, it simply won't work.

300-1500 AD samples

Turkish_Central

Single Population Approximation List:
1. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA160 @ 0.053836
2. Crimea (Ostrogothic period) – KER_1 @ 0.056397
3. West Iranian (Middle Ages) – I1955 @ 0.058265
4. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA164 @ 0.066898
5. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA243 @ 0.069780
6. Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.073284
7. Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.082287
8. Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR134 @ 0.083208
9. Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 @ 0.083836
10. South Italian (Viking Age) – VK537 @ 0.085230

2-Population Approximation List:
1. 28.5% Early Turk (Central Steppe) – DA89 + 71.5% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.015938
2. 21.3% Karakhanid – DA204 + 78.7% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.019708
3. 40.6% Medieval Turk (Anatolia) – MA2196 + 59.4% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.019941
4. 22.4% Nomad (Karluk period) – DA126 + 77.6% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.020151
5. 73.8% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 + 26.2% Orkhon Uyghur (Eastern Steppe) – OLN012 @ 0.020911
6. 22.4% Karluk – DA230 + 77.6% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.021929
7. 21.3% Karluk – DA222 + 78.7% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.022209
8. 33.3% Kipchak – DA179 + 66.7% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.022227
9. 20.9% Karakhanid – DA203 + 79.1% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.022553
10. 78.1% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 + 21.9% Orkhon Uyghur (Eastern Steppe) – OLN009 @ 0.022789


Turkish_Southwest

Single Population Approximation List:
1. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA160 @ 0.073398
2. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA164 @ 0.075162
3. Medieval Turk (Anatolia) – MA2196 @ 0.077212
4. Crimea (Ostrogothic period) – KER_1 @ 0.078173
5. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA243 @ 0.079280
6. West Iranian (Middle Ages) – I1955 @ 0.083718
7. East Iranic (Eastern Steppe) – OLN003 @ 0.087587
8. Pannonian Basin (Avar period) – SZ1 @ 0.093925
9. Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 @ 0.100131
10. Hun–Gepid – VIM_2 @ 0.101136

2-Population Approximation List:
1. 60.6% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 39.4% Early Turk (Central Steppe) – DA89 @ 0.018856
2. 39.8% Early Turk (Central Steppe) – DA89 + 60.2% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.019613
3. 43.2% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR133 + 56.8% Medieval Turk (Anatolia) – MA2196 @ 0.020264
4. 58.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 + 41.1% Early Turk (Central Steppe) – DA89 @ 0.020392
5. 62.9% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 + 37.1% Orkhon Uyghur (Eastern Steppe) – OLN012 @ 0.021460
6. 57.3% Medieval Turk (Anatolia) – MA2196 + 42.7% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.021550
7. 31.5% Nomad (Karluk period) – DA126 + 68.5% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.022290
8. 58.9% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR134 + 41.1% Early Turk (Central Steppe) – DA89 @ 0.022324
9. 41.3% Roman, East Mediterranean profile (Late Antiquity) – RMPR34 + 58.7% Medieval Turk (Anatolia) – MA2196 @ 0.022333
10. 47.3% Kipchak – DA179 + 52.7% Anatolian Greek (Roopkund) – I6935 @ 0.022471




1000-300 AD samples

Turkish_Central

Single Population Approximation List:
1. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA162 @ 0.053740
2. Mannaean – F38 @ 0.070679
3. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR1548 @ 0.076684
4. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR1544 @ 0.076972
5. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR114 @ 0.080742
6. Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR72 @ 0.085756
7. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR835 @ 0.085757
8. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR47 @ 0.087536
9. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR131 @ 0.089172
10. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR51 @ 0.089297

2-Population Approximation List:
1. 73.4% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 26.6% Xiongnu, Central Asian profile – DA38 @ 0.024593
2. 75.1% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 24.9% Xiongnu, Central Asian profile – SKT005 @ 0.026231
3. 59.4% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR72 + 40.6% Kushan – I12294 @ 0.026280
4. 56.2% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR78 + 43.8% Kushan – I12294 @ 0.027081
5. 69.6% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 30.4% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA73 @ 0.027272
6. 66.0% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 34.0% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA69 @ 0.027396
7. 65.6% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 34.4% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA101 @ 0.027427
8. 68.9% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 31.1% Tarim Basin (Iron Age) – M820 @ 0.027836
9. 71.9% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 28.1% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA385 @ 0.028127
10. 70.6% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 29.4% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA100 @ 0.028317


Turkish_Southwest

Single Population Approximation List:
1. Alan (North Caucasus) – DA162 @ 0.070540
2. Western Scythian – scy311 @ 0.082193
3. Western Scythian – scy301 @ 0.085392
4. Kangju – DA206 @ 0.089998
5. Mannaean – F38 @ 0.092949
6. Western Scythian – scy011 @ 0.095306
7. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR1544 @ 0.095960
8. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR1548 @ 0.097029
9. Geto-Thracian – scy305 @ 0.099020
10. Roman (Imperial) – RMPR835 @ 0.100869

2-Population Approximation List:
1. 65.3% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 34.7% Xiongnu, Central Asian profile – DA38 @ 0.022735
2. 63.8% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR72 + 36.2% Saka (Tian Shan) – DA50 @ 0.023221
3. 67.4% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR72 + 32.6% Xiongnu, Central Asian profile – DA38 @ 0.023283
4. 55.2% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 44.8% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA69 @ 0.023331
5. 58.2% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 41.8% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA72 @ 0.023524
6. 57.4% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR72 + 42.6% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA69 @ 0.023560
7. 60.0% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 40.0% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA73 @ 0.023582
8. 64.1% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 35.9% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA54 @ 0.023658
9. 61.7% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR71 + 38.3% Saka (Tian Shan) – DA50 @ 0.023874
10. 57.2% Roman, Anatolian profile (Imperial) – RMPR72 + 42.8% Hun (Tian Shan) – DA101 @ 0.024110

I know well how Turks entered Anatolia. Their genes decreased when they come in contact with the native Anatolian folks after the battle of Mazinkert who most of Anatolia come under Turkoman influence. The Turks were not that numerous to pass their genes to the whole population. Also the highest east Eurasian genetic make up in modern Turkey is founded in the western parts of Anatolia and it has to do because the warrior clans of Turks used to settled in the lands closer to their enemies(Byzantines and Venetians), so they can control the area better. Also the Ottoman dynasty played a role since the empire have become quite multicultural so the east Eurasian genes decreased even more. Modern Turkey does not have the genetic make up of central asians and its well kown. Not that of Tatars. Azeris are also a similar situation.

Alkaevli
11-06-2020, 07:45 AM
I know well how Turks entered Anatolia. Their genes decreased when they come in contact with the native Anatolian folks after the battle of Mazinkert who most of Anatolia come under Turkoman influence. The Turks were not that numerous to pass their genes to the whole population. Also the highest east Eurasian genetic make up in modern Turkey is founded in the western parts of Anatolia and it has to do because the warrior clans of Turks used to settled in the lands closer to their enemies(Byzantines and Venetians), so they can control the area better. Also the Ottoman dynasty played a role since the empire have become quite multicultural so the east Eurasian genes decreased even more. Modern Turkey does not have the genetic make up of central asians and its well kown. Not that of Tatars. Azeris are also a similar situation.

Ethnic Turks of Turkey are more Anatolian than Central Asian, the models in my post also confirm that. That's not the point.

You said "Not even Turks from modern Turkey are 10-15% Turkic admixed," which is false.

Johnny ola
11-06-2020, 08:02 AM
Ethnic Turks of Turkey are more Anatolian than Central Asian, the models in my post also confirm that. That's not the point.

You said "Not even Turks from modern Turkey are 10-15% Turkic admixed," which is false.

I was talking about the averages.There are specific areas/provinces who are more than 12-15% and sometimes can reach even more.Also it depends individual.In general Western Turkey is much more Turkoman compared to other provinces.Sivas for example is not more than 8-10% and i bet you autosomal either is not more than 7-8% east eurasian.

CyrylBojarski
11-06-2020, 12:24 PM
Ha, I knew it, you are describing USSR, and have no knowledge of Bulgarian realities. I am very confident in claiming that Bulgarians did not mix with Jews until Communist times with very rare exceptions after 1878. So Bulgarians may not scratch their heads how they may have Jewish ancestry shown on FTDNA, or some other calculators. Those Bulgarians who have real Jewish admixture know about that as it is very recent.

What are your 23andme results after update? I have a bit more than 1% Anatolian, which can be Turkish and this proves Bulgarians mixed with Turks, but I am not sure if it is from Bulgarian side

Riverman
11-06-2020, 12:27 PM
What are your 23andme results after update? I have a bit more than 1% Anatolian, which can be Turkish and this proves Bulgarians mixed with Turks, but I am not sure if it is from Bulgarian side

It could be ancient though.

CyrylBojarski
11-06-2020, 12:30 PM
It could be ancient though.

I do not think it is, If I was full Bulgarian it is possible, but when I am 87% Eastern Europe and 13% Southern, that means my great grandfather has about 10% of it, it is a lot

23abc
11-06-2020, 12:46 PM
I do not think it is, If I was full Bulgarian it is possible, but when I am 87% Eastern Europe and 13% Southern, that means my great grandfather has about 10% of it, it is a lot

You need to stop obsessing over small percentages like they confirm anything. Anatolian is very easy to score in the Balkans area at a small percentage. Southern Italians also score it, do you think they had any super recent Anatolian admixture?

Also, I've seen a Balkan Turk score 70% Anatolian + 30% Greek & Balkan and their child scores close to 100% Anatolian and 0% Greek & Balkan. And I know another Turk who on v5.2 scored 20% Greek & Balkan, and on v5.9 it changed into 10% East European + Anatolian. What that means is that the Anatolian category itself has Greek & Balkan inside it, along with Central Asian and actual Anatolian of course. Scoring it doesn't mean you have Turkish admixture, as there are many people without any Central Asian who also score it.

By the way, have you tested one of your parents on 23andMe? I think you keep making assumptions about which side your admixture is coming from because unless you have verified it with an immediate relative (best a parent) it's actually not certain.

CyrylBojarski
11-06-2020, 12:49 PM
You need to stop obsessing over small percentages like they confirm anything. Anatolian is very easy to score in the Balkans area at a small percentage. Southern Italians also score it, do you think they had any super recent Anatolian admixture?

Also, I've seen a Balkan Turk score 70% Anatolian + 30% Greek & Balkan and their child scores close to 100% Anatolian and 0% Greek & Balkan. And I know another Turk who on v5.2 scored 20% Greek & Balkan, and on v5.9 it changed into 10% East European + Anatolian. What that means is that the Anatolian category itself has Greek & Balkan inside it, along with Central Asian and actual Anatolian of course. Scoring it doesn't mean you have Turkish admixture, as there are many people without any Central Asian who also score it.

By the way, have you tested one of your parents on 23andMe? I think you keep making assumptions about which side your admixture is coming from because unless you have verified it with an immediate relative (best a parent) it's actually not certain.

I did not see other Balkanites ( except Greek Islanders ) scoring this. I confirmed all my ethnicities through matches on Gedmatch, but this Anatolian segment has 2 matches, they are from Middle East

23abc
11-06-2020, 01:10 PM
I did not see other Balkanites scoring this. I confirmed all my ethnicities through matches on Gedmatch, but this Anatolian segment has 2 matches, they are from Middle East

I do not want to venture off topic any longer, (E-V13 in Bulgarian Iron Age), but I will tell you this. Through my mother's unknown ancestry I have a few (4-5) distant matches from Bulgaria and North Macedonia. Some do score 100% Greek & Balkan, but those who don't have small Anatolian/Iranian percentages. The vast majority of my ancestry is unrelated to the Balkans and yet I still managed to find these matches. I wonder how it's possible you haven't found any with such % with I'm assuming a much larger amount of Balkans matches than me? Either way, even scoring those percentages does not mean anything. I've seen people in the middle of Europe score small percentages like Somali when it's obviously impossible. Admixture tests don't have anything near the perfect accuracy you seem to think they do.

Also, it's pretty much impossible to confirm which segment of DNA came from which parent without phasing. For all you know, the Ashkenazi segment could be on your Slavic side and all your assumptions so far are completely off. If it's possible to test a parent, do so, and phase with them. Only then does the chromosome painting actually produce correct output.

CyrylBojarski
11-06-2020, 01:21 PM
I do not want to venture off topic any longer, (E-V13 in Bulgarian Iron Age), but I will tell you this. Through my mother's unknown ancestry I have a few (4-5) distant matches from Bulgaria and North Macedonia. Some do score 100% Greek & Balkan, but those who don't have small Anatolian/Iranian percentages. The vast majority of my ancestry is unrelated to the Balkans and yet I still managed to find these matches. I wonder how it's possible you haven't found any with such % with I'm assuming a much larger amount of Balkans matches than me? Either way, even scoring those percentages does not mean anything. I've seen people in the middle of Europe score small percentages like Somali when it's obviously impossible. Admixture tests don't have anything near the perfect accuracy you seem to think they do.

Also, it's pretty much impossible to confirm which segment of DNA came from which parent without phasing. For all you know, the Ashkenazi segment could be on your Slavic side and all your assumptions so far are completely off. If it's possible to test a parent, do so, and phase with them. Only then does the chromosome painting actually produce correct output.

