PDA

View Full Version : Is there any strong argument against a South Arabian origin of Ethio-Semitic?



Granary
09-26-2020, 07:54 PM
Basically I saw elsewhere some people contesting the idea that Ethio-Semitic came to the Horn of Africa from South Arabia during the Bronze age or early Iron Age and they tend to either claim that Semitic was native(which is obviously wrong and I don't think worth entertaining) or claim that Ethio-Semitic came directly from the Levant, which is also weird but at the same time some genetic papers also said something like this.
The question is whether there is actually any real argument that would support an origin outside of South Arabia(or even Arabia in general) in the fields of linguistics, archeology or genetics.

davit
09-26-2020, 08:22 PM
I'd be curious on this and also about the origin of Afroasiatic languages as a whole. I haven't kept up with the debates so not sure what the current line of thinking is.

drobbah
09-27-2020, 02:32 AM
Semitic languages came directly from Yemen to the Northern Highlands and there was probably another migration to the lowlands of the Horn aswell (Afar and Northern Somalia) that brought camels,lineages like T1a & J1 and very old Semitic loanwords

NetNomad
09-27-2020, 06:02 AM
I have come across some Ethiopian nationalists on the internet who claim Semitic comes from Ethiopia. Usually they use flawed arguments like that Ethiopia has more diversity of Afro-Asiatic languages than the Middle East, despite this not being relevant to the origins of the specific subgroup Semitic. These are fringe views and often are only held by Ethiopian nationalists or some Afrocentrists.

Granary
09-27-2020, 10:05 AM
Semitic languages came directly from Yemen to the Northern Highlands and there was probably another migration to the lowlands of the Horn aswell (Afar and Northern Somalia) that brought camels,lineages like T1a & J1 and very old Semitic loanwords
Do you have links for that? I was wondering why the Afar triangle was not Semiticized given it's geographically the closest of Yemen.


I have come across some Ethiopian nationalists on the internet who claim Semitic comes from Ethiopia. Usually they use flawed arguments like that Ethiopia has more diversity of Afro-Asiatic languages than the Middle East, despite this not being relevant to the origins of the specific subgroup Semitic. These are fringe views and often are only held by Ethiopian nationalists or some Afrocentrists.
I found people claiming that too but they don't seem to be nationalistic per se.

Atlas
09-27-2020, 11:34 AM
Basically I saw elsewhere some people contesting the idea that Ethio-Semitic came to the Horn of Africa from South Arabia during the Bronze age or early Iron Age and they tend to either claim that Semitic was native(which is obviously wrong and I don't think worth entertaining) or claim that Ethio-Semitic came directly from the Levant, which is also weird but at the same time some genetic papers also said something like this.
The question is whether there is actually any real argument that would support an origin outside of South Arabia(or even Arabia in general) in the fields of linguistics, archeology or genetics.

I have seen this, too actually... usually from very patriotic Ethiopians, but I'll have a look for some of the papers/books I've come across on the idea of a Horn origin for Semitic languages.


I'd be curious on this and also about the origin of Afroasiatic languages as a whole. I haven't kept up with the debates so not sure what the current line of thinking is.

I would direct you to this thread, and to this post by Agamemnon in particular, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19442-Iberomaurasians-and-Proto-Afroasiatic/page9&highlight=afro-asiatic. It seems likely that Afro-asiatic languages originated in Eastern Africa and spread from there, coming full circle with the return of Semitic to form the Ethio-Semitic languages of Ethiopia and Eritrea today.


Semitic languages came directly from Yemen to the Northern Highlands and there was probably another migration to the lowlands of the Horn aswell (Afar and Northern Somalia) that brought camels,lineages like T1a & J1 and very old Semitic loanwords

I agree with you on the origin of Ethio-Semitic languages, but how certain are you that camels were brought (and by brought, I assume you mean first domesticated and then brought) from Arabia to the Horn? From what I've seen, people aren't entirely sure if camels were domesticated first in southern Arabia or the Horn (that is, when they consider the last one).

TheIncredibleHulk
09-27-2020, 12:18 PM
I have seen this, too actually... usually from very patriotic Ethiopians, but I'll have a look for some of the papers/books I've come across on the idea of a Horn origin for Semitic languages.



I would direct you to this thread, and to this post by Agamemnon in particular, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19442-Iberomaurasians-and-Proto-Afroasiatic/page9&highlight=afro-asiatic. It seems likely that Afro-asiatic languages originated in Eastern Africa and spread from there, coming full circle with the return of Semitic to form the Ethio-Semitic languages of Ethiopia and Eritrea today.



