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shearsofatropos
10-18-2020, 06:40 PM
Hello everyone,

I am interested in hearing more from users who have, or, alternatively, who are more knowledgeable, about my mtDNA haplogroup: U5b1d1b.

One thing I am particularly curious about is the origin of my lineage. Eupedia.com states that 'U5b1d1b is found in Italy and Siberia' and that U5b is most commonly found in northern Spain.

My family history does not exactly correlate with the first half of the information from Eupedia.com: my maternal grandmother's side is Irish (from Connacht), not Italy and/or Siberia.

However, my family history does potentially align with U5b more generally (as there is compelling evidence that humans migrated from Northern Spain to Ireland Ireland about 8,000 years ago).

For those interested, my RSRS values are as follows:

Extra Mutations 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C 8278.1C 8278.2C 8278.3C C13947T A16037G C16218T C16519T
Missing Mutations C16192T

Again, any insight from either users with my haplogroup lineage, or from users who are more knowledgeable about the subject in general, would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

J1 DYS388=13
10-18-2020, 07:44 PM
Me again. The oldest known example of U5b1d1b is from the Bell Beaker Culture in Hungary, c2500-2200 BC (academic paper Olalde Nature 2018). With no known earlier examples of U5b1d1b, one explanation for you is that your maternal line arrived in Ireland with the Bronze Age people who largely replaced the earlier Neolithic people. But U5b1 was already in Ireland before the Bronze Age. A Neolithic skeleton with U5b1 was actually found in the grand tomb at Newgrange. It is very unlikely that U5b1d1b descended from a line in what is now Ireland and back-migrated to Hungary, so a Bronze Age arrival for your line still seems most likely. Further back in time, two examples of U5b1d1b's parent line U5b1d1 have been found, both from Germany, one from 8,370-8160 years ago and the other from 8,430-8,060 years ago (source embargoed PhD thesis by Lara Cassidy). U5 and its branches is the only known mtDNA type from Mesolithic Western Europe.

J1 DYS388=13
10-18-2020, 07:59 PM
Eight modern cases of U5b1d1b including two Irish cases can be seen at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/U5b_FGS?iframe=mtresults. Set page size to 9999 to see all the cases. I always have to repeat the page size 9999 action to get it to work.

shearsofatropos
10-19-2020, 09:13 AM
Me again. The oldest known example of U5b1d1b is from the Bell Beaker Culture in Hungary, c2500-2200 BC (academic paper Olalde Nature 2018). With no known earlier examples of U5b1d1b, one explanation for you is that your maternal line arrived in Ireland with the Bronze Age people who largely replaced the earlier Neolithic people. But U5b1 was already in Ireland before the Bronze Age. A Neolithic skeleton with U5b1 was actually found in the grand tomb at Newgrange. It is very unlikely that U5b1d1b descended from a line in what is now Ireland and back-migrated to Hungary, so a Bronze Age arrival for your line still seems most likely. Further back in time, two examples of U5b1d1b's parent line U5b1d1 have been found, both from Germany, one from 8,370-8160 years ago and the other from 8,430-8,060 years ago (source embargoed PhD thesis by Lara Cassidy). U5 and its branches is the only known mtDNA type from Mesolithic Western Europe.

Thank you so much for all of your help. I also especially want to thank you for the PhD thesis source - I will be checking Google Scholar to see if I can find it ASAP. Additionally, per your other reply: I struggled with the search analytics on FamilyTree, so your tip (repeating the page size 9999 action) is very useful to me. Thank you again!

GailT
10-20-2020, 04:31 AM
I'm a volunteer admin for the U5 project and I just placed you in U5b1d1b* Group 1a. As J1 mentioned, this group includes several people from Ireland and England. The Russian and Italian samples are sister clades that are very distantly related, so probably not relevant. Based on the ancient samples in Germany, it seems likely that U5b1d1 originated in Mesolithic Europe and that its daughter clades spread from there. Your extra HVR1 mutation A16037G is unique among the project members, so I would also recommend checking your HVR1 match list. Any HVR1 matches are likely to be very close matches in the full sequence and more recently related to you than other members of Group 1a.

shearsofatropos
12-02-2020, 06:27 PM
Thank you GailT! Apologies for the delayed reply. Interesting to see that my A16037G mutation is unique! Does this mean it is rather new, too? I have read in academic literature that there is a Caucasus-related component feature in Irish Bronze age ancestry-I wonder if this is connected at all. Thank you again for your help!

shearsofatropos
12-02-2020, 06:29 PM
Thank you GailT! Apologies for the delayed reply. Interesting to see that my A16037G mutation is unique! Does this mean it is rather new, too? I have read in academic literature that there is a Caucasus-related component feature in Irish Bronze age ancestry-I wonder if this is connected at all. Thank you again for your help!