I did not find because I do not have Balkan matches, Bulgarians are untested, but I saw a lot of Bulgarian results on 23andme on Reddit. No, it is easy for me to tell from which side. I have very accurate split 87% / 13% on 23andme which match with known ancestry. If I have Greek and Balkan and Ashkenazi in one chromosome, that is clear from which side it is. I will test parent this year, but I am sure that does not change anything about it. And I do not know about what my assupmptions are you about?

Alkaevli
11-06-2020, 01:52 PM
I was talking about the averages.There are specific areas/provinces who are more than 12-15% and sometimes can reach even more.Also it depends individual.In general Western Turkey is much more Turkoman compared to other provinces.Sivas for example is not more than 8-10% and i bet you autosomal either is not more than 7-8% east eurasian.
Apples and oranges. By Central Asian, I mean Medieval Central Asian Turkic genetic profile, not East Eurasian. Why do you think Turkish_Balikesir with 13% East Eurasian admixture get ~30% Medieval Central Asian Turkic?

Target: Turkish_Balikesir
Distance: 1.5148% / 0.01514767
35.0 Greek_Kos
34.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
17.4 KAZ_Kimak
13.0 KAZ_Karluk
0.0 KAZ_Karakhanid

My father is from Sivas, not my mother.

Target: Father_scaled
Distance: 2.6680% / 0.02668023
34.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
28.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
15.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
8.4 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave
2.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA

Helves
11-06-2020, 02:29 PM
Anatolian Turks require an Iranian plateau source, the fit improves significantly.

Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 1.0135% / 0.01013484
59.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
23.2 Iranian_Zoroastrian
17.8 TUR_Ottoman:MA2195

Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 1.9694% / 0.01969421
78.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
21.2 TUR_Ottoman:MA2195

Note that the Zoroastrians in Davids spreadsheet can be modelled with less than 1% MA Turkish.

Sorcelow
11-06-2020, 03:03 PM
Anatolian Turks require an Iranian plateu source, the fit improves significantly.

Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 1.0135% / 0.01013484
59.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
23.2 Iranian_Zoroastrian
17.8 TUR_Ottoman:MA2195

Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 1.9694% / 0.01969421
78.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
21.2 TUR_Ottoman:MA2195

Note that the Zoroastrians in Davids spreadsheet can be modelled with less than 1% MA Turkish.

Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 1.1436% / 0.01143612
67.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
33.0 Turkmen

I think the need to add an Iranian population is diminished if you include Turkmens as the source for Turkic ancestry in Turkey.

Helves
11-06-2020, 03:17 PM
Target: Turkish_Central
Distance: 1.1436% / 0.01143612
67.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
33.0 Turkmen

I think the need to add an Iranian population is diminished if you include Turkmens as the source for Turkic ancestry in Turkey.

Well Turkmens have recent Iranian plateau ancestry but the Ottoman era sample(MA2195) strangely does not.

Johnny ola
11-06-2020, 04:42 PM
@Alkaevi

I never said that modern Turks do not have Turkoman admixture.I am clearly saying, it is not everywhere so high as you claim, or as you want to be. Its specific areas, provinces and individuals who getting more than 15% of this admixture who represents the Turkoman populations who arrived in Anatolia. Not all the places in Turkey are high Turkoman admixed and not all individuals have the same genes with people from Balikesir or other western provinces. In Giresun for example the Turkoman admixture is quite high because armies of Turks settled there to fight the Empire of Trebizond, so many people from this area have quite high Turkic genes but this is not everywhere in modern Turkey. My statement is simple.. the average Turkoman heritage in terms of autosomal DNA It is not more than 15-20% in the most extreme cases. Most people are between 8-13% admixed from these specific people. Also by ydna kind of view it seems these Turkoman warriors couldn't had assilimated many native lineages.. Just look how many J2a and other native Anatolians lineages exist in modern Turkey and how many lineages are associated with Turkomans. But here I have to be fair. The multicultural empire with the name Ottoman empire played a role to it. They Islamicized everyone like the Byzantine empire did. It's obvious that many lineages in Turkey coming from the balkans. I am not sure if these linesges in the northwest of bithynia-Pahlagonia have a relation with Balkan Turks or are native to the area. I am saying this because northwest Anatolia was a hotspot of Thracian tribes back in the days.

Johnny ola
11-06-2020, 05:18 PM
Apples and oranges. By Central Asian, I mean Medieval Central Asian Turkic genetic profile, not East Eurasian. Why do you think Turkish_Balikesir with 13% East Eurasian admixture get ~30% Medieval Central Asian Turkic?

Target: Turkish_Balikesir
Distance: 1.5148% / 0.01514767
35.0 Greek_Kos
34.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
17.4 KAZ_Kimak
13.0 KAZ_Karluk
0.0 KAZ_Karakhanid

My father is from Sivas, not my mother.

Target: Father_scaled
Distance: 2.6680% / 0.02668023
34.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
28.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
15.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
8.4 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave
2.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA


BTW your father's results are close to the Anatolian Turkish average.Nothing crazy in his autosomal. Most Turks are like that.Have you tested your mother?

Also keep in mind that not all the western provinces of Turkey are high Turkoman admixed. Afyon and Isparta are quite normal for example. It's the coastal areas that Turkoman admixture is very high and this has to do because as I mention above. These Turkic warriors were very good at fighting and they settled close to their enemies(Byzantines and Venetians). They did not allowed recent converts and new Islamicized folks to take the upper hand in those lands.

Alkaevli
11-06-2020, 07:37 PM
@Alkaevi

I never said that modern Turks do not have Turkoman admixture.I am clearly saying, it is not everywhere so high as you claim, or as you want to be. Its specific areas, provinces and individuals who getting more than 15% of this admixture who represents the Turkoman populations who arrived in Anatolia.
I think you don't even read my posts. You are still confusing East Eurasian (Mongoloid) admixture with Medieval Oghuz/Turkmen one. If an Anatolian Turk has 10% East Eurasian admixture, it doesn't mean he has 10% Medieval Oghuz/Turkmen ancestry. It simply doesn't work like that. Medieval Central Asian Turkic populations were a mixture between West Eurasians and East Eurasians, it is an established fact now thanks to the medieval samples from Central Asia. Proto-Turks might have emerged as a fully (or close to fully) East Eurasian population, but we are not talking about them.

A 1/2 French, 1/2 Uyghur person would likely have 20-25% East Eurasian admixture. Would that make him/her 20-25% Central Asian?



Also by ydna kind of view it seems these Turkoman warriors couldn't had assilimated many native lineages.. Just look how many J2a and other native Anatolians lineages exist in modern Turkey and how many lineages are associated with Turkomans.
What lineages are associated with Medieval Oghuz/Turkmens? Is there any Y-DNA sample from Medieval Oghuz people? Have you ever checked the Y-DNA lineages of Medieval Central Asian Turkic samples?
https://abload.de/img/adszmhkol.png



Also keep in mind that not all the western provinces of Turkey are high Turkoman admixed. Afyon and Isparta are quite normal for example. It's the coastal areas that Turkoman admixture is very high and this has to do because as I mention above.
I'm very well aware of the regional differences in Anatolia, I'm one of the co-admins of the Turkish DNA Project.

Magnetic
11-06-2020, 07:43 PM
I think you don't even read my posts. You are still confusing East Eurasian (Mongoloid) admixture with Medieval Oghuz/Turkmen one. If an Anatolian Turk has 10% East Eurasian admixture, it doesn't mean he has 10% Medieval Oghuz/Turkmen ancestry. It simply doesn't work like that. Medieval Central Asian Turkic populations were a mixture between West Eurasians and East Eurasians, it is an established fact now thanks to the medieval samples from Central Asia. Proto-Turks might have emerged as a fully (or close to fully) East Eurasian population, but we are not talking about them.



but wouldnt that mean that turkey turks are really only 10% on average turkic if the proto turks were fully or close to fully east eurasian ?

I mean it seems to be kind of like a snowball effect from the altai mountains leftwards getting more and more mixed with west eurasian etc

if the "first turks" were half west eurasian half east eurasian or something then this would change things of course

Johnny ola
11-06-2020, 08:12 PM
I think you don't even read my posts. You are still confusing East Eurasian (Mongoloid) admixture with Medieval Oghuz/Turkmen one. If an Anatolian Turk has 10% East Eurasian admixture, it doesn't mean he has 10% Medieval Oghuz/Turkmen ancestry. It simply doesn't work like that. Medieval Central Asian Turkic populations were a mixture between West Eurasians and East Eurasians, it is an established fact now thanks to the medieval samples from Central Asia. Proto-Turks might have emerged as a fully (or close to fully) East Eurasian population, but we are not talking about them.

A 1/2 French, 1/2 Uyghur person would likely have 20-25% East Eurasian admixture. Would that make him/her 20-25% Central Asian?


What lineages are associated with Medieval Oghuz/Turkmens? Is there any Y-DNA sample from Medieval Oghuz people? Have you ever checked the Y-DNA lineages of Medieval Central Asian Turkic samples?
https://abload.de/img/adszmhkol.png


I'm very well aware of the regional differences in Anatolia, I'm one of the co-admins of the Turkish DNA Project.



I am not focusing in the east eurasian genes.I told you that the Turkoman admixture in modern Turkey is not more than 15-20% and this in the 'most extreme cases'.How you modeling your father, is how exactly the average Turk is coming.I know well how Turks were in terms of 'autosomal DNA' when they enterned Anatolia.I already told you that in my above comment and ofc i am not focusing on it.My statement is clear and for the last time.The coastal parts in the west coast of Turkey can have indeed very high Turkoman admixture (yes like the samples we got) but the average Turk is not like this and most regions in Turkey will be somewhere 8-13% admixed by these people.The fact that Balikesir and some coastal parts have somewhere 15% and even more it does not mean the whole country is like this genetically.

Also keep in mind that large parts of western Anatolia non-recently-mixed native Turks are a minority, too many recent Balkan, Caucasian and other Anatolian and Kurdish immigrants live there today. Those studies that take samples only from the non-recently-mixed native Turks of western Anatolia give a wrong impression about the current genetic situation there.So,you should not generalize the situation in the western parts of modern Turkey.

As for the ydna,is it possible to tell what lineages from modern Turks have to do with Turkomans?There are many J2a,G2a,E1b1,R1b-R1a with different branches-clades that is hard to understand their origins.Yes some R1a-R1b,Q,C,N are definitely coming from Turkomans but there are many lineages and clades that look not related to them.Anyway i am not focusing in ydna and i don't care about it,its the autosomal who matters.

Alkaevli
11-06-2020, 08:32 PM
but wouldnt that mean that turkey turks are really only 10% on average turkic if the proto turks were fully or close to fully east eurasian ?

I mean it seems to be kind of like a snowball effect from the altai mountains leftwards getting more and more mixed with west eurasian etc


It doesn't matter. The Proto-Turks emerged somewhere in Asia long before the birth of Jesus. Oghuz/Turkmens on the other hand started migrating into West Asia in the 11th century AD from their homeland in what is now West Kazakhstan.

It would be unreasonable to use PIE (Steppe_EBA?) samples when estimating the Slavic input in Bulgarians for example.

Helves
11-06-2020, 08:37 PM
It doesn't matter. The Proto-Turks emerged somewhere in Asia long before the birth of Jesus. Oghuz/Turkmens on the other hand started migrating into West Asia in the 11th century AD from their homeland in what is now West Kazakhstan.

It would be unreasonable to use PIE (Steppe_EBA?) samples when estimating the Slavic input in Bulgarians for example.

That's not a logical comparison. Proto-Balto-Slavs were probably contemporary with Proto-Turks and they weren't fully Yamnaya-like.

Alkaevli
11-06-2020, 08:47 PM
That's not a logical comparison. Proto-Balto-Slavs were probably contemporary with Proto-Turks and they weren't fully Yamnaya-like.

That's why I used the word "unreasonable."

vasil
11-06-2020, 09:00 PM
This thread really went downhill:)

Johnny ola
11-06-2020, 09:12 PM
This thread really went downhill:)

This thread went very Turkish based.I am wondering if you can ask someone from the mods to delete the comments.We ruined and i have to apologize because i falled in the trap to reply to your fellow Bulgarian mate...:)

Alkaevli
11-06-2020, 09:49 PM
I am not focusing in the east eurasian genes.I told you that the Turkoman admixture in modern Turkey is not more than 15-20% and this in the 'most extreme cases'.
Care to post a nMonte model? What are you using as a proxy for Medieval Oghuz/Turkmens?

Here is an extreme case by the way. An Anatolian Turk from Bolu with ~20% East Eurasian admixture. He gets 40+% Medieval Central Asian Turkic.


