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Marko47
09-12-2020, 01:22 AM
Hello everyone,

I was wondering if someone could help me try to figure out my paternal grandfather's very obscure and unknown background. My father has 2 Pontic Greek parents, his mother being from the Eastern part of Pontus in Giresun with family in the Caucasus as well, and his father being from just outside of Istanbul in a village called Yenikoy Sile. My paternal great grandfather is said to have come to Yenikoy Sile from Eastern Thrace, but we know next to nothing about him and his family. They had a very distinct family look, either blonde or copper colored hair, and fairly light skin for Greeks. I know that Yenikoy was full of many different Balkan groups like Bulgarians and Serbs, but in terms of autosomal dna results and matches, there seem to be an incredibly diverse group of somewhat close matches from Baltic countries and Northeastern European countries, as well as several Jewish surnames. (Sephardic/Ashkenazi) Towards the end of the list, we have Scottish/British/American matches as well. I received my Big Y 700 results recently and found that I am in R-U152--Z36-- R-FT330613. Most people tend to be Italian, Swiss, or from the British Isles in this subclade. I have read that in Greece/Anatolia this could be attributed possibly to the Galatians who invaded Greece and Thrace, settling eventually in Central Anatolia, or to the Romans in the area of Pontus. I myself believe it is the former. According to the SNP tracker (not sure if this is reliable) my terminal SNP is located near central Anatolia close to Kayseri at about 970 CE. I am wondering if it makes sense to suspect that my paternal line was Galatian, became Hellenized and were absorbed into another Greek community like the Cappadocian Greeks? Recently ancestry.com did an update to my father's atdna kit and whereas before, from his father he was 36% Greek and 14% Italian, today his profile has shifted to more "Turkey and the Caucasus" "Balkan" and a few percentage points of "Greek" (4%) Cyprus (3%) and France (2%) There are extremely few known matches from Yenikoy on our match list and I have noticed that a few of them also have the Cypriot and French numbers. We have no knowledge of a Cypriot background but I have read that Cappadocians (Greeks among them) were moved to Cyprus by the Seljuks (I think) in the 16th century. And as for the French, it probably is unrelated, but the Galatian Tectosages were thought to have originated from near Toulouse, which is almost exactly where the particular French category is located. In general, certain tools like the Eurogenes 36K similarity map put most of the hotspots--after removing my grandmother's percentage--around the islands off the coast of Western Turkey. My father's kit is on gedmatch, but besides a basic understanding of admixture tools and oracle, I'm not entirely sure I know what I am looking at. I'm wondering if someone can take a look and tell me what they see. Again, 1 set of grandparents were from Giresun and the other from Yenikoy Sile. Thanks for any help whatsoever. I appreciate it!

Johnny ola
09-12-2020, 10:05 AM
Can you link your father's gedmatch kit plss!!!

Marko47
09-12-2020, 12:31 PM
Can you link your father's gedmatch kit plss!!!

Yes, of course. Thanks.

MK

Johnny ola
09-12-2020, 12:55 PM
Yes, of course. Thanks.

MK4639436

I think you have some Turkic/Siberian like admixture in your autosomal profile.I cant say for sure if its coming from your Constantinoupoli side or the Pontic Greek part.It would be better to buy G25 coordinates to have a better look thought.

Marko47
09-12-2020, 01:58 PM
Very interesting. I know that Bashkirs sometimes have R-U152, but of course I have no knowledge of this type of connection. What I do know is that my xiliote paternal people had a serious affiliation with Russia. People from the village in Greece who were familiar with my family talked about them all going to Russia. I assume that they meant into the Soviet Union and Bloc after the civil war. My grandfather's nickname during the war was "Volgas," and we never knew the exact reason or story behind it. My grandmother's maternal grandfather could have been from near Odessa and had the surname "Emirza." I have often thought he could have been an Urum or Crimean Tatar. Not sure if Siberia is a part of that profile. I do have a kit for my grandmother's brother from the Giresun side however. I saw a thread recently that you may have been a part of too about Levantine/Jewish connection to Pontic Greeks. Someone mentioned the Kohenim. We have a few Kohenim matches on ftdna, one in particular that is fairly close. The kit for my Giresun family is KV7346230

Marko47
09-12-2020, 02:08 PM
Also, I am unfamiliar with G25 coordinates. Is this a Tier 1 tool?

I am wondering which of the admixture tools are the ones to look at for Pontic Greek profiles?

Thanks again for your assistance.

Johnny ola
09-12-2020, 02:15 PM
Very interesting. I know that Bashkirs sometimes have R-U152, but of course I have no knowledge of this type of connection. What I do know is that my xiliote paternal people had a serious affiliation with Russia. People from the village in Greece who were familiar with my family talked about them all going to Russia. I assume that they meant into the Soviet Union and Bloc after the civil war. My grandfather's nickname during the war was "Volgas," and we never knew the exact reason or story behind it. My grandmother's maternal grandfather could have been from near Odessa and had the surname "Emirza." I have often thought he could have been an Urum or Crimean Tatar. Not sure if Siberia is a part of that profile. I do have a kit for my grandmother's brother from the Giresun side however. I saw a thread recently that you may have been a part of too about Levantine/Jewish connection to Pontic Greeks. Someone mentioned the Kohenim. We have a few Kohenim matches on ftdna, one in particular that is fairly close. The kit for my Giresun family is KV7346230

Ok now i seeing it Ty In advance!!!

Johnny ola
09-12-2020, 02:16 PM
Also, I am unfamiliar with G25 coordinates. Is this a Tier 1 tool?

I am wondering which of the admixture tools are the ones to look at for Pontic Greek profiles?

