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View Full Version : Haplogroup Distribution in Romania and Republic of Moldova



Dorkymon
08-28-2020, 03:31 PM
I pulled together all the sources that I could find and came up with about 1200 regional samples.

Here are the results on regional level:



Haplogroup
Oltenia
Muntenia
Dobrogea
Wallachia (Oltenia,Muntenia and Dobrogea)
Transylvania
Moldavia
Republic of Moldova


R1b
15%
13%
18%
14%
19%
12%
11%


R1a
20%
13%
8%
16%
19.5%
20.5%
30%


I2
26%
24%
38%
26%
25%
31.5%
29%


J2
13%
19%
8%
16%
14%
14%
5%


E1b1b
15.5%
16%
8%
16%
12%
10%
14%


J1
1%
2%
0%
1%
1%
1%
2%


G2a
2%
6%
13%
5%
2%
3.5%
0.5%


I1
5.5%
3%
0%
4%
3%
5%
3%


N1c
0.5%
1%
5%
1%
1.5%
2%
3%


T
0.5%
1%
0%
0.5%
2%
0%
1%


Q1
0%
1%
0%
0.5%
1%
0%
0.5%


E-V22
1%
0%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%


H
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0.5%
0%


Total
234
268
39
541
315
166
212





County level (only academic sources; not shown below, but included in regional totals are those from FTDNA projects, Yfull and 23andme)
Muntenia (Greater Wallachia)



Haplogroup
Calarasi
Arges
Dambovita
Ialomita
Teleorman
Prahova
Giurgiu
Bucuresti


R1b
8%
33%
0%
0%
29%
8%
20%
14%


R1a
13%
17%
0%
50%
0%
8%
20%
13%


I2
27%
17%
33%
0%
43%
35%
27%
15%


J2
13%
33%
33%
0%
0%
18%
24%
18%


E1b1b
25%
0%
17%
0%
14%
18%
7%
19%


J1
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%
3%
0%
3%


G2a
6%
0%
17%
0%
14%
10%
0%
6%


I1
6%
0%
0%
0%
0%
3%
0%
5%


N1c
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
1%


T
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
2%
2%


Q1
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
2%


E-V22
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


H
0%
0%
0%
50%
0%
0%
0%
1%


Total
48
6
6
2
7
40
45
104





Oltenia (Lesser Wallachia)



Haplogroup
Mehedinti
Dolj
Olt


R1b
21%
13%
15%


R1a
17%
23%
5%


I2
28%
24%
45%


J2
21%
12%
10%


E1b1b
14%
16%
15%


J1
0%
1%
0%


G2a
0%
2%
10%


I1
0%
7%
0%


N1c
0%
1%
0%


T
0%
1%
0%


Q1
0%
1%
0%


E-V22
0%
1%
0%


H
0%
0%
0%


Total
29
182
20





Transylvania



Haplogroup
Maramures
Bihor
Arad
Alba
Cluj
Brasov


R1b
24%
19%
33%
30%
11%
10%


R1a
17%
18%
13%
19%
29%
14%


I2
21%
30%
17%
33%
16%
28%


J2
31%
12%
23%
0%
9%
16%


E1b1b
3%
12%
3%
11%
18%
18%


J1
0%
1%
0%
0%
2%
4%


G2a
3%
0%
0%
0%
5%
0%


I1
0%
1%
0%
0%
5%
8%


N1c
0%
2%
3%
0%
2%
0%


T
0%
1%
7%
7%
2%
0%


Q1
0%
3%
0%
0%
0%
2%


E-V22
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


H
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


Total
29
105
30
27
55
50




Moldavia



Haplogroup
Vrancea
Neamt
Suceava


R1b
16%
8%
43%


R1a
16%
24%
14%


I2
23%
42%
14%


J2
16%
11%
14%


E1b1b
16%
7%
0%


J1
2%
0%
0%


G2a
2%
4%
0%


I1
7%
2%
0%


N1c
2%
1%
14%


T
0%
0%
0%


Q1
0%
0%
0%


E-V22
0%
0%
0%


H
0%
1%
0%


Total
44
89
7




Republic of Moldova



Haplogroup
Stefan Voda
Drochia
Chisinau


R1b
15%
17%
6%


R1a
37%
22%
36%


I2
21%
28%
37%


J2
4%
4%
3%


E1b1b
13%
13%
10%


J1
6%
2%
0%


G2a
0%
2%
0%


I1
3%
7%
0%


N1c
1%
2%
6%


T
0%
2%
3%


Q1
0%
2%
0%


E-V22
0%
0%
0%


H
0%
0%
0%


Total
71
54
70





With minorities



Haplogroup
Harghita (Hungarians)
Bihor (Slovaks)
Bihor (Germans)
Bihor (Roma)
Transnistria (Ukrainians)
Constanta (Vlachs)


R1b
25%
6%
56%
0%
21%
33%


R1a
19%
60%
0%
0%
40%
2%


I2
44%
11%
31%
0%
21%
19%


J2
0%
6%
0%
0%
8%
38%


E1b1b
6%
9%
6%
3%
0%
7%


J1
0%
3%
0%
0%
2%
0%


G2a
0%
3%
3%
0%
0%
0%


I1
0%
0%
3%
0%
4%
0%


N1c
3%
3%
0%
0%
6%
0%


T
3%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


Q1
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


E-V22
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


H
0%
0%
0%
97%
0%
0%


Total
36
35
32
35
53
42





I personally think that J2 primarily and some R-L23 secondarily are the haplogroups of those Imperial Romans responsible for the romanisation of the local Dacians/Getae/Thracians, the latter whom were probably of E-V13, G2a and non-CTS10228 I2 stock. Most of R1a and I2 (since 95%+ falls under I-CTS10228) is probably related to Slavic migrations.

Dorkymon
08-28-2020, 03:32 PM
Before JMan asks me, about 65% of J2 falls under J2a-M410 and 35% under J2b-M241. ;)
In a study about the individuals bearing the "Basarab" surname, the name of the founding house of Wallachia, which is thought to be of Cuman origin, most of the individuals (like 90% of J2) were J2b-M241. This is in stark contrast to the spread among regular folk, where J2a seems to dominate.

Kelmendasi
08-28-2020, 04:43 PM
Before JMan asks me, about 65% of J2 falls under J2a-M410 and 35% under J2b-M241. ;)
In a study about the individuals bearing the "Basarab" surname, the name of the founding house of Wallachia, which is thought to be of Cuman origin, most of the individuals (like 90% of J2) were J2b-M241. This is in stark contrast to the spread among regular folk, where J2a seems to dominate.
If I am not mistaken, those Romanians more specifically belong to J2b-Y22894 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y22894/) (BY101837). So far on Yfull this cluster is represented by a Greek from Thessaloniki and a Bosniak, they share a TMRCA of ~500 ybp. However, Albanians also belong to this group and I believe some are in fact closest to those Romanians, and that they may form an older branch. The J2b-Y22894 Albanians are primarily from Kosovo, the Presheva/Preševo Valley, and northeastern Albania (Dibėr and Kukės).

Hawk
08-28-2020, 05:29 PM
I cannot believe all R1b/J2 there are from Romans, or all E-V13 are Daco-Thracian.

Dorkymon
08-28-2020, 05:58 PM
I cannot believe all R1b/J2 there are from Romans, or all E-V13 are Daco-Thracian.

Surely neither do I, I just think that those cultures carried more of those than others.

J Man
08-28-2020, 06:00 PM
Before JMan asks me, about 65% of J2 falls under J2a-M410 and 35% under J2b-M241. ;)
In a study about the individuals bearing the "Basarab" surname, the name of the founding house of Wallachia, which is thought to be of Cuman origin, most of the individuals (like 90% of J2) were J2b-M241. This is in stark contrast to the spread among regular folk, where J2a seems to dominate.

Haha thank you and great work! For the J2 samples how were you able to determine that about 65% of them are J2a-M410 and 35% are J2b-M102? FTDNA, 23andme and tables from academic papers?

Dorkymon
08-28-2020, 06:44 PM
Haha thank you and great work! For the J2 samples how were you able to determine that about 65% of them are J2a-M410 and 35% are J2b-M102? FTDNA, 23andme and tables from academic papers?

And Yfull

Yep, however, I referred only to those for which the subclade could be determined. A lot of them stop at J2 level, as they come from papers released in the early 2000s.

J Man
08-28-2020, 08:27 PM
And Yfull

Yep, however, I referred only to those for which the subclade could be determined. A lot of them stop at J2 level, as they come from papers released in the early 2000s.

Have you ever seen any J2a results that have their origins in Maramures on Yfull, FTDNA or 23andme?

Moldovlah
08-28-2020, 08:33 PM
Have you ever seen any J2a results that have their origins in Maramures on Yfull, FTDNA or 23andme?

J2 is West Asian lineage, probably related to Greeks migration. Is not local to Romania.

Dorkymon
08-28-2020, 08:56 PM
Have you ever seen any J2a results that have their origins in Maramures on Yfull, FTDNA or 23andme?

Nope


J2 is West Asian lineage, probably related to Greeks migration. Is not local to Romania.

They might have been of Greco-Roman Imperial stock to be more precise, and they probably Romanised the population. Vlachs score 33% of J2, so that can't be a coincidence.
Greeks who migrated in the 19-20th centuries were very few in numbers to explain such big percentages.

Moldovlah
08-28-2020, 09:22 PM
Nope



They might have been of Greco-Roman Imperial stock to be more precise, and they probably Romanised the population. Vlachs score 33% of J2, so that can't be a coincidence.
Greeks who migrated in the 19-20th centuries were very few in numbers to explain such big percentages.

Greeks are West Asian, similar as Jews.

Romans are West Mediterranean, similar as Iberians, Italians.

Moldovlah
08-28-2020, 09:27 PM
Nope



They might have been of Greco-Roman Imperial stock to be more precise, and they probably Romanised the population. Vlachs score 33% of J2, so that can't be a coincidence.
Greeks who migrated in the 19-20th centuries were very few in numbers to explain such big percentages.

This is also in play, I don't know how this is always ignored.

From Alexander Victor Micula - Romanian ambassador in Bueno Aires, Argentina

"I represent a country whose Jewish community has an interesting history which begins, according to the documents and archaeological evidence found so far, in 70 AD when the first Jewish merchants settled down in Dacia, now called Romania. Later on in 113, and 114 AD there was a large community of Jewish merchants together with the Romanian legions which occupied Dacia, as proven by documentary and archaeological evidence."

Moldovlah
08-28-2020, 09:29 PM
Double post

Dorkymon
08-28-2020, 09:35 PM
Greeks are West Asian, similar as Jews.

Romans are West Mediterranean, similar as Iberians, Italians.

Genetically, yes, but the legions were of very diverse origins. For example those people who romanised the Dacians could have been pure Syrians who were romanised for all we know. That doesn't change the fact that they are the Roman stock in the equation for Romanians.

Moldovlah
08-28-2020, 09:43 PM
Genetically, yes, but the legions were of very diverse origins. For example those people who romanised the Dacians could have been pure Syrians who were romanised for all we know. That doesn't change the fact that they are the Roman stock in the equation for Romanians.

They didn't need Romanization, for what? Language? Don't make me laugh, we used to sell Romans swords we didn't get Romanized until recently. Their genome was already part Natufian like going into the Neolithic, it was a common lineage in all Balkans and probably even further north past modern geo political lines.

With regards to the J2, I would refer to my post #12.

Dorkymon
08-29-2020, 01:16 AM
If I am not mistaken, those Romanians more specifically belong to J2b-Y22894 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y22894/) (BY101837).