Bolu_scaled,0.092197,0.020311,-0.000377,-0.025194,-0.020927,-0.011435,0.00423,0.003,-0.017794,-0.005103,-0.007795,-0.004646,0.003717,-0.003441,-0.004207,-0.006895,-0.002347,-0.002534,-0.004022,0.003126,-0.007237,-0.000247,-0.010106,0.001084,0.001437


Target: Bolu_scaled
Distance: 2.5006% / 0.02500631
48.0 Greek_Kos
43.2 KAZ_Karluk
8.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia

Target: Bolu_scaled
Distance: 2.4887% / 0.02488710
40.4 KAZ_Karakhanid
37.8 Greek_Kos
21.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia

Target: Bolu_scaled
Distance: 2.3570% / 0.02357043
53.6 KAZ_Turk
41.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
5.0 Greek_Kos

With modern Central Asians:

Target: Bolu_scaled
Distance: 2.2979% / 0.02297884
66.6 Turkmen
33.4 Greek_Kos

Target: Bolu_scaled
Distance: 2.6352% / 0.02635232
50.2 Uzbek
42.8 Greek_Kos
7.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia

Target: Bolu_scaled
Distance: 3.0998% / 0.03099822
42.6 Uygur
41.4 Greek_Kos
16.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia




The fact that Balikesir and some coastal parts have somewhere 15% and even more it does not mean the whole country is like this genetically.
Turkish_Balikesir gets ~30% Medieval Turkic (Karluk/Karakhanid/Kimak) on models, not 15%.

Target: Turkish_Balikesir
Distance: 1.8238% / 0.01823787
44.8 Greek_Kos
30.2 KAZ_Karluk
25.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia

Target: Turkish_Balikesir
Distance: 2.0088% / 0.02008827
37.8 Greek_Kos
34.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
28.0 KAZ_Karakhanid

Target: Turkish_Balikesir
Distance: 1.6404% / 0.01640443
47.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
37.4 KAZ_Turk
14.8 Greek_Kos



How you modeling your father, is how exactly the average Turk is coming.
False. My father has more Iran_N-related and less East Eurasian ancestry than the Anatolian Turkish average. You pretend to be an expert on Turkish demographics and genetics but pretty much eveything you've said is false.



I know well how Turks were in terms of 'autosomal DNA' when they enterned Anatolia.
No, you don't. That's why you think Turkish_Balikesir is genetically 15% Medieval Oghuz/Turkmen.



Also keep in mind that large parts of western Anatolia non-recently-mixed native Turks are a minority.
There is a sharp difference between wishes and facts. Native West Anatolian Turks form the majority of the population in west Anatolia. ~90% of the ethnic Turks were living in their villages only a few generations ago, Turks with recent non-Turkish ancestry are a minority.

Percentage of native population by province:
https://abload.de/img/124003021_438567354206zjmi.jpg]



Those studies that take samples only from the non-recently-mixed native Turks of western Anatolia give a wrong impression about the current genetic situation there.
1. Non-recently-mixed native Turks form the majority of the population in west Anatolia. See the map above.
2. A person of recently-mixed origin shouldn't be part of any ethnic group's average. That's the correct sampling method. Do you think immigrants in Sweden must be a part of the Swedish average? What's the purpose of ethnic labels then? Why do you think Greek_Trabzon samples were collected from fully Pontic Greeks? Aren't many (if not most) Pontic Greeks living in Greece mixed?



As for the ydna,is it possible to tell what lineages from modern Turks have to do with Turkomans?There are many J2a,G2a,E1b1,R1b-R1a with different branches-clades that is hard to understand their origins.Yes some R1a-R1b,Q,C,N are definitely coming from Turkomans but there are many lineages and clades that look not related to them.Anyway i am not focusing in ydna and i don't care about it,its the autosomal who matters.
Yes, it is not possible to draw any conclusion from the current data. You brought it up.

Johnny ola
11-06-2020, 10:26 PM
@ Alkaevi


This is my last comment and i am not gonna push it further since we ruining Vasilis thread.

First of all i do not agree with your models,they are all teribble and their fits-distances very bad.The Boru sample looks fine,i never said that there are not Turks who can score so high.But it is an extreme case.

It is the coastal western Anatolian regions, whose native Turks tend to have relatively high East Eurasian,where there are large percentages of people who are not wholly descended from the native Turks of the area due to the recent immigrants from elsewhere. Obviously, i did not mean the interior regions of western Anatolia in my reply to you, and keep in mind that the native Turks of the interior regions of western Anatolia do not have that high East Eurasian. Also, i have never equated East Eurasian with Turkic.. i may not have expressed myself well due to my not so good English.Your father's result are very close to the Turkish average.Most Turks got high Iran N genes,it is not anything new.

And yes i know the Turkish genes very well,the diffrence between you and me, it is that i don't post with an agenda or with nationalist views here.You just cherrypicking some specific samples and you trying to make them look similar to that of Uzbeks and Tatars.Most people here knows quite well the autosomal DNA of modern Turkey.

Anyway that it was my last comment,Vasilis sorry mate but i had to response!!!

CyrylBojarski
11-07-2020, 12:13 AM
Is it possible Bulgarians are western asian shifted because there were a lot of Armenian settlers in Bulgaria in ancient times, that were Bulgarinazed? It is not my idea, but I read some people think so

Johnny ola
11-07-2020, 12:28 AM
Is it possible Bulgarians are western asian shifted because there were a lot of Armenian settlers in Bulgaria in ancient times, that were Bulgarinazed? It is not my idea, but I read some people think so

Bulgaria has west asian admixture-input since the Chalcolithic period.This input would increase during the periods.So,nope it is not easy to say that the west asian admixture in modern Bulgars is associated with Armenians.You cannot even prove this by ydna kind of view.I really doubt there are Bulgarians with lineages similar to that of modern Armenians.These things are far from proven.

Alkaevli
11-07-2020, 12:47 AM
This is my last comment and i am not gonna push it further since we ruining Vasilis thread.
That's not my fault. Mods can split up the thread or remove the debate if necessary. Make false claims and expect no replies, is that it?



First of all i do not agree with your models,they are all teribble and their fits-distances very bad.
They are basically the same models used by Onur (since you agree with him on many aspects). Do you seriously think that fit values between 0.01 and 0.02 are terrible?

Care to share your own models? Anatolian Turks are almost perfectly modeled as a mixture of Anatolian Greeks and Damgaard's Medieval Turkic samples.


For your information, the Karluks were one of the eastern Turkic neighbours of the Oghuz.

West & Central Anatolia
https://abload.de/img/4321jxknq.png
East Anatolia
https://abload.de/img/2ikj1l.png



The Boru sample looks fine,i never said that there are not Turks who can score so high.But it is an extreme case.
On the contrary, the Bolu sample has worse fit values. Yes, it is an extreme case, I posted it because you were talking about extreme cases. I also stated in my post that it is an extreme case. Perhaps I should use bold text.



It is the coastal western Anatolian regions, whose native Turks tend to have relatively high East Eurasian,where there are large percentages of people who are not wholly descended from the native Turks of the area due to the recent immigrants from elsewhere. Obviously, i did not mean the interior regions of western Anatolia in my reply to you, and keep in mind that the native Turks of the interior regions of western Anatolia do not have that high East Eurasian.
Let me remind you again: I'm one of the co-admins of the Turkish DNA Project and a lot of things you know about the regional genetic differences in Anatolia come from the contents (maps, admixture results, Global25 samples) provided by our project. You don't have to repeat things I already know.

Recent immigrants in Sweden or elsewhere are not included in ethnic Swedish (or X ethnicity) average due to rational reasons. Don't be ridiculous please.



Also, i have never equated East Eurasian with Turkic.. i may not have expressed myself well due to my not so good English.Your father's result are very close to the Turkish average.Most Turks got high Iran N genes,it is not anything new.
Yes, you have.

High is a relative word. My father has considerably higher Iran_N ancestry than most Turks, including those from east-central Anatolia. I guess you are also better informed about my own father's genetic make up than me.



And yes i know the Turkish genes very well,the diffrence between you and me, it is that i don't post with an agenda or with nationalist views here.
No, you don't know very well, it's obvious from your posts. So I'm a nationalist or a person with an agenda just because I don't agree with your opinion on this matter. You can't back up your claims, is that why you started labeling me?

I'm well aware of the fact that ethnic Turks of Turkey descend mostly from pre-Turkic Anatolians, you are the one who tries to underestimate the Oghuz/Turkmen genetic input. You can't even post a model to back up your argument. When you are run out of argument you pull out the demography card despite the fact that native Turks form the majority in west Anatolia.



You just cherrypicking some specific samples and you trying to make them look similar to that of Uzbeks and Tatars.
Do you have comprehension problems? I haven't cherrypicked anything, you said "extreme cases score 15-20% Central Asian admixture at most" and I proved you wrong by posting an extreme case.

Turks are genetically not similar to Uzbeks or Tatars. Having 20-30% Karluk-like ancestry doesn't make us close to Uzbeks. Ethnic Turks from central and west Anatolia have 20-30% Karluk-like Medieval Turkic ancestry, pointing out this fact or correcting your mistakes (or false claims) doesn't make me a person with an agenda.

Why did you ignore my question about Greek_Trabzon? Do you think Greek_Trabzon should include recently-mixed individuals as well? Or your sampling methods only apply to Turkey?


Most people here knows quite well the autosomal DNA of modern Turkey.
Turkey is the name of a country. There are Turks, Kurds, Circassians, Bosnians, Lazes and other ethnic groups in Turkey and each ethnic group has its own genetic profile, despite the overlaps. These ethnic groups will continue to be represented by non-recently-mixed individuals.

eastara
11-07-2020, 12:48 AM
Bulgaria has west asian admixture-input since the Chalcolithic period.This input would increase during the periods.So,nope it is not easy to say that the west asian admixture in modern Bulgars is associated with Armenians.You cannot even prove this by ydna kind of view.I really doubt there are Bulgarians with lineages similar to that of modern Armenians.These things are far from proven.

There are some Y haplogroups which are similar to modern Armenians, although they may have come to Bulgaria also in Roman times.
For example I2c2, this is in fact my own male line has brother clades in Armenia. However as published above it was found also in old bones from Serbian Roman graves. There are numerous Y hapolgroups among Bulgarians, which have some Anatolian/Middle Eastern affinity, however too few from this region are tested deeper (excluding the Arabs) for good comparison.

Johnny ola
11-07-2020, 01:29 AM
There are some Y haplogroups which are similar to modern Armenians, although they may have come to Bulgaria also in Roman times.
For example I2c2, this is in fact my own male line has brother clades in Armenia. However as published above it was found also in old bones from Serbian Roman graves. There are numerous Y hapolgroups among Bulgarians, which have some Anatolian/Middle Eastern affinity, however too few from this region are tested deeper (excluding the Arabs) for good comparison.

Middle east lineages do not say much.You have to check carefully lineages that are associated with modern Armenians.And ofc specific clades of them especially Ydna(R1b and J2a).Also keep in mind that the autosomal DNA of Armenians is Levantine influenced.Armenians are not a typical south caucasian group.Their genes are between south caucasus and mesopotamia.Some of them are closer to Assyrians for example.I think the west asian admixture in modern Bulgars is associated with Copper Age/BA and later west asian influences.The second option would have been from Byzantines because Thracian Greeks have also some caucasus/west asian shift.In general Thracian Greeks are a combination of Northern Greeks and Bulgarians.

Johnny ola
11-07-2020, 01:31 AM
That's not my fault. Mods can split up the thread or remove the debate if necessary. Make false claims and expect no replies, is that it?


They are basically the same models used by Onur (since you agree with him on many aspects). Do you seriously think that fit values between 0.01 and 0.02 are terrible?

Care to share your own models? Anatolian Turks are almost perfectly modeled as a mixture of Anatolian Greeks and Damgaard's Medieval Turkic samples.


For your information, the Karluks were one of the eastern Turkic neighbours of the Oghuz.

West & Central Anatolia
https://abload.de/img/4321jxknq.png
East Anatolia
https://abload.de/img/2ikj1l.png


On the contrary, the Bolu sample has worse fit values. Yes, it is an extreme case, I posted it because you were talking about extreme cases. I also stated in my post that it is an extreme case. Perhaps I should use bold text.


Let me remind you again: I'm one of the co-admins of the Turkish DNA Project and a lot of things you know about the regional genetic differences in Anatolia come from the contents (maps, admixture results, Global25 samples) provided by our project. You don't have to repeat things I already know.

Recent immigrants in Sweden or elsewhere are not included in ethnic Swedish (or X ethnicity) average due to rational reasons. Don't be ridiculous please.


Yes, you have.

High is a relative word. My father has considerably higher Iran_N ancestry than most Turks, including those from east-central Anatolia. I guess you are also better informed about my own father's genetic make up than me.


No, you don't know very well, it's obvious from your posts. So I'm a nationalist or a person with an agenda just because I don't agree with your opinion on this matter. You can't back up your claims, is that why you started labeling me?

I'm well aware of the fact that ethnic Turks of Turkey descend mostly from pre-Turkic Anatolians, you are the one who tries to underestimate the Oghuz/Turkmen genetic input. You can't even post a model to back up your argument. When you are run out of argument you pull out the demography card despite the fact that native Turks form the majority in west Anatolia.


Do you have comprehension problems? I haven't cherrypicked anything, you said "extreme cases score 15-20% Central Asian admixture at most" and I proved you wrong by posting an extreme case.

Turks are genetically not similar to Uzbeks or Tatars. Having 20-30% Karluk-like ancestry doesn't make us close to Uzbeks. Ethnic Turks from central and west Anatolia have 20-30% Karluk-like Medieval Turkic ancestry, pointing out this fact or correcting your mistakes (or false claims) doesn't make me a person with an agenda.

Why did you ignore my question about Greek_Trabzon? Do you think Greek_Trabzon should include recently-mixed individuals as well? Or your sampling methods only apply to Turkey?

