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View Full Version : New subclade branch FGC6539/FGC6540, downstream of Z2961, parallel to the M222



MJost
02-15-2014, 04:43 AM
In reviewing Doug Trainor's list of SNPs yesterday, after a discussion on the Yahoo L21 forum, I have some great information and have let him know about this already.

He is FGC ID: MRD4PA and is confirmed as R-Z2961 positive along with his FTDNA kit 159039 and thus is DF49>DF23>Z2961 and is M222-.

Yesterday's discussion on the board had me look in more detail Doug's list of new SNPs and I noticed that he had a novel SNP FGC6564 in common with HG02501 (R-Z2961).

I went ahead and contacted Dr. Greg Magoon who took a second look for me and came to the same conclusion that I did. He stated that it looks like there was a new group downstream of Z2961 and parallel to M222.

From Greg's review today, Trainor's new subclade will be defined by FGC6539, FGC6540, and FGC6564 (the last one is classified as a private variant in the report because the call in HG02501 is weak and it wasn't recognized as shared on the initial screen). Most of the other private SNPs for this kit (with the possible exceptions being those with no-calls in HG02501), along with the apparently recurrent SNPs Z2051 and FGC6541 reported as shared) will be downstream of these three SNPs.

This identification of FGC6539 and FGC6540 as the two SNPs that will make a new subclade branch FGC6539/ FGC6540, downstream of Z2961 and now parallel to the big M222.

Congrats Doug.

MJost

greystones22
02-15-2014, 07:35 AM
Good work. Looking forward to seeing test results for this branch

MacUalraig
02-15-2014, 08:43 AM
This is an exciting development, well done to all those involved!

cilldara
02-15-2014, 03:17 PM
That's great!

I'm already after receiving my FGC results.

Aidan Kelly
02-16-2014, 09:21 AM
Mark, great to have the benefit of your understanding on Z2961+ and the FGC work. I admit to being a bit rusty but this is of great interest.

[1] Does HG02501 refer to an individual who has been typed as Z2961+? I looked at the http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a*/ and it says ACB - African Caribbean in Barbados so I presume it is an individual who is Z2961+ and M222-. I wasn't sure if that was it or it was a SNP descriptor.

[2] Am I understanding correctly that parallel to M222+ means that the line of MRD4PA (Douglas Trainor - being Z2961+ and M222-) AND the big line of M222+ have in common the new SNPs FGC6539/40 and therefore the recent analysis identifies SNP evidence that these two different lines (one being M222- and the other M222+) were in-common after Z2961+ seemingly at least up until the occurrence of FGC6539/40. So this new analysis provides the SNP evidence of a more recent common ancestor for these two lines. Of course somewhere between the occurrence of FGC6539/40 and M222+ the lines diverged.

[3] Do you foresee a more fuller comparison of MRD4PA with an M222+ individual to see where there may be more overlap? Or where the overlap ceases. I presume the M222+ data is in the tsunami pipeline (there is a surfing bent in there).

[4] As a further task I suppose this means that at a suitable moment I should take on the FG test (I am FTDNA 100219 - Z2961+ M222- and now presumably FGC6539/40) to compare with Douglas (MRD4PA) and endeavour to see if and where there is any meaningful signs of divergence in new sub-clade (our STR scores are 60/67).

regards

Aidan

Dubhthach
02-16-2014, 11:32 AM
It would be worth seeing if FTDNA will offer a test for FGC6539/FGC6540. It's only be testing other men in this Uν Maine cluster will we be able to see if these are cluster wide SNP's or if there a way of splitting the two SNP's (for example one might be above the other).

Are any of the Uν Maine cluster waiting for "Big Y" testing?

-Paul
(DF41+)

MJost
02-16-2014, 05:09 PM
See answers below


Mark, great to have the benefit of your understanding on Z2961+ and the FGC work. I admit to being a bit rusty but this is of great interest.

[1] Does HG02501 refer to an individual who has been typed as Z2961+? I looked at the http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a*/ and it says ACB - African Caribbean in Barbados so I presume it is an individual who is Z2961+ and M222-. I wasn't sure if that was it or it was a SNP descriptor.

HG02501 is a Z2961+ and negative for M222. Trainor has three novel SNPs in common with HG0201.


[2] Am I understanding correctly that parallel to M222+ means that the line of MRD4PA (Douglas Trainor - being Z2961+ and M222-) AND the big line of M222+ have in common the new SNPs FGC6539/40 and therefore the recent analysis identifies SNP evidence that these two different lines (one being M222- and the other M222+) were in-common after Z2961+ seemingly at least up until the occurrence of FGC6539/40. So this new analysis provides the SNP evidence of a more recent common ancestor for these two lines. Of course somewhere between the occurrence of FGC6539/40 and M222+ the lines diverged.

No, Z2961 is the common ancestor between M222 and SNPs FGC6539/40. Two brother clades of Z2961. None of Doug's new SNPs are found in M222. Here is the apparent phylogeny.


• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1a1 DF23/S193
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1a1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a Z2961
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1 M222/Page84/USP9Y+3636
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1a DF85/S675
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a2 FGC6539/FGC6540

[3] Do you foresee a more fuller comparison of MRD4PA with an M222+ individual to see where there may be more overlap? Or where the overlap ceases. I presume the M222+ data is in the tsunami pipeline (there is a surfing bent in there).

This new subclade below Z2961 will need to successfully completed the ISOGG Listing Criteria requirements in order to officially placed on the R-Tree.

