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newtoboard
02-09-2014, 03:16 PM
Is thre any support for the Bulgars coming from the Pamir/Hindu Kush region? I presume this is some sort of internet myth that stems from a desire to not associate Bulgars with more eastern language families like Altaic and Uralic and is some sort of desire to be associated with Scythians instead of Turks. There doesn't seem to be any significant frequencies of typical South -Central Asian lineages in the SE Balkans such as Z93, R2 or L (the only common lineages between the SE Balkans are G, J and E which all likely have a Neolithic or pre-Neolithic spread).

Jean M
02-09-2014, 04:06 PM
The Bulgars appear to have emerged from the Huns. The Chuvash, descendants of the Volga Bulgars, speak the only surviving Oghur branch of Turkic. However, the Bulgars who spread into what is now Bulgaria were a military elite, who subjugated the Slavs who had already arrived there and submerged the Thracians, who in their turn had replaced earlier farmers. So picture layer upon layer of history, some leaving more evidence than others in the present gene-pool of Bulgaria.

Predominant today are Slavic Y-DNA signatures R1a-M458 and I2a1b3a (L147), and haplogroups E1b-V13, J2-M241 and R1b1ba2a (L23), perhaps representing the Thracians. Haplogroups C, N and Q, distinctive for central Asian Turkic-speakers, occur in only 1.5% of Bulgarians.

Silesian
02-09-2014, 09:49 PM
You can see the path the R1b Scythians took in this diagram. The R1b Scythians stretched from Pashtuns to Eastern Europe.

http://celticowboy.com/scythians_map.jpg

This also explains the R1b and ANE in this area, for example the R1b found in Ossetians, and R1b in Bulgars, which of course is connected to R1b in Iranians.

newtoboard
02-09-2014, 09:57 PM
You can see the path the R1b Scythians took in this diagram. The R1b Scythians stretched from Pashtuns to Eastern Europe.

http://celticowboy.com/scythians_map.jpg

This also explains the R1b and ANE in this area, for example the R1b found in Ossetians, and R1b in Bulgars, which of course is connected to R1b in Iranians.

Does repeating this lie over and over make it true? I think not.

Silesian
02-09-2014, 10:13 PM
Does repeating this lie over and over make it true? I think not.
Well the Ossetians have R1b, so do the Iranians, as well as Pashtuns.Remember the Grugni et al study, not much R1b in the Turkmen region of Iran, more R1a actually.

newtoboard
02-09-2014, 10:24 PM
Well the Ossetians have R1b, so do the Iranians, as well as Pashtuns.Remember the Grugni et al study, not much R1b in the Turkmen region of Iran, more R1a actually.

Yea they also have R1a (Iranians and Kurds). The frequency of R1b among Pashtuns is what? A pathetic 1%? That's cool that Turkmen have lots of R1a. They are after all the ones who lived closest to Scythians. Cool story though.

Why is it that nobody associates R1b with Scythians but you? Is the rest of the world wrong or could it be your idea have zero merit?

newtoboard
02-09-2014, 10:26 PM
But thanks for ruining this thread with OT stuff. Why don't you post your theory in another thread and add a poll so we can see if anybody is buying what you keep on repeating over and over?

Silesian
02-09-2014, 10:35 PM
Yea they also have R1a (Iranians and Kurds). The frequency of R1b among Pashtuns is what? A pathetic 1%? That's cool that Turkmen have lots of R1a. They are after all the ones who lived closest to Scythians. Cool story though.

Why is it that nobody associates R1b with Scythians but you? Is the rest of the world wrong or could it be your idea have zero merit?
It's about quality, not quantity. Maybe not even 1% of ydna C is found in the area of the last discovery in Spain. R1b L23 is found in Bulgars, Urals, and Pashtuns. These areas have ANE, have a look at this scientific study, pretty neat.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/extref/nature12736-s1.pdf [page 55]

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2013/03/y-chromosomes-of-bulgarians-karachanak.html

newtoboard
02-09-2014, 10:45 PM
It's about quality, not quantity. Maybe not even 1% of ydna C is found in the area of the last discovery in Spain. R1b L23 is found in Bulgars, Urals, and Pashtuns. These areas have ANE, have a look at this scientific study, pretty neat.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/extref/nature12736-s1.pdf [page 55]

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2013/03/y-chromosomes-of-bulgarians-karachanak.html

So a lineage that doesn't represent even 1% of the Pashtun gene pool is responsible for what will likely be a significant amount of ANE even though this ANE can be explained by R1a and R2 whose frequency in Pashtuns is close to 60%. But in your expert opinions R1b groups brought ANE to South Central Asia even though R1a-Z93 groups in the Bronze Age were likely more ANE than any European R1a or any R1b group ever was and is.

