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BalkanKiwi
10-18-2020, 12:21 AM
Hi friends,

This section seems the most appropriate place to post this question, as all of you are more knowledgeable than me in Spanish history.

To start with, my grandfather's known ancestry is Scottish, English and Ashkenazi. On myOrigins V3 he has 3% Basque. My mother gets 2% Basque. My sister and I don't get any. When the update came along I ignored it, but now I'm curious so I've done some quick investigating.

Grandfather's V3

Central Europe - 42%
Great Britain - 41%
Scandinavia - 9%
Ashkenazi Jewish - 5%
Basque - 3%
Greece & Balkans - <1%

On most calculators he gets between 5-10% Basque on average. I've attempted to model him and myself with Basque Spanish to see what comes up.

Scaled with penalty:

Grandfather

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.4144
Results:Scottish60
English33
Basque Spanish4.5
Ashkenazi Poland2.5

Me

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BalkanKiwi
Fit:0.9213
Results:Irish51.5
Scottish28
Croatian12.5
Lebanese Christian4
Basque Spanish3
Papuan1

I'm currently not overly active on the forum, so I'm not sure with the V3 update if Basque has become more common among those with British ancestry. I know if its real, its likely not from my father's side, as he only gets 1% at the most when modelling.

Is Basque DNA distinct enough that if it shows up often enough, it's likely an indicator of minor ancestry from the area? If so, is it possible its connected to the Ashkenazi, or would it be more associated with Sephardic Jews? Or, is it not real, and is simply just acting as a proxy for something else?

EDIT:

G25 Modern Averages scaled for grandfather:

Distance: 2.1387% / 0.02138708
69.4 Orcadian
15.6 Shetlandic
8.8 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
5.0 Spanish_Asturias
0.8 Yemenite_Jew
0.2 Gupta
0.2 Koinanbe

timberwolf
10-18-2020, 12:47 AM
Hi friends,

This section seems the most appropriate place to post this question, as all of you are more knowledgeable than me in Spanish history.

To start with, my grandfather's known ancestry is Scottish, English and Ashkenazi. On myOrigins V3 he has 3% Basque. My mother gets 2% Basque. My sister and I don't get any. When the update came along I ignored it, but now I'm curious so I've done some quick investigating.

Grandfather's V3

Central Europe - 42%
Great Britain - 41%
Scandinavia - 9%
Ashkenazi Jewish - 5%
Basque - 3%
Greece & Balkans - <1%

On various calculators he gets 2-3% Basque. I've attempted to model him and myself with Basque Spanish to see what comes up.

Scaled with penalty:

Grandfather

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.4144
Results:Scottish60
English33
Basque Spanish4.5
Ashkenazi Poland2.5

Me

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BalkanKiwi
Fit:0.9213
Results:Irish51.5
Scottish28
Croatian12.5
Lebanese Christian4
Basque Spanish3
Papuan1

I'm currently not overly active on the forum, so I'm not sure with the V3 update if Basque has become more common among those with British ancestry. I know if its real, its likely not from my father's side, as he only gets 1% at the most when modelling.

Is Basque DNA distinct enough that if it shows up often enough, it's likely an indicator of minor ancestry from the area? If so, is it possible its connected to the Ashkenazi, or would it be more associated with Sephardic Jews? Or, is it not real, and is simply just acting as a proxy for something else?

I often get Basque on many calculators and if I don't get Basque I get Iberian and my paper trail is British.

Where did you get the penalty result for yourself and your grandfather, what tool did you use?

BalkanKiwi
10-18-2020, 12:52 AM
I often get Basque on many calculators and if I don't get Basque I get Iberian and my paper trail is British.

Where did you get the penalty result for yourself and your grandfather, what tool did you use?

Interesting. I use GenoPlot. I forgot to add the G25 Modern Averages results for my grandfather, which I've added to the first post.

I haven't seen your myOrigins V3 results. Has it given you/any family members Basque at all? As I said, perhaps this is just a normal thing among those with British ancestry.

timberwolf
10-18-2020, 01:07 AM
With their update no. I got BI 68 Ireland 22 Iberian 7 and Central Europe 3

G25 unscaled and no penalty

Target: Timberwolf
Distance: 0.2589% / 0.00258868
60.2 Irish
11.4 Belgian
8.8 Dutch
6.4 Welsh
5.0 Basque_Spanish
4.6 Basque_French
2.6 German
0.4 Mlabri
0.4 Swedish
0.2 Mbuti

timberwolf
10-18-2020, 01:21 AM
With G25 Scaled I still get Basque at 0.5x

Target: Timberwolf_scaled
Distance: 1.6927% / 0.01692670 | ADC: 0.5x
87.6 English_Cornwall
9.0 Irish
3.4 Basque_French

Target: Timberwolf_scaled
Distance: 1.6099% / 0.01609864 | ADC: 0.25x
51.6 English_Cornwall
35.0 Irish
10.4 Basque_French
1.8 Shetlandic
1.2 French_Seine-Maritime

Target: Timberwolf_scaled
Distance: 1.5800% / 0.01579953
31.6 Irish
26.2 English_Cornwall
17.0 Basque_French
15.2 Shetlandic
9.8 Icelandic
0.2 Igorot

BalkanKiwi
10-18-2020, 01:26 AM
With G25 Scaled I still get Basque at 0.5x

Target: Timberwolf_scaled
Distance: 1.6927% / 0.01692670 | ADC: 0.5x
87.6 English_Cornwall
9.0 Irish
3.4 Basque_French

Target: Timberwolf_scaled
Distance: 1.6099% / 0.01609864 | ADC: 0.25x
51.6 English_Cornwall
35.0 Irish
10.4 Basque_French
1.8 Shetlandic
1.2 French_Seine-Maritime

Target: Timberwolf_scaled
Distance: 1.5800% / 0.01579953
31.6 Irish
26.2 English_Cornwall
17.0 Basque_French
15.2 Shetlandic
9.8 Icelandic
0.2 Igorot

So we have something to compare to. I assume Basque Spanish and Basque French are somewhat genetically similar?

Grandfather scaled:

Distance: 2.1525% / 0.02152476 | ADC: 0.25x
79.8 Orcadian
11.2 Spanish_Asturias
5.8 Shetlandic
2.0 Scottish
1.2 Spanish_Pais_Vasco

Distance: 2.2035% / 0.02203475 | ADC: 0.5x
81.8 Orcadian
11.2 English_Cornwall
7.0 Spanish_Asturias

timberwolf
10-18-2020, 01:33 AM
So we have something to compare to. I assume Basque Spanish and Basque French are somewhat genetically similar?

Grandfather scaled:

Distance: 2.1525% / 0.02152476 | ADC: 0.25x
79.8 Orcadian
11.2 Spanish_Asturias
5.8 Shetlandic
2.0 Scottish
1.2 Spanish_Pais_Vasco

Distance: 2.2035% / 0.02203475 | ADC: 0.5x
81.8 Orcadian
11.2 English_Cornwall
7.0 Spanish_Asturias

Yeah, I would not imagine there would be significant differences between Basques in France and Spain.

I always say that any model that gives me about 50% Cornish is a really good model for me.

BalkanKiwi
10-18-2020, 01:40 AM
Yeah, I would not imagine there would be significant differences between Basques in France and Spain.

I always say that any model that gives me about 50% Cornish is a really good model for me.

The ADC: 0.25x for you is a pretty good fit then!

rober_tce
10-18-2020, 04:27 AM
Hi BalkanKiwi!!!

The Basque component in both samples is similar. Basque spanish and Basque french are very closer geneticaly.

Your ancestor is Ashkenazi, don't you? Where is he/she from? After 1492 and 1496, some Sepharadim Jewish mírate to East Europe and mixed with Ashkenazim communities. Maybe it could be a posibility, if we take in consideration you score spanish in some calculators.

Also we can consider another hypothesis, as spanish/Basque results could be ancient components. People of peninsular Bell Beakers cultures for example migrated to British Islands and Ireland.

Do you have spanish matches? Have you could triangulate in some segment without pile up?

BalkanKiwi
10-18-2020, 05:24 AM
Hi BalkanKiwi!!!

The Basque component in both samples is similar. Basque spanish and Basque french are very closer geneticaly.

Your ancestor is Ashkenazi, don't you? Where is he/she from? After 1492 and 1496, some Sepharadim Jewish mírate to East Europe and mixed with Ashkenazim communities. Maybe it could be a posibility, if we take in consideration you score spanish in some calculators.

Also we can consider another hypothesis, as spanish/Basque results could be ancient components. People of peninsular Bell Beakers cultures for example migrated to British Islands and Ireland.

Do you have spanish matches? Have you could triangulate in some segment without pile up?

Hi rober_tce,

Thanks for the reply. On my Ashkenazi line, I can only go back as far as my 3rd great grandfather, who was born in Warsaw, Poland. For that reason alone, I don't know how plausible it would be for Jews from Eastern Europe to have Basque ancestry (unless, as you say, Sephardic Jews mixed, however he's never had Sephardic Jewish come up on a test). The other option is as you say, from ancient times.

Regarding matches, my grandfather has 34 Spanish matches on MyHeritage. Many of these matches have certain amounts of Ashkenazi ancestry, but there's a few that don't score any Ashkenazi and have mostly Iberian. There's a few matches with large amounts of Ashkenazi and Iberian as well, which makes it tricky. Most of the Spanish matches have only Spanish surnames listed under "Ancestral places", however I guess it seems Spain had a large influx of Ashkenazi Jews? I would assume its possible many of these Spanish matches have Ashkenazi ancestors they don't know about.

Ruderico
10-18-2020, 08:46 AM
So we have something to compare to. I assume Basque Spanish and Basque French are somewhat genetically similar?

Grandfather scaled:

Distance: 2.1525% / 0.02152476 | ADC: 0.25x
79.8 Orcadian
11.2 Spanish_Asturias
5.8 Shetlandic
2.0 Scottish
1.2 Spanish_Pais_Vasco

Distance: 2.2035% / 0.02203475 | ADC: 0.5x
81.8 Orcadian
11.2 English_Cornwall
7.0 Spanish_Asturias

Keep in mind Spanish_Pais_Vasco refers to non-Basque Spanish individuals in modern Basque Country, and tend to be a little bit more similar to NW Europeans than Spanish Basques are. Asturian isn't anywhere like Spanish_Basque (within the Iberian spectrum in G25), but they do likewise have residual central/east Med admixture. These Iberian - especially north Iberian - references might just be showing up as a proxy for a West European variation that has lower Steppe ancestry than NW Europeans have, which could be why small amounts of it improve the fit.