GailT
12-03-2020, 05:23 AM
Yes, relatively recent, but given the slow mutation rate for mtDNA, "recent" could be between approximately 1 to 40 generations ago. I don't know about a possible "Caucasus-related component feature in Irish Bronze age ancestry" - there is a lot of speculation out there, so I would verify if it is from a reliable source, but in any case, that would be more relevant to autosomal DNA. Your mtDNA represents only your direct maternal lineage, and the maternal line contributes a very small portion of your autosomal DNA if you go back many generations. So the mtDNA results only tell you that your maternal line originated in Mesolithic European hunter gatherers.

shearsofatropos
12-08-2020, 04:08 PM
Understood. I got the Caucasus-related component data from an academic article (citation and link is below). Dr. Lara Cassidy has done a lot of work on Neolithic and Bronze Age genetics in Ireland. A quote from the article, as it is also relevant to the U haplogroup:

The Bronze Age [male] individuals belonged to the haplogroups U5 and J2b. Notably, the three Bronze Age males each belong to the Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1a2a1a2c (SI Appendix, Section S8). This lineage is characterized by a modern east–west frequency gradient in the British Isles, and is almost fixed (94%) in the West of Ireland (19, 20). R1b haplotypes have been argued as first appearing with steppe incursion in the central European Bronze Age (9).

Thank you for all of your insight and your patience!

Neolithic and Bronze Age ancient Irish genomes
Lara M. Cassidy, Rui Martiniano, Eileen M. Murphy, Matthew D. Teasdale, James Mallory, Barrie Hartwell, Daniel G. Bradley
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Jan 2016, 113 (2) 368-373; DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1518445113
https://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368

Rufus191
04-16-2021, 10:36 AM
Me again. The oldest known example of U5b1d1b is from the Bell Beaker Culture in Hungary, c2500-2200 BC (academic paper Olalde Nature 2018). With no known earlier examples of U5b1d1b, one explanation for you is that your maternal line arrived in Ireland with the Bronze Age people who largely replaced the earlier Neolithic people. But U5b1 was already in Ireland before the Bronze Age. A Neolithic skeleton with U5b1 was actually found in the grand tomb at Newgrange. It is very unlikely that U5b1d1b descended from a line in what is now Ireland and back-migrated to Hungary, so a Bronze Age arrival for your line still seems most likely. Further back in time, two examples of U5b1d1b's parent line U5b1d1 have been found, both from Germany, one from 8,370-8160 years ago and the other from 8,430-8,060 years ago (source embargoed PhD thesis by Lara Cassidy). U5 and its branches is the only known mtDNA type from Mesolithic Western Europe.
I don't know whether you know, but Cheddar Man, a mesolithic hunter gatherer found in a south west England cave was found to be U5b1 from recent Natural History Museum Research. Older outdated methods erroneously attributed him to the U5a group.

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/our-work/origins-evolution-and-futures/human-adaptation-diet-disease/cheddar-man-faq.html

My own line is U5b1d and traces not too far from Cheddar, to the Dorset-Hampshire border in the 18th c. However, Dr. Tom Booth says it looks like Cheddar Man and his close relatives were either wiped out, outbred or outnumbered by the incoming Neolithic farmers as they were completely different autosomely. However it stills seems possible some mesolithic women were taken by these incoming peoples and his maternal line survived.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5hZBvD7sbU


https://youtu.be/h5hZBvD7sbU?t=1750 comment where Dr. Booth states there wasn't much mixing of the Neolithic farmers and the mesolithic peoples in Britain, but there was some , most in western Scotland

GailT
04-19-2021, 10:02 PM
My own line is U5b1d and traces not too far from Cheddar, to the Dorset-Hampshire border in the 18th c.

It should be possible to identify a more specific subclade of U5b1d. If you tested at 23andMe you can upload your results to James Lick's mthap webtool to see if any extra mutations were found that identify a more specific subclade.

Rufus191
04-20-2021, 09:45 AM
It should be possible to identify a more specific subclade of U5b1d. If you tested at 23andMe you can upload your results to James Lick's mthap webtool to see if any extra mutations were found that identify a more specific subclade.