They stop at J2b-M241 from what I'm seeing. J2a-M410 ones go into J2a-M67 and J2a-M92.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041803

----------------------------------------------------

For the 9 J2 guys on YFull, 5 are J2a and 4 are J2b. You can click the subclade links to see whom they cluster with.

For those under J2a, 4 out of 5 fall under J2a-M92, with 2 of them moving further into L556.

For those under J2b, 3 out of 4 fall under J2b-Z2507, with 2 of them moving further into Z1295.



Haplogroup
Origin
Subclade
Country
Location
ID
Path


J2a
YFull
J-FT87369 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT87369/)
ROU
ROU
YF76696
FGC4962<L254<FGC4975<PF5366<L25<PF5160<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2a
YFull
J-BY68767 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY68767/)
ROU
ROU
YF74532
SK1344<PF7412<M92<Z500<Z1847<M67<L558<PF5166<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2a
YFull
J-Y13511 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y13511/)
ROU
ROU
YF04187
Y9005<L556<L560<Y20492<Z8096<Z508<M92<Z500<Z1847<M67<L558<PF5166<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2a
YFull
J-Y22280 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22280/)
ROU
Braila
YF02837
Y11782<L556<L560<Y20492<Z8096<Z508<M92<Z500<Z1847<M67<L558<PF5166<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2a
YFull
J-FGC62187 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC62187/)
ROU
Iasi
YF08205
Z30677<Y3020<Z7671<Z1847<M67<L558<PF5166<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2b
YFull
J-Y102756 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y102756/)
ROU
Constanta
YF16641
Z42983<Z42957<Z42941<Z2453<Z1825<Z534<M102


J2b
YFull
J-BY81991 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY81991/)
ROU
Arges
YF71294
Z40052<Y15058<Z2507<Z600<Z622<L283<M241<Z593<Z1825<Z534<M102


J2b
YFull
J-Y85328 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y85328/)
ROU
Buzau
YF66981
Y37121<CTS11100<Y21878<Z1295<Z1297<Z638<Z2507<Z600<Z622<L283<M241<Z593<Z1825<Z534<M102


J2b
YFull
J-Y191359 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y191359/)
ROU
Botosani
YF72045
Z8429<Z8421<Z1295<Z1297<Z638<Z2507<Z600<Z622<L283<M241<Z593<Z1825<Z534<M102



----------------------------------------------------
The rest of my regional J2 samples for Romania, which went deeper than J2-M172 are as follows:

Calarasi (Wallachia): 5xJ2a (2xJ-Z387 (under L25)) ; 1xJ2b
Dambovita (Wallachia): 2xJ2a
Prahova (Wallachia): 1xJ2a
Dolj (Wallachia): 13xJ2a (8xJ2a-M410, 4xJ2a-M67, 1xJ2a-M92) ; 9xJ2b-M241
Olt (Wallachia): 1xJ2a ; 1xJ2b
Constanta (Wallachia): 1xJ2b

Cluj (Transylvania): 5xJ2a (4xJ2a-M410, 1xJ2a-M67)
Brasov (Transylvania): 5xJ2a (4xJ2a-M410,1xJ2a-M92) ; 3xJ2b-M241
Bihor (Transylvania): 4xJ2a (3xJ2a-M67) ; 3xJ2b

Vrancea (Moldavia): 3xJ2a ; 1xJ2b
Neamt (Moldavia): 2xJ2a (1xJ2a-M92) ; 1xJ2b
Suceava (Moldavia): 2xJ2a (1xJ2a-Z471 (under M67); 1xJ2a-L243)

Kelmendasi
08-29-2020, 01:25 AM
They stop at J2b-M241 from what I'm seeing. J2a-M410 ones go into J2a-M67 and J2a-M92.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041803

----------------------------------------------------

For the 9 J2 guys on YFull, 5 are J2a and 4 are J2b. You can click the subclade links to see whom they cluster with.

For those under J2a, 4 out of 5 fall under J2a-M92, with 2 of them moving further into L556.

For those under J2b, 3 out of 4 fall under J2b-Z2507, with 2 of them moving further into Z1295.



Haplogroup
Origin
Subclade
Country
Location
ID
Path


J2a
YFull
J-FT87369 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT87369/)
ROU
ROU
YF76696
FGC4962<L254<FGC4975<PF5366<L25<PF5160<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2a
YFull
J-BY68767 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY68767/)
ROU
ROU
YF74532
SK1344<PF7412<M92<Z500<Z1847<M67<L558<PF5166<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2a
YFull
J-Y13511 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y13511/)
ROU
ROU
YF04187
Y9005<L556<L560<Y20492<Z8096<Z508<M92<Z500<Z1847<M67<L558<PF5166<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2a
YFull
J-Y22280 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22280/)
ROU
Braila
YF02837
Y11782<L556<L560<Y20492<Z8096<Z508<M92<Z500<Z1847<M67<L558<PF5166<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2a
YFull
J-FGC62187 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC62187/)
ROU
Iasi
YF08205
Z30677<Y3020<Z7671<Z1847<M67<L558<PF5166<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2b
YFull
J-Y102756 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y102756/)
ROU
Constanta
YF16641
Z42983<Z42957<Z42941<Z2453<Z1825<Z534<M102


J2b
YFull
J-BY81991 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY81991/)
ROU
Arges
YF71294
Z40052<Y15058<Z2507<Z600<Z622<L283<M241<Z593<Z1825<Z534<M102


J2b
YFull
J-Y85328 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y85328/)
ROU
Buzau
YF66981
Y37121<CTS11100<Y21878<Z1295<Z1297<Z638<Z2507<Z600<Z622<L283<M241<Z593<Z1825<Z534<M102


J2b
YFull
J-Y191359 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y191359/)
ROU
Botosani
YF72045
Z8429<Z8421<Z1295<Z1297<Z638<Z2507<Z600<Z622<L283<M241<Z593<Z1825<Z534<M102



----------------------------------------------------
The rest of my regional J2 samples for Romania, which went deeper than J2-M172 are as follows:

Calarasi (Wallachia): 5xJ2a (2xJ-Z387 (under L25)) ; 1xJ2b
Dambovita (Wallachia): 2xJ2a
Prahova (Wallachia): 1xJ2a
Dolj (Wallachia): 13xJ2a (8xJ2a-M410, 4xJ2a-M67, 1xJ2a-M92) ; 9xJ2b-M241
Olt (Wallachia): 1xJ2a ; 1xJ2b
Constanta (Wallachia): 1xJ2b

Cluj (Transylvania): 5xJ2a (4xJ2a-M410, 1xJ2a-M67)
Brasov (Transylvania): 5xJ2a (4xJ2a-M410,1xJ2a-M92) ; 3xJ2b-M241
Bihor (Transylvania): 4xJ2a (3xJ2a-M67) ; 3xJ2b

Vrancea (Moldavia): 3xJ2a ; 1xJ2b
Neamt (Moldavia): 2xJ2a (1xJ2a-M92) ; 1xJ2b
Suceava (Moldavia): 2xJ2a (1xJ2a-Z471 (under M67); 1xJ2a-L243)
I believe the J2b-Y22894 classification for the Romanians with the last name Basarab is based on STR analysis. I am not too sure however. Though I do know that they have been classified as such by some pretty reliable people on different forums.

Dorkymon
08-29-2020, 01:34 AM
I believe the J2b-Y22894 classification for the Romanians with the last name Basarab is based on STR analysis. I am not too sure however. Though I do know that they have been classified as such by some pretty reliable people on different forums.

Could be, I personally noted only what they said in the paper. But from looking at them compared with the general population that they picked for that study (Table S1 (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?type=supplementary&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041803.s001)), it seems like they are kind of atypical for being more J2b rich.

Basarab guys: 9xJ2b-M241 ; 1xJ2a-M410 (J2a-M67)

General population: 12xJ2a-M410 (3xJ2a-M67, 1xJ2a-M97) ; 7xJ2b-M241

That also mirrors the trend in my samples from the above post, where the proportion of J2a to J2b is roughly 65% : 35%.

J Man
08-29-2020, 11:28 AM
They stop at J2b-M241 from what I'm seeing. J2a-M410 ones go into J2a-M67 and J2a-M92.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041803

----------------------------------------------------

For the 9 J2 guys on YFull, 5 are J2a and 4 are J2b. You can click the subclade links to see whom they cluster with.

For those under J2a, 4 out of 5 fall under J2a-M92, with 2 of them moving further into L556.

For those under J2b, 3 out of 4 fall under J2b-Z2507, with 2 of them moving further into Z1295.



Haplogroup
Origin
Subclade
Country
Location
ID
Path


J2a
YFull
J-FT87369 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT87369/)
ROU
ROU
YF76696
FGC4962<L254<FGC4975<PF5366<L25<PF5160<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2a
YFull
J-BY68767 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY68767/)
ROU
ROU
YF74532
SK1344<PF7412<M92<Z500<Z1847<M67<L558<PF5166<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2a
YFull
J-Y13511 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y13511/)
ROU
ROU
YF04187
Y9005<L556<L560<Y20492<Z8096<Z508<M92<Z500<Z1847<M67<L558<PF5166<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2a
YFull
J-Y22280 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22280/)
ROU
Braila
YF02837
Y11782<L556<L560<Y20492<Z8096<Z508<M92<Z500<Z1847<M67<L558<PF5166<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2a
YFull
J-FGC62187 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC62187/)
ROU
Iasi
YF08205
Z30677<Y3020<Z7671<Z1847<M67<L558<PF5166<PF5087<L26<PF4610<M410


J2b
YFull
J-Y102756 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y102756/)
ROU
Constanta
YF16641
Z42983<Z42957<Z42941<Z2453<Z1825<Z534<M102


J2b
YFull
J-BY81991 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY81991/)
ROU
Arges
YF71294
Z40052<Y15058<Z2507<Z600<Z622<L283<M241<Z593<Z1825<Z534<M102


J2b
YFull
J-Y85328 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y85328/)
ROU
Buzau
YF66981
Y37121<CTS11100<Y21878<Z1295<Z1297<Z638<Z2507<Z600<Z622<L283<M241<Z593<Z1825<Z534<M102


J2b
YFull
J-Y191359 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y191359/)
ROU
Botosani
YF72045
Z8429<Z8421<Z1295<Z1297<Z638<Z2507<Z600<Z622<L283<M241<Z593<Z1825<Z534<M102



----------------------------------------------------
The rest of my regional J2 samples for Romania, which went deeper than J2-M172 are as follows:

Calarasi (Wallachia): 5xJ2a (2xJ-Z387 (under L25)) ; 1xJ2b
Dambovita (Wallachia): 2xJ2a
Prahova (Wallachia): 1xJ2a
Dolj (Wallachia): 13xJ2a (8xJ2a-M410, 4xJ2a-M67, 1xJ2a-M92) ; 9xJ2b-M241
Olt (Wallachia): 1xJ2a ; 1xJ2b
Constanta (Wallachia): 1xJ2b

Cluj (Transylvania): 5xJ2a (4xJ2a-M410, 1xJ2a-M67)
Brasov (Transylvania): 5xJ2a (4xJ2a-M410,1xJ2a-M92) ; 3xJ2b-M241
Bihor (Transylvania): 4xJ2a (3xJ2a-M67) ; 3xJ2b

Vrancea (Moldavia): 3xJ2a ; 1xJ2b
Neamt (Moldavia): 2xJ2a (1xJ2a-M92) ; 1xJ2b
Suceava (Moldavia): 2xJ2a (1xJ2a-Z471 (under M67); 1xJ2a-L243)

Do you know of any J2a samples that have their origins in any particular villages in the countryside?