Silesian
02-09-2014, 10:50 PM
So a lineage that doesn't represent even 1% of the Pashtun gene pool is responsible for what will likely be a significant amount of ANE even though this ANE can be explained by R1a and R2 whose frequency in Pashtuns is close to 60%. But in your expert opinions R1b groups brought ANE to South Central Asia even though R1a-Z93 groups in the Bronze Age were likely more ANE than any European R1a or any R1b group ever was and is.

Yeah, wiki shows R1b-L23 in Iran Kurds and Kazakhstan and Bulgarians, I figure that is the same one with ANE, maybe close to extinct R's like Mal'ta.


The only population yet recorded with a definite significant proportion of R1b* are the Kurds of southeastern Kazakhstan with 13%.[7] However, more recently, a large study of Y-chromosome variation in Iran, revealed R1b* as high as 4.3% among Persian sub-populations.[18]

DMXX
02-11-2014, 07:07 PM
But thanks for ruining this thread with OT stuff. Why don't you post your theory in another thread and add a poll so we can see if anybody is buying what you keep on repeating over and over?

This is an appropriate suggestion.

I haven't seen any suggestion in academic studies which make the case (or even present evidence) supporting the spread of R1b-L23 around the Caucasus, Iranian plateau and South-Central Asia with any Indo-European group. I did once speculate something similar as Silesian, but presented it as a possibility rather than a certainty. Silesian's point on "quality, not quantity" is somewhat justified here with regard to the Pashtuns - A lot of their lineages have clear evidence of genetic drift going on (especially Y-DNA R1a). Who is to say what the picture was like 2kya?

This is all very much beside the point. Silesian, if you do decide on it, I'd look forward to reading a definitive version of your thoughts on the matter of Scythians (or whomever else is being discussed) with R1b-L23 in a dedicated thread, rather than the same messages being repeated on different threads here.

newtoboard
02-11-2014, 07:29 PM
This is an appropriate suggestion.

I haven't seen any suggestion in academic studies which make the case (or even present evidence) supporting the spread of R1b-L23 around the Caucasus, Iranian plateau and South-Central Asia with any Indo-European group. I did once speculate something similar as Silesian, but presented it as a possibility rather than a certainty. Silesian's point on "quality, not quantity" is somewhat justified here with regard to the Pashtuns - A lot of their lineages have clear evidence of genetic drift going on (especially Y-DNA R1a). Who is to say what the picture was like 2kya?

This is all very much beside the point. Silesian, if you do decide on it, I'd look forward to reading a definitive version of your thoughts on the matter of Scythians (or whomever else is being discussed) with R1b-L23 in a dedicated thread, rather than the same messages being repeated on different threads here.

Just about everybody associates L23 with the spread of Armenian.

They might have inflated amounts of R1a and G2c but nothing suggests that R1b has been more disproportionally reduced than something like G2a, R2 or J2. There isn't much R1b around them. Except in Hazaras and Tajiks whose R1b frequencies can be explained by them speaking a language with significant Altaic influence and a West Iranian language respectively. What would support them having had more R1b around 2-3kya? I assume the lands Pashtuns live in would have been occupied by the Gandhara Grave and SWAT cultures around then. If we associate these with the SE Iranian speaking ancestors of Pashtuns then why would cultures with significant Andronovo influence not have significant amounts of R1a? If instead we associate these cultures with Indo-Aryan and/or Dardic and Nuristani speakers then these cultures also likely were high in R1a and low in R1b (given Indo-Aryan speakers have frequencies of R1b less than 1%) and that would mean Pashtuns are derived from Central Asian Scythian or Saka population who migrated South so that would once again suggest high amounts of R1a in their founding population. Which might suggest high amounts of R1a is a result of their founding group having R1a frequencies approaching steppe values rather than recent genetic drift.

In order for high amounts of R1b to have been present at a high frequency South-Central Asia 2-3kya ago that would mean R1b would have to have been associated with Andronovo or the Neolithic cultures of South Central Asia. I don't see support for either.