Yes I did this a few days ago

1) U5b1d1

Defining Markers for haplogroup U5b1d1:
HVR2: 73G 150T 263G
CR: 750G 1438G 2706G 3197C 4769G 5437T 5656G 7028T 7768G 8860G 9477A 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A 13617C 14182C 14766T 15326G 15721C
HVR1: 16192T 16270T

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup U5b1d1 (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 11467G 12308G 12372A ⇨ U ⇨ 16192T 16270T ⇨ U5 ⇨ 3197C 9477A 13617C ⇨ U5a'b ⇨ 150T 7768G 14182C ⇨ U5b ⇨ 5656G ⇨ U5b1 ⇨ 5437T ⇨ U5b1d ⇨ 15721C ⇨ U5b1d1 ⇨ 65D 191D 299D 459D 2074I 2156D 2405D 3307D 4317I 5537D 5752D 6689T 7471D 8281D 8286D 14482T

Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
Matches(16): 73G 263G 1438G 2706G 3197C 5656G 7028T 8860G 9477A 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A 13617C 14182C 15721C
Extras(16): 65D 191D 299D 459D 2074I 2156D 2405D 3307D 4317I 5537D 5752D 6689T 7471D 8281D 8286D 14482T
No-Calls(2): 5437T 16270T
Untested(7): 150 750 4769 7768 14766 15326 16192

Rufus191
04-21-2021, 09:49 AM
It should be possible to identify a more specific subclade of U5b1d. If you tested at 23andMe you can upload your results to James Lick's mthap webtool to see if any extra mutations were found that identify a more specific subclade.
I am not sure if the 23andme data is sufficient for the U5 project, but if it is, my furthest traced ancestor is Elizabeth Warne b. abt 1748 in Ringwood, Hampshire. I guess I may be an unknown new subclade as I seem to have a lot of extras not listed on any current U5b1d1 subclade?

GailT
04-21-2021, 09:28 PM
I am not sure if the 23andme data is sufficient for the U5 project, but if it is, my furthest traced ancestor is Elizabeth Warne b. abt 1748 in Ringwood, Hampshire. I guess I may be an unknown new subclade as I seem to have a lot of extras not listed on any current U5b1d1 subclade?

Most of the extras listed are deletions which probably reflect the incomplete 23adnMe results. The one significant extra is 14482T, and this is unique among the existing U5b1d1 test results. U5b1d1 has three named subclades, and you can see the defining mutations for each subclade at Phylotree (https://www.phylotree.org/tree/U.htm). You would need to test the full sequence to see if you are in one of the named subclades.

Rufus191
04-22-2021, 07:43 PM
Most of the extras listed are deletions which probably reflect the incomplete 23adnMe results. The one significant extra is 14482T, and this is unique among the existing U5b1d1 test results. U5b1d1 has three named subclades, and you can see the defining mutations for each subclade at Phylotree (https://www.phylotree.org/tree/U.htm). You would need to test the full sequence to see if you are in one of the named subclades.
Thanks for having a look at my results:). I am considering getting a FTDNA test (it seems to be on sale until the 25th).

GailT
04-23-2021, 03:04 AM
Thanks for having a look at my results:). I am considering getting a FTDNA test (it seems to be on sale until the 25th).

mtDNA has a slow average mutation rate, so matches might share a most recent common maternal ancestor between 1 to more than 100 generations ago, so the results might not be very useful for genealogy, but in some rare cases they are useful, especially for confirming a suspected maternal line relationship. But it's still fun finding out exactly where you fit in the mtDNA Phylotree. :)

Rufus191
04-23-2021, 10:04 AM
mtDNA has a slow average mutation rate, so matches might share a most recent common maternal ancestor between 1 to more than 100 generations ago, so the results might not be very useful for genealogy, but in some rare cases they are useful, especially for confirming a suspected maternal line relationship. But it's still fun finding out exactly where you fit in the mtDNA Phylotree. :)
Oh yes I'm aware :). I guess I find it more interesting as U5b1d seems a lot more unusual according to 23andme - 1 in 790 of 23andme customers, rather than U5a1a1 which is supposedly 1 in 100 of 23andme customers. It would be interesting to know if we knew what the 23andme stats were for all haplogroups, maybe someone has put that together? I know there are tables by country on eupedia for MTDNA haplogroups, but I don't know how accurate they are or what data they are based on?

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_mtdna_haplogroups_frequency.shtml

I wonder if it is possible to find more detailed subclade information for Cheddar Man? I think someone uploaded his data to GEDMATCH but I am not sure you can get all the mutations from that
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/41222-Cheddar-Man-and-Me?p=621302&viewfull=1#post621302

corner
04-23-2021, 06:33 PM
mtDNA has a slow average mutation rate, so matches might share a most recent common maternal ancestor between 1 to more than 100 generations ago, so the results might not be very useful for genealogy, but in some rare cases they are useful, especially for confirming a suspected maternal line relationship. But it's still fun finding out exactly where you fit in the mtDNA Phylotree. :)It is and it's good to find this interesting thread. I gather from a Living DNA test recently that my maternal line is U5b1d1c. Their information says it is found in highest frequency among the Scandinavian Saami and the coverage map shows that concentration in the far north of Europe.

