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gjenetiks
09-07-2020, 02:45 AM
One of the best thread topics for Montenegro.

In Crmnica in particular there existed a sort of symbiosis between Montenegrins and Albanians in language and likely tribal mixing.

J Man
09-08-2020, 01:53 PM
This is indeed an interesting topic. In Crmnica there is the Sotonici tribe that has a story of descending from Dukajin but I find that to be unlikely since almost all of the of Sotonici men that have tested so far belong to J2a-Z6065 which of course is not present among Albanian tribe results from Dukajin. I know that in the Brda area of Montenegro the Kuci tribe had a majority Serbian speaking Orthodox Christian component and a minority Albanian speaking Roman Catholic component.

gjenetiks
09-08-2020, 06:43 PM
This is indeed an interesting topic. In Crmnica there is the Sotonici tribe that has a story of descending from Dukajin but I find that to be unlikely since almost all of the of Sotonici men that have tested so far belong to J2a-Z6065 which of course is not present among Albanian tribe results from Dukajin. I know that in the Brda area of Montenegro the Kuci tribe had a majority Serbian speaking Orthodox Christian component and a minority Albanian speaking Roman Catholic component.

Crmnica apparently was a place of slavic-albanian symbiosis. I'm from Shestan, i'm not sure if it was part of this symbiosis, but it's likely. Montenegrins from Crmnica, likely have albanian input and in shestan probably albanians have slavic input. This can explain phenotypical differences of Montenegrins and Albanians there from other Montenegrins and Albanians. Or it could be natural phenotype. Things like this are hard to determine, and DNA doesn't pick it up. 23andme and most other tests have a hard time distinguishing, paleo-balkanic vs slavic.

It seems inter-marriages between slavs and albanians were kind of common in Montenegro between some tribes and families, and not so much in Kosove. I am unaware of when this mixing did occur in Montenegro. From what I've read it was done in the 14th to 15th centuries, but it could have also occurred centuries after that too.

J Man
09-08-2020, 06:51 PM
Crmnica apparently was a place of slavic-albanian symbiosis. I'm from Shestan, i'm not sure if it was part of this symbiosis, but it's likely. Montenegrins from Crmnica, likely have albanian input and in shestan probably albanians have slavic input. This can explain phenotypical differences of Montenegrins and Albanians there from other Montenegrins and Albanians. Or it could be natural phenotype. Things like this are hard to determine, and DNA doesn't pick it up. 23andme and most other tests have a hard time distinguishing, paleo-balkanic vs slavic.

It seems inter-marriages between slavs and albanians were kind of common in Montenegro between some tribes and families, and not so much in Kosove. I am unaware of when this mixing did it occur in Montenegro. From what I've read it was done in the 14th to 15th centuries, but it could have also occurred centuries after that too.

Yes it makes sense that Crmnica could be an area where mixing between Slavic/Serbian speaking Montenegrins and Albanian speakers occurred given it's location....In Kuci I read before that the famous hero Marko Miljanov Popovic was mixed himself. His father was a Slavic/Serbian speaking Kuci man and his mother was Albanian.

Kelmendasi
09-09-2020, 03:52 PM
Yes it makes sense that Crmnica could be an area where mixing between Slavic/Serbian speaking Montenegrins and Albanian speakers occurred given it's location....In Kuci I read before that the famous hero Marko Miljanov Popovic was mixed himself. His father was a Slavic/Serbian speaking Kuci man and his mother was Albanian.
Some other sources I have read actually state that the mother of Marko Miljanov was also from Kuči/Kuši, but belonged to the Milić brotherhood of Orahovo. The Milići belong to the Old Kuči (Staro Kuči or Mrnjavčići), unlike the Popovići whom belong to the Drekalovići. Though I do know that some, such as Robert Elsie, have claimed that his mother was a Catholic Albanian.

J Man
09-09-2020, 04:38 PM
Some other sources I have read actually state that the mother of Marko Miljanov was also from Kuči/Kuši, but belonged to the Milić brotherhood of Orahovo. The Milići belong to the Old Kuči (Staro Kuči or Mrnjavčići), unlike the Popovići whom belong to the Drekalovići. Though I do know that some, such as Robert Elsie, have claimed that his mother was a Catholic Albanian.

His father was certainly a Popovići from the Drekalovići which as you mentioned belongs to Old Kuci.

Kelmendasi
09-09-2020, 07:44 PM
His father was certainly a Popovići from the Drekalovići which as you mentioned belongs to Old Kuci.
The Drekalovići are in fact also known as ôNovo Kučiö or ôNew Kučiö, however what is interesting is that both the Drekalovići and Old Kuči are primarily E-BY165837. So they ultimately share the same paternal ancestor that lived ~550 ybp, or during the late 15th century. The distinction between the brotherhoods probably represents two waves of movement by the Kuši from northwestern Albania during the Medieval.