DMXX
02-11-2014, 07:38 PM
Let's put it this way; ancient DNA hasn't been too kind to every supposition, be them reasonable and in-line with modern archaeology (as your post above is), or unreasonable and biased for whatever reason.

Perhaps we'll find something in South-Central Asia dating back to 2-3kya that shatters these popular theories to the core. As the Y-DNA C, blue-eyed, dark haired, dark-skinned hunter-gatherer did for Europe.

Alanson
02-11-2014, 08:28 PM
The original Bulgars were Oghur Turkics who differed from the Oghuz and Kipchaks. The Oghur language that managed to survive is the Chuvash, the rest either got eaten away by other Turkic or Uralic languages. I have seen the theory of Iranic origins, but I am not convinced of it. I also had some people link the Balkars to the Bulgars, but they are two completely different people, with different history. The Balkars are Kipchak Turkic speaking, and their name means people of the Mountains, well the Bulgar term means "to mix". They might have had Iranic affinities but they were largely similar to modern day Chuvash linguistically and perhaps even genetically.

newtoboard
02-11-2014, 08:29 PM
Let's put it this way; ancient DNA hasn't been too kind to every supposition, be them reasonable and in-line with modern archaeology (as your post above is), or unreasonable and biased for whatever reason.

Perhaps we'll find something in South-Central Asia dating back to 2-3kya that shatters these popular theories to the core. As the Y-DNA C, blue-eyed, dark haired, dark-skinned hunter-gatherer did for Europe.

Well it might be earth shattering based on presence not frequency. Nothing indicates that Y-DNA C was a common Paleolithic or Mesolithic European lineage (of which I and R1a are more likely). It could have been minor back then as it is today. So maybe we will find some ancient R1b in South-Central Asia (which I suspect will be M343*, P25* or M269* than L23 anyways) but I don't think anything will end up showing high frequencies. The European C wasn't that Earth shattering given how old C is though.

Humanist
02-11-2014, 09:15 PM
Just about everybody associates L23 with the spread of Armenian.

A spread associated with Armenian to all modern populations with significant frequencies would not explain why we speak a language definitively distinct from Armenian, with a possible Akkadian substratum, and with extremely few words of Armenian origin in our lexicon.

newtoboard
02-11-2014, 09:30 PM
A spread associated with Armenian to all modern populations with significant frequencies would not explain why we speak a language definitively distinct from Armenian, with a possible Akkadian substratum, and with extremely few words of Armenian origin in our lexicon.

I personally agree. I think L23 in West Asia has more to do with the Caucasus and non IE speaking Kura-Araxes and Maykop populations than the Balkans. I was just pointing out some(most?) people do connect L23 to the spread of IE languages in one of the regions DMXX mentioned (Caucasus, Iran and South-Central Asia).

Silesian
02-12-2014, 07:18 AM
This is an appropriate suggestion.

I haven't seen any suggestion in academic studies which make the case (or even present evidence) supporting the spread of R1b-L23 around the Caucasus, Iranian plateau and South-Central Asia with any Indo-European group. I did once speculate something similar as Silesian, but presented it as a possibility rather than a certainty. Silesian's point on "quality, not quantity" is somewhat justified here with regard to the Pashtuns - A lot of their lineages have clear evidence of genetic drift going on (especially Y-DNA R1a). Who is to say what the picture was like 2kya?

This is all very much beside the point. Silesian, if you do decide on it, I'd look forward to reading a definitive version of your thoughts on the matter of Scythians (or whomever else is being discussed) with R1b-L23 in a dedicated thread, rather than the same messages being repeated on different threads here.

This was the original thread starter. A general myth statement with no scientific study.

Is thre any support for the Bulgars coming from the Pamir/Hindu Kush region? I presume this is some sort of internet myth that stems from a desire to not associate Bulgars with more eastern language families like Altaic and Uralic and is some sort of desire to be associated with Scythians instead of Turks. There doesn't seem to be any significant frequencies of typical South -Central Asian lineages in the SE Balkans such as Z93, R2 or L (the only common lineages between the SE Balkans are G, J and E which all likely have a Neolithic or pre-Neolithic spread).