[4] As a further task I suppose this means that at a suitable moment I should take on the FG test (I am FTDNA 100219 - Z2961+ M222- and now presumably FGC6539/40) to compare with Douglas (MRD4PA) and endeavour to see if and where there is any meaningful signs of divergence in new sub-clade (our STR scores are 60/67).

Yes it does. Diversity is part of the listing requirement and it does look like you two will have the met if you choose to use your sample for this purpose.

regards

Aidan

Aidan Kelly
02-17-2014, 01:11 AM
Mark, thank you for shining a light on that, so I got that completely wrong! - So the two new FGS SNPs (FGC6539 / FGC6540) are not carried by M222+, therefore the assumption is that these mutations occurred downstream of Z2961+ and after the split of the two brother clades that we are talking about. Do you know the extent to which the two brother clades share any new FGS SNPs that would suggest that those SNPs are downstream of Z2961+ but upstream of the split? Or what might be more interesting to M222+ research, those new FGS SNPs that are not present in the Z2961+ M222- individual but are in the Z2961+ M222+ individual and therefore can be concluded to be downstream of Z2961. Note: I am very happy to watch from the side-lines here and I thank you all for you analysis and sharing the understandings.

MJost
02-17-2014, 04:51 AM
Aidan,

Of the new FGC SNP's Trainor currently has, none of these SNP's are line the M222 branch. With only FGC6539/40 SNPs found in a public Z2961 guy, these are the first few SNPs in a new branch down stream of Z2961. I am not saying that there isn't a SNP stuck downstream from Z2961 for both brother clades but it's highly doubtful since they appear to be close together about the same TMRCA's.


_____Z2961______________
| |
M222 |
| FGC6539/40
DF85 |
Remaining FGC SNPs

The ages of each are about the same, but maybe FGC6539 is maybe a gen or two younger. Need more positive guys in this new branch.

MJost

MJost

laurie
02-28-2014, 04:36 AM
It would be worth seeing if FTDNA will offer a test for FGC6539/FGC6540. It's only be testing other men in this Uν Maine cluster will we be able to see if these are cluster wide SNP's or if there a way of splitting the two SNP's (for example one might be above the other).

Are any of the Uν Maine cluster waiting for "Big Y" testing?

-Paul
(DF41+)

Hi All - I am Z2961+ and M222- and I'm waiting for Big Y results due back today.

FTDNA N108400

laurie
06-27-2014, 07:02 AM
Hi All - I am Z2961+ and M222- and I'm waiting for Big Y results due back today.

FTDNA N108400

So Big Y results in - terminal SNP is F346. One match on the Big Y match list with the surname Thomas with 74 shared novel variants. Can anyone interpret that for me?

Dubhthach
06-27-2014, 08:08 AM
So Big Y results in - terminal SNP is F346. One match on the Big Y match list with the surname Thomas with 74 shared novel variants. Can anyone interpret that for me?

Laurie,

If you look at Alex Williamson's tree you can see that you share a fair bit of SNP's with Thomas
http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/Tree.html

It would be intersting to see what sort of Genetic Distance that you have with them when it comes to STR's. Thomas strikes me as a Welsh surname. Joyce is obviously regarded as an Irish surname of welsh origin (arriving from 1200 onwards -- Cambro-Normans). Obviously the Joyces became "more Irish then the Irish themselves" (same went for Burke's, Walsh's, Butler's and Fitzgerald's etc.) to use an example so much so that a big chunk of county Galway is called "Joyce Country" to this day (see Green area in map)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Connemara_and_Joyce_country.png

-Paul
(DF41+)

dp
06-28-2014, 05:02 PM
In reading the posts, and then searching this site, I noticed no mention of F4346 as a branch point from the Z2961 node, alternative to M222 --or as I have read in the posts also to FGC6539/40. Can someone confirm that F4346 is a brother group to M222 and FGC6539/40?



In reviewing Doug Trainor's list of SNPs yesterday, after a discussion on the Yahoo L21 forum, I have some great information and have let him know about this already.

He is FGC ID: MRD4PA and is confirmed as R-Z2961 positive along with his FTDNA kit 159039 and thus is DF49>DF23>Z2961 and is M222-.

Yesterday's discussion on the board had me look in more detail Doug's list of new SNPs and I noticed that he had a novel SNP FGC6564 in common with HG02501 (R-Z2961).

I went ahead and contacted Dr. Greg Magoon who took a second look for me and came to the same conclusion that I did. He stated that it looks like there was a new group downstream of Z2961 and parallel to M222.

From Greg's review today, Trainor's new subclade will be defined by FGC6539, FGC6540, and FGC6564 (the last one is classified as a private variant in the report because the call in HG02501 is weak and it wasn't recognized as shared on the initial screen). Most of the other private SNPs for this kit (with the possible exceptions being those with no-calls in HG02501), along with the apparently recurrent SNPs Z2051 and FGC6541 reported as shared) will be downstream of these three SNPs.

This identification of FGC6539 and FGC6540 as the two SNPs that will make a new subclade branch FGC6539/ FGC6540, downstream of Z2961 and now parallel to the big M222.

Congrats Doug.

MJost

jdean
06-28-2014, 06:22 PM
In reading the posts, and then searching this site, I noticed no mention of F4346 as a branch point from the Z2961 node, alternative to M222 --or as I have read in the posts also to FGC6539/40. Can someone confirm that F4346 is a brother group to M222 and FGC6539/40?