J Man
09-10-2020, 12:43 AM
The Drekalovići are in fact also known as “Novo Kuči” or “New Kuči”, however what is interesting is that both the Drekalovići and Old Kuči are primarily E-BY165837. So they ultimately share the same paternal ancestor that lived ~550 ybp, or during the late 15th century. The distinction between the brotherhoods probably represents two waves of movement by the Kuši from northwestern Albania during the Medieval.

Ahhh my bad for some reason I thought that the Drekalovići had a tradition of descending from Old Kuči.

Kelmendasi
09-10-2020, 12:29 PM
Ahhh my bad for some reason I thought that the Drekalovići had a tradition of descending from Old Kuči.
There are a number of stories and oral traditions in regards to the origin of the Drekalovići. One of the most prominent is that they descend from the Albanian Kastrioti family through Gjon Kastrioti II, the son of Skanderbeg, whom allegedly left a wife and son behind when fleeing to Italy. This story is obviously fictional since Gjon II was only 12 when he fled to Italy. There is also a tradition among some of the Old Kuči that the Drekalovići are in fact descended from them through a marriage with a woman from the Kelmendi. However, what should be noted is that the Old Kuči and Drekalovići did intermarry so it's clear that most saw the two as either separate or very distant. Another tradition states that they came from the Berisha of North Albania, which is why they were also known as Berisha i Kuq ("Red Berisha") by Albanian-speakers.

gjenetiks
09-10-2020, 05:15 PM
It's interesting, there is a village in podgoric called Progonovići. Might there be any connection with the ancient albanian Progoni noble family?

https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progonovići

Kelmendasi
09-10-2020, 05:46 PM
It's interesting, there is a village in podgoric called Progonovići. Might there be any connection with the ancient albanian Progoni noble family?

https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progonovići
The village of Progonovići belongs to the wider historical region of Lješanska nahija in eastern Montenegro. I do not think there is any direct connection between this village and the Progoni family, it's just that both the name of this village and the Progoni family are derived from the Albanian anthroponym Progon. This does however indicate that there was an Albanian presence in this area of Montenegro. In fact, there are multiple toponyms in this region that attest to an older Albanian element that was gradually assimilated. For example, these include: Goljemadi, Kruse, Buronji, Ćafa, Šinđon etc. The village of Goljemadi is for sure connected to the historical Albanian tribe GojŰmadhi.

Interestingly though, today most of the brotherhoods of Lješanska nahija belong to haplogroups such as I2a-PH908 which are for sure of Slavic origin. However, this is due to the fact that this region has been heavily settled by families that arrived during the 17th century from areas such as Ozrinići, Nikšić and even Herzegovina. Though there are also some native families that have no tradition of having come from elsewhere, I know that one of those families from the village of Kruse has tested via the Serbian Y-DNA Project as E-Z38456.

Edit: Today Progonovići is made up of three major brotherhoods: Radunovići, Radonjići and Roganovići. The Radunovići are believed to have settled in Progonovići in the year 1660, Radonjići stem from the Bezdanovići of Koman, whilst Roganovići arrived from Cuce but are originally from Medun in Kuči.

gjenetiks
09-10-2020, 06:41 PM
The village of Progonovići belongs to the wider historical region of LjeÜanska nahija in eastern Montenegro. I do not think there is any direct connection between this village and the Progoni family, it's just that both the name of this village and the Progoni family are derived from the Albanian anthroponym Progon. This does however indicate that there was an Albanian presence in this area of Montenegro. In fact, there are multiple toponyms in this region that attest to an older Albanian element that was gradually assimilated. For example, these include: Goljemadi, Kruse, Buronji, Ćafa, Őinđon etc. The village of Goljemadi is for sure connected to the historical Albanian tribe GojŰmadhi.

Interestingly though, today most of the brotherhoods of LjeÜanska nahija belong to haplogroups such as I2a-PH908 which are for sure of Slavic origin. However, this is due to the fact that this region has been heavily settled by families that arrived during the 17th century from areas such as Ozrinići, NikÜić and even Herzegovina. Though there are also some native families that have no tradition of having come from elsewhere, I know that one of those families from the village of Kruse has tested via the Serbian Y-DNA Project as E-Z38456.

Edit: Today Progonovići is made up of three major brotherhoods: Radunovići, Radonjići and Roganovići. The Radunovići are believed to have settled in Progonovići in the year 1660, Radonjići stem from the Bezdanovići of Koman, whilst Roganovići arrived from Cuce but are originally from Medun in Kuči.

