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Farroukh
01-07-2021, 05:04 AM
Dear Armalite,
The best way for you is to test your Y-DNA again at FTDNA.
You can start with 12 markers and then upgrade them step by step up to BigY700.
You can order the cheapest YDNA12 test joining Magyar DNA Project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Hungarian_Magyar

Alf
01-07-2021, 11:33 PM
Yes it will be possible to order a full phologenetic analysis but it is quite expensive. It is my intention because it is very important and I am very interested in it, but I have to save so much money.
My huge desire is to be able to connect the archaeological ages with the migration of my paternal bloodline. To determine what kind of culture they belonged to in a given historical period and when and when they became part of the Hungarian society in Transylvania
But as a first step, I would really like to know if the current E-ft44177 was really created in Asia Minor.
And did my ancestors, indeed, belong to the community of sea peoples of this or some other culture?
These questions are very interested for me for now.

How did you come to test for FGC44177 at YSEQ? Did you do the V13 downstream test? I suggest you contact rafc and asked him to comment on the origin of this sub group?

Huban
01-09-2021, 08:24 PM
Thank you very much for your advice! But unfortunately I can't upload my results because ysex didn't give raw data. And I don’t belong to any of the threads mentioned because they all became negative for me. If you know what I mean.

Hi. FGC44177 is not part of the YSEQ's SNP Pack, as far as I can see atm. And as you say you know you are negative for downstreams so it seems to me you did YSEQ WGS?? If so, contact Krahn(s) say that you want to release the results to YFull, then register there, wait for analysis and pay a small fee after.. Or you tested just the individual SNP's?

armalite
01-10-2021, 03:06 PM
Hi. FGC44177 is not part of the YSEQ's SNP Pack, as far as I can see atm. And as you say you know you are negative for downstreams so it seems to me you did YSEQ WGS?? If so, contact Krahn(s) say that you want to release the results to YFull, then register there, wait for analysis and pay a small fee after.. Or you tested just the individual SNP's?

42443

Thanks for the advice. So far, I didn’t know how to ask yfull to upload my results. I will write to the Krahn on this matter.

armalite
01-10-2021, 03:10 PM
How did you come to test for FGC44177 at YSEQ? Did you do the V13 downstream test? I suggest you contact rafc and asked him to comment on the origin of this sub group?

Hello!

I dont know what is downstream test and what is rafc. Sorry. I attach my ysec test result screenshot.42444

armalite
01-10-2021, 03:17 PM
Dear Armalite,
The best way for you is to test your Y-DNA again at FTDNA.
You can start with 12 markers and then upgrade them step by step up to BigY700.
You can order the cheapest YDNA12 test joining Magyar DNA Project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Hungarian_Magyar

Hello, thank you for your advice. I dont want to test at FTDNA because they cant show something new. I have already joined magyar dna project and other projects for 2 years.

Huban
01-10-2021, 03:53 PM
Thanks for the advice. So far, I didn’t know how to ask yfull to upload my results. I will write to the Krahn on this matter.

You're welcome. I see, you did YSEQ's WGS just like me and also another Hungarian (YF11315) at YFull. It is really simple, you send a short message stating your ID and that you want to release your results to YFull. YFull will send you account info later. It's good to have another Hungarian NGS. Is it 10th, 11th (I'm not sure what ethnically one family is) Hungarian E-V13 NGS I think.

Huban
01-10-2021, 04:00 PM
If you have some STR's you can send them to me via PM, I'll compare them with other Hungarian STR's, generally they are very diverse, only some have close matches. YFull will eventually do the STR's anyway.

Alf
01-10-2021, 06:05 PM
Hello!

I dont know what is downstream test and what is rafc. Sorry. I attach my ysec test result screenshot.

Thomas Krahn at YSEQ will be able to clarify what test you took. rafc is a member of this forum who has posted in this thread.

armalite
01-10-2021, 07:11 PM
If you have some STR's you can send them to me via PM, I'll compare them with other Hungarian STR's, generally they are very diverse, only some have close matches. YFull will eventually do the STR's anyway.

Thank you very much for your advice, these will help a lot!
Unfortunately, I didn’t get a STR, but then I’ll follow the steps you suggested. I hope the Astrids will respond soon.42458

Farroukh
01-10-2021, 07:14 PM
Armalite, I understand your case, try to upload your data to Yfull.com

armalite
01-10-2021, 07:18 PM
Thomas Krahn at YSEQ will be able to clarify what test you took. rafc is a member of this forum who has posted in this thread.

Thank you very much for the explanation, it's clear now. I will definitely take steps towards the Krahns and if there is a result, I will write to rafc.

rafc
01-10-2021, 10:59 PM
Thank you very much for the explanation, it's clear now. I will definitely take steps towards the Krahns and if there is a result, I will write to rafc.

Hi Armalite. FGC44177 is an interesting result. We also have a Hungarian in that group at FTDNA, but he is deeper under FGC44175. If I understand your screenshot correctly you don't have a result for that SNP (question mark). If you click the "2" next to it, can you see the results for the SNPs on the next level? Are they negative or do they have a question mark also?

armalite
01-11-2021, 12:17 AM
Hi Armalite. FGC44177 is an interesting result. We also have a Hungarian in that group at FTDNA, but he is deeper under FGC44175. If I understand your screenshot correctly you don't have a result for that SNP (question mark). If you click the "2" next to it, can you see the results for the SNPs on the next level? Are they negative or do they have a question mark also?

Hi rafc! Im very glad for your help! I talked to the Astrids before, they explained everything. They said I could only learn more about me with a full sequencing at the moment, I don’t have a deeper result with this SNP yet. If I understood correctly, I have no earlier than 4000 years connection with the currently known subclades. So it won't be with that Hungarian either.

Farroukh
01-11-2021, 02:20 AM
If I understand it right they propose to test several downstream subclades under E-FGC44177, E-V13 snp pack limited down to FGC44177.

rafc
01-11-2021, 10:57 AM
Hi rafc! Im very glad for your help! I talked to the Astrids before, they explained everything. They said I could only learn more about me with a full sequencing at the moment, I don’t have a deeper result with this SNP yet. If I understood correctly, I have no earlier than 4000 years connection with the currently known subclades. So it won't be with that Hungarian either.

