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Pribislav
09-06-2020, 04:11 PM
I'm pleasantly surprised with the quality of this sample. TMRCA for the clade Y3672 is ~3400 years (1400 BC), and samples from Tollense battlefield are dated ~1300-1200 BC.


WEZ15; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; I2-M223>Y3670>L1229>Z2069>Z2059>Z2068>Y3672 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3672/)


Y3670 level: Y6749+ C>A (1A); Z26359+ C>T (1T); Y4189/FGC15074+ C>T (1T); FGC7985/Z2072+ G>C (3C); Z2082+ G>C (1C); Y6748+ T>C (1C)

L1229 level: FGC15087/Y6750+ A>G (1G); S16895+ A>T (1T); S16694+ C>T (1T); FGC15086/Y4747+ C>G (1G); S4893/CTS3796/Z2081+ G>A (1A); Z2100+ G>A (1A)

Z2069 level: *no calls*

Z2059 level: *no calls*

Z2068 level: *no calls*

Y3672 level: Y3682/FGC15092+ A>C (1C); Z2054+ C>T (2T)

Y3672>Y7244 level: Y7541- T>C (1T)

Y3672>Y9443 level: *no calls*

Y3672>FGC15109 level: *no calls*

Y3672>FGC15109>BY138 level: *no calls*

Y3672>FGC15109>Y4332 level: FGC15105- A>T (1A); Y4337/FGC15107- A>G (1A); BY211716- C>G (1C)

Riverman
09-06-2020, 05:09 PM
Looks like the relatives of WEZ15 survived in a mostly Celto-Germanic context, probably rather Celtic than Germanic. Would be interesting to check that for all samples where possible and probably connect it to the autosomal profile and associated weapons and equipment. I'm rather disappointed by the recent Tollense article, the insufficient references, lack of ethnic differentiation and contextual interpretation. I hope for more to come, but the yDNA might pave a way to further interpretation.

ADW_1981
09-06-2020, 05:11 PM
Looks like the relatives of WEZ15 survived in a mostly Celto-Germanic context, probably rather Celtic than Germanic. Would be interesting to check that for all samples where possible and probably connect it to the autosomal profile and associated weapons and equipment. I'm rather disappointed by the recent Tollense article, the insufficient references, ethnic differntiation and lack of contextual interpretation. I hope for more to come, but the yDNA might pave a way to further interpretation.

Hopefully Pribislav can continue looking through these genomes. The older articles suggested some of the warriors were not local, so a more southern origin in west-central Europe is quite likely.

Riverman
09-06-2020, 05:37 PM
Hopefully Pribislav can continue looking through these genomes. The older articles suggested some of the warriors were not local, so a more southern origin in west-central Europe is quite likely.

Its also the equipment and weapons found, because it seems, at least that's one possible intepretation, that one general draft and tribal contingent fought a more mixed bunch of which a larger portion might have been better equipped, even more professional warriors. The better equipped party went into a trap at a narrow path or crossing of the Tollense and was brought in disarray by heavy volleys of arrows, of which many were rather primitive for the time, but did their job, so coming from the more tribal contingent. Would be interesting whether one could find differences based on that between the bodies - like those with more elaborated, probably somewhat more Southern gear vs. more simple tribal warriors.

Many of the bodies were robbed of their equipment, but some were not, because they were hidden under water level soon after their death. Those are the most interesting ones, first because of their more complete equipment as such, secondly because many of the winning parties victims might have been taken away and buried at another place. If somebody knows whether we have data from one of these, this would be particularly interesting, because they died and were left alone with the equipment they had on their body at the time of their death. Some even had a primitive form of money and kind of a purse. Like knights on campaign thousands of years later. This was a very rare find, but I think it might have been more common than most people realise - just not included in the regular burial all too often.

Dewsloth
09-06-2020, 05:49 PM
Those are the most interesting ones, first because of their more complete equipment as such, secondly because many of the winning parties victims might have been taken away and buried at another place. If somebody knows whether we have data from one of these, this would be particularly interesting, because they died and were left alone with the equipment they had on their body at the time of their death.



Maybe the “winners” who recovered their dead practiced cremation?

Riverman
09-06-2020, 06:22 PM
Maybe the “winners” who recovered their dead practiced cremation?

I don't know, I'm not even sure to which cultural formation they can be attributed with any certainty. But whatever the case, some of the equipment found is generally rare, because even in cases of inhumation, it was no regular grave good. Like we found at "Oetzi" equipment too which is not all to common in burials and would not have have remained intact under different circumstances anyway. This is similar in a way, because only such deads which were not robbed or "properly" buried got some of the equipment.