F4346 is one of the shared SNPs between Joyce and Thomas, however Trainer is negative for it.

F4346 is one of many SNPs Joyce and Thomas share but they are both in the same relatively young cluster , F4346 itself appears in a few Big Y kits on different branches (including an M222 kit) so in the end may not be that useful.

What we really need is more DF23 Big Y tests and I made a point of trying to encourage DF23 members of the DF49 project to order Big Y in the recent sale but with no joy, hopefully some will turn up amongst the L21 ? kits.

dp
06-30-2014, 08:57 PM
Thanks Jean your response. I'm awaiting a M222 SNP test. In case its negative, I'm trying to learn about Z2961 and its other branches. Does DF23 have any branches besides Z2961?
dp :-)

jdean
07-01-2014, 05:03 PM
Thanks Jean your response. I'm awaiting a M222 SNP test. In case its negative, I'm trying to learn about Z2961 and its other branches. Does DF23 have any branches besides Z2961?
dp :-)

I'm going to go out on a limb here but I don't think you'll end up being M222+

At the moment the only branching SNPs we know of is the Trainor ones spotted by MJost and a bunch of SNPs that probably define Laurie's branch. Problem is we have very few DF23 X M222 next gen testing for DF23 x M222 and there's only one that I'm aware of for DF23 x Z2961 and there's not much you can do with that !!!

dp
07-01-2014, 10:54 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb here but I don't think you'll end up being M222+

At the moment the only branching SNPs we know of is the Trainor ones spotted by MJost and a bunch of SNPs that probably define Laurie's branch. Problem is we have very few DF23 X M222 next gen testing for DF23 x M222 and there's only one that I'm aware of for DF23 x Z2961 and there's not much you can do with that !!!

Only one Powell in the Powell FTDNA project is M222+. It may sound odd but I recently joined the Hodges surname project. My STR's are within the variation of one of the Hodges lineages, with a common ancestor in the Middle Ages. Unfortunately, all in the lineage group are M269* at present, so I don't know if convergent evolution has occurred in my Y-DNA or not.

By trawling the FTDNA projects of L21, DF49, and Ireland for kits with DF23+, M222- that have not had z2961 tested I found:
5155, 18917, 207798, N115560 [DF49 members] and N116876 [L21 member]; such could be either z2961+, form novel branches of DF23, or remain DF23*.

At the same time, I noted z2961+ kits that had not been tested for anything downstream and found:
224025, 250714, 160027 and 259442 [DF49 members]; such could be M222+, FGC6539/40+, form novel branches of z2961, or remain z2961.

Do you know if any of the above have had tests that assign them to groups other than DF23* and z2961 respectively?
dp :-)

laurie
07-02-2014, 09:39 AM
Hi Paul
We've just got some results back in the Joyce project for the Joyce Chief line and they are R1a. We've got a cluster at SRY2627 with a couple of Big Y results in. We've also got a group at M512+ and another at M222+. And then there is me and my group. So a group of different men all from County Galway, some in likely in Ireland pre 1283 when Thomas de Jorse arrived from Wales, some who may also have arrived around the same time with him and others unknown. I've got a few more results for Y37 tests in the pipeline and we might get a bit more clarity.
My closest Y67 match at a 60/67 is a guy called Walsh who so far hasn't responded but I know that's still likely to be a long time ago. And then at 25 markers I have a 25/25 match for around 14 Grissom/Grisham/Gresham and at 24/25 around a dozen or so St Clair/Sinclairs, both names of which also have Norman origins.
Any advice is gratefully appreciated.

Dubhthach
07-02-2014, 10:17 AM
Given nature of the "blow-ins" (to use an Irish term -- if you are from another parish you're a "blow-in" ;) ) it wouldn't surprise me that men like Thomas de Jorse would have arrived with for example a number of knights and "Men at arms". If you look at for example Raymond FitzGerald (Le Gros) when he arrived in 1170 he had 100 men (10 knights the rest were "men at arms"/bowmen who would have been mostly welsh). I'd imagine the same would apply, generally these men didn't have surname, so they probably either adopted their lords name or were known by surnames that show geographic origin (thence "Walsh" now been second most common surname in Ireland today).

-Paul

jdean
07-02-2014, 11:32 AM
Given nature of the "blow-ins" (to use an Irish term -- if you are from another parish you're a "blow-in" ;) ) it wouldn't surprise me that men like Thomas de Jorse would have arrived with for example a number of knights and "Men at arms". If you look at for example Raymond FitzGerald (Le Gros) when he arrived in 1170 he had 100 men (10 knights the rest were "men at arms"/bowmen who would have been mostly welsh). I'd imagine the same would apply, generally these men didn't have surname, so they probably either adopted their lords name or were known by surnames that show geographic origin (thence "Walsh" now been second most common surname in Ireland today).

-Paul

Cheers for that Paul, makes a lot of sense.

Back in the day, if you wanted a decent bowman Wales was the place to look. I've come across a few references to the Men of Gwent who were particularly feared but fashioned there bows out of unfinished branches, probably more like boughs : )

http://warbowwales.com/#/the-welsh-longbow/4557703062

jdean
07-02-2014, 12:30 PM
Only one Powell in the Powell FTDNA project is M222+. It may sound odd but I recently joined the Hodges surname project. My STR's are within the variation of one of the Hodges lineages, with a common ancestor in the Middle Ages. Unfortunately, all in the lineage group are M269* at present, so I don't know if convergent evolution has occurred in my Y-DNA or not.