I agree with you on the origin of Ethio-Semitic languages, but how certain are you that camels were brought (and by brought, I assume you mean first domesticated and then brought) from Arabia to the Horn? From what I've seen, people aren't entirely sure if camels were domesticated first in southern Arabia or the Horn (that is, when they consider the last one).

Archeogenetics have confirmed this in 2016 that all of the domesticated dromedary camels originated in South-Eastern Arabia around 3,000 years ago:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/05/160509191839.htm

Thus, we can say that the domesticated dromedary camels were indeed brought to Africa by Arabian migrants not long ago and so on, and it's not a coincidence that the earliest Arabs that were mentioned in written history was in the same time frame(Gindibu and his Arab troops in the battle of Qarqar around 853 BCE).

GabrielZelalem
09-27-2020, 04:39 PM
Perhaps the Levantine migration claim is related to the folklore around the Solomonic Dynasty ?
Thanks to modern day tools like Y/mtDna and linguistics it is very clear that Ethio-Semitic languages and its speakers (but not only) are closely related to Southern Arabia.

drobbah
09-27-2020, 07:35 PM
I have seen this, too actually... usually from very patriotic Ethiopians, but I'll have a look for some of the papers/books I've come across on the idea of a Horn origin for Semitic languages.



I would direct you to this thread, and to this post by Agamemnon in particular, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19442-Iberomaurasians-and-Proto-Afroasiatic/page9&highlight=afro-asiatic. It seems likely that Afro-asiatic languages originated in Eastern Africa and spread from there, coming full circle with the return of Semitic to form the Ethio-Semitic languages of Ethiopia and Eritrea today.



I agree with you on the origin of Ethio-Semitic languages, but how certain are you that camels were brought (and by brought, I assume you mean first domesticated and then brought) from Arabia to the Horn? From what I've seen, people aren't entirely sure if camels were domesticated first in southern Arabia or the Horn (that is, when they consider the last one).
Camels were domesticated in Arabia (no one sane would argue otherwise) and most of the camel related terms in the Somali/Rendille language including the word for camel is of Semitic origin

Granary
09-27-2020, 08:41 PM
Camels were domesticated in Arabia (no one sane would argue otherwise) and most of the camel related terms in the Somali/Rendille language including the word for camel is of Semitic origin
What kind of Semitic? Ancient South Arabian?

davit
09-27-2020, 08:43 PM
Camels were domesticated in Arabia (no one sane would argue otherwise) and most of the camel related terms in the Somali/Rendille language including the word for camel is of Semitic origin

Kind of offf topic but were camels in Central Asia domesticated independently of Arabia (or the Horn) or is there a relation?

drobbah
09-27-2020, 08:53 PM
What kind of Semitic? Ancient South Arabian?
There's a paper on the different sources of Semitic loanwords in Northern Somali (modern standard Somali), the paper suggested that the many words for camels were mostly of ASA origin and are also found in Rendille which is a close linguistic cousin of Somali and are mostly camel herders in Northern Kenya surrounded by cattle hearding nilotic speakers and Borana Oromo cattle herders

davit
09-27-2020, 08:58 PM
I have seen this, too actually... usually from very patriotic Ethiopians, but I'll have a look for some of the papers/books I've come across on the idea of a Horn origin for Semitic languages.



I would direct you to this thread, and to this post by Agamemnon in particular, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?19442-Iberomaurasians-and-Proto-Afroasiatic/page9&highlight=afro-asiatic. It seems likely that Afro-asiatic languages originated in Eastern Africa and spread from there, coming full circle with the return of Semitic to form the Ethio-Semitic languages of Ethiopia and Eritrea today.



I agree with you on the origin of Ethio-Semitic languages, but how certain are you that camels were brought (and by brought, I assume you mean first domesticated and then brought) from Arabia to the Horn? From what I've seen, people aren't entirely sure if camels were domesticated first in southern Arabia or the Horn (that is, when they consider the last one).

It's interesting. Reading that thread told me that PAA could have been predominantly SSA or ANA or West Eurasian or Basal Eurasian or any combination of those four components.

I'm more confused now.

TheIncredibleHulk
09-28-2020, 03:07 PM
Kind of offf topic but were camels in Central Asia domesticated independently of Arabia (or the Horn) or is there a relation?

Bactrian Camels are a different species from Dromedary camels, and the wild Bactrian Camels are also a separate species from both domesticated species. All these three species of Camels belong in the genus, Camelus which also includes other extinct Camel species. The wild ancestors for both dromedary and bactrian camels are extinct not long ago.