Pribislav
09-07-2020, 01:48 PM
I somehow missed it the first time, but Balto-Slavic-like sample WEZ56 indeed has one derived call at Z283 level. Nothing derived below Z283 though, and only a few notable negatives.

WEZ56; 1300-1200 BC; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; R1a-Z283 (xM458,Z92,YP340) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z283/)


M459 level: CTS11706+ A>T (1T); M602+ C>T (1T); M754/CTS10042/PF6207+ C>T (1T)

M198 level: L168+ A>G (1G); CTS3004/M669+ C>T (1T); M747/CTS9690+ C>G (1G); F3337+ G>A (1A); CTS2891/M664+ T>C (1C)

M417 level: *no calls*

Z645 level: *no calls*

Z283 level: Z662/CTS11197/PF6225+ C>A (1A)

Z282 level: *no calls*

Z282>PF6155>M458 level: M458/PF6241- A>G (19A)

Z282>Y2395>Z284 level: *no calls*

Z282>Z280>S24902 level: *no calls*

Z282>Z280>Z92 level: Z660/S344/CTS91- T>G (1T)

Z282>Z280>CTS1211 level: *no calls*

Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340 level: FGC2563/YP653- G>A (1G); FGC2594/M12460/Y4017- T>C (1T)

Riverman
09-07-2020, 01:51 PM
I somehow missed it the first time, but Balto-Slavic-like sample WEZ56 indeed has one derived call at Z283 level. Nothing derived below Z283 though, and only a few notable negatives.

WEZ56; 1300-1200 BC; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; R1a-Z283 (xM458,Z92,YP340) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z283/)


M459 level: CTS11706+ A>T (1T); M602+ C>T (1T); M754/CTS10042/PF6207+ C>T (1T)

M198 level: L168+ A>G (1G); CTS3004/M669+ C>T (1T); M747/CTS9690+ C>G (1G); F3337+ G>A (1A); CTS2891/M664+ T>C (1C)

M417 level: *no calls*

Z645 level: *no calls*

Z283 level: Z662/CTS11197/PF6225+ C>A (1A)

Z282 level: *no calls*

Z282>PF6155>M458 level: M458/PF6241- A>G (19A)

Z282>Y2395>Z284 level: *no calls*

Z282>Z280>S24902 level: *no calls*

Z282>Z280>Z92 level: Z660/S344/CTS91- T>G (1T)

Z282>Z280>CTS1211 level: *no calls*

Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340 level: FGC2563/YP653- G>A (1G); FGC2594/M12460/Y4017- T>C (1T)

Do you know something about the samples archaeological context? I couldn't find a resource on that.

Pribislav
09-07-2020, 02:15 PM
WEZ35; 1300-1200 BC; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; R1b-P312 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/)


M269 level: M269/PF6517/MF53029+ T>C (7C); L777/YSC0000248+ T>C (1C); PF6461/FGC43/CTS4608+ T>C (1C)

L23 level: PF6404+ T>C (1C)

Z2103 level: CTS7340/Z2107- T>C (1T)

L51 level: *no calls*

L51>Z2118 level: Z2119/CTS7153- G>C (1G)

L51>L52 level: *no calls*

L51>L52>L151 level: *no calls*

L51>L52>L151>U106 level: U106/S21/M405- C>T (4C)

L51>L52>L151>P312 level: P312/S116/PF6547/MF52579+ C>A (10A)

Pribislav
09-07-2020, 03:03 PM
WEZ15; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; I2-M223>Y3670>L1229>Z2069>Z2059>Z2068>Y3672 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3672/)

Regarding WEZ15, I found in my Ancient I2 spreadsheet that one of the Langobard samples from Hungary (SZ43) has been reported by someone as Y3672>Y9443>L812, so I checked his Y-calls since he is shotgun sequenced to exceptional depth (~14,5). And it turns out he doesn't belong to Y9443, but to parallel subclade Y3672>FGC15109>BY138*. He has all SNPs from downstream subclades covered (both from YFull and FTDNA block tree), and all are ancestral. He's been submitted to YFull, so he might form new clade with one of the existing modern BY138* individuals.

Whether subclade Y3672 is of local (post-Unetice?) origin, or of more western proto-Celtic origin, it seems it has been assimilated by Early Germanic tribes from Jastorf culture. Langobard homeland is just a little bit southwest of Tollense Valley.



