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View Full Version : Curiousity on my origins. (Albanian/Malesor/Kelmendi)



excine
09-22-2020, 11:23 PM
Hey everyone, newbie forum user here (just signed up today) I would like to request some insight from you guys

- As far as I know my Paternal side of the family originated somewhere in Vukel region in albania, but settled into Martinaj (Martinovice) in probably the 1600-1700s. I am apart of the Martini Clan, a muslim member of the Kelmendi tribe, (Hasangjekaj)

Any idea what my Haplogroup would be? or any of my origins?

Dorkymon
09-23-2020, 10:19 AM
Could be anything under the sun. You won't know until you test.

Bruzmi
09-23-2020, 12:29 PM
Hey everyone, newbie forum user here (just signed up today) I would like to request some insight from you guys

- As far as I know my Paternal side of the family originated somewhere in Vukel region in albania, but settled into Martinaj (Martinovice) in probably the 1600-1700s. I am apart of the Martini Clan, a muslim member of the Kelmendi tribe, (Hasangjekaj)

Any idea what my Haplogroup would be? or any of my origins?

If you're Kelmendi, there's a 99% chance that you fall under the E1b-V13>CTS9320>Z16988>Z27131>BY62310 cluster (http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/). You should still test to verify your personal lineage. Also, both the Hasangjekaj and Martini come from the same lineage, but the Hasangjekaj aren't descendants of Martin. Martin was from Selca, the Hasangjekaj are from Vukël.

excine
09-23-2020, 05:56 PM
Ah okay thanks for clearing things up, is there any chance who my direct ancestor may be? I heard stories that some Kuci tribesmen had a kid named Kelmendi who had 7 sons, I am not sure how accurate that is though

broder
09-24-2020, 12:13 AM
Kelmendi seems to have been formed as a fis by three lineages, though BY62310 make up the majority. You could also be J2b-Y23094 or R1b-Z2705. Only testing would sort that out.

Neither lineage has any connection to Kuqi.

Bruzmi
09-24-2020, 12:39 PM
Kelmendi seems to have been formed as a fis by three lineages, though BY62310 make up the majority. You could also be J2b-Y23094 or R1b-Z2705. Only testing would sort that out.

Neither lineage has any connection to Kuqi.

No. BY62310 doesn't make up the majority - it is the only Kelmendi lineage. The (very few) results to which you refer are not part of the Kelmendi fis, but fis in Kosovo which adopted the Kelmendi name, but they're not Kelmendi. There are quite a few such lineages in Kosovo in all fis. You can tell them apart from an actual X fis lineage in a very simple way: All actual lineages can be linked to the common ancestor and/or a particular microregion (a village, a settlement etc.), but for lineages that adopted the name no such link exists.

The ancestor of Kelmendi married a woman from the Bekaj brotherhood of Trieshi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triepshi_(tribe)) in the later Kuci nahiye of the Ottoman Empire

broder
09-24-2020, 02:15 PM
No. BY62310 doesn't make up the majority - it is the only Kelmendi lineage. The (very few) results to which you refer are not part of the Kelmendi fis, but fis in Kosovo which adopted the Kelmendi name, but they're not Kelmendi. There are quite a few such lineages in Kosovo in all fis. You can tell them apart from an actual X fis lineage in a very simple way: All actual lineages can be linked to the common ancestor and/or a particular microregion (a village, a settlement etc.), but for lineages that adopted the name no such link exists.

The ancestor of Kelmendi married a woman from the Bekaj brotherhood of Trieshi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triepshi_(tribe)) in the later Kuci nahiye of the Ottoman Empire

You're wrong. Rukaj that are J2b-Y23094 and Prekelezaj J2b-L283 (Most likely Y23094 like Rukaj) are not from Kosove. Rukaj are Nikç from Tamare while Prekelezaj from Nikç, Malesi. Same thing for Muriqi who are R1b-Z2705. They are part of the Kelmendi fis and have been ever since Kelmendi started forming as a fis.