BalkanKiwi
10-18-2020, 09:15 AM
Keep in mind Spanish_Pais_Vasco refers to non-Basque Spanish individuals in modern Basque Country, and tend to be a little bit more similar to NW Europeans than Spanish Basques are. Asturian isn't anywhere like Spanish_Basque (within the Iberian spectrum in G25), but they do likewise have residual central/east Med admixture. These Iberian - especially north Iberian - references might just be showing up as a proxy for a West European variation that has lower Steppe ancestry than NW Europeans have, which could be why small amounts of it improve the fit.

Ah, interesting. Thanks. That makes sense. Is it likely the myOrigins Basque for my grandfather and mother is just another form of a proxy as well?

CyrylBojarski
10-18-2020, 09:42 AM
Hi rober_tce,

Thanks for the reply. On my Ashkenazi line, I can only go back as far as my 3rd great grandfather, who was born in Warsaw, Poland. For that reason alone, I don't know how plausible it would be for Jews from Eastern Europe to have Basque ancestry (unless, as you say, Sephardic Jews mixed, however he's never had Sephardic Jewish come up on a test). The other option is as you say, from ancient times.

Regarding matches, my grandfather has 34 Spanish matches on MyHeritage. Many of these matches have certain amounts of Ashkenazi ancestry, but there's a few that don't score any Ashkenazi and have mostly Iberian. There's a few matches with large amounts of Ashkenazi and Iberian as well, which makes it tricky. Most of the Spanish matches have only Spanish surnames listed under "Ancestral places", however I guess it seems Spain had a large influx of Ashkenazi Jews? I would assume its possible many of these Spanish matches have Ashkenazi ancestors they don't know about.

I doubt Spanish people can have Ashkenazi ancestry, how 23andme reads segments you match with them?

BalkanKiwi
10-18-2020, 09:59 AM
I doubt Spanish people can have Ashkenazi ancestry, how 23andme reads segments you match with them?

Out of those 34 Spanish matches on MyHeritage, at least 12 of these have varying amounts of Ashkenazi. I have no reason to lie to you.

CyrylBojarski
10-18-2020, 10:10 AM
Out of those 34 Spanish matches on MyHeritage, at least 12 of these have varying amounts of Ashkenazi. I have no reason to lie to you.

I understood, they can have Sephardic ancestry reading as Ashkenazi I mean

BalkanKiwi
10-18-2020, 10:19 AM
I understood, they can have Sephardic ancestry reading as Ashkenazi I mean

No worries, and since creating this thread and pondering, this is also my assumption. Interestingly all of these matches don't score any "Sephardic Jewish - North African". I don't know what the current consensus is around MyHeritage and their accuracy for Sephardic and Ashkenazi.

If Ruderico suggests the Basque is acting as a proxy, then perhaps most of these Spanish matches are just related to his Ashkenazi, and have nothing to do with shared Iberian ancestry.

CyrylBojarski
10-18-2020, 10:21 AM
No worries, and since creating this thread and pondering, this is also my assumption. Interestingly all of these matches don't score any "Sephardic Jewish - North African". I don't know what the current consensus is around MyHeritage and their accuracy for Sephardic and Ashkenazi.

If Ruderico suggests the Basque is acting as a proxy, then perhaps most of these Spanish matches are just related to his Ashkenazi, and have nothing to do with shared Iberian ancestry.

User rober_tce with distant Spanish Sephardic ancestry scores Ashkenazi and does not score North African Sephardic category

Ruderico
10-18-2020, 10:32 AM
Ah, interesting. Thanks. That makes sense. Is it likely the myOrigins Basque for my grandfather and mother is just another form of a proxy as well?

I don't really know because I'm not sure with how myOrigins makes those results, but that might be the case. If so it'd be a similar phenomenon to the very extreme Irish+Sardinian as a proxy for something akin to "NW European with low Steppe" in Iberia instead of the more specific Basque, which tends to have more WHG ancestry and less Steppe, in some Iberians.
Capitalis's clusters model (link (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21528-How-I-run-clustering-in-Past4-and-Excel&p=705817&viewfull=1#post705817))

Target: Ruderico
Distance: 0.4969% / 0.00496928
34.2 Irish_14
23.8 Sardegna_6
14.2 Aragón_13
10.2 Libyan_8
7.0 Ber_Tun_Chen_8
5.2 Shetlandic_14
4.0 Cataluña_13
0.8 Ber_Mor_Tiz_8
0.4 Fr_Basque_13
0.2 Sahrawi_8

rober_tce
10-18-2020, 10:56 AM
Hi rober_tce,

Thanks for the reply. On my Ashkenazi line, I can only go back as far as my 3rd great grandfather, who was born in Warsaw, Poland. For that reason alone, I don't know how plausible it would be for Jews from Eastern Europe to have Basque ancestry (unless, as you say, Sephardic Jews mixed, however he's never had Sephardic Jewish come up on a test). The other option is as you say, from ancient times.

Regarding matches, my grandfather has 34 Spanish matches on MyHeritage. Many of these matches have certain amounts of Ashkenazi ancestry, but there's a few that don't score any Ashkenazi and have mostly Iberian. There's a few matches with large amounts of Ashkenazi and Iberian as well, which makes it tricky. Most of the Spanish matches have only Spanish surnames listed under "Ancestral places", however I guess it seems Spain had a large influx of Ashkenazi Jews? I would assume its possible many of these Spanish matches have Ashkenazi ancestors they don't know about.

If you can triagulate your spanish matches in a particular chromosome and aren't in pile up regions, you could consider an iberian ancestor relatively modern (500 years or some more). If don't, it's probably your iberian results could be ancient, a common marker of Western Europe. This have relationship with the compositon of the spanish samples that Ruderico commented.

Ashkenazim Jewish didn't arrive to Iberia, at least there aren't narratives that talk about it. Iberian people who score Ashkenazi, if it's real, is due to Sepharadim heritage. As I have said before, iberian Jewish arrived to East Europe between 16th and 17th centuries, mixing some of them with Ashkenazim.

Ruderico
10-18-2020, 11:28 AM
I definitely agree with rober that segment triangulation might be your best bet to find this distant ancestry, that's how he found his small and distant Jewish ancestry too

Shadogowah
10-19-2020, 08:12 AM
If you can triagulate your spanish matches in a particular chromosome and aren't in pile up regions, you could consider an iberian ancestor relatively modern (500 years or some more). If don't, it's probably your iberian results could be ancient, a common marker of Western Europe. This have relationship with the compositon of the spanish samples that Ruderico commented.

Ashkenazim Jewish didn't arrive to Iberia, at least there aren't narratives that talk about it. Iberian people who score Ashkenazi, if it's real, is due to Sepharadim heritage. As I have said before, iberian Jewish arrived to East Europe between 16th and 17th centuries, mixing some of them with Ashkenazim.

Be aware of some exceptions.

I remember a fellow andalusian from Cádiz who scored a significant percentage. He traced his paternal lineage back in time to a napoleonic soldier (that most likely deserted) and his exotic Y haplogroup seemed to be very common among the ashkenazi community of Frankfurt. I read that Napoleon was the first one to enforce equals rights there and put an end to the ghettos. I did not find strange that young men of ashkenazi origin could have joined the ranks of his army.

rober_tce
10-19-2020, 10:03 AM
Be aware of some exceptions.

I remember a fellow andalusian from Cádiz who scored a significant percentage. He traced his paternal lineage back in time to a napoleonic soldier (that most likely deserted) and his exotic Y haplogroup seemed to be very common among the ashkenazi community of Frankfurt. I read that Napoleon was the first one to enforce equals rights there and put an end to the ghettos. I did not find strange that young men of ashkenazi origin could have joined the ranks of his army.

I talked in general conditions, because Ashkenazi community takes definitive form between South and Central Europe in Early Middle Age. Always can there be exceptions like the case that you coments.

Also in european migrations of central europeans to North Jaén in 18th century could entry something.

But in narratives about jewish migrations there aren't significative general evidences to talk about Ashkenazim communities in Iberia.

BalkanKiwi
10-19-2020, 10:28 AM
So I've been looking at triangulated matches on MyHeritage. Interestingly (or perhaps not), I've found a few Spanish matches that triangulate on a segment on chromosome 10. On the Eurogenes K13 chromosome painting, this is a mostly Baltic segment with smaller amounts of East and West Med. I've found two Spanish matches in particular that triangulate here that don't score any Ashkenazi or Sephardic, and don't score any North and West Europe.

What's interesting about these matches is one in particular has 84.4% Iberian and 15.6% Italian, however he and my grandfather triangulate on this segment with a large number of Ashkenazi, with some also having Iberian. It seems this area is a pile up region.

Does this particular match actually have Jewish ancestry and its not showing? I haven't seen a situation where an apparent non-Jewish person by results, matches a large amount of Jewish people along a certain segment.

rober_tce
10-19-2020, 03:56 PM
So I've been looking at triangulated matches on MyHeritage. Interestingly (or perhaps not), I've found a few Spanish matches that triangulate on a segment on chromosome 10. On the Eurogenes K13 chromosome painting, this is a mostly Baltic segment with smaller amounts of East and West Med. I've found two Spanish matches in particular that triangulate here that don't score any Ashkenazi or Sephardic, and don't score any North and West Europe.

What's interesting about these matches is one in particular has 84.4% Iberian and 15.6% Italian, however he and my grandfather triangulate on this segment with a large number of Ashkenazi, with some also having Iberian. It seems this area is a pile up region.

Does this particular match actually have Jewish ancestry and its not showing? I haven't seen a situation where an apparent non-Jewish person by results, matches a large amount of Jewish people along a certain segment.

In chr. 10 there is a pile up region, in concrete from 44 million to 53 million. Verify the position of the triangulated segment.

Tested people with jewish ancestry, as well as having jewish relatives, normally score Ashkenazi, levantine or similar. If don't, it may be that the common ancestor is iberian. The chromosomal painting don't show specially a typical jewish segment (it must be mainly levantine on painting).

BalkanKiwi
10-19-2020, 08:13 PM
In chr. 10 there is a pile up region, in concrete from 44 million to 53 million. Verify the position of the triangulated segment.

Tested people with jewish ancestry, as well as having jewish relatives, normally score Ashkenazi, levantine or similar. If don't, it may be that the common ancestor is iberian. The chromosomal painting don't show specially a typical jewish segment (it must be mainly levantine on painting).

