PDA

View Full Version : R1b Z2103 in Britain



Steve
08-27-2020, 08:51 PM
I have tested with yseq and living dna and I am R1b Z2103. As I live in England, have a Anglo Saxon surname and can trace my direct male line back to the 1600s in England what is the current theory of how Z2103 got to the UK? I am aware that it is rare in England and is of Eastern Europe origin. Did it arrive in the neolithic for example and just didn't mutate like r1b L21 or is it a later arrival? Where is it most commonly found today?

My results areQuick results summary:
R1b-M343 Orientation Panel
P312 C-
L51 G-
U106 C-
Z2103 C+
M343 A+
M269 C+
R1b-Z2103 +
Z2106 G-
CTS9219 G-
FGC14589 T+
Y19434 C-
FGC14625 G-
FGC14590 -
L943 -
Y18687 -

Many thanks

dosas
08-27-2020, 09:08 PM
Did you upload to YFULL?

Ayetooey
08-27-2020, 10:49 PM
Descendant of a romanised Illyrian/Thracian soldier would be my guess. Don't know how accurate this map is.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-Z2103.png

Steve
08-29-2020, 01:25 PM
Did you upload to YFULL?

No I haven't. How do I do that and why?
Thanks.

Steve
08-29-2020, 01:27 PM
Descendant of a romanised Illyrian/Thracian soldier would be my guess. Don't know how accurate this map is.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-Z2103.png

I've heard that idea before. I believe Britainsdna lead Alistair Moffat believes that 1 million men in the UK have DNA from the soldiers of Rome Inc R1b Z2103.

dosas
08-29-2020, 01:40 PM
Did you upload to YFULL?

No I haven't. How do I do that and why?
Thanks.

You can upload your .bam file or .csv (or both), it's a very large database and one of your best bets for a match.

www.yfull.com

Steve
08-30-2020, 03:54 PM
So is r1b z2103 a Greek strain of r1b or balkan?

dosas
08-30-2020, 04:54 PM
So is r1b z2103 a Greek strain of r1b or balkan?

You cannot assign modern ethnicities to clades as old as that. Z2103 is found in Eastern Euro., the Balkans, Greece and Turkey, Armenia, the Caucasus, etc.

Steve
08-30-2020, 09:17 PM
OK. So if I wanted to know what group of people I most likely descend from eg Thracian, Yamanya, Celt etc this isn't possible, ie too much of a guess?

razyn
08-30-2020, 11:51 PM
Several years ago I speculated* that it had to do with wine culture moving west, from the Caucasus to the Mediterranean, after Early Farming had taken hold. So Z2103 didn't migrate with the ancestors of the L51 side of R1b. Those dairy pastoralists, boatmen, metal prospectors, cowboys and so on came a little later -- and mostly with separate language families (i.e., separate from Greek and Albanian). Also, from "the steppe" largely around the north side of the Carpathians, not up the Danube through the Iron Gates -- or other routes, facilitated by rivers, from the Black Sea to the Hungarian Plain.

Not that I've been proven right, but it's one framework for thinking about it.

*. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2711-Does-the-connection-of-M269-with-copper-skills-go-right-back-to-its-invention&p=44053&viewfull=1#post44053

Silesian
08-31-2020, 12:41 AM
OK. So if I wanted to know what group of people I most likely descend from eg Thracian, Yamanya, Celt etc this isn't possible, ie too much of a guess?
Along time ago I speculated that we are not connected in anyway with the Pan-Indian-Eastern European aka Corded Ware L51+ R1a+ cluster.
We form a totally separate group of cultures. Our own horses(yet to be proven by genetics), metal tanged daggers, hammer bone pins, spiral copper and silver hair rings, pottery. Cultural burial statues like-The Kernosovskiy idol (Керносовский идол), dated to the mid 3rd millennium BC.(types of weapons, animals and other graphic scenes)


Relief
face: deep-set eyes, nose, chin; depicts a mustache with the ends down.
weapons: bow and arrow, mace ;
tools: axes, a hoe , a spoon for pouring metal, a casting mold.
animals - a bull, two horses, turtles.
others: in the center of the stele - a man with a tail chases two animals, on the side edge - a phallic scene - a man (with a penis) and a woman at the time of coitus.
ornamental patterns: rows of triangles, zigzag lines.
On the sides of the stele, in individual drawings and whole compositions, there are, in all likelihood, scenes from myths dedicated to the times of the creation and development of the world. Zoomorphic features can be traced in the appearance of the Kernos Idol: a tail on the back, a frequently occurring image of a bull on the surface of the statue itself.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/%D0%9A%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D 1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BB.pn g



You have to refine your snp downstream R1b-Z2103+ very broad group.