Very interesting. I believe Novak Djokovic is from Ozrinici tribe, and is I2. I think it's possible he has Albanian admixture too.

Kelmendasi
09-10-2020, 07:04 PM
Very interesting. I believe Novak Djokovic is from Ozrinici tribe, and is I2. I think it's possible he has Albanian admixture too.
Indeed, his paternal origins is from the Ozrinići tribe and he is I2a-PH908 like many others that descend from this tribe. His family belongs to the Damjanovići brotherhood from the village of Čevo, though one of his ancestors named Đoko Damjanović ended up settling in Jasenovo Polje to the north of Nikšić. From there they moved to Kosovo in 1928, and then Belgrade in 1981.

gjenetiks
09-10-2020, 08:16 PM
It would extremely cool to find out what the Jashari's haplogroup is. I've seen rumours that the Jashari's descend paternally from Kuqi and are E-V13.

Kelmendasi
09-10-2020, 08:59 PM
It would extremely cool to find out what the Jashari's haplogroup is. I've seen rumours that the Jashari's descend paternally from Kuqi and are E-V13.
Yes, the Jashari family of Prekaz belong to the Kuši tribe. The Kuši of Drenica can be found in the following villages: Prekaz, Prekaz i EpŰrm, GalicŰ, TŰrnac, MikushnicŰ, Obri e Epёrme and Obri e Poshtme. The villages all claim to stem from the same paternal ancestor, and so do not intermarry. The Kuši of Prekaz, specifically, claim a certain PrekŰ Kuši as their common ancestor. Oral tradition states that Preka also had three brothers: Obri, Luta and Biba. the villages of Obri e Epёrme and Obri e Poshtme claim ancestry from Obri. Whilst Luta is said to have settled in the village of LutogllavŰ near Peja. Biba himself remained in Montenegro, though his son Kola is considered to be the ancestor of the families from TŰrnac and GalicŰ. The brothers are said to have arrived sometime during the end of the 17th or start of the 18th century and were Catholics.

A guy from TŰrnac has tested with the Albanian Y-DNA Project and is E-L241. I believe one from GalicŰ has tested via 23andme and also belonged to that haplogroup. So it's pretty clear that the Jashari, and the rest of the Kuši of Drenica, are in fact E-L241. What's interesting is that this group has yet to be found among the Kuši of Montenegro or Albania.

gjenetiks
09-10-2020, 10:23 PM
Yes, the Jashari family of Prekaz belong to the Kuši tribe. The Kuši of Drenica can be found in the following villages: Prekaz, Prekaz i EpŰrm, GalicŰ, TŰrnac, MikushnicŰ, Obri e Epёrme and Obri e Poshtme. The villages all claim to stem from the same paternal ancestor, and so do not intermarry. The Kuši of Prekaz, specifically, claim a certain PrekŰ Kuši as their common ancestor. Oral tradition states that Preka also had three brothers: Obri, Luta and Biba. the villages of Obri e Epёrme and Obri e Poshtme claim ancestry from Obri. Whilst Luta is said to have settled in the village of LutogllavŰ near Peja. Biba himself remained in Montenegro, though his son Kola is considered to be the ancestor of the families from TŰrnac and GalicŰ. The brothers are said to have arrived sometime during the end of the 17th or start of the 18th century and were Catholics.

A guy from TŰrnac has tested with the Albanian Y-DNA Project and is E-L241. I believe one from GalicŰ has tested via 23andme and also belonged to that haplogroup. So it's pretty clear that the Jashari, and the rest of the Kuši of Drenica, are in fact E-L241. What's interesting is that this group has yet to be found among the Kuši of Montenegro or Albania.

Yeah I thought maybe they're might be a connection with the Kuqi from Montenegro in Koje / Triesh , but guess not. Rare kuqi indeed.

J Man
09-11-2020, 04:31 AM
The village of Progonovići belongs to the wider historical region of Lješanska nahija in eastern Montenegro. I do not think there is any direct connection between this village and the Progoni family, it's just that both the name of this village and the Progoni family are derived from the Albanian anthroponym Progon. This does however indicate that there was an Albanian presence in this area of Montenegro. In fact, there are multiple toponyms in this region that attest to an older Albanian element that was gradually assimilated. For example, these include: Goljemadi, Kruse, Buronji, Ćafa, Šinđon etc. The village of Goljemadi is for sure connected to the historical Albanian tribe GojŰmadhi.

Interestingly though, today most of the brotherhoods of Lješanska nahija belong to haplogroups such as I2a-PH908 which are for sure of Slavic origin. However, this is due to the fact that this region has been heavily settled by families that arrived during the 17th century from areas such as Ozrinići, Nikšić and even Herzegovina. Though there are also some native families that have no tradition of having come from elsewhere, I know that one of those families from the village of Kruse has tested via the Serbian Y-DNA Project as E-Z38456.

