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jdean
02-11-2014, 09:16 AM
Does anybody know how YCAII works ?

I know it's a multicopy marker so presumably has two identical STRs on different palindromic arms but I need to understand how these STRs ar counted a little better.


We've just had a result in on the surname project I run that looks to be a match for one of the larger groups.

However the GDs are quite high and this is partly due to YCAII

Everybody else in the group has 19-24 for YCAII but this fellow has 20-23

so is this two mutations or is it possible it could be one ?

Also is it possible FTDNA somehow miscounted this fellows values for these loci ?

Rathna
02-11-2014, 09:24 AM
Does anybody know how YCAII works ?

I know it's a multicopy marker so presumably has two identical STRs on different palindromic arms but I need to understand how these STRs ar counted a little better.


We've just had a result in on the surname project I run that looks to be a match for one of the larger groups.

However the GDs are quite high and this is partly due to YCAII

Everybody else in the group has 19-24 for YCAII but this fellow has 20-23

so is this two mutations or is it possible it could be one ?

Also is it possible FTDNA somehow miscounted this fellows values for these loci ?

Probably these two haplotypes presuppose the modal 19-23 and one mutated 19 to 20, the other 23 to 24, thus the mutation are 2 between them, and, as YCAIIa mutated slower than YCAIIb, the haplotype 20-23 is more interesting to compare, but I should see the haplotypes for saying more.

Rathna
02-11-2014, 09:49 AM
Probably these two haplotypes presuppose the modal 19-23 and one mutated 19 to 20, the other 23 to 24, thus the mutation are 2 between them, and, as YCAIIa mutated slower than YCAIIb, the haplotype 20-23 is more interesting to compare, but I should see the haplotypes for saying more.

Do these haplotypes with YCAII=19-24 belong to the same cluster? Yes, they do, and are very ancient:
204936 Smith Unknown Origin R1b1a2
13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 29 17 9-10 11 11 23 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 10 11 19-24 15 16 20 18 36-38 12 12 10 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23-23 14 10 12 12 13 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 14 11 11 12 12
13421 Mason unknown (Father adopted) Unknown Origin R1b1a2
13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 29 17 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 10 11 19-24 15 16 20 18 36-37 12 12 10 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23-23 14 10 12 12 13 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 14 11 11 12 12 35 15 9 16 12 24 26 20 12 11 13 12 11 9 13 12 10 11 11 31 12 13 24 13 10 10 20 15 19 13 24 18 12 15 25 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11
117897 Stedman John Stedman, 154?-1606, Aston Munslow, Shropshire England R1b1a2a1a1b4
13 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-15-16-17 10 11 19-24 16 15 18 17 37-38 11 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 14 11 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 36 15 9 16 12 25 26 19 12 11 13 11 11 9 13 12 10 11 11 28 12 13 24 13 10 11 19 15 20 13 24 19 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 15 18 9 12 11
30114 Biddick Matthew Biddick, Cornwall England R1b1a2
13 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 13 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-15-16-17 10 12 19-24 15 15 18 17 37-38 11 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23-23 14 10 12 12 13 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
86522 Thompson William M Thompson, b. 1813 SC d.1880 GA United Kingdom R1b1a2a1a1b4
14 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 29 17 9-9 11 11 24 15 19 30 15-15-15-15 10 11 19-24 15 16 19 18 36-36 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23-23 14 10 12 12 13 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 14 11 11 12 12

Rathna
02-11-2014, 10:51 AM
Also these haplotypes are probably related, and so on:
KY9NJ Goff Unknown
12 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15 15 17 17 10 11 19 24 15 15 18 17 37 38 11 12 12 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 23 23 14 10 12 11 13 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
VKUQ2 Gough Unknown
12 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 17 17 10 11 19 24 15 15 18 17 36 38 11 12 12 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 9 23 23 14 10 12 11 14 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

jdean
02-11-2014, 10:54 AM
I think you're the only other person who's noticed this group : )

Of course the fact that they are all in the DF49 project does help but I've being pursuing it for years now, AIH kit no. 86522 was almost the first person I contacted when my DF49+ result came through.

Anyhow as you say YCAII = 19-24 is clearly very old in the group so presumably the new Stedman participant had a mutation from 19 to 20 and 24 to 23, but is it possible for FTDNA to have misread this somehow ?

BTW I christened this cluster 10-10-24-14 but it goes by the name Scots Brother in the L21 WTY project.

Rathna
02-11-2014, 11:20 AM
I think you're the only other person who's noticed this group : )

Of course the fact that they are all in the DF49 project does help but I've being pursuing it for years now, AIH kit no. 86522 was almost the first person I contacted when my DF49+ result came through.

Anyhow as you say YCAII = 19-24 is clearly very old in the group so presumably the new Stedman participant had a mutation from 19 to 20 and 24 to 23, but is it possible for FTDNA to have misread this somehow ?

BTW I christened this cluster 10-10-24-14 but it goes by the name Scots Brother in the L21 WTY project.

Jdean, if you gave me some other information, perhaps I cold help you more. Which is your project?
The Stedmans are a little further from the haplotype, having DYS511=10 (the ancestral value probably) and not 9. I should see this last Stedman.
Of course I am interested to other haplotypes (above all the oldest of R1b I belong to), but also these DF49* seem to me very interesting, and you can say to me if Goff and Gough are the same pronunciation and if has something to do with this that Le Goff is a Breton surname.
It seems that these haplotypes belong to the most ancient R-L21 of the Isles.

jdean
02-11-2014, 01:51 PM
It would be easier for me to send you my spreadsheet if you're interested.

AIH I'm pretty sure the ancestral value for the group is 9, not the more obvious 10, but you like back mutations : )

Goff and Gough are both pronounced the same but there are a few different origins of the name.

Ones I know are

a nickname derived from a Welsh word for red (presumably hair) and probably the source for the name when it's found in the Welsh Marches (particularly common in Shropshire).

A Cornish word for a smith

Name brought over to East Anglia by Flemish weavers.

In this case I think it's a toss up between the first two, maybe the Biddick 111 will help when it comes in.

Rathna
02-11-2014, 02:14 PM
I'm on hurry, but I'd like to give a glance to your spreasheet, my address is

[email protected]