Ah, so you only tested SNP, that explains. For your information, the other Hungarian is under BY6043, which seems available to test at YSEQ as a single SNP. This could be a cheap way to see if you are on the same branch as him or not. Off course ideal would be if you would do an NGS test. I think the cheapest would be Big Y 700 at FTDNA, but if you decide to go that way it would be better to way for a new sale.

armalite
01-11-2021, 11:35 AM
Ah, so you only tested SNP, that explains. For your information, the other Hungarian is under BY6043, which seems available to test at YSEQ as a single SNP. This could be a cheap way to see if you are on the same branch as him or not. Off course ideal would be if you would do an NGS test. I think the cheapest would be Big Y 700 at FTDNA, but if you decide to go that way it would be better to way for a new sale.

I plan everything you suggested, but I have to save money. I don’t want to step one by one, I’m planning a full test.

MacUalraig
01-11-2021, 12:11 PM
Ah, so you only tested SNP, that explains. For your information, the other Hungarian is under BY6043, which seems available to test at YSEQ as a single SNP. This could be a cheap way to see if you are on the same branch as him or not. Off course ideal would be if you would do an NGS test. I think the cheapest would be Big Y 700 at FTDNA, but if you decide to go that way it would be better to way for a new sale.

WGS from Nebula Genomics is a better deal and gets you more data (just cancel the 'subscription' bit as soon as the data comes in). And there is Dante to consider but a bit unreliable.

Scythoslav
01-12-2021, 09:35 PM
WGS from Nebula Genomics is a better deal and gets you more data (just cancel the 'subscription' bit as soon as the data comes in). And there is Dante to consider but a bit unreliable.

I'm currently waiting for my results from Nebula. I'll be able to figure out my subclade of E-V13 using my raw data from nebula genomics correct? I mean they test your entire Y-Chromosome but is there a website I can plug in the raw data? Thanks

dosas
01-12-2021, 09:54 PM
I'm currently waiting for my results from Nebula. I'll be able to figure out my subclade of E-V13 using my raw data from nebula genomics correct? I mean they test your entire Y-Chromosome but is there a website I can plug in the raw data? Thanks

You can upload your .CRAM file straight into YFULL, if that's what you mean, by providing them with a link.

MacUalraig
01-12-2021, 10:03 PM
I'm currently waiting for my results from Nebula. I'll be able to figure out my subclade of E-V13 using my raw data from nebula genomics correct? I mean they test your entire Y-Chromosome but is there a website I can plug in the raw data? Thanks

As well as uploading to YFull as already suggested you can analyse it yourself, easy way is to load the cram file/VCF into a genome browser like IGV and check the SNPs off manually.

Bane
03-19-2021, 01:59 PM
Does someone have a suggestion about a source based on which it would be possible to determine ratio between Z5018 and Z5017 in Southern Italy?
I mean like some DNA project or maybe some scientific paper or any other way which would be useful in that sense.

Riverman
03-19-2021, 02:44 PM
From FTDNA, branches, second number is downstream participants:

E-Z5018:
Italy 1 25 25 5.11%
E-Z5017:
Italy 1 18 18 5.59%

For comparison Germany:
E-Z5018:
Germany 1 57 57 11.66%
E-Z5017:
Germany 0 39 39 12.11%

and Bulgaria:
E-Z5018:
Bulgaria 1 15 15 3.07%
E-Z5017:
Bulgaria 0 22 22 6.83%

This is not really what you wanted I guess, but I think its interesting that the distribution and ratio is pretty similar in Germany and Italy, in both cases no big difference, just Z5018 somewhat more common in the Western countries, while Z5017 is more common in the Balkans (Bulgaria, Greece, Albania). This is Italy as a whole of course.

Bane
03-19-2021, 03:24 PM
This is not really what you wanted I guess, but I think its interesting that the distribution and ratio is pretty similar in Germany and Italy, in both cases no big difference, just Z5018 somewhat more common in the Western countries, while Z5017 is more common in the Balkans (Bulgaria, Greece, Albania). This is Italy as a whole of course.

I'm somewhat surprised regarding Germany. There were some discussions couple of years ago from which I remembered higher ratio in favor of Z5018.
Now while I'm writing this I remember several Schneiderhans which are Z5017 are tested (link (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Schneiderhans?iframe=ycolorized)). But even when they are subtracted remaining number of Z5017 is higher than I thought.

I'm trying to make something out of data from Croatian islands: Genetic heritage of Croatians in the Southeastern European gene pool—Y chromosome analysis of the Croatian continental and Island population (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.22876). These are the results: Tree figure link (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/2b79ae8c-7f6c-4dba-b2e3-64f96ec2d6a6/ajhb22876-fig-0002-m.jpg)
This study has supplementary table #4 which contains haplotypes which seem to indicate considerably higher presence of Z5018 compared to Z5017.

Another conclusion I got from this study is that predominant haplogroups among Illyrians seem to be E-Z5018 and J-L283 (which should not ne surprising).
Eventually, I started thinking about a theory about two distinct main routes through which E-V13 came to Balkans. Eastern lets call it Daco-Thracian route where frequencies of Z5018 and Z5017 do not differ significantly, and, Western lets call it Illyrian route where Z5018 should be predominant.
The Daco-Thracian route supposedly went through Wallachia and the Illyrian route should've passed through Pannonia.

However, there are details which do not quite fit into this two-routes-theory. And if Z5017 is so high in Germany then it makes it even worse.

Riverman
03-19-2021, 07:47 PM
I'm somewhat surprised regarding Germany. There were some discussions couple of years ago from which I remembered higher ratio in favor of Z5018.
Now while I'm writing this I remember several Schneiderhans which are Z5017 are tested (link (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Schneiderhans?iframe=ycolorized)). But even when they are subtracted remaining number of Z5017 is higher than I thought.

I'm trying to make something out of data from Croatian islands: Genetic heritage of Croatians in the Southeastern European gene pool—Y chromosome analysis of the Croatian continental and Island population (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.22876). These are the results: Tree figure link (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/2b79ae8c-7f6c-4dba-b2e3-64f96ec2d6a6/ajhb22876-fig-0002-m.jpg)
This study has supplementary table #4 which contains haplotypes which seem to indicate considerably higher presence of Z5018 compared to Z5017.

Another conclusion I got from this study is that predominant haplogroups among Illyrians seem to be E-Z5018 and J-L283 (which should not ne surprising).
Eventually, I started thinking about a theory about two distinct main routes through which E-V13 came to Balkans. Eastern lets call it Daco-Thracian route where frequencies of Z5018 and Z5017 do not differ significantly, and, Western lets call it Illyrian route where Z5018 should be predominant.
The Daco-Thracian route supposedly went through Wallachia and the Illyrian route should've passed through Pannonia.

However, there are details which do not quite fit into this two-routes-theory. And if Z5017 is so high in Germany then it makes it even worse.

Would be great if someone could make more out of it. Some data seems to be somewhat skewed, because I know from Serbian sources that Z5018 should be, overall, well represented, yet on FTDNA the difference is striking:

5017

Serbia 0 9 9 2.80%

5018

Serbia 0 2 2 0.41%

Wonder what caused this. Probably some families testing for Serbia and this wasn't representative by chance.

Concerning splits in general, it looks to me as if the first major accumulation and expansion of the E-V13 group happened together, as a unity, but then, afterwards, not based on ancient clan groups, they split up into different clans and tribes which dispersed. This fits into my model I made in the other thread:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16757-E-V13-entered-Greece-with-Illyrians-and-Dorian-invasions&p=757524&viewfull=1#post757524

The first two stages happened without a big, lasting split for the vast majority of lineages. Then, only in the third and fourth phase the splits lasted and the groups didn't met again. This is why we end up with most major clades everywhere (like Z5018 and Z5017 among so many others), but the subclades being, with small exceptions explained by concrete historical events, pretty strict after the EIA. Imagine it like an ethnicity, with their whole variation, split not along geographical or clan definitions, but more randomly into 4 groups, moving in all directions, so carrying most of their variation whereever they go. But they don't meet again for 3.000 years. That's pretty much the story of E-V13. Some variation and lineages got lost in one area, but survived in another, while new subclades popped up. But the basic, original variation, was largely carried at least in three directions: West, South West and South East. It thinned out to the North and East from the start, so this was a less massive movement and more of a trickling event.

This situation explains why we can't even learn all too much from basic variants, because they might have distributed from the original core rather randomly and survived in place X, but went extinct in place Y. Doesn't tell you all that much about the original homeland.

How this relates to the differentiation between Thracians and Illyrians in particular, two main spreaders which must have had a high proportion of E-V13 carriers both in the Iron Age, is open to debate. Its possible that Illyrian was more infiltrated rather than created by the E-V13 core, but that is absolutely uncertain, they could very well have come from the same root.

Hawk
03-19-2021, 09:03 PM
It all depends where E-V13 originates from initially.

Because, Cetina is not excluded, they could have migrated into Central-Southern Balkans during Early Bronze Age (North Macedonia + Northern Greece) and form the Proto-Thracians and Proto-Greeks.

Or the 2nd option somewhere more North forming Proto-Thracians and perhaps the various Danubian tribes which heavily influenced Illyrians as attested by archeologists.

Riverman
03-19-2021, 09:32 PM
It all depends where E-V13 originates from initially.

Because, Cetina is not excluded, they could have migrated into Central-Southern Balkans during Early Bronze Age (North Macedonia + Northern Greece) and form the Proto-Thracians and Proto-Greeks.

Or the 2nd option somewhere more North forming Proto-Thracians and perhaps the various Danubian tribes which heavily influenced Illyrians as attested by archeologists.

To me it seems there is no way around Gáva-Holigrady as the core and its derivatives as the main spreader. Just recently I read about how big the impact and role of Belegiš-Gava was in Northern Serbia. That really turned things upside down.
The question is rather how far that influence went and whether they brought Illyrian or, similar to Dorian Greeks, got influential but did adopt the local language.
That's the remaining question concerning Illyrians, especially since they might not have had the same impact in some later Illyrian strongholds.
But Northern Serbia, they rolled over it...
Its really pretty similar to the Slavic expansion from both sides of the Carparthians.

This article in German is highly recommended:

The influence of the Gava-Belegiš II cultural group was
predominant in the Serbian Danube area during the Late Bronze Age.

This is key:

In der Spätbronzezeit gerät der serbische Teil des Do-naugebiets unter den starken Einfluss des expandierenden Gava-Komplexes. Dieser Prozess verläuft kontinuierlich in den Nekropolen der Mittelbronzezeit der Dubovac- und der Belegiš-Gruppe. Dabei gehen die früher charakteristischen Urnenformen verloren und auch die Verzierungen ändern sich. Sowohl die für die Dubovac-Gruppe kennzeichnen-den ornamentalen Motive, die aus Stempelmustern, Riefen und Einkerbungen bestehen, als auch die Einkerbungen und unechten Schnurmuster der Belegiš-Gruppe gehen ver-loren. Kannelierte und feinpolierte schwarze Keramik, die für den Gava-Komplex typisch ist, wird häufig. Zu diesen Neuerungen gesellen sich zahlreiche Bronzehorte.

The exact same thing happened in Bulgaria with the Fluted Ware Horizon! The same influence, the same impact, on both sides of the Carpathians and from the original centre of Gáva-Holigrady. However, in the West the transition to the fully developed Iron Age was less continuous in my opinion, which leaves the option of Belegiš-Gava being Thracian, but later assimilated.

http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576_0x002debf2.pdf

vasil
03-19-2021, 09:34 PM
It all depends where E-V13 originates from initially.

Because, Cetina is not excluded, they could have migrated into Central-Southern Balkans during Early Bronze Age (North Macedonia + Northern Greece) and form the Proto-Thracians and Proto-Greeks.

Or the 2nd option somewhere more North forming Proto-Thracians and perhaps the various Danubian tribes which heavily influenced Illyrians as attested by archeologists.

I have a theory maybe its cringe but i think we have been mistaken by thinking the thracians came from east of the carpathians and the Multi-cordoned ware people who came to the eastern balkans were not the thracians but the helleno-brygians and the thracians are a mixture of whatever was left over from the helleno-brygians and a thraco-illyrian population coming from the western balkans which would very well explain E-V13 and R-Y5587 in them in which case the Dacians would also be a part of that population but they maybe moved from panonia or northern serbia into transylvania and then we have some Italo-Celtic like ghost population in the westernmost balkans. What do you think?

Hawk
03-20-2021, 08:24 AM
I have a theory maybe its cringe but i think we have been mistaken by thinking the thracians came from east of the carpathians and the Multi-cordoned ware people who came to the eastern balkans were not the thracians but the helleno-brygians and the thracians are a mixture of whatever was left over from the helleno-brygians and a thraco-illyrian population coming from the western balkans which would very well explain E-V13 and R-Y5587 in them in which case the Dacians would also be a part of that population but they maybe moved from panonia or northern serbia into transylvania and then we have some Italo-Celtic like ghost population in the westernmost balkans. What do you think?

Another candidate IMO which shouldn't be eliminated yet is Tumuli Culture from the Alps, during Middle Bronze Age they flooded the Carpathians mixing with Gava and similar cultures, and mixed with the natives there and during Late Bronze Age they flooded Balkans and Anatolia. If we go by the logic that we should find events and candidates during specific timeline, then it could make sense.

Harry Mountain noted that Dacian-Getae were heavily influenced by Tumuli-Urnfield Culture during Late Bronze Age. So, Thracians extremely likely as well, mixing with the natives around Danube and East Balkans.

They were nomadic pastoralist warriors and metal-workers.

Riverman
03-20-2021, 12:19 PM
Another candidate IMO which shouldn't be eliminated yet is Tumuli Culture from the Alps, during Middle Bronze Age they flooded the Carpathians mixing with Gava and similar cultures, and mixed with the natives there and during Late Bronze Age they flooded Balkans and Anatolia. If we go by the logic that we should find events and candidates during specific timeline, then it could make sense.

Harry Mountain noted that Dacian-Getae were heavily influenced by Tumuli-Urnfield Culture during Late Bronze Age. So, Thracians extremely likely as well, mixing with the natives around Danube and East Balkans.

They were nomadic pastoralist warriors and metal-workers.

The main argument against this is, that with such a source group, the rise and frequency in the West should have been much stronger than in the East, but the contrary seems to be true in the Iron Age. We'll see, but it seems just much less likely, also the timing doesn't fit and the main Urnfield group influencing Thraco-Dacians was Gava-related, rather than Alpine.

Huban
03-23-2021, 03:51 PM
As I've said all those E-V13 belong to Pšeničevo culture, part of Babadag-Pšeničevo complex which leads to Gava ultimately.

What is interesting is that actually Gava urns resembled the proto-Villanovan urns.

Nevertheless I believe only clades such as E-CTS9320 and E-FGC11450 and various others are related to this.

There are various other clades which have MBA diversity in the Balkans and are most likely related to Sea Peoples.

I believe there is clear genetic, archeological evidence to suggest that Sea Peoples loaded with E-V13 were those who conquered the Troy. And that after them, some other Thracian E-V13 also spent time there.

I took a detailed look at German E-V13 clades. There are two major groups. One, larger in the Western part closely follows the Limes Germanicus, they literally draw the border of Limes Germanicus. These are mostly Roman soldiers obviously and they cannot be anything else. Most of them do not have matches in the SE Europe yet. They will have them surely as more people are tested.

The other group in the Eastern parts is mostly composed of some non-Balkan clades and they likely have some distant Carpathian connection.

There seems to be very little of E-V13 in Germany in between of these.

Huban
03-23-2021, 04:10 PM
https://i.ibb.co/4pP4LBr/German-E-V13.jpg

I need to add some more. Started adding some neighboring V13 too.

https://martinmilinski.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/limes-germanicus-german-map.jpg

As you see that concentration around Frankfurt, see how it matches the Limes cline to the North of Nida, Roman town. There you have some heavy diversity of E-V13 too.

Easterners who usually carry come clades of clear non-Balkan origin have SNP matches in Poles, in Carpathians and they are situated next to Sudetes mountains.

Point is, focal points for E-V13 origin and expansion are Balkans and Carpathians. Not Western Central Europe certainly.

Huban
03-23-2021, 04:37 PM
More to report. MJ12 labelled as "Thraco-Kimmerian" looks to have belonged to Babadag culture. The same or similar culture where two E-V13 from Kapitan Andreevo and one from Svilengrad were found. MJ12 actually did have some slight Cimmerian admixture too.

Troy VIIb1, first layer of destruction was filled with finds from Zimnicea-Plovdiv culture. This culture related to some others to the West such as Brnjica culture, occupied most of Bulgaria in late MBA and LBA. Elements of this culture reached the Peloponnesus as well.

It seems this complex of Zimnicea-Plovdiv corresponds well to E-BY5022 and E-Y3183. Some diversity of E-Y3183 in Albania/W.Balkans point towards Brnjica like connection.

Levantine E-BY5022 correspond nicely to Philistines IMO. And I remind you the pre-Thracian name of the Strymon river was Palaistinos.

Troy VIIb2 shows the presence of Pšeničevo people.

In all I would say that E-V13 or E-CTS1273 should show as a whole connection to the so-called Carpatho-Danubian archeological context. Some of its Northern elements, namely Monteoru, probably Ottomany became part of Eastern Urnfield complex in LBA/EIA. Or actually, they may have originated it. You saw one map Riverman posted earlier, which showed that the earliest urns were in those areas.

I took a really close look at E-FGC11457. Looking at SNP data, especially from its early branches, and based on its basal diversity this hg cannot be of Balkan origin despite having various clades there. Probably Carpathian but more positioned to the West of CTS9320.

Aspar
03-23-2021, 05:07 PM
As I've said all those E-V13 belong to Pšeničevo culture, part of Babadag-Pšeničevo complex which leads to Gava ultimately.

What is interesting is that actually Gava urns resembled the proto-Villanovan urns.

Nevertheless I believe only clades such as E-CTS9320 and E-FGC11450 and various others are related to this.

There are various other clades which have MBA diversity in the Balkans and are most likely related to Sea Peoples.

I believe there is clear genetic, archeological evidence to suggest that Sea Peoples loaded with E-V13 were those who conquered the Troy. And that after them, some other Thracian E-V13 also spent time there.

I took a detailed look at German E-V13 clades. There are two major groups. One, larger in the Western part closely follows the Limes Germanicus, they literally draw the border of Limes Germanicus. These are mostly Roman soldiers obviously and they cannot be anything else. Most of them do not have matches in the SE Europe yet. They will have them surely as more people are tested.

The other group in the Eastern parts is mostly composed of some non-Balkan clades and they likely have some distant Carpathian connection.

There seems to be very little of E-V13 in Germany in between of these.

What cultures do you think are in question to relation of these MBA arrivals in the Balkans?

Edit: Nevermind, I see now you've mentioned Zimničea-Plovdiv group as a possible candidate.

I generally agree with you.
Gava Culture indeed had great influence in the forming of Babadag-Pšeničevo complex but also influenced Belegiš-Paračin-Brnjica complex. Both these complexes migrated southwards only in the transitional period, that is the beginning of EIA.
So for some MBA arrivals from the north of the Balkans you would need some other cultures that existed during that time to explain such migrations but generally the region around the Carpathians is again the best approximation for these MBA arrivals.
In the south Balkans after the turbulence of the EBA, there was a relative peace that lasted through the MBA.
However there are some instances that there were some Carpathian and Danubian influences during the MBA in Thrace and Central/Eastern Macedonia. Namely the incised originally encrusted ornaments of zimničea-plovdiv group that also appear in Central/Eastern Macedonia have parallels and origins from groups in the north such as Encrusted Pottery Culture and Verbicoara.

ShpataEMadhe
03-23-2021, 05:11 PM
I'm somewhat surprised regarding Germany. There were some discussions couple of years ago from which I remembered higher ratio in favor of Z5018.
Now while I'm writing this I remember several Schneiderhans which are Z5017 are tested (link (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Schneiderhans?iframe=ycolorized)). But even when they are subtracted remaining number of Z5017 is higher than I thought.

I'm trying to make something out of data from Croatian islands: Genetic heritage of Croatians in the Southeastern European gene pool—Y chromosome analysis of the Croatian continental and Island population (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.22876). These are the results: Tree figure link (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/2b79ae8c-7f6c-4dba-b2e3-64f96ec2d6a6/ajhb22876-fig-0002-m.jpg)
This study has supplementary table #4 which contains haplotypes which seem to indicate considerably higher presence of Z5018 compared to Z5017.

Another conclusion I got from this study is that predominant haplogroups among Illyrians seem to be E-Z5018 and J-L283 (which should not ne surprising).
Eventually, I started thinking about a theory about two distinct main routes through which E-V13 came to Balkans. Eastern lets call it Daco-Thracian route where frequencies of Z5018 and Z5017 do not differ significantly, and, Western lets call it Illyrian route where Z5018 should be predominant.
The Daco-Thracian route supposedly went through Wallachia and the Illyrian route should've passed through Pannonia.

However, there are details which do not quite fit into this two-routes-theory. And if Z5017 is so high in Germany then it makes it even worse.

Whichever line is more frequent in germany is likely related to illyrians as they were almost neighbours for many years and i believe some balkan i1 is early germanic-illyrian instead of ostrogothic. However, over the last 100-200 years many people have moved to germany so must analyse each case of v13 carefully

Huban
03-23-2021, 05:13 PM
What cultures do you think are in question to relation of these MBA arrivals in the Balkans?

Read my post above. :) Zimnica-Plovdiv or Cerkovna group. It was related to Brnjica/Mediana which we find in the Western Balkans too. Troy VIIb1, first layer of destruction shows heavy Zimnicea-Plovdiv presence. And they reached the Peloponnesus as well.

On the map you posted some time ago this culture occupied most of Bulgaria in LBA, that was just prior to the BA collapse.

As far as I know Zimnica-Plovdiv should be related to Tei, Monteoru, Verbicioara, Vatin, Paraćin as well. Except in the case of Vatin some other influences were stronger.

They are not related to Dubovac/Girla Mare culture who were non-IE people originating around Lake Balaton. But who, pushed by the Tumulus culture, migrated to NE Serbia/SW Romania.

Riverman
03-23-2021, 06:25 PM
As I've said all those E-V13 belong to Pšeničevo culture, part of Babadag-Pšeničevo complex which leads to Gava ultimately.

What is interesting is that actually Gava urns resembled the proto-Villanovan urns.

Nevertheless I believe only clades such as E-CTS9320 and E-FGC11450 and various others are related to this.

There are various other clades which have MBA diversity in the Balkans and are most likely related to Sea Peoples.

I believe there is clear genetic, archeological evidence to suggest that Sea Peoples loaded with E-V13 were those who conquered the Troy. And that after them, some other Thracian E-V13 also spent time there.

I took a detailed look at German E-V13 clades. There are two major groups. One, larger in the Western part closely follows the Limes Germanicus, they literally draw the border of Limes Germanicus. These are mostly Roman soldiers obviously and they cannot be anything else. Most of them do not have matches in the SE Europe yet. They will have them surely as more people are tested.

The other group in the Eastern parts is mostly composed of some non-Balkan clades and they likely have some distant Carpathian connection.

There seems to be very little of E-V13 in Germany in between of these.

Obviously I agree with the original core and source region being the Carpathian sphere, but I don't think the majority of the Western and South Western German haplotypes will be of more recent, Roman Age Balkan origin. The reason for this is related to what I wrote about the Eastern groups: I think the Western and Eastern groups largely reflect different Celtic and Old European (Alteuropäisch) or generally Thraco-Illyrian related people in Eastern Central Europe.
If you look at the Germanic push South, you can see that other Indoeuropean people, not just Celts (!), forming a semi-circle which got pushed in and South by the incoming Germanic tribes. At first the assimilation seems to have been low and selective, only later it increased, especially with the 2nd Lateinisation phase. Therefore I think that the Limes is indeed important, but not just because of bringing Balkan soldiers to the Rhine, that as well, don't get me wrong, but also or even primarily because of saving a regional variation which got pushed back and further reduced in the relative North by incoming Germanics. So I don't expect a large portion of the regional variation there being of more recent Balkan origin, but rather being colonists from Urnfield and especially Hallstatt times already.
E-V13 will be shown to have been established in South Western Germany latest in the La Tene period. The ratio of Iron Age : Roman Age subclades will be interesting to investigate, even more so with ancient DNA samples proving earlier or later incomers.

Compare your map with the Jastorf vs. La Tene distribution in Central Europe:
https://64.media.tumblr.com/e84a38713f10db73bffa97d5c92751b0/tumblr_inline_owti1pThE71tjxb3h_540.jpg

The borderline was there before the Romans build their wall. The Jastorf core zone is on average higher in Germanic core haplotypes, while having lower Celtic and other European frequencies. You see the nice distribution in South Western Germany and Bohemia-Southern-Poland-Slovakia. The Germanic expansion was like a wedge, with more of the regional variation surviving at its sides. Some pre-Germanic and pre-Slavic lineages are, for example, pretty high in Bohemia, which was however never settled by Romans.

capsian
03-23-2021, 08:26 PM
https://i.ibb.co/4pP4LBr/German-E-V13.jpg

I need to add some more. Started adding some neighboring V13 too.

https://martinmilinski.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/limes-germanicus-german-map.jpg

As you see that concentration around Frankfurt, see how it matches the Limes cline to the North of Nida, Roman town. There you have some heavy diversity of E-V13 too.

Easterners who usually carry come clades of clear non-Balkan origin have SNP matches in Poles, in Carpathians and they are situated next to Sudetes mountains.

Point is, focal points for E-V13 origin and expansion are Balkans and Carpathians. Not Western Central Europe certainly.

but i seen that there are ancient specimens from france germany and spain on haplogroup E-V13 that are between 6200 and 7000 years old . and sure ancestors of these ancient samples are of Balkan/Carpathians originated

Riverman
03-23-2021, 08:35 PM
but I seen that there are ancient specimens from france germany and spain on haplogroup E-V13 that are between 6,200 and 7,000 years old . and sure ancestors of these ancient samples are of Balkan/Carpathians originated

The Iberian E-V13 was most likely a dead end with most other E1b1b's being from different clades which either went extinct or survived on a low level. For modern E-V13 its practically all about the big Late Bronze Age founder effect which culminated in the Gáva-Holigrady culture and its descendants. To some degree this includes Hallstatt as well. Primarily the Eastern part, but with significant influences on the Western.

capsian
03-23-2021, 08:59 PM
The Iberian E-V13 was most likely a dead end with most other E1b1b's being from different clades which either went extinct or survived on a low level. For modern E-V13 its practically all about the big Late Bronze Age founder effect which culminated in the Gáva-Holigrady culture and its descendants. To some degree this includes Hallstatt as well. Primarily the Eastern part, but with significant influences on the Western.

where found Gáva-Holigrady culture

capsian
03-23-2021, 09:00 PM
The Iberian E-V13 was most likely a dead end with most other E1b1b's being from different clades which either went extinct or survived on a low level. For modern E-V13 its practically all about the big Late Bronze Age founder effect which culminated in the Gáva-Holigrady culture and its descendants. To some degree this includes Hallstatt as well. Primarily the Eastern part, but with significant influences on the Western.

yes found also E-V1039 + E-L19 in ibria but i think it s extinct

Hawk
03-23-2021, 09:21 PM
The Iberian E-V13 was most likely a dead end with most other E1b1b's being from different clades which either went extinct or survived on a low level. For modern E-V13 its practically all about the big Late Bronze Age founder effect which culminated in the Gáva-Holigrady culture and its descendants. To some degree this includes Hallstatt as well. Primarily the Eastern part, but with significant influences on the Western.

We should wait and see the terminal subclades of Micheslbergers E-M78.

If they result to be E-V13, it will even make sense based on cultural sphere they belonged, they were Mediterranean Cardium immigrants. They were wandering around.

Riverman
03-23-2021, 10:17 PM
where found Gáva-Holigrady culture

If you look at my stage model approach, the core was in the first stage red area.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16757-E-V13-entered-Greece-with-Illyrians-and-Dorian-invasions&p=757524&viewfull=1#post757524

But it expanded and influenced far beyond that. For example, we have a Gava highest quality pottery from Saxony and Saxony-Anhalt, from a context which suggests that the pot was transported with greatest care, from the Gava high end production centre to Eastern Germany. Its unlikely this was just a neutral prestige good, but rather suggests close ties, knowledge about the background of this product, ideological and religious connections, marital exchange networks, like in the context of an elite dowry. So there was a centre of Gava, but a sphere of influence and related pottery styles and archaeological groupings, running under different names in different regions, like Fluted Ware, Channelled Pottery and so on. In any case they reached and had a significant impact on the green stage two border of my model, but influencing far beyond, probably being known and at least individual specialists (metal workers, priests, traders etc.) and small clan groups might have wandered through the whole Urnfield sphere, its at least a distinct possibility.

Like in this article we see at least related stylistic elements of Gáva-Holigrady in major formations of the Lusatian culture, especially around Krakow:
https://www.academia.edu/1885677/Die_sp%C3%A4tbronzezeitlichen_Inventare_mit_kannel ierter_Keramik_in_westlichem_Kleinpolen_und_ihre_V erbindungen_mit_s%C3%BCdlichem_Teil_des_Karpatenbe ckens_Slovensk%C3%A1_archeol%C3%B3gia_53_2_219_236

The map on page 231 is very instructive (Abb. 8). His interpretation of Gava and Belegis II can be questioned, but here its necessary to have more genetic data, to pin the exact ethnic-genetic relationships of this complex of channelled wares down.

Also interesting:
https://www.academia.edu/2409522/E_Rung_Der_G%C3%A1va_Stil_

Look at the maps on the first page. He doesn't give the style too much importance, but his relativistic approach is just the usual in archaeology, especially at that time. If you read it carefully, and compare the results with newer studies, especially from the Balkans, its quite clear we deal with a people which had an impact. Obviously not every archaeological complex in which this Gava-influenced pottery appears must be "ethnic", surely not, I wouldn't go that far, but it gives us hints to as far as their networks reached, and they reached Germany, Poland, Ukraine, down to Turkey and Greece. This is very clear and the evidence is just growing and it would just fit perfectly with its timing. Of course I'm not just counting Gava in the narrow sense, but the whole complex of related ceramics, which, in my opinion, have a common source, with Gava being something like the short term technological peak in the LBA-EIA transition, but they influenced each other.

Here a finding from Sachsen-Anhalt, which shows how far and wide Gava-related products could make it:

In Sachsen-Anhalt gibt es zu den beiden Gefäßen keine direkten Vergleichsstücke. Sie wirken im Fundgebiet mit Keramik der Lausitzer Kultur fremd. Erst in der sogenannten Gáva-Kultur Nordostungarns finden sich sehr gute Parallelen vom Gräberfeld Szöreg, die es ermöglichen, die Kegelhalsterrine in das 12. Jh. v. Chr. zu datieren. In diesen kulturellen Kontext passt auch die Tasse mit ihrem tordierten Henkel. Solche Henkel sind an Gefäßen der Lausitzer Kultur selten anzutreffen (vor allem in Sachsen) und treten dann auch oft mit anderen Verzierungen und Applikationen auf, die in die gleiche geografische Richtung verweisen. Mit senkrechten Schmalriefen verzierte Gefäße - besonders Tassen - sind in Sachsen-Anhalt etwa zur selben Zeit anzutreffen - waagerechte Schmalriefen werden in Sachsen-Anhalt erst ab dem 10. Jh. v. Chr. zu einem typischen Verzierungselement an Gefäßkeramik der Lausitzer Kultur.
Wahrscheinlich wurden die Gefäße aus dem Nordosten Ungarns in das Siedlungsgebiet der Lausitzer Kultur importiert. Die fragile Fracht muss unter größter Sorgfalt nach Mitteldeutschland transportiert worden sein und muss eine besondere Bedeutung gehabt haben - vielleicht handelt es sich um Heiratsgut?

https://st.museum-digital.de/index.php?t=objekt&suinin=1&oges=16866

What fascinates me the most: This product appeared in the primary timing of the E-V13 split, around, 1200 BC, once more, even with the first highest quality finds of the Gava-related, channeled ware styles. This timing comes back again and again in the archaeological, historical and genetic context. And we find E-V13 to appear exactly in the same places in highest frequency, or at all, where channelled ware appeared before, especially Gava and Belegis II. To me Belegiš II-Gava is the result of a fusion after an intrusion from the Gáva-Holigrady source and core group. But this needs to be proven genetically.

Huban
04-06-2021, 01:02 PM
Ok, so its all speculation on your part, just like I'm speculating about what Gava might be. I have one big issue with your deduction of Gava-haplogroups from Pannonian Scythians: There are different steps in between. To begin with, Gava was pushed big time from the East by successive waves of steppe people, including Cimmerians and Scythians, with which they mixed, which even contributed to Daco-Thracians. That's one of the big reasons why E-V13 was thinned out in its North Eastern area after the LBA, because they got pushed from the North and the East.
I can't say whether you are right or wrong with your interpretation, but the final decision will come with actual data from a safe context. Just like with Anatolian speakers and their origins, we can't conclude from remains not specific enough.

It is not a speculation on my part that 34 % of Sandorfalva Scythians were cremated and that most of them, 21 % overall, were urn burials. Occurrence of Gava-like (also called Pseudo-proto-Villanova) urns, most likely development of Gava urns there is also not speculation but a fact. Genetically Sandorfalva Scythians have no Scythian autosomal profile even as an admixture.
Now regardless of any migratory events between LBA and 6th century BC, it is very odd that these customs and traditions would be perpetuated for no reason. Due to their autosomal profile and their cultural traits these people were Urnfield descended.

Interestingly the similar pattern is followed at the second Hungarian Scythian site of Tiszaszolos (1 sample), where also we have the presence of same type of urn.
And also they happen to share a pretty rare mtdna: H2a2/H2a2a/H2a2a1, Tiszaszolos and two Sandorfalva samples share it, which also indicates some connection.

Both of these sites are from the Eastern parts (Gava influenced), and also Sandorfalva is very close to Csorva group which was heavily Gava influenced. Considering the geography of Gava-Holigrady R-YP340* being found there also is not a surprise.

So already it seems these finds do represent descendants of the Gava culture.

Most of these samples have a Northern autosomal profile which is not easy to define, with some similarities to other Urnfield/Hallstat samples we have, Kyjatice culture and Czech Hallstat Bylany. One has a profile similar to Getae (Moldovan Scythians), while another seems to be a mixture of the two.

Point is, it is very unlikely most E-V13 clades spread through this culture, TMRCA doesn't fit and also had that been the case then the IA Balkans would have showed alot more of this Northern Urnfield autosomal profile.

Quite incredible what can we learn from all these "Scythians"!

Riverman
04-06-2021, 02:16 PM
It is not a speculation on my part that 34 % of Sandorfalva Scythians were cremated and that most of them, 21 % overall, were urn burials. Occurrence of Gava-like (also called Pseudo-proto-Villanova), most likely development of Gava urns there is also not speculation but a fact. Genetically Sandorfalva Scythians have no Scythian autosomal profile even as an admixture.
Now regardless of any migratory events between LBA and 6th century BC, it is very odd that these customs and traditions would be perpetuated for no reason. Due to their autosomal profile and their cultural traits these people were Urnfield descended.

Interestingly the similar pattern is followed at the second Hungarian Scythian site of Tiszaszolos (1 sample), where also we have the presence of same type of urn.
And also they happen to share a pretty rare mtdna: H2a2/H2a2a/H2a2a1, Tiszaszolos and two Sandorfalva samples share it, which also indicates some connection.

Both of these sites are from the Eastern parts (Gava influenced), and also Sandorfalva is very close to Csorva group which was heavily Gava influenced. Considering the geography of Gava-Holigrady R-YP340* being found there also is not a surprise.

So already it seems these finds do represent descendants of the Gava culture.

Most of these samples have a Northern autosomal profile which is not easy to define, with some similarities to other Urnfield/Hallstat samples we have, Kyjatice culture and Czech Hallstat Bylany. One has a profile similar to Getae (Moldovan Scythians), while another seems to be a mixture of the two.

Point is, it is very unlikely most E-V13 clades spread through this culture, TMRCA doesn't fit and also had that been the case then the IA Balkans would have showed alot more of this Northern Urnfield autosomal profile.

Quite incredible what can we learn from all these "Scythians"!

Gava can be defined in a narrow sense or in a broader one. If I use Gava in the narrower sense, its the potential source and cultural centre, in the wider sense its just Channeled/Fluted Ware, which includes especially Belegiš II-Gava. As for the finds, I'm just not sure what to make out of it. Probably you are right and they are good representatives of the original Gava people, but I would prefer to get actual Otomani, Gava, Belegiš II remains get sampled if possible. You realise that a time gap of 700 years, with a lot happening in between, with people in a different place and context, is no safe bet.

Johane Derite
04-06-2021, 02:37 PM
Diodorus Siculus claimed that the Dardanians were named after Dardanus, and that both the Dardanians of Troy and of Kosovo were colonists sent forth by him:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ex5orMjXMAIoMt8?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Interestingly, he refers also to a second Dardanus who is referred to as the "king of the Scythians."