Turkey is the name of a country. There are Turks, Kurds, Circassians, Bosnians, Lazes and other ethnic groups in Turkey and each ethnic group has its own genetic profile, despite the overlaps. These ethnic groups will continue to be represented by non-recently-mixed individuals.

Kaz Karluk is good for modeling the Turkic invaders of Anatolia.I was referring to your modern population-based models in my objection.But since you do not insist on those models,there is no need to continue to debate on them.Yes,ethnic groups should be represented with samples with all known ancestors from the specific ethnic group...i was referring to the current demographic situation in coastal western Anatolia specifically.Btw there are many ways to model the Turkish samples in G25.

J Man
11-07-2020, 01:34 AM
I am not focusing in the east eurasian genes.I told you that the Turkoman admixture in modern Turkey is not more than 15-20% and this in the 'most extreme cases'.How you modeling your father, is how exactly the average Turk is coming.I know well how Turks were in terms of 'autosomal DNA' when they enterned Anatolia.I already told you that in my above comment and ofc i am not focusing on it.My statement is clear and for the last time.The coastal parts in the west coast of Turkey can have indeed very high Turkoman admixture (yes like the samples we got) but the average Turk is not like this and most regions in Turkey will be somewhere 8-13% admixed by these people.The fact that Balikesir and some coastal parts have somewhere 15% and even more it does not mean the whole country is like this genetically.

Also keep in mind that large parts of western Anatolia non-recently-mixed native Turks are a minority, too many recent Balkan, Caucasian and other Anatolian and Kurdish immigrants live there today. Those studies that take samples only from the non-recently-mixed native Turks of western Anatolia give a wrong impression about the current genetic situation there.So,you should not generalize the situation in the western parts of modern Turkey.

As for the ydna,is it possible to tell what lineages from modern Turks have to do with Turkomans?There are many J2a,G2a,E1b1,R1b-R1a with different branches-clades that is hard to understand their origins.Yes some R1a-R1b,Q,C,N are definitely coming from Turkomans but there are many lineages and clades that look not related to them.Anyway i am not focusing in ydna and i don't care about it,its the autosomal who matters.

Medieval Turkomans that moved into Anatolia would have also very likely had some J2a clades present among them as well. Certain J2a clades have shown up in Iron Age and Medieval Altai. There is also a good amount of ancient J2a results from Turkic and pre-Turkic samples from Mongolia and Central Asia as well. J2a samples have been found among Xiongnu, Turk and Khitan samples from Mongolia. J2a has also been found among Karluk and Karakhanid samples from Central Asia.

J Man
11-07-2020, 01:38 AM
There are some Y haplogroups which are similar to modern Armenians, although they may have come to Bulgaria also in Roman times.
For example I2c2, this is in fact my own male line has brother clades in Armenia. However as published above it was found also in old bones from Serbian Roman graves. There are numerous Y hapolgroups among Bulgarians, which have some Anatolian/Middle Eastern affinity, however too few from this region are tested deeper (excluding the Arabs) for good comparison.

What are your thoughts about the origins of J2a clades among Bulgarians so far?...Certainly a variety of sources is the most likely eh.

Johnny ola
11-07-2020, 01:41 AM
Medieval Turkomans that moved into Anatolia would have also very likely had some J2a clades present among them as well. Certain J2a clades have shown up in Iron Age and Medieval Altai. There is also a good amount of ancient J2a results from Turkic and pre-Turkic samples from Mongolia and Central Asia as well. J2a samples have been found among Xiongnu, Turk and Khitan samples from Mongolia. J2a has also been found among Karluk and Karakhanid samples from Central Asia.

The medieval Turkic samples with J2a almost all have the J-Z7706 subclade of J2a, which is rare in modern Turkey.I am not an expert on ydna of Turkey btw,there might be other lineages like R1b-R1a who will be more Turkoman associated than some J2a lineages.But in general the J2a clades in modern Turkey seems to not be associated with these people.

Johnny ola
11-07-2020, 01:45 AM
What are your thoughts about the origins of J2a clades among Bulgarians so far?...Certainly a variety of sources is the most likely eh.

Btw i am checking also that R1a and R1b are also native in Turkey(Pre-Turkoman).Also it seems mysterious that northwest Turks are highly R1b with some clades that they can be found among balkan people.I am wondering if they have any connection with Thracians-Phrygians.

Principe
11-07-2020, 03:10 AM
What are your thoughts about the origins of J2a clades among Bulgarians so far?...Certainly a variety of sources is the most likely eh.

It’s for sure a huge mix throughout time

eastara
11-07-2020, 04:28 AM
Middle east lineages do not say much.You have to check carefully lineages that are associated with modern Armenians.And ofc specific clades of them especially Ydna(R1b and J2a).Also keep in mind that the autosomal DNA of Armenians is Levantine influenced.Armenians are not a typical south caucasian group.Their genes are between south caucasus and mesopotamia.Some of them are closer to Assyrians for example.I think the west asian admixture in modern Bulgars is associated with Copper Age/BA and later west asian influences.The second option would have been from Byzantines because Thracian Greeks have also some caucasus/west asian shift.In general Thracian Greeks are a combination of Northern Greeks and Bulgarians.

I am not saying the Anatolian influence came with the Armenians only. You must know that current population of Anatolia has little to do with those who lived there in Hellenistic, Roman and even Byzantine times. Armenians lived much to the South and may not match those currently living in the mountainous Caucasus. Paulicians did not come from the Caucasus, but from what is now Syria(no Arabs then there)
We already have some notion which are the haplogroups in Copper and Bronze age Bulgaria and unfortunately very few could have any direct descendants in modern Bulgarians.
Those which are somewhat deeper tested during the Copper age like Varna have no matching. The only proven G2a branch is found in North Western Europe, but not in Bulgaria, R1b-V88 not found in any modern Bulgarian, nor the old branches of I2a-M423 or I2-M223, let alone H2.
Same thing in Bronze age - main haplogroups I2a-M223, R1b-Z2103 and R1a-Z93. Current proven I2a-M223 among Bulgarians are from the Germanic lines. There is one R1a-Z93 that may originate in the Bronze age, but some are from the few branches which may be connected to late Turkic expansion from the steppes. Those R1b proven in the old steppe- Z2106*, Z2109* are currently found among Bashkirs, Tatars and even West Europeans, but not on the Balkans. It is even not clear which way the Balkan cluster BY611 came to the Balkans, evidently not from the steppe. The branches L277 and M584, occasionally found among Bulgarian must have come from Anatolia very recently.
Same thing with J2a and J2b - no evidence in Bulgaria until the late Bronze age.

Almost everything that forms current Bulgarians Y haplogroups must have come during the Late Bronze age or further, as it looks predominantly from Central Europe and Anatolia/Middle Easts. Of course, not always the haplogroups match the autosomal admixture, as is proven with the West Europeans an haplogroup R1b. However Bulgarians don't have a dominant haplogroup as even in the Western Balkans to attribute this to recent bottleneck and genetic drift.

Johnny ola
11-07-2020, 02:21 PM
I am not saying the Anatolian influence came with the Armenians only. You must know that current population of Anatolia has little to do with those who lived there in Hellenistic, Roman and even Byzantine times. Armenians lived much to the South and may not match those currently living in the mountainous Caucasus. Paulicians did not come from the Caucasus, but from what is now Syria(no Arabs then there)
We already have some notion which are the haplogroups in Copper and Bronze age Bulgaria and unfortunately very few could have any direct descendants in modern Bulgarians.
Those which are somewhat deeper tested during the Copper age like Varna have no matching. The only proven G2a branch is found in North Western Europe, but not in Bulgaria, R1b-V88 not found in any modern Bulgarian, nor the old branches of I2a-M423 or I2-M223, let alone H2.
Same thing in Bronze age - main haplogroups I2a-M223, R1b-Z2103 and R1a-Z93. Current proven I2a-M223 among Bulgarians are from the Germanic lines. There is one R1a-Z93 that may originate in the Bronze age, but some are from the few branches which may be connected to late Turkic expansion from the steppes. Those R1b proven in the old steppe- Z2106*, Z2109* are currently found among Bashkirs, Tatars and even West Europeans, but not on the Balkans. It is even not clear which way the Balkan cluster BY611 came to the Balkans, evidently not from the steppe. The branches L277 and M584, occasionally found among Bulgarian must have come from Anatolia very recently.
Same thing with J2a and J2b - no evidence in Bulgaria until the late Bronze age.

Almost everything that forms current Bulgarians Y haplogroups must have come during the Late Bronze age or further, as it looks predominantly from Central Europe and Anatolia/Middle Easts. Of course, not always the haplogroups match the autosomal admixture, as is proven with the West Europeans an haplogroup R1b. However Bulgarians don't have a dominant haplogroup as even in the Western Balkans to attribute this to recent bottleneck and genetic drift.

Whos the current population of Anatolia? You mean the modern Turks? The Anatolian input It can be found pretty much everywhere. From Cyprus and Greek Islands to South Italy and from Anatolian Greeks to Some Balkan people even Bulgarians. The west Asian input in balkans is not that different from BA Anatolia. Also We dont have samples from Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantines times but the people of anatolia would not have been very different. Just Look modern Turks and Anatolian Greeks and also Greek islanders. They all derive their ancestry mostly from the Bronze Age Anatolia. As For the haplos/clades you are right but these things are far from proven an Armenian migration to the region of Bulgaria. There are many sources for the west Asian influence there, you cannot be sure that is from Armenians or even Byzantines i would say. Such things need Specific studies and papers from professionals. We here just guessing.

eastara
11-08-2020, 12:09 AM
Whos the current population of Anatolia? You mean the modern Turks? The Anatolian input It can be found pretty much everywhere. From Cyprus and Greek Islands to South Italy and from Anatolian Greeks to Some Balkan people even Bulgarians. The west Asian input in balkans is not that different from BA Anatolia. Also We dont have samples from Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantines times but the people of anatolia would not have been very different. Just Look modern Turks and Anatolian Greeks and also Greek islanders. They all derive their ancestry mostly from the Bronze Age Anatolia. As For the haplos/clades you are right but these things are far from proven an Armenian migration to the region of Bulgaria. There are many sources for the west Asian influence there, you cannot be sure that is from Armenians or even Byzantines i would say. Such things need Specific studies and papers from professionals. We here just guessing.

Of course, much of the West Asian influence came during the Bronze age, either directly from Anatolia, or indirectly through the steppe.
However current Bulgarian Y haplogroup do not match those of Anatolian Turks, excluding those which are a recent back migration with resettlement of Balkan Turks, Albanians, Boshniaks, etc.
The migrations of Anatolians to the Balkans during Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman times is very well documented, but much of this could be now part of the Greeks and Balkan Turks, not Bulgarians.

Johnny ola
11-08-2020, 01:37 AM
Of course, much of the West Asian influence came during the Bronze age, either directly from Anatolia, or indirectly through the steppe.
However current Bulgarian Y haplogroup do not match those of Anatolian Turks, excluding those which are a recent back migration with resettlement of Balkan Turks, Albanians, Boshniaks, etc.
The migrations of Anatolians to the Balkans during Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman times is very well documented, but much of this could be now part of the Greeks and Balkan Turks, not Bulgarians.

We don't know how medieval Bulgaria and medieval Bulgarians were exactly in terms of autosomal DNA especially before the slavic and Bulgar migrations to the area.We know unti the IA period when Bulgaria was inhabit by Thracian people.What happened later during hellenistic and Roman times is not well documented.The Roman paper showed west asian admixture in the whole Italy pretty much.I am not avoiding the fact that this phenomeon took place in many other parts of the Roman empire incunding Greece and parts of the balkans.

Leper
11-08-2020, 04:05 PM
@ Alkaevi


This is my last comment and i am not gonna push it further since we ruining Vasilis thread.

First of all i do not agree with your models,they are all teribble and their fits-distances very bad.The Boru sample looks fine,i never said that there are not Turks who can score so high.But it is an extreme case.

It is the coastal western Anatolian regions, whose native Turks tend to have relatively high East Eurasian,where there are large percentages of people who are not wholly descended from the native Turks of the area due to the recent immigrants from elsewhere. Obviously, i did not mean the interior regions of western Anatolia in my reply to you, and keep in mind that the native Turks of the interior regions of western Anatolia do not have that high East Eurasian. Also, i have never equated East Eurasian with Turkic.. i may not have expressed myself well due to my not so good English.Your father's result are very close to the Turkish average.Most Turks got high Iran N genes,it is not anything new.

And yes i know the Turkish genes very well,the diffrence between you and me, it is that i don't post with an agenda or with nationalist views here.You just cherrypicking some specific samples and you trying to make them look similar to that of Uzbeks and Tatars.Most people here knows quite well the autosomal DNA of modern Turkey.

Anyway that it was my last comment,Vasilis sorry mate but i had to response!!!

The fits are quite fine.

And so far I haven't seen you proving your claims with any data and/or genetic modellings.

eastara
11-09-2020, 12:34 AM
41056
This is a copy from the compiled edition "Gold and Bronze" about Bronze age in Bulgaria. This is a map of the suggested cultural influences with connection to the so called Valchitran treasure, the biggest gold hoard from the Bronze age found in Bulgaria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valchitran_Treasure

While there is another chapter "Troy and its contact with the Balkans", it is not definite if this is only exchange of ideas or actual population movement.