Riverman
08-29-2020, 12:53 PM
What about the Transnistrian population sample? They score 0 for haplogroup E in your example, while Ukrainians in general have it. Any special background info on them?
I read about the general population on German Wikipedia:

2004 wurden rund 555.000 Einwohner gezählt, die sich aus etwa 31,9 % Moldauern, 30,3 % Russen und 28,9 % Ukrainern zusammensetzen

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistrien#Bev%C3%B6lkerung

Dorkymon
08-29-2020, 01:05 PM
What about the Transnistrian population sample? They score 0 for haplogroup E in your example, while Ukrainians in general have it. Any special background info on them?
I read about the general population on German Wikipedia:


https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistrien#Bev%C3%B6lkerung

First of all those are only Ukrainian ethnics, and secondly the sample size is too small, meaning that they are not that representative for people in Transnistria as an average. It's not unusual for one village to have slightly different lineages from the neighbouring ones. That applies to most places in Europe.

Those 53 samples come from this village: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C8%99cov

Dorkymon
08-29-2020, 01:13 PM
First of all those are only Ukrainian ethnics, and secondly the sample size is too small, meaning that they are not that representative for people in Transnistria as an average. It's not unusual for one village to have slightly different lineages from the neighbouring ones. That applies to most places in Europe.

Those 53 samples come from this village: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C8%99cov

Since I'm not allowed to edit the above comment, I will reply here.

We need samples from more than one Ukrainian settlement in Moldova to be able to tell if it's typical of them not to have any E lineages. I doubt that's true, because there are plenty of full Ukrainians in Moldova who autosomally seem to be of obvious mixed heritage. Hence the Ukrainian profile in Moldova is bound to be more Southeast Euro-leaning than in Ukraine.

Coldmountains
08-29-2020, 01:24 PM
I pulled together all the sources that I could find and came up with about 1200 regional samples.

Here are the results on regional level:



Haplogroup
Oltenia
Muntenia
Dobrogea
Wallachia (Oltenia,Muntenia and Dobrogea)
Transylvania
Moldavia
Republic of Moldova


R1b
15%
13%
18%
14%
19%
12%
11%


R1a
20%
13%
8%
16%
19.5%
20.5%
30%


I2
26%
24%
38%
26%
25%
31.5%
29%


J2
13%
19%
8%
16%
14%
14%
5%


E1b1b
15.5%
16%
8%
16%
12%
10%
14%


J1
1%
2%
0%
1%
1%
1%
2%


G2a
2%
6%
13%
5%
2%
3.5%
0.5%


I1
5.5%
3%
0%
4%
3%
5%
3%


N1c
0.5%
1%
5%
1%
1.5%
2%
3%


T
0.5%
1%
0%
0.5%
2%
0%
1%


Q1
0%
1%
0%
0.5%
1%
0%
0.5%


E-V22
1%
0%
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%


H
0%
1%
0%
0%
0%
0.5%
0%


Total
234
268
39
541
315
166
212





County level (only academic sources; not shown below, but included in regional totals are those from FTDNA projects, Yfull and 23andme)
Muntenia (Greater Wallachia)



Haplogroup
Calarasi
Arges
Dambovita
Ialomita
Teleorman
Prahova
Giurgiu
Bucuresti


R1b
8%
33%
0%
0%
29%
8%
20%
14%


R1a
13%
17%
0%
50%
0%
8%
20%
13%


I2
27%
17%
33%
0%
43%
35%
27%
15%


J2
13%
33%
33%
0%
0%
18%
24%
18%


E1b1b
25%
0%
17%
0%
14%
18%
7%
19%


J1
2%
0%
0%
0%
0%
3%
0%
3%


G2a
6%
0%
17%
0%
14%
10%
0%
6%


I1
6%
0%
0%
0%
0%
3%
0%
5%


N1c
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
1%


T
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
2%
2%


Q1
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
2%


E-V22
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


H
0%
0%
0%
50%
0%
0%
0%
1%


Total
48
6
6
2
7
40
45
104





Oltenia (Lesser Wallachia)



Haplogroup
Mehedinti
Dolj
Olt


R1b
21%
13%
15%


R1a
17%
23%
5%


I2
28%
24%
45%


J2
21%
12%
10%


E1b1b
14%
16%
15%


J1
0%
1%
0%


G2a
0%
2%
10%


I1
0%
7%
0%


N1c
0%
1%
0%


T
0%
1%
0%


Q1
0%
1%
0%


E-V22
0%
1%
0%


H
0%
0%
0%


Total
29
182
20





Transylvania



Haplogroup
Maramures
Bihor
Arad
Alba
Cluj
Brasov


R1b
24%
19%
33%
30%
11%
10%


R1a
17%
18%
13%
19%
29%
14%


I2
21%
30%
17%
33%
16%
28%


J2
31%
12%
23%
0%
9%
16%


E1b1b
3%
12%
3%
11%
18%
18%


J1
0%
1%
0%
0%
2%
4%


G2a
3%
0%
0%
0%
5%
0%


I1
0%
1%
0%
0%
5%
8%


N1c
0%
2%
3%
0%
2%
0%


T
0%
1%
7%
7%
2%
0%


Q1
0%
3%
0%
0%
0%
2%


E-V22
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


H
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


Total
29
105
30
27
55
50




Moldavia



Haplogroup
Vrancea
Neamt
Suceava


R1b
16%
8%
43%


R1a
16%
24%
14%


I2
23%
42%
14%


J2
16%
11%
14%


E1b1b
16%
7%
0%


J1
2%
0%
0%


G2a
2%
4%
0%


I1
7%
2%
0%


N1c
2%
1%
14%


T
0%
0%
0%


Q1
0%
0%
0%


E-V22
0%
0%
0%


H
0%
1%
0%


Total
44
89
7




Republic of Moldova



Haplogroup
Stefan Voda
Drochia
Chisinau


R1b
15%
17%
6%


R1a
37%
22%
36%


I2
21%
28%
37%


J2
4%
4%
3%


E1b1b
13%
13%
10%


J1
6%
2%
0%


G2a
0%
2%
0%


I1
3%
7%
0%


N1c
1%
2%
6%


T
0%
2%
3%


Q1
0%
2%
0%


E-V22
0%
0%
0%


H
0%
0%
0%


Total
71
54
70





With minorities



Haplogroup
Harghita (Hungarians)
Bihor (Slovaks)
Bihor (Germans)
Bihor (Roma)
Transnistria (Ukrainians)
Constanta (Vlachs)


R1b
25%
6%
56%
0%
21%
33%


R1a
19%
60%
0%
0%
40%
2%


I2
44%
11%
31%
0%
21%
19%


J2
0%
6%
0%
0%
8%
38%


E1b1b
6%
9%
6%
3%
0%
7%


J1
0%
3%
0%
0%
2%
0%


G2a
0%
3%
3%
0%
0%
0%


I1
0%
0%
3%
0%
4%
0%


N1c
3%
3%
0%
0%
6%
0%


T
3%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


Q1
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


E-V22
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


H
0%
0%
0%
97%
0%
0%


Total
36
35
32
35
53
42





I personally think that J2 primarily and some R-L23 secondarily are the haplogroups of those Imperial Romans responsible for the romanisation of the local Dacians/Getae/Thracians, the latter whom were probably of E-V13, G2a and non-CTS10228 I2 stock. Most of R1a and I2 (since 95%+ falls under I-CTS10228) is probably related to Slavic migrations.

Any R1a-Z93 among modern day Romanians and Moldavians? Looking at Ukrainians and Russians the frequency of it is just around 0,5-2% in most cases. I would expect a bit morr basal Z93 in Romania based on continuous migrations from the steppe and very early presence of Z93 in Romania/Moldavia(Bronze Age Romania/Usatovo with Z93*)

Dorkymon
08-29-2020, 01:34 PM
Any R1a-Z93 among modern day Romanians and Moldavians? Looking at Ukrainians and Russians the frequency of it is just around 0,5-2% in most cases. I would expect a bit morr basal Z93 in Romania based on continuous migrations from the steppe and very early presence of Z93 in Romania/Moldavia(Bronze Age Romania/Usatovo with Z93*)

I will have to look closer, but according to Yfull and FTDNA, all Romanians from Romania fall under R1a-Z282. There are 2 R1a-Z93 in the Romania project, but they are of full Jewish heritage.
In Moldova, there is one R1a-Z93 guy though.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC15531/

Ruderico
08-29-2020, 01:58 PM
Do you know if any of the E1b1b individuals are E-M123*? The branch parallel to mine appears to include Vlachs in Bulgaria and Serbia, as well as a Western French individual

Riverman
08-29-2020, 02:05 PM
First of all those are only Ukrainian ethnics, and secondly the sample size is too small, meaning that they are not that representative for people in Transnistria as an average. It's not unusual for one village to have slightly different lineages from the neighbouring ones. That applies to most places in Europe.

Those 53 samples come from this village: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C8%99cov

Ok, that explains it. Sure, just one village tells us little, even if the sample size doesn't look THAT small. Its the same with surname distribution which parallels haplogroups.

Dorkymon
08-29-2020, 02:54 PM
Ok, that explains it. Sure, just one village tells us little, even if the sample size doesn't look THAT small. Its the same with surname distribution which parallels haplogroups.

I've actually looked closer into the history of the settlement and apparently it had a noticeable Polish, Armenian and Ukrainian presence. There is even an interview from Poland about the locals from there, since they still speak Polish. So the population might be assimilated into Ukrainians, but ethnically of diverse origins. That explains the elevated R1b and the lack of E1b1b.

Dorkymon
08-29-2020, 02:58 PM
Do you know if any of the E1b1b individuals are E-M123*? The branch parallel to mine appears to include Vlachs in Bulgaria and Serbia, as well as a Western French individual

There are some downstream from E-M123, but very sporadic since like 95% of the lineages are E-V13. I am not aware of anyone who is E-M123*.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY192463/

gravetti
08-29-2020, 04:44 PM
Genetically, yes, but the legions were of very diverse origins. For example those people who romanised the Dacians could have been pure Syrians who were romanised for all we know. That doesn't change the fact that they are the Roman stock in the equation for Romanians.

There is no evidence that dacians have been romanized. The daco-roman theory was created in the 19th century by political motivations.

Riverman
08-29-2020, 05:12 PM
There is no evidence that dacians have been romanized. The daco-roman theory was created in the 19th century by political motivations.

Many Dacians were Romanised, others were not. Whether modern Romanians can be derived from these Romanised Dacians is a different question imho.

George
08-29-2020, 05:33 PM
Since I'm not allowed to edit the above comment, I will reply here.

We need samples from more than one Ukrainian settlement in Moldova to be able to tell if it's typical of them not to have any E lineages. I doubt that's true, because there are plenty of full Ukrainians in Moldova who autosomally seem to be of obvious mixed heritage. Hence the Ukrainian profile in Moldova is bound to be more Southeast Euro-leaning than in Ukraine.

Actually some of the E's in Ukraine (generally) could be remnants of the old Trypilians. I believe that there is ancient DNA evidence available. So there would be no need for more recent southern sources. But it is difficult to ascertain percentages.

Riverman
08-29-2020, 05:37 PM
Actually some of the E's in Ukraine (generally) could be remnants of the old Trypilians. I believe that there is ancient DNA evidence available. So there would be no need for more recent southern sources. But it is difficult to ascertain percentages.

I think haplogroup E in the Ukraine has different origins. Some may be from old Neolithic people, but most came in later, with back migration from the Carpathian region, Greeks, even some Slavic groups, Iranians.

Hawk
08-29-2020, 05:40 PM
What E are we talking?

Chances that Trypillians had E-V13 are 0%.

Riverman
08-29-2020, 06:15 PM
What E are we talking?

Chances that Trypillians had E-V13 are 0%.