Yamnaya-Z2103+ Afanasievo-Z2103+ Poltavka Z2103+ Catacombe Z2103+ Eastern Bell Beaker Z2103+ Vucedol Z2103+ North West Iran Z2103+ Armenian Z2103+Latini-Italic tribe Z2103+ Early Sarmatians Z2103+ (Outlier in Sintashta culture)

razyn
08-31-2020, 01:38 PM
Along time ago I speculated that we are not connected in any way with the Pan-Indian-Eastern European aka Corded Ware L51+ R1a+ cluster.
We form a totally separate group of cultures.

But genetically, R1b-L51+ remains more closely related to all of R1b (including anciently far-flung descendants of R1b-Z2103+) than to any of R1a (including the R1a Corded Ware family that has been living next door, even if that's been for several millennia).

You are patrilineally more closely related to your own grandfather -- and to any YDNA descendant of his -- than to your second cousin (who has a different grandfather).

Lancer
09-04-2020, 02:49 PM
I agree with this statement:

"You cannot assign modern ethnicities to clades as old as that. Z2103 is found in Eastern Euro., the Balkans, Greece and Turkey, Armenia, the Caucasus, etc."

During this period, major technological developments increased the mobility of populations. The development of drafted chariots and wagons in the Near East and Pontic-Caspian Steppe enabled movement over land (21). Advances in sailing technologies facilitated easier and more frequent navigation across the Mediterranean (3, 6), enabling the expansion of Greek, Phoenician, and Punic colonies across the “Great Sea” and beyond in the late Bronze Age and Iron Age. The first horse traders developed from this region.
Here is an older Migration Map i found.


Here are thoughts from the FTDNA forums:

One route is the northern route, from the Russian Plain to the west, ~4600 - 4400 ybp; another, concurrently along Asia Minor and the Middle East westward with the same two subclades; and yet another which will populate Europe the most, migrating along North Africa-Mediter- ranean Sea via ancient Egypt to the Pyrenees, to arrive ~4800 ybp. On this route the R1b-V88 tribe split off and went south, eventually to Central Africa (mainly Cameroon and Chad judg- ing by their present-day distribution), where a common ancestor of the current R1b-V88 haplotype lived ~4400 ybp.



The L23 base short Caucasian haplotype in Figure 7 fits exactly to the above haplotype (the matching alleles are marked in bold). A common ancestor of the L23 subclade lived ~6200 ybp (Klyosov, 2010d, 2011a). 81 Caucasian L23 haplotypes containing 425 mutations from their base haplotype, give 425/ 81/.035 = 150 → 176 conditional generations, or 4400 490 years to their common ancestor. The “younger” date (compared with the “age” of L23 of about 6200 ybp) can be explained by a detailed consideration of an extended series of 107 of R-L23 haplotypes listed in the FTDNA Project (see the legend in Figure 8). The tree in Figure 8 splits into two parts. On the left are 38 haplotypes, with the base 12 24 14 11 12 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 - 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 16 18 - 11 11 19 23 16 16 18 17 36 37 12 12 - 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 23 23 15 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 (L23, branch)

eastara
09-05-2020, 04:53 AM
I have tested with yseq and living dna and I am R1b Z2103. As I live in England, have a Anglo Saxon surname and can trace my direct male line back to the 1600s in England what is the current theory of how Z2103 got to the UK? I am aware that it is rare in England and is of Eastern Europe origin. Did it arrive in the neolithic for example and just didn't mutate like r1b L21 or is it a later arrival? Where is it most commonly found today?