SZ43; 600-650 AD; Szolad; Hungary; Langobard; I2a2a1a2a1a-Y3672>FGC15109>BY138* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-BY138/)


Y3672 level: Y3682/FGC15092+ A>C (7C); Z2054+ C>T (10T); FGC15095/Y4717+ C>T (9T-1C); FGC15091/Y3672+ G>T (4T-5G); FGC15085/Y4185+ G>A (5A); FGC15097/Y3673+ G>A (9A); FGC15098/Y3675+ G>A (7A-1G)

FGC15109 level: FGC15109+ G>A (10A)

BY138 level: BY138+ A>T (7T); FT84416+ A>T (9T)

Webb
09-07-2020, 07:27 PM
I somehow missed it the first time, but Balto-Slavic-like sample WEZ56 indeed has one derived call at Z283 level. Nothing derived below Z283 though, and only a few notable negatives.

WEZ56; 1300-1200 BC; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; R1a-Z283 (xM458,Z92,YP340) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z283/)


M459 level: CTS11706+ A>T (1T); M602+ C>T (1T); M754/CTS10042/PF6207+ C>T (1T)

M198 level: L168+ A>G (1G); CTS3004/M669+ C>T (1T); M747/CTS9690+ C>G (1G); F3337+ G>A (1A); CTS2891/M664+ T>C (1C)

M417 level: *no calls*

Z645 level: *no calls*

Z283 level: Z662/CTS11197/PF6225+ C>A (1A)

Z282 level: *no calls*

Z282>PF6155>M458 level: M458/PF6241- A>G (19A)

Z282>Y2395>Z284 level: *no calls*

Z282>Z280>S24902 level: *no calls*

Z282>Z280>Z92 level: Z660/S344/CTS91- T>G (1T)

Z282>Z280>CTS1211 level: *no calls*

Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340 level: FGC2563/YP653- G>A (1G); FGC2594/M12460/Y4017- T>C (1T)

Hello Pribislav, if you have time, could you check WEZ59 and see if he has anything downstream of Z220? Thanks.

Pribislav
09-07-2020, 08:21 PM
Hello Pribislav, if you have time, could you check WEZ59 and see if he has anything downstream of Z220? Thanks.

I'm always suspicious when a subclade is supported by a single C>T or G>A transition, even more so if it has only one read, so however disappointing, P312 is a safer bet in this case.


WEZ59; 1300-1200 BC; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; R1b-P312>DF27>Z195>Z272*? (xZ209,DF17) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z272/)


P312 level: P312/S116/PF6547/MF52579+ C>A (5A-1C)

DF27 level: *no calls*

Z195 level: *no calls*

Z272 level: Z272+ G>A (1A)

Z272>Z209 level: Z220/S356- G>A (1G)

Z272>DF17 level: CTS5083- G>C (1G)

Andour
09-07-2020, 08:42 PM
Hi, Pribislav. My turn to ask for a favor : could you please check and confirm WEZ54 is R-S14469 ? In which case he'd be a distant cousin of mine... :kiss:

uintah106
09-07-2020, 09:40 PM
I'm always suspicious when a subclade is supported by a single C>T or G>A transition, even more so if it has only one read, so however disappointing, P312 is a safer bet in this case.


WEZ59; 1300-1200 BC; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; R1b-P312>DF27>Z195>Z272*? (xZ209,DF17) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z272/)


P312 level: P312/S116/PF6547/MF52579+ C>A (5A-1C)

DF27 level: *no calls*

Z195 level: *no calls*

Z272 level: Z272+ G>A (1A)

Z272>Z209 level: Z220/S356- G>A (1G)

Z272>DF17 level: CTS5083- G>C (1G)

So no R-U106?, mainly P-312 so far north and east interesting. This should be prime U106 country or they are all stuffed up in the NBA.

Pribislav
09-07-2020, 09:43 PM
It seems "Y3672 clan" was one of the major participants in this battle, and probably the one with most casualties, assuming samples were chosen randomly. WEZ15 is the only sample that has SNPs at Y3672 level, but I think it's safe to assume all the other Y3670+ samples were Y3672 as well, they just don't have reads at that level due to lower coverage. So, WEZ15, WEZ24, WEZ39, WEZ48, WEZ51, WEZ64, WEZ71 and WEZ83 all likely belonged to clade:

I2a2a-Y3670>L1229>Z2069>Z2059>Z2068>Y3672 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3672/)


WEZ24: Y3670

Y3670 level: FGC7985/Z2072+ G>C (1C); Z2087+ T>G (1G)

L1229, Z2069, Z2059, Z2068 and Y3672 have no calls.


WE39: Y3670>L1229

Y3670 level: FGC7985/Z2072+ G>C (1C)

L1229 level: Z2101/CTS11650+ G>T (1T)

Z2069, Z2059, Z2068 and Y3672 have no calls.