I'd say chances Trypillians had E-V13 are good, but that they were the main source of V13 in modern Ukrainians, directly, is zero. Indirectly, because of an assimilation by steppe people, again somewhat higher.

Dorkymon
08-29-2020, 06:19 PM
There is no evidence that dacians have been romanized. The daco-roman theory was created in the 19th century by political motivations.

Yeah, sure, those Dacian emperors in the Roman Empire are just a myth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximinus_Thrax

Politicized content removed.

Moderator
08-29-2020, 08:47 PM
ToS 3.22 Political and religious discussion is only permitted in The Atrium, a forum section voluntarily selected for by subscription class members with at least 100 posts. Such discussions are strictly prohibited everywhere else in Anthrogenica and this includes placing material in signatures which the Administration deems to be political. Members are advised to limit the scope of organic tangents arising from discussions. Failure by participants to limit said tangents will be construed by the administration as a breach to section 3.10 and/or 3.12 above.

..........

George
08-29-2020, 08:54 PM
I'd say chances Trypillians had E-V13 are good, but that they were the main source of V13 in modern Ukrainians, directly, is zero. Indirectly, because of an assimilation by steppe people, again somewhat higher.

The disappearance of the main ("classical") Trypilian groups has yet to be explained (wiped out by disease?). Of those that can be traced in subsequent cultures, we at least know that (a) the northwesternmost were annihilated by the GAC (the female markers survived autosomally in the eastern GAC whose future was not in itself rosy. (b) the northeastern group (Sofiivka) almost certainly became a component of the later Middle Dnipro culture etc.. But the likelihood of their being significant carriers of E was rather small, since this was a Trypilian group which originally consisted of northern hunter gatherer types. (c) the southwestern group actually turned into steppe colonizers, associates of Usatovo, and even early Yamna, so their fate is also bound up there. So I would agree that the probability of the bulk of today's Ukrainian E being of Trypilian origin via (eventually) the early local Slavs is fairly remote.

Dorkymon
08-29-2020, 09:06 PM
A look at the R1b subclades among Romanians
Those that stop at L23 might be L23* so Z2103, but that's not specified in the supplementary data that I've got.

R-L2 (U152<L151)
R-L2 (U152<L151)
R-L2 (U152<L151)
R-L21 (L151)
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L48 (U106<L151)
R-U106 (L151)
R-U106 (L151)
R-U106 (L151)
R-U152 (L151)
R-U198 (U106<L151)

The ones originating from YFull tend to be more skewed towards Z2103.


https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A19725/ (U152<L151)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z16828/ (DF27<L151)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF13*/ (L21<L151)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC12346*/ (U106<L151)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC75224/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC14600*/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A13358*/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y38317/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-V2986*/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y32147/ (Z2103)

alan
08-29-2020, 09:08 PM
I am pretty sure from past studies I saw that most R1b-L23 further east or south-east of Austria is L23xL51 ie. Z2103 with only an L151 component is areas where Germans etc settled. So, I would start from the premise that a large chunk of R1b in Romania/Moldova is Z2103. That sort of pattern is not likely IMO to be due to an out of Italy type movement where L51 derivatives would be far stronger. mostly U152. ASAIK there is also a lack of the L51xL151 type of R1b seen in parts of Italy from early times. Its surely much more likely that Z2103 relates to pre-Roman Balkans tribes? Personally, given what we know about Z2103 now, I suspect it was one of key ingredients in the creation of the pre-Roman Balkans/Lower Danube/western Black Sea shore IE tribes.

alan
08-29-2020, 09:23 PM
A look at the R1b subclades among Romanians
Those that stop at L23 might be L23* so Z2103, but that's not specified in the supplementary data that I've got.

R-L2 (U152<L151)
R-L2 (U152<L151)
R-L2 (U152<L151)
R-L21 (L151)
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L48 (U106<L151)
R-U106 (L151)
R-U106 (L151)
R-U106 (L151)
R-U152 (L151)
R-U198 (U106<L151)

The ones originating from YFull tend to be more skewed towards Z2103.


https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A19725/ (U152<L151)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z16828/ (DF27<L151)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF13*/ (L21<L151)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC12346*/ (U106<L151)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC75224/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC14600*/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A13358*/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y38317/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-V2986*/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y32147/ (Z2103)

I dont know much about Romania or Moldova but I do recall vaguely a study of Bulgaria showing R1b L23 peaked in the east of the county close to the Black Sea. One thing I clearly recall seeing by looking at R1b in the Balkans and Lower Danube area was that it was much stronger in areas where Slavic overlay was weaker and non-Slavic languages predominated today. So it seemed to me that a lot of it had to be pre-Slavic.

Dorkymon
08-29-2020, 09:43 PM
Its surely much more likely that Z2103 relates to pre-Roman Balkans tribes? Personally, given what we know about Z2103 now, I suspect it was one of key ingredients in the creation of the pre-Roman Balkans/Lower Danube/western Black Sea shore IE tribes.

Romanians formed by mixing with romanised folk, who were not necessarily of Roman stock from a genetical point of view. I'd wager that most of them were probably just romanised Balkanites from further South, like Greeks and different Thracian tribes for example, but there was also the occasional Italian and people from all over the Empire. Thus a part of Z2103 is probably local, while the other was brought over, together with J2 most likely.

Aspar
08-29-2020, 11:06 PM
A look at the R1b subclades among Romanians
Those that stop at L23 might be L23* so Z2103, but that's not specified in the supplementary data that I've got.

R-L2 (U152<L151)
R-L2 (U152<L151)
R-L2 (U152<L151)
R-L21 (L151)
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L23
R-L48 (U106<L151)
R-U106 (L151)
R-U106 (L151)
R-U106 (L151)
R-U152 (L151)
R-U198 (U106<L151)

The ones originating from YFull tend to be more skewed towards Z2103.


https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A19725/ (U152<L151)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z16828/ (DF27<L151)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF13*/ (L21<L151)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC12346*/ (U106<L151)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC75224/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC14600*/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A13358*/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y38317/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-V2986*/ (Z2103)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y32147/ (Z2103)

More than half of those lineages on YFULL are actually Jews rather than ethnic Romanians, especially those R-Z2103 lineages.

Dorkymon
08-29-2020, 11:24 PM
More than half of those lineages on YFULL are actually Jews rather than ethnic Romanians, especially those R-Z2103 lineages.

Are there any proofs of that, because they are also on the Romania FTDNA project? They don't look Jewish to me, going by forenames and surnames. There are barely any Jews left in Romania too, so that's not likely to me.

Aspar
08-29-2020, 11:42 PM
Are there any proofs of that, because they are also on the Romania FTDNA project? They don't look Jewish to me, going by forenames and surnames. There are barely any Jews left in Romania too, so that's not likely to me.

Click on the upstream clades and you will get a clear picture...
Here, R-Y19852 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y19852/)
Does this look to you as a Romanian?
The guy literally having cousins in the last 750 years with people from all around the world and from Israel. This is a typical pattern of a Jewish subclade. You can check by yourself by googling more about a particular subclades, the evidence will pop up...

Most of the members in the Romanian Project are Jews. And these people are just stating the place of birth of their most distant known ancestor.

Dorkymon
08-30-2020, 12:26 AM
Click on the upstream clades and you will get a clear picture...
Here, R-Y19852 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y19852/)
Does this look to you as a Romanian?

Could be completely assimilated autosomally for all we know, but I agree that it is confusing. I am not going to verify every single one of them for their ethnicity.

Velislav
08-30-2020, 05:35 PM
There are some downstream from E-M123, but very sporadic since like 95% of the lineages are E-V13. I am not aware of anyone who is E-M123*.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY192463/

Me (Vlach migrant descendant) and another Vlach from Serbia are of this rare haplogroup. He is not on yfull yet:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y134104/

We are both from the Southwest, from Oltenia and Banat. No other Romanians so far are confirmed to be of thte same haplogroup.TMRCA is between 500-700 years based only on 111 STRs. If you wish you can count us in this project. Also, there is one confirmed case from rep.Moldova.

Hawk
08-31-2020, 08:40 AM
I'd say chances Trypillians had E-V13 are good, but that they were the main source of V13 in modern Ukrainians, directly, is zero. Indirectly, because of an assimilation by steppe people, again somewhat higher.

I thought the same initially, but somehow now i am convinced Trypillia is too east for E-V13. It wasn't its hotspot nor the birthplace of this particular mutation. But i am open to any possibility.

Riverman
08-31-2020, 11:50 AM
I thought the same initially, but somehow now i am convinced Trypillia is too east for E-V13. It wasn't its hotspot nor the birthplace of this particular mutation. But i am open to any possibility.

I tend to the same conclusion, but think it was present, since TCC was connected to the Carpathian region.

Hawk
08-31-2020, 12:21 PM
I tend to the same conclusion, but think it was present, since TCC was connected to the Carpathian region.

Right now, in my hypothesis i relate the dispersion of E-V13 during Late Bronze Age with Eastern Urnfield Culture, around the region of Central Europe during LBA there was heavy rain causing great famine and these people with Naue II swords looked for new lands, they migrated into several directions but the main focus was inner Balkans. I just realized something interesting, Siculi aka the infamous Shekelesh are supposed to be LBA migrants from Adriatic, and they could be related to Illyrians/Messapi. Quite a chaotic time to live in LBA. Lots of different tribes living near eachother made coalition it seems.

alan
08-31-2020, 06:02 PM
I was reading up a bit about the history of the area and the Black Sea coastal area of Thracian Bulgaria and to a less extent Romania had lots of Greek trading port colonies in the period it first comes into the light of history. I wonder if that is why Z2103 is heavily concentrated in the eastern Black Sea area in Bulgaria? I've always thought that Z2103 must be important in the story of the Greeks but I cant honestly say i've read a really good paper about even present Greece and how it varies across the different parts of the present and former Greek world. Anyone know of a good paper - must have L23 resolved at least into L51 and non-L51.

Crank
09-03-2020, 07:58 PM
If I am not mistaken, those Romanians more specifically belong to J2b-Y22894 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y22894/) (BY101837). So far on Yfull this cluster is represented by a Greek from Thessaloniki and a Bosniak, they share a TMRCA of ~500 ybp. However, Albanians also belong to this group and I believe some are in fact closest to those Romanians, and that they may form an older branch. The J2b-Y22894 Albanians are primarily from Kosovo, the Presheva/Preševo Valley, and northeastern Albania (Dibėr and Kukės).

Romanians most likely originally originated south of the Danube, somewhere in the Dardania region, where they lived next to Albanians until they migrated north. Their language is connected to Albanian. This is also the position Noel Malcolm holds. And a group of Vlachs that became Aromanians split from Romanians and migrated South. And so far it is the most plausible theory. Romania was under Roman occupation for only 150 years compared to Western Balkans and Kosovo which was up to 800 years or more.

Correct me if I'm wrong but all the Bronze Age Thracians I have seen belonged to I2a2 and R1a-Z93. Bronze Age Dacians should fall into the same cluster given that they were a group of Thracians. So the Dacian/Thracian language was spread by people rich in I2a2 and R1a, while Illyrian rich in J2b2-L283 and some R1b like BY611. Myceaneans were rich in J2a like modern Greeks. Just by looking at some of the Bronze age YDNA some of these Indo-European speakers brought from the steppes one can identify which population descendant from which.