Thanks again for your assistance.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/getting-most-out-of-global25_12.html?m=1

xripkan
09-12-2020, 02:21 PM
Hello everyone,

I was wondering if someone could help me try to figure out my paternal grandfather's very obscure and unknown background. My father has 2 Pontic Greek parents, his mother being from the Eastern part of Pontus in Giresun with family in the Caucasus as well, and his father being from just outside of Istanbul in a village called Yenikoy Sile. My paternal great grandfather is said to have come to Yenikoy Sile from Eastern Thrace, but we know next to nothing about him and his family. They had a very distinct family look, either blonde or copper colored hair, and fairly light skin for Greeks. I know that Yenikoy was full of many different Balkan groups like Bulgarians and Serbs, but in terms of autosomal dna results and matches, there seem to be an incredibly diverse group of somewhat close matches from Baltic countries and Northeastern European countries, as well as several Jewish surnames. (Sephardic/Ashkenazi) Towards the end of the list, we have Scottish/British/American matches as well. I received my Big Y 700 results recently and found that I am in R-U152--Z36-- R-FT330613. Most people tend to be Italian, Swiss, or from the British Isles in this subclade. I have read that in Greece/Anatolia this could be attributed possibly to the Galatians who invaded Greece and Thrace, settling eventually in Central Anatolia, or to the Romans in the area of Pontus. I myself believe it is the former. According to the SNP tracker (not sure if this is reliable) my terminal SNP is located near central Anatolia close to Kayseri at about 970 CE. I am wondering if it makes sense to suspect that my paternal line was Galatian, became Hellenized and were absorbed into another Greek community like the Cappadocian Greeks? Recently ancestry.com did an update to my father's atdna kit and whereas before, from his father he was 36% Greek and 14% Italian, today his profile has shifted to more "Turkey and the Caucasus" "Balkan" and a few percentage points of "Greek" (4%) Cyprus (3%) and France (2%) There are extremely few known matches from Yenikoy on our match list and I have noticed that a few of them also have the Cypriot and French numbers. We have no knowledge of a Cypriot background but I have read that Cappadocians (Greeks among them) were moved to Cyprus by the Seljuks (I think) in the 16th century. And as for the French, it probably is unrelated, but the Galatian Tectosages were thought to have originated from near Toulouse, which is almost exactly where the particular French category is located. In general, certain tools like the Eurogenes 36K similarity map put most of the hotspots--after removing my grandmother's percentage--around the islands off the coast of Western Turkey. My father's kit is on gedmatch, but besides a basic understanding of admixture tools and oracle, I'm not entirely sure I know what I am looking at. I'm wondering if someone can take a look and tell me what they see. Again, 1 set of grandparents were from Giresun and the other from Yenikoy Sile. Thanks for any help whatsoever. I appreciate it!

Interesting results! Based on his genetic results and his known ancestry your father seems mostly Caucasian from his maternal side and a mix of Central-Western Anatolian and South Balkans from fis paternal side. Your maternal family seems to have some Levantine and maybe Central Anatolian/Cappadocian input as well.

Johnny ola
09-12-2020, 02:27 PM
Υes as i expected.Your grandma's kit has nothing east asian/siberian or Turkish but it has a decent levantine shift,that we seen it in many Pontic Greek gedmatches/samples.Probably Jewish connection.But overall her results are native of the region of mixed anatolian and caucasian DNA.I think your father's siberian/east asian admixture is coming from the Istanbul/Costantinoupoli part.You can found out more if you buy G25 coordinates.You will have a clearly view thought.About your Ydna i think it has a connection with Galatians but again this is more related with your father's origins and not with Pontic Greeks.Galatians never reached those lands at all!!!!

xripkan
09-12-2020, 02:39 PM
Υes as i expected.Your grandma's kit has nothing east asian/siberian or Turkish but it has a decent levantine shift,that we seen it in many Pontic Greek gedmatches/samples.Probably Jewish connection.But overall her results are native of the region of mixed anatolian and caucasian DNA.I think your father's siberian/east asian admixture is coming from the Istanbul/Costantinoupoli part.You can found out more if you buy G25 coordinates.You will have a clearly view thought.About your Ydna i think it has a connection with Galatians but again this is more related with your father's origins and not with Pontic Greeks.Galatians never reached those lands at all!!!!

I agree with most of what you mention but I have doubts about the Turkic ancestry. I didn't find such an ancestry running his father's kit. In which calculators did you find it?

dosas
09-12-2020, 02:43 PM
From what I understood from your post, you most distant known male ancestor is from the Marmara region, next to Istanbul? Your title seems a bit of misnomer, what did your paternal family side self-identify as and what language did they use primarily for intra-family communication?

The term "Pontic Greek" usually refers to Hellenic speaking populations eastwards of Samsun and in Crimea.

Johnny ola
09-12-2020, 02:50 PM
I agree with most of what you mention but I have doubts about the Turkic ancestry. I didn't find such an ancestry running his father's kit. In which calculators did you find it?
I didn' t see such an ancestry running his father's kit.

In most calucators coming closer to azov greeks,tatars and turkish refrences.I am not sure if he indeed has some turkish/siberian admixture that it would be more visible in G25 but for some reason he gives me the idea that he has a connection with western turkey and balkan turks hence why he scores such refrences on gedmatch.

xripkan
09-12-2020, 03:02 PM
In most calucators coming closer to azov greeks,tatars and turkish refrences.I am not sure if he indeed has some turkish/siberian admixture that it would be more visible in G25 but for some reason he gives me the idea that he has a connection with western turkey and balkan turks hence why he scores such refrences on gedmatch.

He scores no Siberian and East Asian in Dodecad K12b and almost 0 at Eurogenes K13. He also scores 0 at Gedrosia Eurasia. His proximity to Azov Greeks, Crimean Tatars and Turks as well exists -in my opinion- due to the combination of Caucasusian+Central Anatolian+Balkanic admixture he has.