WEZ48: Y3670

Y3670 level: FGC7985/Z2072+ G>C (1C)

L1229, Z2069, Z2059, Z2068 and Y3672 have no calls.


WEZ51: Y3670>L1229>Z2069>Z2059>Z2068

Y3670 level: FGC7985/Z2072+ G>C (2C)

Z2068 level: Z2068+ C>A (1A)

L1229, Z2069, Z2059 and Y3672 have no calls.


WEZ64: Y3670>L1229>Z2069

Y3670 level: FGC7985/Z2072+ G>C (1C); Z2087+ T>G (1G)

L1229 level: FGC15082/Y3680+ T>C (1C)

Z2069 level: Z2069+ G>A (1A)

Z2059, Z2068 and Y3672 have no calls.


WEZ71: Y3670>L1229

Y3670 level: FGC7985/Z2072+ G>C (2C)

L1229 level: Z2089+ G>A (1A); Z2100+ G>A (1A)

Z2069, Z2059, Z2068 and Y3672 have no calls.


WEZ83: Y3670

Y3670 level: Z2086+ T>C (1C); Z2087+ T>G (2G)

L1229, Z2069, Z2059, Z2068 and Y3672 have no calls.

Pribislav
09-07-2020, 10:02 PM
Hi, Pribislav. My turn to ask for a favor : could you please check and confirm WEZ54 is R-S14469 ? In which case he'd be a distant cousin of mine... :kiss:

Similar thing as with WEZ59, S14469 is a C>T transition covered with only one read, so I'm again more inclined to assign it to P312. Also, there is nothing derived below S14469.


WEZ54; 1300-1200 BC; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; R1b-P312>U152>L2>S14469


P312 level: P312/S116/PF6547/MF52579+ C>A (7A)

U152 level: *no calls*

L2 level: *no calls*

S14469 level: S14469/FGC4183+ C>T (1T)

Pribislav
09-07-2020, 10:23 PM
An unexpected discovery:


WEZ58; 1300-1200 BC; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; I2c-L596>Y14158>S6635>PF3885 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PF3885/)


L596 level: S8609+ C>T (1T); PF3902+ C>T (1T); FGC18579+ G>C (1C)

Y14158 level: FGC18548+ A>G (1G); FGC18542+ G>T (1T); PF6914+ T>A (1A)

S6635 level: S6648+ T>A (1A); S23817+ T>C (1C); S6742? T>G (1A)

PF3885 level: Y38068+ T>C (1C)

Andour
09-07-2020, 10:27 PM
Similar thing as with WEZ59, S14469 is a C>T transition covered with only one read, so I'm again more inclined to assign it to P312. Also, there is nothing derived below S14469.


WEZ54; 1300-1200 BC; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; R1b-P312>U152>L2>S14469


P312 level: P312/S116/PF6547/MF52579+ C>A (7A)

U152 level: *no calls*

L2 level: *no calls*

S14469 level: S14469/FGC4183+ C>T (1T)

Thanks for the prompt answer. Much appreciated.

Dewsloth
09-07-2020, 10:46 PM
So no R-U106?, mainly P-312 so far north and east interesting. This should be prime U106 country or they are all stuffed up in the NBA.

No DF19 or L238, either. They may have all been somewhere else?

Riverman
09-08-2020, 12:06 AM
Urnfield and Hallstatt were game changers, the Iron Age had a huge impact.

However, I think most of the skeletons come from the losing side, which was an alliance, which called in warriors from different places for the campaign.

Most of the dead from the winning side were most likely carried away. There are warrior burials from roughly the same time and place. Its possible that these differed quite a lot, especially paternally, from the majority of the Tollense remains.

uintah106
09-08-2020, 01:00 AM
No DF19 or L238, either. They may have all been somewhere else?

Dont know much about DF19 but L238 seems to be strictly Scandinavian but amazed u106 still seems kind of hiding at this time.

Pribislav
09-08-2020, 01:18 AM
Although Z2114+ is a C>T transition covered with only one read, the fact that WEZ57 definitely isn't P312 or U106 may give some credibility for Z2118 assignment.