Another linguistic point how Albanian could of never come from Dacian or Thracian






The strongest evidence, however, comes not from the meaning of the proper names (which is always open to doubt) but from their structure. Most Illyrian names are composed of a single unit; many Thracian ones are made of two units joined together. Several Thracian place-names end in -para, for example, which is thought to mean 'ford', or -diza, which is thought to mean fortress. Thus in the territory of the Bessi, a well known Thracian tribe, we have the town of Bessapara, 'ford of the Besi' . The structure here is the same as in many European languages:
thus the 'town of peter' can be called Peterborough, Petrograd, Petersburg, Pierreville, and so on. But the crucial fact is that this structure is impossible in Albanian, which can only say Qytet i Pjetrit, not Pjeterqytet. If 'para' were the Albanian for 'ford, then the place-name would have to be 'Para e Besseve' ; this might be reduced in time to something like 'Parabessa' , but it could never become 'Bessapara'. And what is at stake here is not some superficial feature of the language, which might easily change over time, but a profound structural principle. This is one of the strongest available arguments to show that Albanian cannot have developed out of Thracian.



Since Dacians were a group of Thracians they can pretty much be eliminated out of the picture too. So can Greeks. This leaves only Illyrian left.



Cut out some other parts here




Only remnants of a Latin speaking population survived in parts of the central and west-central Ballkans; when it re-emerges into the historical record in the tenth and eleventh centuries, we find its members leading a semi-nomadic life as shepherds, horse-breeders and travelling muleteers. These were the Vlachs, who can still be seen tending their flocks in the mountains of northern Greece, Macedonia and Albania today. The name Vlach was a word used by the Slavs for those they encountered who spoke a strange, usually Latinate, language; the Vlachs own name for themselves is 'Aromanians' (Aromani). As this name suggests, the Vlachs are closely linked to the Romanians:






It included the upper Morava valley, northern Macedonia, and the whole of Kosovo. It is, therefore, in the uplands of the Kosovo area (particularly), but not only, on the western side, including parts of Montenegro) that this Albanian-Vlach symbiosis probably developed. All the evidence comes together at this point. What is suggests is that the Kosovo region , together with at least part of northern Albania, was the crucial focus of two distinct but interlinked ethnic histories: the survival of the Albanians, and the emergence of the Romanians and Vlachs. One large group of Vlachs seems to have broken away and moved southwards by the ninth or tenth century; the proto-Romanians stayed in contact with Albanians significantly longer, before drifting north-eastwards, and crossing the Danube in the twelfth century.

Hawk
09-03-2020, 08:18 PM
Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian, Hellenic were a language brought by and originally spoken by R1b - Z2103.

The Minoans were heavily J2a, so the Mycenean J2a might as well be from an assimilated Minoan-like population.

Riverman
09-03-2020, 08:19 PM
The haplogroup borderlines in the iron age might have been pretty blurred already, especially between Illyrians, Eastern Celts, Thracians-Dacians, Sarmatians and Greeks. Before we have larger samples from different tribes and regions, I wouldn't be to restrictive in my judgement, because there are still som any unknowns.

Crank
09-03-2020, 08:31 PM
Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian, Hellenic were a language brought by and originally spoken by R1b - Z2103.

The Minoans were heavily J2a, so the Mycenean J2a might as well be from an assimilated Minoan-like population.

This is not what the Reich paper suggests for example. They suggest the Indo Europeans were also partly CHG or some Near Eastern, except for R1b - L23 and R1a , they also had some other haplogroups like J and some others.

Hawk
09-03-2020, 08:35 PM
This is not what the Reich paper suggests for example. They suggest the Indo Europeans were also partly CHG or some Near Eastern, except for R1b - L23 and R1a , they also had some other haplogroups like J and some others. The evidence suggests they were a diverse group of people too. The CHG influence is most likely from Maykop culture. R1b-L23 was found together with J2b2-L283 in the Caucasus region. They fused into a Indo European speaking population and migrated together into Europe at one point. They have been found together several times. J2b2-L283 was never found in any Yamnaya but R1b-L23 was one of the major Yamnaya haplogroups.

Proto-Thracians/Dacians could of aswell been R1a-Z93 and I2a2.


Proto-Greek language was spread by people that belonged to R1b but also possibly J2a.

These are speculations and imaginations of course. Those steppe people were backward and strictly patriarchal people who at latter point, after moving deeper in Europe started to mix.

And no, we don't know if those R1a and I2a were Thracians, those samples are from Early Bronze Age, it looks like classical Thracians, atleast from Odrysian Kingdom were mostly E-V13 with some R1b - Z2103.

Crank
09-03-2020, 08:45 PM
The haplogroup borderlines in the iron age might have been pretty blurred already, especially between Illyrians, Eastern Celts, Thracians-Dacians, Sarmatians and Greeks. Before we have larger samples from different tribes and regions, I wouldn't be to restrictive in my judgement, because there are still som any unknowns.

Yes. Some of these haplogroups also had prior come with non-IE so you might find them in Neolithic sites anywhere or even later. So you are right that assigning certain haplogroups to certain populations might not be correct. You could also find J2b2 anywhere in the Balkans at one point. But I was strictly speaking of the Bronze Age/IA though. Maybe looking into subclades would be crucial. But the Indo Europeans were a mixed group of people. I took this from the reich paper for example.



Steppe-related ancestry itself can be modelled as a mixture of EHG-related ancestry and ancestry related to Upper Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers of the Caucasus (CHG) and the
first farmers of northern Iran




https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/nature25778_Mathieson_2.pdf

While J2b2-L283 has been found in some pre-IE cultures it has also been found in the Caucasus close to where the Indo Europeans originated. It was found together with R1b-L23 which was a major haplogroup among the Yamnaya.



Researchers also found skulls that showed in the South of the IE homeland people were brachy while north they were longheaded.

Mongoloid or Native Indian like ancestry seem also to of played a role in some.


It debunks a lot of claims made earlier by anthropologists.

Crank
09-03-2020, 08:53 PM
These are speculations and imaginations of course. Those steppe people were backward and strictly patriarchal people who at latter point, after moving deeper in Europe started to mix.

And no, we don't know if those R1a and I2a were Thracians, those samples are from Early Bronze Age, it looks like classical Thracians, atleast from Odrysian Kingdom were mostly E-V13 with some R1b - Z2103.


Thracians were Bronze Age/IA people that were pushed out by the Srubnaya or timber grave culture so yes they most likely are Thracians. They also carried Steppe ancestry. Unless you mean they aren't Proto-Thracians



The origins of the Thracians remain obscure, in the absence of written historical records. Evidence of proto-Thracians in the prehistoric period depends on artifacts of material culture. Leo Klejn identifies proto-Thracians with the multi-cordoned ware culture that was pushed away from Ukraine by the advancing timber grave culture or Srubnaya. It is generally proposed that a proto-Thracian people developed from a mixture of indigenous peoples and Indo-Europeans from the time of Proto-Indo-European expansion in the Early Bronze Age[8] when the latter, around 1500 BC, mixed with indigenous peoples.[9] During the Iron Age (about 1000 BC) Dacians and Thracians began developing from proto-Thracians.[10]









Farming was first introduced to Europe in the mid-seventh millennium BC, and was associated with migrants from
Anatolia who settled in the southeast before spreading throughout Europe. Here, to understand the dynamics of this
process, we analysed genome-wide ancient DNA data from 225 individuals who lived in southeastern Europe and
surrounding regions between 12000 and 500 BC. We document a west–east cline of ancestry in indigenous huntergatherers and, in eastern Europe, the early stages in the formation of Bronze Age steppe ancestry. We show that the first farmers of northern and western Europe dispersed through southeastern Europe with limited hunter-gatherer admixture,
but that some early groups in the southeast mixed extensively with hunter-gatherers without the sex-biased admixture that prevailed later in the north and west. We also show that southeastern Europe continued to be a nexus between east and west after the arrival of farmers, with intermittent genetic contact with steppe populations occurring up to 2,000 years
earlier than the migrations from the steppe that ultimately replaced much of the population of northern Europe.





All the Bronze Age samples found in the Balkans carried Steppe ancestry.

Hawk
09-03-2020, 08:58 PM
Thracians were Bronze Age people that were pushed out by the Srubnaya or timber grave culture so yes they most likely are Thracians. They also carried Steppe ancestry. Unless you mean they aren't Proto-Thracians









All the Bronze Age samples found in the Balkans carried Steppe ancestry.

You read that part from wikipedia. We don't know if that bolded part is true or no yet. If Proto-Thracians were R1a and I2a then it will be quite strange for them to show E-V13 massively during Early Iron Age. From archeological perspective it looks like Proto-Thracians were formed somewhere in Carpathes, between E-V13 and R1b - Z2103. It was probably during MBA, then they migrated deeper in Balkans and replaced the earlier lineages.

Generalissimo
09-03-2020, 10:31 PM
While J2b2-L283 has been found in some pre-IE cultures it has also been found in the Caucasus close to where the Indo Europeans originated. It was found together with R1b-L23 which was a major haplogroup among the Yamnaya.

There's no J in Yamnaya or Corded Ware. And there's no L283 on the steppe.

There's some sort of J1 in yet to be published Khvalynsk samples, but there's also J1 in Eastern hunter-gatherers so this need not be a recent southern signal.

There's also J2a in a yet to be published Maykop-related sample. But neither Khvalynsk nor Maykop look ancestral to Yamnaya.

Riverman
09-04-2020, 12:12 AM
The Pre-Proto-Indo-Europeans could have had haplogroups which no longer exist any more, surely they had J too. It was in the process of their making, that specific clades of R1b and R1a became so dominant, because specific hunter-warrior clans became dominant. I'm pretty confident they will find more J in the Lower Don Culture, which is at the root of (pre-) PIE. And it might have survived in some tribes on a low level. But the language and dominant clans were North Pontic hunter gatherers, which are supposed to be R1a and/or R1b.
Similarly, around the Carpathians, there was not just one wave of incoming Indo-Europeans, but many. The Iron Age (Proto-) Daco-Thracians might have had an elite on top of an older Indo-Europeanised people, so you might both be right since the new incoming people is supposed to have been more Iranian-like in comparison, whereas the locals with which they met, the older layer, had an earlier IE, like R1b-Z2103, and local pre-IE haplogroups, including V13, which in turn moved back to the steppe as well, probably even before, even at the time of Sintashta, but surely in the Iron Age.

The people of the Iron Age had, quite often, layers of migrations and social stratification, as well as larger tribal and regional differences. It was not necessarily like Bell Beakers, with one founding clan dominating everything of the network. It could have happened, but more often than not, it was more complicated at that time.

I don't expect all Daco-Thracians to be the same at all, neither by tribe, region nor social class.

Generalissimo
09-04-2020, 12:28 AM
The Pre-Proto-Indo-Europeans could have had haplogroups which no longer exist any more, surely they had J too.

Maybe, but my point was that, in spite of what some still claim, L283 doesn't look like a steppe marker.

There's simply no evidence that it expanded from the steppe. All of the evidence, including yet to be published new data, suggests that it was picked up somewhere by steppe-derived peoples, possibly in the Balkans.

Riverman
09-04-2020, 12:57 AM
J-L283 is one of these clades which might surprise us, one way or another. I think you can't say for sure, at this point, it could very well have come from early steppe people.
If new evidence arrives, things might change of course. But it looks like a sibling of R1b-Z2103 to some degree.

Generalissimo
09-04-2020, 01:04 AM
J-L283 is one of these clades which might surprise us, one way or another. I think you can't say for sure, at this point, it could very well have come from early steppe people.
If new evidence arrives, things might change of course. But it looks like a sibling of R1b-Z2103 to some degree.

I'm not aware of L283 in any of the new data from the steppe. So I'm not expecting any surprises.

What makes you say that L283 looks like a sibling of Z2103?

Dorkymon
09-04-2020, 01:21 AM
J2b-L283 is the minor J2 lineage in Romanians in any case. The major one is J2a-M67, which for those that tested further downstream flows almost completely into J2a-M92.
I'm wondering what cultures brought that.