Here's the segment. All of the matches with the Spanish person above are between 55 million and 71 million on chromosome 10.

https://i.imgur.com/fKyypBy.jpg

I've come across a match in Morocco, who matches on this segment, who gets 28.2% Sephardic and 45.5% Ashkenazi (and 13.5% Iberian).

It seems everyone who matches on this segment scores certain amounts of Ashkenazi/Sephardic. Some matches, like the one in my above post, are almost 100% Iberian, but we still match with Ashkenazi.

Likely no common Iberian ancestor?

CyrylBojarski
10-19-2020, 08:24 PM
Here's the segment. All of the matches with the Spanish person above are between 55 million and 71 million on chromosome 10.

https://i.imgur.com/fKyypBy.jpg

I've come across a match in Morocco, who matches on this segment, who gets 28.2% Sephardic and 45.5% Ashkenazi (and 13.5% Iberian).

It seems everyone who matches on this segment scores certain amounts of Ashkenazi, with a few matches also getting Sephardic. Some matches, like the one in my above post, are almost 100% Iberian, but we still match with Ashkenazi.

No common Iberian ancestor?

It is good to use chromosome painting on Gedmatch, but I think it is much better to use 23andme painting, Gedmatch has glitches with it

CyrylBojarski
10-19-2020, 08:27 PM
In chr. 10 there is a pile up region, in concrete from 44 million to 53 million. Verify the position of the triangulated segment.

Tested people with jewish ancestry, as well as having jewish relatives, normally score Ashkenazi, levantine or similar. If don't, it may be that the common ancestor is iberian. The chromosomal painting don't show specially a typical jewish segment (it must be mainly levantine on painting).

MyHeritage misses Sephardic in Latin American if it is very small, I have matches from Latin America which are just Iberian + Native on MH, but I do not have this both ancestries, so that should be from other ancestry

rober_tce
10-19-2020, 08:48 PM
MyHeritage misses Sephardic in Latin American if it is very small, I have matches from Latin America which are just Iberian + Native on MH, but I do not have this both ancestries, so that should be from other ancestry

Anyway, MH estimation is completely different to 23andMe. Normally, iberian people or South Americans score more Ashkenazi than Sephardi. It can be due to the origin of samples. If I don't in a mistake, Sephardi Jewish-North África cathegory is based in many Moroccan Jewish, and these have a higher quantity of North African, so this can be the reason.

CyrylBojarski
10-19-2020, 09:14 PM
Anyway, MH estimation is completely different to 23andMe. Normally, iberian people or South Americans score more Ashkenazi than Sephardi. It can be due to the origin of samples. If I don't in a mistake, Sephardi Jewish-North África cathegory is based in many Moroccan Jewish, and these have a higher quantity of North African, so this can be the reason.

You are right. I got 2% Middle Eastern with high Balkan. Do you think 6% Eastern Sephardic can be read as 4% Balkan and 2% Middle East on MH?

rober_tce
10-19-2020, 10:01 PM
You are right. I got 2% Middle Eastern with high Balkan. Do you think 6% Eastern Sephardic can be read as 4% Balkan and 2% Middle East on MH?

Yes, is very possible. Sometimes Sephardi ancestry is more dificult to assign in several algorithms.

Edition: in the case of Sephardim of Bulgaria, is possible the ethnic breakdown like you said.

BalkanKiwi
10-19-2020, 10:50 PM
Unfortunately I haven't tested my grandfather on 23andMe, therefore I have to rely on tools like GEDMatch.

A finding I've made since posting. With that 84.4% Iberian and 15.6% Italian match, I've found 3 other Spanish matches who are listed as his 3rd-5th cousins. None of them score any Jewish, only one gets North and Western Europe (17.8%), all of them have between 70-84.4% Iberian, and we all triangulate on chromosome 10 between 60 million and 70 million.

rober_tce
10-19-2020, 11:02 PM
Here's the segment. All of the matches with the Spanish person above are between 55 million and 71 million on chromosome 10.

https://i.imgur.com/fKyypBy.jpg

I've come across a match in Morocco, who matches on this segment, who gets 28.2% Sephardic and 45.5% Ashkenazi (and 13.5% Iberian).

It seems everyone who matches on this segment scores certain amounts of Ashkenazi/Sephardic. Some matches, like the one in my above post, are almost 100% Iberian, but we still match with Ashkenazi.

Likely no common Iberian ancestor?

Sorry I haven't seen your post! I think this segment is of a common iberian ancestor, if in this segment appears many jewish matches, the history would change. The chromosomal painting seems atypical of a jewish segment due to less quantity of East Med.

In addition, reading your last post, I suspect this segment is mainly iberian, due to many spanish matches triangulate in this segment. Do you have any idea which is the origin of these matches? Maybe your Ashkenazi ancestor had any Sephardi ancestry, and all of you have an iberian ancestor in common.

This segment isn't neither a pile up region, so it's good.

BalkanKiwi
10-19-2020, 11:25 PM
Sorry I haven't seen your post! I think this segment is of a common iberian ancestor, if in this segment appears many jewish matches, the history would change. The chromosomal painting seems atypical of a jewish segment due to less quantity of East Med.

In addition, reading your last post, I suspect this segment is mainly iberian, due to many spanish matches triangulate in this segment. Do you have any idea which is the origin of these matches? Maybe your Ashkenazi ancestor had any Sephardi ancestry, and all of you have an iberian ancestor in common.

No worries! Unfortunately they haven't listed any specific regions in Spain with their family surnames, and the family tree members that aren't private just say "España" as birth location. Some of the listed surnames include Navarro, García, Gimenes and Zamorano. I don't think this is a breach of privacy as these appear to be common surnames. Regarding Sephardi, I've done a quick GenoPlot model for my grandfather with Sephardi out of interest. I haven't tried this before, but I assume even Ashkenazi would still score some Sephardi on a model?

Scaled with penalty:

Grandfather

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.4239
Results:Scottish56.5
English40.5
Sephardic Jew3
Myself as a comparison

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BalkanKiwi
Fit:0.9691
Results:Irish51.5
Scottish31
Croatian11
Sephardic Jew5.5
Papuan1

rober_tce
10-19-2020, 11:51 PM
No worries! Unfortunately they haven't listed any specific regions in Spain with their family surnames, and the family tree members that aren't private just say "España" as birth location. Some of the listed surnames include Navarro, García, Gimenes and Zamorano. I don't think this is a breach of privacy as these appear to be common surnames. Regarding Sephardi, I've done a quick GenoPlot model for my grandfather with Sephardi out of interest. I haven't tried this before, but I assume even Ashkenazi would still score some Sephardi on a model?

Scaled with penalty:

Grandfather

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BKGrandfather
Fit:1.4239
Results:Scottish56.5
English40.5
Sephardic Jew3
Myself as a comparison

Sample:Balkan Kiwi ► BalkanKiwi
Fit:0.9691
Results:Irish51.5
Scottish31
Croatian11
Sephardic Jew5.5
Papuan1

Indeed these names are relatively common in Spain, García is the most one. I'm Navarro of second name, and my first name is more common yet. I'm considering jewish hypothesis for the iberian common ancestry, even you said that a north african jewish triangulate in this segment, so in my opinion can reforce this thought. In other case, the iberian ancestor could come of some migration isolated to East Europe or British Islands.

BalkanKiwi
10-20-2020, 12:16 AM
Indeed these names are relatively common in Spain, García is the most one. I'm Navarro of second name, and my first name is more common yet. I'm considering jewish hypothesis for the iberian common ancestry, even you said that a north african jewish triangulate in this segment, so in my opinion can reforce this thought. In other case, the iberian ancestor could come of some migration isolated to East Europe or British Islands.

I've gone and checked the triangulation of the Moroccan Jewish match with these matches, as I hadn't done that yet. The Moroccan match doesn't actually triangulate here. He matches my grandfather along this segment on chromosome 10 (59 million to 67 million) but he doesn't match the other Spanish matches in this spot. The Moroccan match gets 13.5% Iberian.

I've located another Iberian match (50.1% Iberian), with no Jewish or North and West Europe, who matches with the other Spanish matches along that segment. Perhaps this is indeed an Iberian segment. It seems if Jewish people do share here, its a shared Iberian component rather than East Med, as my grandfather matches Jews and non-Jews here, but the common ancestry they all have is Iberian.

I suppose now the question is, does the Basque my grandfather and mother score indicate the actual region/source of this? Or its still too hard to tell.

rober_tce
10-20-2020, 12:21 AM
I've gone and checked the triangulation of the Moroccan Jewish match with these matches, as I hadn't done that yet. The Moroccan match doesn't actually triangulate here. He matches my grandfather along this segment on chromosome 10 (59 million to 67 million) but he doesn't match the other Spanish matches in this spot. The Moroccan match gets 13.5% Iberian.

I've located another Iberian match (50.1% Iberian), with no Jewish or North and West Europe, who matches with the other Spanish matches along that segment. Perhaps this is indeed an Iberian segment. It seems if Jewish people do share here, its a shared Iberian component rather than East Med, as my grandfather matches Jews and non-Jews here, but the common ancestry they all have is Iberian.

I suppose now the question is, does the Basque my grandfather and mother score indicate the actual region/source of this? Or its still too hard to tell.

I think, after verifying the iberian segment and succesfully triangulation of your iberian matches, the basque cathegory is related with it in any form. Really Basque component is present in many spanish. For example in my case, I have two ancestral names with origin in Basque traditional lands. So I see it very possible in your case.

jstephan
10-20-2020, 12:34 AM
Keep in mind Spanish_Pais_Vasco refers to non-Basque Spanish individuals in modern Basque Country, and tend to be a little bit more similar to NW Europeans than Spanish Basques are. Asturian isn't anywhere like Spanish_Basque (within the Iberian spectrum in G25), but they do likewise have residual central/east Med admixture. These Iberian - especially north Iberian - references might just be showing up as a proxy for a West European variation that has lower Steppe ancestry than NW Europeans have, which could be why small amounts of it improve the fit.

I always get a mix of Basque (plus some British) on most calculators and ancestry results, and if not Basque I get Iberian, same for both my parents, but this seems to be the rule in Western France and frequent in Western Britain too (e.g Timberwolf) and I agree with your statement in bold and came to the same conclusion as you, more or less an extra ancient western neolithic/beaker ancestry with lower steppe to fit it all.

BalkanKiwi
10-20-2020, 12:36 AM
I think, after verifying the iberian segment and succesfully triangulation of your iberian matches, the basque cathegory is related with it in any form. Really Basque component is present in many spanish. For example in my case, I have two ancestral names with origin in Basque traditional lands. So I see it very possible in your case.