WEZ57; 1300-1200 BC; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; R1b-L51>Z2118? (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2118/)


L51 level: FGC39/PF6537/CTS10373+ C>G (1G)

L51>L52 level: *no calls*

L51>L52>L151 level: *no calls*

L51>L52>L151>U106 level: U106/S21/M405- C>T (5C-1T)

L51>L52>L151>P312 level: P312/S116/PF6547/MF52579- C>A (6C)

L51>L52>L151>S1194 level: *no calls*

L51>L52>L151>A8053 level: *no calls*

L51>Z2118 level: Z2114+ C>T (1T)

L51>Z2118>Z4416 level: Y37604- G>T (1G)

L51>Z2118>Z2116 level: *no calls*

L51>Z2118>Z2116>Y5149 level: Y170853- C>T (1C)

L51>Z2118>Z2116>S1161 level & below: *no calls*

Dewsloth
09-08-2020, 01:20 AM
Dont know much about DF19 but L238 seems to be strictly Scandinavian but amazed u106 still seems kind of hiding at this time.

DF19 modern distribution looks a lot like U106 (just far fewer), perhaps forming in Low Countries, Jutland or northern Germany, but nobody has found any in ancient BCE samples despite it being around nearly as long as Uncle U106 and Papa P312.

Riverman
09-08-2020, 07:35 AM
Dont know much about DF19 but L238 seems to be strictly Scandinavian but amazed u106 still seems kind of hiding at this time.

The presumed attacking party were no Proto-Germanics, its simple as that. Where exactly Proto-Germanics lived at this time is another unknown. They might be hiding in the local warrior burials, from the winning side of the conflict, which took most of their dead away, or they might be in a quite different place. We know almost for certain that (Proto-) Germanic must have been there latest with the Jastorf Culture, but anything before this is, at this point, speculative. One of the best ways to clear that up is to follow the pathways and distributions of R1b-U106 and I1. Especially for the later we still have almost nothing from the crucial period and I personally don't expect it to have spread big time before the Nordic Bronze Age. So some time between the NBA and Jastorf, somewhere in Northern Central Europe, we should find a prehistorical cultural formaton with these haplogroups living together and a genetic profile which fits the bill. So far I don't know anybody who can pin it down. It might have been just one province from the NBA sphere, or something still more South of it, who knows for sure.

oz
09-08-2020, 01:04 PM
The presumed attacking party were no Proto-Germanics, its simple as that. Where exactly Proto-Germanics lived at this time is another unknown. They might be hiding in the local warrior burials, from the winning side of the conflict, which took most of their dead away, or they might be in a quite different place. We know almost for certain that (Proto-) Germanic must have been there latest with the Jastorf Culture, but anything before this is, at this point, speculative. One of the best ways to clear that up is to follow the pathways and distributions of R1b-U106 and I1. Especially for the later we still have almost nothing from the crucial period and I personally don't expect it to have spread big time before the Nordic Bronze Age. So some time between the NBA and Jastorf, somewhere in Northern Central Europe, we should find a prehistorical cultural formaton with these haplogroups living together and a genetic profile which fits the bill. So far I don't know anybody who can pin it down. It might have been just one province from the NBA sphere, or something still more South of it, who knows for sure.

I1 obviously wasn't interested in this battle. They were probably just chillin in Scandinavia, building their Viking fleets for raiding.

ADW_1981
09-08-2020, 01:37 PM
Dont know much about DF19 but L238 seems to be strictly Scandinavian but amazed u106 still seems kind of hiding at this time.

This is only 17 results of 170 skeletons who were pieced together. If all 170 had a Y chromosome result, we might get a very different interpretation.

Riverman
09-08-2020, 01:46 PM
This is only 17 results of 170 skeletons who were pieced together. If all 170 had a Y chromosome result, we might get a very different interpretation.

While that's possible, I doubt it, because 17 is already a good number and most of the corpses which were not below water level were robbed. So I simply think we see primarily the dead of the losers of the battle, only those which were below water surface with their equipment, the rest being robbed and left on the spot to rot, like a warning and with no care at all. While its possible that people led their own war heroes rot like that, I doubt it. So we probably deal with one alliance of more Northern-Eastern people which had allies from the relative South, from R1b-dominated networks, which tried to attack another tribal grouping. They were led into a trap along the river and slaughtered.

Its interesting that the only individual with R1a (WEZ56) is a strong outlier, very much North Eastern shifted and found at a spot which is supposed to have been below water level. This might be a sheer coincidence, and he could be just a hired warrior or from an allied group as well, but probably there is more to it. One could imagine a basic I2-dominated regional population, with one group having allies to the relative South (R1b-dominated), whereas the others might have called allies from the relative North East. In any case, I don't think the picture will change all too much by adding more Tollense samples.

But there are warrior burials from the wider region, from the same time, which should be tested too. Probably they are like the Tollense warriors, or they are like the R1a-guy, or they are completely different. Nobody can tell for sure. But then again, I doubt that the winning side let their brothers, cousins and allies rot in the sun, robbed from their valuables. I have my doubts about that.