TheIncredibleHulk
09-28-2020, 03:08 PM
There's a paper on the different sources of Semitic loanwords in Northern Somali (modern standard Somali), the paper suggested that the many words for camels were mostly of ASA origin and are also found in Rendille which is a close linguistic cousin of Somali and are mostly camel herders in Northern Kenya surrounded by cattle hearding nilotic speakers and Borana Oromo cattle herders

Makes a lot of sense considering that the Old South Arabians like the Sabaeans and etc have had very close cultural and trade links with the horn of Africa since ancient times.

Mirix
10-05-2020, 03:42 PM
It seems very unlikely that South Semetic originated anywhere else but South Arabia. Evidence is lacking. Although one thing that has been overruled is the Sabaean migration theory because of the evidence of spoken Semetic language in Ethiopia as far back as 2000 BC before their arrival in the Area. Likewise Geez is no longer classified as an Old South Arabian language is now thought of as being evolved from Proto-Ethio-Semetic language . This means that Ethio-Semetic diverged from South Arabian before 2000 BCE. It first evolved in the African side of the red sea left and then reverse migrated back.


Semitic languages came directly from Yemen to the Northern Highlands and there was probably another migration to the lowlands of the Horn aswell (Afar and Northern Somalia) that brought camels,lineages like T1a & J1 and very old Semitic loanwords

I don't think T1 in Somalia is brought by Yemeni migrations to Somalia. Those lineages probably arrived through North africa via the red sea if anything else and their concentration/frequency in the north is probably due to founder effect. Haplogroup Ts origins is in the fertile crescent.

J1 is to uncommon to make real mentions of probably a minor neolithic lineage.


Origins & History

The higher frequency of T in East Africa would be due to a founder effect among Neolithic farmers or pastoralists from the Middle East.
Haplogroup T emerged from haplogroup K, the ancestor of most of the Eurasian haplogroups (L, N, O, P, Q, R and T), some time between 45,000 and 35,000 years ago. The vast majority of modern members of haplogroup T belong to the T1a branch, which developed during the late glacial period, between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago, possibily in the vicinity of the Iranian Plateau.

Although haplogroup T is more common today in East Africa than anywhere else, it almost certainly spread from the Fertile Crescent with the rise of agriculture. Indeed, the oldest subclades and the greatest diversity of T is found in the Middle East, especially around the Fertile Crescent. Lazaridis et al. (2016) However, considering that J1 peaks in Yemen and Sudan, while T1 is most common in southern Egypt, Eritrea and Somalia, the two may not necessarily have spread together. They might instead have spread as separate nomadic tribes of herders who colonised the Red Sea region during the Neolithic, a period than spanned over several millennia. Nevertheless both are found in all the Arabian peninsula, all the way from Egypt to Somalia,
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml

Shanck
10-05-2020, 04:07 PM
Isn't it obvious that Ethio-Semitic speakers owe a small (but significant) amount of their ancestry to a South Arabian population during the Late Bronze/Early Iron age (and subsequently to Neolithic Levantines and Arabian nomads), and not to hinder preceding influence from Levantine populations during the Neolithic. It's also evident in some of their Y-haplogroup lineages as others have pointed out.

drobbah
10-05-2020, 04:12 PM
It seems very unlikely that South Semetic originated anywhere else but South Arabia. Evidence is lacking. Although one thing that has been overruled is the Sabaean migration theory because of the evidence of spoken Semetic language in Ethiopia as far back as 2000 BC before their arrival in the Area. Likewise Geez is no longer classified as an Old South Arabian language is now thought of as being evolved from Proto-Ethio-Semetic language . This means that Ethio-Semetic diverged from South Arabian before 2000 BCE. It first evolved in the African side of the red sea left and then reverse migrated back.



I don't think T1 in Somalia is brought by Yemeni migrations to Somalia. Those lineages probably arrived through North africa via the red sea if anything else and their concentration/frequency in the north is probably due to founder effect. Haplogroup Ts origins is in the fertile crescent.

J1 is to uncommon to make real mentions of probably a minor neolithic lineage.


Origins & History

The higher frequency of T in East Africa would be due to a founder effect among Neolithic farmers or pastoralists from the Middle East.
Haplogroup T emerged from haplogroup K, the ancestor of most of the Eurasian haplogroups (L, N, O, P, Q, R and T), some time between 45,000 and 35,000 years ago. The vast majority of modern members of haplogroup T belong to the T1a branch, which developed during the late glacial period, between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago, possibily in the vicinity of the Iranian Plateau.