Edit: Today Progonovići is made up of three major brotherhoods: Radunovići, Radonjići and Roganovići. The Radunovići are believed to have settled in Progonovići in the year 1660, Radonjići stem from the Bezdanovići of Koman, whilst Roganovići arrived from Cuce but are originally from Medun in Kuči.

Yeah there are definitely old Albanian influences in many parts of Montenegro I think. Personally I think that the Montenegrin tribes were made up of a number of different groups that came together and mixed many centuries ago. They are mainly a mix of Slavic, Vlach and Albanian ancestries I think. There are likely other influences as well but the combination of Slavic, Vlach and Albanian ancestries are in the majority in varying degrees depending on which region in Montenegro a tribe comes from. For example I think that Albanian influences are stronger in the Brda and Crmnica areas while in most of Old Montenegro Vlach influence is likely stronger. The coastal areas probably have even more complex ancestral combinations. All of these influences homogenized though quite a long time ago and became by far majority Slavic speaking.

Kelmendasi
09-11-2020, 10:47 AM
Yeah I thought maybe they're might be a connection with the Kuqi from Montenegro in Koje / Triesh , but guess not. Rare kuqi indeed.
Two guys from Koja e Kušit have tested through the Albanian Y-DNA Project and both turned out to be E-BY165837 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY165837/) which is also typical for the Kuči/Kuši. Though it should be noted that both of these samples come from families that are regarded as being native or local to the area, so the result was to be expected. A large part of Koja e Kušit seems to trace their origin back to Kelmend, around VukŰl particularly. One brotherhood in particular also are believed to have arrived from SelcŰ, though some say they are with further origin from Kastrat. I match one on 23andme, and he is J2b-L283.

As for Trieshi, they were a tribe of their own. Separate from Kuši, although they did maintain pretty good relations with them historically. The main brotherhood of the Trieshi, the Bankeqi, so far seem to primarily be E-BY168279+ (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY168279/) which is just upstream of BY165837. So their cluster and that of the Kuši diverged ~1,350 ybp. They seem to also cluster with some V13 Albanians from the Gruda, as well as one from Tirana who is the sample shown on Yfull. In Triesh there are also brotherhoods such as the Bekaj and Delaj, the Bekaj seem to be mainly R-Z2705>BY38894* and the same seems to be the case for the Delaj. R-BY38894* is also present among the Gruda. Though interestingly one family from the Bekaj ended up testing as J-Y19093 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y19093/).

gjenetiks
09-11-2020, 06:30 PM
Two guys from Koja e Kušit have tested through the Albanian Y-DNA Project and both turned out to be E-BY165837 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY165837/) which is also typical for the Kuči/Kuši. Though it should be noted that both of these samples come from families that are regarded as being native or local to the area, so the result was to be expected. A large part of Koja e Kušit seems to trace their origin back to Kelmend, around VukŰl particularly. One brotherhood in particular also are believed to have arrived from SelcŰ, though some say they are with further origin from Kastrat. I match one on 23andme, and he is J2b-L283.

As for Trieshi, they were a tribe of their own. Separate from Kuši, although they did maintain pretty good relations with them historically. The main brotherhood of the Trieshi, the Bankeqi, so far seem to primarily be E-BY168279+ (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY168279/) which is just upstream of BY165837. So their cluster and that of the Kuši diverged ~1,350 ybp. They seem to also cluster with some V13 Albanians from the Gruda, as well as one from Tirana who is the sample shown on Yfull. In Triesh there are also brotherhoods such as the Bekaj and Delaj, the Bekaj seem to be mainly R-Z2705>BY38894* and the same seems to be the case for the Delaj. R-BY38894* is also present among the Gruda. Though interestingly one family from the Bekaj ended up testing as J-Y19093 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y19093/).

V13 Albanians from Grude tested and got E-BY168279+? I think it would make it clear that some Albos from Grude originally came from Triesh.

Interesting that from oral traditions, large part of Trieshi claim descent from Ban Keqi, brother of Lazer Keqi apparently founder of Hoti Tribe. But Hoti are I believe mostly or solely? J2b-L83. That oral theory's gotta be debunked then, since Bankeqi are E-BY168279+.

gjenetiks
09-11-2020, 06:53 PM
It's interesting that the lulgjuraj in Grude, IIRC have 3 different haplos, V13, r1b, j2b. That lulgjuraj v13 might be triesh, I forgot which subclade they got. I believe I am related to lulgjuraj and frluckaj, though unsure from which side on my fathers side.

