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View Full Version : Portuguese I1 - How common is it?



gabbobler
10-03-2020, 05:29 AM
Hi friends, I put my AncestryDNA data into Mosley's calculator and I ended up with I2a2a2~1. https://pastebin.com/hmQWYWvT (My data I put in).

https://scontent.fijd1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/120575147_2871440679787012_4699081973602607218_o.j pg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=H_i79m1wH0sAX9L-xzE&_nc_ht=scontent.fijd1-1.fna&oh=3e1935c6a67c78d42dae94db1c140b8f&oe=5F9D8522 (image of mosley results)

How common is this, is Mosley's accurate, and should I get my Y dna tested somewhere else for more accurate results?

deadly77
10-03-2020, 06:32 AM
Eupedia has I1 in Portugal at 2%, but if the Morley calculator is telling you that you're I2a2a2~1, it's most likely that you're not I1 and actually I2. In that case, Eupedia has percentage of I2/I2a at 1.5% with I2b at 3% - see here https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

The Morley tool generally works well and is a nice utility, but uses a reference tree from 2013 and hasn't been updated since, so sometimes it's a bit off but generally it gives the appropriate result. You could try the YSEQ cladefinder which uses the more up to date YFull tree and see if you get the same result https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

The AncestryDNA test includes a small number of Y-SNPs - in some cases it's possible to get a decent amount of subclades downstream, while for others it won't give much more than a basic haplogroup. To be fair to Ancestry, it's primarily an autosomal DNA test and they don't market their test as including Y-DNA, so think of it as bonus data. As for accurate, I find that when most people say accurate, then actually mean precise. So if the Morley and YSEQ cladefinder both tell you that you're I2, that's likely to be accurate. But if you want more detailed data on which subclade of I2 you fall under, you may need to take a Y-DNA test that's specifically designed for that (which the AncestryDNA test isn't).

I2 subforum is here https://anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?67-I2-M438

Caius Agrippa
10-03-2020, 11:13 AM
Where are you from in Portugal? My maternal grandfather had Island Portuguese paternal origin and he was I1. In his case it could be a Visigothic line or remnant of the Dutch/Flemish who were involved in the colonization of the islands.

JerryS.
10-03-2020, 12:29 PM
those damn Vikings got around. my paternal haplogroup is I1 but I have no recent ~250+ years Scandinavian ancestry. Even Sicily has about 5% I1 Y haplogroup.

gabbobler
10-03-2020, 03:14 PM
Eupedia has I1 in Portugal at 2%, but if the Morley calculator is telling you that you're I2a2a2~1, it's most likely that you're not I1 and actually I2. In that case, Eupedia has percentage of I2/I2a at 1.5% with I2b at 3% - see here https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

The Morley tool generally works well and is a nice utility, but uses a reference tree from 2013 and hasn't been updated since, so sometimes it's a bit off but generally it gives the appropriate result. You could try the YSEQ cladefinder which uses the more up to date YFull tree and see if you get the same result https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

The AncestryDNA test includes a small number of Y-SNPs - in some cases it's possible to get a decent amount of subclades downstream, while for others it won't give much more than a basic haplogroup. To be fair to Ancestry, it's primarily an autosomal DNA test and they don't market their test as including Y-DNA, so think of it as bonus data. As for accurate, I find that when most people say accurate, then actually mean precise. So if the Morley and YSEQ cladefinder both tell you that you're I2, that's likely to be accurate. But if you want more detailed data on which subclade of I2 you fall under, you may need to take a Y-DNA test that's specifically designed for that (which the AncestryDNA test isn't).

I2 subforum is here https://anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?67-I2-M438

I've made a brutal mistake. It's actually I1a2a2. Check the photograph in the link. I also get I-S2078 in cladefinder. http://prntscr.com/ushjvu

gabbobler
10-03-2020, 03:15 PM
Where are you from in Portugal? My maternal grandfather had Island Portuguese paternal origin and he was I1. In his case it could be a Visigothic line or remnant of the Dutch/Flemish who were involved in the colonization of the islands.

Northern Portugal. Montalegre, Vila Real, Tras os Montes to be exact.

spruithean
10-03-2020, 07:22 PM
Hi friends, I put my AncestryDNA data into Mosley's calculator and I ended up with I2a2a2~1. https://pastebin.com/hmQWYWvT (My data I put in).

https://scontent.fijd1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/120575147_2871440679787012_4699081973602607218_o.j pg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=H_i79m1wH0sAX9L-xzE&_nc_ht=scontent.fijd1-1.fna&oh=3e1935c6a67c78d42dae94db1c140b8f&oe=5F9D8522 (image of mosley results)

How common is this, is Mosley's accurate, and should I get my Y dna tested somewhere else for more accurate results?