Johnny ola
09-12-2020, 03:05 PM
He scores no Siberian and East Asian in Dodecad K12b and almost 0 at Eurogenes K13. He also scores 0 at Gedrosia Eurasia. His proximity to Azov Greeks, Crimean Tatars and Turks as well exists -in my opinion- due to the combination of Caucasusian+Central Anatolian+Balkanic admixture he has.

It might be this case, thought his results would be more visible in G25.

dosas
09-12-2020, 03:07 PM
Johny is correct, the Giresun kit seems close to the Pontic average, in the way that K23b models it as 50% Trabzon + 50% Assyrian/Armenian, and K13 has it as 91.1% Armenian + 8.9% Lebanese_Druze at a distance of 5% which makes perfect sense for a calculator with no Pontic Greek reference.

His father's kit's MDLP results seem close to mine, which makes me think that his father is probably a mix of a Balkan/Bulgarian-like population + Caucasus (another Pontic Greek). I also get the Greek Azov/Crimea Tatar oracle because the Crimean Greeks can be modelled as Slavic shifted Pontic Greeks, so I don't think there's necessarily Turkic genetics in his results.

So, if I read and understood his post correctly then he should research his clade in Thrace/East Balkans.

Marko47
09-12-2020, 04:19 PM
About your Ydna i think it has a connection with Galatians but again this is more related with your father's origins and not with Pontic Greeks.Galatians never reached those lands at all!!!![/QUOTE]

This is the thing that still confuses me to be honest. The Greeks of Yenikoy Sile, Gallipoli, Eastern Thrace, what is their origin? Is this known? I have heard the term "Western Pontians" for these folks. Are they from the Greek mainland or the Western Coast of Turkey, and so are they not considered "Pontic Greeks"? I don't think it is entirely known what became of the Galatians after--possibly--the 5th century AD. But they were thought to have Hellenized and later Romanized. As for some other ideas for possible ethnicity of my paternal people, what about the Gagauz? The story of my great grandfather is that he was a shepherd from Romylia and I wonder if we could have Vlach/Bulgarian/Macedonia people in our ancestry as we have a few Romanian/Bulgarian/Macedonian matches. (what matches don't we have really?) I have spoken with someone in an ftdna study group who talked about a possible Karaite/Krymchak connection based on my autosomal matches, and the region of Moldova/Crimea seem a good fit for location. Not sure if this helps at all, but we have a fairly high match whose ancestors were fully from Yenikoy Sile and this person mentioned to me that they have an mtdna haplogroup of I5a1. My father is a match of both parents of this individual. We do not have any sources of mtdna in my family that would be from my father's paternal family. It's interesting to see that this rare haplogroup is found, if I remember correctly, in Iberia, Germany, and the British Isles. I came upon an Eastern Thracian kit with all 4 grandparents being from Eastern Thrace and they also seemed to have a connection to Northwestern Europe and a few Irish American type matches. I'm not sure that my paternal family is so exceptional to the region surrounding Constantinople.

Marko47
09-12-2020, 04:31 PM
[QUOTE=dosas;699907]From what I understood from your post, you most distant known male ancestor is from the Marmara region, next to Istanbul? Your title seems a bit of misnomer, what did your paternal family side self-identify as and what language did they use primarily for intra-family communication?

I'm sorry for the confusion. I know that Pontic Greeks are usually from the Eastern areas of Anatolia, but I'm not sure how to characterize Western Greeks who also technically live near Pontus. And as for my family's communication, self identity: It is difficult to say. We had absolutely no contact with my paternal family after they were dispersed across the Soviet Union and Bloc. We were always told they were Greeks and I assume they spoke Greek. Recently I learned that our current surname, which comes up on wiktionary as an example of Romaniote surnames, was not our original surname and that my great grandfather in Romylia had a name ending in --dis. I know that this does not always mean Pontic Greek, but that is all that we know. What they identified as is a mystery to us. But I will tell you that I have current family members that speak of a very distinctive look for people with our surname. I do not know many of them, but I can see pictures of them on social media. Including my father and our known relatives, I would honestly say that a Central Asian element is not entirely out of the question. The Turkic/Siberian suggestion isn't entirely crazy in my opinion.

Marko47
09-12-2020, 05:01 PM
[QUOTE=dosas;699907]From what I understood from your post, you most distant known male ancestor is from the Marmara region, next to Istanbul?

Basically my father's earliest known paternal ancestor was from just outside of Istanbul in Şile. (Yenikoy) But this is where he lived before the Exchange of Populations. He was said to have originally been from Eastern Thrace. The thing I have heard recently from someone more knowledgeable about the area, is that it was common for Greeks in Yenikoy Sile to in earlier centuries (18th I think) to migrate to Eastern Thrace. So there is a possibility that the origin is in fact Şile after all. They were shepherds and this other source of information I am related to as a match, tells me that part of his people were shepherds too. Could they be Vlachs? The region they relocated to--near Edessa in Northern Greece--has a high concentration of Vlachs as well. Again, I do not know these people well at all, so I couldn't telly you if they were speakers of a Latin dialect or any other language. They identified 100% as Greeks and we were never told of any other affiliation. But as I mentioned in my first post, by all accounts, Yenikoy Sile was a Greek village with a Balkan population as well. Serbs and Bulgarians specifically, I have heard were very much a part of the community.

Marko47
09-13-2020, 12:58 PM
Johnny, I have my G25 results.

43.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
25.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
13.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
2.8 WHG
2.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

dosas
09-13-2020, 01:17 PM
Johnny, I have my G25 results.

43.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
25.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
13.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
2.8 WHG
2.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Post your co-ordinates here so we can model them, or send them via PM (but most people just post them in the threads, it's common practice).

Johnny ola
09-13-2020, 02:11 PM
Johnny, I have my G25 results.