Although haplogroup T is more common today in East Africa than anywhere else, it almost certainly spread from the Fertile Crescent with the rise of agriculture. Indeed, the oldest subclades and the greatest diversity of T is found in the Middle East, especially around the Fertile Crescent. Lazaridis et al. (2016) However, considering that J1 peaks in Yemen and Sudan, while T1 is most common in southern Egypt, Eritrea and Somalia, the two may not necessarily have spread together. They might instead have spread as separate nomadic tribes of herders who colonised the Red Sea region during the Neolithic, a period than spanned over several millennia. Nevertheless both are found in all the Arabian peninsula, all the way from Egypt to Somalia,
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml
The T in Dir clan isn't old and doesn't seem cushitic related.As of now it seems to be a bronze age Semitic lineage that arrived in modern Somaliland

vettor
10-05-2020, 04:46 PM
It seems very unlikely that South Semetic originated anywhere else but South Arabia. Evidence is lacking. Although one thing that has been overruled is the Sabaean migration theory because of the evidence of spoken Semetic language in Ethiopia as far back as 2000 BC before their arrival in the Area. Likewise Geez is no longer classified as an Old South Arabian language is now thought of as being evolved from Proto-Ethio-Semetic language . This means that Ethio-Semetic diverged from South Arabian before 2000 BCE. It first evolved in the African side of the red sea left and then reverse migrated back.



I don't think T1 in Somalia is brought by Yemeni migrations to Somalia. Those lineages probably arrived through North africa via the red sea if anything else and their concentration/frequency in the north is probably due to founder effect. Haplogroup Ts origins is in the fertile crescent.

J1 is to uncommon to make real mentions of probably a minor neolithic lineage.


Origins & History

The higher frequency of T in East Africa would be due to a founder effect among Neolithic farmers or pastoralists from the Middle East.
Haplogroup T emerged from haplogroup K, the ancestor of most of the Eurasian haplogroups (L, N, O, P, Q, R and T), some time between 45,000 and 35,000 years ago. The vast majority of modern members of haplogroup T belong to the T1a branch, which developed during the late glacial period, between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago, possibily in the vicinity of the Iranian Plateau.

Although haplogroup T is more common today in East Africa than anywhere else, it almost certainly spread from the Fertile Crescent with the rise of agriculture. Indeed, the oldest subclades and the greatest diversity of T is found in the Middle East, especially around the Fertile Crescent. Lazaridis et al. (2016) However, considering that J1 peaks in Yemen and Sudan, while T1 is most common in southern Egypt, Eritrea and Somalia, the two may not necessarily have spread together. They might instead have spread as separate nomadic tribes of herders who colonised the Red Sea region during the Neolithic, a period than spanned over several millennia. Nevertheless both are found in all the Arabian peninsula, all the way from Egypt to Somalia,
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml

The T in yemen and somalia came via the levant which received T along with R1b-V88 circa 9000 bc .............this group came from Asia Minor together...............the T in question is the more populous T1a1 branch ...................

there is a paper on this by a woman.....I cannot recall....but below is a very very small extraction

https://i.postimg.cc/1tC3RzLw/r1v88-t1a.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

drobbah
10-05-2020, 05:04 PM
The T in Somaliland is from Yemen.The upstream subclades is in Asir (SW Saudi Arabia) & Hijaz (Western Saudi).Somali T isn't related to the NE African T-subclades and the T1a found in other Horners.

Mnemonics
10-05-2020, 05:55 PM
The T in Somaliland is from Yemen.The upstream subclades is in Asir (SW Saudi Arabia) & Hijaz (Western Saudi).Somali T isn't related to the NE African T-subclades and the T1a found in other Horners.

I don't know if we can say it came specifically from Yemen when all the places we have samples from have been parts of pilgrimage networks but somewhere on the Arabian Red Sea coast seems likely. My own suspicions are that it came from a coastal purely pastoralist camelherding group like the Debae.

T-Y16897 seems like it has a Anatolian origin in the late neolithic or early chalcolithic.

drobbah
10-05-2020, 06:40 PM
I don't know if we can say it came specifically from Yemen when all the places we have samples from have been parts of pilgrimage networks but somewhere on the Arabian Red Sea coast seems likely. My own suspicions are that it came from a coastal purely pastoralist camelherding group like the Debae.