I agree with this. I assume if someone has an Iberian ancestor and also scores Basque, its a specific enough genetic region to indicate at least one Basque ancestor, i.e. someone with Iberian ancestry wouldn't score Basque for no reason. Obviously triangulating matches assists with this.

My wife for example (known ancestry is English, Irish and German), gets 15.5% Iberian on MyHeritage, but doesn't get any Basque or Iberian (or any Southern European) on myOrigins. She only has 9 matches in Spain, and only 2-3 of those actually have Iberian ancestry.

BalkanKiwi
10-20-2020, 12:56 AM
I always get a mix of Basque (plus some British) on most calculators and ancestry results, and if not Basque I get Iberian, same for both my parents, but this seems to be the rule in Western France and frequent in Western Britain too (e.g Timberwolf) and I agree with your statement in bold and came to the same conclusion as you, more or less an extra ancient western neolithic/beaker ancestry with lower steppe to fit it all.

Out of curiosity, and I know of Timberwolf's regular Basque/Iberian as well, have you managed to find any triangulated Iberian matches?

jstephan
10-20-2020, 12:58 AM
Out of curiosity, and I know of Timberwolf's regular Basque/Iberian as well, have you managed to find any triangulated Iberian matches?

No I didn't sorry but will when I get a chance.

BalkanKiwi
10-20-2020, 01:18 AM
No I didn't sorry but will when I get a chance.

No worries. I was just interested to know if those with only known Western Euro ancestry who score Iberian/Basque have had any success in identifying shared Iberian matches. The success of this would no doubt be hampered if someone only had a few Spanish matches to start with.

jstephan
10-20-2020, 01:35 AM
No worries. I was just interested to know if those with only known Western Euro ancestry who score Iberian/Basque have had any success in identifying shared Iberian matches. The success of this would no doubt be hampered if someone only had a few Spanish matches to start with.

Most of my matches are people from my area or at least French and my false positive generally have Anglo surnames, but will have a deeper look later this week.

passenger
10-20-2020, 02:37 AM
I haven't looked very carefully at the specifics of the segment matches you mentioned, but my first impression is that the Basque and Ashkenazi issues are unrelated. Ashkenazim can sometimes score Basque in some models, but it's generally negligible. For that matter, Sephardim hardly even score any type of Iberian in G25 models, though there are certainly some Sephardim, probably carrying Western Sephardic (partial converso) admixture, who tend to get higher Iberian scores in commercial tests.

Having said that, it's funny that my dad, who has similar issues to you in terms of scoring odd Middle Eastern percentages, also generally gets a considerable (though minor) Spanish_Pais_Vasco and/or other Iberian percentage in a lot of G25 models. I feel like this is probably a coincidence though, and that the reason why he gets the latter is the same as it is for other NW Europeans. He's never gotten Basque or Iberian in any commercial tests (though trace Middle East/Caucasus has shown up in several).

BalkanKiwi
10-20-2020, 03:09 AM
I haven't looked very carefully at the specifics of the segment matches you mentioned, but my first impression is that the Basque and Ashkenazi issues are unrelated. Ashkenazim can sometimes score Basque in some models, but it's generally negligible. For that matter, Sephardim hardly even score any type of Iberian in G25 models, though there are certainly some Sephardim, probably carrying Western Sephardic (partial converso) admixture, who tend to get higher Iberian scores in commercial tests.

Having said that, it's funny that my dad, who has similar issues to you in terms of scoring odd Middle Eastern percentages, also generally gets a considerable (though minor) Spanish_Pais_Vasco and/or other Iberian percentage in a lot of G25 models. I feel like this is probably a coincidence though, and that the reason why he gets the latter is the same as it is for other NW Europeans. He's never gotten Basque or Iberian in any commercial tests (though trace Middle East/Caucasus has shown up in several).

That's interesting. What you suggest regarding Basque and Ashkenazi being unrelated makes sense in relation to those 5 triangulated Iberian matches who don't have any Ashkenazi or Sephardic (if that aligns with your thinking, please correct me if I'm wrong). In my case, due to having a variety of ancestry components from different regions, there's obviously a lot of smaller amounts that make up these that lead to genetic rabbit holes, with minor amounts of Spanish now in the mix it seems. I'm going assume that any Iberian/Basque mixing in this case was at the very least, 500+ years ago.

Regarding your dad, and a similar question to what I asked jstephan, have you had a look at triangulating any Spanish matches that he gets?

rober_tce
10-20-2020, 06:36 AM
I agree with this. I assume if someone has an Iberian ancestor and also scores Basque, its a specific enough genetic region to indicate at least one Basque ancestor, i.e. someone with Iberian ancestry wouldn't score Basque for no reason. Obviously triangulating matches assists with this.

My wife for example (known ancestry is English, Irish and German), gets 15.5% Iberian on MyHeritage, but doesn't get any Basque or Iberian (or any Southern European) on myOrigins. She only has 9 matches in Spain, and only 2-3 of those actually have Iberian ancestry.

In your case it seems you have an iberian ancestor, indentified in this segment, so Basque percentage in MyOrigins is legitime.

It's possible that comes of a isolated migration of an iberian in last 500 years or more, I think remember that isn't documented any migrations general of iberians to East Europe or British Islands.

CyrylBojarski
10-20-2020, 08:45 AM
Sorry I haven't seen your post! I think this segment is of a common iberian ancestor, if in this segment appears many jewish matches, the history would change. The chromosomal painting seems atypical of a jewish segment due to less quantity of East Med.

In addition, reading your last post, I suspect this segment is mainly iberian, due to many spanish matches triangulate in this segment. Do you have any idea which is the origin of these matches? Maybe your Ashkenazi ancestor had any Sephardi ancestry, and all of you have an iberian ancestor in common.

This segment isn't neither a pile up region, so it's good.

I think it is impossible to draw conclusions because of Gedmatch Chromosome painter. I remember i found segment, that was fully East Med and I match it with people whom exactly this segment was painted Baltic, West Med.

Ruderico
10-20-2020, 08:49 AM
A few weeks ago FTDNA was asked by so many people were getting Jewish in their ancestry breakdown, and why the newest update reduced or eliminated it. Their reply was as follows


Thanks for contacting FamilyTreeDNA. I conferred with our population geneticist to make sure your results were correct and to inquire about the reason for the big difference you see here.
All Jewish populations share a single origin, but they have been admixing locally ever since the diaspora. Because of this, they will sometimes share more autosomal DNA with local populations than with each other, so you'll find our 4 Jewish reference populations for myOrigins 3.0 broken down into different overarching populations-— Arabia, Middle East, European Jewish, and Middle Eastern Jewish.
Defining the Sephardic Jewish population cluster genetically has proven difficult not just for FamilyTreeDNA, but for the other major DNA testing companies as well, for this reason. While our Sephardic Jewish population cluster polygon (the highlighted section of the map) appears over the Iberian Peninsula, the Sephardic Jewish population historically was found all across the Ottoman Empire. Under Ottoman-ruled areas, Sephardic Jewish populations were less persecuted than they were in regions such as Iberia.
The Sephardic Jewish population in Iberia tends to have a higher rate of genetic admixture with the local population, whereas the Sephardic Jewish population in other regions of the world is less admixed locally. In myOrigins 2.0, the reference population used was one that had its origins in Iberia and therefore had a high rate of admixture and delivered more false-positive results. We adjusted this reference population for myOrigins 3.0 in an attempt to be more accurate in the results we deliver. Because of this, you may have seen a decrease in Sephardic percentages and an increase in Iberian or nearby populations.
Best Regards

So a possibility for what you are seeing is, if it is indeed "Jewish", that they share native Iberian ancestry from an individual/family who were Iberian Jews with local ancestry. Otherwise it might just be Iberian ancestry that happened to survive in people who have Jewish ancestry from a different source.

rober_tce
10-20-2020, 08:52 AM
I think it is impossible to draw conclusions because of Gedmatch Chromosome painter. I remember i found segment, that was fully East Med and I match it with people whom exactly this segment was painted Baltic, West Med.

Normally it works well.

In chromosome painting, you must see overall the third graphic that says "in common with both kits". By this way, there isn't problems. Also is very useful chr. painting of 23andMe. For me always give good results.

In your case surely in your ch. it paints East Med, but in the other kit paint Baltic+West Med, but there is a third graphic down that shows pinture in common, this one is the key.

CyrylBojarski
10-20-2020, 08:58 AM
Normally it works well.

In chromosome painting, you must see overall the third graphic that says "in common with both kits". By this way, there isn't problems. Also is very useful chr. painting of 23andMe. For me always give good results.

In your case surely in your ch. it paints East Med, but in the other kit paint Baltic+West Med, but there is a third graphic down that shows pinture in common, this one is the key.

It is only accurate for me when I use Eurogenes K36, then segment, that I match with Iberians is painted North African, Near Eastern, Italian and Iberian. When I use Eurogenes K13 this segment is almost fully North Atlantic with some West Med

rober_tce
10-20-2020, 09:09 AM
It is only accurate for me when I use Eurogenes K36, then segment, that I match with Iberians is painted North African, Near Eastern, Italian and Iberian. When I use Eurogenes K13 this segment is almost fully North Atlantic with some West Med

For me works well in K13 and EUTest. I suppose depends of the genetic composition of the kit. In K13 is veru usual than an iberian be painted in most quantity as North Atlantic+West Med, these are our mainly components in this calculator. For example, in K13 I have 47% North Atlantic and 29% West Med (even for my native region of Spain, North Atlantic is quite high respect to the average).

I have used chr. painting with jewish, iberian and british matches (recently I discovered my british relatives are in typical iberian segments), and I don't have any problens with it.

CyrylBojarski
10-20-2020, 09:20 AM
For me works well in K13 and EUTest. I suppose depends of the genetic composition of the kit. In K13 is veru usual than an iberian be painted in most quantity as North Atlantic+West Med, these are our mainly components in this calculator. For example, in K13 I have 47% North Atlantic and 29% West Med (even for my native region of Spain, North Atlantic is quite high respect to the average).

I have used chr. painting with jewish, iberian and british matches (recently I discovered my british relatives are in typical iberian segments), and I don't have any problens with it.

