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Rathna
02-06-2014, 10:15 AM
164220 Katchadourian, Aintab, Turkey Turkey R1b1a2
and
N70609 Turkey R1b1a2
aren't tested.
174259 Tour-Sarkissian, Hadjin, Turkey Turkey R1b1a2
8 10 10 8 11 10
11 13 11 11 12 12
gets probably the ancestral values of R-M269*
207685 Kortoshian, Kharpert, Turkey Turkey R1b1a2
8 10 10 8 11 10
11 13 10 11 12 12
demonstrates the mutation in DYS572 from 11 to 10, which link this Armenian cluster to the Jewish one:
Jewish cluster
8 10 10 8 11 10
11 13 10 11 12 12

131645 Garabed Ekizian, b.c. 1815, Harpout, Ottoman Emp. Turkey R1b1a2
8 10 10 8 11 9
11 13 10 11 12 12
and
134423 Garabed N. Srabian 1871? Hussenig, Kharpert,Turkey Armenia R1b1a2
8 10 10 8 11 9
11 13 10 11 12 12
demonstrate a mutation in DYS511 from 10 to 9.
Lo Piccolo
8 10 10 8 11 10
11 13 11 11 12 12
retains the original values.
The Italian clusters with YCAII=17-23
YCAII=17-23
I
8 10 10 8 11 10
11 13 11 11 12 12
II
8 10 10 8 12 10
11 13 11 11 12 12
have the first the original values and the second a mutation in DYF406F1 from 11 to 12.
The Irish cluster is the most varied
Irish
8 11 10 8 12 10
11 13 11 11 12 11
with DYS537 from 10 to 11, DYF406F1 from 11 to 12 and also DYS565 from 12 to 11, but
Fiozzo
8 10 10 8 10 9
11 13 11 11 12 12
retains probably the oldest configuration
*8 10 10 8 10 10
with a mutation in DYS511 from 10 to 9.
Which the conclusions? It seems to me that also for this survived cluster of R-M269* Italy retains the highest variance also as to the Armenian haplotypes.

Rathna
02-06-2014, 10:49 AM
I let you note that 174259 is an Armenian cluster different from the other haplotypes which belong to another Armenian cluster and that its values in YHRD format are very close to mine (I am R-Z2110*, which is a sister haplogroup from R-M269*, I through L23/L49/Z2110*, the other through PF7558/PF7562/PF7563 and let's apart the question of L150, except for DYS456 and DYS458). We cannot know by YHRD if these haplotypes belong to the M269 or to the L23 haplogroup, but the data at our disposal seems to bring us to Balkans-Western Europe:
1 15 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 19 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - >>
1 of 220 East Croatia, Croatia [Croatian] Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European Europe
14 13 29 24 10 13 12 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 19 23 12 1 >>
1 of 101 Fortaleza, Brazil [Admixed Brazilian] Admixed Latin America
15 13 29 24 10 13 13 11,14 12 12 15 19 15 19 23 12 1 >>
This haplotype has DYS393=13 and could belong it too to these haplotypes, but more likely to some subclade of M269. Anyway these haplotypes are very rare.
I have expressed many times in the past that my values, above all DYS19=15 and DYS391=10 could be, instead of mutations from the modal 14-11, actually the original values, but also in this case we cannot say how they could be due to "mutations around the modal".