T-Y16897 seems like it has a Anatolian origin in the late neolithic or early chalcolithic.
Considering the oldest Semitic loanwords in the proto-Somali languages is related to ASA, I assumed it probably came from Yemen although Yemenis are more of an agricultural culture than a nomadic one

Mirix
10-05-2020, 07:03 PM
The reason why i say that it's probably came to North Africa from the Middle East/Levant area and then made its way to the horn of africa through the red sea coast is because of one that has been found in Morocco has been radiocarbon-dated to around 3,000 BCE, have been found to belong to haplogroup T-M184 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/02/20/191569.full.pdf and this is the T1a1a (L208/PAGES2) subclade

T lineage Somalis have is a result of founder effect not a recent mass migration of Arabs. But it's certaintly not from Yemen where Haplogroup T is rather very uncommon and restricted to Yemenite Jews. Furthermore the Dirs Somalis ( T1a ) have nothing in common with Yemeni. The T in yemeni appear to be only of Jewish/israeli people . https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/genetics-and-the-jews#.WaXVbtFLdPY

drobbah
10-05-2020, 07:27 PM
The reason why i say that it's probably came to North Africa from the Middle East/Levant area and then made its way to the horn of africa through the red sea coast is because of one that has been found in Morocco has been radiocarbon-dated to around 3,000 BCE, have been found to belong to haplogroup T-M184 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/02/20/191569.full.pdf and this is the T1a1a (L208/PAGES2) subclade

T lineage Somalis have is a result of founder effect not a recent mass migration of Arabs. But it's certaintly not from Yemen where Haplogroup T is rather very uncommon and restricted to Yemenite Jews. Furthermore the Dirs Somalis ( T1a ) have nothing in common with Yemeni. The T in yemeni appear to be only of Jewish/israeli people . https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/genetics-and-the-jews#.WaXVbtFLdPY
The Late Neolithic Moroccan T1a is not related to the Somali one.Go check the yfull tree yourself, Somali T is a young branch of Arabian T.

Mnemonics
10-06-2020, 04:07 AM
That Late Neolithic Moroccan is also very heavily Anatolian, its branch of T-L208 is likely Iberian in origin rather than from the Levant.
T was likely foreign to most of Levant and North Africa until the influx of Anatolian admixture hit both regions.

beyoku
10-06-2020, 12:55 PM
Basically I saw elsewhere some people contesting the idea that Ethio-Semitic came to the Horn of Africa from South Arabia during the Bronze age or early Iron Age and they tend to either claim that Semitic was native(which is obviously wrong and I don't think worth entertaining) or claim that Ethio-Semitic came directly from the Levant, which is also weird but at the same time some genetic papers also said something like this.
The question is whether there is actually any real argument that would support an origin outside of South Arabia(or even Arabia in general) in the fields of linguistics, archeology or genetics.

I believe you want to look into the works of Grover Hudson and the late Ofer Bar Yosef (https://anthropology.fas.harvard.edu/news/ofer-bar-yosef-1937-2020) that did a lot of work looking at the relationship between the Horn of Africa and Arabia. I think it was those two as members of the mainstream that pushed the Ethiopian origin on Semitic hypothesis.

TheIncredibleHulk
10-06-2020, 02:23 PM
Considering the oldest Semitic loanwords in the proto-Somali languages is related to ASA, I assumed it probably came from Yemen although Yemenis are more of an agricultural culture than a nomadic one

Camels aren't just used by nomads, and the ancient south Arabian kingdoms were just as loving towards camels as we are, rofl. Camels were used for trade and etc, and the ancient South Arabians were great traders and etc which can be said about the Nabateans and other Arabs in the North.

TheIncredibleHulk
10-06-2020, 02:23 PM
I believe you want to look into the works of Grover Hudson and the late Ofer Bar Yosef (https://anthropology.fas.harvard.edu/news/ofer-bar-yosef-1937-2020) that did a lot of work looking at the relationship between the Horn of Africa and Arabia. I think it was those two as members of the mainstream that pushed the Ethiopian origin on Semitic hypothesis.

No evidence whatsoever, and it is already been established that the Levant region is the homeland of the proto-Semitic peoples.

Awale
10-06-2020, 03:06 PM
I agree with you on the origin of Ethio-Semitic languages, but how certain are you that camels were brought (and by brought, I assume you mean first domesticated and then brought) from Arabia to the Horn? From what I've seen, people aren't entirely sure if camels were domesticated first in southern Arabia or the Horn (that is, when they consider the last one).