Material culture in Bulgaria at the beginning of 3rd millennium BC is characterised by incrusted, burnished, handmade pottery(Mihalich phase) that has parallels in Northwestern Anatolia(Troy I). Similarities exist, but they are rather of universal nature - in this period the entire area of Northern Aegean, northwest Anatolia and Thrace belonged to a loosely related cultural entity. It is difficult to identify which influences spread form where, especially since homogeneity in these areas goes back to the end of Chalcolithics.
Significant transformations occurred only around mid 3rd millennium BC, during the sv.Kirilovo phase. During this period, changes took place in Central and Western Anatolia. The so called Great Caravan Route, leading straight through Anatolia from the Southeast to the NorthWest, came into existence and this was also the time of the above-mentioned Anatolian trade network. From today's perspective one must also think of its connection to present day Bulgaria, where Troy could have played the role of an important mediator. Presumably, it is not coincidental that a large number of finds from this period in Southeastern Bulgaria show clearly Anatolian features.
The eventful relationship between Thrace and Anatolia during the Bronze age not only provides insights into their contacts, bi=ut in broader sense also indicates links between the Balkans and the Near East. During certain period present day Southeastern Bulgaria was indeed more strongly connected to developments in the South and the reasons for such contacts was the rich raw material resources that the region had to offer(gold and copper).
However...
At the beginning of 12c.BC the situation changed considerably. Once again, this was a time of transformation, in which many palatial societies in the Eastern Mediterranean experienced an upheaval. Palaces(where present) were destroyed and new elite arose, often searching for ties to the former elite, but principally introducing new developments. During this period we observe a reversal of the direction of influence New handmade pottery, often decorated with plastic bands with finger impressions, suddenly appear in the cultural layers of Troy VIIb1. A bit later in Troy VIIb2, a whole spectrum of new ceramic shapes was added, consisting of medium fine, hand made, well burnished pottery often decorated with incised motifs, flutes or conspicuous knobs. Thanks to the latter, this is often labeled Knobbed ware, which is almost unanimously linked to the region of Dobrudja ( North East Bulgaria and Romania). In addition, architecture changed the so called orthostates are in use, which in turn can be linked to modern South Ukraine. The communication route would thereby remain the same , but to what extend it was accompanied by and actual migration remain an open question.

This may explain why David Reich's lab is desperate to have samples from Bulgaria, as they claim that this is the direction Indo-Europeans came to Anatolia.

CyrylBojarski
11-09-2020, 09:18 PM
"A Genetic Atlas of Human Admixture History" is a pile of crap.

It's based on modern DNA and often confuses the direction of gene flow.

Russians don't have 10% Turkic or Mongol ancestry. Some Russian groups have Finno-Ugric and Volga Tatar substrates because their ancestors settled in lands that were Finno-Ugric and Tatar.

Do you know which Russian groups exactly?

Johnny ola
11-10-2020, 12:36 AM
Do you know which Russian groups exactly?

Northern Russians.I think there are samples in G25 as well.Karelians,Permians,Mordvins,Mari etc.

CyrylBojarski
11-17-2020, 08:02 PM
I have a question to Bulgarians. Do you have cousins from Greece on commercial tests and how much matches from Bulgaria do you have?

td120
11-17-2020, 09:41 PM
1.Yes
2.On what company's test? One would expect most of the Bulgarian matches to be on FTDNA and least on Ancestry.
I am not sure about Greeks' representation among the various companies but it seems to me like they're equally represented on FT,23andme and Ancestry (the last two probably more popular with the diaspora,but I may be wrong).I haven't used MH.

CyrylBojarski
11-17-2020, 09:46 PM
1.Yes
2.On what company's test? One would expect most of the Bulgarian matches to be on FTDNA and least on Ancestry.
I am not sure about Greeks' representation among the various companies but it seems to me like they're equally represented on FT,23andme and Ancestry (the last two probably more popular with the diaspora,but I may be wrong).I haven't used MH.

On 23andme how much relatives approximately from Bulgaria do you have?

td120
11-17-2020, 10:28 PM
As of today (stats from "Ancestor Birthplaces" by whoever have decided to mark theirs....unfortunately not everybody has)

67 Bulgarian matches ( 39 of whom have 4+ Grandparents from the territory of nowadays Bulgaria )

and

69 Greek matches ( 30 of whom have 4+ Grandparents from the territory of modern day Greece ).


Looks like this:

Bulgaria (67)

Has 1+ grandparents (67)

Has 2+ grandparents (61)

Has 3+ grandparents (49)

Has 4+ grandparents (39)




Greece (69)

Has 1+ grandparents (69)

Has 2+ grandparents (56)

Has 3+ grandparents (38)

Has 4+ grandparents (30)

Other ancestor birthplaces of my Bulgarian matches include Eastern and Western Thrace and Macedonia,some Southern Romania.

Other ancestor birthplaces of my Greek matches include Turkey (European and Asia Minor) .

CyrylBojarski
11-17-2020, 10:46 PM
As of today (stats from "Ancestor Birthplaces" by whoever have decided to mark theirs....unfortunately not everybody has)

67 Bulgarian matches ( 39 of whom have 4+ Grandparents from the territory of nowadays Bulgaria )

and

69 Greek matches ( 30 of whom have 4+ Grandparents from the territory of modern day Greece ).


Looks like this:

Bulgaria (67)

Has 1+ grandparents (67)

Has 2+ grandparents (61)

Has 3+ grandparents (49)

Has 4+ grandparents (39)




Greece (69)

Has 1+ grandparents (69)

Has 2+ grandparents (56)

Has 3+ grandparents (38)

Has 4+ grandparents (30)

Other ancestor birthplaces of my Bulgarian matches include Eastern and Western Thrace and Macedonia,some Southern Romania.

Other ancestor birthplaces of my Greek matches include Turkey (European and Asia Minor) .



Thank you very much. So I think it is normal for Bulgarians to have more matches from Greece, because Bulgaria is untested to my knowledge.

I have only 3 Bulgarian matches on MyHeritage, I think it is normal if all of your ancestors were from there and you have only 67

Why Do Bulgarians and Greeks have common ancestors? To my knowledge there are not a lot of Greeks in Bulgaria, only strong ancient influence, especially in Thrace

td120
11-17-2020, 11:17 PM
Thrace has been a melting pot for many centuries and my case above is not to draw conclusions from (I have virtually no matches from north of the Balkan Mountain Range).

eastara
11-18-2020, 11:21 PM
Yes, the number of matches per country may be influenced by the number of tested. For Greeks this is usually the diaspora, which tends to be from 2 main sources - Anatolian and island Greeks emigrated to USA. Australia in 1920s, and a second wave after WW2.
Greeks from Greek Macedonia and Thrace starting from Ottoman times but most around and after WW2. Most of these are with initial Macedonian or Bulgarian origin, some still speaking Slavic at the time. Of course, Bulgarians match the second kind, no wonder sometimes at 1st place, as many Bulgarian in turn are descendants of refugees from there.
These are my matches per country with 23andMe, never mind USA at first place. I am with mixed South Eastern/North Western Bulgarian origin.

United States (246)
Bulgaria (121)
Greece (69)
Romania (54)
Croatia (52)
Poland (50)
Serbia (41)
Bosnia and Herzegovina (40)
Ukraine (35)
Russia (29)
Germany (27)
Italy (26)
United Kingdom (21)
Hungary (20)
Turkey (18)
Canada (16)
North Macedonia (15)
Austria (14)
Sweden (12)
Albania (12)

CyrylBojarski
11-18-2020, 11:41 PM
Yes, the number of matches per country may be influenced by the number of tested. For Greeks this is usually the diaspora, which tends to be from 2 main sources - Anatolian and island Greeks emigrated to USA. Australia in 1920s, and a second wave after WW2.
Greeks from Greek Macedonia and Thrace starting from Ottoman times but most around and after WW2. Most of these are with initial Macedonian or Bulgarian origin, some still speaking Slavic at the time. Of course, Bulgarians match the second kind, no wonder sometimes at 1st place, as many Bulgarian in turn are descendants of refugees from there.
These are my matches per country with 23andMe, never mind USA at first place. I am with mixed South Eastern/North Western Bulgarian origin.

United States (246)
Bulgaria (121)
Greece (69)
Romania (54)
Croatia (52)
Poland (50)
Serbia (41)
Bosnia and Herzegovina (40)
Ukraine (35)
Russia (29)
Germany (27)
Italy (26)
United Kingdom (21)
Hungary (20)
Turkey (18)
Canada (16)
North Macedonia (15)
Austria (14)
Sweden (12)
Albania (12)

Are your matches from Ukraine Bulgarian settlers from there? If yes how their results look and do they differ from Bulgarians in Bulgaria genetically?

eastara
11-19-2020, 02:22 AM
I have noticed that some of my closest Ukrainian matches have in fact some Ashkenazi ancestry. I have mentioned that initially 23andMe showed me with 1% Askenazi and numerous Jewish matches. However later they understood that this relationship has to be "downgraded" - as with most endogamous people one and the same blocks circulating in the community randomly join makes connections closer than they really are. However it seems they don't do it for people with small amount of real Jewish, who in turn have some Slavic admixture, hence the mix-up.
I have some knowledge of the Bulgarians and Gagauz, who migrated to Moldova and Ukraine during Ottoman times as several joined the Bulgarian DNA project. Autosomally some have close Bulgarian relatives, but not with my mother, who is from South Eastern Bulgaria, where many came from. Surprisingly the Gagauz have many Greek and Albanian relatives (they have matching also on the Y haplogroups) which made me think that they initially came from the South Western Balkans.
I also seem to have more Croat than Serb relatives, which was strange as my father is a Shop/Torlak from a village close to the Serbian border. However on closer look they all came from Dalmatia-Split area, where there were many settlers from Macedonia/Montenegro/Albania. I have also most Macedonians and Albanians coming from my father's side. Some Bulgarians, who thought initially that their ancestry is from North Western Bulgaria discovered they may be in fact migrants from South Albania/West Macedonian area in 18 c.

trdbr1234
11-19-2020, 06:52 AM
I have noticed that some of my closest Ukrainian matches have in fact some Ashkenazi ancestry. I have mentioned that initially 23andMe showed me with 1% Askenazi and numerous Jewish matches. However later they understood that this relationship has to be "downgraded" - as with most endogamous people one and the same blocks circulating in the community randomly join makes connections closer than they really are. However it seems they don't do it for people with small amount of real Jewish, who in turn have some Slavic admixture, hence the mix-up.
I have some knowledge of the Bulgarians and Gagauz, who migrated to Moldova and Ukraine during Ottoman times as several joined the Bulgarian DNA project. Autosomally some have close Bulgarian relatives, but not with my mother, who is from South Eastern Bulgaria, where many came from. Surprisingly the Gagauz have many Greek and Albanian relatives (they have matching also on the Y haplogroups) which made me think that they initially came from the South Western Balkans.
I also seem to have more Croat than Serb relatives, which was strange as my father is a Shop/Torlak from a village close to the Serbian border. However on closer look they all came from Dalmatia-Split area, where there were many settlers from Macedonia/Montenegro/Albania. I have also most Macedonians and Albanians coming from my father's side. Some Bulgarians, who thought initially that their ancestry is from North Western Bulgaria discovered they may be in fact migrants from South Albania/West Macedonian area in 18 c.

The Gagauz are really interesting because they seem to transcend a few different nationalities. I watched an Albanian documentary of Albanians in Ukraine and they were settled next to Gagauz villages. They stated that they initially didn't marry with the Gagauz. However nowadays, they do intermarry.

eastara
11-19-2020, 07:42 AM
Yes, Bulgarians, Gagauz and Orthodox Albanians used to live in Varna area and migrated together in 1812 to Moldova. After that were more big waves of Bulgarians especially 1829 from Eastern Bulgaria, but no more Albanians.
The problem is that most of these people are already admixed with other nationalities and is hard to understand which way the connection is coming from.
Gagauz, however used to keep more to themselves and did not migrate to the city, so started intermixing much later than the Bulgarians. For a long time the official version was that they are autochthonous in the Varna area and are descendants if not the old Bulgars themselves, then to Kumans, etc Turcic people. Genetic testing is done, unfortunately of Moldovan Gagauz only, which shows clearly they are Balkan people, very close to Bulgarians. However if they lived around Varna all the time they should be closer to Romanians, than to Greek and Albanians.
The 3 Gagauz with tested male line in the Bulgarian project also show such South West Balkan connection. The only one from Bulgaria is J2b2, another one from Moldova is G2a-P303*. He was tested with the SNP pack and for a long time was believed to be close to the Caucasian and even Indian branches (hence supporting the old Bulgar theory). However recently he got his first close match - a Vlach from Albania. The third, from Tomai, Moldova is I2a-Dinarc South I-Y52621.

