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J Man
10-14-2020, 06:08 PM
A thread for the discussion of all things about the tribes of Montenegro. I find them all to be very interesting but personally I find the PjeÜivci and Cuce tribes to be the most interesting since they are both dominated by Y-DNA haplogroup J2a. In regards to Y-DNA results of the various tribes many are included in the Serbian DNA Project.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribes_of_Montenegro

https://www.montenegro.travel/en/info/tribal-tradition-nova

https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/

J Man
10-16-2020, 12:39 AM
Some information about the old regions of Montenegro in which the tribes lived.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Montenegro

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brda_(Montenegro)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Herzegovina

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrin_Littoral

Pribislav
10-16-2020, 04:40 PM
Most of the major Montenegrin tribes are already phylogenetically profiled in Serbian DNA Project:


Vasojevići: E-V13>Y30977>Y37092>Y126722 (https://yfull.com/live/tree/E-Y126722/)


Kuči: E-V13>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>S2972>Z16661>BY165837 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-BY165837/)


Bjelopavlići: E-V13>CTS1273>Z5017>CTS9320>Z16988>BY34282>BY155704>Z13591 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-Z13591/)


Bjelice: E-V13>CTS1273>Z5017>Z19851>A18833>FT104106 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-FT104106/)


Drobnjaci, Šaranci and Uskoci: I1-P109>FGC16678>S14887>Y11203>FGC22046>FGC22045 (https://yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22045/)


Nikšići and Rovca: I2-PH908>FT14506>Y179535>Y52621>FT190799 (https://yfull.com/tree/I-FT190799/)


Ozrinići: I2-PH908>BY93199 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/I;name=I-BY93199)


Piperi: R1b-Z2103>Z2106>Z2110>CTS1450>Y10789>Z2705>FT48939>FT49714 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-FT49714/)


Banjani and Pivljani: N2-Y6503>P189.2>Y7310>Y7313>FGC28435 (https://yfull.com/tree/N-FGC28435/)


Several tribes have only one member with NGS test done at the moment, so we know deeper subclades to which they belong, but they are not actually profiled yet:


Cuce and Pješivci: J2a-M410>M67>Z500>M92>S8230>PH2651 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH2651/)

Cuce and Pješivci will split clade PH2651 in YFull as they are Z38463+ and PH2651-. They are already classified as Z38463>SK1357>SK1356 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/J;name=J-SK1356) in FTDNA tree.


Morača: R1b-U152>Z36>CTS5531>Z37>Y91536* (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y91536/)


Bratonožići: Q2-L275>F1213>M378>L245>Y2998>Y2209>BZ3000 (https://yfull.com/tree/Q-BZ3000/)


There is also a genetic cluster that represents the former Kriči tribe that originated in northern Montenegro, but doesn't exist as a tribe today. They were defeated and dispersed by Drobnjaci tribe in the Middle Ages, so most of it's members today live outside of Montenegro:

Kriči: J2b1-M205>CTS1969>YP51>Y22075>A11525>Y22059 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/)


40351

J Man
10-16-2020, 05:28 PM
^An excellent breakdown of the tribal results thank you Pribislav. To add to this from what I remember reading on the Serbian DNA Project forum the Pastrovici tribe has some G2a and J2a-L70 among them and the Sotonici tribe from Crmnica is mostly J2a-Z6065 so far. Also I think that some G2a may exist in Moraca as well.

Cascio
10-16-2020, 09:16 PM
How did R1b-Z36 get to Moraca?

J Man
10-18-2020, 01:20 PM
How did R1b-Z36 get to Moraca?

Your guess is as good as ours at this point.

vasil
10-22-2020, 08:05 PM
How do you know J2b1 represents dispersed Krici? I find J2b1 really interesting because its basically the only major balkan haplogroup that we have not really figured out yet.

Pribislav
10-22-2020, 09:55 PM
How do you know J2b1 represents dispersed Krici? I find J2b1 really interesting because its basically the only major balkan haplogroup that we have not really figured out yet.

I didn't say all Serbian J2b1 descend from Kriči tribe, but one part of them definitely does. Several members of this clade who trace their roots to Montenegro have kept tribal name as a part of their last name, for example Kričak, Krička and Kričković/Kličković.

vasil
10-22-2020, 10:33 PM
If a big part of it originates from Krici it would mean that all of it would have separated somewhere in the vicinity since its TMRCA of 900ybp according to Yfull is so small. So if they were somewhere around northern montenegro 500 years ago its very likely they were in the same region 400 years before that.

xenus
10-23-2020, 12:27 AM
How did R1b-Z36 get to Moraca?