By trawling the FTDNA projects of L21, DF49, and Ireland for kits with DF23+, M222- that have not had z2961 tested I found:
5155, 18917, 207798, N115560 [DF49 members] and N116876 [L21 member]; such could be either z2961+, form novel branches of DF23, or remain DF23*.

At the same time, I noted z2961+ kits that had not been tested for anything downstream and found:
224025, 250714, 160027 and 259442 [DF49 members]; such could be M222+, FGC6539/40+, form novel branches of z2961, or remain z2961.

Do you know if any of the above have had tests that assign them to groups other than DF23* and z2961 respectively?
dp :-)

kit no. 5155 has now tested Z2961-, the rest have either been predicted Z2961 + or -. Most likely kits that are Z2961+ but don't have a SNP test for M222 belong to Z2961* clusters we identified and ordered that SNP at our suggestion, ideally these kits should also be tested for M222 but I don't press the issue.

The one thing I am weary of is placing folk into the M222 category until they have tested for it, even if I'm personally convinced they will end up M222+, this is because there are a very small no. who look like they really should be M222+ but tested negative. We have one such in the project and he turned out to be Z2961+, a Big Y or FGC from somebody of this ilk would surely be very informative : )

Dubhthach
07-02-2014, 01:19 PM
The one thing I am weary of is placing folk into the M222 category until they have tested for it, even if I'm personally convinced they will end up M222+, this is because there are a very small no. who look like they really should be M222+ but tested negative. We have one such in the project and he turned out to be Z2961+, a Big Y or FGC from somebody of this ilk would surely be very informative : )

Regarding the Z2961+/M222- man above, if I'm reading you correctly he looks like a M222+ from STR point of view is that right? If that's the case I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to arrange sponsorship for BigY. There's a huge number of SNP's (over 30) that are equivalent to M222+, so it could be case that he's positive for some of these but negative for M222 itself.

What's his kit id?

-Paul
(DF41+)

jdean
07-02-2014, 03:10 PM
Regarding the Z2961+/M222- man above, if I'm reading you correctly he looks like a M222+ from STR point of view is that right? If that's the case I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to arrange sponsorship for BigY. There's a huge number of SNP's (over 30) that are equivalent to M222+, so it could be case that he's positive for some of these but negative for M222 itself.

What's his kit id?

-Paul
(DF41+)

Yep, I've just created a pre M222 category for him.

He's got 68 matches at 67 loci which isn't so many for M222 but a lot for DF23 x M222. The majority of these are predicted M222 but some DF23 with a smattering of M269 or L21. All those with terminal SNPs are tested M222+

A fundraiser sounds like a good idea for this fellow but (unusually for me) I think FGC may be warranted as I think there are a few Z29xx SNPs that don't work well with Big Y (I'll double check that detail)


BTW A DF23* who belongs to a large Welsh cluster just joined the project with a Big Y pending : )))))

Dubhthach
07-02-2014, 04:39 PM
Yep, I've just created a pre M222 category for him.

He's got 68 matches at 67 loci which isn't so many for M222 but a lot for DF23 x M222. The majority of these are predicted M222 but some DF23 with a smattering of M269 or L21. All those with terminal SNPs are tested M222+

A fundraiser sounds like a good idea for this fellow but (unusually for me) I think FGC may be warranted as I think there are a few Z29xx SNPs that don't work well with Big Y (I'll double check that detail)


BTW A DF23* who belongs to a large Welsh cluster just joined the project with a Big Y pending : )))))

Could you suggest to him that he join the Ireland yDNA project. I'd like to run some Genetic Distances reports against his kit. As you can imagine we have a lot of M222+ members (plus obvioulsy DF49, DF23, Z2961 etc.). If he shows up with alot of M222+ matches in the project I'll send an email to M222 list pointing his kit out and suggest it might be worthwhile to sponsor test for BigY etc.

-Paul
(DF41+)

jdean
07-02-2014, 05:22 PM
Could you suggest to him that he join the Ireland yDNA project. I'd like to run some Genetic Distances reports against his kit. As you can imagine we have a lot of M222+ members (plus obvioulsy DF49, DF23, Z2961 etc.). If he shows up with alot of M222+ matches in the project I'll send an email to M222 list pointing his kit out and suggest it might be worthwhile to sponsor test for BigY etc.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I'll drop him a line, he should be in your project anyway : )

Accord to the McGee Y-DNA Comparison Utility (slight difference between this and FTDNA for calculating GD at DYS464) there are 14 members of your project who should see this fellow as a match at 67 loci and a further 79 with a GD from 8 to 10 !!

Dubhthach
07-02-2014, 05:35 PM
I'll drop him a line, he should be in your project anyway : )

Accord to the McGee Y-DNA Comparison Utility (slight difference between this and FTDNA for calculating GD at DYS464) there are 14 members of your project who should see this fellow as a match at 67 loci and a further 79 with a GD from 8 to 10 !!

Doesn't appear to be, had a look for "N26284" in the SNP report doesn't show up.

jdean
07-02-2014, 05:40 PM
Doesn't appear to be, had a look for "N26284" in the SNP report doesn't show up.