Drobbah is referencing this old paper (https://www.academia.edu/5529034/2013_Strata_in_Semitic_loanwords_in_Northern_Somal i), I believe. Not many are aware of it, it's quite obscure. I myself encountered it through Lank many many years ago and made it known to the forum only recently. Basically, it finds that the word for camel, Geel, in our language comes from OSA which seems pretty damning as to where camel domestication came from. But, honestly, someone else can share some data they have that I haven't seen but I'm not aware of any clear evidence that camels came to Somalia through South-Arabia directly. Could have easily been from South-Arabia to Northeast Sudan or Eritrea and then went down to Somalis where our camel herding traditions seem pretty similar to those of Afars, for instance. I hunted for the word for "camel" in Beja, Saho and Afar ages back with no luck, just wanted to see if it could be linked to the OSA word in Somali.


I don't know if we can say it came specifically from Yemen when all the places we have samples from have been parts of pilgrimage networks but somewhere on the Arabian Red Sea coast seems likely. My own suspicions are that it came from a coastal purely pastoralist camelherding group like the Debae.

T-Y16897 seems like it has a Anatolian origin in the late neolithic or early chalcolithic.

And correct me if I'm wrong but don't we just have 1 Eritrean sample from the rest of the Horn? And some Sudani samples. I wouldn't be so sure just yet that the T found in Somalis isn't found in the rest of the Horn.

Update:

And I just found (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303831189_Ecological_and_Social_Wisdom_in_Camel_Pr aise_Poetry_Sung_by_Afar_Nomads_of_Ethiopia) the word in Afar and I'm no linguist but it clearly seems similar to the Somali word. "Gaal" or "Gaali" by the looks of it. Yeah... Wouldn't be so sure Somalis got it directly from Arabia but who knows.

Mnemonics
10-06-2020, 04:48 PM
Its definitely true that we don't have more T-M184 samples from East Africa. However, I suspect that if T is related to the introduction of camel herding we may find that the branches of T found in various Tanzanian and Kenyan groups are related or at least have a similar tmrca, as the camel populations there areas fairly weakly differentiated from those in Somalia. We just need to wait and see.

drobbah
10-06-2020, 05:29 PM
Drobbah is referencing this old paper (https://www.academia.edu/5529034/2013_Strata_in_Semitic_loanwords_in_Northern_Somal i), I believe. Not many are aware of it, it's quite obscure. I myself encountered it through Lank many many years ago and made it known to the forum only recently. Basically, it finds that the word for camel, Geel, in our language comes from OSA which seems pretty damning as to where camel domestication came from. But, honestly, someone else can share some data they have that I haven't seen but I'm not aware of any clear evidence that camels came to Somalia through South-Arabia directly. Could have easily been from South-Arabia to Northeast Sudan or Eritrea and then went down to Somalis where our camel herding traditions seem pretty similar to those of Afars, for instance. I hunted for the word for "camel" in Beja, Saho and Afar ages back with no luck, just wanted to see if it could be linked to the OSA word in Somali.

Camel related vocabulary that are of Semitic origin from the paper:

NS gel m. ‘camel’ has -ee- < -aa-, that is still preserved, e.g., in NS
compounds like haruub-gal m. ‘vessel for milking camels’ or daba-ggalle
m. ‘ground squirrel’ (lit. ‘having a camel tail’), etc. East Cushitic *gaala
‘camel’ is from Semitic *gamal- ‘id.’ and the most likely intermediary has
been a language spoken in Southern Arabia when camels were introduced
to the eastern Horn ca. 2000 years ago, as argued in Banti (2000: 49 f.).
Gml ‘camel’ is well attested in Sabaic. However, the loss of -m- is not regular
in ASA, nor in NS or any known East Cushitic language, and points to a
different language: loss of -m- between vowels occurs several times in
Southern Ethiosemitic and in MSA.


NS qalin m. and qaaln f. (pl. qaalm-) ‘young camel or calf when
it approaches sexual maturity’ (nef gel h ama l’ oo d’ yr
Yaasiin Cismaan Keenadiid 1976: 333b), with ġ > q and -m > -n in
syllable coda, that are regular developments. From the Semitic root
ĠLM, attested in Sabaic ġlm ‘boy, child’, or directly from Ar. ġālim
(participle of ġalima) or ġalim both meaning ‘excited by lust’, from
the same root Ar. has ġillīm ‘(he-camel) excited by lust’ and ġulām
‘a young man, youth’. The present author already pointed out (Banti
2000) that it also occurs in Rendille khalim m. ‘male camel calf’
and khaalm f. ‘female camel calf’ and is thus unlikely to be a recent
loanword. The ASA hypothesis assigns qaalin to the oldest core of
camel-related terms that entered the eastern Horn, together with
*gaala ‘camel’ > NS gel; in this case, the extension to bovine
calves is a secondary development.