Do you mean a specific branch?

R1b-Z36 pops up all over the place.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/r-z36/

Scrolling quickly I see Croatia, Slovenia, Serbia, and Hungary here.

I'm curious as to how long its been in the region.

J Man
10-30-2020, 06:22 PM
An interesting article about the haplogroup results of a number of different families/brotherhoods/clans from Montenegro.

https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=sr&u=https://www.poreklo.rs/2017/07/16/vlastela-u-crnoj-gori-prema-narodnim-predanjima/&prev=search

J Man
11-09-2020, 01:54 AM
Pješivci tribe


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pje%C5%A1ivci

http://www.montenegro.org.au/pleme_pjesivci.html

https://www.poreklo.rs/2013/06/25/pleme-pjesivci/

J Man
11-14-2020, 02:37 AM
Cuce tribe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuce

http://www.montenegro.org.au/pleme_cuce.html

https://www.poreklo.rs/2017/02/20/poreklo-stanovnistva-plemena-cuca/

J Man
01-06-2021, 07:00 PM
Komani tribe

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komani_(Crnogorci)

http://www.montenegro.org.au/pleme_komani.html

Sorcelow
01-06-2021, 07:04 PM
To what extent are these groups actually tribes? Wouldnt that imply social, linguistic, and cultural differences between them? Wouldn’t it be more accurate to classify them as clans?

J Man
01-06-2021, 09:27 PM
To what extent are these groups actually tribes? Wouldnt that imply social, linguistic, and cultural differences between them? Wouldn’t it be more accurate to classify them as clans?

Sorcelow they are very much so tribes. "Tribes" can exist within a culturally homogeneous region. They have been studied extensively by social scientists for many years. A tribe is a geopolitical unit that is not always of the "same blood" or ancestry. It is an alliance of clans or families in a certain area for economic and military cooperation. In Montenegrin/Serbian they are called "Pleme"....The tribes/plemena (plural) are made up of patrilineal based clans which in Montenegrin/Serbian are called bratstvo (plural bratstva). Not all clans/bratstva within a tribe/pleme are related by blood all of the time but they are united for economic partnership and defense.

J Man
01-08-2021, 05:41 AM
Ozrinići tribe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozrini%C4%87i_(tribe)

http://www.montenegro.org.au/pleme_ozrinici.html

J Man
01-10-2021, 01:57 AM
Bjelice tribe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjelice

http://www.montenegro.org.au/pleme_bjelice.html

https://www.poreklo.rs/2016/10/05/pleme-bjelice/

Jatt1
01-10-2021, 02:41 AM
Most of the major Montenegrin tribes are already phylogenetically profiled in Serbian DNA Project:


Vasojevići: E-V13>Y30977>Y37092>Y126722 (https://yfull.com/live/tree/E-Y126722/)


Kuči: E-V13>CTS1273>Z5018>S2979>S2972>Z16661>BY165837 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-BY165837/)


Bjelopavlići: E-V13>CTS1273>Z5017>CTS9320>Z16988>BY34282>BY155704>Z13591 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-Z13591/)


Bjelice: E-V13>CTS1273>Z5017>Z19851>A18833>FT104106 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-FT104106/)


Drobnjaci, Šaranci and Uskoci: I1-P109>FGC16678>S14887>Y11203>FGC22046>FGC22045 (https://yfull.com/tree/I-FGC22045/)


Nikšići and Rovca: I2-PH908>FT14506>Y179535>Y52621>FT190799 (https://yfull.com/tree/I-FT190799/)


Ozrinići: I2-PH908>BY93199 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/I;name=I-BY93199)


Piperi: R1b-Z2103>Z2106>Z2110>CTS1450>Y10789>Z2705>FT48939>FT49714 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-FT49714/)


Banjani and Pivljani: N2-Y6503>P189.2>Y7310>Y7313>FGC28435 (https://yfull.com/tree/N-FGC28435/)


Several tribes have only one member with NGS test done at the moment, so we know deeper subclades to which they belong, but they are not actually profiled yet:


Cuce and Pješivci: J2a-M410>M67>Z500>M92>S8230>PH2651 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH2651/)

Cuce and Pješivci will split clade PH2651 in YFull as they are Z38463+ and PH2651-. They are already classified as Z38463>SK1357>SK1356 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/J;name=J-SK1356) in FTDNA tree.