43.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
25.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
13.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
2.8 WHG
2.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Who's results are these? Your fathers or Your grandma's?

Marko47
09-13-2020, 02:53 PM
My father's results.

Marko_scaled,0.113823,0.144205,-0.026021,-0.03876,-0.005539,-0.011435,0.00376,-0.003923,-0.034155,0.002369,0.004384,0.000899,-0.005798,0.000688,-0.010586,0.002784,0.009518,0.001014,0.001131,-0.004877,0.00549,0.008779,-0.002342,-0.008073,0.007424

Marko,0.01,0.0142,-0.0069,-0.012,-0.0018,-0.0041,0.0016,-0.0017,-0.0167,0.0013,0.0027,0.0006,-0.0039,0.0005,-0.0078,0.0021,0.0073,0.0008,0.0009,-0.0039,0.0044,0.0071,-0.0019,-0.0067,0.0062

Johnny ola
09-13-2020, 03:11 PM
My father's results.

Marko_scaled,0.113823,0.144205,-0.026021,-0.03876,-0.005539,-0.011435,0.00376,-0.003923,-0.034155,0.002369,0.004384,0.000899,-0.005798,0.000688,-0.010586,0.002784,0.009518,0.001014,0.001131,-0.004877,0.00549,0.008779,-0.002342,-0.008073,0.007424

Marko,0.01,0.0142,-0.0069,-0.012,-0.0018,-0.0041,0.0016,-0.0017,-0.0167,0.0013,0.0027,0.0006,-0.0039,0.0005,-0.0078,0.0021,0.0073,0.0008,0.0009,-0.0039,0.0044,0.0071,-0.0019,-0.0067,0.0062

Your father has a decent steppe admixture as it seems. People from Costantinoupoli are not that far away from Thracian Greeks I would say. They have balkanic/Slavic steppe. The rest of his admixture seems BA Anatolian and Caucasus thought.

dosas
09-13-2020, 05:07 PM
My father's results.



Genoplot OptimalFit oracles (unscaled):


https://i.ibb.co/VQtvT6T/screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1600015709258.png
https://i.ibb.co/L0P6TRZ/screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1600015721239.png
https://i.ibb.co/42nvJSN/screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1600015736115.png
https://i.ibb.co/pwHhdR9/screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1600015750750.png


Neolithic OptimalFit run with usual groups (all Yamnaya populations picked minus BGR, scaled):

Sample:dosas1312 ► markos AG
Fit:2.6192
Results:Barcin N51.6
Yamnaya RUS Caucasus21
Ganj Dareh N14
GEO CHG13.4


He is plotting close to me, which is a nice change, it was getting lonely in there :beerchug:.


https://i.ibb.co/C7f9zxB/screencapture-genoplot-com-pca-1600016402343.png

Markos
09-13-2020, 05:20 PM
The Turkic/Siberian suggestion isn't entirely crazy in my opinion.

Based on your father's results, there is both a 0% chance and zero evidence to suggest any Turkic genes whatsoever.

Johnny ola
09-13-2020, 05:21 PM
[QUOTE=dosas;700115]Genoplot OptimalFit oracles (unscaled):

snip



I am pretty sure many Greeks with ancestry from Costantinoupoli/Thrace etc and Pontus will plot like this!!!

Marko47
09-13-2020, 05:37 PM
It's good to be here for sure. But I have a question about something. It seems like the closest Greek plots to me are Cretan and Kos Greeks. Does this say anything about a possible Greek islander origin? Bear with me, because I do not fully comprehend what I am seeing here.

Greekscholar
09-13-2020, 05:43 PM
Genoplot OptimalFit oracles (unscaled):


https://i.ibb.co/VQtvT6T/screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1600015709258.png
https://i.ibb.co/L0P6TRZ/screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1600015721239.png
https://i.ibb.co/42nvJSN/screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1600015736115.png
https://i.ibb.co/pwHhdR9/screencapture-genoplot-com-g25-1600015750750.png


Neolithic OptimalFit run with usual groups (all Yamnaya populations picked minus BGR, scaled):

Sample:dosas1312 ► markos AG
Fit:2.6192
Results:Barcin N51.6
Yamnaya RUS Caucasus21
Ganj Dareh N14
GEO CHG13.4


He is plotting close to me, which is a nice change, it was getting lonely in there :beerchug:.


https://i.ibb.co/C7f9zxB/screencapture-genoplot-com-pca-1600016402343.png

Thanks for this. I just found the thread and was going to post something similar when I discovered Imgur doesn't seem to be providing direct links anymore. But yes, he plots close to you on the cline between Pontic and Macedonian Greek profiles.

dosas
09-13-2020, 05:43 PM
It's good to be here for sure. But I have a question about something. It seems like the closest Greek plots to me are Cretan and Kos Greeks. Does this say anything about a possible Greek islander origin? Bear with me, because I do not fully comprehend what I am seeing here.

It's the meeting point in the middle between your parent's genetics. It's because Greek Islanders can also be modelled as a two way mix between the Greek mainlanders and the Anatolian Greeks.

I also get Crete as first pop and then South Italy, with no link there whatsoever. For mixed people, it's better to look at the mixed pop. oracles, but the single pop. can also give an idea of where you can find similar admixtures to yours.

Edit: I mean your father's, doh.

xripkan
09-13-2020, 05:47 PM
It's good to be here for sure. But I have a question about something. It seems like the closest Greek plots to me are Cretan and Kos Greeks. Does this say anything about a possible Greek islander origin? Bear with me, because I do not fully comprehend what I am seeing here.

No, it is just genetic similarity. Your father's ancestry background brings him close to Greek islanders but it doesn't mean he has an ancestry from them.