Saami 47%
Finland 18%
Basque 15.4%
France 2.2%
In 10th place is England 1.4%

Their narrative suggests it spent the Ice Age in the Franco-Cantabrian refugia and followed the retreating ice sheets northwards.

Rufus191
04-23-2021, 08:24 PM
It is and it's good to find this interesting thread. I gather from a Living DNA test recently that my maternal line is U5b1d1c. Their information says it is found in highest frequency among the Scandinavian Saami and the coverage map shows that concentration in the far north of Europe.

Saami 47%
Finland 18%
Basque 15.4%
France 2.2%
In 10th place is England 1.4%

Their narrative suggests it spent the Ice Age in the Franco-Cantabrian refugia and followed the retreating ice sheets northwards.
I wouldn't necessarily rely on what the commercial DNA sites say for the most accurate data. Although it is true the Saami have the highest % of U5 in the whole world, their subclade is almost exclusively U5b1b1a

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_U5_mtDNA.shtml#subclades
https://www.academia.edu/6212881/Origins_and_history_of_Haplogroup_U5_mtDNA_

It would be interesting to know if anyone has tried to map out the various U5 subclades in a map of the British Isles. It seems possible to me that U5a1a1 came over with Indo European Yamnaya migrations, and the U5b1d and subclades may be remnants of the female lines of the Neolithic farmers, who maybe in turn took some of those females from the mesolithic hunter gatherer "Cheddar Man" populations. Maybe you might see U5b1d and subclades in the more 'celtic ' areas of the British Isles where there was slightly less Anglo Saxon dominance i.e. in the far west of England, northern areas, Wales, north and west Scotland, west and north west Ireland etc.

corner
04-23-2021, 08:47 PM
I wouldn't necessarily rely on what the commercial DNA sites say for the most accurate data. Although it is true the Saami have the highest % of U5 in the whole world, their subclade is almost exclusively U5b1b1a

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_U5_mtDNA.shtml#subclades
https://www.academia.edu/6212881/Origins_and_history_of_Haplogroup_U5_mtDNA_

It would be interesting to know if anyone has tried to map out the various U5 subclades in a map of the British Isles. It seems possible to me that U5a1a1 came over with Indo European Yamnaya migrations, and the U5b1d and subclades may be remnants of the female lines of the Neolithic farmers, who maybe in turn took some of those females from the mesolithic hunter gatherer "Cheddar Man" populations. Maybe you might see U5b1d and subclades in the more 'celtic ' areas of the British Isles where there was slightly less Anglo Saxon dominance i.e. in the far west of England, northern areas, Wales, north and west Scotland, west and north west Ireland etc.Yes, it looks like a broad brush description. I haven't found much about U5b1d1c specifically. FTDNA Haplotree (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt-dna-haplotree/U;name=U5b1d1c) has 16 kits or 33.33% from England, 9 kits or 18.75% Ireland, 2 from Wales, 1 each from Germany, Slovakia, Scotland, France, Hungary.

GailT
04-24-2021, 12:34 AM
I wouldn't necessarily rely on what the commercial DNA sites say for the most accurate data. Although it is true the Saami have the highest % of U5 in the whole world, their subclade is almost exclusively U5b1b1a.

Yes, that is an important point. U5b is estimated to be about 27,000 years old, so you really need to look at specific subclades of U5b when making statements about origins and population frequencies.

I summarized the results of U5 full sequence in GenBank and the FTDNA U5 project here: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/u-5b/about/results

This needs to be updated with more recent results. I didn't mention U5b1d1c specifically on the project summary page, but we now have 20 full sequence U5b1d1c samples, mostly from England, Ireland, Wales and France. Of the 20 samples, 19 share an extra mutation at marker 7912, and I have an age estimate of about 3000 years for the subgroup with 7912.

I'm guessing that U5b1d1c was a hunter-gatherer remnant that was incorporated into a Neolithic or Bronze age pre-Celtic population (based on its absence in more typically Germanic regions). U5b1d1a and U5b1d1b are more strongly associated with Germanic regions including Scandinavia and Russia. There are also two Mesolithic ancient U5b1d1 samples from Germany, dated about 8200 years before present.

Rufus191
07-30-2021, 05:49 PM
mtDNA has a slow average mutation rate, so matches might share a most recent common maternal ancestor between 1 to more than 100 generations ago, so the results might not be very useful for genealogy, but in some rare cases they are useful, especially for confirming a suspected maternal line relationship. But it's still fun finding out exactly where you fit in the mtDNA Phylotree. :)
I have received my FTDNA results - unfortunately they can't identify any more specific group than U5b1d1, which is what the James Lick tool predicted. I can share my results with you in more detail if you would like to add it to the U5 project:).