CyrylBojarski
11-19-2020, 07:45 AM
I have noticed that some of my closest Ukrainian matches have in fact some Ashkenazi ancestry. I have mentioned that initially 23andMe showed me with 1% Askenazi and numerous Jewish matches. However later they understood that this relationship has to be "downgraded" - as with most endogamous people one and the same blocks circulating in the community randomly join makes connections closer than they really are. However it seems they don't do it for people with small amount of real Jewish, who in turn have some Slavic admixture, hence the mix-up.
I have some knowledge of the Bulgarians and Gagauz, who migrated to Moldova and Ukraine during Ottoman times as several joined the Bulgarian DNA project. Autosomally some have close Bulgarian relatives, but not with my mother, who is from South Eastern Bulgaria, where many came from. Surprisingly the Gagauz have many Greek and Albanian relatives (they have matching also on the Y haplogroups) which made me think that they initially came from the South Western Balkans.
I also seem to have more Croat than Serb relatives, which was strange as my father is a Shop/Torlak from a village close to the Serbian border. However on closer look they all came from Dalmatia-Split area, where there were many settlers from Macedonia/Montenegro/Albania. I have also most Macedonians and Albanians coming from my father's side. Some Bulgarians, who thought initially that their ancestry is from North Western Bulgaria discovered they may be in fact migrants from South Albania/West Macedonian area in 18 c.

I can't understand how did you have Jewish relatives and now they disappeared. Ashkenazi Jews can match only Poles, because of shared Polish DNA, they do not have DNA from other Slavic countries

eastara
11-19-2020, 08:11 AM
I can't understand how did you have Jewish relatives and now they disappeared. Ashkenazi Jews can match only Poles, because of shared Polish DNA, they do not have DNA from other Slavic countries

My Ashkenazi relatives disappeared because 23andMe improved their algorithm. This was explained before, that they are using a different approach to Asjhkenazi Jewish. Generally, is you share a certain amount of DNA and length of the common blocks, they can estimate what kind of relatives you actually are. However with the Ashkenazi, because of this random joining of smaller blocks, coming from different sides of the family, they started "downgrading". For example, in general population some one was estimated at 2-4 cousins, but with Ashkenazi was converted to 4-Distant cousin. They could already tell who are predominantly Ashkenazi and did it for them, but not with those, who were 1/4 or less.
However, the same should be considered for the people with Slavic descent, especially East Slavs. We are also descending from a small number of Slavic relatives during the Middle Ages and one and the same small blocks exist in all who have Slavic connection. Then they could also randomly join and form a false closer relation. However, 23andMe is not applying such "downgrading" procedure as with the Ashkenazi. The fact that most Ashkenazi have also some Slavic admixture transfers to connection between Slavs and Ashkenazi despite they never lived close or ever intermixed. This is more so with the Balkan Slavs, who have also some Middle Eastern ancestry, which further derails the algorithm.

CyrylBojarski
11-19-2020, 08:15 AM
My Ashkenazi relatives disappeared because 23andMe improved their algorithm. This was explained before, that they are using a different approach to Asjhkenazi Jewish. Generally, is you share a certain amount of DNA and length of the common blocks, they can estimate what kind of relatives you actually are. However with the Ashkenazi, because of this random joining of smaller blocks, coming from different sides of the family, they started "downgrading". For example, in general population some one was estimated at 2-4 cousins, but with Ashkenazi was converted to 4-Distant cousin. They could already tell who are predominantly Ashkenazi and did it for them, but not with those, who were 1/4 or less.
However, the same should be considered for the people with Slavic descent, especially East Slavs. We are also descending from a small number of Slavic relatives during the Middle Ages and one and the same small blocks exist in all who have Slavic connection. Then they could also randomly join and form a false closer relation. However, 23andMe is not applying such "downgrading" procedure as with the Ashkenazi. The fact that most Ashkenazi have also some Slavic admixture transfers to connection between Slavs and Ashkenazi despite they never lived close or ever intermixed. This is more so with the Balkan Slavs, who have also some Middle Eastern ancestry, which further derails the algorithm.

That problem with algorithm was most likely a long time ago, now 23andme is the most accurate test in my opinion.

CyrylBojarski
11-19-2020, 08:17 AM
My Ashkenazi relatives disappeared because 23andMe improved their algorithm. This was explained before, that they are using a different approach to Asjhkenazi Jewish. Generally, is you share a certain amount of DNA and length of the common blocks, they can estimate what kind of relatives you actually are. However with the Ashkenazi, because of this random joining of smaller blocks, coming from different sides of the family, they started "downgrading". For example, in general population some one was estimated at 2-4 cousins, but with Ashkenazi was converted to 4-Distant cousin. They could already tell who are predominantly Ashkenazi and did it for them, but not with those, who were 1/4 or less.
However, the same should be considered for the people with Slavic descent, especially East Slavs. We are also descending from a small number of Slavic relatives during the Middle Ages and one and the same small blocks exist in all who have Slavic connection. Then they could also randomly join and form a false closer relation. However, 23andMe is not applying such "downgrading" procedure as with the Ashkenazi. The fact that most Ashkenazi have also some Slavic admixture transfers to connection between Slavs and Ashkenazi despite they never lived close or ever intermixed. This is more so with the Balkan Slavs, who have also some Middle Eastern ancestry, which further derails the algorithm.

Could you share Bulgarian results from Ukraine? I am interested

eastara
11-19-2020, 09:32 AM
I have seen Bulgarian results from Ukraine from predominantly admixed people with Ukrainians, Russians, etc. Here is one on FTDNA, she is possibly full blood Bulgarian, origin from Crimea, refugees from Strandja region, extreme South East Bulgaria.

Europe 99%
Southern Europe
Greece & Balkans 66%
Italian Peninsula 22%
Malta 7%
Baltic
Baltic 4%
Middle East & North Africa <2%
Middle East
Anatolia, Armenia, & Mesopotamia <1%
Druze <1%
Middle East Jewish
Mizrahi Jewish <1%

She is in fact matching some Bulgarians, who currently live in Strandja region, does not have close Ukrainians and Russians except from known admixed relatives. I don't see any close Greek and Albanians as was the case with the Gagauz.

CyrylBojarski
11-19-2020, 09:38 AM
I have seen Bulgarian results from Ukraine from predominantly admixed people with Ukrainians, Russians, etc. Here is one on FTDNA, she is possibly full blood Bulgarian, origin from Crimea, refugees from Strandja region, extreme South East Bulgaria.

Europe 99%
Southern Europe
Greece & Balkans 66%
Italian Peninsula 22%
Malta 7%
Baltic
Baltic 4%
Middle East & North Africa <2%
Middle East
Anatolia, Armenia, & Mesopotamia <1%
Druze <1%
Middle East Jewish
Mizrahi Jewish <1%

She is in fact matching some Bulgarians, who currently live in Strandja region, does not have close Ukrainians and Russians except from known admixed relatives. I don't see any close Greek and Albanians as was the case with the Gagauz.

Thank you, do you have full Bulgarians from Ukraine on 23andme? If yes please post one result from 23andme

Dorkymon
11-19-2020, 09:54 AM
I have seen Bulgarian results from Ukraine from predominantly admixed people with Ukrainians, Russians, etc. Here is one on FTDNA, she is possibly full blood Bulgarian, origin from Crimea, refugees from Strandja region, extreme South East Bulgaria.

Europe 99%
Southern Europe
Greece & Balkans 66%
Italian Peninsula 22%
Malta 7%
Baltic
Baltic 4%
Middle East & North Africa <2%
Middle East
Anatolia, Armenia, & Mesopotamia <1%
Druze <1%
Middle East Jewish
Mizrahi Jewish <1%

She is in fact matching some Bulgarians, who currently live in Strandja region, does not have close Ukrainians and Russians except from known admixed relatives. I don't see any close Greek and Albanians as was the case with the Gagauz.

I have Eurogenes K13 results of two Bulgarians from Taraclia and Cantemir in Moldova, who in theory should be similar, as they came together during the same migration wave.



N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


22.13
22.19
17.51
12.44
19.22
4.36
0.31
0
1.73
0
0.13
0
0


24.47
17.09
19.61
13.66
17.82
2.93
2.64
0
0.69
0.81
0.14
0
0.15

eastara
11-19-2020, 11:50 AM
I don't have any 23andMe admixture results from Bulgarians in Ukraine as I personally don't have such relatives and gave up looking with the latest changes in Ancestry Composition (which are ridiculous with showing most Bulgarians 100% Greek&Balkan).
However, the above mentioned Bulgarian from Crimea is uploaded in Gedmatch and these are her Eurogenes K13 results.
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.36
2 North_Atlantic 21.72
3 Baltic 19.41
4 West_Med 15.09
5 West_Asian 13.81
6 Red_Sea 2.75
7 East_Asian 0.52
8 Amerindian 0.34

CyrylBojarski
11-19-2020, 12:03 PM
I don't have any 23andMe admixture results from Bulgarians in Ukraine as I personally don't have such relatives and gave up looking with the latest changes in Ancestry Composition (which are ridiculous with showing most Bulgarians 100% Greek&Balkan).
However, the above mentioned Bulgarian from Crimea is uploaded in Gedmatch and these are her Eurogenes K13 results.
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.36
2 North_Atlantic 21.72
3 Baltic 19.41
4 West_Med 15.09
5 West_Asian 13.81
6 Red_Sea 2.75
7 East_Asian 0.52
8 Amerindian 0.34

quite high East Med for Bulgarian

Distance: 289.6746% / 2.89674640
Target: CrimeanBulgarian | ADC: 1x RC
71.0 Turk_Thessaloniki
29.0 Pomak_Central-Macedonia

Distance: 252.2454% / 2.52245361
Target: CrimeanBulgarian | ADC: 0.5x RC
54.1 Turk_Thessaloniki
29.4 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
16.5 Greek_Istanbul

Distance: 184.4178% / 1.84417820
Target: CrimeanBulgarian | ADC: 0.25x RC
59.5 Turk_Thessaloniki
15.1 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
10.2 Lebanese_Druze
9.9 North_German
5.3 Greek_Istanbul

eastara
11-19-2020, 12:19 PM
quite high East Med for Bulgarian

Distance: 289.6746% / 2.89674640
Target: CrimeanBulgarian | ADC: 1x RC
71.0 Turk_Thessaloniki
29.0 Pomak_Central-Macedonia

Distance: 252.2454% / 2.52245361
Target: CrimeanBulgarian | ADC: 0.5x RC
54.1 Turk_Thessaloniki
29.4 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
16.5 Greek_Istanbul

Distance: 184.4178% / 1.84417820
Target: CrimeanBulgarian | ADC: 0.25x RC
59.5 Turk_Thessaloniki
15.1 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
10.2 Lebanese_Druze
9.9 North_German
5.3 Greek_Istanbul

Yes, this is strange, but it was mentioned on Bulgarian DNA forum, that she matches other Bulgarian refugees from Eastern Thrace, now a part of Turkey. Those Turks she resembles may be with at least some Bulgarian heritage as well.

vasil
11-19-2020, 12:29 PM
quite high East Med for Bulgarian

Distance: 289.6746% / 2.89674640
Target: CrimeanBulgarian | ADC: 1x RC
71.0 Turk_Thessaloniki
29.0 Pomak_Central-Macedonia

Distance: 252.2454% / 2.52245361
Target: CrimeanBulgarian | ADC: 0.5x RC
54.1 Turk_Thessaloniki
29.4 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
16.5 Greek_Istanbul

Distance: 184.4178% / 1.84417820
Target: CrimeanBulgarian | ADC: 0.25x RC
59.5 Turk_Thessaloniki
15.1 Pomak_Central-Macedonia
10.2 Lebanese_Druze
9.9 North_German
5.3 Greek_Istanbul

That is actually pretty normal for extreme south eastern bulgaria.

vasil
11-19-2020, 12:31 PM
Bulgarians in general are very heterogeneous and are close to other people in their regions its sorta of like tribes.

CyrylBojarski
11-19-2020, 12:36 PM
That is actually pretty normal for extreme south eastern bulgaria.

Those are average results in SouthEastern Bulgaria

Distance: 94.6215% / 0.94621456
Target: Bulgaria_Southeastern | ADC: 1x RC
77.8 Moldova_South_Gagauzia
22.2 Vlach_North-Macedonia

vasil
11-19-2020, 12:42 PM
I think i have seen another result like that with the high eastern mediteranian from Burgas area which has a lot of refugees from what is today European Turkey. And if it was Turkish she wouldnt have just higher Eastern Mediteranian but also west asian. Its probably either because those places were not as empty so there is less Slavic input or because during byzantine times that area was very contested between Byzantime empire and Bulgaria so maybe mixing ocured between Byzantine and Slavic settlers from their core regions.

CyrylBojarski
11-19-2020, 01:02 PM
I think i have seen another result like that with the high eastern mediteranian from Burgas area which has a lot of refugees from what is today European Turkey. And if it was Turkish she wouldnt have just higher Eastern Mediteranian but also west asian. Its probably either because those places were not as empty so there is less Slavic input or because during byzantine times that area was very contested between Byzantime empire and Bulgaria so maybe mixing ocured between Byzantine and Slavic settlers from their core regions.

Gedmatch calculators can confuse East Med with West Asian, East Asian with Siberian, so that means nothing, for example I have 2% East Med and 0% Near Eastern on K36 with 23andme raw data, but 2% Near Eastern and 0% East Med on K36 with AncestryDNA data

vasil
11-19-2020, 01:12 PM
I really dont want to get into it, with you its always the same with trying to bend over backwards to find some turkish admixture in bulgarians and now the gedmatch calculator has to be confused just because you want it to be so.