Morača: R1b-U152>Z36>CTS5531>Z37>Y91536* (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y91536/)


Bratonožići: Q2-L275>F1213>M378>L245>Y2998>Y2209>BZ3000 (https://yfull.com/tree/Q-BZ3000/)


There is also a genetic cluster that represents the former Kriči tribe that originated in northern Montenegro, but doesn't exist as a tribe today. They were defeated and dispersed by Drobnjaci tribe in the Middle Ages, so most of it's members today live outside of Montenegro:

Kriči: J2b1-M205>CTS1969>YP51>Y22075>A11525>Y22059 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/)


40351

What haplogroup the Nikolic' be under?

J Man
01-12-2021, 05:44 PM
What haplogroup the Nikolic' be under?

Nikolic is a surname that exists among a number of different tribes from different parts on Montenegro. You have to be a bit more specific.

Pribislav
03-01-2021, 01:18 PM
Several tribes have only one member with NGS test done at the moment, so we know deeper subclades to which they belong, but they are not actually profiled yet:


Cuce and Pješivci: J2a-M410>M67>Z500>M92>S8230>PH2651 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH2651/)

Cuce and Pješivci will split clade PH2651 in YFull as they are Z38463+ and PH2651-. They are already classified as Z38463>SK1357>SK1356 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/J;name=J-SK1356) in FTDNA tree.


Important update concerning Cuce and Pješivci tribes. Four members of Pješivci and Cuce cluster recently uploaded their BAMs to YFull, and new subclade below SK1356 encompassing both of these tribes is already visible in YFull's live tree:

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-Y230579/ (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-Y230579/)

Additionally, two members of Pješivci tribe formed their own subclade BY102150 below Y230579. Three more samples have been added to upstream levels in the last few days, one Qatari sample to SK1357*, and two HGDP Brahui samples from Pakistan to SK1357>SK1356*. TMRCA for clade SK1357 is currently 3500 years, we'll see how much it will change after all these new samples are added into equation.


EDIT:


Two members of the Cuce tribe formed their own subclade as well:

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-FT413312/ (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-FT413312/)


Brahui samples also formed their own subclade:

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-BY55074/ (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-BY55074/)

J Man
03-03-2021, 06:17 PM
Important update concerning Cuce and Pješivci tribes. Four members of Pješivci and Cuce cluster recently uploaded their BAMs to YFull, and new subclade below SK1356 encompassing both of these tribes is already visible in YFull's live tree:

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-Y230579/ (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-Y230579/)

Additionally, two members of Pješivci tribe formed their own subclade BY102150 below Y230579. Three more samples have been added to upstream levels in the last few days, one Qatari sample to SK1357*, and two HGDP Brahui samples from Pakistan to SK1357>SK1356*. TMRCA for clade SK1357 is currently 3500 years, we'll see how much it will change after all these new samples are added into equation.


EDIT:


Two members of the Cuce tribe formed their own subclade as well:

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-FT413312/ (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-FT413312/)


Brahui samples also formed their own subclade:

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-BY55074/ (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-BY55074/)

An article about these results has been published on Poreklo. :)

https://www.poreklo.rs/2021/03/02/otkrivene-genetski-profilisane-y-dnk-podgrane-pjesivaca-i-cuca-haplogrupa-j2a-m92/

Pribislav
03-06-2021, 05:40 PM
It is official now, two members of Serbian DNA project whose families were described in literature as descending from Bukumiri tribe belong to the same subclade below R1b-Z2705.


Bukumiri: R1b-Z2705>Y32147>FT166340>Y37280>Y83258>Y104972 (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-Y104972/)


Bukumiri were living mainly in the territories of modern Bratonožići tribe, and to a lesser extent Kuči tribe. In the Ottoman defter of 1485. chief of one of the Bukumiri katuns had Slavic/Serbian name Radič Lazarev. Names of the other members of said katun were mixed, with Slavic/Serbian names being slightly more prevalent. The majority of non-slavic names sound more like being of Vlach than Albanian origin (Macukat, Đetaš, Bardaš, Buraš, Brabar, Juvaš, Bolič etc.), but I am no expert in this field. Maybe some of the Albanian members could chime in?