How do you have British matches in Iberian segments? I have weird situation, without NW ancestry I have people in my matches whom oracle are 98% West_Scottish + 2% Ossetian or 97% Southeast_English + 3% Balkar, they match me not on pile up regions and I do not know what I share with them

BalkanKiwi
10-20-2020, 09:25 AM
A few weeks ago FTDNA was asked by so many people were getting Jewish in their ancestry breakdown, and why the newest update reduced or eliminated it. Their reply was as follows



So a possibility for what you are seeing is, if it is indeed "Jewish", that they share native Iberian ancestry from an individual/family who were Iberian Jews with local ancestry. Otherwise it might just be Iberian ancestry that happened to survive in people who have Jewish ancestry from a different source.

That's actually a somewhat reasonable reply by FTDNA. I wasn't aware V3 was causing issues in that regard. In other words regarding the "Jewish" path, if I've interpreted this correctly, because of the higher rate of admixture, it would be more common for Iberian's with and without Sephardic ancestry to match along the same segment, due to likely having a common Iberian ancestor?

rober_tce
10-20-2020, 09:43 AM
How do you have British matches in Iberian segments? I have weird situation, without NW ancestry I have people in my matches whom oracle are 98% West_Scottish + 2% Ossetian or 97% Southeast_English + 3% Balkar, they match me not on pile up regions and I do not know what I share with them

Because probably we share an iberian common ancestor, althought normally aren't triangulated, and some of them in pile up regions, so I suspect that my british matches are related with ancient DNA, it could come for example of ancient cultures of Metals Age like Bell Beakers (it seems that some iberian Bell Beakers arrived to Great Britain).

mokordo
10-20-2020, 10:48 AM
That's actually a somewhat reasonable reply by FTDNA. I wasn't aware V3 was causing issues in that regard. In other words regarding the "Jewish" path, if I've interpreted this correctly, because of the higher rate of admixture, it would be more common for Iberian's with and without Sephardic ancestry to match along the same segment, due to likely having a common Iberian ancestor?

You can try this model:

British_Islands,=(English_Cornwall+English)+(Irish +Scottish+Welsh)
Ashkenazi:A,=Ashkenazi_Belarussia,+Ashkenazi_Germa ny,+Ashkenazi_Lithuania+Ashkenazi_Poland,+Ashkenaz i_Russia,+Ashkenazi_Ukraine,
Basque:Average_A=French_basque+Spanish_basque



British_Islands,0.13165413,0.13707704,0.06136654,0 .04485214,0.03995564,0.01709027,0.00374873,0.00575 732,0.00510017,0.00480905,-0.00518153,0.00578464,-0.01307829,-0.01129563,0.02183706,0.00395673,-0.01089574,0.00277469,0.00292593,0.00235050,0.0050 8376,0.00321609,-0.00117769,0.01363141,0.00036479
Ashkenazi:A,0.099970,0.135429,-0.008377,-0.041881,0.010566,-0.015231,-0.001245,-0.000821,0.007360,0.014738,0.001841,-0.000588,0.002471,-0.000415,-0.004074,0.000929,-0.000614,-0.000406,-0.000085,-0.002904,-0.003305,-0.002439,0.001605,0.002374,0.000129
Basque:Average_A,0.12997965,0.15121785,0.05672945, 0.01091560,0.05699690,0.00131690,-0.00236310,0.00186655,0.03097855,0.04340165,-0.00690060,0.01097355,-0.02187710,-0.01639320,0.01558220,0.00089560,-0.00886335,0.00290045,-0.00126605,-0.002245710,0.00947355,0.00248615,-0.00776400,-0.00910345,0.001167849



Ashkenazi samples have many Slav and some German inside, so if you can try the model with a more "pure" Jewish (Levantine) reference based in ancient samples you can use this one:

Jewish/Levantine=Levant_Yehud_IBA,+Levant_Ashkelon_IA1,



British_Islands,0.13165413,0.13707704,0.06136654,0 .04485214,0.03995564,0.01709027,0.00374873,0.00575 732,0.00510017,0.00480905,-0.00518153,0.00578464,-0.01307829,-0.01129563,0.02183706,0.00395673,-0.01089574,0.00277469,0.00292593,0.00235050,0.0050 8376,0.00321609,-0.00117769,0.01363141,0.00036479
Basque:Average_A,0.12997965,0.15121785,0.05672945, 0.01091560,0.05699690,0.00131690,-0.00236310,0.00186655,0.03097855,0.04340165,-0.00690060,0.01097355,-0.02187710,-0.01639320,0.01558220,0.00089560,-0.00886335,0.00290045,-0.00126605,-0.002245710,0.00947355,0.00248615,-0.00776400,-0.00910345,0.001167849
Jewish/Levantine,0.09177000,0.15766125,-0.04530140,-0.08765410,-0.00073085,-0.03503590,-0.00076360,-0.00294225,0.01572275,0.02599150,0.01130650,-0.00237940,0.00312190,0.01826925,-0.01221500,-0.00442535,-0.01201175,0.00323060,0.00565640,0.00220440,-0.00474175,0.01218001,-0.00164840,-0.00162675,-0.00082350

mokordo
10-20-2020, 10:54 AM
And changing the Basque reference by a generic "North iberian" reference:

Iberian_North=Spanish_Navarra,+Spanish_Pais_Vasco, +Spanish_Cantabria,


Iberian_North,0.12242300,0.14849267,0.04831367,0.0 0441433,0.04920567,-0.00158033,-0.00117500,0.00112833,0.02542900,0.03776333,-0.00550333,0.00982467,-0.01831833,-0.01532200,0.01438633,0.00066300,-0.00819967,0.00174567,-0.00188533,-0.00464133,0.00506033,0.00028867,-0.00647733,-0.00282500,0.00303367
British_Islands,0.13165413,0.13707704,0.06136654,0 .04485214,0.03995564,0.01709027,0.00374873,0.00575 732,0.00510017,0.00480905,-0.00518153,0.00578464,-0.01307829,-0.01129563,0.02183706,0.00395673,-0.01089574,0.00277469,0.00292593,0.00235050,0.0050 8376,0.00321609,-0.00117769,0.01363141,0.00036479
Jewish/Levantine,0.09177000,0.15766125,-0.04530140,-0.08765410,-0.00073085,-0.03503590,-0.00076360,-0.00294225,0.01572275,0.02599150,0.01130650,-0.00237940,0.00312190,0.01826925,-0.01221500,-0.00442535,-0.01201175,0.00323060,0.00565640,0.00220440,-0.00474175,0.01218001,-0.00164840,-0.00162675,-0.00082350

Ruderico
10-20-2020, 10:56 AM
I don't think G25 models will help, you need something finer to find such small bits of ancestry which is why looking at matches is the way to go

mokordo
10-20-2020, 11:01 AM
Better use them with 0.25X

BalkanKiwi
10-20-2020, 11:04 AM
And changing the Basque reference by a generic "North iberian" reference:

Iberian_North=Spanish_Navarra,+Spanish_Pais_Vasco, +Spanish_Cantabria,


Iberian_North,0.12242300,0.14849267,0.04831367,0.0 0441433,0.04920567,-0.00158033,-0.00117500,0.00112833,0.02542900,0.03776333,-0.00550333,0.00982467,-0.01831833,-0.01532200,0.01438633,0.00066300,-0.00819967,0.00174567,-0.00188533,-0.00464133,0.00506033,0.00028867,-0.00647733,-0.00282500,0.00303367
British_Islands,0.13165413,0.13707704,0.06136654,0 .04485214,0.03995564,0.01709027,0.00374873,0.00575 732,0.00510017,0.00480905,-0.00518153,0.00578464,-0.01307829,-0.01129563,0.02183706,0.00395673,-0.01089574,0.00277469,0.00292593,0.00235050,0.0050 8376,0.00321609,-0.00117769,0.01363141,0.00036479
Jewish/Levantine,0.09177000,0.15766125,-0.04530140,-0.08765410,-0.00073085,-0.03503590,-0.00076360,-0.00294225,0.01572275,0.02599150,0.01130650,-0.00237940,0.00312190,0.01826925,-0.01221500,-0.00442535,-0.01201175,0.00323060,0.00565640,0.00220440,-0.00474175,0.01218001,-0.00164840,-0.00162675,-0.00082350


Thanks for these! I've ran all three out of interest for my grandfather. I wasn't expecting Jewish to disappear in the third model.

Distance: 2.4206% / 0.02420561 | ADC: 0.25x RC
92.8 British_Islands
5.6 Basque_Average_A
1.6 Ashkenazi:A

Distance: 2.4273% / 0.02427345 | ADC: 0.25x RC
93.0 British_Islands
7.0 Basque:Average_A

Distance: 2.4238% / 0.02423841 | ADC: 0.25x RC
92.4 British_Islands
7.6 Iberian:North_Iberia


EDIT: I ran these before seeing your 0.25x post.

EDIT2: I've rerun them again with 0.25x.

mokordo
10-20-2020, 11:04 AM
I don't think G25 models will help, you need something finer to find such small bits of ancestry which is why looking at matches is the way to go

All together shows well a trend.

CyrylBojarski
10-20-2020, 11:08 AM
I don't think G25 models will help, you need something finer to find such small bits of ancestry which is why looking at matches is the way to go

If try G25 it with different populations it can help very much.

Person can have no matches in chromosome where got something and the only way is G25/Gedmatch Vahaduo in my opinion

mokordo
10-20-2020, 11:10 AM
Thanks for these! I've ran all three out of interest for my grandfather. I wasn't expecting Jewish to disappear in the third model.

Distance: 2.4206% / 0.02420561
92.8 British_Islands
5.6 Basque_Average_A
1.6 Ashkenazi

Distance: 2.4112% / 0.02411206
93.6 British_Islands
4.8 Basque
1.6 Jewish/Levantine

Distance: 2.4238% / 0.02423841
92.4 British_Islands
7.6 Iberian

EDIT: I ran these before seeing your 0.25x post.

If it helps you, my mother from Álava province (South Basque Country), with no known ancestry from British isles, at least in the last 500 years, usually scores Irish/Scottish or English in commercial tests. Between 3-7% depending the company.

Ruderico
10-20-2020, 11:12 AM
All together shows well a trend.

He already said Iberian references showed in the model outputs, it's just repeating the same thing.



If try G25 it with different populations it can help very much.

Person can have no matches in chromosome where got something and the only way is G25/Gedmatch Vahaduo in my opinion

G25 can show noisy and/or overfitted results because a particular reference that has no bearing on one's ancestry actually improves the fit because it's capturing variation not included in the local reference. You have no way to tell if that is real or not, unlike with segment triangulation. Different tools for different jobs.

CyrylBojarski
10-20-2020, 11:17 AM
He already said Iberian references showed in the model outputs, it's just repeating the same thing.