CyrylBojarski
11-19-2020, 01:20 PM
I really dont want to get into it, with you its always the same with trying to bend over backwards to find some turkish admixture in bulgarians and now the gedmatch calculator has to be confused just because you want it to be so.

I did not say she has Turkish admix, but if she does not have exaggerated West Asian, that does not mean she does not have it. I have datas from two companies and my similiar components are confused on Gedmatch

td120
11-19-2020, 02:23 PM
Cyryl, these are the countries that 23andme ships to:

https://eu.customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/204712980-What-Countries-Do-You-Ship-To-

No wonder ethnic groups from many countries are very underrepresented in 23andme customer base .

I have no "full Bulgarian" Ukrainian or Moldovan match on 23andme either .

On Family Tree DNA I have several Ukrainian-Bulgarians (admixed with Ukrainians to various degrees) . Their Bulgarian ancestry points to Thrace :


1.

Europe
95%


Greece & Balkans
46%

Italian Peninsula
23%



Magyar
5%

West Slavic
21%

European Jewish
0%

Ashkenazi Jewish
<1%

Middle East & North Africa
5%

Middle East Jewish
0%

Mizrahi Jewish
<1%

Caucasus
1%

Southern Caucasus
<1%

Middle East
4%

Southern Levant
<4%


...............

2.

Europe
98%


Greece & Balkans
39%

Italian Peninsula
32%


East Slavic
9%

West Slavic
16%

Finnish
1%


European Jewish
0%

Ashkenazi Jewish
<1%

Western Europe
1%

Central Europe
<1%

Scandinavia
<1%

Middle East & North Africa
2%

Middle East Jewish
0%

Mizrahi Jewish
<0%

Caucasus
1%

Southern Caucasus
<2%

Middle East
1%

Northern Levant
<1%


..............

3.

Europe
96%


Greece & Balkans
26%

Iberian Peninsula
8%

Italian Peninsula
3%

Baltic
9%


East Slavic
11%

West Slavic
35%


Ashkenazi Jewish
<1%

Western Europe
4%

Central Europe
4%

Middle East & North Africa
4%


Middle East
4%

Anatolia, Armenia, & Mesopotamia
<2%

Sephardic Jewish
<3%

Dorkymon
11-19-2020, 06:35 PM
Cyryl, these are the countries that 23andme ships to:

https://eu.customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/204712980-What-Countries-Do-You-Ship-To-

No wonder ethnic groups from many countries are very underrepresented in 23andme customer base .

I have no "full Bulgarian" Ukrainian or Moldovan match on 23andme either .

On Family Tree DNA I have several Ukrainian-Bulgarians (admixed with Ukrainians to various degrees) . Their Bulgarian ancestry points to Thrace :


1.

Europe
95%


Greece & Balkans
46%

Italian Peninsula
23%



Magyar
5%

West Slavic
21%

European Jewish
0%

Ashkenazi Jewish
<1%

Middle East & North Africa
5%

Middle East Jewish
0%

Mizrahi Jewish
<1%

Caucasus
1%

Southern Caucasus
<1%

Middle East
4%

Southern Levant
<4%


...............

2.

Europe
98%


Greece & Balkans
39%

Italian Peninsula
32%


East Slavic
9%

West Slavic
16%

Finnish
1%


European Jewish
0%

Ashkenazi Jewish
<1%

Western Europe
1%

Central Europe
<1%

Scandinavia
<1%

Middle East & North Africa
2%

Middle East Jewish
0%

Mizrahi Jewish
<0%

Caucasus
1%

Southern Caucasus
<2%

Middle East
1%

Northern Levant
<1%


..............

3.

Europe
96%


Greece & Balkans
26%

Iberian Peninsula
8%

Italian Peninsula
3%

Baltic
9%


East Slavic
11%

West Slavic
35%


Ashkenazi Jewish
<1%

Western Europe
4%

Central Europe
4%

Middle East & North Africa
4%


Middle East
4%

Anatolia, Armenia, & Mesopotamia
<2%

Sephardic Jewish
<3%





What do you get on Eurogenes K13 and which region in Bulgaria are your ancestors from?

td120
11-19-2020, 09:09 PM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3539-Eurogenes-K13-Results&p=393487&viewfull=1#post393487

Call it 100% Thrace (Western, Eastern and extreme NE Thrace).

Aspar
11-19-2020, 09:32 PM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3539-Eurogenes-K13-Results&p=393487&viewfull=1#post393487

Call it 100% Thrace (Western, Eastern and extreme NE Thrace).

I have a kit of Bulgarian with origins from here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brashlyan) if you would like to compare:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 25.78
2 Baltic 21.18
3 West_Med 20.73
4 North_Atlantic 16.57
5 West_Asian 12.16
6 South_Asian 1.55
7 Red_Sea 1.51


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek_Thessaly @ 6.031389
2 Bulgarian @ 8.842652
3 Romanian @ 12.148840
4 Central_Greek @ 12.449067
5 East_Sicilian @ 13.912423
6 Italian_Abruzzo @ 14.615704
7 Ashkenazi @ 15.254399
8 West_Sicilian @ 15.343582
9 Tuscan @ 16.401937
10 Serbian @ 16.920977
11 South_Italian @ 17.223738
12 North_Italian @ 20.200314
13 Moldavian @ 22.161983
14 Algerian_Jewish @ 22.607273
15 Italian_Jewish @ 23.197289
16 Sephardic_Jewish @ 23.639708
17 Croatian @ 25.695040
18 Hungarian @ 26.277533
19 Tunisian_Jewish @ 27.106253
20 Libyan_Jewish @ 27.376951

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79% Bulgarian + 21% Cyprian @ 4.12
2 91.8% Greek_Thessaly + 8.2% Erzya @ 4.34
3 75.7% Bulgarian + 24.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.49
4 91.4% Greek_Thessaly + 8.6% Southwest_Russian @ 4.5
5 91.4% Greek_Thessaly + 8.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.51
6 83.6% Bulgarian + 16.4% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.53
7 83.2% Bulgarian + 16.8% Samaritan @ 4.54
8 68.1% Greek_Thessaly + 31.9% Bulgarian @ 4.57
9 92.5% Greek_Thessaly + 7.5% Kargopol_Russian @ 4.58
10 93.3% Greek_Thessaly + 6.7% Lithuanian @ 4.6
11 67.2% Bulgarian + 32.8% Ashkenazi @ 4.6
12 92.4% Greek_Thessaly + 7.6% Estonian_Polish @ 4.62
13 92.5% Greek_Thessaly + 7.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 4.66
14 91.4% Greek_Thessaly + 8.6% Ukrainian @ 4.67
15 92.8% Greek_Thessaly + 7.2% Belorussian @ 4.67
16 93.5% Greek_Thessaly + 6.5% Chuvash @ 4.69
17 87.8% Greek_Thessaly + 12.2% Moldavian @ 4.75
18 91.7% Greek_Thessaly + 8.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.77
19 94.5% Greek_Thessaly + 5.5% Mari @ 4.79
20 93% Greek_Thessaly + 7% Polish @ 4.82


Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +50% Greek_Thessaly @ 5.517769


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +25% Bulgarian +25% Cyprian @ 4.755249


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++
1 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Ukrainian @ 4.325881
2 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Southwest_Russian @ 4.657716
3 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Moldavian @ 4.662836
4 Bulgarian + Croatian + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly @ 4.678427
5 Bulgarian + Cyprian + South_Italian + Ukrainian @ 4.749439
6 Bulgarian + Erzya + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian @ 4.754463
7 Bulgarian + Bulgarian + Bulgarian + Cyprian @ 4.755249
8 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.760032
9 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Cyprian + Ukrainian @ 4.809966
10 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + South_Polish @ 4.838278
11 Central_Greek + Cyprian + Estonian_Polish + Greek_Thessaly @ 4.842088
12 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.846975
13 Cyprian + Estonian_Polish + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly @ 4.849539
14 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Lithuanian + South_Italian @ 4.851923
15 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Cyprian + Ukrainian @ 4.888885
16 Bulgarian + Cyprian + East_Sicilian + Ukrainian @ 4.904184
17 Central_Greek + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Ukrainian @ 4.958502
18 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Estonian_Polish + South_Italian @ 4.958809
19 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.961840
20 Bulgarian + Cyprian + South_Italian + Southwest_Russian @ 4.990791

CyrylBojarski
11-19-2020, 09:41 PM
I have a kit of Bulgarian with origins from here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brashlyan) if you would like to compare:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 25.78
2 Baltic 21.18
3 West_Med 20.73
4 North_Atlantic 16.57
5 West_Asian 12.16
6 South_Asian 1.55
7 Red_Sea 1.51


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek_Thessaly @ 6.031389
2 Bulgarian @ 8.842652
3 Romanian @ 12.148840
4 Central_Greek @ 12.449067
5 East_Sicilian @ 13.912423
6 Italian_Abruzzo @ 14.615704
7 Ashkenazi @ 15.254399
8 West_Sicilian @ 15.343582
9 Tuscan @ 16.401937
10 Serbian @ 16.920977
11 South_Italian @ 17.223738
12 North_Italian @ 20.200314
13 Moldavian @ 22.161983
14 Algerian_Jewish @ 22.607273
15 Italian_Jewish @ 23.197289
16 Sephardic_Jewish @ 23.639708
17 Croatian @ 25.695040
18 Hungarian @ 26.277533
19 Tunisian_Jewish @ 27.106253
20 Libyan_Jewish @ 27.376951

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79% Bulgarian + 21% Cyprian @ 4.12
2 91.8% Greek_Thessaly + 8.2% Erzya @ 4.34
3 75.7% Bulgarian + 24.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.49
4 91.4% Greek_Thessaly + 8.6% Southwest_Russian @ 4.5
5 91.4% Greek_Thessaly + 8.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.51
6 83.6% Bulgarian + 16.4% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.53
7 83.2% Bulgarian + 16.8% Samaritan @ 4.54
8 68.1% Greek_Thessaly + 31.9% Bulgarian @ 4.57
9 92.5% Greek_Thessaly + 7.5% Kargopol_Russian @ 4.58
10 93.3% Greek_Thessaly + 6.7% Lithuanian @ 4.6
11 67.2% Bulgarian + 32.8% Ashkenazi @ 4.6
12 92.4% Greek_Thessaly + 7.6% Estonian_Polish @ 4.62
13 92.5% Greek_Thessaly + 7.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 4.66
14 91.4% Greek_Thessaly + 8.6% Ukrainian @ 4.67
15 92.8% Greek_Thessaly + 7.2% Belorussian @ 4.67
16 93.5% Greek_Thessaly + 6.5% Chuvash @ 4.69
17 87.8% Greek_Thessaly + 12.2% Moldavian @ 4.75
18 91.7% Greek_Thessaly + 8.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.77
19 94.5% Greek_Thessaly + 5.5% Mari @ 4.79
20 93% Greek_Thessaly + 7% Polish @ 4.82


Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +50% Greek_Thessaly @ 5.517769


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +25% Bulgarian +25% Cyprian @ 4.755249


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++
1 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Ukrainian @ 4.325881
2 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Southwest_Russian @ 4.657716
3 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Moldavian @ 4.662836
4 Bulgarian + Croatian + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly @ 4.678427
5 Bulgarian + Cyprian + South_Italian + Ukrainian @ 4.749439
6 Bulgarian + Erzya + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian @ 4.754463
7 Bulgarian + Bulgarian + Bulgarian + Cyprian @ 4.755249
8 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.760032
9 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Cyprian + Ukrainian @ 4.809966
10 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + South_Polish @ 4.838278
11 Central_Greek + Cyprian + Estonian_Polish + Greek_Thessaly @ 4.842088
12 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.846975
13 Cyprian + Estonian_Polish + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly @ 4.849539
14 Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Lithuanian + South_Italian @ 4.851923
15 Ashkenazi + Bulgarian + Cyprian + Ukrainian @ 4.888885
16 Bulgarian + Cyprian + East_Sicilian + Ukrainian @ 4.904184
17 Central_Greek + Cyprian + Greek_Thessaly + Ukrainian @ 4.958502
18 Bulgarian + Cyprian + Estonian_Polish + South_Italian @ 4.958809
19 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 4.961840
20 Bulgarian + Cyprian + South_Italian + Southwest_Russian @ 4.990791

Maybe my Bulgarian ancestors were from Thrace too, I am getting Greek_Thessaly instead of Bulgarian on G25 as accurate split and representation of my Balkan ancestry

eastara
11-20-2020, 05:33 AM
I can't bet about mountain Strandja, but there were definitely no Bulgarians around Constantinople at the time of Ottoman conquest. All who lived there before the Balkan wars were new settlers somewhere during Ottoman times. Furthermore many Bulgarians from that region, which could be considered more autochthonous were convinced to migrate to Bessarabia, Crimea and other newly acquired Russian territories. After the Balkan wars most Greeks, Turks and newly settled Tatars left and new Bulgarians mainly from Eastern Thrace took over. It is very probable some came initially from Thessaly, at some point it was inhabited predominantly by Vlach and Bulgarians, Greeks were mainly city dwellers as well as the Turks. It is known some continental Greeks have more West Asian and East Mediterranean due to migrations from Anatolia and Middle East(like Syria) in Byzantine times, so this could be transferred to the Slavs there. Same thing with the Gagauz, slightly more West Asian is what is differentiating them from Bulgarians.