It'd be nice to see a list of all the known families from that came from Grude, or Triesh. A lot that's out there is incomplete.

Kelmendasi
09-12-2020, 03:19 PM
V13 Albanians from Grude tested and got E-BY168279+? I think it would make it clear that some Albos from Grude originally came from Triesh.

Interesting that from oral traditions, large part of Trieshi claim descent from Ban Keqi, brother of Lazer Keqi apparently founder of Hoti Tribe. But Hoti are I believe mostly or solely? J2b-L83. That oral theory's gotta be debunked then, since Bankeqi are E-BY168279+.
Yes, he is from the Huskaj branch of the Ivezaj. It's an interesting result as another Ivezaj has also tested, and they are J2b-Y82533 which is more typical for Gruda. It seems that there is some diversity even among families with the same last name which is very surprising.

I can't really say for sure if the E-BY168279 in GrudŰ is directly from Trieshi or vice-versa since none of these families have knowledge of having come from elsewhere, and I am not sure what the TMRCA shared between them is. But, BY168279 does seem to be centered in this area of MalŰsi so there may have been some historical overlap.

The bulk of the Trieshi do indeed claim to descend from a certain Ban Keqi, who was the son of Keqi and the brother of LazŰr Keqi (Hoti), Merkota Keqi (Mrkojevići/MŰrkota), Kaster Keqi (Krasniqi and Nikaj), Vas Keqi (Vasojevići), and Piper Keqi (Piperi). All of the tribes that claim to descend from these six brothers belong to different Y-DNA haplogroups, so it's clear that the claims of common paternal origin are fictional. However, in the defter of the Sanjak of Shkodra of 1485 a settlement called Bankeq does show up in the nahiya of Kuši with 11 households, so a Ban Keqi that was the progenitor of much of the later Trieshi tribe must have actually existed. On top of this, in the nahiya of Hoti, a certain Stanash Keqi is recorded as the head of a settlement called Geg. It is likely that Keqi was a patronym, indicating that a Keqi existed, also the name of this settlement reflects the tradition that the Hoti descend from Geg Lazri, son of LazŰr Keqi.

Kelmendasi
09-12-2020, 03:29 PM
It's interesting that the lulgjuraj in Grude, IIRC have 3 different haplos, V13, r1b, j2b. That lulgjuraj v13 might be triesh, I forgot which subclade they got. I believe I am related to lulgjuraj and frluckaj, though unsure from which side on my fathers side.

It'd be nice to see a list of all the known families from that came from Grude, or Triesh. A lot that's out there is incomplete.
The families or brotherhoods from Gruda and Trieshi are actually listed on the Wikipedia sites for these tribes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruda_(tribe)#Families, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triepshi_(tribe)#Brotherhoods.

Bruzmi
09-13-2020, 12:13 AM
Yes, the Jashari family of Prekaz belong to the Kuši tribe. The Kuši of Drenica can be found in the following villages: Prekaz, Prekaz i EpŰrm, GalicŰ, TŰrnac, MikushnicŰ, Obri e Epёrme and Obri e Poshtme. The villages all claim to stem from the same paternal ancestor, and so do not intermarry. The Kuši of Prekaz, specifically, claim a certain PrekŰ Kuši as their common ancestor. Oral tradition states that Preka also had three brothers: Obri, Luta and Biba. the villages of Obri e Epёrme and Obri e Poshtme claim ancestry from Obri. Whilst Luta is said to have settled in the village of LutogllavŰ near Peja. Biba himself remained in Montenegro, though his son Kola is considered to be the ancestor of the families from TŰrnac and GalicŰ. The brothers are said to have arrived sometime during the end of the 17th or start of the 18th century and were Catholics.

A guy from TŰrnac has tested with the Albanian Y-DNA Project and is E-L241. I believe one from GalicŰ has tested via 23andme and also belonged to that haplogroup. So it's pretty clear that the Jashari, and the rest of the Kuši of Drenica, are in fact E-L241. What's interesting is that this group has yet to be found among the Kuši of Montenegro or Albania.

But it does appear in KukŰs. I think that here we have a case of adopted farefisni. Basically, a family or a cluster of families gets adopted into a larger fis. The fis i vogŰl adopts the name of the other fis and also an orphan son of the smaller fis gets adopted by a family of the larger fis which has no sons. So, the Jashari are not Kuši, otherwise they would belong to the same E-V13 cluster as Kuši. They're probably a local fis of central Kosovo.

TuaMan
09-14-2020, 08:09 PM
What do the results of Kosovo Serbs look like (assuming we even have significant sample sizes to go off)? Are they more related to Montenegrins, other Serbs, or Albanians?

trdbr1234
09-15-2020, 12:48 AM
What do the results of Kosovo Serbs look like (assuming we even have significant sample sizes to go off)? Are they more related to Montenegrins, other Serbs, or Albanians?