G25 can show noisy and/or overfitted results because a particular reference that has no bearing on one's ancestry actually improves the fit because it's capturing variation not included in the local reference. You have no way to tell if that is real or not, unlike with segment triangulation. Different tools for different jobs.

It will not give you overfitted results if you choose realistic for your ancestry source populations for yourself. Do you have seen noise more than 1-2%? I have never seen such results

Ruderico
10-20-2020, 11:21 AM
It will not give you overfitted results if you choose realistic for your ancestry source populations for yourself. Do you have seen noise more than 1-2%? I have never seen such results

I have quite often. This Iberian we're discussing in NW Europeans, or the reverse, is an example of that. Rule of thumb is to not read things literally, particularly when using averages.

mokordo
10-20-2020, 11:22 AM
He already said Iberian references showed in the model outputs, it's just repeating the same thing.




G25 can show noisy and/or overfitted results because a particular reference that has no bearing on one's ancestry actually improves the fit because it's capturing variation not included in the local reference. You have no way to tell if that is real or not, unlike with segment triangulation. Different tools for different jobs.

Matches that offer to you commercial companies have also many doubts, that is why I said that seeing all together helps to have an overall view.

An overview of trends is the closest we can get to reality with ancient inputs of unexpected contributions in our results.

In my humble opinion, of course.

jstephan
10-20-2020, 11:23 AM
If it helps you, my mother from Álava province (South Basque Country), with no known ancestry from British isles, at least in the last 500 years, usually scores Irish/Scottish or English in commercial tests. Between 3-7% depending the company.

And surely for the same reason as a western Brit will score some Basque/Iberian, in her case to compensate with an extra bit of western admixture higher in Steppe ?

CyrylBojarski
10-20-2020, 11:24 AM
I have quite often. This Iberian we're discussing in NW Europeans, or the reverse, is an example of that.

I agree, G25 without professional commercial tests will not give perfect results, but for example if you had your 23andme ethnicity estimate and you know approcimately who you are you can create model, where will be ethnic groups that most likely or possibly are in your ancestry

mokordo
10-20-2020, 11:26 AM
I have quite often. This Iberian we're discussing in NW Europeans, or the reverse, is an example of that. Rule of thumb is to not read things literally, particularly when using averages.

I however believe that using individuals as a reference in G25 models is even more inaccurate and it is so that it really leads to misunderstandings in the results of these models.

Averages, and even averages even made with larger and heterogeneous (but close) groups, give us a more accurate global vision, despite the fact that the results offer greater distances.

mokordo
10-20-2020, 11:31 AM
And surely for the same reason as a western Brit will score some Basque/Iberian, in her case to compensate with an extra western admixture higher in Steppe ?

In a single result or if this trend is repeated in gedmatch, g25 models and various ethnic estimates from different companies?

You would have to see each particular case, and try to interpret it with all the data on the table.

With all the data in front of you, you should sit down to discuss the different options and find which could be the most logical. With ALL, not only with one result.

jstephan
10-20-2020, 11:43 AM
In a single result or if this trend is repeated in gedmatch, g25 models and various ethnic estimates from different companies?

You would have to see each particular case, and try to interpret it with all the data on the table.

With all the data in front of you, you should sit down to discuss the different options and find which could be the most logical. With ALL, not only with one result.

I should has say maybe rather than surely :), but anyway it was just a supposition !

rober_tce
10-20-2020, 11:45 AM
The mainly method to find minnoritary ancestry (little segments) is through genetic genealogy, G25 gives you an aproximation, but if you don't take correct samples, the calculators may give mistakes. Is a good method, but it isn't definitive and conclusive.

In genetic genealogy when you triangulate real matches in regions without pile up, you knows 100% that all of you share a common ancestor, and chr. painting complement this method. When there are problems with matches, is because have too shorts segments shared, or there are false measure of SNPs as occure with New kits of GEDmatch which have two letters and nine numbers (the kits that don't give problems have only a letter).

Edition: I don't devaluating G25, I think is a good tool.

CyrylBojarski
10-20-2020, 12:01 PM
The mainly method to find minnoritary ancestry (little segments) is through genetic genealogy, G25 gives you an aproximation, but if you don't take correct samples, the calculators may give mistakes. Is a good method, but it isn't definitive and conclusive.

In genetic genealogy when you triangulate real matches in regions without pile up, you knows 100% that all of you share a common ancestor, and chr. painting complement this method. When there are problems with matches, is because have too shorts segments shared, or there are false measure of SNPs as occure with New kits of GEDmatch which have two letters and nine numbers (the kits that don't give problems have only a letter).

Edition: I don't devaluating G25, I think is a good tool.

Do you know what percentage of real matches for triangulated 8-9 cM segments is? For example I am trying to figure out from what side do I have 2,5% Italian on 23andme and people who match me on this place are very often 50% NW European/ 50% Spanish split, should be from Sephardic then, but there is no triangulated match in this segment more than 10 cM and I read the smaller the match, the more likely match is false.

mokordo
10-20-2020, 12:03 PM
I should has say maybe rather than surely :), but anyway it was just a supposition !

I do not have any specific training on this subject, I try to express my opinion with the rigor that my training in other fields may have given me, so do not take much into account what I say, which is nothing more than what common sense commands to do when we want find a solution to something when the data is not entirely reliable and the tools we have are not very precise.

From what I have seen, in this forum there are people who know much more than I do about all these issues, I am just an amateur trying to put myself in the shoes of Sherlock Holmes.

mokordo
10-20-2020, 12:08 PM
The mainly method to find minnoritary ancestry (little segments) is through genetic genealogy, G25 gives you an aproximation, but if you don't take correct samples, the calculators may give mistakes. Is a good method, but it isn't definitive and conclusive.

In genetic genealogy when you triangulate real matches in regions without pile up, you knows 100% that all of you share a common ancestor, and chr. painting complement this method. When there are problems with matches, is because have too shorts segments shared, or there are false measure of SNPs as occure with New kits of GEDmatch which have two letters and nine numbers (the kits that don't give problems have only a letter).

Edition: I don't devaluating G25, I think is a good tool.

what you call "real matches" has different interpretations.

Beyond a certain close degree of kinship, we enter the diffuse environment of the world of probability.

jstephan
10-20-2020, 12:11 PM
I do not have any specific training on this subject, I try to express my opinion with the rigor that my training in other fields may have given me, so do not take much into account what I say, which is nothing more than what common sense commands to do when we want find a solution to something when the data is not entirely reliable and the tools we have are not very precise.

From what I have seen, in this forum there are people who know much more than I do about all these issues, I am just an amateur trying to put myself in the shoes of Sherlock Holmes.

Same for me, and certainly more amateur than you, but it's nice to have this kind of places such as this forum to express our opinions and discuss.

rober_tce
10-20-2020, 12:30 PM
Repeated.

rober_tce
10-20-2020, 12:30 PM
what you call "real matches" has different interpretations.

Beyond a certain close degree of kinship, we enter the diffuse environment of the world of probability.

A match is real or is false, there aren't doubts about ir if you applie correctly the tools of genetic genealogy. There aren't different interpretations. Obviously, you must using the correct tools for verifying it of appropiate form: succesfully triangulation, region without pile up, the shared segments must have minimum 8-10 cM and 2000 SNPs (if have 15 to 20 cM, is reliable, more of this is much better).

Edition: I know you want to say. Maybe each method have their failures, I have found sometimes some matches that seems real, and after verifying this, they were falses, but I had to revise it many times. Nothing and nobody is perfect, because the human being neither is (mode philosophic lol). In G25 occure also similar situations.

rober_tce
10-20-2020, 12:44 PM
Do you know what percentage of real matches for triangulated 8-9 cM segments is? For example I am trying to figure out from what side do I have 2,5% Italian on 23andme and people who match me on this place are very often 50% NW European/ 50% Spanish split, should be from Sephardic then, but there is no triangulated match in this segment more than 10 cM and I read the smaller the match, the more likely match is false.

8-10 cM is the minimum. These can be real but more far in time, also can be false. Between 15 to 30 is quite reliable, and 30 and more is very good match and is real almost 100%. But when we triangulate all matches in same segments with succes, there is more posibilities that can be real. The key is the triangulation.

Ruderico
10-20-2020, 01:01 PM
I however believe that using individuals as a reference in G25 models is even more inaccurate and it is so that it really leads to misunderstandings in the results of these models.

Averages, and even averages even made with larger and heterogeneous (but close) groups, give us a more accurate global vision, despite the fact that the results offer greater distances.

If you have a solid database of national samples, using individuals is much better at understanding if you might have foreign ancestry or not because you are including a wider range of national genetic variation which one might end up on. If I use averages I end up looking like half-Portuguese half-Spanish_Pais_Vasco merely because I'm around the northernmost spectrum of Portuguese variation. If instead I use individuals this brutal difference gets reduced by a lot.
[1] "distance%=1.6707"

Ruderico

Portuguese,52.6
Spanish_Pais_Vasco,47.4



[1] "distance%=1.0596"

Ruderico

Portuguese,84
Spanish_Pais_Vasco,16

Averages are fine to pick up trends, but they might be misinterpreted into thinking there's foreign ancestry where there is not.

mokordo
10-20-2020, 01:03 PM
A match is real or is false, there aren't doubts about ir if you applie correctly the tools of genetic genealogy. There aren't different interpretations. Obviously, you must using the correct tools for verifying it of appropiate form: succesfully triangulation, region without pile up, the shared segments must have minimum 8-10 cM and 2000 SNPs (if have 15 to 20 cM, is very reliable).

You basically told me the same that I told you.


Beyond a certain close degree of kinship, we enter the diffuse environment of the world of probability.

Do you know that a cM is a unit of measurement based in...probability?


A centimorgan is a unit used to measure genetic linkage. One centimorgan equals a one percent chance that a marker on a chromosome will become separated from a second marker on the same chromosome due to crossing over in a single generation.

In Spanish:


El centimorgan es la unidad que se usa para medir el grado de proximidad genética. Un centimorgan equivale a un 1% de probabilidad de que un marcador en un cromosoma sea separado de un segundo marcador sobre el mismo cromosoma debido al fenómeno de entrecruzamiento (crossing-over en inglés), en una sola generación.

As you can see, the science even in magnitudes used to assign matches are not very "reliable".

The maths that sustains software that we can use to try our G25 coordinates (Nmonte, Vahaduo, ancestry calculator etc) is basically statistic+games theory(a subranch of probability) too.