Morley predictor uses a rather old ISOGG tree and I1a2a2~1 (I1-L41) wouldn't be accurate. It looks like Morley predicts you to be I1-M253 right now. If you're interested in really figuring out which haplogroup your Y-chromosome falls under I would recommend Y-DNA testing at YSEQ or FTDNA, etc.

gabbobler
10-03-2020, 08:04 PM
Morley predictor uses a rather old ISOGG tree and I1a2a2~1 (I1-L41) wouldn't be accurate. It looks like Morley predicts you to be I1-M253 right now. If you're interested in really figuring out which haplogroup your Y-chromosome falls under I would recommend Y-DNA testing at YSEQ or FTDNA, etc.

Hmm okay. Do you think it is accurate in saying im part of I1-M253?

spruithean
10-03-2020, 08:07 PM
Hmm okay. Do you think it is accurate in saying im part of I1-M253?

It's probably fairly accurate, you're positive for M253 and several of the phyloequivalents, I've yet to see a modern I-M170 that's positive for only some of those and not all of them.

If you want to really confirm it the best way is a Y-DNA test.

digital_noise
10-03-2020, 09:08 PM
Also note that I1-M253 has a tmrca of 4600 years old. That’s a long time for people to move around and set up shop in lands far away from “home”

deadly77
10-11-2020, 06:39 PM
I've made a brutal mistake. It's actually I1a2a2. Check the photograph in the link. I also get I-S2078 in cladefinder. http://prntscr.com/ushjvu

Ah, ok. I didn't click on any of your links - I generally don't until I can see where those lead. Not accusing of anything malicious, just a bit extra paranoid on my part. Once you get more than 10 posts you can share images on here which is a little easier to follow.

However, Spruithean says you're positive for several of the SNPs on the I1 level and that's phylogenetically consistent, so you can be fairly sure that you are I1. In that regard, it's accurate, but perhaps not very precise (I find a lot of folks say one when they mean the other). In regard to where you are downstream of I1, that very much depends on what SNPs the Ancestry chip covers. It's not very comprehensive and to be fair to Ancestry, they don't market their test as providing you with this data. So think of it as a bonus. With the S2078+ result, there's less corroborating SNPs in the Ancestry chip at that level, and there are sometimes false positives (I have at least three in my Ancestry data). You should at least be seeing a positive result for Z63 in your test - that's at hg19 position 14401486 on chromosome 24 (what Ancestry labels as the Y chromosome in their raw data file) - if you're Z63+, you'll have T, if you're Z63-, you'll have C. If that matches up, you can be a lot more confident in the S2078+ result. Although as several others have said, if you want further refinement or validation, you're really going to need to take a more suitable Y-DNA test. But at least the Ancestry data has got you to a certain point.

gabbobler
10-11-2020, 07:02 PM
Ah, ok. I didn't click on any of your links - I generally don't until I can see where those lead. Not accusing of anything malicious, just a bit extra paranoid on my part. Once you get more than 10 posts you can share images on here which is a little easier to follow.

However, Spruithean says you're positive for several of the SNPs on the I1 level and that's phylogenetically consistent, so you can be fairly sure that you are I1. In that regard, it's accurate, but perhaps not very precise (I find a lot of folks say one when they mean the other). In regard to where you are downstream of I1, that very much depends on what SNPs the Ancestry chip covers. It's not very comprehensive and to be fair to Ancestry, they don't market their test as providing you with this data. So think of it as a bonus. With the S2078+ result, there's less corroborating SNPs in the Ancestry chip at that level, and there are sometimes false positives (I have at least three in my Ancestry data). You should at least be seeing a positive result for Z63 in your test - that's at hg19 position 14401486 on chromosome 24 (what Ancestry labels as the Y chromosome in their raw data file) - if you're Z63+, you'll have T, if you're Z63-, you'll have C. If that matches up, you can be a lot more confident in the S2078+ result. Although as several others have said, if you want further refinement or validation, you're really going to need to take a more suitable Y-DNA test. But at least the Ancestry data has got you to a certain point.

I have I1-Z63 as an avaliable panel.

deadly77
10-11-2020, 07:18 PM
I have I1-Z63 as an avaliable panel.

Yes, that's what the YSEQ cladefinder is designed to do - direct you to the appropriate panel test at YSEQ, which is the I-Z63 panel. My recommendation was that you should check your AncestryDNA results for Z63 (I checked mine and Z63 is on their chip) - if you have positive results for both Z63 and S2078, you can be fairly confident. If you have positive result for S2078 and a negative result for Z63, you can be less confident in the S2078 result (although still I1).