This is a scientiific study on Bulgarians, including R1a-M458 R1a-M198 and

R1b-M73 R1b-M269* R1b-L23*
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056779

This is Pamir/Hindu Kush region.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Location_map_Pamir_mhn.svg

]R1b-M73 R1b-M269* R1b-L23 can be found in the region adjacent to Pamir/Hindu Kush.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0076748

In fact in the above scientific study this combination cluster can be found in Mongolia.


Higher frequency of L23 and M269 can be found in Iran amongst Iranians not Turkmen.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_mypYjUAwqw/UAjZdNrHAqI/AAAAAAAAAMY/nxbhHviubow/s1600/study4.png

R1a is higher in frequency than R1b: amongst Turkmen-Jawzjan
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0076748

R1a is also higher in frequency than R1b: amongst Turkmen in Golestan.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_mypYjUAwqw/UAjZdNrHAqI/AAAAAAAAAMY/nxbhHviubow/s1600/study4.png

newtoboard
02-12-2014, 12:55 PM
Having L23+ in South-Central Asia and L23+ in Bulgaria doesn't have to mean anything so I have no idea what the frequency of R1a among Turkmen or frequency of R1b among Iranians has to do with anything other than further pushing your idea of Turkic R1a and Scythian R1b. It is very unlikely L23+ could travel from the Pamir region while leaving behind other South-Central Asian lineages and not picking up other lineages on the journey. Since Bulgaria is located in the territory of the former Thracian states there is no reason to look for an exotic origin of L23+ in Bulgarians when most people associate the Balkan group of IE languages with L23+. Therefore, it really has no place in this discussion other than to drag this thread off topic into your usual speeches about R1b Scythians. Like DMXX suggested if you want to start a thread on R1b Scythians go ahead but I am getting tired of you constantly dragging my threads off topic to do so.

newtoboard
02-12-2014, 01:49 PM
To avoid these arguments over and over I will gladly make the thread for you Silesian. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and will try to maintain an open mind with regards to your theories.

Jean M
02-12-2014, 03:53 PM
And the thread is here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2175-Did-Scythians-carry-and-spread-R1b

Silesian
02-12-2014, 05:33 PM
Its not only the R1b or ANE look at my signature, its also ccddee found in the region of of LP gene around Hindu Kush and Pamir I suspect it is the same one as carried by Northern and Western Europeans. Im not sure about Bulgars. However the area around Sindh and Bannu might have the highest levels of AB ccdde

newtoboard
02-12-2014, 05:37 PM
Its not only the R1b or ANE look at my signature, its also ccddee found in the region of of LP gene around Hindu Kush and Pamir I suspect it is the same one as carried by Northern and Western Europeans. Im not sure about Bulgars. They might have the highest levels of AB ccddee

LP in South and Central Asia doesn't show any correlation with R1b or R1a last time I looked into the matter. 13910T doesn't peak where R1a or R1b peak.

Silesian
02-12-2014, 05:45 PM
LP in South and Central Asia doesn't show any correlation with R1b or R1a last time I looked into the matter. 13910T doesn't peak where R1a or R1b peak.
parasar posted LP 13910T while back around Bannu and Sndh, I cant remember the thread. Are you sure there is no Balkan Bannu Sindh connection.

Sein
02-12-2014, 06:05 PM
For all posters, a reminder to keep the discussion civil (and rational). No need to personalize things. Any further off-handed remarks, or posts involving overly abrasive language, will be deleted without hesitation.

Silesian
02-12-2014, 06:26 PM
For all posters, a reminder to keep the discussion civil (and rational). No need to personalize things. Any further off-handed remarks, or posts involving overly abrasive language, will be deleted without hesitation.
I did not realize you are R1a Pashtun. Perhaps you can shed some light on R1b in Pashtun Pakistan, around Hindu Kush.

Bostan Khan Tanoli (c. 1880)
Marker Location: Mansehra, Pakistan

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/India/default.aspx?section=ymap R1b

Ral
02-12-2014, 06:57 PM
Haplogroup R1a is from 10 to 90% in various Turkic populations.
And if it is from the Iranians, the Chuvash (alleged descendants of the Bulgars) with 30% R1a are not immediately clear leaders. Kirghizians are more iranians (50-60% of R1a), Altaians (50-60% of R1a), etc. Moreover, the Chuvash subclade is not z93. (is not Iranian). Then we have to recognize that all turks are descended from the Iranians, not just the bulgars.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Turkic

Humanist
02-12-2014, 07:06 PM
R1b has 0 correlation with sedentary farmers, but has major correlation with pastoralist cultures. Not sure how you're associating traditional sedentary farmers with R1b. Might as well throw the Sumerians in there at this rate.