Greekscholar
09-13-2020, 06:45 PM
On G25, your dad's closest match is Central Anatolian Greeks. G25 also seems to like to assign you this ancestry in "all modern averages" models for what it is worth. I'm not sure why to be honest.

Distance to: Marko_scaled
0.03471033 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04163483 Greek_Kos
0.04364577 Greek_Crete
0.04639633 Turkish_Trabzon
0.04956426 Greek_Trabzon
0.05118193 Armenian
0.05143039 Greek_Izmir
0.05453353 Italian_Basilicata
0.05511949 Turkish_East
0.05521116 Italian_Campania
0.05548606 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.05580252 Italian_Calabria
0.05620865 Georgian_Jew
0.05632432 Italian_Apulia
0.05662235 Italian_Molise
0.05664414 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.05692455 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.05792507 Turkish_Istanbul
0.05798820 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05831358 Georgian_Laz
0.05837718 Italian_Abruzzo
0.05840637 Greek_Peloponnese
0.05893553 Cypriot
0.05918134 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.05928061 Ashkenazi_Russia

Target: Marko_scaled
Distance: 2.2893% / 0.02289263 | ADC: 0.5x
76.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
13.4 Gagauz
8.2 Darginian
1.8 Georgian_Laz

Target: Marko_scaled
Distance: 1.8363% / 0.01836251 | ADC: 0.25x
51.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
31.2 Armenian_Hemsheni
13.4 Sorb_Niederlausitz
2.0 Italian_Lazio
1.6 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.8 Darginian

Target: Marko_scaled
Distance: 1.7282% / 0.01728204
50.8 Armenian_Hemsheni
25.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
14.4 Sorb_Niederlausitz
7.6 Spanish_La_Rioja
1.2 Sardinian
1.0 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya

Johnny ola
09-13-2020, 06:57 PM
Marko you are half Greek and half Polish? Could you share your results?

Marko47
09-13-2020, 07:04 PM
This is great guys! Thanks for working me on this. The last thing Greekscholar posted with the recurring Greek_Central_Anatolia values, does this have any correlation with the coordinates of my terminal SNP (R-FT330613) on the SNP Tracker's map? It is like I mentioned in my first point, right around Central Anatolia around 970 AD. I know that the tracker is to be viewed with caution, but I'm curious about this.

http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html?fbclid=IwAR3vtkNPKgXD_WoFhzd2FIQNb B5IyobhiIskqcnJ-MMfeS3nnbIB3fkjMfU

(I tried to post a screenshot of the map but it's not working. You will see what I mean by going to the link and inputting R-FT330613)

dosas
09-13-2020, 07:56 PM
That map is the result of the info you entered in FTDNA rather than the other way around. It produces a kind of a result based on the info it gets from the FTDNA projects, 970 AD is the TMRCA with your matches?

Edit: I found you on the Big-Y tree, there's seems to be just you there with no other match, correct? You need to start working on your rule of 3 and hope for the best for a match.

Rule of 3: Father + son + confirmed distant male cousin from the same paternal lineage so a most recent clade can be formed.

Markos
09-13-2020, 09:49 PM
Seeing my name all over this thread is messing with me :lol:

eolien
09-13-2020, 10:30 PM
Hello everyone,

I was wondering if someone could help me try to figure out my paternal grandfather's very obscure and unknown background. My father has 2 Pontic Greek parents, his mother being from the Eastern part of Pontus in Giresun with family in the Caucasus as well, and his father being from just outside of Istanbul in a village called Yenikoy Sile. My paternal great grandfather is said to have come to Yenikoy Sile from Eastern Thrace, but we know next to nothing about him and his family.

I checked some available turkish sources in the web. The most accepted hypothesis on the origin of Greeks in Yenikoy/Neohorion is that they moved from Taskopru district in Gebze after Orlov revolt (1770). Apparently they had a different Greek accent from that of Sile greeks and the village was well known as the center of greek gangs in this hilly region in 1919-1922.

Marko47
09-14-2020, 12:51 AM
They told me that there is a match but that it hasn't been made public. An administrator told me that the person could have been part of a study. I was at R-BY32364 a few weeks ago and it was located near Belgium. The other person was from England. Not quite sure how it works but I'm not sure that they just plot you in the place you tell them. I have my earliest known ancestor in Eastern Thrace.

Marko47
09-14-2020, 01:21 AM
Eolien, I have read that article that was poorly translated into English from Turkish. I thought it got taken down because it did not have more than one source or something like that? I have heard about the rebels there from primary sources and additionally that the village suffered tremendously from reprisals during the genocide, because of their activities. They were described in that article as "armed at all times" and having a different dialect than Sile Greeks. I believe it, because the next generation was the one that fought in the Greek resistance and were active in the Civil War. It's why, to answer your question Johnny, I am half-Polish. Gebze is not too far away, but I have a feeling that they were from further East in Anatolia originally. This would make even more sense to me if my paternal line is in fact from the Galatians. It's curious to say the least.

dosas
09-14-2020, 05:30 AM
From personal experience, I wouldn't put much stock in that scaledinnovation mapping, better to start contacting your matches, especially if the TMRCA is recent, otherwise I already wrote about the 'rule of 3'.