According to this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples) thread, the following samples were identified as positive for J2a-M92:

MA2200_final.SG Anatolia_MLBA.SG J2a1a1a2b2a1a or J2a1a1a2b2a2b2a
R115.SG Italy_Imperial.SG J2a1a1a2b2a1a1
I2190 Megiddo_MLBA J2a1a1a2b2a1a
I4519 Megiddo_MLBA_family1 J2a1a1a2b2a1a

Riverman
09-04-2020, 01:25 AM
I'm not aware of L283 in any of the new data from the steppe. So I'm not expecting any surprises.

What makes you say that L283 looks like a sibling of Z2103?

The TMRCA and distribution of some of the subclades. But I wouldn't bet on it, just an impression.

Do you know of data from the Lower Don culture? Because that would interest me the most.

@Dorkymon: Its clear that clades of J did enter the North Pontic steppe, while others took the Southern path, through Anatolia, most likely connected to the early excess Iranian-like ancestry in all regions affected.
It was spread in different waves of immigration too, some very late even.

Generalissimo
09-04-2020, 01:32 AM
The TMRCA and distribution of some of the subclades. But I wouldn't bet on it, just an impression.

Do you know of data from the Lower Don culture? Because that would interest me the most.

There's a Maykop-related sample from that area that belongs to J2a. I guess that fits with the archeological-based theory that Maykop briefly had trading colonies up there.

Otherwise, the Eneolithic western steppe is all I2a, Q, R1a and R1b. There might be some J just past the steppe near the western coast of the Black Sea.

Pribislav
09-04-2020, 02:42 AM
J2b-L283 is the minor J2 lineage in Romanians in any case. The major one is J2a-M67, which for those that tested further downstream flows almost completely into J2a-M92.
I'm wondering what cultures brought that.

According to this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples) thread, the following samples were identified as positive for J2a-M92:

MA2200_final.SG Anatolia_MLBA.SG J2a1a1a2b2a1a or J2a1a1a2b2a2b2a
R115.SG Italy_Imperial.SG J2a1a1a2b2a1a1
I2190 Megiddo_MLBA J2a1a1a2b2a1a
I4519 Megiddo_MLBA_family1 J2a1a1a2b2a1a


MA2200 isn't M92. It is M67>Z1847>Y4036>Z467>FGC21348>S11842>Y17947>Y15913* (xFGC21347) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15913/)

Alain
09-04-2020, 02:44 AM
There's a Maykop-related sample from that area that belongs to J2a. I guess that fits with the archeological-based theory that Maykop briefly had trading colonies up there.

Otherwise, the Eneolithic western steppe is all I2a, Q, R1a and R1b. There might be some J just past the steppe near the western coast of the Black Sea.

But not all I2a clades are connected to the steppe?

Crank
09-04-2020, 03:28 AM
Allentoft et al. (2015), Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia, published in Nature in June 2015 examined the Y-DNA of five Yamnaya males. Four belonged to types of R1b1a2, while one belonged to I2a2a1b1b.




They apparently found some I2a2 in a Yamnaya male https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14507

J Man
09-04-2020, 03:34 AM
J2b-L283 is the minor J2 lineage in Romanians in any case. The major one is J2a-M67, which for those that tested further downstream flows almost completely into J2a-M92.
I'm wondering what cultures brought that.

According to this (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20521-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-assignments-for-2500-ancient-samples) thread, the following samples were identified as positive for J2a-M92:

MA2200_final.SG Anatolia_MLBA.SG J2a1a1a2b2a1a or J2a1a1a2b2a2b2a
R115.SG Italy_Imperial.SG J2a1a1a2b2a1a1
I2190 Megiddo_MLBA J2a1a1a2b2a1a
I4519 Megiddo_MLBA_family1 J2a1a1a2b2a1a


Among the Romany (Gypsies) in Romania and other parts of Europe there are a number of "founder" haplotypes two of which iare under J2a. Of these one is under J2a-M67 and another one is under J2a-M92. Among ethnic Romanians some could be related to Romany admixture possibly. More detailed studies of Romanian J2a-M67 and J2a-M92 are needed to sort out these lineages in Romania.

J Man
09-04-2020, 03:38 AM
There's a Maykop-related sample from that area that belongs to J2a. I guess that fits with the archeological-based theory that Maykop briefly had trading colonies up there.

Otherwise, the Eneolithic western steppe is all I2a, Q, R1a and R1b. There might be some J just past the steppe near the western coast of the Black Sea.

Does the Maykop related J2a sample from the Lower Don area have "Maykop like" autosomal DNA?

Dorkymon
09-04-2020, 10:26 AM
test post

Dorkymon
09-04-2020, 10:37 AM
Among the Romany (Gypsies) in Romania and other parts of Europe there are a number of "founder" haplotypes two of which iare under J2a. Of these one is under J2a-M67 and another one is under J2a-M92. Among ethnic Romanians some could be related to Romany admixture possibly. More detailed studies of Romanian J2a-M67 and J2a-M92 are needed to sort out these lineages in Romania.


Yes, but those are separate, because the authors of the study worked with 144 Romanian samples from the same county (Dolj) as the Roma samples collected in 3-4 different villages if I remember correctly and they didn't find any shared haplotypes between the M67 and M92 Romas and Romanians (there were 19 J2 Romanians in that study, out of whom 12 J2a, 3 M67 and 1 M92). In fact for all the populations that they compared against in Europe they didn't find shared haplotypes for M67 and M92, with the sole exception being one individual from Hungary. And as I understood, Hungary was the only country where they didn't ask for the ethnicity of the participant, so that person might have been Roma.


"In addition to H-M52 and its derivate H-M82 haplogroups, three non-Indian lineages (I-P259, J-M92, and J-M67) were defined as founders. The founder lineages J-M92 and J-M67 are present in both Roma and hosts, as well as in the populations found in the Roma migration way out-of-India.47 Both lineages showed a star-like pattern in Roma with the exception of some individuals. Interestingly, the haplotypes within the star-like cluster were absent in the hosts, with the exception, again, of one Hungarian for J-M92 and one for J-M67 (Supplementary Figure S2). As these haplogroups were present in Europe far before the arrival of Roma,47 not all individuals carrying these lineages might be considered signals of gene flow between Roma and their hosts. Despite this limitation, we could identify one Roma individual with a haplotype far away from the star-like core identified as the founder J-M92 in Roma, suggesting gene flow from host to Roma (see Supplementary Figure S2D). In the case of J-M67, several Roma individuals present haplotypes distant from the founder star-like core, but only for three of them we could infer with little doubt that they show a host haplotype (Supplementary Figure S2F), suggesting again gene flow from hosts to Roma."

Dorkymon
09-04-2020, 10:44 AM
Sorry, I have to break my answer into two parts, because otherwise the captcha prevents me from posting.


Among the Romany (Gypsies) in Romania and other parts of Europe there are a number of "founder" haplotypes two of which iare under J2a. Of these one is under J2a-M67 and another one is under J2a-M92. Among ethnic Romanians some could be related to Romany admixture possibly. More detailed studies of Romanian J2a-M67 and J2a-M92 are needed to sort out these lineages in Romania.


Also, if I'm permitted to critique, the only reason why M67 and M92 count as founder is because they thought that they are rare in non-Romas. This is their definition of founder: "we include as founder lineages those haplogroups common in Roma (with frequencies over 5%) and not present or rare (<2%) in other Europeans."
If you were to check the supplementary tables, you can see that E-V13 and I-P37.2 are just as popular and if not more in some countries among Romas from there. But they are not counted as founder lineages simply due to having a <2% frequency in Europeans.


The M67 and M92 in Romas was probably picked in Europe and at farthest length in West Asia. There are Roma samples from villages in Romania at least that are purely H.


And in that study about founder lineages too there were Romas who scored only H (those in Bulgaria) and other minor for them haplos. Unless they split somewhere in West Asia and arrived separately, that seems strange.


There's also this "minor" thing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania) that foreigners might not be familiar with that got abolished 150 years ago, and which made paternal geneflow from Romas to hosts kind of impossible at least in Romania, due to the realities of the time. Only the opposite could happen theoretically, host to Roma. Nowadays, obviously people are more open-minded and at least those in my generation more often than not do not discriminate and find Romanian-Roma relationships and marriages in no way different from Romanian-Romanian. But that obviously doesn't explain the rate of J2-M67 and M92, firstly because of the short timespan since abolition and secondly because if we accept that everything M67 and M92 related comes from Roma then we need to remember that those are relatively minor lineages among them, with H clearly dominating by far. But H is observed in few Romanians and I'm sure that in those that bear it, it is also obvious autosomally as the mixing must have happened relatively recent (up to 3 generations in the past at most).

Aspar
09-04-2020, 11:19 AM
Sorry, I have to break my answer into two parts, because otherwise the captcha prevents me from posting.




Also, if I'm permitted to critique, the only reason why M67 and M92 count as founder is because they thought that they are rare in non-Romas. This is their definition of founder: "we include as founder lineages those haplogroups common in Roma (with frequencies over 5%) and not present or rare (<2%) in other Europeans."
If you were to check the supplementary tables, you can see that E-V13 and I-P37.2 are just as popular and if not more in some countries among Romas from there. But they are not counted as founder lineages simply due to having a <2% frequency in Europeans.


The M67 and M92 in Romas was probably picked in Europe and at farthest length in West Asia. There are Roma samples from villages in Romania at least that are purely H.


And in that study about founder lineages too there were Romas who scored only H (those in Bulgaria) and other minor for them haplos. Unless they split somewhere in West Asia and arrived separately, that seems strange.


There's also this "minor" thing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania) that foreigners might not be familiar with that got abolished 150 years ago, and which made paternal geneflow from Romas to hosts kind of impossible at least in Romania, due to the realities of the time. Only the opposite could happen theoretically, host to Roma. Nowadays, obviously people are more open-minded and at least those in my generation more often than not do not discriminate and find Romanian-Roma relationships and marriages in no way different from Romanian-Romanian. But that obviously doesn't explain the rate of J2-M67 and M92, firstly because of the short timespan since abolition and secondly because if we accept that everything M67 and M92 related comes from Roma then we need to remember that those are relatively minor lineages among them, with H clearly dominating by far. But H is observed in few Romanians and I'm sure that in those that bear it, it is also obvious autosomally as the mixing must have happened relatively recent (up to 3 generations in the past at most).

That's not what this paper from 2015 found (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4867443/) about the Gypsies and their founding lineages:


In addition to H-M52 and its derivate H-M82 haplogroups, three non-Indian lineages (I-P259, J-M92, and J-M67) were defined as founders (Figure 1 and Supplementary Figure S1). I-P259 is present in all Roma groups (except in Spanish Roma) and absent in our non-Roma populations (with the exception of one Hungarian). The I-P259 network showed a star-like profile with reduced internal diversity (Supplementary Figure S2B). This suggests that the mutation might have appeared in the Roma population very recently and probably once, and spread due to drift. The founder lineages J-M92 and J-M67 are present in both Roma and hosts, as well as in the populations found in the Roma migration way out-of-India.

https://i.postimg.cc/YSYWP98j/gypsy.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


For the other haplogroups frequent in Roma (E-V13, I-P37.2, J-M410, and R-M17), no pattern of founder lineages was found and may represent gene flow from their hosts (Supplementary Figures S2G–J).

So your reasoning is not correct, I-P37 and E-V13 are not considered founding lineages because they don't show such patterns, they are not present in all gypsy populations and no, E-V13 and I-P37 are for sure not numerically more significant in the Gypsy populations than J-M67 is. The flow of E-V13 and I-P37 among the Gypsies are later phenomenons, postdating their formation. While your remark about non-European lineages included in their interpretation of 'founding lineages' among the Gypsies only applies to H-M52 not for J-M67 and M92 so you got that wrong.

eastara
09-04-2020, 11:45 AM
[QUOTE=Dorkymon;


The M67 and M92 in Romas was probably picked in Europe and at farthest length in West Asia. There are Roma samples from villages in Romania at least that are purely H.