My results areQuick results summary:
R1b-M343 Orientation Panel
P312 C-
L51 G-
U106 C-
Z2103 C+
M343 A+
M269 C+
R1b-Z2103 +
Z2106 G-
CTS9219 G-
FGC14589 T+
Y19434 C-
FGC14625 G-
FGC14590 -
L943 -
Y18687 -

Many thanks

As far as I see you are FGC14589+ which is more or less equivalent to L584. This branch is not common in Europe, it is more Anatolian/Caucasus. There is also a Jewish cluster, is it possible to have such ancestry? In any case you need a deeper SNP test like Big Y to know whom are you related to in more recent times.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y13369/

dosas
09-05-2020, 05:16 AM
This is the L584 'family' on YFULL:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L584/

Silesian
09-05-2020, 10:45 AM
But genetically, R1b-L51+ remains more closely related to all of R1b (including anciently far-flung descendants of R1b-Z2103+) than to any of R1a (including the R1a Corded Ware family that has been living next door, even if that's been for several millennia).

You are patrilineally more closely related to your own grandfather -- and to any YDNA descendant of his -- than to your second cousin (who has a different grandfather).

Maybe R1b- L23+ and R1b-Z2103 and downstream(like L584 Caucasus) will not be considered far flung when in the context of more ancient R1b samples like 14, 0000 YBP Villabruna or R1b-V88 Iron Gate or even older samples of R1b from Baltic and Volga, you never know when the next ancient sample will show up. Who knows one day they might find samples of R1b 1000s of years older 16-18 YBP+/-than Villabruna within East central Europe (like Silesia Poland related regions etc....) that will be related to Yamnaya R1b-Z2103 and downstream mutations like R1b-Z2110 Sarmatians.

Koppany
09-07-2020, 02:34 PM
I have tested with yseq and living dna and I am R1b Z2103. As I live in England, have a Anglo Saxon surname and can trace my direct male line back to the 1600s in England what is the current theory of how Z2103 got to the UK? I am aware that it is rare in England and is of Eastern Europe origin. Did it arrive in the neolithic for example and just didn't mutate like r1b L21 or is it a later arrival? Where is it most commonly found today?

My results areQuick results summary:
R1b-M343 Orientation Panel
P312 C-
L51 G-
U106 C-
Z2103 C+
M343 A+
M269 C+
R1b-Z2103 +
Z2106 G-
CTS9219 G-
FGC14589 T+
Y19434 C-
FGC14625 G-
FGC14590 -
L943 -
Y18687 -

Many thanks

I believe these are from Roman auxiliary forces too.There are many subclades of Z2103 in Britain and they cannot be connected to any other migration as far as I know.My subclade is found among many Welsh and Southern-Scottish families too,plus some Scandinavian and German while Z2103 has zero connection to both Celtic and Germanic groups.Apart from that,in absence of ancient dna I dont think we will ever find out their exact route or which culture they belonged to,in your case I'd guess the Caucasus region tho.

dosas
09-07-2020, 02:57 PM
Could be these guys too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

Silesian
09-15-2020, 08:27 PM
Could be these guys too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

That would imply R1b=Indo-Iranian speaking.

Let's see, R1b-L51+R1b-Z2103 derive from common ancestral R1b-L23 most likely all three at one time spoke a common language 5000 to 6000 years ago. Let's call it R1b-L23 language

Then we have common cultural burials between the 2 for the last 1000 years plus,
1)R1b-Z2103+ and R1b-L51+ both in common Afanasievo burial culture 5300YBP+/- Afanasievo language?
2)R1b-Z2103+ and R1b-L51+both in common East Europe Bell Beaker culture(Hungary)-- Bell Beaker Eastern Language?
3)R1b-Z2103+and R1b-L51+both found in Scythian culture graves-- Iranian language?
4)R1b-Z2103+and R1b-L51+both found Latini tribe of Italy-- Latin language?

Could the 5 examples of R1b-Z2103+ L51+ have spoken the same language handed down to them by ancestral R1b-L23+ thousands of years prior?

Steve
09-22-2020, 04:17 PM
As far as I am aware I have no Jewish or Anotolian ancestry. I have researched my family tree back to the early 1700s and my father line is all English Yeoman Farmers in the county of Dorset

ShpataEMadhe
01-16-2021, 02:12 PM
Already been answered, R1b Z2103 is rare in Western Europe, its more frequent in Balkans - likeliest scenario is spread through Roman legions. I read somewhere that Britain or at least the south could have had up to 30% Roman y dna leading up to the Anglish invasions - was severely diminished after this

Looking at today I still see a lot of potential Roman y dna!

42611

These figures fail to include minorities in England such as black people, middle easterns, chinese, other europeans etc.