That scaled innovation map doesn't make any sense, for example, it pinpoints my clade in Ukraine for 'modern times'; there's only two of us in the clade, one is me with Haskovo in Bulgaria as the birthplace of the most distant known ancestor and the other match is an ethnic Chechen from Chechnya with a TMRCA of 3500 ybp, how does Ukraine fit in all of this, other than some sort of meeting point average, but for modern times? Come on ...

https://i.ibb.co/44W5B3T/screencapture-scaledinnovation-com-gg-snp-Tracker-html-1600061257186.png

eolien
09-14-2020, 07:47 AM
Eolien, I have read that article that was poorly translated into English from Turkish. I thought it got taken down because it did not have more than one source or something like that? I have heard about the rebels there from primary sources and additionally that the village suffered tremendously from reprisals during the genocide, because of their activities. They were described in that article as "armed at all times" and having a different dialect than Sile Greeks. I believe it, because the next generation was the one that fought in the Greek resistance and were active in the Civil War. It's why, to answer your question Johnny, I am half-Polish. Gebze is not too far away, but I have a feeling that they were from further East in Anatolia originally. This would make even more sense to me if my paternal line is in fact from the Galatians. It's curious to say the least.

there are many articles about that not just one but coming from pontus and settling there does not make sense to me. The second theory i have seen is that they were recent immigrant in Taskopru coming from Pelopones (again due to Orlov). Their different accent and a bit wild nature could be just that. I read in article (http://ozhanozturk.com/2017/12/16/sile-tarihi-artane-artane-hilea-psillisten-sileye/) that the refugees from there settled in Pireus, Evgenia neighbourhood https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%95%CF%85%CE%B3%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%B1_( %CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AF%CE%B1)

eolien
09-14-2020, 07:51 AM
Eolien, I have read that article that was poorly translated into English from Turkish. I thought it got taken down because it did not have more than one source or something like that? I have heard about the rebels there from primary sources and additionally that the village suffered tremendously from reprisals during the genocide, because of their activities. They were described in that article as "armed at all times" and having a different dialect than Sile Greeks. I believe it, because the next generation was the one that fought in the Greek resistance and were active in the Civil War. It's why, to answer your question Johnny, I am half-Polish. Gebze is not too far away, but I have a feeling that they were from further East in Anatolia originally. This would make even more sense to me if my paternal line is in fact from the Galatians. It's curious to say the least.

The greeks from Yenikoy were apparently quite active! in 1919-1922 period. At the end some albanians connected to the nationalists together with the locals from Gebze villages attacked the village and you can imagine the rest. But the gang leaders managed to escape. Apparently they were deported in 1915 to Eskisehir and other places and came back to in 1919. I also found this: https://neoxori-xili.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_5925.html. It says there that Yenikoy refugees moved to in NAOUSA IMATHIA.

Edit: I added from that Greek page, the relevant passage on Orlov:
"Τά χωριά αυτά, καθαρώς γεωργικά και Ιδία κτηνοτροφικά, εiχαν κτισθή περί τά τέλη τοΰ δεκάτου ογδόου αίώνος άπό πρόσφυγας τής Κωμοπόλεως Τάς-Κιοπροϋ (Πέτρινη Γέφυρα) τής Βιθυνίας, κοντά στην Νικομήδεια, πού έφυγαν για νά σωθοϋν άπό τούς διωγμούς κατά τό έτος 1770 κατά τήν έπανάστασι τοϋ Όρλώφ."

Marko47
09-14-2020, 08:04 PM
It says there that Yenikoy refugees moved to in NAOUSA IMATHIA.

Yessir! One of the only relatives of my grandfather's family that I have ever visited, lived in Naousa. Yenikoy refugees also went to Voreino as well, where my grandfather's family fled. Nicomedia/Eskihecir, now we are talking about Galatian country. This makes more sense you're right. BTW another thing I have heard from a primary source, people who have visited the cemeteries there, say that in 1800 it was considered a Georgian village. Georgian people lived there apparently.

Ayetooey
09-15-2020, 12:12 AM
If your paternal line is from the East Thracian region, perhaps your Y dna came with the "Frankokratia".

Marko47
09-15-2020, 04:07 AM
Perhaps a possibility.

Onur Dincer
09-15-2020, 09:05 AM
I do not see any East Eurasian/Turkic shift in the GEDmatch results of the kits the OP shared. His father is basically like a mainland Greek-eastern Pontic Greek mix and his Giresun side is like an eastern Pontic Greek genetically, all in accordance with their known backgrounds. Nothing unusual there.

As for his Y-DNA, R1b-U152 is not so unusual for the Balkans (his known patrilineal ancestry is from the Balkans), it is clearly found in higher percentage in the Balkans than in Anatolia, which is probably to do with the much higher concentration of Celts in the Balkans than in Anatolia historically, the long existence of Italian colonists in the Balkans from the Roman colonies in ancient times well into the Italian city state colonies in late medieval times, and also the Frankokratia Ayetooey mentioned.

Onur Dincer
09-15-2020, 09:15 AM
The G25 results of the father show that his mainland Greek side is steppe-rich, so some recent Thracian ancestry makes sense.

Marko47
09-16-2020, 02:00 AM
Onur, thank you for this analysis. I'm not sure if you had read about the history of the village my father's paternal grandparents lived in, but I had a thought recently. The village of Yenikoy was apparently a Georgian village, before the Greeks arrived arrived after the Orlov Revolt. I have a fairly close atdna match for my father whose both parents were from Yenikoy. One of his parent's mtdna result was linked to Georgia and the Caucasus, and this person has a few autosomal matches from the Caucasus as well. Supposedly the greeks that arrived after Orlov were mainland Greeks, Cretans, and a few other places. I'm wondering if my G25 results are showing some ancestry from the Caucasus (maybe Georgian) with people like Darginians, Laz, Mountain Jews in the results? Would that explain the Central_Anatolian_Greek? Does this make sense at all what I'm saying?

Onur Dincer
09-16-2020, 03:04 AM
Onur, thank you for this analysis. I'm not sure if you had read about the history of the village my father's paternal grandparents lived in, but I had a thought recently. The village of Yenikoy was apparently a Georgian village, before the Greeks arrived arrived after the Orlov Revolt. I have a fairly close atdna match for my father whose both parents were from Yenikoy. One of his parent's mtdna result was linked to Georgia and the Caucasus, and this person has a few autosomal matches from the Caucasus as well. Supposedly the greeks that arrived after Orlov were mainland Greeks, Cretans, and a few other places. I'm wondering if my G25 results are showing some ancestry from the Caucasus (maybe Georgian) with people like Darginians, Laz, Mountain Jews in the results? Would that explain the Central_Anatolian_Greek? Does this make sense at all what I'm saying?