And in that study about founder lineages too there were Romas who scored only H (those in Bulgaria) and other minor for them haplos. Unless they split somewhere in West Asia and arrived separately, that seems strange.


There's also this "minor" thing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania) that foreigners might not be familiar with that got abolished 150 years ago, and which made paternal geneflow from Romas to hosts kind of impossible at least in Romania, due to the realities of the time. Only the opposite could happen theoretically, host to Roma. Nowadays, obviously people are more open-minded and at least those in my generation more often than not do not discriminate and find Romanian-Roma relationships and marriages in no way different from Romanian-Romanian. But that obviously doesn't explain the rate of J2-M67 and M92, firstly because of the short timespan since abolition and secondly because if we accept that everything M67 and M92 related comes from Roma then we need to remember that those are relatively minor lineages among them, with H clearly dominating by far. But H is observed in few Romanians and I'm sure that in those that bear it, it is also obvious autosomally as the mixing must have happened relatively recent (up to 3 generations in the past at most).[/QUOTE]

It is not clear if by "slaves" they did not mean just "serfs", which many ethic Romanians were also at some point like the Russians. Russian serfs could also be bought and sold until 1860 as is the subject of the famous novel "Dead souls" by N.Gogol. I think there are least a few people in Romania/Moldova found with the typical Roma haplogroup H1a as in most Balkan countries. The confusions for the mix up with Romanians comes from the name Roma they insist to be called now.
However it seems the new study about the full genome of Roma Y chromosome has just come out. Unfortunately I don't see any usable results, the haplogroups are shown alphanumerically only. There is a table in the Supplementary showing the new SNPs for H1a, I1 and J2a-M91, but not the known ones.
There are also no Roma from Bulgaria, only from Macedonia(The paper says Macedonia, not North Macedonia, should it be taken down from the site?)

Sex-biased patterns shaped the genetic history of Roma

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-71066-y

Dorkymon
09-04-2020, 01:50 PM
That's not what this paper from 2015 found about the Gypsies and their founding lineages:


So your reasoning is not correct, they are not present in all gypsy populations

Neither is J-M67, J-M92 and J-M172 in general present among all of them. Where do you see that? Especially in Romania, where there is a Roma village with 35 samples, where 34 are H and one is E-V13: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497311000020

And you have another example in Bulgarian Rudari Romas lacking J from the image that you quoted. It's likely that they picked it somewhere in the Balkans or West Asia and then it became kind of specific among them, because the same paper that you quoted says that their haplotype variety of M67 and M92 is not shared with Romanians, despite quite a few Romanians from that paper scoring M67 and one M92.


While your remark about non-European lineages included in their interpretation of 'founding lineages' among the Gypsies only applies to H-M52 not for J-M67 and M92 so you got that wrong.

J-M67 and J-M92 are probably non-European lineages that came from West Asia to Iran. We just don't know when they were introduced to Europe.

eastara
09-04-2020, 02:30 PM
The founding haplogroup J2a among Roma was obviously picked somewhere in Iran or Anatolia and I1 somewhere in Europe, but very early during their entry in Europe, so they are present in all Roma groups. We already have a couple of Roma with Big Y for their I1 and it is obvious this is not connected to other common Balkan I1 lineages. It is a very long branch from the base of I-Z141,which is predominantly West European so it is a mystery how they got it.
The latest study above does not clear the mystery which J2a-M92 are the Roma related to, either.

J Man
09-04-2020, 03:23 PM
Neither is J-M67, J-M92 and J-M172 in general present among all of them. Where do you see that? Especially in Romania, where there is a Roma village with 35 samples, where 34 are H and one is E-V13: www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497311000020

And you have another example in Bulgarian Rudari Romas lacking J from the image that you quoted. It's likely that they picked it somewhere in the Balkans or West Asia and then it became kind of specific among them, because the same paper that you quoted says that their haplotype variety of M67 and M92 is not shared with Romanians, despite quite a few Romanians from that paper scoring M67 and one M92.



J-M67 and J-M92 are probably non-European lineages that came from West Asia to Iran. We just don't know when they were introduced to Europe.

Yes the J2a-M67 and J2a-M92 "founder" lineages among the Romany were most likely picked up somewhere in West Asia before they reached Europe. They are unique to the Roma and are defined by certain SNPs. If most Romanian J2a does not come from either of these lineages then indeed it is unlikely that most of it is on Romany origins.

How much of a possibility is there that a lot of the J2a among ethnic Romanians came from Jewish admixture?

Dorkymon
09-04-2020, 04:22 PM
Yes the J2a-M67 and J2a-M92 "founder" lineages among the Romany were most likely picked up somewhere in West Asia before they reached Europe. They are unique to the Roma and are defined by certain SNPs. If most Romanian J2a does not come from either of these lineages then indeed it is unlikely that most of it is on Romany origins.

How much of a possibility is there that a lot of the J2a among ethnic Romanians came from Jewish admixture?

As unlikely as Roma, because well Jews were urban folk, but most Romanians were villagers until the early 20th century, when Jews began to "leave".

J Man
09-04-2020, 05:53 PM
As unlikely as Roma, because well Jews were urban folk, but most Romanians were villagers until the early 20th century, when Jews began to "leave".

I would love to see some more J2a samples from ethnic Romanians that have their origins in the old countryside villages tested. I find the old Romanian "peasant" culture to be very interesting. Hopefully more Y-DNA studies on this population are done in the future. For example more samples from the old villages of Maramures would be amazing! Unfortunately a lot of the samples in the Romanian DNA Project at FTDNA do not even seem to come from true ethnic Romanians. There are a lot of Jewish samples in that project it seems.

mihaitzateo
09-07-2020, 05:01 PM
Well, 45% R1B in Suceava county, lots of differences between different Romania counties, I do not think that the data is so accurate.
I do remember a more old test, for Prahova and Dobrogea county, Prahova was scoring 38% I Y-DNA summed - the test was not made in depth, to see how much I2 and how much I1 is there.
Anyway it would be interesting to know the Y DNA from Romania.

mihaitzateo
09-07-2020, 05:33 PM
I cannot believe all R1b/J2 there are from Romans, or all E-V13 are Daco-Thracian.

Most R1B are East Europe Celts - see Galati county from Romania, which have taken the name from East Euro Celtic tribe of Galati - a treasure with ancient greek coins was found in Galati county, having written on them "Galati" - think are like 2000 yrs old.
Arges is also said to have significant East Euro Celts ancestry,being said that the name is of Celtic origins - see 33% R1B there but only from 6 samples.
G2A is also said to be Celticized ancient Neolithic Europeans, see plenty of G2A in Romania , which is not found in neighboring countries :) .
From these results it becomes clear that Dacia/Romania became the refuge of most East Euro Celts, that were received by Dacians, settled here and later naturalized.

vettor
09-07-2020, 05:38 PM
Most R1B are East Europe Celts - see Galati county from Romania, which have taken the name from East Euro Celtic tribe of Galati - a treasure with ancient greek coins was found in Galati county, having written on them "Galati" - think are like 2000 yrs old.
Arges is also said to have significant East Euro Celts ancestry,being said that the name is of Celtic origins - see 33% R1B there but only from 6 samples.
G2A is also said to be Celticized ancient Neolithic Europeans, see plenty of G2A in Romania , which is not found in neighboring countries :) .
From these results it becomes clear that Dacia/Romania became the refuge of most East Euro Celts, that were received by Dacians, settled here and later naturalized.

never heard of galati .....do you mean getae ?
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Getae

mihaitzateo
09-07-2020, 05:42 PM
never heard of galati .....do you mean getae ?
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Getae

No, the Galatians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatians_(people)
Currently, Dorkymon does not have data about Y DNA from Galati county.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gala%C8%9Bi

Here is an article in Italian, about these South Eastern European Celts:
http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/galati/

Galati is how the ancient Greeks were calling South Eastern Euro Celts.

Getae were Dacians tribe located in SE Romania, probably near our days Bucharest,or so.

mihaitzateo
09-07-2020, 06:05 PM
Before JMan asks me, about 65% of J2 falls under J2a-M410 and 35% under J2b-M241. ;)
In a study about the individuals bearing the "Basarab" surname, the name of the founding house of Wallachia, which is thought to be of Cuman origin, most of the individuals (like 90% of J2) were J2b-M241. This is in stark contrast to the spread among regular folk, where J2a seems to dominate.

J2B-M241 could not be of Cuman Origins.
J2B-M421 is European J2B.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/m241?iframe=yresults

mihaitzateo
09-07-2020, 07:16 PM
Nope



They might have been of Greco-Roman Imperial stock to be more precise, and they probably Romanised the population. Vlachs score 33% of J2, so that can't be a coincidence.
Greeks who migrated in the 19-20th centuries were very few in numbers to explain such big percentages.
We cannot say for sure that all J2 from Romania is Greeco-Roman.
Albanians also have high J2 so a part of Romania J2 can be of South Dacians/Thracians origins.
MT-DNA of Romanians clusters to Latvia and Lithuania,so we are Dacians, on MT-DNA.
I knew that average R1A in Romania is around 20%, we need more data, to see exact numbers.
From I2, I think is not Slavic.
Already said, I2-din has appeared 2200 yrs ago, not 1400 yrs ago,when Slavic migration wa.
A part of J2 can also be Dacians,same with a part of I2,see that Lithuania do have I2-din and they also have some J2.
R1A is mostly Dacians,I think.

Bruzmi
09-13-2020, 02:21 PM
I pulled together all the sources that I could find and came up with about 1200 regional samples.


The quality of work done by Dorkymon is impressive. Great job!

Now, I think that the first step in order to properly examine these results is to document historical population movement in each of these areas. Two interesting papers about this issue were published in Studia Antiqua et Archaeologica No XIII-XIV (2007-2008) (http://saa.uaic.ro/issues/xiii-xiv/)

Lucrețiu MIHAILESCU‐BĪRLIBA, L’origine des augustaux et de leurs familles en Dacie romaine has documented the anthroponymy in Roman settlements in Mehedinti, Oltenia. The high % of settlers from Syria and the East Med region in general may have contributed to J2 lineages.

DOBRUNA‐SALIHU, Some aspects of Illyrian life in Dacia has documented Illyrian anthroponymy in Alburnus Maior/Rosa Montana, a major center of Illyrian miners that were resettled there by the Romans. This influx must have contributed at some level to E-V13 (11%) - but also R1b - lineages in Alba, Transylvania.

J Man
09-14-2020, 05:24 PM
Here is an interesting thread from the Serbian DNA Project which is about Y-DNA results from areas of Eastern Serbia. Some of them seem to be of Vlach/Romanian origin.

https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=3906.0

J Man
09-18-2020, 02:00 PM
Have any Romanian members here tested with 23andme?

Dorkymon
09-18-2020, 02:29 PM
Have any Romanian members here tested with 23andme?

what members? :biggrin1:

J Man
09-18-2020, 07:30 PM
what members? :biggrin1:

Members of this forum. Anthrogenica members/users.

Dorkymon
09-18-2020, 09:43 PM
Members of this forum. Anthrogenica members/users.

There are barely any, hence my sarcasm.

J Man
09-19-2020, 02:00 AM
There are barely any, hence my sarcasm.

Sarcasm can be a bit hard to detect through text even with certain emojis sometimes lol...Have you tested with 23andme yourself?

digital_noise
09-19-2020, 05:36 AM
Sarcasm can be a bit hard to detect through text even with certain emojis sometimes lol...Have you tested with 23andme yourself?