I am also very curious about this.

However this debate might be politically charged. Without a proper peer-reviewed study, I wouldn't trust results so much.

gjenetiks
09-15-2020, 02:01 AM
I am also very curious about this.

However this debate might be politically charged. Without a proper peer-reviewed study, I wouldn't trust results so much.

I think there are some Kosovo Serbs who are Serbianized Albo's, though I don't think all of them are like this. A lot of Kosovo Serbs came originally from Montenegro.

Kelmendasi
09-15-2020, 10:53 AM
What do the results of Kosovo Serbs look like (assuming we even have significant sample sizes to go off)? Are they more related to Montenegrins, other Serbs, or Albanians?
It has been stated on another thread (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17899-Medieval-Albanian-Placenames-Settlements-in-Kosovo-amp-Serbia-13-15th-Century) that around 380 Kosovo Serbs have been tested through the Serbian Y-DNA Project, but the full results haven't been made public yet. And based on these results, the most dominant Y-DNA haplogroup was I2a-Y3120 at ~32%, however it was followed by E-V13 at ~23.16%. This percentage of V13 is more similar to that of the Albanians.

From what Pribislav mentioned, most of the V13 can be broken down into these clusters: E-Z13591 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z13591/) (Bjelopavlići cluster), E-Y37092 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y37092*/) (Vasojevići cluster), E-BY5423 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5423/), E-Z38456 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z38456/), E-L241 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/), and E-FGC11450 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11450/). It is clear that the first two clusters are not local or native, but rather arrived more recently with migrants from Montenegro (Bjelopavlić and Vasojević specifically). E-Z38456, E-L241, and E-FGC11450 are all major V13 clusters present among Albanians, and it wouldn't surprise me if a number of these Serbs closely match those Albanians. On the other hand, E-BY5423 has yet to found among Albanians.

Hawk
09-15-2020, 07:10 PM
Yeah, it looks like during Late Bronze Age Balkans started to get dominated by E-V13. I have no doubt Dardanians and Illyrians from Albania/Montenegro will be predominantly E-V13 as well.

gjenetiks
09-15-2020, 09:10 PM
It's interesting how I get a Northern Italian, West shifted resulted on my K36 LM Genetics Ancestral report. It's the same typical plot as most Albanians just shifted to North Italy. Is this common for other Albo's? I think a lot of what people think could be slavic admix, might just be a natural west shift in albanians, as slavic dna's not getting picked up in many tests. I also score 0.6% Italian on my 23andme.

Hawk
09-16-2020, 06:51 AM
It's interesting how I get a Northern Italian, West shifted resulted on my K36 LM Genetics Ancestral report. It's the same typical plot as most Albanians just shifted to North Italy. Is this common for other Albo's? I think a lot of what people think could be slavic admix, might just be a natural west shift in albanians, as slavic dna's not getting picked up in many tests. I also score 0.6% Italian on my 23andme.

Illyrians were far more Italian shifted than Albanians, so Albanians being shifted to North Italy makes sense. But, we also have Slavic admixture. It's undeniable.

Aspar
09-16-2020, 07:59 AM
On the other hand, E-BY5423 has yet to found among Albanians.

Well obviously that one it's of Eastern or Central Balkan origin so Thracian and not Illyrian. It's obvious by its upstream cousins found in Armenia(Phrygians and Thracians) and Chuvashes(Scythians). While on the other hand, typically Albanian lineages have upstream cousins in Italy as it's the case with R-Z2705 which points to their Western Balkan and Illyrian origin.
Also for E-BY5423 I can see by YFULLs tree that there isn't much diversity in the Serbo-Croat areas and all descend from a man living around 800 ybp. While there is a Macedonian from Skopje forming a parallel branch to the Serbo-Croat one with TMRCA of 850 ybp, there is a Bulgarian from Haskovo, the Bulgarian part of Thracia, that forms a parallel branch of E-BY5423 with TMRCA between them of around 2200 ybp.
So the diversity is clearly in the Bulgaro-Macedonian areas. If the samples of Kosovo are also positive for the Serbo-Croat branch downstream of E-BY5423 then there is nothing to argue here but these would clearly be descendants of a migrant to the Western Balkans that probably came from Macedonia. Whether it was a migration of Eastern Romance speakers or Bulgarian speakers, the fact remains that the patterns show that E-BY5423 is clearly of Eastern-Central Balkan origin and not Illyrian one.