Should have said, with his surname he should be in your project : )

dp
07-02-2014, 07:58 PM
could you run my 67 STR kit (ysearch atr94, familytreedna N87877) for GD compared to the project too. I joined the FTDNA Ireland project when I found out I was DF23+, and found that some "Powell's" were in Gaelic Mac Giolla Phoil, and their surname had been anglicized to Powell --I assume that's how there's a M222+ Powell in the Powell FTDNA project. I haven't joined the FTDNA M222 project until I test positive for that SNP. I'm very interested in MRCA analysis for DF23, z2961, M222 (and related) haplogroups.
dp :-)

Dubhthach
07-03-2014, 07:51 AM
could you run my 67 STR kit (ysearch atr94, familytreedna N87877) for GD compared to the project too. I joined the FTDNA Ireland project when I found out I was DF23+, and found that some "Powell's" were in Gaelic Mac Giolla Phoil, and their surname had been anglicized to Powell --I assume that's how there's a M222+ Powell in the Powell FTDNA project. I haven't joined the FTDNA M222 project until I test positive for that SNP. I'm very interested in MRCA analysis for DF23, z2961, M222 (and related) haplogroups.
dp :-)

In context of Ireland project here are your 10 closest matches when it comes to GD at 67 markers:



N22070 Stanford 67 12 Group04. R1b-M269
87470 Shields 67 14 Group16-1c3 R1b-L1066/CTS1202
92311 Bonham 111 15 Group15. R1b-U152
231239 Johnston 67 15 Group04. R1b-M269
244292 O'Neill 67 15 Group16-1n R1b-CTS4466 (FGC11134+)
12790 Berry 67 16 Group04. R1b-M269
106142 La Salle Boals 67 16 Group14a2a. R1b-SRY2627
229838 Dunegan 67 16 Group04. R1b-M269 TiP Report
90660 Johnston 111 16 Group16-1h4 R1b-Z2961 (M222-)
262468 Johnston 67 16 Group16. R1b-L21



As you can see you show up matches who can't possibly be close (highlighted in Red eg. CTS4466+, U152+ etc.). In Bold I highlighted the one verified Z2961+ (M222-) this Johnston has a GD of 16 from you at 67 markers. I notice that there are two other Johnston's (GD of 15, and 16) in list (one not SNP tested, the other tested to L21)

-Paul
(DF41+)

dp
07-03-2014, 02:35 PM
In context of Ireland project here are your 10 closest matches when it comes to GD at 67 markers:



As you can see you show up matches who can't possibly be close (highlighted in Red eg. CTS4466+, U152+ etc.). In Bold I highlighted the one verified Z2961+ (M222-) this Johnston has a GD of 16 from you at 67 markers. I notice that there are two other Johnston's (GD of 15, and 16) in list (one not SNP tested, the other tested to L21)

-Paul
(DF41+)

Thanks,
When I was looking through the kit SNPs it looked like about 10% of the members in L21, DF49, & Ireland that were DF23+, M222-, and based on if they've had z2961 tested or not, are either DF23* or z2961*(+FGC6539). Do you think my percentage estimate is reasonable?
dp :-)

jdean
07-03-2014, 06:38 PM
Thanks,
When I was looking through the kit SNPs it looked like about 10% of the members in L21, DF49, & Ireland that were DF23+, M222-, and based on if they've had z2961 tested or not, are either DF23* or z2961*(+FGC6539). Do you think my percentage estimate is reasonable?
dp :-)

You don't fit any of the identified clusters so it's not possible to predict but I'd say 50/50, Z2961 looks to split DF23 x M222 pretty much in half.

dp
07-28-2014, 06:06 PM
Since posting the last query I've looked at the L21 spreadsheets and find only 56 kits (from public projects) that are DF23+ but can't be placed into the M222 clad --some probably haven't been tested for M222 yet.
With the new branches discovered by Big-Y/FGC, DF49* is getting smaller at a faster rate than DF23*.
BTW, M222* has grown by 10% during the period from 1-31-14 (Mark Jost's TMRCA spreadsheet data collection date) to 7-16-14 (Mike Walsh's latest L21 spreadsheet run). Such may include M222** kits.
David Powell
dp :-)

dp
08-01-2014, 06:41 PM
I apologize for posting this in an improper thread.

Since posting the last query I've looked at the L21 spreadsheets and find only 56 kits (from public projects) that are DF23+ but can't be placed into the M222 clad --some probably haven't been tested for M222 yet.
Ignore the below stats.

With the new branches discovered by Big-Y/FGC, DF49* is getting smaller at a faster rate than DF23*.
BTW, M222* has grown by 10% during the period from 1-31-14 (Mark Jost's TMRCA spreadsheet data collection date) to 7-16-14 (Mike Walsh's latest L21 spreadsheet run). Such may include M222** kits.
dp :-)

jdean
09-14-2014, 02:18 PM
Sorry missed Sullivan (kit no. 255112) shared FGC6540 & FGC6564 with Trainor 159039, down to me not realizing Thomas had already added these mutations to Y-Browser when I downloaded the known SNPs, earlier in the year, for my Big Y analysis and consequently that they appeared in a different section of my spreadsheet for Sullivan, ho hum.

Anyhow this error came to light when I noticed a new Big Y DF23 result for somebody not in the R-L21 project who was also on this branch, swiftly followed the next day by another in the R-L21 project !!!!!

Think this group might be quite large : )

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10258680/Draft%20DF49%20x%20M222%20Tree%20v13.png

dp
09-15-2014, 07:04 PM
Sorry missed Sullivan (kit no. 255112) shared FGC6540 & FGC6564 with Trainor 159039, down to me not realizing Thomas had already added these mutations to Y-Browser when I downloaded the known SNPs, earlier in the year, for my Big Y analysis and consequently that they appeared in a different section of my spreadsheet for Sullivan, ho hum.