Based on the link in his signature, he has.

Dorkymon
09-19-2020, 06:32 AM
Sarcasm can be a bit hard to detect through text even with certain emojis sometimes lol...Have you tested with 23andme yourself?

Yep, as digital_noise pointed, you can see my results in the signature.

J Man
09-19-2020, 09:08 AM
Yep, as digital_noise pointed, you can see my results in the signature.

Ahh ok thanks I never clicked on that link before. Do you have any ethnic Romanian J2a "genetic cousin" matches on your Relative Finder list?

Dorkymon
09-19-2020, 10:14 AM
Ahh ok thanks I never clicked on that link before. Do you have any ethnic Romanian J2a "genetic cousin" matches on your Relative Finder list?

No, mine are mostly R1a, I2a and R1b. Of the J2, there are only those who fall under J2b.

Dorkymon
09-19-2020, 11:02 AM
Ahh ok thanks I never clicked on that link before. Do you have any ethnic Romanian J2a "genetic cousin" matches on your Relative Finder list?

Nevermind the above message, which I am not allowed to edit for some reason.
The rate of haplogroups has changed, since I last checked a couple of years back.

I have 38 Romanian relatives with yDNA, and this is the rate of haplogroups:



R1a-CTS3402
5


R1a-Z93
1


R1a-CTS1211
1


R1a-M417
6


R1a-L260
1


R1b-M405
2


R1b-L21
2


R1b-U152
1


R1b-Y5587
2


E-V13
5


J2a-L70
1


J2a-L26
1


J2a-L243
1


J2a-L25
1


J2a-M92
1


I2a-Z16983
1


I2a-S17250
1


I2a-CTS5966
1


I2a-Z17855
1


J2b-L283
1


G2a-L30
1


J1-CTS5368
1






R1a
14


R1b
7


J2
6


E-V13
5


I2
4


G2
1


J1
1






R1a
37%


R1b
18%


J2
16%


E-V13
13%


I2
11%


G2
3%


J1
3%

J Man
09-19-2020, 02:07 PM
Nevermind the above message, which I am not allowed to edit for some reason.
The rate of haplogroups has changed, since I last checked a couple of years back.

I have 38 Romanian relatives with yDNA, and this is the rate of haplogroups:



R1a-CTS3402
5


R1a-Z93
1


R1a-CTS1211
1


R1a-M417
6


R1a-L260
1


R1b-M405
2


R1b-L21
2


R1b-U152
1


R1b-Y5587
2


E-V13
5


J2a-L70
1


J2a-L26
1


J2a-L243
1


J2a-L25
1


J2a-M92
1


I2a-Z16983
1


I2a-S17250
1


I2a-CTS5966
1


I2a-Z17855
1


J2b-L283
1


G2a-L30
1


J1-CTS5368
1






R1a
14


R1b
7


J2
6


E-V13
5


I2
4


G2
1


J1
1






R1a
37%


R1b
18%


J2
16%


E-V13
13%


I2
11%


G2
3%


J1
3%



Interesting thank you...None of your J2a matches have origins in Maramures or Wallachia eh?

Dorkymon
09-19-2020, 02:26 PM
Interesting thank you...None of your J2a matches have origins in Maramures or Wallachia eh?

L26 and L25 are from Republic of Moldova, while L243 is from Romania's Moldavia, and M92 is from Arad in Crisana region (sometimes considered part of Transylvania).
L70 is actually fully Jewish, now that I've looked closer.

J Man
09-19-2020, 05:44 PM
L26 and L25 are from Republic of Moldova, while L243 is from Romania's Moldavia, and M92 is from Arad in Crisana region (sometimes considered part of Transylvania).
L70 is actually fully Jewish, now that I've looked closer.

Interesting thank you very much.

Dorkymon
09-19-2020, 09:26 PM
[quotes deleted post]

Maybe in your case if you have South Asian ancestry yourself and pull them, but in my case they don't have any other ethnic ancestry. Romas are mostly H, those with West Eurasian haplogroups are probably heavier mixed than usual.

Dorkymon
09-20-2020, 09:54 AM
[quotes deleted post]

Nice to meet you, Cumansky, come again.

J Man
09-20-2020, 01:57 PM
He was removed. :lol:

Radka
09-21-2020, 12:16 PM
Hello to all Romanian friends. My name is Radka Simeonova and I am from Bulgaria. Recently I found out that our neighbours Serbia and Greece gave ancient samples to David Reich's lab in Harvard. In Bulgaria we started collecting samples from different sites and we will send them either. It will be great if Romania participate as well. Is there any of you who can makes the arangements or knows archeologists ready to give ancient samples to be tested? If there is someone who can organize the process of collecting and sending the ancient samples that's David Reich's contact details https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/contact

eastara
09-21-2020, 12:41 PM
Hello to all Romanian friends. My name is Radka Simeonova and I am from Bulgaria. Recently I found out that our neighbours Serbia and Greece gave ancient samples to David Reich's lab in Harvard. In Bulgaria we started collecting samples from different sites and we will send them either. It will be great if Romania participate as well. Is there any of you who can makes the arangements or knows archeologists ready to give ancient samples to be tested? If there is someone who can organize the process of collecting and sending the ancient samples that's David Reich's contact details https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/contact

It would be very interesting if Romanian archaeologists have some remains from Dobrugea 7-9c. as this was the hinterland of the Old Bulgars. In fact the whole of Eastern Romania and Transylvania was a part of the Firsts Bulgarian Empire until it lost the territory North of the Danube to the Pechenegs in 10th c.

Dorkymon
09-21-2020, 01:08 PM
It would be very interesting if Romanian archaeologists have some remains from Dobrugea 7-9c. as this was the hinterland of the Old Bulgars. In fact the whole of Eastern Romania and Transylvania was a part of the Firsts Bulgarian Empire until it lost the territory North of the Danube to the Pechenegs in 10th c.

Of course they do, only that so far they looked at mtDNA.

There are 2 papers on that:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0193578
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-37760-8

Dorkymon
09-21-2020, 01:31 PM
Hello to all Romanian friends. My name is Radka Simeonova and I am from Bulgaria. Recently I found out that our neighbours Serbia and Greece gave ancient samples to David Reich's lab in Harvard. In Bulgaria we started collecting samples from different sites and we will send them either. It will be great if Romania participate as well. Is there any of you who can makes the arangements or knows archeologists ready to give ancient samples to be tested? If there is someone who can organize the process of collecting and sending the ancient samples that's David Reich's contact details https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/contact

Hi, if someone knows the process and has all the details, then they could try to write to these guys from unis. They should know English.



University of Babes-Bolyai Cluj
http://bioge.ubbcluj.ro/pages/biologie/ro/personal/

Department of Genetics at University of Bucharest
Assoc. Alexandra Simion-Gruiţă, PhD – Director
[email protected]; alexa[email protected]
Prof.dr. Ileana Stoica – Director Master
[email protected]

Lab of Human Genetics at University of Craiova
lgugeneticamedicala.ro


Pharmaceutical University of Cluj
[email protected]

Radka
09-21-2020, 01:54 PM
I know it's a longshot, but I can write them an email introducing what can they do if they want to participate. The problem is that the conversation and the request for testing should start from you /your country/. I think this is a big issue for most of the participants. I know it was for us.

eastara
09-22-2020, 06:40 AM
Of course they do, only that so far they looked at mtDNA.

There are 2 papers on that:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0193578
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-37760-8

Yes, we know about the study with Capidava remains, but they are from a later period and Christian burials, so can't prove the ethnicity of those buried there. We need remains from pagan steppe graves around 7-9 c. We are not happy by the choice of samples in the Nesheva's Old Bulgars mtDNA study for the same reason.

Dorkymon
02-10-2021, 05:50 PM
Update



Haplogroup
Oltenia
Muntenia
Dobrogea
Wallachia
Transylvania
Moldavia
Republic of Moldova


R1b
15%
15%
18%
15%
19.5%
13%
10.5%


R1a
20%
12%
8%
15%
19%
18%
30%


I2
26%
23%
38%
25%
25.5%
32%
29%


J2
13%
19%
8%
16%
13%
14%
5%


E1b1b
15.5%
16%
8%
16%
12%
10%
14%


J1
1%
2%
0%
1%
1%
1%
2%


G2a
2%
6%
13%
5%
2%
3%
1%


I1
5.5%
4%
0%
4%
3%
6%
3.5%


N1c
0.5%
1%
5%
1%
2%
2%
3%


T
0.5%
1%
0%
1%
2%
0%
2%


G1
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


Q1
0%
0.5%
0%
1%
1%
0%
0%


E (other)
1%
0%
2%
1%
0%
0%
0%


Other
0%
0.5%
0%
0%
0%
1%
0%


Total
234
293
39
566
340
191
229

Riverman
02-10-2021, 06:17 PM
Update



Haplogroup
Oltenia
Muntenia
Dobrogea
Wallachia
Transylvania
Moldavia
Republic of Moldova


R1b
15%
15%
18%
15%
19.5%
13%
10.5%


R1a
20%
12%
8%
15%
19%
18%
30%


I2
26%
23%
38%
25%
25.5%
32%
29%


J2
13%
19%
8%
16%
13%
14%
5%


E1b1b
15.5%
16%
8%
16%
12%
10%
14%


J1
1%
2%
0%
1%
1%
1%
2%


G2a
2%
6%
13%
5%
2%
3%
1%


I1
5.5%
4%
0%
4%
3%
6%
3.5%


N1c
0.5%
1%
5%
1%
2%
2%
3%


T
0.5%
1%
0%
1%
2%
0%
2%


G1
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


Q1
0%
0.5%
0%
1%
1%
0%
0%


E (other)
1%
0%
2%
1%
0%
0%
0%


Other
0%
0.5%
0%
0%
0%
1%
0%


Total
234
293
39
566
340
191
229



That's a fairly large sample by now. I wonder about Dobrogea, quite high combination of R1b, I2 and G2 at the expense of other lineages. All ethnic Romanians and is there some kind of special settlement history?

J Man
02-10-2021, 07:30 PM
Update



Haplogroup
Oltenia
Muntenia
Dobrogea
Wallachia
Transylvania
Moldavia
Republic of Moldova


R1b
15%
15%
18%
15%
19.5%
13%
10.5%


R1a
20%
12%
8%
15%
19%
18%
30%


I2
26%
23%
38%
25%
25.5%
32%
29%


J2
13%
19%
8%
16%
13%
14%
5%


E1b1b
15.5%
16%
8%
16%
12%
10%
14%


J1
1%
2%
0%
1%
1%
1%
2%


G2a
2%
6%
13%
5%
2%
3%
1%


I1
5.5%
4%
0%
4%
3%
6%
3.5%


N1c
0.5%
1%
5%
1%
2%
2%
3%


T
0.5%
1%
0%
1%
2%
0%
2%


G1
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%


Q1
0%
0.5%
0%
1%
1%
0%
0%


E (other)
1%
0%
2%
1%
0%
0%
0%


Other
0%
0.5%
0%
0%
0%
1%
0%


Total
234
293
39
566
340
191
229



J2 looks about the same as the first chart.

Maslo2020
02-13-2021, 01:20 PM
Hi @Dorkymon

If you are interested in a new result to add to your database on Romanians please PM me an email address, or some other way to reach you. I just made this account and it seems I need no less than 10 posts to be able to send messages to any other Anthro users. I didn't intended to make any posts here firstly. Thank you!

J Man
04-16-2021, 04:27 PM
Anyone here know of any results from any of the villages in the Tihuta Pass area?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tihu%C8%9Ba_Pass