Neither of those families are considered Anas or families that have joined Kelmend.

Our fis in majority of the cases are complex settlements that developed into a fis/tribe.

broder
09-24-2020, 02:29 PM
There are also Boge from Boge that have tested and are V13>L241 (probably PH2180 like some Shkrel families).

Bruzmi
09-24-2020, 04:23 PM
You're wrong. Rukaj that are J2b-Y23094 and Prekelezaj J2b-L283 (Most likely Y23094 like Rukaj) are not from Kosove. Rukaj are Nikç from Tamare while Prekelezaj from Nikç, Malesi. Same thing for Muriqi who are R1b-Z2705. They are part of the Kelmendi fis and have been ever since Kelmendi started forming as a fis.

Neither of those families are considered Anas or families that have joined Kelmend.

Our fis in majority of the cases are complex settlements that developed into a fis/tribe.

I was referring to the Muriqi samples which are from Peja. I wasn't aware of these other results - but again the main point is the same: they are not patrilineally descended from Kelmendi. Also, I'm not saying that in a cultural sense some of these families are not part of Kelmendi. There are many ways via which a fis i vogël can acquire the name of a fis - it doesn't have to be anas. They can be adopted or they can be matrilineal descendants or they can be part of another fis which gradually became part of the other fis. For example, we know from the defter of Shkodra in the late 15th century that with Kelmendi also lived the fis of Goljemadhi.

So, instead of saying that Kelmendi is composed of different lineages - it helps us better if we say that there is a "Kelmendi proper" lineage and other lineages which also carry the name via different historical pathways. That will help us to also identify fis that haven't left many traces in historical records.

broder
09-24-2020, 05:21 PM
I was referring to the Muriqi samples which are from Peja. I wasn't aware of these other results - but again the main point is the same: they are not patrilineally descended from Kelmendi. Also, I'm not saying that in a cultural sense some of these families are not part of Kelmendi. There are many ways via which a fis i vogël can acquire the name of a fis - it doesn't have to be anas. They can be adopted or they can be matrilineal descendants or they can be part of another fis which gradually became part of the other fis. For example, we know from the defter of Shkodra in the late 15th century that with Kelmendi also lived the fis of Goljemadhi.

So, instead of saying that Kelmendi is composed of different lineages - it helps us better if we say that there is a "Kelmendi proper" lineage and other lineages which also carry the name via different historical pathways. That will help us to also identify fis that haven't left many traces in historical records.

Every fis needs to be studied in detail before we can attribute a linage as the true representative or the 'proper' linage of the fis, especially when two or three lineages were part of the same settlement and identified as kin since their ethnogenesis.

What we can say is that BY62310 grew faster and came to dominate the fis. With that I would I agree.

Bruzmi
09-24-2020, 08:06 PM
What we can say is that BY62310 grew faster and came to dominate the fis.

The number of results that we have, if we were to write to paper about them, don't allow for any claim. They're good enough approximations, however, for a hypothesis to emerge which can be further tested in order to be verified. The number of results that we have - all point out to Kelmendi as BY62310. The number of families and brotherhoods that these results represent all show that Kelmendi developed from this particular common lineage.

The fact that there are few random outliers - in terms of lineages - which don't fall under this cluster, doesn't allow room for a hypothesis about "BY62310 grew faster and came to dominate the fis". Boga wasn't even part of Kelmendi in its early stages and if you were to ask around in Boga if it's part of Kelmendi - allow me to say that not all of the answers will be a "yes". If you want to look for fis links of these V13>L241 look to the Kiri and other locations.

Results from Peja or anywhere else in Kosovo that differ from most of the results basically show that these few families are not part of Kelmendi. There are such outliers in Kosovo for every fis. They just confirm that quite a few local Kosovo families became part of a particular fis (farefisni is a better term). To admit as much only helps us to better investigate Kosovo's demographic development in a proper way and shed light to the fis that composed it instead of lumping different fis together.

broder
09-25-2020, 02:19 AM
The number of results that we have, if we were to write to paper about them, don't allow for any claim. They're good enough approximations, however, for a hypothesis to emerge which can be further tested in order to be verified. The number of results that we have - all point out to Kelmendi as BY62310. The number of families and brotherhoods that these results represent all show that Kelmendi developed from this particular common lineage.