Andour
09-08-2020, 03:18 PM
Just for fun, my own, tentative, narrative:

Towards the end of the 13C BC, the weather conditions in Europe are reported to have worsened dramatically. It may have had disastrous consequences in northern Europe in terms of crops and sustenance. We know that ca 1200 BC, Europe went berserk - continent-wide. The Sea Peoples went on the rampage. Troy was destroyed, etc...

What do men fight for? Survival, land, profit, gods (and women, but usually on a less extensive scale). If indeed a group ran out of food, it may have started to move into the territories of their south-western neighbors, who were less badly-off. In fact they were probably rather well-off, since, judging by the widespread autosomal range of the dead, they could muster forces from the far corners of an extensive area. This also implies a degree of cultural unity, and long-distance networks of communication and contacts. The jewels found near the corpses also point towards a certain degree of affluence. All the more tempting for people suffering from deprivation.

The warriors were warmly dressed, in fur cloaks. Not very convenient if you have to fight. You'll get rid of that before a battle on a summer day. So the battle probably occurred during the winter, when hunger had reached a peak and prompted people to move.

A bridge is not that useful in the summer, when you can ford shallow rivers. The location of the battle suggests that the people in the process of being invaded tried to block the route their foes came by.

During the course of the 13C BC, the Lusatian Culture replaces the Trzciniec Culture. Trzciniec samples, I seem to remember, are R1a. The Lusatian culture extends further to the west than Trzciniec, with new territories gained... south-west of Tollense. It is also more of a cultural "hybrid" - again, IIRC. With clear Tumulus/Urnfield influences. As the Lusatian Culture emerges, isolated farmsteads are abandoned, and hillforts cover the landscape, attesting to rampant insecurity.

So my guess is that hungry R1a Trzciniec people started their own "Migration Period" into R1b/I2a Tumulus territory, threatening the relative prosperity of their neighbors. The said neighbors tried to organize their own defense, but were defeated at the Tollense bridge. The winners moved south-west, settled, and gradually mixed with what locals were left, from which the Lusatian Culture got its western cultural affinities.

To the south, by domino effect, more migrations started, some westwards from Hungary, which saw the emergence and spread of the Urnfield Culture, then southwards, with Urnfield's rapid extension to the Atlantic and the shores of the Mediterranean - into what was to be P-Celtic territory.

Riverman
09-08-2020, 03:34 PM
By the looks of it, I'd say it could have been a failed punitive expedition. Like the Northerners, hungry for food, made some incursions into their neighbours territories. Those on the other hand, called in allies and mercenaries, gathered a sizeable elite force and wanted to crush their Northern tribal neighbours to punish and silence them once and for all. But instead, they were lured into a trap and slaughtered, paving the way for even more incursions, probably even a counter attack by the Northerners. A typical scenario like we have it in many historical records. This in turn would have created pressure to the South and so on.
I think a huge army was lost, because what was found were primarily those preserved in the wet ground. I guess the whole valley, much beyond that, was covered with corpses after this blood bath and there might have been slained men of the losing party for many kilometers. Because it seems pretty clear that the force was crushed.
Such losses, such a complete defeat is actually rather rare. If it happened, it could change the whole region, lead to big shifts.

ADW_1981
09-08-2020, 04:14 PM
While that's possible, I doubt it, because 17 is already a good number and most of the corpses which were not below water level were robbed. So I simply think we see primarily the dead of the losers of the battle, only those which were below water surface with their equipment, the rest being robbed and left on the spot to rot, like a warning and with no care at all. While its possible that people led their own war heroes rot like that, I doubt it. So we probably deal with one alliance of more Northern-Eastern people which had allies from the relative South, from R1b-dominated networks, which tried to attack another tribal grouping. They were led into a trap along the river and slaughtered.

Its interesting that the only individual with R1a (WEZ56) is a strong outlier, very much North Eastern shifted and found at a spot which is supposed to have been below water level. This might be a sheer coincidence, and he could be just a hired warrior or from an allied group as well, but probably there is more to it. One could imagine a basic I2-dominated regional population, with one group having allies to the relative South (R1b-dominated), whereas the others might have called allies from the relative North East. In any case, I don't think the picture will change all too much by adding more Tollense samples.

But there are warrior burials from the wider region, from the same time, which should be tested too. Probably they are like the Tollense warriors, or they are like the R1a-guy, or they are completely different. Nobody can tell for sure. But then again, I doubt that the winning side let their brothers, cousins and allies rot in the sun, robbed from their valuables. I have my doubts about that.