The YSEQ panel is a relatively inexpensive way of figuring out where downstream of I-S2078 you are, and YSEQ are a good company for Y-DNA testing. The panel only tests against the known tree and doesn't give you any of your novel variants that tests such as the Big Y, YElite or WGS will do. But all of those latter tests are considerably more expensive. It very much depends on individual interest and resources. Have a read of the options, consider your budget and what you want to find out. If the question is just "am I really I1?" the answer is has most likely already been answered in the affirmative from the AncestryDNA test. If the question is where you fit in below I1 or I-S2078, that's going to need something further than the AncestryDNA test.

gabbobler
10-13-2020, 02:22 AM
Yes, that's what the YSEQ cladefinder is designed to do - direct you to the appropriate panel test at YSEQ, which is the I-Z63 panel. My recommendation was that you should check your AncestryDNA results for Z63 (I checked mine and Z63 is on their chip) - if you have positive results for both Z63 and S2078, you can be fairly confident. If you have positive result for S2078 and a negative result for Z63, you can be less confident in the S2078 result (although still I1).

The YSEQ panel is a relatively inexpensive way of figuring out where downstream of I-S2078 you are, and YSEQ are a good company for Y-DNA testing. The panel only tests against the known tree and doesn't give you any of your novel variants that tests such as the Big Y, YElite or WGS will do. But all of those latter tests are considerably more expensive. It very much depends on individual interest and resources. Have a read of the options, consider your budget and what you want to find out. If the question is just "am I really I1?" the answer is has most likely already been answered in the affirmative from the AncestryDNA test. If the question is where you fit in below I1 or I-S2078, that's going to need something further than the AncestryDNA test.

Thank you. I'll check out the Big Y test, but its quite expensive. Any cheaper alternatives?

deadly77
10-13-2020, 06:23 PM
Thank you. I'll check out the Big Y test, but its quite expensive. Any cheaper alternatives?

The Big Y is expensive (especially in my opinion for what you get), but it is the best selling Y-DNA specific test on the market. The test itself has been improved considerably, but the main benefits have always been the Y-DNA projects that FTDNA hosts (generally run by volunteer admins rather than FTDNA themselves) and the largest Y-DNA database of commercial testers. For the expensive concern, it's often on sale and there are options for spreading the cost by buying the test in increments - portions of the Y-STR markers and then opting for the Big Y portion as a later upgrade. it does work out less expensive in the long run to do it in one go.

The most comparable test to the Big Y is the YElite from Full Genomes Corp. This is generally priced a lower than the Big Y, but there are a few other benefits - you don't have to pay extra to access the raw data in your BAM file (FTDNA charges $100 extra for this) and the assay captures your mitochondrial DNA - the Big Y does this as well, but FTDNA strips this data. It might not read every part of your mtDNA, since it's not specifically targeted for that, but in my case the YElite read all of my mtDNA. The main disadvantage is missing out on FTDNA's large Y-DNA database and you can't transfer your results, so you might be a bit more reliant on third party analysis (eg. YFull). FGC provide a good data package, but perhaps it's not the easiest to follow for a less experienced customer.

Better than both of these tests are the whole genome sequencing (WGS) tests, which scan all of your DNA - Y chromosome, mitochondrial DNA and autosomal chromosomes in good detail, while the Big Y and YElite are Y-enrichment tests. The best commercial WGS available are from YSEQ and Full Genomes Corporation who provide a good quality product, decent turnaround times and good data options for processing. However, both of these are more expensive than the Big Y, but you're getting a lot more for your money. Like the YElite, there's a lot of data which can be pretty daunting although third party analysis can help with the Y and mt analysis. I'd say the tools for autosomal interpretation haven't yet caught up. Also, like the YElite, you're missing out on the largest Y-DNA database at FTDNA, which is the main disadvantage. There are some lower cost WGS options out there - Dante Labs offer a WGS which is less expensive than the YSEQ and FGC WGS - and also the Big Y - but there's a fair bit of mixed opinion out there on turnaround times, data availability and quality. Some people have had positive experiences testing WGS with Dante, others considerably less so. There are a few other providers out there starting to offer WGS, but several of them are "too new" to know much about how reliable they are. Stay away from the low read depth (ie, 0.4x) WGS - often very cheap, but also very useless.

Ultimately it comes down to what your interest level is and how much you're willing to spend - and everyone is different in that regard. Costs will continue to come down if now is not the time, but that just keeps you where you are right now.