J Man
09-16-2020, 03:50 PM
Some other sources I have read actually state that the mother of Marko Miljanov was also from Kuči/Kuši, but belonged to the Milić brotherhood of Orahovo. The Milići belong to the Old Kuči (Staro Kuči or Mrnjavčići), unlike the Popovići whom belong to the Drekalovići. Though I do know that some, such as Robert Elsie, have claimed that his mother was a Catholic Albanian.

Is the Drekalovići E-V13 clade closely elated to the E-V13 clades among any Albanians?

gjenetiks
09-16-2020, 06:37 PM
Illyrians were far more Italian shifted than Albanians, so Albanians being shifted to North Italy makes sense. But, we also have Slavic admixture. It's undeniable.

Yeah albos do have slavic, I think I look more slavic than most albanians and probably have more than most. Though 23andme seems to be bad for showing you slavic autosomal percentages, and this is with taking raw data and uploading it to third party sites. I don't rate 23andme highly. The best autosomal tests are probably FTDNA and Ancestry. What they did with v5 changed algorithm for the worse for GEDmatch.

Kelmendasi
09-17-2020, 01:23 AM
Is the Drekalovići E-V13 clade closely elated to the E-V13 clades among any Albanians?
Both the Drekalovići and Old Kuči are primarily E-BY165837 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY165837/), which is a downstream of BY168279 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY168279/) and has a TMRCA of ~550 ybp. As can be seen on the Yfull tree, E-BY168279 has a TMRCA of ~1,350 ybp and is represented by an Albanian from Tirana who, I believe, forms another cluster with Albanians from the Trieshi tribe (Bankeqi) and a part of the Gruda. So the Kuči cluster and the Albanian one diverged from a common ancestor sometime around the Early Middle Ages. Should also note that there are in fact Albanians from the Kuši tribe or Koja that are BY165837+.

What's clear is that Y-DNA testing and historical sources attest to the fact that the bulk of the Kuši/Kuči are of Albanian paternal origin, and that due to different factors there was a shift towards the Slavic language and Orthodox faith. Though this change did happen rather early on and isn't much of a recent change from what I have gathered.

J Man
09-17-2020, 04:42 AM
Both the Drekalovići and Old Kuči are primarily E-BY165837 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY165837/), which is a downstream of BY168279 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY168279/) and has a TMRCA of ~550 ybp. As can be seen on the Yfull tree, E-BY168279 has a TMRCA of ~1,350 ybp and is represented by an Albanian from Tirana who, I believe, forms another cluster with Albanians from the Trieshi tribe (Bankeqi) and a part of the Gruda. So the Kuči cluster and the Albanian one diverged from a common ancestor sometime around the Early Middle Ages. Should also note that there are in fact Albanians from the Kuši tribe or Koja that are BY165837+.

What's clear is that Y-DNA testing and historical sources attest to the fact that the bulk of the Kuši/Kuči are of Albanian paternal origin, and that due to different factors there was a shift towards the Slavic language and Orthodox faith. Though this change did happen rather early on and isn't much of a recent change from what I have gathered.

Ahhh ok thank you...It is nice to see genetics backing up the tradition that they are originally of Albanian origins. You mentioned that the Drekalovići are "primarily" E- BY165837+...Are some of them not E-BY165837+ as well then?

Kelmendasi
09-17-2020, 11:46 AM
Ahhh ok thank you...It is nice to see genetics backing up the tradition that they are originally of Albanian origins. You mentioned that the Drekalovići are "primarily" E- BY165837+...Are some of them not E-BY165837+ as well then?
Well there are some families from around Sandžak that claim to be from the Drekalovići but belong to different Y-DNA haplogroups. For example, the Agići from Biševo claim to have arrived from Medun and that they are descended from the Ilikovići branch of Drekalović but, are in fact R-Z2705>BY38894 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/) and not E-BY165837. This is just a case where a smaller family was accepted or adopted into a larger tribe, and ended up identifying as a part of that tribe despite being of different paternal origins.

Hawk
09-17-2020, 12:40 PM
Bulgarians/Macedonians should be cautious to be taken as examples, they are very mixed and confusing population, their Slavic ancestors initially mixed with natives of Pannonia probably acquiring some E-V13 and then in Thrace acquring some other E-V13 subclades.

gjenetiks
09-17-2020, 04:45 PM
Albanian politician Dritan Abazovic is a big player in Montenegrin politics right now. Apparently the origin of his family could be that Abazovic's came from the village of Pecurice in Mrkojevici. These Abazovic some say descend from a person named Marko who converted to Islam. Both the Abazovic and Barjamovic in Pecurice descend supposedly from Marko. Marko is a name I think more prevalent among Serbs than Albanians but common in both. But Marko's brother's name was Ivo a name common among Serbs, Croats.