The fact that there are few random outliers - in terms of lineages - which don't fall under this cluster, doesn't allow room for a hypothesis about "BY62310 grew faster and came to dominate the fis". Boga wasn't even part of Kelmendi in its early stages and if you were to ask around in Boga if it's part of Kelmendi - allow me to say that not all of the answers will be a "yes". If you want to look for fis links of these V13>L241 look to the Kiri and other locations.

Results from Peja or anywhere else in Kosovo that differ from most of the results basically show that these few families are not part of Kelmendi. There are such outliers in Kosovo for every fis. They just confirm that quite a few local Kosovo families became part of a particular fis (farefisni is a better term). To admit as much only helps us to better investigate Kosovo's demographic development in a proper way and shed light to the fis that composed it instead of lumping different fis together.

Not just few outliers but solid vellazeri that can be found anywhere Kelmendi migrated - especially in Vuthaj, Rozhaje and Rugove; three large Kelmendi settlements. In Vuthaj for example you can find all three groups BY62310, Y23094 (Çelaj) and Z2705 (Qosja). Same thing in Rugove. I agree that Kosove is a mess to some extent but Kelmendi of Rugove are without any doubt just an extension of Kelmendi from Malesi. So, saying that these other lineages are not proper or true Kelmend, when we don't even know if such a person ever existed, seems odd to me. They could have acquired the fis name in some other fashion, like from a toponym or the saint for all we know.


Anyway, that BY62310 expanded rapidly is a fact, their tmcra is only like 450ybp. Muriqi from Klanac and few other villages from Sanxhak for example that went there directly from Malesi and the ones from Rugove appear to be older. They share a tmrca of approximately 700ybp with Muriqi from Rugove - who are without a doubt with origin from Kelmend (Vukel more specifically) - under R1b-Z2705>Y63957.


True, Boga as a settlement was part of Shkreli. Kelmendi moved in there as they expanded and eventually took it from them. So the L241 fella from Boge most likely is closely related to the Shkreli fella from Ducaj and few Shkreli samples from Sanxhak that are PH2180+. They could also be related to Kiri, who knows. They have only tested with 23andme. Kiri however don't appear to be that close to the Shkreli samples.

Bruzmi
09-27-2020, 09:57 AM
Not just few outliers but solid vellazeri that can be found anywhere Kelmendi migrated - especially in Vuthaj, Rozhaje and Rugove; three large Kelmendi settlements. In Vuthaj for example you can find all three groups BY62310, Y23094 (Çelaj) and Z2705 (Qosja). Same thing in Rugove. I agree that Kosove is a mess to some extent but Kelmendi of Rugove are without any doubt just an extension of Kelmendi from Malesi. So, saying that these other lineages are not proper or true Kelmend, when we don't even know if such a person ever existed, seems odd to me. They could have acquired the fis name in some other fashion, like from a toponym or the saint for all we know.

I think that the toponym existed independently of a person named Kelmend - it is a name that occurs among all Albanians in the middle Ages. Kelmend, however, was a historical figure. His name and the names of his sons appear in the defter of Shkodra. So, there is a lineage of Kelmend. And there are lineages that are not his descendants but became an integral part of what is known as the Kelmendi fis. The Muriqi lineage may be one of them, just like the Goljemadhi.

The Qosja brotherhood comes from Nrel Bala...who is linked to Muriqi. An interesting fact is that the Rexhepagaj/Rexhepagici of Plava who are Gruemiri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruemiri) belong to the wider lineage. To differentiate in terms of patrilineal lineages is not a discussion about who is "true Kelmendi" and who isn't - both are because kinship as a form of social formation is not an exclusively patrilineal process. The value of the discussion has to do with learning more about older fis/"substrata" which contributed to Kelmendi.