Anyhow this error came to light when I noticed a new Big Y DF23 result for somebody not in the R-L21 project who was also on this branch, swiftly followed the next day by another in the R-L21 project !!!!!

Think this group might be quite large : )

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10258680/Draft%20DF49%20x%20M222%20Tree%20v13.png
Thank's for revising the DF49 tree. I wonder on which of the minor z2961xM222 branches I'll fall on :-)
dp :-)

jdean
09-15-2014, 07:38 PM
Thank's for revising the DF49 tree. I wonder on which of the minor z2961xM222 branches I'll fall on :-)
dp :-)

Judging by the no. of folk who are suddenly turning up on the new branch I'd say there's a pretty good chance you'll fit in there somewhere, however it'd be really cool if we found early branching SNPs between you and Joyce / Thomas : )

dp
09-17-2014, 07:27 PM
Judging by the no. of folk who are suddenly turning up on the new branch I'd say there's a pretty good chance you'll fit in there somewhere, however it'd be really cool if we found early branching SNPs between you and Joyce / Thomas : )
Considering that you now have at least 4 Big-Y FGC6540 kits, I think Joyce & Thomas need company.
dp :-)

dp
09-24-2014, 04:17 PM
Just visited the DF49 project page, and noticed on the map that I am the most southerly z2961xM222 dude. I'm from NE North Carolina. There's got to be some people in this haplogroup that live or have roots south of me. That being said most of my STR matches (>12 STRs) are from North Carolina, or the bordering states of Virginia, or Tennessee. I also notice no people in the haplogroup west of the Mississippi.
Calling all cars...where are the z2961xM222 guys hanging out?
dp :-)

PS: I hope we can use this thread for any z2961xM222 discussion.

jdean
09-24-2014, 04:53 PM
Just visited the DF49 project page, and noticed on the map that I am the most southerly z2961xM222 dude. I'm from NE North Carolina. There's got to be some people in this haplogroup that live or have roots south of me. That being said most of my STR matches (>12 STRs) are from North Carolina, or the bordering states of Virginia, or Tennessee. I also notice no people in the haplogroup west of the Mississippi.
Calling all cars...where are the z2961xM222 guys hanging out?
dp :-)

PS: I hope we can use this thread for any z2961xM222 discussion.


Don't know about Z2961 x M222 but there was is a quite big DF49, ZP41+ line that traces back to S. Carolina and spread from there to Mississippi and Texas : )

dp
09-24-2014, 05:11 PM
Hey Dave,
Has the Stedman kit you mentioned earlier (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2356-Map-of-Surname-Matches&p=49119&viewfull=1#post49119) like a month ago or so come back yet?
dp :-)

jdean
09-24-2014, 05:15 PM
Hey Dave,
Has the Stedman kit you mentioned http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2356-Map-of-Surname-Matches&p=49119&viewfull=1#post49119 a month ago or so come back yet?
dp :-)

Going to be batched tonight, very excited and apprehensive at the same time : )

dp
09-25-2014, 05:57 PM
Are there any other Big-Y tests in progress for DF49xM222 besides mine? Perhaps in a surname project...
dp

dp
09-25-2014, 05:58 PM
[withdrawn]

dp
10-21-2014, 09:17 PM
Well the Big-Y results are in. I'm not in this novel branch.
dp :-(

jdean
10-21-2014, 10:29 PM
Well the Big-Y results are in. I'm not in this novel branch.
dp :-(

Fear not David, I'm sure we'll find a great branch for you in due course !!

dp
10-21-2014, 10:31 PM
I feel old and all alone, well perhaps not me but my "branch". I kid my mom that I'm almost extinct :-)
dp

jdean
10-21-2014, 10:46 PM
Better get working on that : )

laurie
10-22-2014, 05:48 AM
I reckon Melbourne Australia beats you for being furthest South :)

Bart
11-12-2014, 02:56 AM
Hi guys, new to the forum and possibly another in the approximate "Trainor" area of the tree, unless I'm mistaken, which is more than possible.

An extremely quick and completely inexperienced look possibly puts me at DF23>Z2961+(M222-)>ZP75&76+>ZP77+ general region but getting a bit confused with all of the alternative naming and so will ask someone to double check, guide me and/or maybe explain in plain English later on if they are kind and have the time ;)

Traced some strands of my own tree back to mid-1500's, but direct Male only back to circa 1670 so far. Obviously this is where paper trail starts to run dry, so thought I'd give DNA a try

Only just got Big-Y back, so if you can give me a couple of days to sort out the appropriate approvals, downloads, opening up of results etc, will post again in a few days when I have more time. Just wanted to register and bookmark as work in progress so I don't forget.

Good meeting you all,


Bart

dp
11-12-2014, 04:18 PM
:welcome:
Dear "Bart",
Welcome to Anthrogenica. I was glad to see that another z2961xM222 kit was tested but a little disappointed that FamilyTree didn't notify me of the new match. I'll have to see if there's a setting I can change. It said that we are 2 known SNP difference, no telling how many novel SNP's separate our families.
Many SNPs have multiple numbers. P312 is S116, L21 is M529, etc. Depends on who found them, and applied for a number. (So far) ZP-- are from the DF49 project. You can contact Dave Stedman, the DF49 project Admin and ISOGG member, for questions. If you haven't contacted him via the project he's on Anthrogenica as jdean (http://www.anthrogenica.com/member.php?622-jdean).
I encourage you to send your zipped results (there's a .bed & a .vcf file in the zip) to Dave's email <[email protected]>. That way he can classify your kit for the project, and see if any tree revisions might be necessary. Others, such as the Yahoo R1b-L21 genetic (genealogy) project would be interested in your kit too.
Later,
dp :-)


Hi guys, new to the forum and possibly another in the approximate "Trainor" area of the tree, unless I'm mistaken, which is more than possible.