This could indicate that Dritan Abazovic could actually be an Albanized Serb. Mrkojevici sort of like Crmnica, was a place with Albanian influence and some slavic-albanian mingling, so this could as a result of this.

I do think however that Dritan's mother is Albanian. It could also be that he doesn't descend from the Abazovic/Abazi in Mrkojevici but a native Abazovic/Abazi in Ulqin.


EDIT: This is all fake news, he has origins from Kruje, Albania and is NOT from Mrkojevici

broder
09-17-2020, 05:18 PM
Dritan spoke of his origin in a tv show and said that his ancestors came to Ulqin from Kruje.

gjenetiks
09-17-2020, 05:21 PM
Dritan spoke of his origin in a tv show and said that his ancestors came to Ulqin from Kruje.

Yes he said this on Euronews Albania, I believe he said there was a fshat in Kruje called Abazaj and that he is an Abazi. I think he was trying to make some sort of connection based off of this, but that's not usually how it works. He did however say if I recall correctly, that the people of the village say that he is related to them. So it's something.

Kelmendasi
09-17-2020, 09:26 PM
Yes he said this on Euronews Albania, I believe he said there was a fshat in Kruje called Abazaj and that he is an Abazi. I think he was trying to make some sort of connection based off of this, but that's not usually how it works. He did however say if I recall correctly, that the people of the village say that he is related to them. So it's something.
There are a couple of families from Ulqin that do actually claim to have come from KrujŰ and the surrounding villages. Personally, I am not entirely convinced of the connection between his family and the Abazovići from Pečurice in Mrkojević. As far as I am aware, his family doesn't claim relation with them.

gjenetiks
09-17-2020, 09:55 PM
There are a couple of families from Ulqin that do actually claim to have come from KrujŰ and the surrounding villages. Personally, I am not entirely convinced of the connection between his family and the Abazovići from Pečurice in Mrkojević. As far as I am aware, his family doesn't claim relation with them.

I think he said that his father was a businessman in Ulqin? There is a guy named Vebija Abazovic from Pecurice who sells olive oil there. https://oliveoilmontenegro.me/portfolio-item/vebijaabazovic/ http://uljaraabazovic.com

Edit: What I wrote is fake news, this is NOT his father

broder
09-17-2020, 10:10 PM
Guy above is not his dad

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10157229469988513&id=612018512

He posted a video of his dad signing jare shkodrane, Xho Abazi.

gjenetiks
09-17-2020, 10:13 PM
Guy above is not his dad

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10157229469988513&id=612018512

He posted a video of his dad signing jare shkodrane, Xho Abazi.

Ok, thanks for the clear up. Then he most likely has origins from Kruje. Here is the part of that EuronewsAlbania interview timestamped where he talks about his origins from Kruje. Min 28:30 https://youtu.be/7wyMnTetetc?t=1710


https://youtu.be/7wyMnTetetc?t=1710

Bruzmi
09-17-2020, 10:34 PM
Ulqin is a city with a long history. Its demographics can't be analyzed like we would analyze those of a fis or a region composed of several fis. The fis mode of social organizaion has a stability and continuity through time. A city is a chaotic system in terms of genealogical research. Its only stable element is that of the "old burger families" and this genealogical instability is constantly reproduced by the urban form of organization itself.

gjenetiks
09-17-2020, 10:56 PM
Ulqin is a city with a long history. Its demographics can't be analyzed like we would analyze those of a fis or a region composed of several fis. The fis mode of social organizaion has a stability and continuity through time. A city is a chaotic system in terms of genealogical research. Its only stable element is that of the "old burger families" and this genealogical instability is constantly reproduced by the urban form of organization itself.

Yeah Ulqin is certainly tougher to analyze. Btw, do you have any more info on Kraja and families there? I remember you posted something about how Kraja has minimal matrineal slavic lineage. There isn't much information on Kraja or Shestani, Shestani I feel more so, since there is a Malesor link there.

Hawk
09-18-2020, 07:03 AM
What about Albin Kurti, do we know what fis does he belong?

gjenetiks
09-18-2020, 03:10 PM
What about Albin Kurti, do we know what fis does he belong?

I believe he's from the village of Sukubin, in Ana Malit, Ulqin. As far as his fis is concerned, I don't know which fis he hails from.

gjenetiks
09-21-2020, 05:01 PM
Is it true that Selman Kadria shares blood/blood ties with Serbs? According to historian Liman Rushiti he was a nip of a Krstic (Kerrst) in Istog. https://www.botasot.info/lajme/390426/a-ishte-selman-kadria-nip-i-serbeve-debat-i-nxehte-video/

This video explains things more clearly.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhCMOAHVYck