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Mirix
10-11-2020, 02:33 PM
We now know thanks to least moves theory, greatest diversity that AfroAsiatic language originated somewhere in Northeast africa. Most scholars today say it's in the Horn of Africa and SouthernEastern Sahara adjacent regions The Origins of Afroasiatic (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8150287_The_Origins_of_Afroasiatic) and also the '' The geography of the M35/215 (or 215/M35) lineage, which is of Horn/East African origin, is largely concordant with the range of Afroasiatic''

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Expansion_of_Afroasiatic.svg/800px-Expansion_of_Afroasiatic.svg.png

Then that leads to the question where did the Cushitic branch originate? Because it's only historically/currently spoken in the Nile Valley and Eastern Africa. Some people suggested that the E-M78 lineage shows that cushitic speakers likely originated in Southern Egypt Haplogroup E-V68 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#Origins)

And the oldest currently known spoken and written cushitic language today remain Beja in Southern Egypt/Sudan adjacent regions (Blemmys as an ancient Beja language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blemmyes#Language)) With the Somali writing system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_inscriptions_in_Somalia) remaining undeciphered.

But then through historical linguistic analysis and reconstructions they have determined that Proto-Cushitic to have been spoken as far back as the Early Holocene. With this book Archaeology of African Plant Use (https://books.google.com/books?id=32-TDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA239) suggesting that it was spoken in the almost unknown areas North of Eritrea near the red sea. Northern Cushitic developed earliest around Eastern Sahara and other branches also broke out then spread southwards.

That book and other sources lack inclusion of recontruction of Lowland East Cushitic though and that gives it a bit of an incomplete picture.

NetNomad
10-19-2020, 06:17 PM
Personally, I think it first emerged roughly where the Beja live today. Also, the Beja vs all other Cushites split roughly coincides with this. However, this does not mean Bejas are identical to proto-Cushites. They have undergone many different admixture events (especially from peninsular Arabs, Egyptians, and various Nilotes).

beyoku
10-20-2020, 01:22 AM
They are historically pastoral languages so the range as far as origin could be quite large.

Tz85
10-20-2020, 02:10 AM
land of Cush.....East Africa, not too hard to figure out.

drobbah
10-20-2020, 02:52 AM
land of Cush.....East Africa, not too hard to figure out.
You have proof it originated in East Africa or is this another one of your one liner posts with no substance

As for my response to OP I think it originated in Lower Nubia,Upper Egypt or the Eastern Desert.

NetNomad
10-20-2020, 06:33 AM
land of Cush.....East Africa, not too hard to figure out.

East Africa is huge. It is like saying Indo-European originated in Eurasia.. Yeah, not quite informative. The debates people have about Indo-European is the Ukraine/Western Steppe vs Anatolia hypothesis. With Cushitic, people differ on whether it was the Nile Valley around the Egypt-Sudan border or the Horn proper (Ethiopia etc).

Mirix
10-20-2020, 12:56 PM
Personally, I think it first emerged roughly where the Beja live today. Also, the Beja vs all other Cushites split roughly coincides with this. However, this does not mean Bejas are identical to proto-Cushites. They have undergone many different admixture events (especially from peninsular Arabs, Egyptians, and various Nilotes).

It is not identical but considered the clostest to the Proto-Cushitic out of all the branches. I remember reading a work by Christopher Ehret and other renowned linguists they said that Beja, followed by Afar-Saho, is the most conservative form of Cushitic and thus closest to the Proto Cushitic language. Linguists use to believe that Beja was so conservative that at one point that it was it's own branch within Afro-Asiatic because other Cushitic languages had diverged so much.

Although Northern Somali clusters with Afar-Saho the Southern dialects interestingly do not probably because they are influenced by the cushitic languages spoken by the original Southern Cushites.

But i agree with your conclusion it is generally now agreed that the C group spoke a Cushitic language. With some also saying Kerma although they are split on that one. Taking all of this together we can safely say that where the beja lives (Northern Sudan/Upper Egypt) is the origin for cushitic language.

Please correct me if i am wrong.

Mirix
10-20-2020, 12:59 PM
land of Cush.....East Africa, not too hard to figure out.

I think you are confusing the historical name of Kush with the language classification of ''Cushitic''.

Tz85
10-21-2020, 01:30 AM
I think you are confusing the historical name of Kush with the language classification of ''Cushitic''.

Cute story, false, but cute. Glad we were able to clear that up. You might also wanna read up on the history of the letters C and K.

Cush is traditionally considered the eponymous ancestor of the people of the "land of Cush," an ancient territory that is believed to have been located on either side or both sides of the Red Sea. As such, "Cush" is alternately identified in scripture with the Kingdom of Kush or ancient Ethiopia. The Cushitic languages are named after Cush.

The Encyclopędia Britannica: A Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, and General Literat.re. 6. C. Scribner's Sons. 1878. p. 729.

Farroukh
10-21-2020, 01:55 AM
Another brick in the wall. If we talk about Proto-Afro-Asiatic. Also let us keep in mind Natufian hypothesis too. In this case PAA branches (except Proto-Semitic) migrated to Africa from Levant (Proto-Cushitic is from Upper Egypt/Nubia?)
But E-M35 is too old (25 kya) haplogroup to be the earliest PAA speaker.

LOLL
10-21-2020, 02:28 AM
Another brick in the wall. If we talk about Proto-Afro-Asiatic. Also let us keep in mind Natufian hypothesis too. In this case PAA branches (except Proto-Semitic) migrated to Africa from Levant (Proto-Cushitic is from Upper Egypt/Nubia?)
But E-M35 is too old (25 kya) haplogroup to be the earliest PAA speaker.

I think you are mistaken the origin of Semitic language with Afro-Asiatic one. AA language most likely originate in Egypt or eastern desert like Cushitic probably.

drobbah
10-21-2020, 05:18 AM
The question I have is where did the split between North Cushitic (Agaw) and the more numerous East-South Cushitic branch occur? Was it in Sudan/Northern Eritrea or once they arrived in the Horn proper?

Omaar
10-21-2020, 12:04 PM
The question I have is where did the split between North Cushitic (Agaw) and the more numerous East-South Cushitic branch occur? Was it in Sudan/Northern Eritrea or once they arrived in the Horn proper?

There are six major subdivisions within the Cushitic family:

1) North Cushitic, or Beja
2) Central Cushitic (also known as Agau [Agaw, Agew]), with languages such as Bilin, Kemant, Kwara, Xamtage, and Awngi.
3) South Cushitic (spoken mainly in Tanzania), including Iraqw, Burunge, and Gorowa, the hybrid language Maʾa/Mbugu, and (in Kenya) Dahalo;
4)Highland East Cushitic, including Burji, Sidamo, Kambata, and Hadiyya;
5) Lowland East Cushitic, including Dasenech, Arbore, Saho-Afar, and Oromo and its close relatives such as Konso;
6)Omo-Tana group, with languages such as Somali, Rendille, and Boni.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Cushitic-languages

drobbah
10-21-2020, 01:35 PM
There are six major subdivisions within the Cushitic family:

1) North Cushitic, or Beja
2) Central Cushitic (also known as Agau [Agaw, Agew]), with languages such as Bilin, Kemant, Kwara, Xamtage, and Awngi.
3) South Cushitic (spoken mainly in Tanzania), including Iraqw, Burunge, and Gorowa, the hybrid language Maʾa/Mbugu, and (in Kenya) Dahalo;
4)Highland East Cushitic, including Burji, Sidamo, Kambata, and Hadiyya;
5) Lowland East Cushitic, including Dasenech, Arbore, Saho-Afar, and Oromo and its close relatives such as Konso;
6)Omo-Tana group, with languages such as Somali, Rendille, and Boni.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Cushitic-languages
The Agaw (Northern Highland Cushitic) did split off from East-South Cushitic node.My question is where and when did this happen?

40456
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NetNomad
10-21-2020, 04:57 PM
The question I have is where did the split between North Cushitic (Agaw) and the more numerous East-South Cushitic branch occur? Was it in Sudan/Northern Eritrea or once they arrived in the Horn proper?

The odd autosomal genetics of nomadic NE Somalis and their lack of Ethiopian highland affinity makes me think the split occurred either in what is now Sudan itself or on the fringes of the Eritrean lowlands.

There is a small Paleo-Horner segment in this population, but I don't believe it is from Ethiopia, but rather from Somalia.