Kelmendasi
03-06-2021, 07:07 PM
It is official now, two members of Serbian DNA project whose families were described in literature as descending from Bukumiri tribe belong to the same subclade below R1b-Z2705.


Bukumiri: R1b-Z2705>Y32147>FT166340>Y37280>Y83258>Y104972 (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-Y104972/)


Bukumiri were living mainly in the territories of modern Bratonožići tribe, and to a lesser extent Kuči tribe. In the Ottoman defter of 1485. chief of one of the Bukumiri katuns had Slavic/Serbian name Radič Lazarev. Names of the other members of said katun were mixed, with Slavic/Serbian names being slightly more prevalent. The majority of non-slavic names sound more like being of Vlach than Albanian origin (Macukat, Đetaš, Bardaš, Buraš, Brabar, Juvaš, Bolič etc.), but I am no expert in this field. Maybe some of the Albanian members could chime in?
The chief settlement of the katun or semi-nomadic pastoralist community of Buk(Ű)mir (also rendered as Bukumir), located in the nahiyah of Piperi, was Istrahaliq or Istrahalić with a total of forty households being recorded in the Ottoman register or defter of the Sanjak of Shkodra of 1485 (albeit the nahiyah itself was covered in 1497). The inhabitants of this settlement had initially arrived from the settlement of Veternik alongside a branch of the Albanian Bushati who also founded a katun in the nahiyah. It is true that the majority of the anthroponyms recorded in this settlement were of Slavic providence (e.g., Vojko, Radko, Vukoslav, etc), which in my opinion suggests that the settlement either had a mixed population or that by this point in time a process of Slavicization was taking place either due to migrations, cultural influence, or ecclesiastical influence from the Orthodox Church. However, there are a number of non-Slavic names which are Albanian in origin, these include names such as; NikŰ, Lekaš, Nikaš, Gjonko, Bardash, Tolja, Gjinash, etc. The name Bardash is more likely than not the Albanian anthroponym BardhŰ (recorded as Bard), which was not uncommon and is derived from the Albanian bardhŰ (white), with the suffix -ash, similar to how Gjinash is a variant of Gjin with the same suffix. Perhaps this is from Vlach influence, however I am not that well-read on their anthroponymy, could also be Albanian or from another source. As for Gjetash and Burash, I think it is possible that the former is related to the Albanian name GjetŰ (variants include Gjeto and Gjeta) with the suffix -ash, whilst the latter could be related to the Albanian burrŰ (man) with the aforementioned suffix however I am just speculating on this one. I also found it interesting that there is mention of a Nikaš, son of Prajanko; who was a Catholic friar.

It is also worth mentioning that in the same defter the settlement of Bukmira is recorded, belonging to the same fis or tribal community. This settlement was a derbendci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dervendjis) community located in north-western Albania, likely corresponding to the modern settlement of BukmirŰ in the highlands of Suma. The personal names recorded in this settlement are overwhelmingly Albanian and there is also attestation of individuals stemming from other communities such as the Kuši (e.g., LekŰ Kuši). Individuals belonging to branches of the Bukmiri are also recorded in multiple other settlements attested in the register.

The Bukmiri themselves are first recorded in the late fourteenth century, with a Catholic priest by the name of Gjon BukŰmiri from the town of Drisht in north-western Albania joining the monastery of Trogir in Dalmatia in 1340. They are then recorded in the Venetian cadastre of Scutari of 1416-1417 with Aleks Bukamiri being recorded in the settlement of ShŰnkoll i Kakariqi which now is Blinisht located to the north of Lezha, and a Gjergj Bukamiri from Trushi i Madh located near the banks of the Buna River being recorded. So it is clear that this tribe had been around prior to the Ottoman occupation, but it is only in the years following the establishment of the Ottomans that they seem to have expanded and set up branches even in Montenegro where they were likely Slavicized or had been displaced.

Rrenjet.
03-06-2021, 07:26 PM
The name Bardash is more likely than not the Albanian anthroponym BardhŰ (recorded as Bard), which was not uncommon, with the suffix -ash, similar to how Gjinash is a variant of Gjin with the same suffix. Perhaps this is from Vlach influence, however I am not that well-read on their anthroponymy, could also be Albanian or from another source.

Names ending in -ash are quite common among Highland Albanians, see Mirash, Lulash, Pretash, etc. As you mentioned, they usually have obvious meanings in Albanian.