Dorian9
11-20-2020, 05:53 PM
It is known some continental Greeks have more West Asian and East Mediterranean due to migrations from Anatolia and Middle East(like Syria) in Byzantine times, so this could be transferred to the Slavs there.

I wonder which migrations are you referring to? I know of Mardaites being moved to Peloponnese provinces (Mani is often mentioned when it comes to them ), to the Nicopolis province(Epirus+West Greece) ,Cephalonia and Armenians in Crete. The non-heretic/Byzantine Greek migrations would be more I guess and the main reason for these shifts but when it comes to such I haven't found anything detailed like mass migrations from X to Y place other than stories of noble families/individuals moving to various Greek regions.

As for this admixture in Bulgaria I'm not sure why it should have arrived through Greek mix ,Thrace had similar movements , Paulicians , Jacobites and Messalians.

xripkan
11-20-2020, 06:34 PM
I wonder which migrations are you referring to? I know of Mardaites being moved to Peloponnese provinces (Mani is often mentioned when it comes to them ), to the Nicopolis province(Epirus+West Greece) ,Cephalonia and Armenians in Crete. The non-heretic/Byzantine Greek migrations would be more I guess and the main reason for these shifts but when it comes to such I haven't found anything detailed like mass migrations from X to Y place other than stories of noble families/individuals moving to various Greek regions.

As for this admixture in Bulgaria I'm not sure why it should have arrived through Greek mix ,Thrace had similar movements , Paulicians , Jacobites and Messalians.

There was another Anatolian migration except that of Madraites during 9th century. Actually it was a population exchange that Byzantine emperors implemented between Slavs and Anatolians. It took place mostly in Peloponnese and some other parts of Mainland Greece.

Johnny ola
11-20-2020, 07:15 PM
The west Asian admixture in Crete is more Anatolian-Levantine rather Armenian like. Thought some Toponyms are obviously Armenian related.

Dorian9
11-20-2020, 10:34 PM
There was another Anatolian migration except that of Madraites during 9th century. Actually it was a population exchange that Byzantine emperors implemented between Slavs and Anatolians. It took place mostly in Peloponnese and some other parts of Mainland Greece.

True ,forgot that but nevertheless If this happened in the south I can't see how they could end up in Thrace unless there's something I'm missing and they spreaded in more parts other than South(?)

eastara
11-21-2020, 09:20 AM
True ,forgot that but nevertheless If this happened in the south I can't see how they could end up in Thrace unless there's something I'm missing and they spreaded in more parts other than South(?)

Forceful resettlement of Anatolians and Middle Easterners was performed by the government during Byzantine times into Balkan areas controlled by the Empire. So if those people were not Greek speaking at arrival, they had to Hellenise first. Such recent admixture among Bulgarian is probably indirect, however there could be regional variations remaining from Early Medieval times.
Regarding Thrace, the lowland was depopulated at the time of Ottoman arrival. The reason was the Crusades and the raids of the Second Bulgarian empire at the time of Kaloyan, which is documented in history. Further it could be also the Ottoman raids and the Big plague epidemics in 14th c. For that reason the Ottomans settled there Crimean Tatars and Turkomans at the very beginning of the conquest. For several centuries lowland Thrace(excluding the cities) was almost completely Turkified until Bulgarians and some other ethnicities started coming down the mountains.

CyrylBojarski
11-21-2020, 01:13 PM
It could be ancient though.

It can be ancient Bulgar, because this category contains central asian admixture, my ancestors were from Eastern Bulgaria, I read Bulgars settled there

CyrylBojarski
11-22-2020, 06:46 PM
Code:
Germans:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.0487 73,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295 ,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
Proto-Bulgars:Alan_MA,0.1099532,0.1045994,-0.025418,-0.0089794,-0.0262818,0.0051316,0.0054522,-0.0072458,-0.0456908,-0.0248206,0.0028256,0.0098314,-0.0166796,-0.0065784,0.005809,-0.002758,0.005372,-0.0059036,-0.0057318,0.0034768,0.003893,0.006529,0.0015532,-0.0004094,-0.0036644
Magyars:Uyelgi,0.09675,-0.123387,0.095223,0.087533,-0.075399,-0.045459,0.031609,0.0040385,-0.023418,-0.0537595,0.055131,-0.023229,0.019772,-0.0477555,-0.0329805,0.00537,-0.0099095,-0.0214735,-0.0309845,-0.03189,-0.0142245,0.0185475,0.012756,-0.0018675,0.0141305
Slavs:Scythian_HUN:DA195,0.117238,0.138112,0.03695 8,0.013566,0.03139,0.003904,-0.000235,-0.000692,0.008385,0.015855,-0.003248,-0.003297,-0.001189,0.000688,-0.016015,0.011535,0.011995,0.006968,0.007416,-0.000625,-0.011605,-0.007666,0.008381,-0.004579,-0.003952
Slavs:Scythian_HUN:DA197,0.124067,0.145221,0.06448 8,0.034884,0.037545,0.010598,-0.003995,0.011538,0.008795,0.00328,0.003735,-0.001199,-0.00223,0.010046,-0.00855,0.004508,0.011213,-0.006334,0.001885,0.000125,0.002371,0.000742,0.000 493,-0.008314,-0.006466
Slavs:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569,0.12862,0.129988,0.06 8259,0.046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.014076,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706
Romans:Rome_Late_Antiquity,0.1130169,0.148775,0.00 57355,-0.0298371,0.0238762,-0.012399,-0.0004504,-0.0026633,0.006792,0.0239033,0.0014005,0.0050268,-0.0083498,-0.003108,-0.0045523,-0.0004917,0.0042865,0.0005385,0.0032735,-0.0014902,-0.000993,0.0016075,-0.0009192,0.0002611,-0.0012474

thanks to user andre for creating this model

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.6088% / 0.01608786
56.2 Slavs
36.6 Romans
7.0 Proto-Bulgars
0.2 Magyars


Target: Gagauz
Distance: 1.8856% / 0.01885616
43.8 Slavs
41.8 Romans
14.4 Proto-Bulgars


Target: Hungarian
Distance: 1.4064% / 0.01406384
68.6 Slavs
30.0 Germans
1.0 Romans
0.4 Magyars


Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.8214% / 0.01821384
68.2 Slavs
31.8 Romans



As you can see Bulgarians and Gagauz people have Irano-Turkic (Alanic) admix, that other South Slavic populations do not have.

DgidguBidgu
11-22-2020, 08:00 PM
thanks to user andre for creating this model

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.6088% / 0.01608786
56.2 Slavs
36.6 Romans
7.0 Proto-Bulgars
0.2 Magyars


Target: Gagauz
Distance: 1.8856% / 0.01885616
43.8 Slavs
41.8 Romans
14.4 Proto-Bulgars


Target: Hungarian
Distance: 1.4064% / 0.01406384
68.6 Slavs
30.0 Germans
1.0 Romans
0.4 Magyars


Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.8214% / 0.01821384
68.2 Slavs
31.8 Romans



As you can see Bulgarians and Gagauz people have Irano-Turkic (Alanic) admix, that other South Slavic populations do not have.

In the official surveys of the Bulgarians no such mixtures were found.
If you like to spam unproven nonsense go to Polish chats, because there are certainly more than 70% Asian mixes there in northern Europe than in the southern Slavs.

Riverman
11-22-2020, 09:52 PM
thanks to user andre for creating this model

Even I did get 1,xx percent Proto-Bulgar with that model and I never get anything East Asian or generally non-West Eurasian. I do get some Caucasian regularly though, or alternatively high Balkan, so in a way this makes sense:

Distance: 1.1287% / 0.01128692
Target: Proto-Bulgars:Alan_MA | ADC: 0.25x RC
57.9 Chechen
17.3 Darginian
10.0 Turkish_Istanbul
8.0 Azeri_Dagestan
6.3 Sardinian
0.5 Spanish_La_Rioja



Distance to: Proto-Bulgars:Alan_MA
0.02345568 Chechen
0.02671252 Ingushian
0.02743784 Kumyk
0.03236912 Adygei
0.03298160 Tabasaran
0.03319963 Balkar
0.03432252 Kabardin
0.03447869 Circassian
0.03541378 Karachay
0.03555941 Cherkes
0.03700170 Azeri_Dagestan
0.03927941 Avar
0.04030192 Lak
0.04082349 Abazin
0.04089230 Kaitag
0.04137901 North_Ossetian
0.04357817 Ossetian
0.04410925 Kubachinian
0.04697507 Darginian
0.05475201 Turkish_Istanbul
0.05502467 Turkish_East
0.05719367 Abkhasian
0.06059594 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.06114215 Azeri
0.06120918 Turkish_Central

Those Proto-Bulgar coordinates are totally Caucasian/Alan-related.

CyrylBojarski
11-22-2020, 09:57 PM
Even I did get 1,xx percent Proto-Bulgar with that model and I never get anything East Asian or generally non-West Eurasian. I do get some Caucasian regularly though, or alternatively high Balkan, so in a way this makes sense:




Those Proto-Bulgar coordinates are totally Caucasian/Alan-related.

Yes, because ancient Bulgars carry both Iranic and Turkic genetic, they were heavily admixed with Alans, those Proto-Bulgar coordinates can be modelled as 75% Iranic and 25% Turkic

DgidguBidgu
11-22-2020, 11:08 PM
I know you want to think Bulgarians are full Paleo-Balkan, deal with that, Bulgarians have Slavic and Irano-Turkic admix


By "Slavic" you mean Baltic and Asian.
Because the Bulgarians were the first Slavs (according to the archaic analytical language structure of Bulgarian) and they evidently Slavonized the Northeast Asians, including your Polish ancestors.
That Turkic admixture can come only from your Asian ancestors which spoke non IE language before to meet The Bulgarians!:)

CyrylBojarski
11-22-2020, 11:14 PM
By "Slavic" you mean Baltic and Asian.
Because the Bulgarians were the first Slavs (according to the archaic analytical language structure of Bulgarian) and they evidently Slavonized the Northeast Asians, including your Polish ancestors.
That Turkic admixture can come only from your Asian ancestors which spoke non IE language before to meet The Bulgarians!:)

Are you serious? Poles are 0% asians, almost fully Slavs with some genes from East Germanic tribes

td120
11-22-2020, 11:24 PM
https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/c_fill,g_auto,w_1200,h_675,ar_16:9/https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets %2F200220104718-01-melbourne-train-derailment-0220.jpg

Moderator
11-22-2020, 11:27 PM
Once again, a reminder to stay on topic and avoid personalization of discussions and accusatory language at all times.

CyrylBojarski
11-23-2020, 07:59 PM
By "Slavic" you mean Baltic and Asian.
Because the Bulgarians were the first Slavs (according to the archaic analytical language structure of Bulgarian) and they evidently Slavonized the Northeast Asians, including your Polish ancestors.
That Turkic admixture can come only from your Asian ancestors which spoke non IE language before to meet The Bulgarians!:)

I recommend you watching this video




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvPjfhHhQ04

CyrylBojarski
11-24-2020, 06:41 PM
Forceful resettlement of Anatolians and Middle Easterners was performed by the government during Byzantine times into Balkan areas controlled by the Empire. So if those people were not Greek speaking at arrival, they had to Hellenise first. Such recent admixture among Bulgarian is probably indirect, however there could be regional variations remaining from Early Medieval times.
Regarding Thrace, the lowland was depopulated at the time of Ottoman arrival. The reason was the Crusades and the raids of the Second Bulgarian empire at the time of Kaloyan, which is documented in history. Further it could be also the Ottoman raids and the Big plague epidemics in 14th c. For that reason the Ottomans settled there Crimean Tatars and Turkomans at the very beginning of the conquest. For several centuries lowland Thrace(excluding the cities) was almost completely Turkified until Bulgarians and some other ethnicities started coming down the mountains.

From which ethnicity from Byzantine Empire Bulgarians have the highest level of genetic admixture?

CyrylBojarski
11-28-2020, 12:19 PM
The best fit for Bulgarians

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.0822% / 0.01082211
50.0 Slav
20.2 BGR_IA
20.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
6.8 GRC_Mycenaean
2.8 Turkic

Slav is Slavic DNA (CZE_Early_Slav and KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro)

BGR_IA is Thracian

TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA is Byzantine admix from Anatolians

GRC_Mycenaean is Greek

Turkic (RUS_Nomad, Onoghur sample from Great Bulgaria)




Myself
Target: Cyryl_scaled
Distance: 2.1344% / 0.02134435
86.0 Slav
13.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
1.0 Turkic

Hawk
12-19-2020, 12:59 PM
Question to Bulgarians but also Macedonians,

How much this subclade is found among Bulgarians/Macedonians? https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/

eastara
12-20-2020, 01:57 AM
Question to Bulgarians but also Macedonians,

How much this subclade is found among Bulgarians/Macedonians? https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/

There is only one person in the Bulgarian DNA project, who is proven L241 by SNP testing, but there are a few strongly predicted. DYS464a,b = 16,16 is a strong indicator for this branch. Just now came the 111 STR for another person, who is waiting Big Y. He is very close to this branch:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A7065/
There are also a couple of Bulgarians in the Balkan Mountain project proven FGC76265*.