So better (again) don´t trust in just one source, and see them all together, interprete, discuss, investigate, have criteria, and never think that a single source can capitalize the truth.(I don´t know if that verb has the same meaning in english tahn in Spanish).

mokordo
10-20-2020, 01:14 PM
If you have a solid database of national samples, using individuals is much better at understanding if you might have foreign ancestry or not because you are including a wider range of national genetic variation which one might end up on. If I use averages I end up looking like half-Portuguese half-Spanish_Pais_Vasco merely because I'm around the northernmost spectrum of Portuguese variation. If instead I use individuals this brutal difference gets reduced by a lot.
[1] "distance%=1.6707"

Ruderico

Portuguese,52.6
Spanish_Pais_Vasco,47.4



[1] "distance%=1.0596"

Ruderico

Portuguese,84
Spanish_Pais_Vasco,16

You don´t say anything that I didn´t already know.

G25 modern averages datasheet is very imrpovable, it´s absurd have 1 Portuguese reference and 33 Spanish references.(near the half of them from catalonia), or the most Spanish representative region (castilla y León) made only with 2 or 3 individuals, and País Vasco? With how many individuals is it made?

Or 2 references for Germany and 2 for English or 5 for british islands.

I don´t think that Portuguese reference is specially representative for Portuguese people, do you think so?

That´s why I prefer use my own references made with averages,Through trial and error, I am finding some pretty good references, although the results obtain somewhat greater distances in general than with the official ones . At least for Iberians.

rober_tce
10-20-2020, 01:33 PM
You basically told me the same that I told you.



Do you know that a cM is a unit of measurement based in...probability?



In Spanish:



As you can see, the science even in magnitudes used to assign matches are not very "reliable".

The maths that sustains software that we can use to try our G25 coordinates (Nmonte, Vahaduo, ancestry calculator etc) is basically statistic+games theory(a subranch of probability) too.

So better (again) don´t trust in just one source, and see them all together, interprete, discuss, investigate, have criteria, and never think that a single source can capitalize the truth.(I don´t know if that verb has the same meaning in english tahn in Spanish).

I don't say that science don't use probabilities in each methods that it use, all in science is probability and variables. We don't have the same point of view about this matter. I am not devaluating G25 as tool, I said it before, is a good method in fact, but is easier have a mistake with G25 fue to complexity of samples and flexibility when you make a model, than genetic genealogy, where there are a serial of points that you must follow, and it makes this method very reliable. So, I consider genetic genealogy as best tool to know far ancestry.

Both methods can be complementary, I never denied the utility of Global 25.

Ruderico
10-20-2020, 02:13 PM
I don´t think that Portuguese reference is specially representative for Portuguese people, do you think so?

Improbable why? How do you measure if it's "good" or not? Why shouldn't this reference be fine when it's made by all available samples in G25, half of those are academic samples from HGDP, the other half are were used in academic studies and were donated by FMUP. There's nothing wrong with it.

The point of the example was just to show that naturally averages can be misinterpreted because the outputs can apparently seem quite obtuse, when in reality they are perfectly fine. Huijbregts made a similar example in his nMonte tutorial

passenger
10-20-2020, 03:33 PM
A few weeks ago FTDNA was asked by so many people were getting Jewish in their ancestry breakdown, and why the newest update reduced or eliminated it. Their reply was as follows



So a possibility for what you are seeing is, if it is indeed "Jewish", that they share native Iberian ancestry from an individual/family who were Iberian Jews with local ancestry. Otherwise it might just be Iberian ancestry that happened to survive in people who have Jewish ancestry from a different source.

Thanks for sharing that info about FTDNA. Their explanation is a very strange one, though, and only makes me more curious. This is a bit of an aside from the topic of this thread, but we've discussed FTDNA's Sephardic category on other threads, and it was generally thought that their 2.0 category was based on Eastern Sephardim, given the general accuracy of the category for Turkish and Greek Jews in particular, though that was always just speculation. What they say about Jews of "Iberian origin" makes little sense. Of course, if they're talking about Western Sephardim, partially descended from conversos who took on more Iberian admixture due to intermarriage in the 16th and 17th centuries, it makes sense that they would be more Iberian. I've argued before that the uneven rates of Iberian admixture among different subpopulations of North African and Eastern Sephardim could be partly related to the impact of absorption of later waves of Western Sephardic migrants, and you might see the same in some NW European Jewish communities. However, practically speaking I have no idea how you would isolate a population considered to be Jews of "Iberian origin". What does that even mean? Iberian crypto-Jewish populations are quite different autosomally from diasporic Sephardim, and the openly practicing Sephardic Jewish populations who reappeared in Iberia during the 19th century were mostly of Moroccan recent origins. Plus, this doesn't explain why some Turkish and Greek Jews continue to score over 90% Sephardic in 3.0, while others have seen their percentage drastically reduced. I can guarantee you that those Eastern Sephardim who continue to get high Sephardic scores are not 100% descended from Iberian Jews, and probably not any more so than their cousins who don't get such high scores in 3.0. I call BS on this (not shooting the messenger, though ;) ).

mokordo
10-20-2020, 04:04 PM
Improbable why? How do you measure if it's "good" or not? Why shouldn't this reference be fine when it's made by all available samples in G25, half of those are academic samples from HGDP, the other half are were used in academic studies and were donated from FMUP. There's nothing wrong with it.

The point of the example was just to show that naturally averages can be misinterpreted because the outputs can apparently seem quite obtuse, when in reality they are perfectly fine. Huijbregts made a similar example in his nMonte tutorial

Portuguese average it´s a perfect reference even for 80% of Spaniards,

I said improvable (mejorable in Spanish="que pode ser melhorado") not improbable/unlikely ("pouco provável").

I think all of you give too much credit to the adjective "academic".

Could you tell me for which study these samples were collected and from which part of Portugal they are all, as well as where their respective ancestors are from?

Maybe you know that information, not only "some of them were get through X Hospital in Y city and by Z institution".

Portugal needs more references by region, just one is not enough to include all your variety.

passenger
10-20-2020, 04:06 PM
Regarding your dad, and a similar question to what I asked jstephan, have you had a look at triangulating any Spanish matches that he gets?

I haven't looked into it that much. Although he's on AncestryDNA as well, I usually use MyHeritage to comb through matches, since I find it more user friendly in terms of searching by ethnicity and location, and for chromosome matching. As far as I can see, on MH he only has a handful of matches of primarily Iberian descent, and they only share tiny segments (6-8 cM) that don't triangulate with any others.

mokordo
10-20-2020, 07:12 PM
I don't say that science don't use probabilities in each methods that it use, all in science is probability and variables. We don't have the same point of view about this matter. I am not devaluating G25 as tool, I said it before, is a good method in fact, but is easier have a mistake with G25 fue to complexity of samples and flexibility when you make a model, than genetic genealogy, where there are a serial of points that you must follow, and it makes this method very reliable. So, I consider genetic genealogy as best tool to know far ancestry.

Both methods can be complementary, I never denied the utility of Global 25.

So we are agree, all the methods together offer a closer overview to reality.

Todavía no sé que estamos discutiendo.

Ruderico
10-20-2020, 07:31 PM
Portuguese average it´s a perfect reference even for 80% of Spaniards,

I said improvable (mejorable in Spanish="que pode ser melhorado") not improbable/unlikely ("pouco provável").

I think all of you give too much credit to the adjective "academic".

Could you tell me for which study these samples were collected and from which part of Portugal they are all, as well as where their respective ancestors are from?

Maybe you know that information, not only "some of them were get through X Hospital in Y city and by Z institution".

Portugal needs more references by region, just one is not enough to include all your variety.

Of course it is, Iberians don't vary that much from a European perspective, particularly if they are not Basque.

I can't tell you where exactly the samples are from, just that they are from FMUP. 'Academic' samples, on the other hand, especially from HGDP should theoretically have all their grandparents from the same country/region. But Portuguese results from region are pointless because the variation isn't as big as in Spain, be it in terms of co-ancestry or ancient components. Whatever the case that is outside the scope of this topic.

rober_tce
10-20-2020, 07:52 PM
So we are agree, all the methods together offer a closer overview to reality.

Todavía no sé que estamos discutiendo.

Agree with you about it :biggrin1: we are repeating similar things with different perspectivas.

Anyway, always is good exchanging knowledges, if of the discussion we can learn about these themes, is positive.

BalkanKiwi
10-20-2020, 08:12 PM
I thought I'd summarise what I've found so far in one post, putting it together.

1. Mother and grandfather score 2% and 3% Basque on myOrigins.
2. Iberian/Basque scored on G25 calculators and models.
3. 6 triangulated matches so far on chromosome 10, between 60-70M. All have varying amounts of Iberian, none have Jewish. Matches range from 9-11cM.

Given how far back this would be, I'm not surprised there aren't any matches over 15cM (that I've seen so far anyway).

jstephan
10-20-2020, 08:14 PM
No worries. I was just interested to know if those with only known Western Euro ancestry who score Iberian/Basque have had any success in identifying shared Iberian matches. The success of this would no doubt be hampered if someone only had a few Spanish matches to start with.

BalkanKiwi, I checked my Spanish matches on MyHeritage, I only have 3 Spanish matches, among which one has a French surname, and the segments I share with the 2 others are on different chromosomes, still My Heritage gives me 21.5% of Iberian.

BalkanKiwi
10-20-2020, 10:46 PM
BalkanKiwi, I checked my Spanish matches on MyHeritage, I only have 3 Spanish matches, among which one has a French surname, and the segments I share with the 2 others are on different chromosomes, still My Heritage gives me 21.5% of Iberian.

Thanks for taking the time to look. That's interesting and sounds like a similar situation to my wife. She scores 15% Iberian, but only has a few Spanish matches, but none appear to triangulate.

Out of interest for everyone, and because I like graphics and now that I've now found 10 triangulated matches on chromosome 10, I've gone and created a quick graphic that shows how much Iberian each match scores, shared segment length, and some info regarding the triangulated segment position itself. None of these matches score any Jewish.

https://i.imgur.com/qGqrPqp.png

BalkanKiwi
10-21-2020, 10:41 AM
As a follow on note to the above, I've discovered a few new matches that triangulated here that score some Ashkenazi, but no Iberian. Two of them are Dutch. I've also come across a triangulated Chilean and Argentinean (no Jewish). I will assume any Jewish matches that triangulate here are due to a common Iberian ancestor, similarly to what Ruderico has suggested.

rober_tce
10-21-2020, 04:44 PM
Thanks for taking the time to look. That's interesting and sounds like a similar situation to my wife. She scores 15% Iberian, but only has a few Spanish matches, but none appear to triangulate.