An extremely quick and completely inexperienced look possibly puts me at DF23>Z2961+(M222-)>ZP75&76+>ZP77+ general region but getting a bit confused with all of the alternative naming and so will ask someone to double check, guide me and/or maybe explain in plain English later on if they are kind and have the time ;)

Traced some strands of my own tree back to mid-1500's, but direct Male only back to circa 1670 so far. Obviously this is where paper trail starts to run dry, so thought I'd give DNA a try

Only just got Big-Y back, so if you can give me a couple of days to sort out the appropriate approvals, downloads, opening up of results etc, will post again in a few days when I have more time. Just wanted to register and bookmark as work in progress so I don't forget.

Good meeting you all,


Bart

dp
11-12-2014, 04:30 PM
I reckon Melbourne Australia beats you for being furthest South :)

Indeed
:hail:

dp, LOL

Bart
11-13-2014, 07:19 AM
Thanks for the warm welcome and helpful info David, very much appreciated.

Downloading everything now and will send to Mike W. & Dave S. Let me know if there's any other early steps I should be doing, although I should now get time to browse the forum and start to increase my basic understanding.

You are my closest match of 6. Interestingly both of the non-matching snps shown appear as non-matching with the other 5 people too. Not sure if this means they are unique to me, unique to you 6 people or just a quirk or are unrealiable snps. About to google them ;)

All good fun :)

Solothurn
11-13-2014, 11:04 AM
Hi Bart

Hope you are well :)


Hi guys, new to the forum and possibly another in the approximate "Trainor" area of the tree, unless I'm mistaken, which is more than possible.

An extremely quick and completely inexperienced look possibly puts me at DF23>Z2961+(M222-)>ZP75&76+>ZP77+ general region but getting a bit confused with all of the alternative naming and so will ask someone to double check, guide me and/or maybe explain in plain English later on if they are kind and have the time ;)

Traced some strands of my own tree back to mid-1500's, but direct Male only back to circa 1670 so far. Obviously this is where paper trail starts to run dry, so thought I'd give DNA a try

Only just got Big-Y back, so if you can give me a couple of days to sort out the appropriate approvals, downloads, opening up of results etc, will post again in a few days when I have more time. Just wanted to register and bookmark as work in progress so I don't forget.

Good meeting you all,


Bart

laurie
02-17-2015, 03:22 AM
In the light of the YFULL analysis that puts the TMRCA age of Z2961 at 4700 ybp and therefore at about the same age as DF23 I'd be interested in knowing peoples thoughts on the origins and what it might mean to those of us who are Z2961+ but M222-

"New feature:
In the YFull Y-Tree http://www.yfull.com/tree/A0-T we have shown an estimation of age for all subclades with at least one Big Y or Y Elite in our database. The algorythm of estimation by SNP count we will explain later in an article written by Dmitriy Adamov, Vladimir Gurianov, Sergey Karzhavin, Vladimir Tagankin, Vadim Urasin.

New samples:
new sample YF02591 in subclade R-S603
new sample YF02597 in subclade R-Y3454"

3794

I have a test pending at FTDNA for ZP69 which will hopefully get me a little further downstream.

And some more advice please - my STR marker matches show 16 people with the surnames Grisham/Gresham/Grissom and a similar number of Sinclair/St.Clairs exact or up to 2 markers off at 37 markers and around 7 Lowery the same. None of them show up as having a terminal SNP younger than L21. Given the suggested age of Z2961 in the YFULL study what does that mean for STR testing. Should I expect matches at 35/37 markers to also be at least Z2961 positive?

None of those men show up as matches at 67 markers where (apart from my son) I have only one match a bloke called Welsh with 60/67 markers also only L21.

dp
02-28-2015, 06:10 PM
Dear laurie,
check out [HG02501]: http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/SNPinfoForPerson.php?personID=965
It looks like to me that he doesn't belong in either of the novel z2961 branches :-)
dp :-)


In the light of the YFULL analysis that puts the TMRCA age of Z2961 at 4700 ybp and therefore at about the same age as DF23 I'd be interested in knowing peoples thoughts on the origins and what it might mean to those of us who are Z2961+ but M222-

"New feature:
In the YFull Y-Tree http://www.yfull.com/tree/A0-T we have shown an estimation of age for all subclades with at least one Big Y or Y Elite in our database. The algorythm of estimation by SNP count we will explain later in an article written by Dmitriy Adamov, Vladimir Gurianov, Sergey Karzhavin, Vladimir Tagankin, Vadim Urasin.

New samples:
new sample YF02591 in subclade R-S603
new sample YF02597 in subclade R-Y3454"

3794

I have a test pending at FTDNA for ZP69 which will hopefully get me a little further downstream.

And some more advice please - my STR marker matches show 16 people with the surnames Grisham/Gresham/Grissom and a similar number of Sinclair/St.Clairs exact or up to 2 markers off at 37 markers and around 7 Lowery the same. None of them show up as having a terminal SNP younger than L21. Given the suggested age of Z2961 in the YFULL study what does that mean for STR testing. Should I expect matches at 35/37 markers to also be at least Z2961 positive?