Mirix
10-21-2020, 07:26 PM
Cute story, false, but cute. Glad we were able to clear that up. You might also wanna read up on the history of the letters C and K.

Cush is traditionally considered the eponymous ancestor of the people of the "land of Cush," an ancient territory that is believed to have been located on either side or both sides of the Red Sea. As such, "Cush" is alternately identified in scripture with the Kingdom of Kush or ancient Ethiopia. The Cushitic languages are named after Cush.

The Encyclopędia Britannica: A Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, and General Literat.re. 6. C. Scribner's Sons. 1878. p. 729.

Kush historically was a term given to a wider Sudan Area, it doesn't necessarily connect to the languages which are named after the biblical term. As far as i know there is not a real historical or cultural association with that term and its speakers. And the language family has been historically spoken from Southern egypt to Tanzania

Just like the term Hamitic has no real connection .It's more or less a remnants of a colonial biblical centric approach to these languages and its people.

NetNomad
11-05-2020, 11:08 AM
Kush historically was a term given to a wider Sudan Area, it doesn't necessarily connect to the languages which are named after the biblical term. As far as i know there is not a real historical or cultural association with that term and its speakers. And the language family has been historically spoken from Southern egypt to Tanzania

Just like the term Hamitic has no real connection .It's more or less a remnants of a colonial biblical centric approach to these languages and its people.

Are there any other alternative names for Cushitic used by linguists/anthropologists? If not, what do you think would be an appropriate alternative.

Mirix
11-05-2020, 10:47 PM
Are there any other alternative names for Cushitic used by linguists/anthropologists? If not, what do you think would be an appropriate alternative.

No unfortunately, i would actually like it to be a common word that the language speakers share , maybe even a proto term.

Awale
11-09-2020, 10:38 PM
Are there any other alternative names for Cushitic used by linguists/anthropologists? If not, what do you think would be an appropriate alternative.

I've been hunting for one for ages. Erythraeic was one I was hip to for a good while because it's geographical in nature and references the Red Sea even though I admit the "Erythraean sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythraean_Sea)" of antiquity was not exactly the Red Sea. But lately I dunno.


No unfortunately, i would actually like it to be a common word that the language speakers share , maybe even a proto term.

This. I've been hunting for cognates for ages now. I've noticed "Af" is a very deep one which is cool because it's usually the word for "mouth" and also "language" in many of these languages it appears in, sort of like how "tongue" is sometimes used to refer to a language in English. Many East Cushitic languages are even named using it:

Af Soomaali
Afaan Oromoo
Qafar Af
Sidaamu Afoo

It even appears in Ethiosemitic languages with Agaw substrates like Amharic & Tigrinya as the word for "mouth" ("አፍ/Afi"). Even the Beja word for "mouth" which is "Yēf" (https://drive.google.com/file/d/15mKS5u6kSOgB1buxyLi7wwixb0ILVwac/view?usp=sharing) seems to share a root with it though Agamenon would have to double check me on that. Might be very fitting to name the branch "Afitic" or "Afetic" or something like that. Seems too fitting a cognate to pass up.

Targum
11-10-2020, 07:24 PM
I've been hunting for one for ages. Erythraeic was one I was hip to for a good while because it's geographical in nature and references the Red Sea even though I admit the "Erythraean sea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythraean_Sea)" of antiquity was not exactly the Red Sea. But lately I dunno.



This. I've been hunting for cognates for ages now. I've noticed "Af" is a very deep one which is cool because it's usually the word for "mouth" and also "language" in many of these languages it appears in, sort of like how "tongue" is sometimes used to refer to a language in English. Many East Cushitic languages are even named using it:

Af Soomaali
Afaan Oromoo
Qafar Af
Sidaamu Afoo

It even appears in Ethiosemitic languages with Agaw substrates like Amharic & Tigrinya as the word for "mouth" ("አፍ/Afi"). Even the Beja word for "mouth" which is "Yēf" (https://drive.google.com/file/d/15mKS5u6kSOgB1buxyLi7wwixb0ILVwac/view?usp=sharing) seems to share a root with it though Agamenon would have to double check me on that. Might be very fitting to name the branch "Afitic" or "Afetic" or something like that. Seems too fitting a cognate to pass up.

probably coincidence, but "af" אף is"nose", in Hebrew and its cognate "anf", is nose in Arabic. It also, presumably because of two nostrils, gets put in Hebrew into the dual plural אפיים apayim.