The fragmentary nature of what is known about ASA and, even worse,
about Himyaritic makes it difficult to identify many other terms as old
loanwords from these languages. But in the four above cases, there is no
compelling evidence for excluding a pre-Islamic origin. A more careful examination
of the NS lexicon related to camels, building, and incense may
yield some other findings.


Considering the Rendille also have these terms and are mostly camel herders unlike their Borana or Samburu neighbors strengthen the case that perhaps camels were introduced in modern Somaliland, proto-Somaal speakers whether affected directly by South Arabians or indirectly via the Afar were taught camel domestication and camel-related Semitic terms?

Also the Semitic lineages we find among the Somalis like J1 and T-M70 have appropriate tmrca's with the Arabians that date back to the time period that could have been when camels were introduced.T-Y45591 for example has a tmrca of 3000 ybp & J-Y178103 has a tmrca of 2400 ybp.Plus we already have very minor evidence of a Yemenite presence not only in the coast of Sanaag but also inland in modern Gabiley district and between Hargeisa & Berbera.


https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1007%2Fs10437-015-9184-9/MediaObjects/10437_2015_9184_Fig3_HTML.gif?as=webp

Mirix
10-06-2020, 09:18 PM
Drobbah is referencing this old paper (https://www.academia.edu/5529034/2013_Strata_in_Semitic_loanwords_in_Northern_Somal i), I believe. Not many are aware of it, it's quite obscure. I myself encountered it through Lank many many years ago and made it known to the forum only recently. Basically, it finds that the word for camel, Geel, in our language comes from OSA which seems pretty damning as to where camel domestication came from. But, honestly, someone else can share some data they have that I haven't seen but I'm not aware of any clear evidence that camels came to Somalia through South-Arabia directly. Could have easily been from South-Arabia to Northeast Sudan or Eritrea and then went down to Somalis where our camel herding traditions seem pretty similar to those of Afars, for instance. I hunted for the word for "camel" in Beja, Saho and Afar ages back with no luck, just wanted to see if it could be linked to the OSA word in Somali.



And correct me if I'm wrong but don't we just have 1 Eritrean sample from the rest of the Horn? And some Sudani samples. I wouldn't be so sure just yet that the T found in Somalis isn't found in the rest of the Horn.

Update:

And I just found (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303831189_Ecological_and_Social_Wisdom_in_Camel_Pr aise_Poetry_Sung_by_Afar_Nomads_of_Ethiopia) the word in Afar and I'm no linguist but it clearly seems similar to the Somali word. "Gaal" or "Gaali" by the looks of it. Yeah... Wouldn't be so sure Somalis got it directly from Arabia but who knows.

Thats very interesting.

The word Geel/Gaal could just be an archaic Afro-Asiatic word , possibly from a common pastoral heritage. For Somalis it appears in Hawiye Clan names like ''GaalJecel'',(That which loves the Camel), Abgaal(Father of Camel) and also in several location names like Gaalkacyo etc

Evidently ''Gaal'' is Camel in Old Somali or Af Maay, and Geel in the Somali proper seems to be a recent innovation.

But also i found this etymology based website that suggests that it's of Proto-AfroAsiatic origin https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fsemham%2Fafaset&text_number=2508&root=config Not sure how reliable this is.

About camel domestication there seems to be a couple of authors that are arguing for seperate camel domestication in the Horn of Africa from translocated wild camels of Arabia 40093
https://books.google.nl/books?id=_GCTDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA424&dq=gaal+camel+afroasiatic&hl=no&sa=X#v=onepage&q=gaal%20camel%20afroasiatic&f=false

Alfa
10-06-2020, 09:59 PM
Its definitely true that we don't have more T-M184 samples from East Africa. However, I suspect that if T is related to the introduction of camel herding we may find that the branches of T found in various Tanzanian and Kenyan groups are related or at least have a similar tmrca, as the camel populations there areas fairly weakly differentiated from those in Somalia. We just need to wait and see.

There are rare cases of T-M184 in Uganda, and in 1 hutu/1 Tutsi from Rwanda, but I am not sure which subclades they belong to. There is also T-M184 cases reported in Zambia, Tanzania, I won't be suprised if its found in Burundi and South East RDC as well. With more samples and genetic studies in Great Lakes/South East Africa, we will know more when T-M184 arrived in East Africa.