Many of my ancestors were sedentary farmers. And, the below bit by Cambridge's Geoffrey Khan does not establish anything, but I do not believe in completely excluding a possibility when there are no aDNA Y-DNA results from a given part of the world.


[A] number of lexical items in the NENA [including Sureth] dialects, especially those relating to agriculture, can be traced back beyond Classical Aramaic to Akkadian or even Sumerian.

Silesian
02-12-2014, 07:15 PM
Haplogroup R1a is from 10 to 90% in various Turkic populations.
And if it is from the Iranians, the Chuvash (alleged descendants of the Bulgars) with 30% R1a are not immediately clear leaders. Kirghizians are more iranians (50-60% of R1a), Altaians (50-60% of R1a), etc. Moreover, the Chuvash subclade is not z93. (is not Iranian). Then we have to recognize that all turks are descended from the Iranians, not just the bulgars.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Pontic_steppe_region_around_650_AD.png

Perhaps you can explain the following groups.
Are the Bulgars R1a 93 or 94
Are the Turkmen R1a 93 or 94
Are the Iranians R1a 93 or 94
Are samples found around Hindu Kush R1a 93 or 94

Sein
02-12-2014, 07:16 PM
I did not realize you are R1a Pashtun. Perhaps you can shed some light on R1b in Pashtun Pakistan, around Hindu Kush.

Bostan Khan Tanoli (c. 1880)
Marker Location: Mansehra, Pakistan

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/India/default.aspx?section=ymap R1b

I'm rather behind on the haplogroup literature, so my knowledge is somewhat limited, if not outdated. But it was my general impression that R1b is a very rare lineage in South-Central Asia. Nevertheless, it does exist. And for some reason, it seems more common among Pakistani Pashtuns, in comparison to Afghan Pashtuns. Interestingly, two out of the 23 HGDP Pashtun samples (HGDP00214, HGDP00234) are R1b. So it's there. And as DMXX stated, who knows how things may have stood in the past. But taking our cue from the present, R1b is at very low frequencies in the general region.

Silesian
02-12-2014, 07:26 PM
I'm rather behind on the haplogroup literature, so my knowledge is somewhat limited, if not outdated. But it was my general impression that R1b is a very rare lineage in South-Central Asia. Nevertheless, it does exist. And for some reason, it seems more common among Pakistani Pashtuns, in comparison to Afghan Pashtuns. Interestingly, two out of the 23 HGDP Pashtun samples (HGDP00214, HGDP00234) are R1b. So it's there. And as DMXX stated, who knows how things may have stood in the past. But taking the present as our cue, R1b is at very low frequencies in the general region.

Thanks Sein,I had a chance to talk to a couple of Afghans if I remember they said the areas had gone through quite the upheaval with Mongols, and that some Pashtuns in Pakistan are actually from Northern Afghanistan. Is there any truth to that.

Ral
02-12-2014, 07:28 PM
Perhaps you can explain the following groups.
Are the Bulgars R1a 93 or 94
Are the Turkmen R1a 93 or 94
Are the Iranians R1a 93 or 94
Are samples found around Hindu Kush R1a 93 or 94
Do not you know really?

Sein
02-12-2014, 09:42 PM
Thanks Sein,I had a chance to talk to a couple of Afghans if I remember they said the areas had gone through quite the upheaval with Mongols, and that some Pashtuns in Pakistan are actually from Northern Afghanistan. Is there any truth to that.

No problem.

Before the creation of the Durand Line, there was some population movement on an east-west axis. The Pashtun tribes around the Peshawar Valley are originally from Ghazni. Some tribes in Loya Paktia are from farther east. But no real movement from contemporary northern Afghanistan to northwestern Pakistan, as Pashtuns aren't indigenous to Northern Afghanistan. It has always been a Tajik+Turkic region.

parasar
02-13-2014, 05:35 AM
Many of my ancestors were sedentary farmers. And, the below bit by Cambridge's Geoffrey Khan does not establish anything, but I do not believe in completely excluding a possibility when there are no aDNA Y-DNA results from a given part of the world.

If any haplogroup is present in large numbers today, for R, say R-M458, R-L657, it is because these lineages were nurtured by "sedentary" farmers.