You are welcome Marko. If you mean that your father is 1/4 Georgian, 1/4 mainland Greek and 1/2 eastern Pontic Greek, that is not what I am observing in your father's genetic results. Like I said, your father's results seem compatible with someone with half mainland and half eastern Pontic Greek ancestry, your Y-DNA also points to Europe rather than the Caucasus. Maybe your father's Greek match from Yenikoy has some Georgian mix but matches your father through his Greek side, have you considered that possibility? The distances of the Georgian matches to that match are also important, if they are distant, then there is even more room for speculation.

Marko47
09-16-2020, 03:19 AM
(his known patrilineal ancestry is from the Balkans)

This is the part that is up for debate. There is simply a story in the family that my great grandfather was a shepherd who came to Yenikoy as an adult from Eastern Thrace. Whether this is true or where exactly these people originated, is completely unknown. But a person who has more knowledge within their family of Yenikoy Sile Greeks, said to me that it was common for people in Yenikoy to go to Eastern Thrace during a certain period of time. (I would think especially shepherd or Vlach type people, who could be nomadic.) So there is also the possibility that they originated in Yenikoy to begin with and got there from the Greek mainland or Crete. I know that especially the Northern Balkans had a lot of Celtic tribes, especially around the Danube. Thrace too. It's tough to say. But I'm curious with you also being in R-U152 from Nigde, whether you think you have this from the Romans or Galatians, or some other source? (If I'm not mistaken I think it's 0.6% in Turkey as opposed to 4% in Greece.)

Marko47
09-16-2020, 03:59 AM
Gotcha. I was definitely not thinking the paternal side, or the Ydna coming from the Caucasus, but more along the lines of my father's maternal grandmother being partially Georgian. Let's say my father's paternal grandfather was fully Greek, and his paternal grandmother was mostly Greek with a Georgian ancestor from before the arrival of the Greeks. My father's paternal grandmother was from Yenikoy from birth and it's feasible to think that a part of this family, was there when it was a Georgian village. Let's say that both of my father's paternal grandparents were mostly Greek, but that there could have been Georgian and Balkan communities within Yenikoy from earlier times, that figure into their total ethnicity. The people who I have figured out on a few sites like ancestry, ftdna, and other sites who for sure were from Yenikoy (there aren't many) tend to be between 1/3-2/3 % Greek. For example on ancestry, before their recent update, a lot of these people had heavy amounts of Eastern European percentages and almost always 0% Turkey and the Caucasus. Today, after the update, those same people now have Balkan and a few including my father and I, have an uptick in "Turkey and the Caucasus." Since you are saying there is no evidence of us being at all Turkish, I think at least on ancestry, they are now attributing Caucasian dna to my father's paternal grandparents. Pontic Greeks almost always come up at near 100% in categories like West Asian or Turkey and the Caucasus. So that is why I had the thought of some Georgian ancestry in our Yenikoy ancestors. But just a trace. It was just a thought I had.

Onur Dincer
09-16-2020, 11:29 AM
Yes, it is still possible your father might have some Georgian genetic input on his paternal side, however it should be in a very diluted form if there is such genetic input. Not saying it is necessarily in noise levels. It could explain the preference of Georgians instead of Armenians in the four population Oracle results of your father for instance.

As for me, yes, I am from the very rare (less than 1%) individuals with R-U152 among people with Anatolian patrilineal ancestry. I and my close paternal relatives from the same R-U152 line have taken Big Y-700 and Y-111 tests, joined YFull, Full Genomes and the R-P312 Big Tree, joined many R1b FTDNA projects and exchanged lots of emails with the admins of those projects and finally found out that our specific R-U152 line was still in Western Europe during the early centuries of the 1st millennium BC at the earliest based on ancient and modern DNA results and detailed Y-SNP- and Y-STR-based calculations. This means it came to Anatolia probably with the Galatian Celtic or Roman migrations at the earliest, the central Anatolian origins of my father makes me lean more towards the former possibility given the history of Celtic colonization in central Anatolia.

Marko47
09-16-2020, 05:46 PM
That's very interesting. I need to get in touch with the administrator of the Z36 portion of the R-U152 study. I don't want to spend too much time looking at my dad's autosomal results from ancestry or ftdna, but I do wonder about a few things. Since your Celtic roots are far in the past, the Galatians being part of the Celtic invasion of Greece and Thrace at about 279 BC, is it fair to assume that this type of background would not show up in an atdna test's ethnicity results? Do you get any type of results that are related to Italo-Celts for example? I would think not. But if it would be a more recent source like Frankokratia or Republic of Venice etc, wouldn't that be more likely to appear in an atdna ethnicity estimate? I don't know if this type of thinking is flawed. It makes sense at the surface level. Before the update at ancestry, my father was 14% Italian. Now it looks like those percentages were reinterpreted as 3% Cyprus, 2% France, 4% Balkan, and some Caucasian DNA as well. Does this French and Cypriot estimate suggest at all a more recent source of R-U152? And then the thing about the Orlov Revolt is that there were mainland Greeks and other groups like the Cretans. A thought that I have is if the Yenikoy Greeks were from diverse parts of Greece, could there be a chance that among all of the Greek ancestors of my paternal grandparents, there could have been a Cretan? Could this explain the Cypriot value and some of the values on G25 like Greek_Cretan and Greek_Kos? Again, I'm not saying they were primarily Cretans or islanders. Could be mostly mainland Greeks. What are your thoughts on these ideas?

