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View Full Version : My fellow R1b-Z2103+European Steppe + downstream subclades including Yamnaya Z2109+



Silesian
09-25-2020, 04:05 PM
A thread dedicated to all who share R1b-Z2103+subclades; and comment on possible place of origin and dispersal-migrations-cultural influence, without getting sidetracked.

So if you share the R1b-Z2103 and subclades feel to comment!

I did not want to believe some( Mis-clade ), but it actually looks like Corded Ware was influenced by Yamnaya component in a major way! While reading papers on Corded Ware and the relation to Yamnaya+ and by looking at the Northern Germanic project BY-250 R1b-BY250-Northern Germanic
R1b Sub-Clade BY250 plus specific R1b sub-clades in Corded Ware area (Lancers clade) !

Lancer
09-25-2020, 08:20 PM
Are you saying you are as surprised as I am that this haplogroup R1b-Z2103 has such strong Germanic Ancestry?

Silesian
09-26-2020, 11:13 AM
Are you saying you are as surprised as I am that this haplogroup R1b-Z2103 has such strong Germanic Ancestry?

Lancer what is your opinion on this, an upstream sample connecting to Mis and myself, in Poland!
formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybpinfo
BY250*

https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY250/

Lancer
09-26-2020, 03:24 PM
Silesian,

I test Derived for R1b-BY250 ( actually BY251) as well; hence my surprise and comment.

JoeyP37
09-26-2020, 03:48 PM
On YFull there is a lot of BY250 in Rhineland-Palatinate (where my western clade of R1a-L1029 is from), for what it's worth. Early peoples used rivers as highways, and the Rhine is a fairly major one.

Lancer
09-26-2020, 05:54 PM
Also, here is where my BY250 comes from:
PCA Distances
Global 25
Distance to: Louis_scaled
0.01685147 Italian_Campania
0.01976612 Sicilian_East
0.02075575 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.02082644 Italian_Basilicata
0.02109386 Italian_Apulia
0.02155902 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.02165167 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.02241145 Italian_Calabria
0.02291327 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.02299048 Italian_Abruzzo

Silesian
09-26-2020, 08:21 PM
Silesian,

I test Derived for R1b-BY250 ( actually BY251) as well; hence my surprise and comment.

Puzzle? R1b-BY250*is German.
However the related branch are Italian?
R-Y10789* [IT-CA]
3300 ybp, TMRCA 2100 ybp infoR-Y30192*[IT-AV]
We share a link in Russia- Mordoviya R-CTS1450
CTS1450 * Y5594 * Y5593+4 SNPsformed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 4600 ybpinfo
id:GRC14392107RUS [RU-MO]i

Any ideas where the lines could have split, Sarmatian activity?

Silesian
09-27-2020, 01:31 PM
It sure would be nice if we had some Polish speakers who could get a hold of the
Genetic analysis of the putative remains of general Władysław Sikorski
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19711812/
I use to be able compare his str's with R1b 9219+5587 living in south Eastern Poland(Rzeszow Foothills), were the recent R1b-L52 samples in Corded Ware! Or even compare them with future Sarmatian samples when they are released.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bBasalSubclades?iframe=ymap

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63138-w

Only a handful of sites were actually tested.

Silesian
09-27-2020, 02:08 PM
Anyone else notice
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/09/domestic-horses-were-introduced-into.html

Interest in horses is in the same general region where the oldest wagons by Yamnaya-Catacombe and some old variants of Yersinia pestis like RK1.001 can be found. Not to mention shared language ideas between Caucasus proto-Kartvelian and other languages, in words like wine, etc.....


Kartvelian (e.g. Georgian ღვინო [ɣvinɔ]),

Interesting would be, if any Armenian samples had Yersinia pestis and or the Armenian language shared a common word for wine with any other language.

Silesian
10-28-2020, 04:40 PM
R1b-Z2108-2109+ Yamnaya,Afanashevo, Catacombe,Chemurchek, Okunev, Karasuk cultures ? No R1a, until much later Andronovo-Xiaohe Cemetery period, no oil burners, stelae, metals-gold-silver etc....



No direct relationship has been shown with the Andronovo culture , which began in the middle of the 3rd millennium BC. the Afanashevo and Okunev cultures, but has not been demonstrated in the area of ​​the Xemirxek culture.

The Xemirxek culture (also written as Qiemuerqieke , Shamirshak , Chemurchek , Ke'ermuqi and others) is an archaeological culture of the Bronze Age and Early Iron Age ( 2500 - 1800 BC ) in northwestern Sinkiang ( Dzungaria ) and contiguous areas of the Oblast Eastern Kazakhstan , the provinces of Bajan-Ílgi Hovd and Uvs in Western Mongolia and the autonomous republic of Altaiin Russia. It is the earliest known Bronze Age culture in Sinkiang.

Are analysis of the Qiemu'erqieke (Shamirshak) cemeteries, Xinjian, China

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285604162_Areanalysis_of_the_Qiemu%27erqieke_Shami rshak_cemeteries_Xinjian_China#pf32


Stelae, oil burners, copper, bronze, rare sheep mutations. Perhaps the first metal connection with China Yellow basin region.

Caucasians moving East.

The connections with the Afanasievo and Qiemu’erqieke cultures have been made on the basis of the early date, some parallels between the shapes of the basketry and northern ceramics, and the identification of the Xiaohe and Gumuguo populations as Caucasoid (Xinjiang Institute of Archaeology 2003; Mallory and Mair

Lancer
12-13-2020, 05:10 PM
I have tested with Nat. Geo 2.0 and others including YSEQ. The dilemma I am trying to resolve is this:

The PCA Global 25 plots align with the NG2.0 showing I have distinct and solid ( Both Parents/Grands and Great Grands) Southern Italian (Naples and Calabria) via Greece and Anatolian Peninsula and yet my basal Y group is Y23493 which is being linked to the South France ALP Mountains. What is your thinking of using archeological DNA specific location versus PCA multi-variant locations?
Regards
Louis

Mis
12-14-2020, 08:20 AM
I don't know if I understand you well. You will conclude that autosomal has nothing to do with Y-dna. At least that's how it is for me.
I see you as a descendant of the Normans and merchants.