Michalis Moriopoulos
11-10-2020, 08:22 PM
Are there any other alternative names for Cushitic used by linguists/anthropologists? If not, what do you think would be an appropriate alternative.

No kidding, I hate these stupid biblical terms. But I think we're stuck with "Semitic" and "Cushitic." I always thought Syrio-Erythraean would be a decent replacement name for Semitic (along the lines of "Indo-European"), but I don't have a good alternative for Cushitic. I think Awale's "Erythraic" suggestion isn't half-bad but then again the Red Sea borders Arabia, too, and that name would create confusion if Syrio-Erythraean was used for Semitic. A more Latinate or Greek way of saying Horn or Horn of Africa might sound like a good option, but the names for these aren't very attractive, either.

From Wikipedia:
"Ancient Greeks and Romans referred to it as Regio Aromatica or Regio Cinnamonifora due to the aromatic plants or as Regio Incognita owing to its uncharted territory. In ancient and medieval times, the Horn of Africa was referred to as the Bilad al Barbar ("Land of the Berbers")."

I don't think Horners would appreciate being called "Aromatic" or "Barbaric" speakers. :lol:


No unfortunately, i would actually like it to be a common word that the language speakers share , maybe even a proto term.

That's a better idea.

Awale
11-16-2020, 07:27 PM
probably coincidence, but "af" אף is"nose", in Hebrew and its cognate "anf", is nose in Arabic. It also, presumably because of two nostrils, gets put in Hebrew into the dual plural אפיים apayim.

Kinda has me remembering the word for "mouth" in Arabic which is "فم/Fm". Might be a coincidence too but I wouldn't be too shocked if the word for "mouth" in the ancestor Cushitic and Semitic share had at least an "f" in it. But cognates, or at least obvious ones, are fairly rare in AA. It's an Epipaleolithic language family afterall, unlike Proto-Indo-European being spoken as late as the metal age. But I've noticed some obvious cognates between the branches over the years nonetheless. One example is the word for "I":

Arabic: Ana
Somali: Ani
Tamazight: Nik
Coptic: Anok

Things are often quite different within the branches however where obvious cognates seem quite common:


East Cushitic
https://i.imgur.com/LA1Mzxa.jpg

West Semitic
https://i.imgur.com/tYf9XYF.png

Compared to Indo-European where you see lots of obvious cognates between pretty much all the branches:


https://i.imgur.com/FFEHvTQ.png

(made these myself years ago if you're wondering about the source)


No kidding, I hate these stupid biblical terms. But I think we're stuck with "Semitic" and "Cushitic." I always thought Syrio-Erythraean would be a decent replacement name for Semitic (along the lines of "Indo-European"), but I don't have a good alternative for Cushitic. I think Awale's "Erythraic" suggestion isn't half-bad but then again the Red Sea borders Arabia, too, and that name would create confusion if Syrio-Erythraean was used for Semitic. A more Latinate or Greek way of saying Horn or Horn of Africa might sound like a good option, but the names for these aren't very attractive, either.

I think it's quite possible for "Cushitic". All you'd ostensibly have to do is convince the current scholars of Somali (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_studies) & Ethiopian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_studies) studies, who for better or worse don't amount to that many people, and that might very well do it. Scholars outside of this group and outside of the Horn itself will most likely follow suit thanks to political correctness. Basically trying to respect how the local scholars of the Horn prefer to refer to the language grouping. Semitic is another matter entirely. Arabs, Jews, Habeshas and even remnant Aramaic speaking groups here and there... way too many "Semites" spread out over far too many countries and Semitic studies is understandably a bloody behemoth. Nothing is impossible but I find it incredibly unlikely that anyone will make a new name for Semitic catch on. Personally, if it could be done I was always a fan of Agamemnon's "Syro-Ethiopian" or perhaps something more short like "Sinaitic" given that it entered the region from NE Africa through the Sinai, as did the infamous Semitic writing systems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Sinaitic_script) that are responsible for borderline every writing system in the Old World outside of the Sinitic descended or inspired ones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_family_of_scripts).