If this isn't a corruption of some sort, it is more probable that this Dardanus was a king of Scythia Minor, as the Phineus referred to as being the husband of this Dardanus's daughter was a king of Thrace.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EyM1QyDWgAAynZ5?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EyM1Z3GWEAIq6Ai?format=jpg&name=large

The presence of a Dardanus in Scythia Minor as well is interesting.

Huban
04-06-2021, 02:50 PM
Gava can be defined in a narrow sense or in a broader one. If I use Gava in the narrower sense, its the potential source and cultural centre, in the wider sense its just Channeled/Fluted Ware, which includes especially Belegiš II-Gava. As for the finds, I'm just not sure what to make out of it. Probably you are right and they are good representatives of the original Gava people, but I would prefer to get actual Otomani, Gava, Belegiš II remains get sampled if possible. You realise that a time gap of 700 years, with a lot happening in between, with people in a different place and context, is no safe bet.

Well in this instance most of these Scythians date to around 500 BC, and Gava lasted until at least 900 BC, so the gap is not that big. The greatest argument in favor of these being Gava descended is not their location but their usage of Gava-like urns and in their ways (cremated remains deposited in urns). They were most likely bilingual at that point in time.

https://i.ibb.co/Z18gbQH/Sandorfalva-145.jpg

Pseudo-proto-Villanovan Gava urn, 6th century BC from Sandorfalva, four Hungarian Scythians are from there. This is grave 145. It seems authors were not exactly clear on the grave numbers, it looks like graves 118, 123, 143 and 168 were tested looking at some file names. So these urns were still in usage by those Hungarian Scythians.

Belegiš II included strong Gava component but it also included strong Belegiš I indigenous component which was basically equal to the late Vatina culture. Gava component included actual Gava people migrating per archeologists.

CopperAxe
04-06-2021, 02:57 PM
Well in this instance most of these Scythians date to around 500 BC, and Gava lasted until at least 900 BC, so the gap is not that big. The greatest argument in favor of these being Gava descended is not their location but their usage of Gava-like urns and in their ways (cremated remains deposited in urns). They were most likely bilingual at that point in time.

https://i.ibb.co/Z18gbQH/Sandorfalva-145.jpg

Pseudo-proto-Villanovan Gava urn, 6th century BC from Sandorfalva, four Hungarian Scythians are from there. This is grave 145. It seems authors were not exactly clear on the grave numbers, it looks like graves 118, 123, 143 and 168 were tested looking at some file names. So these urns were still in usage by those Hungarian Scythians.

Belegiš II included strong Gava component but it also included strong Belegiš I indigenous component which was basically equal to the late Vatina culture. Gava component included actual Gava people migrating per archeologists.

Do you have any good summaries which lay out the archaeogical sites these "Scythians" came from? I've tried looking for it before but didnt really find anything worthwhile.

Specifically regarding the types of Scythian traditions and goods shown there.

Because if they were that much of a continuation of the preceding Gava culture in a genetic and cultural sense, I wonder if these people would've considered themselves to be of Scythian identity, and if they would've spoken Iranic languages.

Riverman
04-06-2021, 02:57 PM
Diodorus Siculus claimed that the Dardanians were named after Dardanus, and that both the Dardanians of Troy and of Kosovo were colonists sent forth by him:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ex5orMjXMAIoMt8?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

Interestingly, he refers also to a second Dardanus who is referred to as the "king of the Scythians."

If this isn't a corruption of some sort, it is more probable that this Dardanus was a king of Scythia Minor, as the Phineus referred to as being the husband of this Dardanus's daughter was a king of Thrace.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EyM1QyDWgAAynZ5?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EyM1Z3GWEAIq6Ai?format=jpg&name=large

The presence of a Dardanus in Scythia Minor as well is interesting.

We should not forget that after the Fluted Ware horizon there was a big impact of Eastern steppe people on most areas which should have been, by then, E-V13 dominated, including Pannonia, Romania and Bulgaria. These Cimmerian and Scythian related people surely had a significant impact, also on the later formation of the Hallstatt cultures and the name Thraco-Cimmerian horizon being still used by some for a reason.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian

The Thraco-Cimmerian horizon covers most of the Fluted Ware zone, its almost identical with it, and it also covers most of the E-V13 distribution. I don't think this is a coincidence, I just don't think that the Eastern influx brought it, which leaves Channeled/Fluted Ware as a base on top of which Eastern more nomadic groups might have came in.

Johane Derite
04-06-2021, 03:08 PM
The Thraco-Cimmerian horizon covers most of the Fluted Ware zone, its almost identical with it, and it also covers most of the E-V13 distribution. I don't think this is a coincidence, I just don't think that the Eastern influx brought it, which leaves Channeled/Fluted Ware as a base on top of which Eastern more nomadic groups might have came in.

Yes, that is what I was implying, the name Dardanus is not Iranic, so that "scythian" Dardanus king would likely have had a local non-scythian origin that became high status in the scythian polity.

And from the paper Aspar shared on the channeled/fluted ware:

"Scattered elements of this complex appear between Poland, the Ukraine and Troy"

Huban
04-06-2021, 03:24 PM
Do you have any good summaries which lay out the archaeogical sites these "Scythians" came from? I've tried looking for it before but didnt really find anything worthwhile.

Specifically regarding the types of Scythian traditions and goods shown there.

Because if they were that much of a continuation of the preceding Gava culture in a genetic and cultural sense, I wonder if these people would've considered themselves to be of Scythian identity, and if they would've spoken Iranic languages.

http://www.epa.hu/01600/01609/00026/pdf/MFME_EPA01609_1982_1983_1_115-128.pdf

This is the article on Sandorfalva that was mentioned as a reference in de Barros Damgaard et al. study where the samples have been tested. I suppose they were bilingual in Scythian and whatever was their language prior.
Barrel-shaped vessel with analogies in kurgans from Kiev and Poltava mentioned there is an example of Scythian influence.

Huban
04-06-2021, 03:40 PM
At Svilengrad, where we have an old E-V13/E-Z1919 find, and nearby in Kapitan Andreevo two upcoming E-V13/E-L618 finds (L618 is also surely V13, this is just preliminary call, that are often very basic in studies), in addition to dominant Pshenichevo pottery there, there was an amphora-shaped vessel, decorated with stamped/incrusted pottery typical for Babadag-Pshenichevo. It was classified as a local Balkan variant of the Gava type B amphorae.