Out of interest for everyone, and because I like graphics and now that I've now found 10 triangulated matches on chromosome 10, I've gone and created a quick graphic that shows how much Iberian each match scores, shared segment length, and some info regarding the triangulated segment position itself. None of these matches score any Jewish.

https://i.imgur.com/qGqrPqp.png


As a follow on note to the above, I've discovered a few new matches that triangulated here that score some Ashkenazi, but no Iberian. Two of them are Dutch. I've also come across a triangulated Chilean and Argentinean (no Jewish). I will assume any Jewish matches that triangulate here are due to a common Iberian ancestor, similarly to what Ruderico has suggested.

I think is clear even more that the ancestor in common of this segment inherited is iberian. The triangulation is succesful and the work way is correct. Refered to the few jewish matches grouped in this segment, is perfectly possible that they may have an iberian common ancestor.

BalkanKiwi
10-21-2020, 11:17 PM
I think is clear even more that the ancestor in common of this segment inherited is iberian. The triangulation is succesful and the work way is correct. Refered to the few jewish matches grouped in this segment, is perfectly possible that they may have an iberian common ancestor.

I should list, and will do so in case this helps anyone in the future who comes across this post, the 3 main percentages for the Argentinian and Chilean matches who triangulate.

Argentinian match - 60.7% Iberian, 17.2% Mesoamerican and Andean, 9.9% Middle Eastern.

Chilean match - 54.1% Mesoamerican and Andean, 19.2% Scandinavian, 18.1% Sardinian (doesn't score any Iberian).

Interestingly, myself, my mother and sister don't match any of the matches on this triangulated segment. It might be a similar situation to my grandmother, who is the only person who matches with Polynesians, as myself, my mother and sister don't.

Perhaps we didn't inherit this Iberian segment, and my grandfather is the last person who did.

rober_tce
10-22-2020, 12:44 AM
I should list, and will do so in case this helps anyone in the future who comes across this post, the 3 main percentages for the Argentinian and Chilean matches who triangulate.

Argentinian match - 60.7% Iberian, 17.2% Mesoamerican and Andean, 9.9% Middle Eastern.

Chilean match - 54.1% Mesoamerican and Andean, 19.2% Scandinavian, 18.1% Sardinian (doesn't score any Iberian).

Interestingly, myself, my mother and sister don't match any of the matches on this triangulated segment. It might be a similar situation to my grandmother, who is the only person who matches with Polynesians, as myself, my mother and sister don't.

Perhaps we didn't inherit this Iberian segment, and my grandfather is the last person who did.

So, I understand reading your post, these matches triangulate with other matches in common with you, but you don't triangulate with them, don't you? I assume that in chr. 10 you have iberian matches that triangulate with you, except these last, correct?

BalkanKiwi
10-22-2020, 12:58 AM
So, I understand reading your post, these matches triangulate with other matches in common with you, but you don't triangulate with them, don't you? I assume that in chr. 10 you have iberian matches that triangulate with you, except these last, correct?


Sorry, I should have typed that more clearly. The Argentinian match and Chilean match both triangulate with all of the above Iberian matches on chromosome 10. Including the Argentinian and Chilean, and the ones I listed in the graphic above, I've now found in total around 15 matches who triangulate on chromosome 10 along that Iberian segment. They all triangulate with my grandfather, however none of them are DNA matches to me, my mother or sister.

rober_tce
10-22-2020, 07:41 PM
Sorry, I should have typed that more clearly. The Argentinian match and Chilean match both triangulate with all of the above Iberian matches on chromosome 10. Including the Argentinian and Chilean, and the ones I listed in the graphic above, I've now found in total around 15 matches who triangulate on chromosome 10 along that Iberian segment. They all triangulate with my grandfather, however none of them are DNA matches to me, my mother or sister.

Then this iberian segment is inherited by your grandfather, and in next generations has disappeared, this occure many times. In each generation we lose genetic information.

BalkanKiwi
10-25-2020, 05:28 AM
I thought I'd post an update. I've used Triangulation and Segment Search on GEDMatch to see how many more matches I can find here. So far I've found 35 matches along this segment, 3 of them are also on MyHeritage and were the initial ones I've found, including the Argentinian. As you can see, not all of the kits match each other, but I've included them anyway because they match most kits, and appear to be South Americans or Spaniards.

I've run a number of these kits through Eurogenes K13, and many appear to have Ashkenazi or Sephardic ancestry, a few look like typical Western Europeans, and a few have noticeable amounts of Amerindian. There's even a few Eastern Europeans in here as well it seems (Russians/Ukrainians).

As we all match along a segment that is mostly Baltic and North Atlantic with minor West Med, I'm more convinced that we all share a common Iberian ancestor, and these matches probably inherited the Jewish from elsewhere. My grandfather matches a few of them on other chromosomes, which I suspect could be along Ashkenazi segments.

https://i.imgur.com/bYE1fKP.jpg

rober_tce
10-25-2020, 07:22 AM
There are many triangulated matches as can I see. I agree with you, this segment must be iberian with origin in a common iberian ancestor, in addition Baltic+North Atlantic+West Med indicates european/iberian segment. Respect to jewish pairing up, I still think that may these jewish matches have the same iberian ancestor if they are in this segment.

BalkanKiwi
10-25-2020, 08:34 AM
There are many triangulated matches as can I see. I agree with you, this segment must be iberian with origin in a common iberian ancestor, in addition Baltic+North Atlantic+West Med indicates european/iberian segment. Respect to jewish pairing up, I still think that may these jewish matches have the same iberian ancestor if they are in this segment.

Agreed. I'm curious how some of the Eastern European matches ended up with an Iberian ancestor (Russians etc), as I assume this Iberian ancestor was from Spain between 800-1000 years ago. Perhaps the ancestry went into France and then made its way over time through Eastern Europe.

Out of interest, here are the Eurogenes K13 results of one of the matches who I assume is Mexican/Spanish/South American? judging by their surname. I've posted only the first 5 populations to maintain their privacy. This is a 7.6cM match.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Amerindian 40.70
2 North_Atlantic 22.11
3 West_Med 13.87
4 Sub-Saharan 6.19
5 West_Asian 3.73

rober_tce
10-25-2020, 09:00 AM
Agreed. I'm curious how some of the Eastern European matches ended up with an Iberian ancestor (Russians etc), as I assume this Iberian ancestor was from Spain between 800-1000 years ago. Perhaps the ancestry went into France and then made its way over time through Eastern Europe.

Out of interest, here are the Eurogenes K13 results of one of the matches who I assume is Mexican/Spanish/South American? judging by their surname. I've posted only the first 5 populations to maintain their privacy. This is a 7.6cM match.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Amerindian 40.70
2 North_Atlantic 22.11
3 West_Med 13.87
4 Sub-Saharan 6.19
5 West_Asian 3.73

There isn't iberian christians migrations documented to Europe, but in Middle Age it could there be some kind of particular migrators from Castille or Aragon, even I see more probably that they were of Aragon, in Late Middle Age they moved more through Mediterranean or south France than their neighbours.

Shadogowah
10-25-2020, 09:26 AM
There isn't iberian christians migrations documented to Europe, but in Middle Age it could there be some kind of particular migrators from Castille or Aragon, even I see more probably that they were of Aragon, in Late Middle Age they moved more through Mediterranean or south France than their neighbours.

I'll bet 50 eurs they are Spanish and Portuguese jews that settled originally in Poland.

I have a Z225 match that happens to be Polish. Our common ancestor was clearly Iberian. He was totally unaware of having any sephardic ancestry in his patrilineal lineage.

BalkanKiwi
10-25-2020, 11:11 AM
I'll bet 50 eurs they are Spanish and Portuguese jews that settled originally in Poland.

I have a Z225 match that happens to be Polish. Our common ancestor was clearly Iberian. He was totally unaware of having any sephardic ancestry in his patrilineal lineage.

That's interesting. He probably wasn't expecting to find out he had an Iberian ancestor being Polish. I certainly wasn't expecting to find Iberian matches, so now I should brush up on my Spanish (kidding of course, however I do enjoy watching La Liga).

It sounds like Sephardi ancestry made its way east. It's a shame we will never be able to put a name to such an ancestor and know their story.

rober_tce
10-25-2020, 11:27 AM
I'll bet 50 eurs they are Spanish and Portuguese jews that settled originally in Poland.

I have a Z225 match that happens to be Polish. Our common ancestor was clearly Iberian. He was totally unaware of having any sephardic ancestry in his patrilineal lineage.


That's interesting. He probably wasn't expecting to find out he had an Iberian ancestor being Polish. I certainly wasn't expecting to find Iberian matches, so now I should brush up on my Spanish (kidding of course, however I do enjoy watching La Liga).

It sounds like Sephardi ancestry made its way east. It's a shame we will never be able to put a name to such an ancestor and know their story.

There are some posts of Kevin Brook in Khazaria.com about Sephardim migrations to East Europe and their admixture with Ashkenazim. Highly recommended.

Shadogowah
10-25-2020, 12:06 PM
That's interesting. He probably wasn't expecting to find out he had an Iberian ancestor being Polish. I certainly wasn't expecting to find Iberian matches, so now I should brush up on my Spanish (kidding of course, however I do enjoy watching La Liga).

It sounds like Sephardi ancestry made its way east. It's a shame we will never be able to put a name to such an ancestor and know their story.

Let me put it this way:

Prior to the Alhambra decree, Spain was home of the most populous Jewish community in Europe (It is common knowledge that Jews were expelled from Spain but it is plainly ignored that before that, they had been expelled from England, France and many other kingdoms and from there, they end up in Spain). Spain had become a shelter for Western Jews and despite Christian antisemitism, they enjoyed certain periods of "tolerance" that were unknown to their Ashkenazi cousins.

After the Alhambra decree, many fled to North Africa and Ottoman controlled territories, others made their way to Amsterdam but many end up in Warsaw and Krakow. In a few decades, Poland became the European nation with the highest number of Jews living within its borders.

My Polish match was well aware of his Jew ancestry (mostly Ashkenazi) and he knew there was a sephardic relative on a maternal lateral branch. But he was indeed unaware that he could belong to a sephardic patrilineal lineage.

Based on his family lore, his ancestor came from England. I ignore if England was indeed the origin or most likely an intermediate stop in the journey as it seems to have been the case for other matches that trace their origin to Portuguese Jews.

But the truth is that our branch in the haplogroup tree is 99% Iberian and he was the only exception.