Note I don't want to derail this thread.

xenus
10-06-2020, 10:00 PM
I looked at (and probably posted) YDNA and MTDNA TMRCA and coalescence estimates a couple months ago when there was another Ethio-Semitic thread. You can twist the question lots of ways though, and although I don't really see any good arguments myself, if someone wants to argue because they like arguing they could say something like "Ethio-Semitic only exists in Africa, Ethio-Semitic languages formed as part of a process of ethnogenesis which occurred as the dominant semitic language of the migrants from South Arabia was laid atop the indigenous substrate".

drobbah
10-06-2020, 10:33 PM
And correct me if I'm wrong but don't we just have 1 Eritrean sample from the rest of the Horn? And some Sudani samples. I wouldn't be so sure just yet that the T found in Somalis isn't found in the rest of the Horn.

Update:

And I just found (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303831189_Ecological_and_Social_Wisdom_in_Camel_Pr aise_Poetry_Sung_by_Afar_Nomads_of_Ethiopia) the word in Afar and I'm no linguist but it clearly seems similar to the Somali word. "Gaal" or "Gaali" by the looks of it. Yeah... Wouldn't be so sure Somalis got it directly from Arabia but who knows.
The 8 Sudanese samples are all Tigre and fall under the same branch of T-Y15711.Judging by the age of this clade, it could be a legit Cushitic T1a lineage.

beyoku
10-07-2020, 01:34 AM
No evidence whatsoever, and it is already been established that the Levant region is the homeland of the proto-Semitic peoples.

Don't be such a weirdo. The poster asked if there was evidence. I then suggested 2 authors that speak of that evidence. Obviously the evidence exists......its just not sufficient for most to favor Ethiopian origins over the Levant which has MORE evidence. Hudson (https://msu.edu/~hudson/index.htm) is a linguist actually specializing in Ethiopian languages. Bar Yosef credentials in archeology and length in the field places him among the elites. So if you want to evaluate the evidence, THESE are the guys you have to read. Please don't come to the thread, so matter of fact shooting at the messenger.

TheIncredibleHulk
10-07-2020, 04:20 AM
Its definitely true that we don't have more T-M184 samples from East Africa. However, I suspect that if T is related to the introduction of camel herding we may find that the branches of T found in various Tanzanian and Kenyan groups are related or at least have a similar tmrca, as the camel populations there areas fairly weakly differentiated from those in Somalia. We just need to wait and see.

Dromedary camels were domesticated in Southern Arabia according to this 2016 science article based on genetics here:
https://www.pnas.org/content/113/24/6588

TheIncredibleHulk
10-07-2020, 04:22 AM
Camel related vocabulary that are of Semitic origin from the paper:







Considering the Rendille also have these terms and are mostly camel herders unlike their Borana or Samburu neighbors strengthen the case that perhaps camels were introduced in modern Somaliland, proto-Somaal speakers whether affected directly by South Arabians or indirectly via the Afar were taught camel domestication and camel-related Semitic terms?

Also the Semitic lineages we find among the Somalis like J1 and T-M70 have appropriate tmrca's with the Arabians that date back to the time period that could have been when camels were introduced.T-Y45591 for example has a tmrca of 3000 ybp & J-Y178103 has a tmrca of 2400 ybp.Plus we already have very minor evidence of a Yemenite presence not only in the coast of Sanaag but also inland in modern Gabiley district and between Hargeisa & Berbera.


https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1007%2Fs10437-015-9184-9/MediaObjects/10437_2015_9184_Fig3_HTML.gif?as=webp

Yeah, dromedary camels were domesticated around this time period as well, so it couldn't be a simple coincidence here at all:

In addition, despite clearly belonging to a common population extending from North Africa to Southwest Asia, populations from isolated montane regions in the south of the Arabian Peninsula showed slight genetic distinctions. Here, the geographic accessibility of the regions thus seems to have also somewhat limited the extent of the homogenizing force. Surprisingly, the populations from South Arabia show minimal genetic distance to those populations from East Africa, and not North Arabia. It likely suggests an early introduction from South Arabia into East Africa by boats, through the Red Sea. When this took place is presently unknown, but could probably be inferred in the future using methods in statistical genomics exploiting genome-wide information (e.g., the over the 1 million SNPs identified while generating the two dromedary reference genomes) (12, 13).
https://www.pnas.org/content/113/24/6588