Onur Dincer
09-16-2020, 09:55 PM
That's very interesting. I need to get in touch with the administrator of the Z36 portion of the R-U152 study. I don't want to spend too much time looking at my dad's autosomal results from ancestry or ftdna, but I do wonder about a few things. Since your Celtic roots are far in the past, the Galatians being part of the Celtic invasion of Greece and Thrace at about 279 BC, is it fair to assume that this type of background would not show up in an atdna test's ethnicity results? Do you get any type of results that are related to Italo-Celts for example? I would think not. But if it would be a more recent source like Frankokratia or Republic of Venice etc, wouldn't that be more likely to appear in an atdna ethnicity estimate? I don't know if this type of thinking is flawed. It makes sense at the surface level. Before the update at ancestry, my father was 14% Italian. Now it looks like those percentages were reinterpreted as 3% Cyprus, 2% France, 4% Balkan, and some Caucasian DNA as well. Does this French and Cypriot estimate suggest at all a more recent source of R-U152? And then the thing about the Orlov Revolt is that there were mainland Greeks and other groups like the Cretans. A thought that I have is if the Yenikoy Greeks were from diverse parts of Greece, could there be a chance that among all of the Greek ancestors of my paternal grandparents, there could have been a Cretan? Could this explain the Cypriot value and some of the values on G25 like Greek_Cretan and Greek_Kos? Again, I'm not saying they were primarily Cretans or islanders. Could be mostly mainland Greeks. What are your thoughts on these ideas?

My paternal side does not show any obvious Celtic influence in the autosomes, but it is currently virtually impossible to discern such kind of genetic input in modern Anatolians (be them Turkish or Greek) even if it exists in higher than noise levels, see this thread for the details: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21622-How-much-Celtic-DNA-do-Turkish-people-have

In ancestry analyses it is better to have a good grasp of genealogy to make better sense of the results and build better models. In your case your knowledge on your paternal genealogy seems to be quite limited and confusing. I think you should also make use of the parish registers and also the Ottoman civil registers. For the latter I can be of help to you if you visit Istanbul to collect past population data about your ancestral villages from the Ottoman archive there.

I suggest you not take the percentage results of the genetic testing companies literally, most of the time they are not that accurate, especially in the low percentage ancestry assignments. Global25 and GEDmatch calculators are the best ancestry estimation tools you can use yourself and they are quite easy to use as you see. In addition to Vahaduo, you can use the G25 coordinates in these ancestry estimation tools:

https://genoplot.com/g25

https://yk.github.io/ancestry/

Marko47
09-18-2020, 02:29 PM
[QUOTE=Onur Dincer;700855]My paternal side does not show any obvious Celtic influence in the autosomes, but it is currently virtually impossible to discern such kind of genetic input in modern Anatolians (be them Turkish or Greek)

This helps me quite a bit actually. I have modern day matches, although distant, from the US, with French, Irish, British, German, and Scandinavian backgrounds. I have one particular surname in my exact 12 marker matches that occurs about 17 times that is British with what looks like a Norman background. This surname also occurs in a person in my autosomal match list as well. Although ethnicity estimates from major companies don't mean so much at face value, there are some patterns that make me think the Frankokratia suggestion makes a lot of sense. One site gives me 3% Irish/Scottish/Welsh, another gives me Scandinavian 5%, my dad French, Italian, etc. Z36 lineages are thought to be more Celtic than Roman, spread to North West Europe rather than Southern Italy. I'm definitely readjusting my thinking a bit, based on what you guys are telling me. I also appreciate your invitation Onur, I would totally do it if I got the chance.

Marko47
09-18-2020, 02:37 PM
https://yk.github.io/ancestry/[/QUOTE]

Onur, in the above link, what are the best settings to look at somewhat deeper ancestry? My father's paternal people seem to have very few autosomal matches as compared to the Pontic people in the family. The Greek names seem to be from my father's paternal grandmother than his paternal grandfather. It seems like the few paternal ancestors my father has, are the aforementioned distant American, Irish, French, etc matches and Baltic, Russian, and Ashkenazi/Sephardic Jewish matches. I realized that the more recent ancestors are probably Greek mainlanders/Thracians as you said earlier, but is there a setting in the link where I can go a bit further back? I experimented with the different settings without really knowing what they were doing and I did see some Gallo-Roman looking results, but I was wondering what would be the one you looked at specifically. Thanks again.

dosas
09-19-2020, 05:15 AM
stuff

My mother (Pontic Greek from Trabzon) shares 18.9 cM with your Giresun kit, matching on Chr. 2, and an estimated number of generations to MRCA = 4.8.

Marko47
09-19-2020, 02:10 PM
What a coincidence. Let's chat.

Onur Dincer
09-19-2020, 11:41 PM
https://yk.github.io/ancestry/

Onur, in the above link, what are the best settings to look at somewhat deeper ancestry? My father's paternal people seem to have very few autosomal matches as compared to the Pontic people in the family. The Greek names seem to be from my father's paternal grandmother than his paternal grandfather. It seems like the few paternal ancestors my father has, are the aforementioned distant American, Irish, French, etc matches and Baltic, Russian, and Ashkenazi/Sephardic Jewish matches. I realized that the more recent ancestors are probably Greek mainlanders/Thracians as you said earlier, but is there a setting in the link where I can go a bit further back? I experimented with the different settings without really knowing what they were doing and I did see some Gallo-Roman looking results, but I was wondering what would be the one you looked at specifically. Thanks again.

Marko, if you and your tested relatives join my FTDNA Anatolia-Balkans-Caucasus DNA Project, I can examine your match lists and make better assessments of the matches. You are all welcome to join my project:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/anatol-balkan-caucas/about

Marko47
09-20-2020, 04:41 PM
I have joined and included my father's autosomal results too.