Kelmendasi
03-06-2021, 08:07 PM
Names ending in -ash are quite common among Highland Albanians, see Mirash, Lulash, Pretash, etc. As you mentioned, they usually have obvious meanings in Albanian.
Great point, completely forgot about those names.

Bruzmi
03-06-2021, 10:53 PM
However, there are a number of non-Slavic names which are Albanian in origin, these include names such as; NikŰ, Lekaš, Nikaš, Gjonko, Bardash, Tolja, Gjinash, etc. The name Bardash is more likely than not the Albanian anthroponym BardhŰ (recorded as Bard), which was not uncommon, with the suffix -ash, similar to how Gjinash is a variant of Gjin with the same suffix. Perhaps this is from Vlach influence, however I am not that well-read on their anthroponymy, could also be Albanian or from another source. As for Gjetash and Burash, I think it is possible that the former is related to the Albanian name GjetŰ (variants include Gjeto and Gjeta) with the suffix -ash, whilst the latter could be related to the Albanian burrŰ (man) with the aforementioned suffix however I am just speculating on this one.

The voiced dental fricative /­/ (transcribed as /d/ in Slavic languages) is the marker which shows why the names could only have been recorded via Albanian.

Proto-Albanian *bardza (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Albanian/bardza) produced:
Albanian bar/dh/Ű (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bardh%C3%AB), /dz/ (see Arvanitic Bartzokas (https://forebears.io/surnames/bartzokas)-Bardhokas) and /z/ see Burmadhi-Burmazi)
Aromanian bardzu (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bardzu)
Romanian barz (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/barz#Romanian) which Romanian shepherds brought to the north where it became
Ukrainian barzij (http://macedonia.kroraina.com/rs/rs14_7.pdf) (black sheep or goat with white spots)

Aromanian and Romanian only have one of the develoments of PA *bardza either because Proto-Albanian stopped being productive (as the language shift was finalized) or because the terms entered Eastern Balkan Romance as loanwords from dialects which used /dz/ and /z/ (less likely). Therefore, the name "Bardash" could have been recorded only as the name of an Albanian-speaker

Exercitus
03-08-2021, 11:18 AM
Actually those names with the -ash suffix are pan-albanian (Gheg & Tosk) and i must emphasize the fact that these onomastics are typical Christian Albanian!!

- Albanian village: Dhimitri Macuka, Morea \ Peloponnese year 1463
The Arnavudan\Albanian Jani and Petro Macuka.

https://i.imgur.com/dEq8glI.jpg

- Mixed Greek-Albanian village: Limni, northern Euboea year 1474
The Albanian Leka Macuka

https://i.imgur.com/4SkkDcA.jpg


- Albanian village: Qinam, Southeastern Albania year 1422
Gjinash, Gumash and Gjec - the Albanian name Guma as a abbrevation of the biblical onomastic Jacob.

https://i.imgur.com/yLwhI9n.jpg

- Albanian village: Mateshi, Morea \ Peloponnese year 1463
The tosk Albanians Mirash Buzbardhi (buze bardh from alb. white lips) and Progon Mateshi (see: - esh suffix)

https://i.imgur.com/4s7JlDd.jpg

- Christian Albanian Timarli, Tirhala \ Trikala, central Greece year 1454.
https://i.imgur.com/YmBZggp.jpg

Lumsha\Lumash Pelegrini and Bogash Lumsha\Lumashi, see "Lumassius de Priserend" - the Albanian Lumash from Prizren, XIV century, at "Ipeshkvia Shkup Prizren neper shekuj" from Dom Gasper Gjini.
Also notice: Pelegrin and Gjoni sons of Bogoslav !
The Albanian name Lum\Lumash means happy\lucky, as the Vlachic equivalent Bucur\Bucura. Etymology 2- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lum%C3%AB#Albanian

The number of Vlachs in south Montenegro, during the XV century in the basis of the onomastic data's obtained from the Ottoman Defters, were insignificant, compared with the Albanian and Serbian ones!!

Exercitus
03-08-2021, 11:25 AM
Also:

- Albanian village, Buzbardhi, Morea\Peloponnese year 1463
The tosk Alnanians: Gjin Mirushi (see: the - ush\ushi suffix) Bardhi Buzbardhi and Jani Klisha (from old alb. Church)

https://i.imgur.com/cQEuAoQ.jpg