If they were foreign to the region they might. You don't think they would cart them back to Bavaria or France do you? That's part of the risk they were taking signing up for this thing...whatever it was. If this militia had some greater purpose, they wouldn't have time for burying their dead, as the purpose lay elsewhere. While I think your argument is plausible regarding locals winning and taking away their own dead, I don't think it's hard fact by a long shot. (that the foreign militia lost)

Riverman
09-08-2020, 04:17 PM
If they were foreign to the region they might. You don't think they would cart them back to Bavaria or France do you? That's part of the risk they were taking signing up for this thing...whatever it was. If this militia had some greater purpose, they wouldn't have time for burying their dead, as the purpose lay elsewhere. While I think your argument is plausible regarding locals winning and taking away their own dead, I don't think it's hard fact by a long shot.

I don't think so. Probably a mass burial, a shallow grave or whatever, but not like that. That's reserved for enemies or if you are in a hurry, if being defeated. And some of them were not nobodies, but big men of their ethnic group it seems.

ADW_1981
09-08-2020, 04:37 PM
Are any of the bodies we have YDNA from local? I've seen it suggested that all the YDNA I guys were the same branch, and one of the younger aDNA records has this branch in Langobard central Europe, which suggests the I2 guys were also derived from the south, unless of course he was a descendant from the north I suppose...

Riverman
09-08-2020, 05:00 PM
Edit...

Riverman
09-08-2020, 05:03 PM
Are any of the bodies we have YDNA from local? I've seen it suggested that all the YDNA I guys were the same branch, and one of the younger aDNA records has this branch in Langobard central Europe, which suggests the I2 guys were also derived from the south, unless of course he was a descendant from the north I suppose...

We don't know without testing locals, because that's 3.200 years ago and the list of all the migrations and cultural shifts which might have completely changed the paternal landscape is long. Some haplogroups which were common in Northern Germany in the Middle Bronze Age might have largely disappeared just 200 years later.

The R1a individual WEZ56 might prove to be particularly important, because like I said, it seems he was one of those which were below water level probably, so even if they wanted, even the winners might might not been able to find and recover the body for a proper burial. We know that because some items found in the other water bodies would have been robbed for sure, if the winners could have accessed them. No doubt about that.

ADW_1981
09-08-2020, 05:07 PM
We don't know without testing locals, because that's 3.200 years ago and the list of all the migrations and cultural shifts which might have completely changed the paternal landscape is long. Some haplogroups which were common in Northern Germany in the Middle Bronze Age might have largely disappeared just 200 years later.

The R1a individual WEZ56 might prove to be particularly important, because like I said, it seems he was one of those which were below water level probably, so even if they wanted, even the winners might might not been able to find and recover the body for a proper burial. We know that because some items found in the other water bodies would have been robbed for sure, if the winners could have accessed them. No doubt about that.

If I understand you right, you are suggesting that the winners left very little genetic trace. I find that somewhat hard to believe, which is why we need more than 17 Y signatures. Collecting hundreds if not thousands of your own men and burying them, or even burning their corpses would be a massive task, even for the locals. You've also alluded to a Teutoberg type scenario which is a stretch, no evidence of such a thing here.

Riverman
09-08-2020, 05:28 PM
If I understand you right, you are suggesting that the winners left very little genetic trace. I find that somewhat hard to believe, which is why we need more than 17 Y signatures. Collecting hundreds if not thousands of your own men and burying them, or even burning their corpses would be a massive task, even for the locals. You've also alluded to a Teutoberg type scenario which is a stretch, no evidence of such a thing here.

First of all, the winners usually don't have as many dead. Because many of the losses might be attributed to the volleys of arrows, the disarray, panic and disordered flight. You know from a lot of battles that in such a case of a clear victory, the numbers of the dead of victor : defeated could very well be skewed, like 1:10. Second, the best historical example for a similar situation comes from much later, the Battle of the Teutoburger Forest. When the Romans later came to the battlefield, they found rotten corpses and remains being positioned in a humiliating and gruesome way. But guess what, how many Germanic remains did they found? They reported Roman corpses only.
Because there too:
- The Germanics had not as many dead
- They were close to home anyway
- They buried their heros and relatives properly.

Here, I'd assume, its just the same pattern.