None of those men show up as matches at 67 markers where (apart from my son) I have only one match a bloke called Welsh with 60/67 markers also only L21.

dp
03-02-2015, 05:07 PM
laurie, a ZP69- result has come in on the L21 project. I haven't spotted any z2961xM222, ZP75- results yet.
B6499 Abner P. Pollard, b 1819 PA, d 1902 OH R1b2a1 R-M269 ZP75+, M222-, ZP69-
dp :-)

In the light of the YFULL analysis that puts the TMRCA age of Z2961 at 4700 ybp and therefore at about the same age as DF23 I'd be interested in knowing peoples thoughts on the origins and what it might mean to those of us who are Z2961+ but M222-

"New feature:
In the YFull Y-Tree http://www.yfull.com/tree/A0-T we have shown an estimation of age for all subclades with at least one Big Y or Y Elite in our database. The algorythm of estimation by SNP count we will explain later in an article written by Dmitriy Adamov, Vladimir Gurianov, Sergey Karzhavin, Vladimir Tagankin, Vadim Urasin.

New samples:
new sample YF02591 in subclade R-S603
new sample YF02597 in subclade R-Y3454"

3794

I have a test pending at FTDNA for ZP69 which will hopefully get me a little further downstream.

And some more advice please - my STR marker matches show 16 people with the surnames Grisham/Gresham/Grissom and a similar number of Sinclair/St.Clairs exact or up to 2 markers off at 37 markers and around 7 Lowery the same. None of them show up as having a terminal SNP younger than L21. Given the suggested age of Z2961 in the YFULL study what does that mean for STR testing. Should I expect matches at 35/37 markers to also be at least Z2961 positive?

None of those men show up as matches at 67 markers where (apart from my son) I have only one match a bloke called Welsh with 60/67 markers also only L21.

dp
03-31-2015, 07:48 PM
In the light of the YFULL analysis that puts the TMRCA age of Z2961 at 4700 ybp and therefore at about the same age as DF23 I'd be interested in knowing peoples thoughts on the origins and what it might mean to those of us who are Z2961+ but M222-

"New feature:
In the YFull Y-Tree http://www.yfull.com/tree/A0-T we have shown an estimation of age for all subclades with at least one Big Y or Y Elite in our database. The algorythm of estimation by SNP count we will explain later in an article written by Dmitriy Adamov, Vladimir Gurianov, Sergey Karzhavin, Vladimir Tagankin, Vadim Urasin.

New samples:
new sample YF02591 in subclade R-S603
new sample YF02597 in subclade R-Y3454"

3794

I have a test pending at FTDNA for ZP69 which will hopefully get me a little further downstream.

And some more advice please - my STR marker matches show 16 people with the surnames Grisham/Gresham/Grissom and a similar number of Sinclair/St.Clairs exact or up to 2 markers off at 37 markers and around 7 Lowery the same. None of them show up as having a terminal SNP younger than L21. Given the suggested age of Z2961 in the YFULL study what does that mean for STR testing. Should I expect matches at 35/37 markers to also be at least Z2961 positive?

None of those men show up as matches at 67 markers where (apart from my son) I have only one match a bloke called Welsh with 60/67 markers also only L21.

laurie, My ZP69 test just came back. ZP69- as indicated by Big-Y. So now I'm Sanger verified z2961(xM222,xZP69). According to the DF49 SNP results your ZP69+ has come in too. So you're, by Sanger testing, z2961xM222>ZP69. Now we need someone else to come up ZP69+ that's not in your family. Can you email your THOMAS Big-Y match to see if he'll test for ZP69. Then we've proven that ZP69 is not a private SNP marker.
Time to order a new marker, if available yet. I wonder if there will be an April Fools sale :-)
dp

Update: The two SNPs I need to test aren't available. argg. no ZZs show up yet. These are the ZPs:
4222

laurie
04-10-2015, 01:52 AM
I've just received the Full genomes analysis of my Big Y results and would like to know if anyone would like me to share it with them. My FTDNA Kit # is N108400 and I have currently tested down to z2961 + and ZP69+

laurie
05-10-2015, 10:35 AM
And now also ZP106 negative

Bart
10-23-2015, 07:38 AM
Also now have the FGC analysis of my FTDNA BigY, although going to take me some time to work through as not as experienced as you guys, but will be spending more time over the autumn/winter to learn as I go.

Ditto as per laurie, shout if anyone wants to take a look to help expand the tree and/or guide me into where to focus on.

Bartholomew 338578 & RHSVB (Z2961+, ZP75/ZP76+, ZP77+, ZP92+)

Best regards,

Bart

01-04-2020, 09:57 PM
I am a Moran and a confirmed Z-2961 which is interesting all my other Moran’s are R-M222. Trying to understand this designation and it’s local within Ireland. Assuming my family which I know were Chiefs within the Ui Maine obviously aligned with the Kelly’s.

jdean
01-05-2020, 07:42 AM
I am a Moran and a confirmed Z-2961 which is interesting all my other Moran’s are R-M222. Trying to understand this designation and it’s local within Ireland. Assuming my family which I know were Chiefs within the Ui Maine obviously aligned with the Kelly’s.

Were you definitely confirmed M222 negative, can you request RAW data from 23&Me ?

Dubhthach
01-05-2020, 09:57 PM
I would suggest transfering your results into FTDNA and ordering a STR test. I imagine ye'll come back with fairly typical M222 str profile. If needs be you can always order M222 directly to confirm it.