The worst to recover were those from the water and wet ground, which is why the more under water, the more complete the remains. And what a suprise: There we have an R1a guy which is a clear outlier! Might be a sheer coincidence, or rather not.
Those easy to access across the battlefield were easy to recover and since the winners had probably much less dead, especially along the river, where the defeated guys were pushed into, as it seems, or tried to flee over the water, under heavy volleys of arrows and being attacked from all sides, you have a bad chance of finding equal numbers for both parties. Its almost impossible. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of all corpses, even if not all from the winning side were buried, in and directy at the river, where from one, the invading and losing side.

In many battles the losing side was cornered along a river, or close to a bridge, and slaughtered while trying to form up again or just flee. That happened up to modern times, over and over again. We're just looking at a similar situation here. So even if left robbed and rotting, what I doubt for your kinsmen, the vast and overwhelming majority will be the dead bodies of the defeated.

This article from 2017 sums up a lot of details of the battle:
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle

Pribislav
09-08-2020, 06:31 PM
And the last two R1b samples:


WEZ40; 1300-1200 BC; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; R1b-L51 (xZ2118,P312,U106,A8053) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L51/)


L51 level: L51/PF6536/S167/M412/MF39636+ G>A (4A)

L51>Z2118 level: Z2119/CTS7153- G>C (2G)

L51>L52 level: *no calls*

L51>L52>L151 level: *no calls*

L51>L52>L151>P312 level: P312/S116/PF6547/MF52579- C>A (4C)

L51>L52>L151>U106 level: U106/S21/M405- C>T (3C)

L51>L52>L151>S1194 level: *no calls*

L51>L52>L151>A8053 level: Y167333- G>T (1G)



WEZ53; 1300-1200 BC; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; R1b-L51 (xP312,U106,A8053) (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L51/)


L51 level: L51/PF6536/S167/M412/MF39636+ G>A (1A)

L51>Z2118 level: *no calls*

L51>L52 level: *no calls*

L51>L52>L151 level: *no calls*

L51>L52>L151>P312 level: P312/S116/PF6547/MF52579- C>A (2C)

L51>L52>L151>U106 level: U106/S21/M405- C>T (3C)

L51>L52>L151>S1194 level: *no calls*

L51>L52>L151>A8053 level: FT12548/Y167509- C>T (1C)


WEZ53 is M269+, has no calls at L23 level, and is Z2103-, so I believe derived call at L51 level is genuine, despite being a G>A transition covered with only one read.

ADW_1981
09-09-2020, 01:38 AM
Aren't there supposed to be new genomes from Russia in this study too?

Riverman
09-09-2020, 08:42 AM
Aren't there supposed to be new genomes from Russia in this study too?

There are many genomes they list under "this study", but they don't write about them. Its in table one and includes Usatovo and Late Catacomb. But the only thing they write about it concerns the LP. P. 22:


PCR genotype estimates
of 37 individuals from the
following cultures: Eneolithic,
Usatovo, Yamnaya, Early
Catacomb Culture, Developed
Catacomb Culture, Yamnaya-
Poltavkinskaja, Late Catacomb
Culture

Whether they are really new I don't know.

teepean47
09-12-2020, 05:28 PM
There are many genomes they list under "this study", but they don't write about them. Its in table one and includes Usatovo and Late Catacomb. But the only thing they write about it concerns the LP. P. 22:



Whether they are really new I don't know.

Supplementary data has details of the samples.

MOB1
VIN 1
MAJ 9
MAJ 3
MAJ 4
MAJ 5
OVI 2
OVI 3
PEJ 1
POP 1
POP 3
POP 4
RIL 3
SUG 2
VIN 12
VIN 2
LIS 1
LIS 2
PEJ 4
PEJ 5
TEM 2
TEM 4
TEM 5
TEM 7
SUG 5
VIN 3
KAL 1
KAL 2
NIK 1
NIK 7
POD 1
POD 2
KNO 4
LIS 3
NEV 1
NEV 3
NOZ 1

https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j.cub.2020.08.033/attachment/1fe8bc28-e2be-45d4-ad88-51adb1f09987/mmc1.pdf

Korabi
03-03-2021, 01:43 PM
An unexpected discovery:


WEZ58; 1300-1200 BC; 1300-1200 BC; Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern; Germany_LBA; I2c-L596>Y14158>S6635>PF3885 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PF3885/)


L596 level: S8609+ C>T (1T); PF3902+ C>T (1T); FGC18579+ G>C (1C)

Y14158 level: FGC18548+ A>G (1G); FGC18542+ G>T (1T); PF6914+ T>A (1A)

S6635 level: S6648+ T>A (1A); S23817+ T>C (1C); S6742? T>G (1A)

PF3885 level: Y38068+ T>C (1C)

There were 2 Sardinians, and now an Albanian sample was recently added to this branch. Very interesting.